Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I respect the ability to learn and use Assembler too. I don't think its a question of respect. There cannot be a good programer if he hasn't learn some assembly some time in his life. Only machine language will teach you how a machine works, and this is an essential basis in order to understand how to optimize code. If you only learn high level languages, you're missing the essentials. Its like flying an airplane without having elementary basics in aerodynamics. I started my career on a machine that had 56k memory, at 1 MHz, I can tell you Assembler was a must, even if we had FORTRAN at that time. Now, when I hear yellow feet talking about OOP technology that helps RE-use code, it makes me laugh ;-)) -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237339 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Mike... Please make sure to post that article when it's done. I'm in your boat, I don't really get the whole OO thing yet, but I'd like to at least give it a fair shake. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:20 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions I'm preparing an article for http://afpwebworks.com about OO techniques written for people like I was - who dont 'get it' yet and find the language used by OO afficianados difficult to fathom. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237347 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I'm both as well. I started as a designer who wanted more control over my websites. !//-- andy matthews web developer ICGLink, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 615.370.1530 x737 --//- -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Generally web developers are not designers and vice versa, it's usually two separate jobs. Of course I'm not saying that is a rule set in stone, as some people are both, myself included. -Original Message- From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions On 4/7/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ It's Saturday so I'm giving my diplomacy a day off - with the exception of the last phrase, that's a really piss poor statement. I do like the last part though - who the hell wants an average web developer working on their job? I want the best people I can find working with me. And if you look around, the best CF folks have gravitated towards a framework (even Simon, with his anti-framework frame...errr..methodology ;) ). There's probably a reason for this: Responsible, mature developers understand that different toolsets are appropriate for different types of work. If you're going to back a simple one-page contact form with Model-Glue (or Mach-II), it's rather like cutting butter with a chainsaw - it might be kind of fun, but messy in the end. Those of us who have moved forward and gone past the simple CRUD list / detail view apps of 1999 require tools that properly separate business logic from presentation, meaning that you could never simply open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it - unless you wanted to have to duplicate the same logic across every other page / service / API / interface that needed to utilize it. Model-Glue, Mach-II, and MVC Fusebox are such tools. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's a piss-poor example (sorry to use the phrase again, but it's just so on-target for this thread). If I wrote a book in French and than gave it to an English-only proofreader, it's likely that the result would be bad. That's pretty much what you did, taking an MG/OO app and giving it to another developer. If it's just a simple test site, zip it up and send it over to me, I'd be happy to take a look/make pointers. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue Model-Glue is a *very* simple framework. It even has some built-in limitations where I chose simplicity over power. Where people goof is when they try to make things more complex than they need to be. Heck, you ever seen Struts? Now there's a world of pain... ... So, are frameworks like MG/M2/FB necessary for a simple web app? No, of course not. Is writing simple web apps going to be enough to keep developers competitive and employed as we move into a world where the same app must be web, mobile, RIA/Flex/Ajax, and provide a headless API? Probably not. Frameworks like MG/M2/FB are simply tools good developers - those members of the development community who do work that's moved past writing the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager - will recognize as being appropriate for Web-based presentation of applications that are reusable for multiple clients mediums. If there's a sector of the web/ColdFusion community who never wants to move past the CF5 mentality, or wants to continue writing spaghetti open one page in dreamweaver code, I'm more than happy to let you be, because I don't want to deal with that type of work or application ever again. To be fair, please realize that there's another section of the same community that does work that requires tools like MVC frameworks, and we're not using/creating them just to make your lives miserable; there's no reason to accuse us of overcomplicating your lives just because you don't get our tools. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237350 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Holy cow! Now I know why I don't read CF-Talk on the weekends. ;) This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237349 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
LOL I hear you...maybe this thread can be resolved with all partied at CFUNITED? ;-) -Original Message- From: Munson, Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 April 2006 16:22 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Holy cow! Now I know why I don't read CF-Talk on the weekends. ;) This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237352 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
You trying to instigate crowd violence :) -- Timothy Heald Analyst, Architect, Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: 202-228-8372 C: 703-300-3911 -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:26 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions LOL I hear you...maybe this thread can be resolved with all partied at CFUNITED? ;-) -Original Message- From: Munson, Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 April 2006 16:22 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Holy cow! Now I know why I don't read CF-Talk on the weekends. ;) This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. A1. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237357 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I respect the ability to learn and use Assembler too. I don't think its a question of respect. There cannot be a good programer if he hasn't learn some assembly some time in his life. Only machine language will teach you how a machine works, and this is an essential basis in order to understand how to optimize code. If you only learn high level languages, you're missing the essentials. Its like flying an airplane without having elementary basics in aerodynamics. I would say it's more like flying a plane without being a mechanic, which I believe is true of a lot of pilots. Aerodynamics is theory and you can understand the theory without personally tightening bolts on the engine. I started my career on a machine that had 56k memory, at 1 MHz, I can tell you Assembler was a must, even if we had FORTRAN at that time. Now, when I hear yellow feet talking about OOP technology that helps RE-use code, it makes me laugh ;-)) Things have changed a lot in the intervening years, and continue to change. The nature of technology is such that the passage of time will always degrade the importance of optimization. We are currently at a point where optimization is still important, but not nearly so much so as it was ten or twenty years ago. Case in point, we now use 4 digits in our dates. By comparison, the human factors involved in software development and maintenance are not going away -- not now, not ever. An application which is slow today will be indistinguishable (by humans) from an optimized version of the same application in 20 years. An application which is difficult to maintain now will be difficult to maintain in 20 years. So a person's understanding of extreme low-level concepts like deferred writes will continue to be less important as compared to a person's understanding of high-level concepts like encapsulation and syntactical extensibility which will continue to become more important as the hardware supports increasingly less optimized code (allowing increasingly more abstraction) with humanly indistinguishable efficiency. I'm not familiar with the expression yellow feet. Wikipedia and dictionary.com don't produce any results. My best guess would be that it means either someone who's an amateur or someone who's afraid of a challenge. In either case, I'd have a look at the rule-manager components I designed before you make that kind of judgement. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237388 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Are you the most arrgant person in bizzaroworld, or is everyone like you ? -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:15:00 -0400 Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. I know plenty of people who do not comply to the *Isaac Dealey* way of thinking, and they all have very good jobs, oh wait, so do I, now how did that happen? You got yourselves into a vanishing niche while there was still room for new people to enter that space. As the years progress, your current niche will continue to dwindle. It will of course never completely vanish, however, if you don't stretch yourself you'll have to live with the value of your skills diminishing as the skill-sets of other more agressive developers continue to evolve. More advanced developers will bring the price of their skills down until it becomes accessible to your clients, at which point it will start to devalue your skill set. This is all very basic economics. Here's another analogy. America, the land of the free -- and here at one point in time, farming was one of those american dreams wherein a person could have the land and the life they wanted. Not so much anymore because large corporate agro-businesses have pretty well taken over the agricultural market. Today's farmers are doing well to be surviving, _IF_ they survive against the competition of corporate agro-business. A large number of the farmers who are still surviving have joined co-operative farming groups in order to help themselves compete in what is a vanishing niche for them. The difference with us is that every single one of us has the ability to choose to be that person who is continually becoming, by stretching ourselves to learn new things and make ourselves more valuable. So while there's very little a farmer can do about their vanishing niche, asside from stop farming, we can all choose to stay in our current field of work by adapting our niche. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237283 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Well Isaac as I keep saying, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And mine is that your the one who will be left fishing for scraps, because I can't see many companies giving a job to someone like you who is so arrogant and living with his head up his own ass and thinks everyone is below him. Most big companie shave their own set of standards, and refusing to adhere by them and telling your employers they are stupid idiots for not agreeing with you really wont do u any favours. A solid understanding of life and people and how to get on with them is required in the real world, something you appear to lack. Your probably to be one of those bedroom coders who can't get on with anyone or anything so just keeps to himself and locks himself in a dark room where he doesn't have to meet people and risk getting beaten up cozz you cannot help but insult them. I feel sorry for you really. Russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:50:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions I know very few CF developers who know JAVA, that mostly stems form people who were programmers before learning CF or have a programming background, so I think your putting yourself down there if you think you're the only one who doesn't do it, in fact the majority of the people on this very list don't do Java. I also know many freelance developer and development companies who do high profile government work and work for very large/rich organisations, and no ne of them use any OO frameworks, most of them use their own or fusebox. And they are certainly not picking up scraps. Sure, there are lots of people who are doing well in that niche today, and there will be tomorrow, but there are fewer of them every year. We work in an environment of planned obsolescence -- we create new things, knowing very well that they will be supplanted in years to come. This is the nature of programming. A good developer needs to be constantly becoming, otherwise you have to face the fact that if you don't continue to learn, your skill is gradually devalued by simple economics and your niche disappears. I struggle with this myself actually, because it's the one thing I really dislike about programming work, the knowledge that what I do today will be basically irrelevant in a few years time, as compared to the works of philosophers and artists which are as valuable today as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago. I would like to think that the work of my hand would have lasting meaning, but I have to accept that programming work is not, no matter how innovative or productive it may be. It really depends if you job requires any of these things as to whether you spend time learning it. I would love to have the time to sit down and properly learn Java, .NET, every other framework, but alas I don't even have time to spend posting on these lists very often as I work hard, I only get to do it at the evening and on weekends. Once upon a time I used to be one of the people that was on the list all day answering everyones questions instead of working ;-) A solid understanding of OO principals, encapsulation and extensibility are key elements to my having extra time to spend being an Adobe Community Expert and helping people learn new things. The rule manager article I contributed to a recent issue of CFDJ and later presented at cf.Objective are good examples. My presentation skills need some work, I'll admit that, and I found a number of things that I could have done quite a bit better at cf.Objective, however, the material in question is something that can save anyone who has more than one client lots of time. The rule manager facade is a good way to let OO encapsulation reduce the number of customization points in an application that will be used for multiple clients. Going back to the example of Site Manageware, we planned to use that same concept (although they weren't sold on XML as a storage medium) to eliminate the customization point for commissions paid to sales staff. Their existing system was rather problematic -- a rule manager in that spot would / will (I assume they're still planning to implement it) save them large amounts of time in the configuration of rules for sales commissions. In my case I wrote the rule manager facade once, and have implemented it now twice. Writing the initial code for the facade took several weeks. Each implementation has taken a few hours, and the result of those implementations makes the applications they're in far more flexible than comparable applications. Compare Blogs onTap to BlogCFC (not saying it's bad, just comparing) -- out of the box, BlogCFC would have to be customized if you wanted to limit the amount of time a person could comment on a blog entry (don't ask me why that's desirable, I just remember seeing
