[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Mr Sinatra, I fully support your position. I have at least three friends who asked me about feedback about my squeezebox. My answer: great hardware, software which is just for jerks that want to spend more time in debugging that playing music. In short - SORRY, BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT - The driver would be a very, very good idea. If this is not possible, a software product (whatever it is) that works and do not introduce more bugs any new release like ss does. My suggestion: you have done your point very clear, probably at Logitech (which does understand consumer business) got it, stop wasting your time arguing with all the attacks to you. Many people in this thread seems do not want to understant it. Probably spending time debugging make their ego feeling good. Aragorn -- Aragorn Aragorn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4229 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Aragorn;175250 Wrote: I have at least three friends who asked me about feedback about my squeezebox. My answer: great hardware, software which is just for jerks that want to spend more time in debugging that playing music. In short - SORRY, BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT - The driver would be a very, very good idea. If this is not possible, a software product (whatever it is) that works and do not introduce more bugs any new release like ss does.Do you want a device driver because you think there would be less bugs in a system that consisted of a completely newly written device driver + an external application not written by Logitech ? Or do you really want the device driver for the functionality ? The reason I'm asking is because newly written code often has more bugs in it than old code and this is especially true if code from different companies shall collaborate. I'm not arguing that a device driver is wrong, I'm just checking that you want it for the right reason. The problem with slimserver is that the environment it runs in can be completely different. - Some people uses MP3 files some other people uses FLAC files. - Some uses iTunes or MusicIP plugins for scanning files and some uses the native scanning mechanism builtin in slimserver. - Different software is used for tagging music files. - Some people knows what tags are other have no idea what a tag is - Slimserver runs on different operating systems. - People are having different type of networks, some wireless some wired. - Some people are running slimserver on servers, some are running it on the desktop where new games and other applications are installed every week. - Sound quality is number one priority for SlimDevices, while other products might focus more on usability than sound quality. The problem with this senario is that it is impossible for SlimDevices to test all different configurations without the help of the end users. I know this might sound bad, but we are not talking about Microsoft here we are talking about a quite small company (at least until Logitech bought SlimDevices). I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. I have only FLAC music over a wireless network and it has been running for about a year now. I can honestly say that I haven't had a single problem during this time. I know you guys that are having problems might not feel any better because of this, but at least it shows that it can actually work really good. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins' (http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer)) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
erland wrote: I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. What OS does this server run? Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Peter;175264 Wrote: erland wrote: I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. What OS does this server run? Regards, PeterLinux (Ubuntu), it has of course been restarted a few times during the year since I also use it as my web server, and slimserver has been restarted every time I have released a new plugin version. But what I am saying is that I haven't had any problems whatsoever with slimserver during this year. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins' (http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer)) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
erland wrote: Peter;175264 Wrote: erland wrote: I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. What OS does this server run? Regards, PeterLinux (Ubuntu), it has of course been restarted a few times during the year since I also use it as my web server, and slimserver has been restarted every time I have released a new plugin version. But what I am saying is that I haven't had any problems whatsoever with slimserver during this year. I thought so. I'm running Linux on my server too. I suspect that most problems are found running on Windows platforms. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
I thought so. I'm running Linux on my server too. I suspect that most problems are found running on Windows platforms. I don't have any longtime experience with SlimServer on Windows, as I only use it on my development machine (which is a Windows laptop). But I think there are so much more tools installed on typical Windows systems which can make live for a server type application harder: antivirus tools, personal firewalls (and both with often not very transparent behaviour and configuration), optimizing utilities etc. And then there's simply a much bigger number of Windows installations out there. Which increases the number of problems even if both systems are on par. And you'll mainly hear about the troublesome installations. Happy campers don't bother subscribing to forums. But still: ome say the problem was sitting between keyboard and screen - this happens a lot less with headless Linux boxes :-) -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Hallo erland Do you want a device driver because you think there would be less bugs in a system that consisted of a completely newly written device driver + an external application not written by Logitech ? Or do you really want the device driver for the functionality ? I would like to be able to use Slimbox as a (high quality) remote soundcard. The beauty of device driver concept (if the implementation is high quality) is that it would allow the use of any software. Basic integration would just stream the sound, while advanced integration would also support the display The reason I'm asking is because newly written code often has more bugs in it than old code and this is especially true if code from different companies shall collaborate. I am not a developer, as a user this waht I would like to have. I'm not arguing that a device driver is wrong, I'm just checking that you want it for the right reason. The problem with slimserver is that the environment it runs in can be completely different. - Some people uses MP3 files some other people uses FLAC files. - Some uses iTunes or MusicIP plugins for scanning files and some uses the native scanning mechanism builtin in slimserver. - Different software is used for tagging music files. - Some people knows what tags are other have no idea what a tag is - Slimserver runs on different operating systems. - People are having different type of networks, some wireless some wired. - Some people are running slimserver on servers, some are running it on the desktop where new games and other applications are installed every week. - Sound quality is number one priority for SlimDevices, while other products might focus more on usability than sound quality. The problem with this senario is that it is impossible for SlimDevices to test all different configurations without the help of the end users. I know this might sound bad, but we are not talking about Microsoft here we are talking about a quite small company (at least until Logitech bought SlimDevices). I am not blaming SlimDevices, simply noticing the big gap between hardware and software quality. In my opinion the software is not mass market ready and I believe Logitech should address this issue. I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. I have only FLAC music over a wireless network and it has been running for about a year now. I can honestly say that I haven't had a single problem during this time. I know you guys that are having problems might not feel any better because of this, but at least it shows that it can actually work really good. I am also running my slimserver on a linux server, however for my needs and my enviromental feeling, this is an overkill. Aragorn -- Aragorn Aragorn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4229 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Aragorn;175277 Wrote: I am not blaming SlimDevices, simply noticing the big gap between hardware and software quality. In my opinion the software is not mass market ready and I believe Logitech should address this issue. I completely agree. Although my box is working perfectly there has been a lot of posts lately about users having problem. I would expect the number of complaints to increase as the massmarket sales goes up, so its definitely something that Logitech need to address. I also believe that slimserver probably isn't the cause in most situations, I think most of the problems people are having is because the environment slimserver is running in. It might be everything from an operating system filled with applications and games that conflicts to badly tagged music files or users that aren't used to using a computer. So I think Logitech needs to focus on addressing the source to the problem instead of making slimserver handling all kinds of strange environments. Some examples to this would be to: - Provide a prefered ripping and tagging tool with the product - Sell an optional small PC like hardware with preinstalled slimserver - Provide virutual machines with slimserver (for example VMware based) - Improve the installation program so people doesn't have to uninstall and reinstall every time they upgrade -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins' (http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer)) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Peter;175276 Wrote: erland wrote: Peter;175264 Wrote: erland wrote: I'm running my slimserver on a server and has only been running official releases on it. What OS does this server run? Regards, PeterLinux (Ubuntu), it has of course been restarted a few times during the year since I also use it as my web server, and slimserver has been restarted every time I have released a new plugin version. But what I am saying is that I haven't had any problems whatsoever with slimserver during this year. I thought so. I'm running Linux on my server too. I suspect that most problems are found running on Windows platforms. Regards, Peter Just as a side note, Windows can be very stable as a server to. The problem is when you use it as desktop and install new software and games every week and upgrade to new version of drivers now and then and start to install firewalls and antivirus software. A few years back I was running my web server on Windows (W2k I think) and it was as stable as my current Linux box. The reason that most problems are found on Windows is probably because there are more Windows users and the Windows computer often tend to also act as the ordinary desktop where all kind of strange things are installed. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins' (http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer)) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
