Re: How do you use D?
For instance, D is my favorite language, and I try to promote it as much as I can (reddit, stackoverflow, even on the go-nuts google groups). But professionally I still use C++ (#3 TIOBE), PHP (#7), Go (#16) and now Dart (#20). Not D. Despite Go and Dart are very recent "post-D" languages, people are already starting to use them a lot these days. Whether you trust or not these "pseudo" rankings, they are probably already more popular than D, despite they are still in their 1.x version. That's sad, because the same developers who now use Go (including me) could have started to use D instead. But they didn't. Obviously Google's great support and marketing help a lot, but most developers are not as dumb as you may think. They just use what solve their daily problems. In the end it's often as simple as that. That's why now I always use D to develop my command-line tools. It gets the job done quickly and easily. Same for Go and Dart. Despite I don't really like them actually.
Re: How do you use D?
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 06:04:57 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: Very interesting post. My bachelor's thesis was a expert system for stock trading implemented with Borland C++ 1.0, and D would have been a good fit as well if had been an option in 1989, so I understand why you think that financial development will make D popular. I don't know that I would say finance will make D popular but it's one domain that I know well where I think it can be useful. Popularity isn't only a good thing either. I think the focus on Go, Rust etc as a competitive threat is misplaced. If they do something well and it fits us we should without shame copy it, but better. But just because they are the focus of attention amongst some communities doesn't mean we should otherwise worry about what they are doing. But that's the exact opposite of what trending languages do at the moment (Go, Kotlin, etc). They care to solve the basic problems of the casual developer : implementing desktop, mobile or web applications. Why try to beat them at their own game, or even spend energy wondering about it. The DNA of the community mostly isn't interested in solving the problems of the casual developer in the same way. So unless it changes then it's a tough game to expect to beat them on criteria they set. Looks at the compounded rate of growth of dmd daily downloads. If it were a stock, I wouldn't be short it, because it's in an uptrend and far from overbought. Many other contexts you would even call that explosive growth. Not the most interesting jobs maybe, but that's what pays the bill of many of us, the "less skilled" developers who are not engineers. I guess you only need one job. And there is share of market and share of mind. It's much easier for talented people to be recognised as such in a smaller community than a vast one.
addr2line not showing line numbers
Title pretty much says it all. True whether I use -g or -gc, for both
dmd and ldc2.
gdb, for some reason, does manage to show line numbers, but only sort of:
$ cat d.d
import std.stdio;
void main() {
writeln("Hello, world");
}
$ dmd -g -gc d.d
$ gdb d
GNU gdb (Ubuntu 7.12.50.20170314-0ubuntu1.1) 7.12.50.20170314-git
Copyright (C) 2017 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Type "show copying"
and "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "x86_64-linux-gnu".
Type "show configuration" for configuration details.
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
I'm one of the people currently working on the D intellij plugin(same username on github). We have a fairly comprehensive CONTRIBUTING.md here: https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/blob/develop/CONTRIBUTING.md Currently one of the problems I'm having is that D is really complex(I assume everyone else trying to make a good D IDE as this problem). This means features that are deceptively simple, like goto declaration are quite complex. One thing that could really help with this project would be a contributor with experience on the D compiler, which could help with features like goto declaration and code completion. Additionally I suspect that we have mountains of bugs, so it would also be helpful to get lots of user testing.
Re: How do you use D?
Very interesting post. My bachelor's thesis was a expert system for stock trading implemented with Borland C++ 1.0, and D would have been a good fit as well if had been an option in 1989, so I understand why you think that financial development will make D popular. But that's the exact opposite of what trending languages do at the moment (Go, Kotlin, etc). They care to solve the basic problems of the casual developer : implementing desktop, mobile or web applications. Not the most interesting jobs maybe, but that's what pays the bill of many of us, the "less skilled" developers who are not engineers.
Re: How do you use D?