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
again your taking it out of context. when I say I don't care, I simply mean that I am not gonna have cow and lay awake at night getting stressed and thinking of new abusive comments I can post to everyone who didn't agree with me, which appears to be your problem. I am hapy to hear what other people use and why they use it, I just don't want it rammed down my throat. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:50:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions At the end of the day, it's each to his own, I have my opinion and I couldn't care less who likes what framework at the end of the day, Then why did you bather to post an inflamatory message about Model-Glue at all? What were you trying to contribute? I'm really not trying to be pejorative here. This isn't a stab. I genuinely don't understand your motivation if you're really this disinterested in any kind of debate about the usefulness of frameworks. When I say I don't care, I simply mean ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237285 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
while it's not a common language, and is over most peoples heads, it's still used. Programs that allow you write programs in other languages are more often than not written in machine language in the first place. -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 21:13:28 -0400 Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Matt, the first language I ever learnt was Machine Language/Assembler, so be careful with your assumptions. Oh, so you should already be familiar with the vanishing niche problem. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237286 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
lets just make this very clear. While Isaac has implied it, no-one has actually said frameworks suck so far, certainly not me, as I do use them, and have written my own. I was never a big fan of fusebox, mainly due to the fact that I kept having constant problems with badly written code done by developers didn't understand how fusebox core files worked and whenever something broke they blamed the server or the host. But I do think they finally got it right with fusebox 4.1, and I like it so far. Russ -Original Message- From: Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 22:49:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Frankly, I'd say that not using a decent framework is like continuing to rely on your mother to buy tightie-whities, when the rest of the development world has blown past you into boxers (or boxer briefs). That's not to say there aren't good developers who are an exception to the rule and go commando (Simon, you reading this thread yet?). On 4/8/06, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there are definately practical advantages to a framework, though it often depends entirely on the framework you choose. Frameworks are just like underware: it is important to wear some, but the most important is to wear your own... -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237287 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
FW: Body too long: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Well Isaac as I keep saying, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And mine is that your the one who will be left fishing for scraps, because I can't see many companies giving a job to someone like you who is so arrogant and living with his head up his own ass and thinks everyone is below him. Most big companie shave their own set of standards, and refusing to adhere by them and telling your employers they are stupid idiots for not agreeing with you really wont do u any favours. A solid understanding of life and people and how to get on with them is required in the real world, something you appear to lack. Your probably to be one of those bedroom coders who can't get on with anyone or anything so just keeps to himself and locks himself in a dark room where he doesn't have to meet people and risk getting beaten up cozz you cannot help but insult them. I feel sorry for you really. Russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:50:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Sure, there are lots of people who are doing well in that niche today, and there will be tomorrow, but there are fewer of them every year. We work in an environment of planned obsolescence -- we create new things, knowing very well that they will be supplanted in years to come. This is the nature of programming. A good developer needs to be constantly becoming, otherwise you have to face the fact that if you don't continue to learn, your skill is gradually devalued by simple economics and your niche disappears. I struggle with this myself actually, because it's the one thing I really dislike about programming work, the knowledge that what I do today will be basically irrelevant in a few years time, as compared to the works of philosophers and artists which are as valuable today as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago. I would like to think that the work of my hand would have lasting meaning, but I have to accept that programming work is not, no matter how innovative or productive it may be. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237288 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Mike Kear wrote: Thanks Rick, I appreciate your nice comments. I started with CSS a couple of years ago, and while the learning curve for that was pretty steep too, it was a liberating experience too. Separating code from look and feel made everything simpler.The code is smaller, more straightforward. Downloads faster, easier to maintain.No more searching though nested tables looking for the cell I'm trying to modify. A lot of people try to do things that are far too complex to start off with.No sense trying to emulate the Sydney Morning Herald site (http://www.smh.com.au) on your first go. One of the tricks of developing a web app with CSS is to do the code first. THEN do the styling. Or let the styling be done by somebody else :) I prefer to work together with somebody who does the styling. The best division of work is that at the end of the technical design phase we have agreed on a format of the XHTML to be generated by the application. That can look something like: body# 1 h1 # 1 div id=menu # 1 a class=menu/a # 0-3 ul # 1 lia/a/li # 1-7 /ul /div div id=content# 1 h3 # 1 | h2 # 1 | p # 1 | a # 0-* | h4a # 1 | # 1-10 /div div id=extension # 1 h3 # 1 | p # 1 | a # 1-* | # 1-3 /div div id=fineprint # 1 img # 1 p/p # 1 ul # 1 lia/a/li # 5-7 /ul /div /body So what do we actually specify here? We start with saying there will be one body. Since there is only ever one body, assigning an ID is silly. Then there must be one h1, followed by a div with the ID menu. In the menu, there may optionally be 3 a, but they must have the class menu. Then there must be an unordered list with minimum 1 and maximum 7 elements (the menu). Then we get on to the div with id content. It must contain at least one and at most 10 groups of h3h2ph4. Etc. etc. This is a very simple example, but don't be mistaken: this goes a long way to specifying the XHTML structure of a site. I think the structure of a site like Mike's http://afpwebworks.com/ would only be double this size (in my experience all the additional stuff for forms, tables etc. is the same for every site anyway because it is driven from accessibility and standard compliance requirements that are always the same). Making such a specification requires a certain level of abstraction. You really have to think about the semantic function of elements. For instance, you may have noticed the ID fineprint. That is not because it should be in a very small font size, that is because it is the legal fine print like a disclaimer, copyright notice, AUP etc. Typically this is placed in a footer and many people would use the ID footer for that, but footer is just a position, it is not the function. Same goes for extension, that would be named sidebar by many people if this were a 2-column layout, but that is just the position, not the function. This also means you need to work with a stylist that has that same level of abstraction, which are not always that easy to find. But if you get this going, it is indeed truely liberating. You just have to make sure the XHTML your application outputs conforms to the specification. Nothing more then that. No more issues with moving elements one pixel to the left or right in version Y of browser X, all of that is somebody elses problem. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237290 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: FW: Body too long: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Please keep flame wars and personal debates off of CF-Talk. This is nothing personal against you, Snake, but when Michael reads this, I'm sure he'll be of the same opinion. Judith Dinowitz ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237293 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: FW: Body too long: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Well Isaac as I keep saying, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And mine is that your the one who will be left fishing for scraps, because I can't see many companies giving a job to someone like you who is so arrogant and living with his head up his own ass and thinks everyone is below him. Most big companie shave their own set of standards, and refusing to adhere by them and telling your employers they are stupid idiots for not agreeing with you really wont do u any favours. A solid understanding of life and people and how to get on with them is required in the real world, something you appear to lack. Your probably to be one of those bedroom coders who can't get on with anyone or anything so just keeps to himself and locks himself in a dark room where he doesn't have to meet people and risk getting beaten up cozz you cannot help but insult them. I feel sorry for you really. Russ Is anybody else wondering who he's trying to convince? Is there even any reason for me to respond to verbal abuse like this? Am I perceived as being so arrogant? Does anybody else want to support Russ? I'm not being snarky or facetious here, I really would like to know if people perceive me that way. If there's a general feeling that I present myself in a way that encourages this perception of me having a superiority complex, I'd like to know if there's something I can do to change the way I present myself. Bedroom coders: No, I gave two presentations at cf.Objective this year. Corporate standards: I was at Site Manageware for 1.5 years and adhered to every one of the standards they decided on, in spite of disagreeing with quite a few of them. I've also done quite a bit of Fusebox work and adhered to those standards in spite of being preferential to other methods. People: I get along with them fairly well. From about the time I joined Site Manageware I became the de-facto answer guy because I enjoy helping people and the other programmers could tell that I enjoyed helping them and that in many cases I simply had more experience than them. It wasn't my job. I wasn't even a manager of any kind. My supervisor made all the architectural decisions, although he generally included me in discussion about them. Probably a good 50% of the architectural decisions he made were contrary to my input and that never bothered me. Arrogance: I do believe that I have more experience than most ColdFusion programmers, but then I've been working with ColdFusion for 8 years and it's only been around for a little over 10, so there's not a whole lot of room for people to have more hands-on experience than I do, although there certainly are some and I learn new things about it all the time. I know when I've produced something that nobody else has published in the community (ex: sql language abstraction, xml rule managers), but I'm not so arrogant as to think that nobody else has done these things and simply not published them or that nobody else could. I also acknowledge when others have done things I haven't, like Tartan, ColdSpring and COAL. I don't think any of us is above or below anyone else, we just have different experiences and different opinions. My personal opinions about the nature of programming are based on what we know collectively about economics. During the 80's I had a huge collection of casette tapes and VHS. They're all gone now, asside from a handful of VHS. Why? Because the increased supply of CD/DVD technology devalued them and made them no longer profitable to manufacture. The same is true of any set of skills - increased supply of new skills will bring the price of them down and devalue older skills. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237297 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I like Assembly. I respect people who have taken the time to learn it. Isn't it sort o like: CF Java C ASM 110011 ? (sorta?) Maybe now it's more of a CF Java machine lang? I've heard tell of java compiling that did better optimization than the a human... but it's funny that you would use a language like Java and shy away from generated code. He he he. [= Not gonna weigh in on frameworks. Maybe later. :d -ps with the advances in micro electronics, low level code is still in, if'n ya ask me. Not that anyone did. If it's really about the number of people doing something, vs. skill/practicality, I guess the best solution is taking out some competition, neh? Get yourself a nice high-powered rifle and a cozy spot near an internet cafe. :-P Seriously tho, you'd be kind of silly to base a tech decision based solely on supply and demand. That gets you into the whole king of the hill (the t.v. show) mentality, find a job no one else wants do do. Sure, you'll always have work, but is that what the goal is? There will always be work to be done, just like stuff will always be built on other stuff. The real meat and potatoes are in the sum is more than the parts type deals. I don't think language or popularity have much to do with it, sorta. You want to further the world as a whole, not have job security. I love to kill off job security. Every chance I get I'm like, here's how you can do it yourself, easy like. Some co-workers fear that mentality, and wish I'd keep it to myself. Sorta keeping an artificial demand going. There will always be legit demands to supply, so who cares about the status quo? - Note my use of security as work - as I believe good people automatically have the type of job security that most people talk about, and somehow conflate with work. I'd rather see something like BETA win over VHS, than buy into the whole economics of numbers mentality. Just a random injection. Please be aware that I don't condone the personal attacks this thread has generated. I'm not taking any side, I just like assembly, and it's usefulness/niche. And I'm warning against the evils of the majority, or what-not. Wouldn't want someone to read into it that there's no future in low level coding, I guess. So... *cough* um... back to chill'n, chill'n... (-= On 4/9/06, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm well aware that it's still used. I'm also well aware that the niche for Assembler is smaller today than it was prior to the invention of C/C++ for example. There is less demand and therefore fewer people take the time to learn Assembler in today's market because less demand means that more supply will devalue the skill set. A larger demand for Java in todays market means that more people continue to learn Java in today's market. If another language were to come along and have at its core the concepts behind Java yet be more stable and easier to implement, that would probably supplant Java in time. ColdFusion is not that language (because it's not useful for desktop applications), and I doubt Ruby is, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237312 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: FW: Body too long: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