- Provide virutual machines with slimserver (for example VMware based) SlimCD anyone? :-) -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Michael Herger wrote: - Provide virutual machines with slimserver (for example VMware based) SlimCD anyone? :-) Isn't it so that VMware allows you to distribute their player freely? That way you can make a VM with their VMWare server (also free) and ship the result with a player. I haven't done this but it could be pretty smooth... Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Isn't it so that VMware allows you to distribute their player freely? I don't know whether I am allowed to distribute it - but I wouldn't want anyway. It's freely available from their site. That way you can make a VM with their VMWare server (also free) and ship the result with a player. I haven't done this but it could be pretty smooth... It really is easy. And for an even easier experience there are live cd VMware images available on the internet: http://www.virtualization.info/2005/10/how-to-launch-iso-and-use-livecds.html -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Michael Herger wrote: Isn't it so that VMware allows you to distribute their player freely? I don't know whether I am allowed to distribute it - but I wouldn't want anyway. It's freely available from their site. http://www.vmware.com/products/player/ VMware Player lets you evaluate new or pre-release software contained in virtual machines, without any installation or configuration hassles. You can also share existing virtual machines with colleagues or friends---just use VMware Player to run any virtual machine. I thought you might want to distribute a VM version of slimCD... Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
I thought you might want to distribute a VM version of slimCD... I thought about this. But there are two reasons I don't think it makes a lot of sense: - setting up a VM yourself is really easy (given you're using that live disk VM) - the main problem remains the same as when using the CD with your computer: how to connect SlimCD to your collection - that's no easy task for a Linux newbie As an alternative I just did a quick test with a SlimNAS VM, based on FreeNAS, featuring two shares (Music and SlimNAS installation folder). A full install with a 100GB virtual disk would easily fit in a 100MB ZIP archive. But again: does it make sense copying a collection to a virtual disk, if it's already on your harddisk? And a VM run on your computer needs a lot more RAM than the SlimServer itself. So... while this is might be a good approach for demoing the possibilities, I don't think it's mass market. There must be something leaner than VMware to make this approach reasonable. -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Michael Herger wrote: I thought you might want to distribute a VM version of slimCD... I thought about this. But there are two reasons I don't think it makes a lot of sense: - setting up a VM yourself is really easy (given you're using that live disk VM) - the main problem remains the same as when using the CD with your computer: how to connect SlimCD to your collection - that's no easy task for a Linux newbie As an alternative I just did a quick test with a SlimNAS VM, based on FreeNAS, featuring two shares (Music and SlimNAS installation folder). A full install with a 100GB virtual disk would easily fit in a 100MB ZIP archive. But again: does it make sense copying a collection to a virtual disk, if it's already on your harddisk? And a VM run on your computer needs a lot more RAM than the SlimServer itself. So... while this is might be a good approach for demoing the possibilities, I don't think it's mass market. There must be something leaner than VMware to make this approach reasonable. OK, makes sense. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Haven't read the whole thread, but as a new (happy) user here is my input: I know this has propably been mentioned before, but the need for a running PC is annoying. NAS are expensive and can be difficult to implement. USB drive support and built-in slimserver would be huge. vH pH -- 27ph 27ph's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6588 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
this is a great post, i appreciate the consideration given without ire, i'll try to truncate my responses: erland;174700 Wrote: I'm not a GPL expert but I think it probably would be possible to do this as a separate thing from slimserver, the result would be that you wouldn't have to license it as GPL. as was pointed out, i don't know, i'm not a pro in these matters. but i would imagine that if i used any of their info in any way, they'd have the right to use my work. very reasonable imo. it just means that i probably couldn't make money off it, as someone else suggested i should try to, not that that was ever my intent. erland;174700 Wrote: From my perspective there is a number of ways to do it: 1. A device driver connecting to slimserver, using the already existing CLI interface to add and play the currently played track on your PC. 2. A device driver implementing SlimProto and connecting directly towards the SqueezeBox. In both situations you don't have to mix your code with any GPL licensed code, so you shouldn't have a problem with the GPL license. Note! I'm not sure my understanding of GPL is completely correct, so you might want to check with someone that knows it better before you start. no danger in me starting. and i have no problem in saying this isn't my field. of course, neither is politics, but i have opinions there too. ;) erland;174700 Wrote: Regarding a device driver you should note that there are a number of problems you need to solve. 1. You probably want some of your PC sound to go through the PC speakers and some other sounds to go through the SqueezeBox. So the software you are using on the PC probably would have to support some way of selecting output device. since xp supports multiple sound cards, a lot of apps allow you to pick the specific audio device, or the direct sound api, or what have you. so if the option is there, from an app perspective, its no problem. and this allows the user to send music only to one set of speakers, system sounds to another. erland;174700 Wrote: 2. The SqueezeBox is a networked device, networks sometimes sends data fast and sometimes not. SqueezeBox solves this by buffering all sound before its played. This works since slimserver knows the next thing that is going to be played so it can send it in advance to the SqueezeBox, that wouldn't be the case with a device driver. The result you probably be bad sound quality. I guess the SqueezeBox could buffer the data by it self, but you probably don't want a delay of 15 seconds from the time you press play until the music starts. Another issue with the buffering is that you probably expect the sound to be in sync with the visualization stuff in the player of your choice, due to the network and buffering this will probably be hard to accomplish. ok, admittedly i'm def out of my depth here... i am not sure first if anyone offers a tcp/ip audio device via device driver, but someone may. if so, it would show it could be done. i know in radio, there are very similar types of routing devices. but in any case, couldn't the driver work like a delay in terms of buffering? you hit play, and it starts to play right away, hopefully getting all the bits it needs for the first few seconds or so, while at the same time, you build up (buffer) the next seconds. this would be fairly easy for local files, but i can see where for net streams, a wait to play mode might have to take effect. of course, that not too far different from the current way it works now, (in terms of user interaction) that all of course assumes that the driver could request for the information to be pulled from the app faster than real time i guess... but the SB buffer could handle a lot in advance if it could, thus mitigating network problems. erland;174700 Wrote: If you are not a developer yourself, I'm sure there are many developers that would be interested in helping you if you just payed them for their work. As an example you might want to look at http://www.rentacoder.com or similar sites. i appreciate the suggestion, and actually i may use them for other stuff, but this is something i already paid for, and i don't think i should have to pay more for something that will benefit a lot of people, not just me. erland;174700 Wrote: All those companies selling iPod accessories sure have a hard time selling their stuff, don't they ? not really. i know thats your point, but its really not a valid comparison. erland;174700 Wrote: If a device driver solution were available, I'm sure it would be possible to get an agreement with SlimDevices/Logitech to announce it somewhere here. definitely. erland;174700 Wrote: I'm not into betting, but I think there is a lot of other things that are more important than a device driver. I would be dissapointed if SlimDevices/LogiTech choosed to write a device driver as the next thing instead of focusing on improving the current