On Friday, 28 July 2017 at 14:58:01 UTC, Ali wrote: While the Orgs using D page is very nice ... I hoping to hear more personal stories ... So How do you use D? In work, (key projects or smaller side projects) in your side project, (github, links please) just to learn something new? (I would easily argue that learning D will make you a better C++ programmer, maybe not the most efficient way, but I a sure it i very effective) Did you introduce D to your work place? How? What challenges did you face? What is you D setup at work, which compiler, which IDE? And any other fun facts you may want to share :) I started programming in 1983: BBC BASIC, 6502 assembler, Z80 assembler. I learnt to program C on an Amstrad PCW running CP/M, and compiler I used had K&R style declarations. Then I discovered economics, and my life took a different course. I moved into trading and managing money, but I always programmed on the side to help me solve investment and business problems. Kept it quiet because programming was for a long time low status and clashed with what people expected to see in a money manager. Late 2013 I recognised that the way our business used technology was completely broken. The only way to make the most of technology is to combine an understanding of investing, financial instruments, the investment business, and technology in one mind. But where am I going to find a guy like that? So I looked in the mirror and realised I had to brush up my skills. So I started building tools to help me invest. My friends mostly thought it was a crazy course of action, because it's rare if you leave investing even temporarily to return to it, and I love markets, but sometimes the direct approach isn't the right one. We're drowning in data but don't have good tools to make sense of it. I learnt python and cython, but kept looking, because I wanted to have my cake and eat it. Why can I not have all of productivity, performance, static typing/correctness, abstraction, and code readability - I don't think I should have to choose just a couple, and I am not going to. That led me to D in 2014. At school they used to ask us if everyone else jumped out of the window would you do it too? And it's a profitable approach in financial markets to develop and learn to trust your own judgement of things. If a highly respected and very knowledgeable economist tells you "you do realise that there is no basis in economic theory for what you are suggesting", you need to be able to revisit your thinking, see what you might be missing, but in the end trust your own judgement over that of the putative expert. And he subsequently wrote a very impressive explanation after the fact of how what "couldn't be justified in theory" did in fact happen. And it's a bit similar with programming language choices and such. Its way better to appeal to people who make up their own mind and bear the consequences then to those who have to cover their behinds by getting the right ticks in the boxes because the are never going to be earlier adopters except through some unfortunate accident - because you also don't want such people as early adopters! Since then, one thing led to another, and I ended up hiring a few people from the community to help me as consultant developers. Maybe a bit more than 10% of Team Phobos, based on a simple calculation. I have also ended up running technology, amongst other things, for a decent size hedge fund. I am using D for the project I started beforehand, and we are starting to explore its usefulness in the rest of the firm for some core analytics. It pays to start small and build on early successes. Has D been good for me? What have been the consequences of the French Revolution? In both cases it's too early to say with utter confidence since life is complicated and things are not always what they seem to be in the moment, but I have a view on the latter, and I think the answer to the former is definitely yes. Finance used to be relatively at the leading edge. The industry got a bit too fat, it hired the wrong people as it expanded too quickly, and then after the crisis people had other things to worry about - first survival, and then an exploding burden of compliance. At one big bank even the compliance people complain about the number of compliance people they have. On top of that, there's so much legacy systems that it can be very difficult to do anything creative or new. So as an industry we fell behind a bit, and when you go through a cycle like that if becomes somewhat self-reinforcing. To turn things around you need to hire very good people, but it's not so easy to find very good people who are willing to work with the people who created and tolerated the mess in the first place. But it can be done, and I think based on a view from afar that the banks will do better on this front than they have been. For
Re: newCTFE Status August 2017
On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 at 21:27:32 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote: [ ... ] I am quite surprised. newCTFE comes far enough now, that it tries to interpret it's own interpreter (which is CTFEable) Of course it fails in doing so since we do not yet handle newing arrays or associative arrays. Though as soon as we do support newing arrays and remove the need for associative arrays from the interpret_ function, we should indeed be able to self-host (so to speak.)
Re: How do you use D?
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 03:30:00 UTC, Laeeth Isharc wrote: I've suggested exactly the same "easy-to-learn super-powered stronly-typed javascript" and "efficient web server development" advertising approachs to the D leadership, using a more "Python.org"-like website. [snip] Good long read.
Re: How do you use D?