From what I've seen you've been pretty cordial. I assumed in my oblivion I could have missed some posts, thus the I'm staying out of it, but it was the name calling that set off my flame ding-a-ling. No need for that here. (I guess, I'm new, so, I don't know the lay of the land. Could be par for the course or whatever) Heh. Now that's odd that you would mention VHS. Not sure how it correlates, but there's something interesting in there. Hmmm. Well, life is such a trip. Yay! :Den On 4/9/06, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well Isaac as I keep saying, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And mine is that your the one who will be left fishing for scraps, because I can't see many companies giving a job to someone like you who is so arrogant and living with his head up his own ass and thinks everyone is below him. Most big companie shave their own set of standards, and refusing to adhere by them and telling your employers they are stupid idiots for not agreeing with you really wont do u any favours. A solid understanding of life and people and how to get on with them is required in the real world, something you appear to lack. Your probably to be one of those bedroom coders who can't get on with anyone or anything so just keeps to himself and locks himself in a dark room where he doesn't have to meet people and risk getting beaten up cozz you cannot help but insult them. I feel sorry for you really. Russ Is anybody else wondering who he's trying to convince? Is there even any reason for me to respond to verbal abuse like this? Am I perceived as being so arrogant? Does anybody else want to support Russ? I'm not being snarky or facetious here, I really would like to know if people perceive me that way. If there's a general feeling that I present myself in a way that encourages this perception of me having a superiority complex, I'd like to know if there's something I can do to change the way I present myself. Bedroom coders: No, I gave two presentations at cf.Objective this year. Corporate standards: I was at Site Manageware for 1.5 years and adhered to every one of the standards they decided on, in spite of disagreeing with quite a few of them. I've also done quite a bit of Fusebox work and adhered to those standards in spite of being preferential to other methods. People: I get along with them fairly well. From about the time I joined Site Manageware I became the de-facto answer guy because I enjoy helping people and the other programmers could tell that I enjoyed helping them and that in many cases I simply had more experience than them. It wasn't my job. I wasn't even a manager of any kind. My supervisor made all the architectural decisions, although he generally included me in discussion about them. Probably a good 50% of the architectural decisions he made were contrary to my input and that never bothered me. Arrogance: I do believe that I have more experience than most ColdFusion programmers, but then I've been working with ColdFusion for 8 years and it's only been around for a little over 10, so there's not a whole lot of room for people to have more hands-on experience than I do, although there certainly are some and I learn new things about it all the time. I know when I've produced something that nobody else has published in the community (ex: sql language abstraction, xml rule managers), but I'm not so arrogant as to think that nobody else has done these things and simply not published them or that nobody else could. I also acknowledge when others have done things I haven't, like Tartan, ColdSpring and COAL. I don't think any of us is above or below anyone else, we just have different experiences and different opinions. My personal opinions about the nature of programming are based on what we know collectively about economics. During the 80's I had a huge collection of casette tapes and VHS. They're all gone now, asside from a handful of VHS. Why? Because the increased supply of CD/DVD technology devalued them and made them no longer profitable to manufacture. The same is true of any set of skills - increased supply of new skills will bring the price of them down and devalue older skills. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237314 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I like Assembly. I respect people who have taken the time to learn it. I respect the ability to learn and use Assembler too... I'm glad the market for assembler is well satisfied, since I'm not particularly interested in working with it. :) For that matter I know some C++ and am not particularly interested in working with it routinely either. Isn't it sort o like: CF Java C ASM 110011 ? (sorta?) Maybe now it's more of a CF Java machine lang? I've heard tell of java compiling that did better optimization than the a human... but it's funny that you would use a language like Java and shy away from generated code. He he he. [= Yep, it's ironic ain't it? :) If it's really about the number of people doing something, vs. skill/practicality, I guess the best solution is taking out some competition, neh? Get yourself a nice high-powered rifle and a cozy spot near an internet cafe. :-P Now there's a practical man. :P Seriously tho, you'd be kind of silly to base a tech decision based solely on supply and demand. That gets you into the whole king of the hill (the t.v. show) mentality, find a job no one else wants do do. Although I certainly don't base my tech decisions solely on market influences I do think it's important to consider them. A person who knows some XML is certainly more valuable in today's programming market than they would have been 10 years ago (how old is XML anyway?). In another 10 years that skill may have continued to become more valuable or it may be less valuable due to increased supply of programmers who are proficient with XML. As a programmer you have value to the company you work for as long as the company sees a need for you to produce more software, and of course if the company decides that the technology you're using isn't valuable enough anymore, then you either have to find another company that values that technology or you have to learn something else. Just ask Jim Davis whos company (Met Life?) recently decided that ColdFusion wasn't valuable enough for them anymore (I disagree with their decision, but I digress) and decided to replace all their ColdFusion applications with Java applications written on top of IBM Websphere. If lots of companies collectively decide that your preferred technology isn't valuable enough anymore, then finding another company that continues to value it becomes more difficult because of the lack of demand. Difficulty finding jobs using that technology means having to compete with others who are willing to accept lower salaries. My preference is to learn more before I need that knowledge so that I'll be prepared. Now having said that, if it suddenly became improbable that I could find a job working with ColdFusion which would pay me well enough to survive with my expenses, then I would have to find some other technology to start working with (I don't think this is going to happen in the near future), and that decision wouldn't be based purely on supply and demand. My decision to stay with ColdFusion currently isn't based purely on supply and demand, if it were, then I would probably be working in all Java jobs. :) Sure, you'll always have work, but is that what the goal is? That's one of my goals. :) It's not my only goal. There will always be work to be done, just like stuff will always be built on other stuff. The real meat and potatoes are in the sum is more than the parts type deals. I don't think language or popularity have much to do with it, sorta. I tend to agree. I think ColdFusion as a technology does a good job of encouraging synergies. You want to further the world as a whole, not have job security. I'd like both. :) I love to kill off job security. Every chance I get I'm like, here's how you can do it yourself, easy like. Some co-workers fear that mentality, and wish I'd keep it to myself. Sorta keeping an artificial demand going. There will always be legit demands to supply, so who cares about the status quo? Yeah, I don't think artificial demand really helps people in the long run. I personally hate doing repetitive work, which is why I spend so much time encapsulating functionality, so I can avoid much repetition. Note my use of security as work - as I believe good people automatically have the type of job security that most people talk about, and somehow conflate with work. I'm not so convinced, although it's nice to think that would be the case. I'd rather see something like BETA win over VHS, than buy into the whole economics of numbers mentality. I remember being told that the US passed a trade embargo that prevented Betamax from being sold in the US, which of course artificially deflates the demand for BETA. I never researched it tho. Just a random injection. Please be aware that I don't condone the personal attacks this thread has generated. I'm trying to stick primarily with stating opinion and trying to be informative, and actually wouldn't have replied to
Re: FW: Body too long: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
From what I've seen you've been pretty cordial. I assumed in my oblivion I could have missed some posts, thus the I'm staying out of it, but it was the name calling that set off my flame ding-a-ling. No need for that here. (I guess, I'm new, so, I don't know the lay of the land. Could be par for the course or whatever) It's not very common on cf-talk... It's a little more common on cf-community, but primarily in political threads, so I think people learn to accept that it happens when people talk about politics (or religion). But you know we're all human and we all have bad days and we all occasionally say things that aren't necessarily particularly pleasant. I probably could have phrased my 2nd reply a bit less abbrasively. At least the one phrase that seemed to be the focus of the most attention. Heh. Now that's odd that you would mention VHS. Not sure how it correlates, but there's something interesting in there. Hmmm. Well, life is such a trip. Yay! I was just making a correlation to another technology market. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237319 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Wow, way to post a troll message, Russ. Watch your back, the framework nazis know where you sleep... Nah, actually, it's cool to see differing thoughts on the subject, even though I disagree. My point of view, quick simpe, is that oss frameworks create the opposite of vendor-lock, because the standards are published and agreed upon publicly, and there is (hopefully) plenty of public documentation. But then there is something to be said for new developers and OO complexity. Maybe we should continue Brian Kotek's blog entry on the list ;) ... oh wow, i just looked, it's up to 56 replies: http://www.briankotek.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/4/5/The-CF-Skill-Divide -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/7/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ -Original Message- From: Nathan Strutz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 April 2006 23:34 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions didn't see a reply, so, bump! I can try my hand though... 4) Yes, from what I can tell, it's a pain. Wait for Model-Glue 2 with includes. Also, I suppose it may work to do XML includes... worth a shot, huh? Check this page: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/07/31/xinclude.html 5) No, you can make a controller for every event-handler if you like. I make one for every grouping or category. Just add another controller tag and cfc. 6) Check out Ray's coldfusioncookbook.com site code... it's on his blog somewhere, search for it. (sorry if this is a dupe - we're having connection problems today) -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/6/06, Nick Han [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone help me answer these questions? 1) I set 'refresh' to false in the config block, but it doesn't seem to work. The framework keeps reloading on every request. 2) As same above for 'debug'. 3) There can only be one ModelGlue.xml file per application. Is this correct? 4) If #3 is true, ModelGlue.xml file size can get really large. Wouldn't this be a pain to manage or maintain tons of event-handlers? 5) Are all CFC calls invoked through /controller/controller.cfc, which has references of business or other CFCs? 6) Lastly, would someone, who has a fairly large site in production that is using MG, be willing to give me a copy of ModelGlue.xml to look at? Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237223 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Snake wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. At least there are people that already understand frameworks like Model-Glue and Fusebox. How many people are there that already understand the private, never published (and never reviewed) framework of a sole developer? Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237225 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