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
another great post, i didn't see it b4 my last one... Listener;174719 Wrote: Sorry, I just can't get excited about out of sync visualizations. A good laugh maybe. Staying in sync with video when you are using a Squeezebox for audio output is a much more serious problem. If you make the Squeezebox a regular audio device, customers will expect it to do everything any other audio output device does. That includes playing audio that accompanies video. Bill i agree on the visualizations, not my concern. i don't necessarily agree users would demand video sync just because esp if a disclaimer was present at download. however, if the audio had the necessary bw locally, how behind would it be to any video? would it always be noticeable? or only depending? or would it always grow slowly out of sync over time? -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174722 Wrote: i agree on the visualizations, not my concern. i don't necessarily agree users would demand video sync just because esp if a disclaimer was present at download. however, if the audio had the necessary bw locally, how behind would it be to any video? would it always be noticeable? or only depending? or would it always grow slowly out of sync over time?I can't say for sure since I don't know exactly how device drivers work. But I suspect the software is pushing data to the device driver at the exact time the software wants the data to be played. At the same time the software would push video to the graphic card to show on the monitor. If the device driver works this way (which I am not completely sure of) then it would mean that the: - The sound is going through the network (which might be wireless) and into the SqueezeBox and out to the reciever and finally out in the speakers. - The video is going internally in the computer into the graphic card and out to the display. Obviously there is no way the sound and video would be able to move at the same speed to their final destination. The result would be sync issues between audio and video. One way around this is if the video also went through the SqueezeBox, which isn't possible today, then the SqueezeBox could make sure the video and sound was synchronized. Another way is if the software player had options for delaying the video a little, then the video and audio could arrive at the same time. At least as long as the network speed was exactly the same at all times, which it isn't in most networks especially not in wireless networks. As a side point, if any buffering should happen in this senario if device drivers works as I think it must happen all the time. This mean that when you hit play it will take a while until the music starts. The reason that this works with slimserver is because slimserver sends the sound in advance to SqueezeBox, SqueezeBox starts playing directly with no buffer but then the slimserver sends the data faster than SqueezeBox needs it to fill up the buffer. I suspect this would probably not be possible in a device driver solution, the software probably sends the sound information exactly when it should be played. Please note that if device drivers doesn't work as I think most of the information above is incorrect. The reason I would like the device driver to happen as a 3rd party thing is that SlimDevices/Logitech probably has limted resources and have to choose what they want the developers to do. A device driver is something that most current SqueezeBox owners probably aren't interested in, so it makes much more sense if SlimDevices/Logitech focused on features that most people wanted and left the unusual stuff to 3rd party developers. A device driver is also something that is completely different to implement compared to the existing slimserver code. So I would guess that some additional education/training of the developers would be required. It this instead happened through a 3rd party developer which already have worked with device driver I suspect that the result could be achieved much faster. Anyway, I haven't read all your posts lately, so I am not sure if you have answered these questions already: 1. Is the reason for a device driver just that you want to start playing music from a specific software you already know instead of using the slimserver/SqueezeBox interfaces ? In that case, do you have a specific software in mind or does it have to work with everything ? 2. Is it for both locally stored music and internet radio and other music not stored on the local computer ? 3. Is it just for playing music or are you also thinking about using this as a way of view videos or redirecting sounds in games to SqueezeBox ? I'm asking these questions just to get an idea why you want a device driver. A device driver is probably one solution but there might also be other solutions available that also solves your problem. Regarding GPL, it is definitely no problem making non GPL software that uses open specifications/APIs of GPL software. In that case it would be impossible to sell any commercial software on the Linux platform and such software do exist. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
don't miss my reply to you as well, its the post b4 the one of mine you just quoted. real quick: i think SD would gain adoptions with a device driver. i don't think it would tax their resources too much, and be well worth it in the long run. i only ask that it pass the audio on. features could be done via 3rd party, but establishing it first is what i want SD to do. to answer a question rudely put forth earlier, i GUESSED 3-4 weeks b/c obviously the slim team has a lot of gifted programmers and know alot about coding audio. they also have some exp with coding audio for different platforms. i'd bet with logitech now heading the project, they could put 2 and 2 together and what i'm asking for out there pretty quick. its a complement to them, imo. also, i know less than u about device drivers i'm sure, but i gather from what the other poster said that the driver itself could buffer at least some of it, esp local files. i'm not sure how well it could do that in real time things like net streams though. if there had to be a slight delay, as opposed to other [traditional] sound card methods, i could live with that. like i said, its not much different than the SB today as is. erland;174726 Wrote: Anyway, I haven't read all your posts lately, so I am not sure if you have answered these questions already: understandable. erland;174726 Wrote: 1. Is the reason for a device driver just that you want to start playing music from a specific software you already know instead of using the slimserver/SqueezeBox interfaces ? partially, yes, certainly. i love winamp. but also b/c i simply don't like SS, for a whole host of reasons, from bugs to difficulty of use to resource hogging, etc... erland;174726 Wrote: In that case, do you have a specific software in mind or does it have to work with everything ? for me, winamp, but i would expect it would work with any app capable of streaming bits to a sound device. erland;174726 Wrote: 2. Is it for both locally stored music and internet radio and other music not stored on the local computer ? yes, i listen to mp3 streams, as well as local mp3s. erland;174726 Wrote: 3. Is it just for playing music or are you also thinking about using this as a way of view videos or redirecting sounds in games to SqueezeBox ? definitely secondary to my concerns. it would be neat to play DVD audio on it, but i don't know if SB can do 5.1 or anything beyond normal stereo, can it? still, if the network was latent free, and the buffer started audio immediately, and then built itself up, is it not possible it would sync to the video? erland;174726 Wrote: I'm asking these questions just to get an idea why you want a device driver. A device driver is probably one solution but there might also be other solutions available that also solves your problem. my main reason is b/c i truly don't like SS or the remote as a way to use the SB, due to bugs and inelegance of usage. erland;174726 Wrote: Regarding GPL, it is definitely no problem making non GPL software that uses open specifications/APIs of GPL software. In that case it would be impossible to sell any commercial software on the Linux platform and such software do exist. i could be wrong, i really don't know... but if i were to use information i got from SD, wouldn't i then have to give it back to them, and they then could use it however they wanted to? and even if not, how would i stop this close knit community from buying once and sharing 1 times? in any case, its moot b/c i won't do it, and i wouldn't want to make moeny off of it anyway... that was someone elses petulent remark. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
*MrSinatra*, I just search a bit on google and found SHOUTcast: http://www.shoutcast.com If I understand it correctly it is a server software you can install on your computer to publish internet radio. There is a WinAmp plugin to send things played through WinAmp to SHOUTcast. SqueezeBox is able to listen to internet radio, so you can probably point the SqueezeBox to your local SHOUTcast server and to listen to the sound your PC is publishing. I haven't tried this myself so I'm not sure how easy it is to setup and if it actually works with the SqueezeBox, but I think there is a chance it will. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