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 21:31:49 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote: It is more about marketing. Maybe Go is not a perfect language, maybe not even a good one, but it's sold so good because of a good marketing So, calling D a "better C++" is a bad advertisement. But if you rename it to 'Script', for example "DatScript" and sell it as "better, statically typed JavaScript dialect which compiles into fast native executables" it will became #1 language on GitHub in no time. +1 I've suggested exactly the same "easy-to-learn super-powered stronly-typed javascript" and "efficient web server development" advertising approachs to the D leadership, using a more "Python.org"-like website. Maybe it's because this change would be much too radical, but I've been told that the "Better C++" slogan won't change, despite D could easily be "tweaked" to eat a significant part of Go/Dart's market shares. And I'm not especially convinced that many C++ developers are currently rushing towards D because of the current website. For instance, I've personally chosen D *only* it was much better than JavaScript/Node.js, not because it was better than C++, that I still have to use for game and mobile development. Still waiting that somebody explains me how to _easily_ use D with Unreal Engine, Cocos2D-X, etc... ;) I know I'm not the general case, but this still proves that "some" C++ developers won't switch to D for long because they are too tied to their ecosystem. In open source, and indeed in entrepreneurial corporations, the way to persuade people is to create the shift you advocate, at least in a small way, so people can see what your early start could become. Code wins arguments, as they say at Facebook, and not just code but documentation, business plans etc too. Its work to write it, but on the other hand my experience has been that work is rarely truly wasted. It might seem so at the time, but for example work I did to persuade somebody that didn't want to listen, and where it seemed like I was pointlessly banging my head against the wall, has ended up being very valuable, even in dollar terms a few years later. It's not always rational to be excessively calculating about risk reward in the face of genuine, radical uncertainty when the risk is not that bad. I agree with you that the benefits of D are not perfectly well communicated to people who aren't C++ programmers looking for salvation. I had a discussion just last week about that, explaining that D isn't just something they mostly fits only large data sets where performance is key. And in particular it's a cultural challenge because people have become resigned to the idea of different languages for different purposes, and to a large extent D doesn't fit the mental schema people have. Nothing much changes in life day to day, and changes that seem to be big often unfold slowly for a long time before being noticed. The financial crisis unfolding began in Feb 2007 at the latest, but it didn't feel like that to most people at the time. Similarly, compare D documentation today to that of early 2014 (when I first look at D). Plenty of it was all perfectly clear if you had a more academic training in computing, but if not then it wasn't the friendliest. I tried to persuade one chap who was helping me between jobs to learn D, and he was absolutely terrified of it, to a good extent because of the docs! And it's also because people are used to complexity being hidden from them and things being made very easy. Since D often involves paying a price upfront to make future things easier, perhaps it's worth bearing in mind that there's a coupling between the degree of development of the tooling and how polished the docs should be. If you make it so easy to learn D that you draw people who are utterly stuck when they hit dependency problems with dub, that may not be ideal either. Ie an implicit question of truth in advertising. And the situation with docs changed over time. One recent change is thanks to Seb Wilzbach who introduced runnable examples generated automatically from unit tests. If you look at his pull request it wasn't welcomed entirely with open arms in the beginning because the benefits weren't clear (and some other reasons I forgot). So if you think we should have friendlier docs appealing to non systems programmers, why not write a mock up so others can see. It needn't be either or, because you can have an easy or advanced channel from front page. And it's worth not alienating those who want to go straight to the meat of things - there's nothing more frustrating than a system that talks down to you or breaks things down into little pieces when you're quite used to slaughtering and butchering dinner for yourself, thank you very much... I really think there's a limit in how much sense it makes to think about D marketshare against other programming languages. I
Re: Did dmd forget how to read?
On Sunday, 6 August 2017 at 00:22:45 UTC, Cym13 wrote: On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 23:54:45 UTC, Johnson Jones wrote: main.d(157): Error: no property 'SetCursor' for type 'gdk.Window.Window', did you mean 'getCursor'? um... anyone see bug? It's there, I promise. "setCursor" exists, but "SetCursor" doesn't (or your "bug" depends on code that you wrote and didn't share). I believe as both "setCursor" and "getCursor" are one character away from "SetCursor" dmd took the first one in alphabetic order or something. No need to panic ;) No one is panicking, so you can stop panicking that you think they are panicking. The point is that setCursor is much closer to SetCursor than getCursor. It should prioritize case differences first. SETCURSOR should still match setcursor better than getcursor or getCURSOR or whatever. But I'll get you a ascii star for realizing the issue /\ < > \/
Re: Did dmd forget how to read?
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 23:54:45 UTC, Johnson Jones wrote: main.d(157): Error: no property 'SetCursor' for type 'gdk.Window.Window', did you mean 'getCursor'? um... anyone see bug? It's there, I promise. "setCursor" exists, but "SetCursor" doesn't (or your "bug" depends on code that you wrote and didn't share). I believe as both "setCursor" and "getCursor" are one character away from "SetCursor" dmd took the first one in alphabetic order or something. No need to panic ;)
Did dmd forget how to read?
main.d(157): Error: no property 'SetCursor' for type 'gdk.Window.Window', did you mean 'getCursor'? um... anyone see bug? It's there, I promise.
