Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. The almost only thing I do is real world software production (basically math and optimized math methods). D with it's GC, DRuntime and Phobos makes it what I really like and need for. I do my own libs for my own needs. Perhaps some day I will use Mir, but I don't care if it is with or without D's standard libs. Igor Shirkalin.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 09:57:21 UTC, Guillaume Piolat wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya As a C lib, you have the possibility of not initializing the runtime, which leaves usable a part of phobos+druntime and it's only a matter of avoiding TLS/globals and global ctor/dtor. No need to rewrite druntime this way. https://www.auburnsounds.com/blog/2016-11-10_Running-D-without-its-runtime.html -betterC is cleaner (link errors) but give more work. Link requirement is problem too. A numeric library for the language list above will never be accepted if this library depends on huge non portable runtime like D has. --Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. give the man a cigar!
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 12:10:55 UTC, Andrey wrote: On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. +1 +1
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. +1
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: [...] what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. Amen. Features should never become a religion (else you'll get Java :).
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:32:56 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote: On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. +1 /Paolo +1 This is what technical domination is about :) not apologize for everything
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 11:09:12 UTC, ketmar wrote: what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe. +1 /Paolo
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 10:49:40 UTC, Chris wrote: The "hard way" (no runtime/Phobos/GC) should not be the default and I hope that nobody is seriously suggesting this. It should be available in case anyone needs it. I dare doubt, however, that C/C++ programmers will take to D like ducks take to water because of it. especially considering that nobody in c++ land really talking about "we should drop c++ runtime". yes, in case somebody doesn't know, c++ also has runtime. and c too, by the way. some people in c++ land avoiding using c++ features that require runtime (stl, rtti, etc.), but majority of programmers are ok with runtime. the very same is true for D. saying that "D will be more attractive to C++ programmers if we will remove runtime" is... i can't even find a word to describe it. what can be done, tho, is article (or series of articles) describing what exactly druntime is, how it is compared to libc and libc++, why it doesn't hurt at all, how to do "bare metal" with custom runtime, why GC is handy (and how to limit GC impact if that is necessary), and so on. that is something D Foundation should do, i believe.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:43:54 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote:
I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both?
I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one
day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At
the same time, there are people who are happy with
runtime/Phobos/GC. In my opinion it's not a question of
"either or" but of "both and".
I can only speak for myself, but the concern is that we'll move
in the direction of Rust, where you're supposed to read a
dissertation on memory management before writing "Hello,
World". The current state of affairs should be the default.
Those with more advanced uses in mind should be able to do what
they need, but it should be done without pushing away non-hard
core developers.
The "hard way" (no runtime/Phobos/GC) should not be the default
and I hope that nobody is seriously suggesting this. It should be
available in case anyone needs it. I dare doubt, however, that
C/C++ programmers will take to D like ducks take to water because
of it. It's been said time and time again that D's mission is no
longer to convert C/C++ programmers ("a better C++") but to
provide a good tool for programming. I think D still suffers from
the slogan that it's "a better C++". Bad marketing, because
you'll always be compared to C++. Imagine you date a woman and
tell her "I'm a better your ex-boyfriend/ex-husband".