It still all boils down to one simple thing for me. Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. There is just no reason to do this as far as I can see. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue, except it's more accessible to more developers, easier to understand, faster to use and a better ROI. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. So great if u like these type sof frameworks, but really, don't expect everyone else to. It's just using CFC's to create an OO type environment just for the sake of it. Russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 03:11 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Not so much. There are too many people using Fusebox, Model Glue or Mach-II for that to be any reason to keep the programmer you have currently if they are doing a bad job for you. On the other hand there's the onTap framework, which is a bit different and as of yet doesn't have a large developer base. If you only ever look at the code then sure it's liable to take a while to decypher, however nearly every jot and divet of the framework is heavily documented with both component references and tutorials, so if there is ever any question about the way the framework handle's a particular piece of code, you can find out how it works pretty quickly. This is the way programming is supposed to work to begin with is it not? ColdFusion is an easy language to implement, but it's always helped that the documentation for the language has been thorough. If the documentation doesn't suffice, you can always email me and ask and I can update the docs. :) I'm sure the same goes for all the other frameworks. as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. That's also changing. The increase in frameworks usage in the community at large means that not learning them is likely to reduce your job options, rather than the other way around. Some employers who use Fusebox have turned down potential employees without an understanding of Fusebox for a while now, so with the addition of several more frameworks in popular and more frequent use, this situation will only become more common. Learn to work with them now and be prepared, because employers will expect them. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237226 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I think perhaps you need to take a chill pill there Nathan, the rest of the world is not going to agree with your opinion just because you want them to, we have our own minds are are entitled to our own opinions and thoughts, and those are mine. Everyone who disagrees with you is not a troll, in fact Trolls are not real, they are fairytale characters, so I don't think I am going to worry to much about watching my back as no trolls are going to get me in my sleep, and I have yet to have anyone actually turn up on my doorstep who threatened me on a forum, if they did then they would get a shock I think. Russ -Original Message- From: Nathan Strutz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 08:09 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Wow, way to post a troll message, Russ. Watch your back, the framework nazis know where you sleep... Nah, actually, it's cool to see differing thoughts on the subject, even though I disagree. My point of view, quick simpe, is that oss frameworks create the opposite of vendor-lock, because the standards are published and agreed upon publicly, and there is (hopefully) plenty of public documentation. But then there is something to be said for new developers and OO complexity. Maybe we should continue Brian Kotek's blog entry on the list ;) ... oh wow, i just looked, it's up to 56 replies: http://www.briankotek.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/4/5/The-CF-Skill-Divide -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/7/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ -Original Message- From: Nathan Strutz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 April 2006 23:34 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions didn't see a reply, so, bump! I can try my hand though... 4) Yes, from what I can tell, it's a pain. Wait for Model-Glue 2 with includes. Also, I suppose it may work to do XML includes... worth a shot, huh? Check this page: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/07/31/xinclude.html 5) No, you can make a controller for every event-handler if you like. I make one for every grouping or category. Just add another controller tag and cfc. 6) Check out Ray's coldfusioncookbook.com site code... it's on his blog somewhere, search for it. (sorry if this is a dupe - we're having connection problems today) -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/6/06, Nick Han [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone help me answer these questions? 1) I set 'refresh' to false in the config block, but it doesn't seem to work. The framework keeps reloading on every request. 2) As same above for 'debug'. 3) There can only be one ModelGlue.xml file per application. Is this correct? 4) If #3 is true, ModelGlue.xml file size can get really large. Wouldn't this be a pain to manage or maintain tons of event-handlers? 5) Are all CFC calls invoked through /controller/controller.cfc, which has references of business or other CFCs? 6) Lastly, would someone, who has a fairly large site in production that is using MG, be willing to give me a copy of ModelGlue.xml to look at? Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237227 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Snake wrote: Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. Do you think that object oriented applications are by definition ridiculously complicated? You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. The only way you can just open a page is if there is no reuse of code. Otherwise you will always have includes / custom tags / modules / components. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. How many people know your framework? Has it been published? Has it been peer reviewed? The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. What does applying style and layout have to do with a framework? Style and layout is just CSS. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237232 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Read it in the context it is intended. If you don't understand, best to try it out for yourself. Russ -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 13:00 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Snake wrote: Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. Do you think that object oriented applications are by definition ridiculously complicated? You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. The only way you can just open a page is if there is no reuse of code. Otherwise you will always have includes / custom tags / modules / components. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. How many people know your framework? Has it been published? Has it been peer reviewed? The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. What does applying style and layout have to do with a framework? Style and layout is just CSS. Jochem ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237234 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
On 4/7/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ It's Saturday so I'm giving my diplomacy a day off - with the exception of the last phrase, that's a really piss poor statement. I do like the last part though - who the hell wants an average web developer working on their job? I want the best people I can find working with me. And if you look around, the best CF folks have gravitated towards a framework (even Simon, with his anti-framework frame...errr..methodology ;) ). There's probably a reason for this: Responsible, mature developers understand that different toolsets are appropriate for different types of work. If you're going to back a simple one-page contact form with Model-Glue (or Mach-II), it's rather like cutting butter with a chainsaw - it might be kind of fun, but messy in the end. Those of us who have moved forward and gone past the simple CRUD list / detail view apps of 1999 require tools that properly separate business logic from presentation, meaning that you could never simply open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it - unless you wanted to have to duplicate the same logic across every other page / service / API / interface that needed to utilize it. Model-Glue, Mach-II, and MVC Fusebox are such tools. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's a piss-poor example (sorry to use the phrase again, but it's just so on-target for this thread). If I wrote a book in French and than gave it to an English-only proofreader, it's likely that the result would be bad. That's pretty much what you did, taking an MG/OO app and giving it to another developer. If it's just a simple test site, zip it up and send it over to me, I'd be happy to take a look/make pointers. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue Model-Glue is a *very* simple framework. It even has some built-in limitations where I chose simplicity over power. Where people goof is when they try to make things more complex than they need to be. Heck, you ever seen Struts? Now there's a world of pain... . So, are frameworks like MG/M2/FB necessary for a simple web app? No, of course not. Is writing simple web apps going to be enough to keep developers competitive and employed as we move into a world where the same app must be web, mobile, RIA/Flex/Ajax, and provide a headless API? Probably not. Frameworks like MG/M2/FB are simply tools good developers - those members of the development community who do work that's moved past writing the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager - will recognize as being appropriate for Web-based presentation of applications that are reusable for multiple clients mediums. If there's a sector of the web/ColdFusion community who never wants to move past the CF5 mentality, or wants to continue writing spaghetti open one page in dreamweaver code, I'm more than happy to let you be, because I don't want to deal with that type of work or application ever again. To be fair, please realize that there's another section of the same community that does work that requires tools like MVC frameworks, and we're not using/creating them just to make your lives miserable; there's no reason to accuse us of overcomplicating your lives just because you don't get our tools. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237236 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Be careful Joe, you may be speaking over Russ' head. Acronyms like 'API' are foriegn to the 'open a page in DreamWeaver/HomeSite and edit it' type of people. I think the main point is that Joe and Russ agree on the idea that frameworks are overkill for a simple web site. However, I would make the argument that the code re-usability that frameworks encourage may make even simple websites worth doing in an OO/Framework style. It seems more than one client wants an event calendar, an email/contact database, etc. And of course an admin to control these and other content. Building stand-alone service layers for each of these types of things can make life easier and code reuse more accessible. As for the frustrated designer, I would have to wonder what Russ' view pages actually looked like. I find changing the css and layout to be easier with a framework as I'm not wading through a bunch of queries or switch statements or what not. And I'm able to reuse partial-page views more easily, so a change to something in one place affects all - this is a good thing. My 2 cents. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237237 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
My 0.02c on this is that separating business logic from style and display has revolutionised my life. Since January I have been building five sites simultaneously. They have similar but not identical needs. I have taken the parts of the sites that are the same on all, and used an OO approach to make them They're all done (I built all five with the one set of code- i could have built a hundred of them and got them 90% finished in one go if had the orders for them!) At the time i started, I didnt think using OO was necessary, but since everyone was talking about it, I decided it was something I needed to know more about, so I persevered. As the project went along I started to see the benefits. I'd finish a function, start to test it, find that there was a tweak or a change that was needed and making the change was a breeze. What would have taken me hours the old way took me minutes this way. Far fewer 'variable not defined errors (in fact that kind of error is almost unheard of now) - more things worked first time than I have ever seen in my life. I am certain that as life goes along and clients need changes to these sites, accomplishing the changes they want is going to be far easier than it would have been. I work on other programmers pages now as part of my contracting work, and I find it very frustrating. I can spend far more time looking for the line of code I need ot work on than actually doing the work. Separating logic from presentation, by using OO techniques and CFCs has meant that code is reusable. I have been able to copy 90% of one site to four others ***AND HAVE THEM WORK JUST LIKE THAT - FIRST TIME!!*** thus reducing the development time on each of those four other sites from weeks to a day or so. That day or so is spent writing the last 10% for the specific stuff they wanted and testing the site. Want to have a look at one of these sites? (Only one has been launched so far) - see http://afpwebworks.com Another is http://bluegrass.org.au.They are fairly straightforward but fully dynamic and I spend my time nowdays being FAR more productive than i have EVER been. I can take on FAR more work than I would have DARED to do before. I even have written a couple of simple code generation programs (in CF) to make it all happen even faster! I'm preparing an article for http://afpwebworks.com about OO techniques written for people like I was - who dont 'get it' yet and find the language used by OO afficianados difficult to fathom. But trust me, It's worth the effort to learn. Really. Even for simple apps. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/9/06, Matt Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Be careful Joe, you may be speaking over Russ' head. Acronyms like 'API' are foriegn to the 'open a page in DreamWeaver/HomeSite and edit it' type of people. I think the main point is that Joe and Russ agree on the idea that frameworks are overkill for a simple web site. However, I would make the argument that the code re-usability that frameworks encourage may make even simple websites worth doing in an OO/Framework style. It seems more than one client wants an event calendar, an email/contact database, etc. And of course an admin to control these and other content. Building stand-alone service layers for each of these types of things can make life easier and code reuse more accessible. As for the frustrated designer, I would have to wonder what Russ' view pages actually looked like. I find changing the css and layout to be easier with a framework as I'm not wading through a bunch of queries or switch statements or what not. And I'm able to reuse partial-page views more easily, so a change to something in one place affects all - this is a good thing. My 2 cents. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237240 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Hi, Mike... I see from the source on afpwebworks.com that you're using CSS as your layout method. Looks nice. So you've tackled OO development and CSS, too? I'm impressed...the CSS just looks so aggravating to make work. I'm on one of the main css lists and I see those folks spending vasts amount of time just trying to make a layout work, when tables always work...and across browsers, too... I just wonder if tableless design is worth the effort. Also, what's your toolset for doing your development (OO) and design (CSS) work? And anything else you use... Thanks for the comments... Rick -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:20 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions My 0.02c on this is that separating business logic from style and display has revolutionised my life. Since January I have been building five sites simultaneously. They have similar but not identical needs. I have taken the parts of the sites that are the same on all, and used an OO approach to make them They're all done (I built all five with the one set of code- i could have built a hundred of them and got them 90% finished in one go if had the orders for them!) At the time i started, I didnt think using OO was necessary, but since everyone was talking about it, I decided it was something I needed to know more about, so I persevered. As the project went along I started to see the benefits. I'd finish a function, start to test it, find that there was a tweak or a change that was needed and making the change was a breeze. What would have taken me hours the old way took me minutes this way. Far fewer 'variable not defined errors (in fact that kind of error is almost unheard of now) - more things worked first time than I have ever seen in my life. I am certain that as life goes along and clients need changes to these sites, accomplishing the changes they want is going to be far easier than it would have been. I work on other programmers pages now as part of my contracting work, and I find it very frustrating. I can spend far more time looking for the line of code I need ot work on than actually doing the work. Separating logic from presentation, by using OO techniques and CFCs has meant that code is reusable. I have been able to copy 90% of one site to four others ***AND HAVE THEM WORK JUST LIKE THAT - FIRST TIME!!*** thus reducing the development time on each of those four other sites from weeks to a day or so. That day or so is spent writing the last 10% for the specific stuff they wanted and testing the site. Want to have a look at one of these sites? (Only one has been launched so far) - see http://afpwebworks.com Another is http://bluegrass.org.au.They are fairly straightforward but fully dynamic and I spend my time nowdays being FAR more productive than i have EVER been. I can take on FAR more work than I would have DARED to do before. I even have written a couple of simple code generation programs (in CF) to make it all happen even faster! I'm preparing an article for http://afpwebworks.com about OO techniques written for people like I was - who dont 'get it' yet and find the language used by OO afficianados difficult to fathom. But trust me, It's worth the effort to learn. Really. Even for simple apps. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/9/06, Matt Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Be careful Joe, you may be speaking over Russ' head. Acronyms like 'API' are foriegn to the 'open a page in DreamWeaver/HomeSite and edit it' type of people. I think the main point is that Joe and Russ agree on the idea that frameworks are overkill for a simple web site. However, I would make the argument that the code re-usability that frameworks encourage may make even simple websites worth doing in an OO/Framework style. It seems more than one client wants an event calendar, an email/contact database, etc. And of course an admin to control these and other content. Building stand-alone service layers for each of these types of things can make life easier and code reuse more accessible. As for the frustrated designer, I would have to wonder what Russ' view pages actually looked like. I find changing the css and layout to be easier with a framework as I'm not wading through a bunch of queries or switch statements or what not. And I'm able to reuse partial-page views more easily, so a change to something in one place affects all - this is a good thing. My 2 cents. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237242 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
It still all boils down to one simple thing for me. Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. I don't work on or with web pages. I haven't worked on or with web pages in many years. I work on and with applications. The fact that the medium is web is a matter of expedience. You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. I'm not a designer. If I were to provide a means for designers to contribute to my applications, it would be in a CMS, wherein a designer could certainly quite easily open a document in Dreamweaver, edit it and then paste the html into the application. Mostly I work on applications that don't have lots of design in the traditional graphic sense -- they have interaction design which is quite a bit different and deals with the manner in which users accomplish tasks, not the attractiveness of the page. There is just no reason to do this as far as I can see. You probably work on a very different kind of web than I do. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue, except it's more accessible to more developers, easier to understand, faster to use and a better ROI. That depends entirely on the project in question. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's not nearly enough information for anyone to make a viable judgement about the situation. It could be that the application didn't need OO because it was just a simple brochureware site. It also could be that it was a genuine extranet application which really needed some structure to make it maintainable in the long-term and that this is a scenario in which the designer needs to stretch herself (or be replaced) for the greater good of an ongoing project. Without knowing what the application is doing I can't make any viable judgements. So great if u like these type sof frameworks, but really, don't expect everyone else to. Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. It's just using CFC's to create an OO type environment just for the sake of it. That depends entirely on the project in question. A 5-10 page brochureware web site doesn't have any significant need for the encapsulation and extensibility of OO tools, because all it does is display some content on the web. I don't work on those sites. Most of the time when I answer questions for people on this list or in instant messengers, on the phone, in person, I'm not answering questions about those sites or the tasks associated with those sites. Why? Because the people I help are programmers, not graphic artists, and the mechanical programming aspects of those sites are easy, hence, there's no need for people to ask me questions about them. There are however a vast number of people in the ColdFusion community, as in any dynamic content server platform community, who work primarily on intranet and extranet applications. This is the larger programming world I'm involved in. In this world, nearly without fail, some OO encapsulation is a significant benefit to our applications. If all my intranet or extranet application did was mirror a public brochureware site, you'd be right, but then I wouldn't be making much money either, because my clients would just be hiring their neices and nephews who know how to use photoshop. They hire me because I know how to do things that other people don't, like modeling a database, creating complex SQL queries and generating RSS feeds that newsreaders won't reject. Part of that set of specialized skills includes the application of techniques like OO for improving the extensibility and maintainability of complex applications. Here is just one example of the kind of applications the vast majority of my jobs have involved: Site Manageware: an ASP extranet application for the residential real-estate market. The application manages a complex set of inventory including peripheral sales (parking spaces, boat slips), and upgrades (marble countertops, solid wood cabinets) and 3-dimensional maps of properties (placement of units on the property), mostly for high-rise condominiums. In addition to the inventory the application manages the sale process from start to finish including marketing campaigns (demographic tracking), price adjustments (oh my god do these get insane), downpayments,
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Mike Kear wrote: Want to have a look at one of these sites? (Only one has been launched so far) - see http://afpwebworks.com Another is http://bluegrass.org.au.They are fairly straightforward but fully dynamic and I spend my time nowdays being FAR more productive than i have EVER been. I can take on FAR more work than I would have DARED to do before. I even have written a couple of simple code generation programs (in CF) to make it all happen even faster! I'm preparing an article for http://afpwebworks.com about OO techniques written for people like I was - who dont 'get it' yet and find the language used by OO afficianados difficult to fathom. But trust me, It's worth the effort to learn. Really. Congratulations Mike. :) I'm not a big fan of code generators personally, because of the potential they have to produce maintenance problems later... I just have this image of myself looking at an ass-load of generated beans that all need to be tweaked or rewritten in some way that isn't easily automatable. I much prefer to use composition or inheritance than generation... I use generation sparingly and typically for non-CFC templates... but I digress... :) I'm glad to see you've found something to make life easier. :) I had a conversation with my father a couple months ago in which I was describing some code I was working on refactoring. My father actually worked on a couple versions of DOS, before the phrases object orientation or refactoring were coined. He was telling me how he'd had basically the same experience that I have, that the process of refactoring problem code is hugely gratifying, and that he was one of the first people to start talking about this idea of rewriting code with maintainability being the focus of interest, and showing or trying to show businesses that it really does make sense to take the time to do that because there's a real-world, dollars-and-cents savings in time spent maintaining the code. Anyway, not a brag or anything, it just felt good to have that connection, thought I'd pass it along. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237244 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
...everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. *applause* ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237245 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Joe Rinehart wrote: Model-Glue, Mach-II, and MVC Fusebox are such tools. snip So, are frameworks like MG/M2/FB necessary for a simple web app? No, of course not. snip Frameworks like MG/M2/FB are simply tools good developers - those members of the development community who do work that's moved past writing the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager - will recognize as being appropriate for Web-based presentation of applications that are reusable for multiple clients mediums. Thanks Joe. :P Just thought I'd give you grief, because, I can. :P I do think it's kinda funny, the irony that you mentioned the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager because I'm currently working on a contact manager that's complex enough to need OO encapsulation. :) Only because it's both internationalized and designed to be a pluggable API that can support multiple applications and formats. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237246 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Yeah that line hit me too man. Innovate and overcome or die. -- Timothy Heald Analyst, Architect, Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: 202-228-8372 C: 703-300-3911 -Original Message- From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions ...everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. *applause* ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237247 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Great post man, and it really touches on something that I don't think enough people really concentrate on. Application VS. Web Site. I haven't ever worked on a web site other than some little dinky side stuff. I write mission critical applications, often classified, that are used by government, law enforcement and the military. I also don't think some people realize the size and scope of these applications, and just how much complexity can be required in a single page request. For me using a framework isn't something I do to be cool, it's the only way I have of providing sanity for myself while debugging, fixing errors, conduction maintenance or adding new functionality to an already existing application. It saves, not costs, time and money in the long run. Something that seems to also be a problem for a lot of junior developers or graphics people, is the simple fact that to stay cutting adage as a programmer, you must be constantly doing professional development, constantly learning the new platform, application server, design pattern, or technology. For the designer guy: You want to continue getting raises and promotions? Learn about web based applications. Learn about frameworks. Learn whatever you can. -- Timothy Heald Analyst, Architect, Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: 202-228-8372 C: 703-300-3911 -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions It still all boils down to one simple thing for me. Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. I don't work on or with web pages. I haven't worked on or with web pages in many years. I work on and with applications. The fact that the medium is web is a matter of expedience. You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. I'm not a designer. If I were to provide a means for designers to contribute to my applications, it would be in a CMS, wherein a designer could certainly quite easily open a document in Dreamweaver, edit it and then paste the html into the application. Mostly I work on applications that don't have lots of design in the traditional graphic sense -- they have interaction design which is quite a bit different and deals with the manner in which users accomplish tasks, not the attractiveness of the page. There is just no reason to do this as far as I can see. You probably work on a very different kind of web than I do. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue, except it's more accessible to more developers, easier to understand, faster to use and a better ROI. That depends entirely on the project in question. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's not nearly enough information for anyone to make a viable judgement about the situation. It could be that the application didn't need OO because it was just a simple brochureware site. It also could be that it was a genuine extranet application which really needed some structure to make it maintainable in the long-term and that this is a scenario in which the designer needs to stretch herself (or be replaced) for the greater good of an ongoing project. Without knowing what the application is doing I can't make any viable judgements. So great if u like these type sof frameworks, but really, don't expect everyone else to. Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. It's just using CFC's to create an OO type environment just for the sake of it. That depends entirely on the project in question. A 5-10 page brochureware web site doesn't have any significant need for the encapsulation and extensibility of OO tools, because all it does is display some content on the web. I don't work on those sites. Most of the time when I answer questions for people on this list or in instant messengers, on the phone, in person, I'm not answering questions about those sites or the tasks associated with those sites. Why? Because the people I help are programmers, not graphic artists, and the mechanical programming aspects of those sites are easy, hence, there's no need for people to ask me questions about them. There are however a vast number of people in the ColdFusion community, as in any dynamic content