Re: newCTFE Status August 2017
On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 at 21:27:32 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote:
[ ... ]
The following code does now compile with newCTFE,
and it's a little faster then the old interpreter.
Not much though since that is not a pathological case.
pure nothrow @nogc @safe uint[256][8] genTables32(uint
polynomial)
{
uint[256][8] res = 0u;
{
int __key479 = 0;
int __limit480 = 256;
for (; __key479 < __limit480; __key479 += 1)
{
int i = __key479;
uint crc = cast(uint)i;
{
int __key481 = 0;
int __limit482 = 8;
for (; __key481 < __limit482; __key481 += 1)
{
int _ = __key481;
crc = crc >> 1 ^ cast(uint)-cast(int)(crc
& 1u) & polynomial;
}
}
res[0][i] = crc;
}
}
{
int __key483 = 0;
int __limit484 = 256;
for (; __key483 < __limit484; __key483 += 1)
{
int i = __key483;
res[1][i] = res[0][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[0][i] &
255u)];
res[2][i] = res[1][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[1][i] &
255u)];
res[3][i] = res[2][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[2][i] &
255u)];
res[4][i] = res[3][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[3][i] &
255u)];
res[5][i] = res[4][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[4][i] &
255u)];
res[6][i] = res[5][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[5][i] &
255u)];
res[7][i] = res[6][i] >> 8 ^ res[0][(res[6][i] &
255u)];
}
}
return res;
}
static immutable tables = genTables32(0xEDB88320);
static assert(tables[0][0] == 0x && tables[0][$ - 1]
== 0x2d02ef8d && tables[7][$ - 1] == 0x264b06e6);
Re: Please document packages/libraries before putting them on dub registry
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 00:08:29 UTC, aberba wrote: Those packages without documentation might be useful but no one except you will use it because only you know how and what it does. We spend hours writing code but can't spend minutes getting people to use them. Intro Purpose Usage ... To do Contributions Basic stuff. I'm currently working on this alongside with my code. Tip: Name all your variables after what they supposed to do, this further helps understanding your code. Using "foo" and "bar" might be trendy among programmers, but it can ruin code readability (to the point I once had to completely rewrite an algorithm instead of simply updating it). Also can I skimp out on details if a certain function only supposed to simply return a value (eg. getters, I usually write some warnings for setters even if they're pretty short).
Re: Who maintains the D website?
On Thursday, 3 August 2017 at 00:18:38 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: Is there a single person who's the main maintainer of the D website..? If not, I have some ideas on how to improve it. Not just ideas, I'd like to give a host at improving it myself, really. Have a look at "python.org". 2nd language in PYPL, 5th at TIOBE... Maybe there are some good things on this website that could be transposed to "dlang.org", like : - "easy to learn" - "easy to use" - simple examples - etc...
Re: How do you use D?
It is more about marketing. Maybe Go is not a perfect language, maybe not even a good one, but it's sold so good because of a good marketing So, calling D a "better C++" is a bad advertisement. But if you rename it to 'Script', for example "DatScript" and sell it as "better, statically typed JavaScript dialect which compiles into fast native executables" it will became #1 language on GitHub in no time. +1 I've suggested exactly the same "easy-to-learn super-powered stronly-typed javascript" and "efficient web server development" advertising approachs to the D leadership, using a more "Python.org"-like website. Maybe it's because this change would be much too radical, but I've been told that the "Better C++" slogan won't change, despite D could easily be "tweaked" to eat a significant part of Go/Dart's market shares. And I'm not especially convinced that many C++ developers are currently rushing towards D because of the current website. For instance, I've personally chosen D *only* it was much better than JavaScript/Node.js, not because it was better than C++, that I still have to use for game and mobile development. Still waiting that somebody explains me how to _easily_ use D with Unreal Engine, Cocos2D-X, etc... ;) I know I'm not the general case, but this still proves that "some" C++ developers won't switch to D for long because they are too tied to their ecosystem.
Re: newCTFE Status August 2017
On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 at 21:27:32 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote:
[ ... ]
After a surprisingly small amount of work we are now supporting
pointers to array-items.
It should be quite doable to add bounds-checked pointer with
minimal amount of work.