erland;174728 Wrote: *MrSinatra*, I just search a bit on google and found SHOUTcast: http://www.shoutcast.com If I understand it correctly it is a server software you can install on your computer to publish internet radio. There is a WinAmp plugin to send things played through WinAmp to SHOUTcast. SqueezeBox is able to listen to internet radio, so you can probably point the SqueezeBox to your local SHOUTcast server and to listen to the sound your PC is publishing. I haven't tried this myself so I'm not sure how easy it is to setup and if it actually works with the SqueezeBox, but I think there is a chance it will. yeah, i absolutely could do that... i use it to put my radio stations streams on the net. but that whole method is a bit of a kludge, it requires that i run a lot of software in addition to what i already do, it also adds additional coding stages and so on, meaning it would re-encode in realtime everything i already compressed once, even if at the same bitrate... (i could be wrong on that point, but i think thats how the DSP works) but yes, it would absolutely work and thx for your efforts in finding it. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: also, i know less than u about device drivers i'm sure, but i gather from what the other poster said that the driver itself could buffer at least some of it, esp local files. i'm not sure how well it could do that in real time things like net streams though. Drivers can't buffer local files. They just get the raw audio data from the application that's feeding them. if there had to be a slight delay, as opposed to other [traditional] sound card methods, i could live with that. like i said, its not much different than the SB today as is. For some applications delays would be fatal. erland;174726 Wrote: Anyway, I haven't read all your posts lately, so I am not sure if you have answered these questions already: understandable. erland;174726 Wrote: 1. Is the reason for a device driver just that you want to start playing music from a specific software you already know instead of using the slimserver/SqueezeBox interfaces ? partially, yes, certainly. i love winamp. but also b/c i simply don't like SS, for a whole host of reasons, from bugs to difficulty of use to resource hogging, etc... erland;174726 Wrote: In that case, do you have a specific software in mind or does it have to work with everything ? for me, winamp, but i would expect it would work with any app capable of streaming bits to a sound device. erland;174726 Wrote: 2. Is it for both locally stored music and internet radio and other music not stored on the local computer ? yes, i listen to mp3 streams, as well as local mp3s. erland;174726 Wrote: 3. Is it just for playing music or are you also thinking about using this as a way of view videos or redirecting sounds in games to SqueezeBox ? definitely secondary to my concerns. it would be neat to play DVD audio on it, but i don't know if SB can do 5.1 or anything beyond normal stereo, can it? Yes it can if you use the digital out. (never tried it but I read others have) still, if the network was latent free, and the buffer started audio immediately, and then built itself up, is it not possible it would sync to the video? I don't think so. I think when playing video and audio through a normal media player application, the audio is sent to the device driver in real time. Therefore the mythical slim driver would be unable to send future audio to the SB, which would be unable to buffer, unless the SB played with a delay. Some delay is of course acceptable, but with video/audio sync it quickly becomes annoying. Ethernet is an unreliable medium, because collisions can occur at any moment. The busier the network, the more likely the collisions. With wireless ethernet these problems are even bigger because all stations share the same bandwidth and radio interference may cause problems. If a collision or other transmission error occurs packets must be resent and delays will happen. If you have a small buffer any delay will lead to (very annoying) dropouts in the sound. When playing with a minimal buffer any considerable network activity (like copying a file from one workstation to another) will probably interfere with your video playing. The customers will complain loudly. erland;174726 Wrote: I'm asking these questions just to get an idea why you want a device driver. A device driver is probably one solution but there might also be other solutions available that also solves your problem. my main reason is b/c i truly don't like SS or the remote as a way to use the SB, due to bugs and inelegance of usage. You're looking for a replacement. I'd like it as a nice extra since I really like the SS architecture. I've explained elsewhere that those people looking for a replacement wouldn't stop at just a device driver. They'd want to use the remote and the display as well. Why pay for it if you can't use it? erland;174726 Wrote: Regarding GPL, it is definitely no problem making non GPL software that uses open specifications/APIs of GPL software. In that case it would be impossible to sell any commercial software on the Linux platform and such software do exist. i could be wrong, i really don't know... but if i were to use information i got from SD, wouldn't i then have to give it back to them, and they then could use it however they wanted to? No, not if it were just information. If you use GPL code, then you have to share your product's source code with the world. and even if not, how would i stop this close knit community from buying once and sharing 1 times? I don't think they would. in any case, its moot b/c i won't do it, and i wouldn't want to make moeny off of it anyway... that was someone elses petulent remark. If you don't want to make money, then copying is no problem either, is it? Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174721 Wrote: but i would imagine that if i used any of their info in any way, they'd have the right to use my work. very reasonable imo. it just means that i probably couldn't make money off it, as someone else suggested i should try to, not that that was ever my intent. Please...just *please* stop this nonsense. Stop speaking authoritatively (or even guessing) about things you know nothing about. If you want to know why people here consider you rude/abrasive, this is exactly why. Statements like this are borderline FUD and you need to knock it off. -- Victor I'm against animal testing. They get all nervous and give the wrong answers. Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Totally agree with Victor. Mr Sinatra has admitted he knows nothing about developement, device drivers or the GPL but still believes all his grand plans are possible. But what really made me laugh was this pearl of wisdom yeah, for OPERATING SYSTEMS, not pass thru device drivers. besides, i would want them to be further developed by volunteers, once established. Now what exactly makes you think volunteers are going to touch the project your suggesting? I'm sure your constant bitching about features you don't like and/or bugs will be real motivating. Now getting back to the original reason you started posting. Something in 6.5 broke your favourite radio stream. You've also found some other bugs. Well you have options. Go back to 6.31 being the most obvious. What I can't stand is people who continually want/suggest new features for Slimserver, and upgrade, but then begin bitching when something breaks. These people typically couldn't be bothered to log a bug. No one forces you to upgrade. If 6.31 was working for you, stay with it. Also you knew Slimserver was part of the deal when you bought your SB. You even had 30 days to return it if you weren't happy. Look at software from rival companies, and look at their support forums. You'll find in most cases, the likes of Philips and Sony give you 0 new features once you buy their product and leave plenty of bugs unfixed. -- oreillymj oreillymj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=699 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: well vic, my guess is that if i developed the software, i'd have to give them the source code, which they then could use and develop freely and distribute, so who would pay for what i did? You should really _read_ the GPL. The only people you have to distribute source to are the people that you distribute (ie: sell) your binaries to. - Marc ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
both of you guys need to knock it off... its not like i ever said i WAS a developer or i knew this stuff like the back of my hand. i am free to propose things, and i am HAPPY to be corrected, civilly. try it. also, i did help get andy to fix a bug re:winamp/shoutcast, (new in todays nightly download) altho i haven't had a chance try it yet. but sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. and i have bothered to file a bug. and if SD put out a ver 1.0 of the mythical device driver, (great term), i'm sure the community here would work on them, and not b/c of anything to do with me. you guys are funny in how much bile (as someone else likes to say) you can generate simply b/c someone else says something that they disagree with, (and again, i don't say the disagreement isn't valid, but the over-reaction absolutely is not). get a grip fellas, its just a music server. and yeah, i'd still like to see a driver. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174794 Wrote: its not like i ever said i WAS a developer or i knew this stuff like the back of my hand. i am free to propose things, and i am HAPPY to be corrected, civilly. try it. Then why do you feel the need to pontificate, discuss, and argue on topics you clearly know nothing about? Screw it. I am done feeding this troll.*Plonk* http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/P/plonk.html -- Victor I'm against animal testing. They get all nervous and give the wrong answers. Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Victor;174807 Wrote: Then why do you feel the need to pontificate, discuss, and argue on topics you clearly know nothing about? Well, to be completely honest, we all do that! It's only by doing so that we get corrected and learn from the experience. The Slim fora can get very hostile to any poster who is off-message, i.e. if you don't think Slim is the best thing since sliced bread etc., whereas the reality is that it isn't perfect and the best way to make it better is to examine its shortcomings and listen to users, no matter how uncomfortable that may be and how much you'd like to ignore them (or smack them round the face) It's the part of product development that is the most rewarding yet the most frustrating - the end customer. Why aren't they happy, I love the product, so why don't they? Are they dumb, can't they see the brilliance of the design? Why are they complaining just because they laid down X dollars for a device, what rights do they think they honestly have? eh?!!! The truth is that the Slim system hasn't actually advanced that much over the years compared to other technology. It is still essentially a back end server with a thin client playing audio. True it's pretty damn fine audio, but the SLIMP did that years ago, why does the user interface still feel clunky compared to where the market is? In the meantime we have had HD TV, HD-projectors, Blue-Ray, iPhones, AppleTV, XBox-360 and all manner of devices rasing the media bar, so people's expectations have risen too. The SB box has evolved to the Transporter, so we have a better DAC, but the experience hasn't entirely evolved with it. It still needs end users to assemble a bunch of software to rip and serve music, whilst companies like Sonos appear to have claimed the high-end in the perception of the reviewers. Sure it's cool to be the true audiophile product, but it sure stings when others like Olive, Sonos and Sooloos are presented as the true high end because they are more slick. SlimServer needs to stop evolving from open source collective approach and be taken by the scruff of the neck and shown some real UI design, establish true use case, build in affordance and become a typical-user product whereby user manuals and fora are redundant. If you have to read the manual or ask a question on a newsgroup, the developers have failed. If you don't believe this, then you have't understood consumer software development because supporting consumers costs money - it is to be avoided at all costs. BTW, the device driver concept is ultimately flawed, it doesn't move forwards usability one iota, it's another bit of technology that doesn't improve the product per-se, just complicates it further. The end game is audio quality and access to music as easily and obviously as possible. If the idea doesn't contribute to that, ditch it. Support for iTunes would be smart, however much it hurts the open source mentality, it here to stay, so being the best network player can become a viable existance. If it needs a device driver to do that, then fine, but it shouldn't be an aim in its own right. Think about what you are trying to achieve, not the technology, technology is a means to an end. Rant over! -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Marc Sherman wrote: MrSinatra wrote: well vic, my guess is that if i developed the software, i'd have to give them the source code, which they then could use and develop freely and distribute, so who would pay for what i did? You should really _read_ the GPL. The only people you have to distribute source to are the people that you distribute (ie: sell) your binaries to. But they can distribute copies to anyone they want, right? Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Now getting back to the original reason you started posting. Something in 6.5 broke your favourite radio stream. ...and Andy did check in a possible fix for it. Did anyone of you test it or are you too busy designing device drivers for the SB? -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: from a business model perspective, what i said is true, 20mill or not. Sorry, I forgot. Everything you say is true. No-one else has a clue. Must remember that in future. R. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
gimmie a break. look, its as simple as this: IF you accept the notion, that a product, any product, will make more money if its potential market is bigger, rather than smaller, than what i said is true. its not rocket science, and its not a matter of me pushing a subjective opinion. it is a fact of the free market. thats all i'm saying. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Slimserver is not bug free. Name one piece of software that is. Windows is riddled with them, but I'm sure you've e-mail Bill Gates to tell him how he can fix that product and increase market share. For me Slimserver runs 24/7 and has done for months with 0 problems, but maybe that's just me. Maybe I have lower expectations than you. I use my system to listen to MP3's. -- oreillymj oreillymj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=699 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
well i can't even click on T or U or V without it crashing. i can't listen to my fave webstream most of the time either. and i am not alone in complaining about the bugs. u can get all offended although it makes no sense to, but i am saying with valid reason to do so, that this product is not ready for prime time. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174556 Wrote: gimmie a break. look, its as simple as this: IF you accept the notion, that a product, any product, will make more money if its potential market is bigger, rather than smaller, than what i said is true. its not rocket science, and its not a matter of me pushing a subjective opinion. it is a fact of the free market. thats all i'm saying. Well, that notion of yours does conveniently assume away any costs for development of, and support for, the additional software and device drivers. It also conveniently overlooks another basic fact of the free market: people vote with their wallets. They buy those things that best meet their wants and needs, within their given budgets. Frankly, I don't give a rat's derriere whether a product does what you want it to do. I buy it to do what I want it to do, and assume you will buy what meets your needs. Adam Smith's invisible hand and all that And producers won't necessarily try to please both of us (product differentiation), which is well demonstrated by the current offerings from SD, Apple, Olive, etc. If you're so convinced that there's demand for an alternative way to feed music to the SB, then go for it. The slim protocol is documented, so SD doesn't have to be the provider any more than Dell needs to include a Linux CD in every box. It doesn't matter if you can't program it yourself -- you have such a slam dunk business concept that you can hire the code-flunkies and split the proceeds. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
aubuti;174579 Wrote: Well, that notion of yours does conveniently assume away any costs for development of, and support for, the additional software and device drivers. actually, quite the opposite. all along i have said SS is a gigantic cost providing little return. its an aspect of their business model i don't get. it may be viable, but its not efficient. in any case, i agree that there would be minor costs in developing a device driver, perhaps 3-4 weeks investment, and probably a one time deal at that per OS, (where there would surely be overlap btw). however, this relatively minor cost, would surely pay off, as many more people could actually then use one of these things, with pgms they already know how to use and like. i have never recommended a SB to anyone, b/c most people i know aren't tech enough to deal with it, and of those who are, they would think i'd gone nuts in this esoteric byzatineness of the device. HOWEVER, if it had this layer between OS and device, i could even get my parents to use it. sorry, it just seems obvious to me. don't know why that offends you. aubuti;174579 Wrote: It also conveniently overlooks another basic fact of the free market: people vote with their wallets. i fail to see how i overlooked that. in fact, many other products are far more successful. why? costs perhaps, but also ease of use perhaps. aubuti;174579 Wrote: They buy those things that best meet their wants and needs, within their given budgets. Frankly, I don't give a rat's derriere whether a product does what you want it to do. I buy it to do what I want it to do, and assume you will buy what meets your needs. Adam Smith's invisible hand and all that and i am arguing against that? huh? aubuti;174579 Wrote: And producers won't necessarily try to please both of us (product differentiation), which is well demonstrated by the current offerings from SD, Apple, Olive, etc. so, your position is that if i take the SD solution today, [SB/SS] and add another feature to it, [OS device driver], i will NOT gain anymore sales inspite of the rather large increase in potential market such a move is sure to provide? comeon now, you can't seriously be arguing that increasing potential market size is NOT in SDs best interests, can you? or that having a device driver would do just that, can you? aubuti;174579 Wrote: If you're so convinced that there's demand for an alternative way to feed music to the SB, then go for it. The slim protocol is documented, so SD doesn't have to be the provider any more than Dell needs to include a Linux CD in every box. It doesn't matter if you can't program it yourself -- you have such a slam dunk business concept that you can hire the code-flunkies and split the proceeds. well, i have no financial incentive to, Slim does imo. that can anger you for reasons that baffle me, but it doesn't change the dynamics of the situation. like i've said, i bet logitech gets the memo, and we'll see something along these lines. i just hope its for the product i already own, not a new one. and of course, just to be clear, i'm not saying either/or, i'm saying why not both? if you can explain how expanding the potential market is not in slims interest, i would be curious to hear it. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174591 Wrote: in any case, i agree that there would be minor costs in developing a device driver, perhaps 3-4 weeks investment, and probably a one time deal at that per OS, (where there would surely be overlap btw). Not to quibble, but how can you so blithely make the 3-4 week claim? We're talking about a whole fresh code base, from scratch, as far as I can see. I would think that there would be more than 3-4 weeks just in QA time for such a thing. Never mind little things like time to design it, etc. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174591 Wrote: well, i have no financial incentive to, Slim does imo. But you do. The people are clamoring for it, you'll sell millions when SD's market share shoots up. Maybe you can even sell it to SD/Logitech. Quit your day job. It's a slam dunk. and btw, I'm neither offended nor angry. Just a little amused, especially at the contention that market share is the only measure of success. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