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya As a C lib, you have the possibility of not initializing the runtime, which leaves usable a part of phobos+druntime and it's only a matter of avoiding TLS/globals and global ctor/dtor. No need to rewrite druntime this way. https://www.auburnsounds.com/blog/2016-11-10_Running-D-without-its-runtime.html -betterC is cleaner (link errors) but give more work.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 21:52:22 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 15:17:21 Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: That being said, if someone wants to make their life harder by insisting on using D without even druntime, then that's their choice. I think that it's an unnecessarily extreme approach even for really performance-centric code, but they're free to do what they want. It's not only a performance issue. Sometimes, your target platform simply doesn't have the runtime nor Phobos: Emscripten (asmjs), kernel mode code or bare metal embedded stuff. I'm using D without druntime for my D-to-asmjs project. Avoid druntime certainly makes my life harder, but it makes the whole project possible.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 at 02:10:35 UTC, Jon Degenhardt wrote: A cycle I think is common is for a researcher (industry or academic) to write functionality in native R code, then when trying to scale it, finds native R code is too slow, and switches to C/C++ to create a library used in R. C/C++ is chosen not because it the preferred choice, but because it is the common choice. In such situations, the performance need is often to be quite a bit faster than native R code, not that it reach zero overhead. My personal opinion, but I do think D would be a very good choice here, run-time, phobos, gc, etc., included. The larger barrier to entry is more about ease of getting started, community (are others using this approach), etc., and less about having the absolutely most optimal performance. (There are obviously areas where the most optimal performance is critical, Mir seems to be targeting a number of them.) Rcpp is the most common dependency for R packages on CRAN. (I actually contributed an example that Dirk went on to use quite often, including his book.[1]) That motivated me to do something similar for D.[2] I have created other packages, though they have less documentation.[3] It will be important to keep the technical requirements low if others are going to adopt D. I use the R package manager for everything, because Dub would require them to learn something that they'd view as weird. And having to understand memory management, as with Rust, would definitely not work. To this point I have focused on adding functionality and ease of installation so as to get my coauthors to use it. Mir is a wonderful project, but those advanced developers are not the ones that would embed D inside an R program, and they would definitely not feel comfortable with the things a statistician/econometrician expects. [1] http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/blog/2011/04/23/ [2] https://bitbucket.org/bachmeil/embedr [3] For example, https://bitbucket.org/bachmeil/dmdgretl, https://bitbucket.org/bachmeil/dmdquadprog, https://bitbucket.org/bachmeil/dmdoptim
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:33:03 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya You can call into those same C libs using D. Only if you want a pure D solution do you need to be able to rewrite those libraries and get the same performance. D is a fine solution for the academic or the working statistician that is doing day-to-day analysis. The GC and runtime are not going to be an obstacle for most of them (and most won't even know anything about them). A cycle I think is common is for a researcher (industry or academic) to write functionality in native R code, then when trying to scale it, finds native R code is too slow, and switches to C/C++ to create a library used in R. C/C++ is chosen not because it the preferred choice, but because it is the common choice. In such situations, the performance need is often to be quite a bit faster than native R code, not that it reach zero overhead. My personal opinion, but I do think D would be a very good choice here, run-time, phobos, gc, etc., included. The larger barrier to entry is more about ease of getting started, community (are others using this approach), etc., and less about having the absolutely most optimal performance. (There are obviously areas where the most optimal performance is critical, Mir seems to be targeting a number of them.) For D to compete directly with R, Python, Julia, in these communities then some additional capabilities are probably needed, like a repl, standard scientific packages, etc.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 15:17:21 Picaud Vincent via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: > However I think that to popularize/attract people to use D, it is > very important, to have a mechanism/feature that allows you to be > close to the "zero overhead" situation. You can do that without throwing away all of druntime and Phobos. You just don't use the stuff with the overhead that you can't afford - e.g. if you can't afford the GC, then don't use it. @nogc guarantees that for you. And if you can't afford exceptions, then nothrow does that for you. IMHO, if you ditch druntime and Phobos over GC concerns, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Without druntime, you don't even get assertions or unit tests or static constructors or array bounds checking or... I just can't agree that throwing out druntime makes sense even in most really performance-critical environments. Certain features would need to be avoided, but it doesn't require throwing everything out. That being said, if someone wants to make their life harder by insisting on using D without even druntime, then that's their choice. I think that it's an unnecessarily extreme approach even for really performance-centric code, but they're free to do what they want. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote: I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At the same time, there are people who are happy with runtime/Phobos/GC. In my opinion it's not a question of "either or" but of "both and". I can only speak for myself, but the concern is that we'll move in the direction of Rust, where you're supposed to read a dissertation on memory management before writing "Hello, World". The current state of affairs should be the default. Those with more advanced uses in mind should be able to do what they need, but it should be done without pushing away non-hard core developers.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 16:15:32 UTC, Chris wrote: I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At the same time, there are people who are happy with runtime/Phobos/GC. In my opinion it's not a question of "either or" but of "both and". Yes, I do agree, that is not exclusive. I only said that IMHO it would be very useful to have a clear "mechanism" (pragma, compiler flags...) to generate code close to what can be done with C. The goal being to have appealing (= fast & low memory footprint) libraries to attract people. That said, D with all its features GC, ... is great, but maybe that is not the feature that catches potential user attention the most. -- Vincent
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:12:56 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya You can call into those same C libs using D. Only if you want a pure D solution do you need to be able to rewrite those libraries and get the same performance. D is a fine solution for the academic or the working statistician that is doing day-to-day analysis. The GC and runtime are not going to be an obstacle for most of them (and most won't even know anything about them).