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Does that mean I have to upgrade from CF 4.5.2? ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: Loathe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:12 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Great post man, and it really touches on something that I don't think enough people really concentrate on. Application VS. Web Site. I haven't ever worked on a web site other than some little dinky side stuff. I write mission critical applications, often classified, that are used by government, law enforcement and the military. I also don't think some people realize the size and scope of these applications, and just how much complexity can be required in a single page request. For me using a framework isn't something I do to be cool, it's the only way I have of providing sanity for myself while debugging, fixing errors, conduction maintenance or adding new functionality to an already existing application. It saves, not costs, time and money in the long run. Something that seems to also be a problem for a lot of junior developers or graphics people, is the simple fact that to stay cutting adage as a programmer, you must be constantly doing professional development, constantly learning the new platform, application server, design pattern, or technology. For the designer guy: You want to continue getting raises and promotions? Learn about web based applications. Learn about frameworks. Learn whatever you can. -- Timothy Heald Analyst, Architect, Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: 202-228-8372 C: 703-300-3911 -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions It still all boils down to one simple thing for me. Tame something very simple, a web page And make it ridiculously complicated by turning it into an object oriented application. I don't work on or with web pages. I haven't worked on or with web pages in many years. I work on and with applications. The fact that the medium is web is a matter of expedience. You can't just open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it, you have to go through the code and find the part that generate the content and edit that. Which makes life very hard for the web designers. I'm not a designer. If I were to provide a means for designers to contribute to my applications, it would be in a CMS, wherein a designer could certainly quite easily open a document in Dreamweaver, edit it and then paste the html into the application. Mostly I work on applications that don't have lots of design in the traditional graphic sense -- they have interaction design which is quite a bit different and deals with the manner in which users accomplish tasks, not the attractiveness of the page. There is just no reason to do this as far as I can see. You probably work on a very different kind of web than I do. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue, except it's more accessible to more developers, easier to understand, faster to use and a better ROI. That depends entirely on the project in question. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's not nearly enough information for anyone to make a viable judgement about the situation. It could be that the application didn't need OO because it was just a simple brochureware site. It also could be that it was a genuine extranet application which really needed some structure to make it maintainable in the long-term and that this is a scenario in which the designer needs to stretch herself (or be replaced) for the greater good of an ongoing project. Without knowing what the application is doing I can't make any viable judgements. So great if u like these type sof frameworks, but really, don't expect everyone else to. Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. It's just using CFC's to create an OO type environment just for the sake of it. That depends entirely on the project in question. A 5-10 page brochureware web site doesn't have any significant need for the encapsulation and extensibility of OO tools, because all it does is display some content on the web. I don't work on those sites. Most of the time when I answer questions for people on this list or in instant messengers, on the phone, in person, I'm not answering questions about those sites or the tasks associated with those sites. Why? Because the people I help are programmers, not graphic artists, and the mechanical
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Generally web developers are not designers and vice versa, it's usually two separate jobs. Of course I'm not saying that is a rule set in stone, as some people are both, myself included. -Original Message- From: Joe Rinehart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 14:47 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions On 4/7/06, Snake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ It's Saturday so I'm giving my diplomacy a day off - with the exception of the last phrase, that's a really piss poor statement. I do like the last part though - who the hell wants an average web developer working on their job? I want the best people I can find working with me. And if you look around, the best CF folks have gravitated towards a framework (even Simon, with his anti-framework frame...errr..methodology ;) ). There's probably a reason for this: Responsible, mature developers understand that different toolsets are appropriate for different types of work. If you're going to back a simple one-page contact form with Model-Glue (or Mach-II), it's rather like cutting butter with a chainsaw - it might be kind of fun, but messy in the end. Those of us who have moved forward and gone past the simple CRUD list / detail view apps of 1999 require tools that properly separate business logic from presentation, meaning that you could never simply open a page in dreamweaver anymore and edit it - unless you wanted to have to duplicate the same logic across every other page / service / API / interface that needed to utilize it. Model-Glue, Mach-II, and MVC Fusebox are such tools. We recently tried out Model-glue and built a test site using it. It now takes 10 times longer to maintain this site or make changes than it would have done if it was using my framework. The original developer liked it as he comes from an OO background. I then gave the task of applying style and layout to another developer, and she had a mess of a time trying to work it all out. That's a piss-poor example (sorry to use the phrase again, but it's just so on-target for this thread). If I wrote a book in French and than gave it to an English-only proofreader, it's likely that the result would be bad. That's pretty much what you did, taking an MG/OO app and giving it to another developer. If it's just a simple test site, zip it up and send it over to me, I'd be happy to take a look/make pointers. A very simple framework does the same job as as complex one like model-glue Model-Glue is a *very* simple framework. It even has some built-in limitations where I chose simplicity over power. Where people goof is when they try to make things more complex than they need to be. Heck, you ever seen Struts? Now there's a world of pain... .. So, are frameworks like MG/M2/FB necessary for a simple web app? No, of course not. Is writing simple web apps going to be enough to keep developers competitive and employed as we move into a world where the same app must be web, mobile, RIA/Flex/Ajax, and provide a headless API? Probably not. Frameworks like MG/M2/FB are simply tools good developers - those members of the development community who do work that's moved past writing the Nth iteration of a web-based contact manager - will recognize as being appropriate for Web-based presentation of applications that are reusable for multiple clients mediums. If there's a sector of the web/ColdFusion community who never wants to move past the CF5 mentality, or wants to continue writing spaghetti open one page in dreamweaver code, I'm more than happy to let you be, because I don't want to deal with that type of work or application ever again. To be fair, please realize that there's another section of the same community that does work that requires tools like MVC frameworks, and we're not using/creating them just to make your lives miserable; there's no reason to accuse us of overcomplicating your lives just because you don't get our tools. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237251 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Matt, the first language I ever learnt was Machine Language/Assembler, so be careful with your assumptions. Russ -Original Message- From: Matt Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 15:24 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Be careful Joe, you may be speaking over Russ' head. Acronyms like 'API' are foriegn to the 'open a page in DreamWeaver/HomeSite and edit it' type of people. I think the main point is that Joe and Russ agree on the idea that frameworks are overkill for a simple web site. However, I would make the argument that the code re-usability that frameworks encourage may make even simple websites worth doing in an OO/Framework style. It seems more than one client wants an event calendar, an email/contact database, etc. And of course an admin to control these and other content. Building stand-alone service layers for each of these types of things can make life easier and code reuse more accessible. As for the frustrated designer, I would have to wonder what Russ' view pages actually looked like. I find changing the css and layout to be easier with a framework as I'm not wading through a bunch of queries or switch statements or what not. And I'm able to reuse partial-page views more easily, so a change to something in one place affects all - this is a good thing. My 2 cents. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237252 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I know plenty of people who do not comply to the *Isaac Dealey* way of thinking, and they all have very good jobs, oh wait, so do I, now how did that happen? russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 18:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237253 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Frameworks are for programing what religion is for life: If you're not able to have a moral life without fearing hell or God, then better take a religion. Some people stop their car at a red light because they fear the cop at the corner, others just understand that one cannot have cars crossing in both directions in the same time. Some programers need frameworks designed by others to write efficient code and reuse it, others have an elementary skill and enough background to work this way anyway without having to call it a frame work. -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237254 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
The best answer so far Claude :-) -Original Message- From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 23:01 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Frameworks are for programing what religion is for life: If you're not able to have a moral life without fearing hell or God, then better take a religion. Some people stop their car at a red light because they fear the cop at the corner, others just understand that one cannot have cars crossing in both directions in the same time. Some programers need frameworks designed by others to write efficient code and reuse it, others have an elementary skill and enough background to work this way anyway without having to call it a frame work. -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237255 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I agree with Russ. I think Isaac was being a bit too general about it. Heck, I must be the only web developer that doesn't know .JavaNet, but I'm not always scrounging for scraps. I don't mind picking up scraps every now and then. Being able to grab a few quick bucks for some one-off mom-n-pop web sites are great for some extra spending cash. ;^) M!ke -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions I know plenty of people who do not comply to the *Isaac Dealey* way of thinking, and they all have very good jobs, oh wait, so do I, now how did that happen? russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 18:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237257 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