aubuti;174596 Wrote: But you do. The people are clamoring for it, you'll sell millions when SD's market share shoots up. Maybe you can even sell it to SD/Logitech. Quit your day job. It's a slam dunk. first of all, i'm sure the GPL would prevent me from selling it even if i developed it. secondly, it would be very difficult to sell as a 3rd party item. its like selling 3rd party chips for a car or xbox... if the car maker, or xbox itself offerred it, they would be far more successful. the idea is to push the main product anyway, not a 3rd party item. aubuti;174596 Wrote: and btw, I'm neither offended nor angry. Just a little amused, especially at the contention that market share is the only measure of success. straw man, i never said that. there are many measures of success, and i would not argue that SD hasn't been a success. what i am saying, and i stand by this 100%, is that making your potential market larger is in the best interests of a business selling a product, at least certainly so in this case. and i don't hear a plausible argument to the contrary. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174599 Wrote: what i am saying, and i stand by this 100%, is that making your potential market larger is in the best interests of a business selling a product, at least certainly so in this case. Well it's a little more complicated when you have several products with overlapping markets. There's less to gain when one product is canibalizing your own sales. You've said Logitech will get the memo, but fact is, they already sell the product you describe (more or less). It's just not an SB. Maybe there will be convergence, maybe there will be continued differentiation. I would bet on the latter, but I wouldn't presume to tell SD or Logitech which is better for them. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174599 Wrote: first of all, i'm sure the GPL would prevent me from selling it even if i developed it. Of all of the inane things you've said in this thread (and there's been quite a few), this is by far the dumbest one. You might want to hurry up and get on the phone to RedHat, Oracle, IBM, Nokia, and thousands of other companies to tell them that the GPL is preventing them from selling the software they have in the marketplace. -- Victor I'm against animal testing. They get all nervous and give the wrong answers. Victor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2181 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
well vic, my guess is that if i developed the software, i'd have to give them the source code, which they then could use and develop freely and distribute, so who would pay for what i did? you're right tho, i'm not a developer and i only have tertiary knowledge. way to be classy pointing that out. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174624 Wrote: well vic, my guess is that if i developed the software, i'd have to give them the source code, which they then could use and develop freely and distribute, so who would pay for what i did? you're right tho, i'm not a developer and i only have tertiary knowledge. way to be classy pointing that out. Open source companies exist, nevertheless. They usually get paid for consulting/service and sometimes custom (pay) versions of their products. From the 4-6 weeks comment, I would say you have a level of knowledge that is asymptotically approaching zero. Yet you persist in making claims about what it would take to do things. Do expect people not to call you on that? I'm not saying that I think slimserver is the best piece of software I've ever seen (I mean, there are really amazing things like photoshop out there). But mindless ranting and spouting of pretend-knowledge certainly won't help. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
totoro;174635 Wrote: Open source companies exist, nevertheless. They usually get paid for consulting/service and sometimes custom (pay) versions of their products. yeah, for OPERATING SYSTEMS, not pass thru device drivers. besides, i would want them to be further developed by volunteers, once established. totoro;174635 Wrote: From the 4-6 weeks comment, I would say you have a level of knowledge that is asymptotically approaching zero. Yet you persist in making claims about what it would take to do things. Do expect people not to call you on that? i expect people not to get rude just b/c they disagree with me. and i will readily admit that i'm not a developer, but i am not a novice either. and you guys can't have it both ways... you can't say its some monumental task, and then turn around and say the streaming protocol is out there, you do it even while u bash me for being ignorant. totoro;174635 Wrote: I'm not saying that I think slimserver is the best piece of software I've ever seen (I mean, there are really amazing things like photoshop out there). But mindless ranting and spouting of pretend-knowledge certainly won't help. mindless ranting? you guys really do take the cake. how dare i! how dare i suggest something! just who do i think i am?! -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
I didn't get rude with you because I disagreed with you. I got rude with you because you made a plainly idiotic statement (about development time) which you were clearly unqualified to make, while being snotty yourself. And yes, amazingly, programmers get shirty when business-types go around spouting froth about how easy or hard a development task is, and what the schedule should be. What about that surprises you? -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
anyone care to bet if the next product that the slim/logitech team does has a device driver app? just friendly wagers, any takers? -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174599 Wrote: first of all, i'm sure the GPL would prevent me from selling it even if i developed it. I'm not a GPL expert but I think it probably would be possible to do this as a separate thing from slimserver, the result would be that you wouldn't have to license it as GPL. From my perspective there is a number of ways to do it: 1. A device driver connecting to slimserver, using the already existing CLI interface to add and play the currently played track on your PC. 2. A device driver implementing SlimProto and connecting directly towards the SqueezeBox. In both situations you don't have to mix your code with any GPL licensed code, so you shouldn't have a problem with the GPL license. Note! I'm not sure my understanding of GPL is completely correct, so you might want to check with someone that knows it better before you start. Regarding a device driver you should note that there are a number of problems you need to solve. 1. You probably want some of your PC sound to go through the PC speakers and some other sounds to go through the SqueezeBox. So the software you are using on the PC probably would have to support some way of selecting output device. 2. The SqueezeBox is a networked device, networks sometimes sends data fast and sometimes not. SqueezeBox solves this by buffering all sound before its played. This works since slimserver knows the next thing that is going to be played so it can send it in advance to the SqueezeBox, that wouldn't be the case with a device driver. The result you probably be bad sound quality. I guess the SqueezeBox could buffer the data by it self, but you probably don't want a delay of 15 seconds from the time you press play until the music starts. Another issue with the buffering is that you probably expect the sound to be in sync with the visualization stuff in the player of your choice, due to the network and buffering this will probably be hard to accomplish. If you are not a developer yourself, I'm sure there are many developers that would be interested in helping you if you just payed them for their work. As an example you might want to look at http://www.rentacoder.com or similar sites. MrSinatra;174599 Wrote: secondly, it would be very difficult to sell as a 3rd party item. its like selling 3rd party chips for a car or xbox... if the car maker, or xbox itself offerred it, they would be far more successful.All those companies selling iPod accessories sure have a hard time selling their stuff, don't they ? If a device driver solution were available, I'm sure it would be possible to get an agreement with SlimDevices/Logitech to announce it somewhere here. MrSinatra;174692 Wrote: anyone care to bet if the next product that the slim/logitech team does has a device driver app? I'm not into betting, but I think there is a lot of other things that are more important than a device driver. I would be dissapointed if SlimDevices/LogiTech choosed to write a device driver as the next thing instead of focusing on improving the current SlimServer/SqueezeBox architecture. If a device driver could be written by a 3rd party developer on the other hand that would be good, then you would get what you want and I would still get the benefit of improvements in the current architecture by SlimDevices/Logitech. As I see it this is one of the strenghts with the open source solution with available protocol specifications. SlimDevices/Logitech can focus on the core and 3rd party developers can focus and the add-ons and bells and whistles. What I'm a bit tired of is people that just complain on the current solution and aren't willing to help improving it themself or paying for someone else to do it. I still appreciate that people are announcing what things they like to be improved, because thats a matter of getting feedback, but when they just repeat the same thing over and over again it is starting to get a bit annoying. You should be aware of that although many parts of SlimServer has been written by SlimDevices there are also a lot of contributors who have spent their free time without any salary contributing to it in one way or another. Some contribute by writing code, others contribute by helping to find bugs or beta testing the stuff. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Erland, I appreciate your efforts in developing plugins for SS. 1. A device driver connecting to slimserver, using the already existing CLI interface to add and play the currently played track on your PC. I don't understand this at all. A device driver gets a stream of audio data. It does not get a file name to associate with that stream. 2. A device driver implementing SlimProto and connecting directly towards the SqueezeBox. Yes. Another alternative is to send the stream of audio data to SlimServer. A Slimmer Server would be more attractive for this purpose. 1. You probably want some of your PC sound to go through the PC speakers and some other sounds to go through the SqueezeBox. So the software you are using on the PC probably would have to support some way of selecting output device. The [Squeezebox] device driver would tell Windows that there is one output device for each SB or Transporter. Windows has a mechanism for selecting the default output device. An application can choose the output device it wants from a list of available output devices or just use the default one. Windows will continue to send system sounds to the default output device. 2. The SqueezeBox is a networked device, networks sometimes sends data fast and sometimes not. ... I don't think that the situation is qualitatively different when you are routing audio output from another player to the Squeezebox. There would probably be a quantitative ddifference in total buffering. The most obvious effect of increased buffering is that Fast forward/rewind commands seem to be slow and out of sync. That happens now. Windows XP is a poor environment for a real time task; it is quite common to fix glitches by increasing the size of buffers in the driver and the player application. The problem of slow response to FF/Rewind commands is already present and we live with it. Another issue with the buffering is that you probably expect the sound to be in sync with the visualization stuff in the player of your choice, due to the network and buffering this will probably be hard to accomplish. Sorry, I just can't get excited about out of sync visualizations. A good laugh maybe. Staying in sync with video when you are using a Squeezebox for audio output is a much more serious problem. If you make the Squeezebox a regular audio device, customers will expect it to do everything any other audio output device does. That includes playing audio that accompanies video. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Exactly, because in my experience, it's not an easy sell at all. When I show people my Squeezeboxes and tell them how they work their eyes just sort of become blank and they start talking about the weather or something. Part of that is probably because they know I'm technically far ahead of them, what I use must be far ahead of them as well. Even my technical colleagues are slow to warm up. One of them has bought a second hand SB1 now. I know I'm not the world's greatest salesmen, but the product is hard to explain, just check the I've read and read thread by metroman. That's fairly typical and he got here because he thought he really wanted one. Don' explain how it works. People don't care about the technical details. Just show them what you can do with it. They'll understand that. That's what I did with people around me. I talked about it to my brother, who is not technically minded at all, and he was all jazzed up: Wow! where can I get one? Unfortunately, I had to break to him the bad news: : Sorry, but if you don't know beans about computers, I don't recommend it. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Nostromo;174145 Wrote: Unfortunately, I had to break to him the bad news: : Sorry, but if you don't know beans about computers, I don't recommend it. 'Look how cool this is' ... 'You're a bit too thick to be able to use one' ... Did he hit you? :D Seriously though, I agree - Slim need a simpler system. I think that the device driver approach (while useless for me) might work, provided that any delay in sync is fairly small. I've spent ages getting my SB3 working the way I like it (and I have manifested OCD in tagging classical music...), but most won't. Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Nostromo;174145 Wrote: Don' explain how it works. People don't care about the technical details. Just show them what you can do with it. They'll understand that. That's what I did with people around me. I talked about it to my brother, who is not technically minded at all, and he was all jazzed up: Wow! where can I get one? Unfortunately, I had to break to him the bad news: : Sorry, but if you don't know beans about computers, I don't recommend it. hilarious, this is sublime... the first guy says they glaze over when told how it works, so the second guy says no! don't tell them how it works, show them so they get all into it and then at THAT POINT say, pft, your dumbass can't handle the truth! hilarious! that short lil exchange more than any other goes to PROVE that the SB needs, MUST, get a virtual device driver for differing operating systems, starting with XP since its the major one. if i can't do dvd sync'd to video, fine, but i would love using winamp to power my SB, and i'm not alone. many people out there want to use the hardware, but want to use their software of choice with it, not some amalgem of mysql, browser, scanner, that oh by the way, can't rip, can't edit, etc... its such a slam dunk, WHY isn't anyone at SD doing it? why are they forcing all of us to use FREE software? wouldn't their hardware be better served by letting any software use it? -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174223 Wrote: its such a slam dunk, WHY isn't anyone at SD doing it? why are they forcing all of us to use FREE software? wouldn't their hardware be better served by letting any software use it? Because most of us see little difference between that and a Long Ass Cable to the stereo? And wtf is the forcing all of us to use FREE software? If you want to replace mysql with Oracle or MS-SQL, go for it... I really don't see what the copyright has to do with anything at all. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
snarlydwarf;174228 Wrote: Because most of us see little difference between that and a Long Ass Cable to the stereo? what do you mean? you don't understand the difference? the difference is i would not need the cable. the difference is i could use any software, not just SS. how do you not understand that? snarlydwarf;174228 Wrote: And wtf is the forcing all of us to use FREE software? If you want to replace mysql with Oracle or MS-SQL, go for it... I really don't see what the copyright has to do with anything at all. perhaps i worded this poorly, allow me to expound: SD FORCES US to use SS to power their hardware. thats what i mean. often, on these forums, when someone criicizes SD/SS, much is made of how the software is FREE, and all we paid for is the hardware, with lil thought given to the fact that this is the only software that powers the hardware. my point is, in the SD business model, WHY would they tie their hardware, (which is not free) to free software? do you not see the financial insanity of that? if the hardware is all they make money on, then the adoption rate of it would be FAR HIGHER if it worked with any software. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
shabbs;173921 Wrote: Long live the cables! No, follow the gourd! -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
I suspect that the potential increase in sales revenue generated by allowing any software to server music to the SB would be more than offset by the increase in development costs that would be required for the SB to accommodate such diversity. -- smc2911 smc2911's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4388 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174242 Wrote: what do you mean? you don't understand the difference? the difference is i would not need the cable. the difference is i could use any software, not just SS. how do you not understand that? You do know that there are long-ass-virtual-cable products like the Airport Express or others from DLink and ... Logitech? If that is what you want, you can get one of those much cheaper than an SB. SD FORCES US to use SS to power their hardware. thats what i mean. ... No one forced you to buy a Squeezebox. You can use whatever software you want. That it doesn't work is the problem of the software. OMG, I cant use WORD to play music! Hint: you -can- use Winamp to play music. Most people, though, bought a squeezebox so that they could control it remotely and not sit at a computer. That remote control is what seperates the Squeezebox from something like Airport Express or the Dlink and Logitech products. often, on these forums, when someone criicizes SD/SS, much is made of how the software is FREE, and all we paid for is the hardware, with lil thought given to the fact that this is the only software that powers the hardware. No, what people are saying is that the software is Free, as in Libris, as in Liberty, not as in Free Beer: if you don't like the way the software works, then you can change it! Don't like the way J. River works? Tough. Don't like the way Itunes works? Tough. If you don't like the way Slimserver works: go download the code and change it. my point is, in the SD business model, WHY would they tie their hardware, (which is not free) to free software? do you not see the financial insanity of that? No, I see that you have difficulties with words having more than one meaning. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174242 Wrote: SD FORCES US to use SS to power their hardware. thats what i mean. Complaining that SlimDevices forces us to use SlimServer is like complaining that Mazda forces you to use the rotary engine. Others could explain this a lot more clearly than me, but its my understanding that SS is an intrinsic part of Squeezebox, its not just another media player. You couldn't simply replace it with iTunes or Windows media player, not without loss of functionality. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