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 15:17:21 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: [...] I understand and I do agree with these points, honestly. These points are also the reason why I will maybe try to use D for my own codes (D is really much better than C++ concerning template, meta programming syntax, embedded unit tests etc...). However I think that to popularize/attract people to use D, it is very important, to have a mechanism/feature that allows you to be close to the "zero overhead" situation. If you have two concurrent libraries (even in different languages), people will adopt the fastest one... As an example, look at the BLAS lib, people do not try to read/understand the code to see how nice it is, they just look at benchmarks and take the fastest implementation for their architecture. IMHO that is the reason why D must let the opportunity, for those who want (library developers for instance) of coding down to the metal: the goal is to have visibility in benchmarks and to attract users. At least it is my point of view. -- Vincent I don't understand this discussion at all. Why not have both? I don't need bare metal stuff at the moment but I might one day, and I perfectly understand that people may need it. At the same time, there are people who are happy with runtime/Phobos/GC. In my opinion it's not a question of "either or" but of "both and".
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: I write D code all the time for my research. I want to write correct code quickly. My time is too valuable to spend weeks writing code to cut the running time by a few minutes. That might be fun for some people, but it doesn't pay the bills. It's close enough to optimized C performance out of the box. But ultimately I need a tool that provides fast code, has libraries to do what I want, and allows me to write a correct program with a limited budget. This is, of course, not universal, but zero overhead is not important for most of the numerical code that is written. I understand and I do agree with these points, honestly. These points are also the reason why I will maybe try to use D for my own codes (D is really much better than C++ concerning template, meta programming syntax, embedded unit tests etc...). However I think that to popularize/attract people to use D, it is very important, to have a mechanism/feature that allows you to be close to the "zero overhead" situation. If you have two concurrent libraries (even in different languages), people will adopt the fastest one... As an example, look at the BLAS lib, people do not try to read/understand the code to see how nice it is, they just look at benchmarks and take the fastest implementation for their architecture. IMHO that is the reason why D must let the opportunity, for those who want (library developers for instance) of coding down to the metal: the goal is to have visibility in benchmarks and to attract users. At least it is my point of view. -- Vincent
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first year of computer systems engineering. My main problem is that now I am looking for industry placements, it is clear that in this field C and C++ are highly desired. I have used C++ prior to discovering D, but much of my learning curve has occured while using D, and I feel quite comfortable using it. Using D makes me look back at what a great language it is compared to C++ (I know it can also be compared to C but I haven't used C). Failing that, think of this as another one of those 'D is great!' posts ;). And whatever happens, I'll certainly try and convince my host company to use it... "Those who will use D will use D". Tomorrow someone else will come and say "Oh, D is not picking up because of poor GC support to handle memory for large scale deployments". To the comments above, let's have a prof on what you are saying. "Those who will use D will use D". Competition is bad. C++ did compeat with C and we now have a beast. Set your goals and focus on that.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 13:14:52 UTC, Kagamin wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. Without runtime you won't have asserts (C has them), bounds checking, array casts, string switch. Doesn't sound good to me. All this can be done without runtime. It is weird that we need runtime for now for this features. And why is it a requirement at all? C and C++ already depend on their quite huge runtimes already. Why D shouldn't? Exactly, C already has a runtime. We can reuse it instead of maintaining our own. I never said we must delete DRunime. I just need an infrastructure without runtime. And I am working on it. Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. Without runtime you won't have asserts (C has them), bounds checking, array casts, string switch. Doesn't sound good to me. And why is it a requirement at all? C and C++ already depend on their quite huge runtimes already. Why D shouldn't?
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 12:36:49 UTC, Dejan Lekic wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D instead/with of C/C++. Yes, perhaps it is so in your world... In my world I have absolutely no need for this. In fact we are perfectly happy with Java runtime which is many times bigger than druntime! Exactly, this is why D will never beat Java and Go. BTW, both languages has commercial support. Current D users are here because they are OK with current D runtime. The number of users is small. I don't expect/want that every one will agree. I am targeting the ocean where we has not concurrents except C/C++. GC for D is good as dub package or a compiler option. Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D instead/with of C/C++. Yes, perhaps it is so in your world... In my world I have absolutely no need for this. In fact we are perfectly happy with Java runtime which is many times bigger than druntime!