+1 -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 5:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions The best answer so far Claude :-) -Original Message- From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 23:01 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Frameworks are for programing what religion is for life: If you're not able to have a moral life without fearing hell or God, then better take a religion. Some people stop their car at a red light because they fear the cop at the corner, others just understand that one cannot have cars crossing in both directions in the same time. Some programers need frameworks designed by others to write efficient code and reuse it, others have an elementary skill and enough background to work this way anyway without having to call it a frame work. -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237258 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I know very few CF developers who know JAVA, that mostly stems form people who were programmers before learning CF or have a programming background, so I think your putting yourself down there if you think you're the only one who doesn't do it, in fact the majority of the people on this very list don't do Java. I also know many freelance developer and development companies who do high profile government work and work for very large/rich organisations, and none of them use any OO frameworks, most of them use their own or fusebox. And they are certainly not picking up scraps. It really depends if you job requires any of these things as to whether you spend time learning it. I would love to have the time to sit down and properly learn Java, .NET, every other framework, but alas I don't even have time to spend posting on these lists very often as I work hard, I only get to do it at the evening and on weekends. Once upon a time I used to be one of the people that was on the list all day answering everyones questions instead of working ;-) At the end of the day, it's each to his own, I have my opinion and I couldn't care less who likes what framework at the end of the day, it's not gonna make me lose any sleep or effect my work, but the problem with people like Isaac is that they seem to forget that a discussion list is for discussion and people will have differing opinions, and if you cannot accept that and are not open to it and just want to shove your opinion down peoples throats and bolster your ego, then your better off joining a user group or fan club where everyone likes the same thing as you. -- russ -Original Message- From: Dawson, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 April 2006 00:05 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions I agree with Russ. I think Isaac was being a bit too general about it. Heck, I must be the only web developer that doesn't know .JavaNet, but I'm not always scrounging for scraps. I don't mind picking up scraps every now and then. Being able to grab a few quick bucks for some one-off mom-n-pop web sites are great for some extra spending cash. ;^) M!ke -Original Message- From: Snake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 4:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions I know plenty of people who do not comply to the *Isaac Dealey* way of thinking, and they all have very good jobs, oh wait, so do I, now how did that happen? russ -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 18:17 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237260 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Then everyone else can have the scraps that are left over after developers who've taken the time to stretch themselves have taken all the best jobs. It's really that simple. I know plenty of people who do not comply to the *Isaac Dealey* way of thinking, and they all have very good jobs, oh wait, so do I, now how did that happen? You got yourselves into a vanishing niche while there was still room for new people to enter that space. As the years progress, your current niche will continue to dwindle. It will of course never completely vanish, however, if you don't stretch yourself you'll have to live with the value of your skills diminishing as the skill-sets of other more agressive developers continue to evolve. More advanced developers will bring the price of their skills down until it becomes accessible to your clients, at which point it will start to devalue your skill set. This is all very basic economics. Here's another analogy. America, the land of the free -- and here at one point in time, farming was one of those american dreams wherein a person could have the land and the life they wanted. Not so much anymore because large corporate agro-businesses have pretty well taken over the agricultural market. Today's farmers are doing well to be surviving, _IF_ they survive against the competition of corporate agro-business. A large number of the farmers who are still surviving have joined co-operative farming groups in order to help themselves compete in what is a vanishing niche for them. The difference with us is that every single one of us has the ability to choose to be that person who is continually becoming, by stretching ourselves to learn new things and make ourselves more valuable. So while there's very little a farmer can do about their vanishing niche, asside from stop farming, we can all choose to stay in our current field of work by adapting our niche. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237262 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Does that mean I have to upgrade from CF 4.5.2? ;o) Eventually. :) For that matter, CF 5 isn't even avialable for sale anymore. If nothing else, the fact that it becomes continually more difficult to find support for the older versions is a liability, particularly since new versions of operating systems are increasingly likely to be incompatible with a legacy CF server install. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237263 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I know very few CF developers who know JAVA, that mostly stems form people who were programmers before learning CF or have a programming background, so I think your putting yourself down there if you think you're the only one who doesn't do it, in fact the majority of the people on this very list don't do Java. I also know many freelance developer and development companies who do high profile government work and work for very large/rich organisations, and none of them use any OO frameworks, most of them use their own or fusebox. And they are certainly not picking up scraps. Sure, there are lots of people who are doing well in that niche today, and there will be tomorrow, but there are fewer of them every year. We work in an environment of planned obsolescence -- we create new things, knowing very well that they will be supplanted in years to come. This is the nature of programming. A good developer needs to be constantly becoming, otherwise you have to face the fact that if you don't continue to learn, your skill is gradually devalued by simple economics and your niche disappears. I struggle with this myself actually, because it's the one thing I really dislike about programming work, the knowledge that what I do today will be basically irrelevant in a few years time, as compared to the works of philosophers and artists which are as valuable today as they were hundreds or thousands of years ago. I would like to think that the work of my hand would have lasting meaning, but I have to accept that programming work is not, no matter how innovative or productive it may be. It really depends if you job requires any of these things as to whether you spend time learning it. I would love to have the time to sit down and properly learn Java, .NET, every other framework, but alas I don't even have time to spend posting on these lists very often as I work hard, I only get to do it at the evening and on weekends. Once upon a time I used to be one of the people that was on the list all day answering everyones questions instead of working ;-) A solid understanding of OO principals, encapsulation and extensibility are key elements to my having extra time to spend being an Adobe Community Expert and helping people learn new things. The rule manager article I contributed to a recent issue of CFDJ and later presented at cf.Objective are good examples. My presentation skills need some work, I'll admit that, and I found a number of things that I could have done quite a bit better at cf.Objective, however, the material in question is something that can save anyone who has more than one client lots of time. The rule manager facade is a good way to let OO encapsulation reduce the number of customization points in an application that will be used for multiple clients. Going back to the example of Site Manageware, we planned to use that same concept (although they weren't sold on XML as a storage medium) to eliminate the customization point for commissions paid to sales staff. Their existing system was rather problematic -- a rule manager in that spot would / will (I assume they're still planning to implement it) save them large amounts of time in the configuration of rules for sales commissions. In my case I wrote the rule manager facade once, and have implemented it now twice. Writing the initial code for the facade took several weeks. Each implementation has taken a few hours, and the result of those implementations makes the applications they're in far more flexible than comparable applications. Compare Blogs onTap to BlogCFC (not saying it's bad, just comparing) -- out of the box, BlogCFC would have to be customized if you wanted to limit the amount of time a person could comment on a blog entry (don't ask me why that's desirable, I just remember seeing someone mention it iirc with regard to Blogger). With Blogs onTap all you have to do is create a new blog, edit the comment rule (in your browser) and add a single criteria to indicate that comments can be posted within X number of days from the date the article was published. I didn't really plan that, I just knew after having implemented the rule manager that it allowed you to do that out of the box. I also am planning another rule manager implementation in the contact manager application I'm working on currently. Every time I implement it, I'm trading a few hours of implementation for what could otherwise be several weeks of development work (or a long chain of death of a thousand cuts style change requests over the course of the coming years). At the end of the day, it's each to his own, I have my opinion and I couldn't care less who likes what framework at the end of the day, Then why did you bather to post an inflamatory message about Model-Glue at all? What were you trying to contribute? I'm really not trying to be pejorative here. This isn't a stab. I genuinely don't understand your motivation if you're really this disinterested in any
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I agree with Russ. I think Isaac was being a bit too general about it. Heck, I must be the only web developer that doesn't know .JavaNet, but I'm not always scrounging for scraps. Probably being a bit more caustic about it than I could have been. :) I also apparently didn't do a good job of putting the scraps comment into proper context. My intent was to indicate the need for growth and career development. I was not trying to say people who don't use frameworks today have jobs that suck. I don't mind picking up scraps every now and then. Being able to grab a few quick bucks for some one-off mom-n-pop web sites are great for some extra spending cash. Those one-off brochureware type projects really kinda grate on my nerves personally... It's just difficult for me to switch gears from the way I work where I try to encapsulate _everything_ for future use and then back up and do something that's pure hammer and nail time because it's so small. It would probably serve me better to be able to have a more flexible attitude about it. :) But personally I just find myself wishing I could do something to make it more extensible, partly because I'm always afraid the brochureware site is going to grow into something more complicated. There's an old saying that inside every small program is a big program trying to get out. :) I have taken those projects very occasionally in the last 8 years, but in general I try very hard not to need them. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237266 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Matt, the first language I ever learnt was Machine Language/Assembler, so be careful with your assumptions. Oh, so you should already be familiar with the vanishing niche problem. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237267 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
-Original Message- From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 April 2006 23:01 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Frameworks are for programing what religion is for life: If you're not able to have a moral life without fearing hell or God, then better take a religion. Some people stop their car at a red light because they fear the cop at the corner, others just understand that one cannot have cars crossing in both directions in the same time. Some programers need frameworks designed by others to write efficient code and reuse it, others have an elementary skill and enough background to work this way anyway without having to call it a frame work. Or more commonly they have or use a framework and simply haven't named or published it. :) I think there are definately practical advantages to a framework, though it often depends entirely on the framework you choose. The onTap framework mostly provides features that aren't available with other frameworks like true language abstraction for sql queries. This isn't just something that other frameworks don't provide, this is something that programmers don't do in general, whether they use a framework or not. The advantage is that my applications work on SQL Server, Access, MySQL or Oracle without modifying any of the code. Since I plan to sell these applications to people who use different databases, that's lots of maintenance time saved on my part. There are plenty of other examples. Off the top of my head, the prefuseaction and postfuseaction features in Fusebox 4 are really sweet for saving development time since they apply to multiple requests with only a single code-point (as opposed to an equivalent include template which would have many codepoints where it's included). So in both of these cases there is a pragmatic advantage to using either framework which is demonstrably not religious in nature. I will grant that members of different framework communities can and often do become somewhat religious about their preferred framework. That doesn't mean there aren't practical advantages, and we have specific examples of them. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237268 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I think there are definately practical advantages to a framework, though it often depends entirely on the framework you choose. Frameworks are just like underware: it is important to wear some, but the most important is to wear your own... -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237269 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
No, you can stay with CF4.5.2. you and all the other people developing with WIndows3.1 and Macintosh 512K machines. Have you tried printing with a laser printer yet? They're pretty cool. Where do you get your line printer ribbons from these days? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/9/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does that mean I have to upgrade from CF 4.5.2? ;o) Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237270 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Frameworks are just like underware Sorry, I think it is spelled underwear ;-) -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237271 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Great post man, and it really touches on something that I don't think enough people really concentrate on. Thanks, Tim. I'm really not looking for accolades, but I appreciate complements. :) In all honesty I think if I'd thought more about it before I posted my first response in this thread that I might have just decided not to post at all since it seems to have been started as the Nth iteration of the whole religous frameworks suck - no they don't thread. I should have known better. :) But I didn't, so... I just hope that my comments are found to be practical for at least one or two of the lurkers. Then I won't feel too bad about it. :) Something that seems to also be a problem for a lot of junior developers or graphics people, is the simple fact that to stay cutting adage as a programmer, you must be constantly doing professional development, constantly learning the new platform, application server, design pattern, or technology. As an asside, the telecomm industry tends to contain some of the slowest adopters of new technologies. I have no idea why this is, you'd think they'd be anxious to at least experiment with new tech, but they really don't seem to be. I've worked on a number of telco projects and they've all been spit-and-duct-taped workflow apps. Sadly, they seem to frequently involve reproducing work that's been done a million times over for other departments of the same company. So the long and the short of it is that if you're looking for an industry that won't stretch you (or offer you very many raises), telcos are a good way to go. For somebody who can live on the salary a telco offers, it doesn't seem like a bad job honestly, and I might have even gone that route if I could afford it. The drawback really is that they're fickle and there's always the potential that a merger or some other organizational change could cause the job to suddenly vanish through no fault of your own, so you really need to make sure you can save up money on their salary in case you need it. It's true of any job really, but in my limited experience telcos have been more organizationally fickle than other companies and while there's plenty of room for them to restructure and make themselves leaner, there's not so much room for telcos to grow. It's not a closed market, but it's not a real growth industry either. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237272 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