(Note this is only for 1D arrays/Slices ... Mulidimensional
Arrays/Slices still have issues preventing that)
The following video shows what needed to happen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHwIEd8E5mE
example code that now works:
int* getAPtr(int[] arr)
{
// assert(a.length > 1);
return &arr[1];
}
static assert(getAPtr([1, 2, 3]) == 2);
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sat, 2017-08-05 at 13:16 +, Dmitry via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > I'm an one who needed a good IDE (+debugger) support. But > unfortunately I'm not found a good one for D. > I have small skills in D, so my abilities is very limited > (translate something to another language, etc). And I'm not sure > that I'll be able grow it well without a good IDE, because > then I'd prefer other solid ecosystems for any serious projects. As far as I can tell there are no good D development environments in the way there are C++, Go, Rust ones. I have no idea about Visual D since that involves Visual Studio which I think involves Windows and possibly money – though paying for a good development environment does usually imply better quality, support and maintenance. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ASCII-ART mandelbrot running under newCTFE
On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 22:50:03 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote: Hey Guys, I just trans-compiled a brainfuck mandelbrot into ctfeable D. newCTFE is able to execute it correctly (although it takes 3.5 minutes to do so). The code is here https://gist.github.com/UplinkCoder/d4e4426e6adf9434e34529e8e1f8cb47 The gist it evaluates the function at runtime since the newCTFE version capable of running this, is not yet available as a preview release. If you want a laugh you can compile the code with ldc and -Oz flag set. LLVM will detect that the function is pure and will try to constant-fold it. I do not know how long this takes though since my patience is limited. Cheers, Stefan I have interest in mandelbtott. Some day, a long time ago, when turbo pascal was the part of the world and EGA monitors had 320x240x1 bytes per pixel... That time it was interesting to algorithm to go around the Mandelbrott set because of one theorem where every point of manfelbrott set has continious connection with any other point. If I have time I'd love to write it in D.
Re: ASCII-ART mandelbrot running under newCTFE
On 05.08.2017 02:59, Johnson Jones wrote: Any screenshots? I don't wanna have to install something I won't use but once or twice but would be interested in seeing what is going on since I used to be a fractal freak ;) https://dpaste.dzfl.pl/d7791f4e2845
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Saturday, 5 August 2017 at 11:26:57 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: If more people in the D community had the attitude "I can help with that" rather than "I wish they would so something", D tooling based on mainstream infrastructure would be a lot better than it currently is. Don't wait from a new people that they're skilled for it. Use D and make D (including ecosystem) - it's absolutely different, and requires a different level of skills. I'm an one who needed a good IDE (+debugger) support. But unfortunately I'm not found a good one for D. I have small skills in D, so my abilities is very limited (translate something to another language, etc). And I'm not sure that I'll be able grow it well without a good IDE, because then I'd prefer other solid ecosystems for any serious projects.
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Sat, 2017-08-05 at 10:19 +0200, Daniel Kozak via Digitalmars-d wrote: > I would not say so: > https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/issues/211 > Just because Kingsley has moved on doesn't mean the project is dead. In fact far from it. Except that currently is is spare time activity from a couple of people. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
On Fri, 2017-08-04 at 19:42 +, Ali via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > They dont have plans for a standalone rust ide, like clion for c++ Remember CLion is first and foremost a CMake based IDE that happens to have excellent support for C and C++ files. Also Rust, and a whole load of other languages for which there is a CMake build capability. […] > I think a community support for the Dlang intellij plugin is our > best hope > we can start a kickstarter project and donate money to them .. > might work > > I would donate to them if they also include a refactoring tool There is no "they" IntelliJ-DLanguage is a plugin for IntelliJ IDEA being written by the D community, that is "you". Sadly, currently, only a couple of people are putting in a bit of their spare time to keep the project moving. If more people in the D community had the attitude "I can help with that" rather than "I wish they would so something", D tooling based on mainstream infrastructure would be a lot better than it currently is. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jetbrains announce support for rust plugin, show them we want one too!
I would not say so: https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage/issues/211 On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Ali via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote: > On Friday, 4 August 2017 at 18:15:47 UTC, SCev wrote: > >> Just today, jetbrains announced their official support for the rust plugin >> >> I'm sure they'll do something for D if we ask them, don't stay silent!! >> show them you want something >> >> Leave a comment in their blog for a D support! too! >> >> We can do it! >> >> https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2017/08/04/official-support- >> for-open-source-rust-plugin-for-intellij-idea-clion-and- >> other-jetbrains-ides/ >> > > there is already a pluggin for D, > https://github.com/intellij-dlanguage/intellij-dlanguage > > not officially supported by Jetbrains > seems to be under active development > > >