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:56:20 UTC, ketmar wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:45:39 UTC, Andrey wrote: I think, a good way to step up for Dlang is to be C++ like Ada variant, with possibility to work without GC. you do know that you *can* use D without GC even now, do you? Yes, I do. But it is like C++ without stdlib. And no volatile access, if I didn't miss something. I agree with Ilya, must be a way to use runtime-free D lib.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 11:48:32 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 06:17:17 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: Considering scientific/numerical applications, I do agree with Ilya: it is mandatory to have zero overhead and a straightforward/direct interoperability with C. I am impressed by the Mir lib results and I think "BetterC" is very attractive/important. As always, it depends on what you are doing. It is mandatory for some numerical applications. R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia are used all the time and they are not zero overhead. A fast way to kill their usage would be to force their users to think about those issues. What matters is the available libraries, first and foremost, and whatever is second most important, it is a distant second. I write D code all the time for my research. I want to write correct code quickly. My time is too valuable to spend weeks writing code to cut the running time by a few minutes. That might be fun for some people, but it doesn't pay the bills. It's close enough to optimized C performance out of the box. But ultimately I need a tool that provides fast code, has libraries to do what I want, and allows me to write a correct program with a limited budget. This is, of course, not universal, but zero overhead is not important for most of the numerical code that is written. R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia use C libs. --Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 06:17:17 UTC, Picaud Vincent wrote: Considering scientific/numerical applications, I do agree with Ilya: it is mandatory to have zero overhead and a straightforward/direct interoperability with C. I am impressed by the Mir lib results and I think "BetterC" is very attractive/important. As always, it depends on what you are doing. It is mandatory for some numerical applications. R, Matlab, Python, Mathematica, Gauss, and Julia are used all the time and they are not zero overhead. A fast way to kill their usage would be to force their users to think about those issues. What matters is the available libraries, first and foremost, and whatever is second most important, it is a distant second. I write D code all the time for my research. I want to write correct code quickly. My time is too valuable to spend weeks writing code to cut the running time by a few minutes. That might be fun for some people, but it doesn't pay the bills. It's close enough to optimized C performance out of the box. But ultimately I need a tool that provides fast code, has libraries to do what I want, and allows me to write a correct program with a limited budget. This is, of course, not universal, but zero overhead is not important for most of the numerical code that is written.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 09:45:39 UTC, Andrey wrote: I think, a good way to step up for Dlang is to be C++ like Ada variant, with possibility to work without GC. you do know that you *can* use D without GC even now, do you?
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 07:27:53 UTC, ketmar wrote: On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:38:50 UTC, bpr wrote: It's a counterfactual at this point, but I would guess that if D had left out the GC in 2010 when D2 came out it would have been ahead of C++ in many ways and perhaps would have been able to peel off more C++ programmers c++ programmers want c++. anything that is not c++ will be bashed to death. there is absolutely no reason to kill one of the key D features only to attract 2.5 c++ coders. actually, we already have That One C++ Programmer We Need onboard -- Andrei. ;-) Let me put My 2 cents too: the goal is not only attracting 2.5 c++ coders, but to expand Dlang using. I like D, and I want to use it wide. And I believe Dlang adepts too. So we must make D to be usefull for small, metal-bare (important for me), embedded things to whatever... We can't do it now with GC. I'am learning Ada lang now, and understood, that many usefull things Walter took from there. I think, a good way to step up for Dlang is to be C++ like Ada variant, with possibility to work without GC. And with GC too, to make life easier, if someone wants. IMO )
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:38:50 UTC, bpr wrote: It's a counterfactual at this point, but I would guess that if D had left out the GC in 2010 when D2 came out it would have been ahead of C++ in many ways and perhaps would have been able to peel off more C++ programmers c++ programmers want c++. anything that is not c++ will be bashed to death. there is absolutely no reason to kill one of the key D features only to attract 2.5 c++ coders. actually, we already have That One C++ Programmer We Need onboard -- Andrei. ;-)