It's like all things...as long as Windows 2000 Server and CF 4.5.2 keep providing everything I need, there's no need to change. However, at some point, there will come a time when change will be necessary and I'll adapt. I'm much more interested in how to convince the small businesses and churches that I work with that there is real value in using the Internet, email, etc., to achieve their goals. I have plenty of work to do (too much right now), but I get frustrated when I personally know small business owners who struggle to survive, yet won't adapt their work habits to include use of new resources. They complain about competition from the Internet, yet won't embrace its value for themselves...drives me crazy. Many of the clients I work with and build dynamic sites for have never even had a dynamic site at all. So what CF 4.5.2 can do for them is light years ahead of what they're used to. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind embracing some of the newer technologies...AJAX looks great as does FLEX...it would really be useful for the web software I work on, and even for the web sites, but every time I try to utilize a new technology, it places too many demands on my time to get up to speed. I usually stay as busy as I can get already. But, anyway...I'll move out of the era of the dinosaurs eventually. I'm keeping my eye out for the competition so I won't become *extinct*. :o) Rick -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions Does that mean I have to upgrade from CF 4.5.2? ;o) Eventually. :) ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237273 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Frameworks are just like underware Sorry, I think it is spelled underwear ;-) Yep, underware would be ... I guess software under software... so... a framework. :P Or possibly a platform. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237275 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
I think there are definately practical advantages to a framework, though it often depends entirely on the framework you choose. Frameworks are just like underware: it is important to wear some, but the most important is to wear your own... So, no underwear swapping for Claude. :) s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237274 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Well...I happen to like my Windows 3.1 machine and my 9-pin dot matrix printer... I ran out of line printer ribbons, but still have a huge supply of typewriter ribbons. (I bought a ton at a clearance...) 512K? Are you talking RAM? Since when did computers become capable of handling that much memory! Boy, I am living under a rock... Rick -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 9:28 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions No, you can stay with CF4.5.2. you and all the other people developing with WIndows3.1 and Macintosh 512K machines. Have you tried printing with a laser printer yet? They're pretty cool. Where do you get your line printer ribbons from these days? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/9/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does that mean I have to upgrade from CF 4.5.2? ;o) Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237276 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Thanks Rick, I appreciate your nice comments. I started with CSS a couple of years ago, and while the learning curve for that was pretty steep too, it was a liberating experience too. Separating code from look and feel made everything simpler.The code is smaller, more straightforward. Downloads faster, easier to maintain.No more searching though nested tables looking for the cell I'm trying to modify. A lot of people try to do things that are far too complex to start off with.No sense trying to emulate the Sydney Morning Herald site (http://www.smh.com.au) on your first go. One of the tricks of developing a web app with CSS is to do the code first. THEN do the styling. And DONT do the styling using IE.Do the styling using a standards-compliant browser (I use Firefox), and THEN go back to IE and tweak it to get around the bugs. Thankfully we're to be released from the IE bugs eventually when IE6 fades from the picture, except for Rick Faircloth who is still using Netscape 2. In fact it was the feeling of liberation from a millstone when I learned CSS that made me convinced that OO ColdFusion techniques were worth the effort to learn. As to tools, in theory you don't need any. Notepad is all you NEED. Everything else is merely to make some things easier and quicker. For my CSS development I use TopStyle.There's a free version I think.(or at least there was. Not sure if there still is) The main reason I use it is because of syntax checking, code completion (keeps braces balanced) and automatic colour coding. And there's a nice sample view so you can see what each selector looks like - when you get larger stylesheets it can be tricky finding the selector you want to modify. For web development I use Dreamweaver8 but there are several very good editors. I use dreamweaver almost exclusively in code view, and i have an extensive library of snippets,I have only used design view on the day when I installed Dreamweaver, to have a look around the product. I have used split view a few times only.I looked at CFEclipse a while back, and it seems to be excellent too, but in my case I had a problem installing it and while the CFEclipse community was extremely helpful and patient I had a deadline to meet and it wasnt working properly before I had to work on my project. So I went back to Dreamweaver. I think CFEclipse would be a good environment to develop with. I find the features of Dreamweaver I use (which are also in CFEclipse I think) are the snippets, the code completion, the syntax hints, source formatting, and the inbuilt FTP. I think one of the most underrated aspects is colour coding. You immediately see if you've typed a single quote instead of a double or forgotten to close a bracket pair. The new Dreamweaver8 has some nice new tweaks too. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/9/06, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Mike... I see from the source on afpwebworks.com that you're using CSS as your layout method. Looks nice. So you've tackled OO development and CSS, too? I'm impressed...the CSS just looks so aggravating to make work. I'm on one of the main css lists and I see those folks spending vasts amount of time just trying to make a layout work, when tables always work...and across browsers, too... I just wonder if tableless design is worth the effort. Also, what's your toolset for doing your development (OO) and design (CSS) work? And anything else you use... Thanks for the comments... Rick ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237277 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. (And it's still Netscape 1.5 :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Mike Kear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 10:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions Thanks Rick, I appreciate your nice comments. I started with CSS a couple of years ago, and while the learning curve for that was pretty steep too, it was a liberating experience too. Separating code from look and feel made everything simpler.The code is smaller, more straightforward. Downloads faster, easier to maintain.No more searching though nested tables looking for the cell I'm trying to modify. A lot of people try to do things that are far too complex to start off with.No sense trying to emulate the Sydney Morning Herald site (http://www.smh.com.au) on your first go. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237278 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Frankly, I'd say that not using a decent framework is like continuing to rely on your mother to buy tightie-whities, when the rest of the development world has blown past you into boxers (or boxer briefs). That's not to say there aren't good developers who are an exception to the rule and go commando (Simon, you reading this thread yet?). On 4/8/06, Claude Schneegans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there are definately practical advantages to a framework, though it often depends entirely on the framework you choose. Frameworks are just like underware: it is important to wear some, but the most important is to wear your own... -- ___ REUSE CODE! Use custom tags; See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm (Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237280 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions
didn't see a reply, so, bump! I can try my hand though... 4) Yes, from what I can tell, it's a pain. Wait for Model-Glue 2 with includes. Also, I suppose it may work to do XML includes... worth a shot, huh? Check this page: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/07/31/xinclude.html 5) No, you can make a controller for every event-handler if you like. I make one for every grouping or category. Just add another controller tag and cfc. 6) Check out Ray's coldfusioncookbook.com site code... it's on his blog somewhere, search for it. (sorry if this is a dupe - we're having connection problems today) -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/6/06, Nick Han [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone help me answer these questions? 1) I set 'refresh' to false in the config block, but it doesn't seem to work. The framework keeps reloading on every request. 2) As same above for 'debug'. 3) There can only be one ModelGlue.xml file per application. Is this correct? 4) If #3 is true, ModelGlue.xml file size can get really large. Wouldn't this be a pain to manage or maintain tons of event-handlers? 5) Are all CFC calls invoked through /controller/controller.cfc, which has references of business or other CFCs? 6) Lastly, would someone, who has a fairly large site in production that is using MG, be willing to give me a copy of ModelGlue.xml to look at? Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237211 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work, as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. Russ -Original Message- From: Nathan Strutz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 April 2006 23:34 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Newbie Model Glue Questions didn't see a reply, so, bump! I can try my hand though... 4) Yes, from what I can tell, it's a pain. Wait for Model-Glue 2 with includes. Also, I suppose it may work to do XML includes... worth a shot, huh? Check this page: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/07/31/xinclude.html 5) No, you can make a controller for every event-handler if you like. I make one for every grouping or category. Just add another controller tag and cfc. 6) Check out Ray's coldfusioncookbook.com site code... it's on his blog somewhere, search for it. (sorry if this is a dupe - we're having connection problems today) -nathan strutz http://www.dopefly.com/ On 4/6/06, Nick Han [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone help me answer these questions? 1) I set 'refresh' to false in the config block, but it doesn't seem to work. The framework keeps reloading on every request. 2) As same above for 'debug'. 3) There can only be one ModelGlue.xml file per application. Is this correct? 4) If #3 is true, ModelGlue.xml file size can get really large. Wouldn't this be a pain to manage or maintain tons of event-handlers? 5) Are all CFC calls invoked through /controller/controller.cfc, which has references of business or other CFCs? 6) Lastly, would someone, who has a fairly large site in production that is using MG, be willing to give me a copy of ModelGlue.xml to look at? Thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237214 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Newbie Model Glue Questions
Model-glue and similar frameworks is great if you want to obfuscate your code and keep your client bound to you for any ongoing work Not so much. There are too many people using Fusebox, Model Glue or Mach-II for that to be any reason to keep the programmer you have currently if they are doing a bad job for you. On the other hand there's the onTap framework, which is a bit different and as of yet doesn't have a large developer base. If you only ever look at the code then sure it's liable to take a while to decypher, however nearly every jot and divet of the framework is heavily documented with both component references and tutorials, so if there is ever any question about the way the framework handle's a particular piece of code, you can find out how it works pretty quickly. This is the way programming is supposed to work to begin with is it not? ColdFusion is an easy language to implement, but it's always helped that the documentation for the language has been thorough. If the documentation doesn't suffice, you can always email me and ask and I can update the docs. :) I'm sure the same goes for all the other frameworks. as only developers who already understand the framework and OO will be able to understand it, which will cut most average web developers. That's also changing. The increase in frameworks usage in the community at large means that not learning them is likely to reduce your job options, rather than the other way around. Some employers who use Fusebox have turned down potential employees without an understanding of Fusebox for a while now, so with the addition of several more frameworks in popular and more frequent use, this situation will only become more common. Learn to work with them now and be prepared, because employers will expect them. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:237217 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