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better C. - Jonathan M Davis Considering scientific/numerical applications, I do agree with Ilya: it is mandatory to have zero overhead and a straightforward/direct interoperability with C. I am impressed by the Mir lib results and I think "BetterC" is very attractive/important. -- Vincent
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 02:38:50 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:47:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > We get plenty of folks who aren't big C/C++ programmers who are > > interested in D. Yes, the majority seem to have a C++ > > background, but we also get folks from C#, python, ruby, etc. > > It would be nice to see a breakdown. From where I sit, it appears > that most of the interest in D is from C++ users, and it doesn't > appear that D popularity is rising so much. Any data that belies > that sad assessment? As I understand it, the downloads have been increasing year over year. At least some years, Andrei has given some statistics on the state of D in his dconf talk. And per his stats, forum/newsgroup activity was going up too, though I get the impression that at least in the main newsgroup, it may have actually dropped off (whereas Learn seems like it's been growing). That's just my impression though. I'm sure github activity has gone up over time though. It's my understanding that D's usage has continued to grow but that it isn't growing super fast, whereas languages such as Go and Rust do seem to have grown very quickly (probably at least in part due to the companies behind them). But other languages have taken a long time to catch on and still ended up being very successful with large user bases (e.g. that's what happened with python). It's also hard to gauge how much D is really being used. The number of companies saying that they're using D seems to have increased, but there are who-knows how many folks using D who haven't said anything, and we really don't have much to go on besides the downloads, which only capture a portion of the D's users and even then only tells you how often dmd was downloaded, not how many people it was or if they're new users or whatnot. And downloading dmd from dlang.org is not the only way to get it. There are definitely things that we can be and should be doing to improve D's traction (like better supporting @nogc in Phobos), but I don't think that we're doing badly. And often, the problem seems to be more of a PR one than anything technical (e.g. I think that we're finally pretty much beyond the issues caused by the confusion over Tango vs Phobos in D1, but it took a long time). And honestly, much as there are technical problems related to the GC, the far bigger problem seems to be the PR issues related to it. Sadly, the simple fact that we _have_ a GC has been a PR problem, regardless of the actual state of things. But regardless, we do seem to be gaining traction, even if it's not as quickly as we might like. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 at 02:24:56 UTC, bpr wrote: If I really *want* to use a GC, say I'm writing a server and I believe that a well tuned GC will allow my server to stay alive much longer with less fragmentation, I'll probably skip D and pick Go or maybe (hmmm...) even Java because their GCs have had a lot of engineering effort. Writing a server is quite narrow compared to the "programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language" that I was responding to. I wonder what percentage of Ruby programmers have thought about garbage collection ever. Why would a Ruby or Python programmer unconcerned with performance want to switch to D? I'm sure there are some who would, but I'd imagine they're rare. Maybe some prefer D as a language? The same argument could be used against any language. Performance is far from the only reason to use D.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:47:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 22:13:54 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Sure, there are folks who would prefer not to have to deal with the GC but throw out the runtime and std lib? You lose out on too much for it to be at all worth it for many folks. At that point, C++11/14/17 looks far more appealing, especially as it continues to improve. It's a counterfactual at this point, but I would guess that if D had left out the GC in 2010 when D2 came out it would have been ahead of C++ in many ways and perhaps would have been able to peel off more C++ programmers and achieve the momentum that Rust appears to have now. Yes, it would be missing some features on account of omitting GC, but D2 -GC in 2010 is still much better than C++ 2011. As C++ absorbs D features, the case for D seems weaker. We get plenty of folks who aren't big C/C++ programmers who are interested in D. Yes, the majority seem to have a C++ background, but we also get folks from C#, python, ruby, etc. It would be nice to see a breakdown. From where I sit, it appears that most of the interest in D is from C++ users, and it doesn't appear that D popularity is rising so much. Any data that belies that sad assessment?
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:23:25 UTC, bachmeier wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. So someone working with Ruby is not going to want to work with D because of GC performance? Ruby programmers are probably not concerned with performance at all ever. It's a slow interpreted language with a GIL. But if you're on a Rails project, that's what you'll use. If I really *want* to use a GC, say I'm writing a server and I believe that a well tuned GC will allow my server to stay alive much longer with less fragmentation, I'll probably skip D and pick Go or maybe (hmmm...) even Java because their GCs have had a lot of engineering effort. I wonder what percentage of Ruby programmers have thought about garbage collection ever. Why would a Ruby or Python programmer unconcerned with performance want to switch to D? I'm sure there are some who would, but I'd imagine they're rare.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
My 2 cents: for most applications, hotspots tend to be in a tiny percentage of the code (ie 90/10 rule where 10% of code accounts for 90% execution time, although my experience in large projects is even more unbalanced) ; throwing away druntime or GC for the whole codebase based on performance concerns amounts to (evil) early optimization. It's far more productive to use a profiler and carefully optimize only the parts that need to be (possibly using betterc, @nogc, ldc and optimized compiler flags for those hotspots only). What could be done better would be to remove friction when linking in shared objects produced by dmd and ldc (eg, extern(D) functions have different number of underscores in dmd vs ldc). On that note, even if dmd is 50x slower than ldc for certain blas mir routines, it's still valuable to have mir supported by dmd as we can always swap in the slow parts during production runs, but we'd benefit with fast compile time during development time, On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:08 PM, aberba via Digitalmars-d-learn < digitalmars-d-learn@puremagic.com> wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis >> > > I would guess that the vast majority of interest shown in Rust is from >> people who essentially want a better C or C++, with no runtime/GC. So, I >> think Ilya's point is very plausible. D with no GC, but with modules, >> templates, overloading, CTFE, and some other features might have been more >> tempting to the no-GC crowd, which includes many hardcore C++ programmers. >> >> Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will >> likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. >> > > > I don't really get the issue with D's GC, Phobos and DRuntime. JavaScript > is really popular and getting really popular everyday (I mean Nodejs). Same > as Python, PHP, Ruby (startups), etc. But they are not exactly betterC. > Most of them don't even give native code speed. > > When using D, I just want to get my app working and running. That is why > more packages (vibe.d, mail, request, mysql-lited, etc) matter to me. The > level you are trying to raise D is way over-kill IMO :). It's good though > for those who need it. But most of us don't judge languages that way. >
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis I would guess that the vast majority of interest shown in Rust is from people who essentially want a better C or C++, with no runtime/GC. So, I think Ilya's point is very plausible. D with no GC, but with modules, templates, overloading, CTFE, and some other features might have been more tempting to the no-GC crowd, which includes many hardcore C++ programmers. Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. I don't really get the issue with D's GC, Phobos and DRuntime. JavaScript is really popular and getting really popular everyday (I mean Nodejs). Same as Python, PHP, Ruby (startups), etc. But they are not exactly betterC. Most of them don't even give native code speed. When using D, I just want to get my app working and running. That is why more packages (vibe.d, mail, request, mysql-lited, etc) matter to me. The level you are trying to raise D is way over-kill IMO :). It's good though for those who need it. But most of us don't judge languages that way.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 22:13:54 bpr via Digitalmars-d-learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as > > a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're > > seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in > > that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked > > with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better > > C. > > I would guess that the vast majority of interest shown in Rust is > from people who essentially want a better C or C++, with no > runtime/GC. So, I think Ilya's point is very plausible. D with no > GC, but with modules, templates, overloading, CTFE, and some > other features might have been more tempting to the no-GC crowd, > which includes many hardcore C++ programmers. Sure, there are folks who would prefer not to have to deal with the GC but throw out the runtime and std lib? You lose out on too much for it to be at all worth it for many folks. At that point, C++11/14/17 looks far more appealing, especially as it continues to improve. And @nogc and sane memory use largely solves the GC problem for many programs. There are some places where we need to improve the situation (like with lambdas and the GC), but for most programs, it's totally workable as-is without giving up on all of the features provided by the runtime and Phobos. If you really need absolute pedal-to-the-metal performance and can't afford to ever have the GC stop the world, you still don't need to actually throw away the runtime and std lib. You're just a lot more restricted in what you can do with them. So, tossing out druntime and Phobos entirely seems rather extreme. It may very well make really good sense for a subset of D programs, but I have a hard time believing that it's anything more than a small subset. > Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language > will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. We get plenty of folks who aren't big C/C++ programmers who are interested in D. Yes, the majority seem to have a C++ background, but we also get folks from C#, python, ruby, etc. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 22:13:54 UTC, bpr wrote: Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great. So someone working with Ruby is not going to want to work with D because of GC performance? I wonder what percentage of Ruby programmers have thought about garbage collection ever. I could see an argument that there are existing frameworks or some other reason to prefer another language, but it is highly unlikely that GC would be the reason that both C++ and Ruby programmers would not want to use D.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better C. I would guess that the vast majority of interest shown in Rust is from people who essentially want a better C or C++, with no runtime/GC. So, I think Ilya's point is very plausible. D with no GC, but with modules, templates, overloading, CTFE, and some other features might have been more tempting to the no-GC crowd, which includes many hardcore C++ programmers. Those programmers who are comfortable working in a GC-ed language will likely eschew D because D's GC is really not that great.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 20:01:38 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better C. - Jonathan M Davis My experience is completely orthogonal. --Ilya There is a theorem that all programming language discussions on the internet start with the assumption that real programming is exactly the same as the programming done by the author.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 17:00:35 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better C. - Jonathan M Davis My experience is completely orthogonal. --Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, December 06, 2016 13:36:20 Ilya Yaroshenko via Digitalmars-d- learn wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 13:02:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu > > wrote: > > On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana > >> > >> wrote: > >>> On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko > >>> Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. > >> > >> In theory > > > > And what seem to be the issues in practice with code that is > > not highly specialized? -- Andrei > > If code is not highly specialized there is no reason to spent > resources to use C/C++/D. A company will be happy with Python, > Java, C#, Go and Swift. If one need to have C/C++ programming > level he can not use D because DRuntime. Only a subset of D can > be used. And current problem that we have not BetterC paradigm in > D specification. So, only crazy companies will consider D for > large projects. Current D is successful in small console text > routines. > > If a system PL can not be used as C for highly specialized code, > it is not a real system PL. > > DRuntime and Phobos is going to compete with Java and Go. It is > suicide for D, IMHO. In other hand, BetterC is a direction where > D can be populated among professionals and replace C/C++. While I am quite sure that there are use cases where folks would be unhappy with druntime and Phobos and want to avoid them, there are definitely companies using D with druntime and Phobos right now, and personally, I've never worked at a company where anything about druntime or Phobos would have been a showstopper in switching to D. The showstopper would be in convincing them to use a new language rather than one that they were already familiar with. C++ works for them, and they're not interested in switching. And honestly, pushing for a subset of D that didn't have the functionality in druntime and Phobos would just make it an even harder sell. At that point, they're _really_ not interested in using D. C++11/14/17 quickly and easily wins out in that fight. So, while there are certainly folks who would prefer using D as a better C without druntime or Phobos, I think that you're seriously overestimating how many folks would be interested in that. Certainly, all of the C++ programmers that I've worked with professionally would have _zero_ interest in D as a better C. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 13:02:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. In theory And what seem to be the issues in practice with code that is not highly specialized? -- Andrei If code is not highly specialized there is no reason to spent resources to use C/C++/D. A company will be happy with Python, Java, C#, Go and Swift. If one need to have C/C++ programming level he can not use D because DRuntime. Only a subset of D can be used. And current problem that we have not BetterC paradigm in D specification. So, only crazy companies will consider D for large projects. Current D is successful in small console text routines. If a system PL can not be used as C for highly specialized code, it is not a real system PL. DRuntime and Phobos is going to compete with Java and Go. It is suicide for D, IMHO. In other hand, BetterC is a direction where D can be populated among professionals and replace C/C++. Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On 12/5/16 3:49 PM, e-y-e wrote: If you don't mind me saying, I think Mir could be one of the best things for the future of D (along with LDC) and I'd be glad to help it on its way. Yes, Mir is awesome! I keep on thinking of ways to make it better supported by the language and infra. -- Andrei
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On 12/6/16 3:28 AM, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. In theory And what seem to be the issues in practice with code that is not highly specialized? -- Andrei
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:49:50 UTC, e-y-e wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: [...] You know from the 15th December I will have a month of free time, and I would love to get myself up to speed with Mir to contribute to it. If you don't mind me saying, I think Mir could be one of the best things for the future of D (along with LDC) and I'd be glad to help it on its way. Awesome! The main directions are: 1. stdC++ analogs implementation in betterC Dlang subset 2. betterC analogs of existing Phobos modules. We can reuse DRuntime / Phobos code for initial commits. 3. Various numeric / sci software. 4. GPU algorithms. This require dcompute to be a part of LDC. Thank you, Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Tuesday, 6 December 2016 at 08:14:17 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. In theory
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D instead/with of C/C++. Completly disagree. You're speaking about scientific projects, maybe. Phobos/Druntime are pretty good for a lot of projects. Andrea
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:49:50 UTC, e-y-e wrote: On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: [...] You know from the 15th December I will have a month of free time, and I would love to get myself up to speed with Mir to contribute to it. If you don't mind me saying, I think Mir could be one of the best things for the future of D (along with LDC) and I'd be glad to help it on its way. That'd be great, drop in to our gitter some time https://gitter.im/libmir/public if you have any questions. The modules last updated before November are not very interesting at the moment. dcompute is, but is waiting on pulls for LDC.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first year of computer systems engineering. ... Does anyone have any advice for me? Honestly, I recommend just learning C and C++. Especially C if you're into low level stuff. You won't just broaden your job market, you'll learn stuff that will help you use D more effectively. You don't have to think of it as "leaving" the language. how can I replace some of the great things about D? Things like built-in unittests, sane static if, painless CTFE, ranges, or even just the DUB package manager/build tool. You'll have to learn to do without them :)
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 20:25:00 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote: Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D instead/with of C/C++. For example, Mir CPUID, Mir GLAS, Mir Random are nothrow @nogc and do not need DRuntime to start/link. (Mir Random is not tested for BetterC, so maybe few dependencies are exist.) Mir Random covers C++11 random number generation for example. If D code can be compiled into a common C libraries like Mir libs, than you can include it into existing ecosystem. Currently it is possible only with LDC (requires some programming techniques for now). I will be happy to see more Mir contributors [1] Currently there are 5 Mir devs (not all are visible publicly). [1] https://github.com/libmir Cheers, Ilya You know from the 15th December I will have a month of free time, and I would love to get myself up to speed with Mir to contribute to it. If you don't mind me saying, I think Mir could be one of the best things for the future of D (along with LDC) and I'd be glad to help it on its way.
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
Hi e-y-e, The main problem with D for production is its runtime. GC, DRuntime, Phobos is big constraint for real world software production. Good D code should be nothrow, @nogc, and betterC. BetterC means that it must not require DRuntime to link and to start. I started Mir as scientific/numeric project, but it is going to be a replacement for Phobos to use D instead/with of C/C++. For example, Mir CPUID, Mir GLAS, Mir Random are nothrow @nogc and do not need DRuntime to start/link. (Mir Random is not tested for BetterC, so maybe few dependencies are exist.) Mir Random covers C++11 random number generation for example. If D code can be compiled into a common C libraries like Mir libs, than you can include it into existing ecosystem. Currently it is possible only with LDC (requires some programming techniques for now). I will be happy to see more Mir contributors [1] Currently there are 5 Mir devs (not all are visible publicly). [1] https://github.com/libmir Cheers, Ilya
Re: [Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
On Monday, 5 December 2016 at 17:18:25 UTC, e-y-e wrote: Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first year of computer systems engineering. My main problem is that now I am looking for industry placements, it is clear that in this field C and C++ are highly desired. I have used C++ prior to discovering D, but much of my learning curve has occured while using D, and I feel quite comfortable using it. Using D makes me look back at what a great language it is compared to C++ (I know it can also be compared to C but I haven't used C). So I don't want to go back. It isn't as if I have a career in C++ (like I know some people here have) and use D (only) for pleasure so I have no real knowledge of how things I write in D compare to what I would do in C++ (and none whatsoever for C). Does anyone have any advice for me? Obviously I'm going to have to make this leap and the organizations will have their own ecosystem but while I'm learning how can I replace some of the great things about D? Things like built-in unittests, sane static if, painless CTFE, ranges, or even just the DUB package manager/build tool. Failing that, think of this as another one of those 'D is great!' posts ;). And whatever happens, I'll certainly try and convince my host company to use it... I'm an academic, so no useful advice. I was reminded when reading your post of all the comments from Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, and [insert language] users that are able to choose their language for much of their job. Many use Lisp. Just not for production. An advantage of D is that you can mix C/C++ with D, so that increases the chance of using it.
[Semi-OT] I don't want to leave this language!
Currently I have been learning D for about a year and a half. This may seem like a short time, but this is the longest I have stuck with any language. I have only been learning for 4 years and I am currently in university studying first year of computer systems engineering. My main problem is that now I am looking for industry placements, it is clear that in this field C and C++ are highly desired. I have used C++ prior to discovering D, but much of my learning curve has occured while using D, and I feel quite comfortable using it. Using D makes me look back at what a great language it is compared to C++ (I know it can also be compared to C but I haven't used C). So I don't want to go back. It isn't as if I have a career in C++ (like I know some people here have) and use D (only) for pleasure so I have no real knowledge of how things I write in D compare to what I would do in C++ (and none whatsoever for C). Does anyone have any advice for me? Obviously I'm going to have to make this leap and the organizations will have their own ecosystem but while I'm learning how can I replace some of the great things about D? Things like built-in unittests, sane static if, painless CTFE, ranges, or even just the DUB package manager/build tool. Failing that, think of this as another one of those 'D is great!' posts ;). And whatever happens, I'll certainly try and convince my host company to use it...