JimC;167482 Wrote: Hi there. My name is Jim Carlton. I'm a Virgo. I like long walks on the beach, candlelit dinners, and dancing under the stars. Wait! That's my match.com ad copy. Actually, I'm the new Director of Product Marketing here at Slim -- now known as the SMS Business Unit at Logitech. Prior to accepting this role, I was the iPod/MP3 and wireless music business manager for Logitech in the America's region. And before that, I've had stints as one of the founders of Virgin Electronics, as a jack-of-lots-of-trades at Creative Labs, and further back than that just doesn't really matter. My first order of business here is to offload some of the work of integrating Slim with Logitech, so Sean and Dean can get back to sleeping once in a while. Overall, I'll be responsible for the customer-facing aspects of this business, and for helping shape how we tell the rest of the world about how great the products are... To that end, I would absolutely love to hear from the community about what you think is great about Slim Devices/Squeezebox/Transporter and about what we can do to make them better. I plan to bring in additional resources to help expand the community here, as well as promote our third-party developers and plug-ins as a key value-add for our products. It would be great to hear what YOU see as how we can best implement that, as well. If you have any questions, feedback, gripes, or just want me to finish that match.com ad, let me know. Hi Jim! I hope you have thick skin, if you want feedback from us here.. ;-) OK, in no particular order: Personally I think the current implementation model (SlimServer) has a lot to commend it. However, the web based GUI needs an alternative interface that better hides it's HTML based nature. Slicker and more local app -like. It could then have a local app operating mode as well for those that despise the server model -just run the server locally and don't mention it! (Actually, that should probably be the default mode, and remote access, with identical GUI, being the icing on the cake.) In short: Talk less to customers about how it's done, and make GUI slicker.. I never use SqueezeNetwork, since I don't like the logging-off and logging-on procedure. Re-scan should be automatic and intelligent (using file date information). No two hour scans please! A history function would be superb so one could go back to previous songs/albums after listening to a few different things. (I know a playlist could emulate this, but it's so easy to just press Play and erase any list. After which you utter some unmentionables..) On the same theme: Favourites is a bit primitive. At least I haven't discovered any way to structure it.. I like the device-driver-talks-to-SB suggestions I've seen lately. Would make the SB universally accessible as an audio device. (Although SB display info would be limited.) Questions arise about control over the SB though.. (Must also be optional, since we don't want our direct-coupled SBs suddenly blowing our speakers with Windows boings.) Whatever you do, don't save pennies on the sound quality, or I (and I'm sure most here) might as well get a Roku or whatever.. (In fact, I'd still use my CD player.) Sean knows best! ;-D Can we have a Transporter Light without the knob and without balanced connectors for around $1000, please? (And _optional_ handles...) Rgds -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Jim, I've been following the product line since I returned my Squeezebox last year when it did not perform as advertised. A year later I am testing the latest Slimserver with Softsqueeze, just to see if the situation has improved. My friend, you have a major mess on your hands. I am not trolling and I would be glad to discuss the matter further, in vast technical detail. Sean and Dean need a permanent vacation. It is clear your company is understaffed and continues to push out products that are buggy. I've never seen a community with so many problems in my life. Briefly, if I had to summarize it all it would read: - multiply software development efforts by 4X, because slimserver is a complete mess - perfect and own softsqueeze-type player software One day may your team get this right. -- slimdemage slimdemage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3606 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
slimdemage;174265 Wrote: JimI am not trolling and I would be glad to discuss the matter further, in vast technical detail. oh no, that wasn't a troll at all. not one bit. good god has this thread turned to bile. -- bklaas the Nokia770 skin guy bklaas's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
JimC;167482 Wrote: Hi there. My name is Jim Carlton. I'm a Virgo. I like long walks on the beach, candlelit dinners, and dancing under the stars. Wait! That's my match.com ad copy. Actually, I'm the new Director of Product Marketing here at Slim -- now known as the SMS Business Unit at Logitech. Prior to accepting this role, I was the iPod/MP3 and wireless music business manager for Logitech in the America's region. And before that, I've had stints as one of the founders of Virgin Electronics, as a jack-of-lots-of-trades at Creative Labs, and further back than that just doesn't really matter. My first order of business here is to offload some of the work of integrating Slim with Logitech, so Sean and Dean can get back to sleeping once in a while. Overall, I'll be responsible for the customer-facing aspects of this business, and for helping shape how we tell the rest of the world about how great the products are... To that end, I would absolutely love to hear from the community about what you think is great about Slim Devices/Squeezebox/Transporter and about what we can do to make them better. I plan to bring in additional resources to help expand the community here, as well as promote our third-party developers and plug-ins as a key value-add for our products. It would be great to hear what YOU see as how we can best implement that, as well. If you have any questions, feedback, gripes, or just want me to finish that match.com ad, let me know. Welcome Jim! I think the SlimServer moto sums up what's great about the Squeezebox: free your music! It frees your music from the CD. And, to me, its not simply a more convenient way to listen to music. Thanks to the Squeezebox, I can now listen to music anyway I choose. I can listen to whole albums, the old fashioned way. Or I can listen to my favorite Nick Cave songs, or my favorite Beatles songs. I can listen to chillout songs, to some classical piano or whatever... And if I'm tired of my own music collection, I can listen to internet radio or Pandora. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: You do know that there are long-ass-virtual-cable products like the Airport Express or others from DLink and ... Logitech? If that is what you want, you can get one of those much cheaper than an SB. sure. the rca lyra can be had for $20 and uses any software you want with it, AND it has a rca universal remote that lets you control musicmatch and virtually any other hardware. BUT it is a tad inferior sonically, thus why i own a SB. snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: No one forced you to buy a Squeezebox. You can use whatever software you want. That it doesn't work is the problem of the software. OMG, I cant use WORD to play music! ridiculous. this ignores the whole point i made that SD only charges you for the hardware, NOT the software. their hardware should work with different kinds of software, not only a free, costly [to them], buggy product [ss] many people don't like. it doesn't benefit them in hardware sales, (ie. their revenue stream) to be so restricted. and btw, their product COULD do both. its not necessarily either / or. snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: Hint: you -can- use Winamp to play music. sure, but not easily on a SB, without running shoutcast, rewiring and so on... (unless i'm mistaken). snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: Most people, though, bought a squeezebox so that they could control it remotely and not sit at a computer. That remote control is what seperates the Squeezebox from something like Airport Express or the Dlink and Logitech products. i disagree, many of those products have a remote, and i'd say logitechs is probably superior. for me, the hardware quality sonically, and its ability to be tcp/ip'd and sync'd with other SBs, is what sets it apart. snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: No, what people are saying is that the software is Free, as in Libris, as in Liberty, not as in Free Beer: if you don't like the way the software works, then you can change it! Don't like the way J. River works? Tough. Don't like the way Itunes works? Tough. the problem is i can use winamp if i don't like itunes (which btw is true). i DON'T have that option here, as long as i want to continue using the fine SB hardware. snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: If you don't like the way Slimserver works: go download the code and change it. not a realistic reaction for a successful business model. snarlydwarf;174254 Wrote: No, I see that you have difficulties with words having more than one meaning. no bile from me, not sure if this is from you. i can debate civilly, if everyone else can. in any case, if you'd like to explain that, i'll see if i can get it thru my thick head. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174311 Wrote: ridiculous. this ignores the whole point i made that SD only charges you for the hardware, NOT the software. And Apple only charges you for an iPod but not for iTunes. So what? The license to Slimserver is GPL. It is also Gratis. If Slim Devices charged you $200 for it, would that make you think it is better? Or would you only feel better if they didn't let you have source code? Which version of free are you so pissed off about: 1) Free as in Liberty 2) Free as in Gratis You are upset that the software is free.. so which is it? How will charging for software or hiding the source code make things better? Personally, I would rather have software that costs less and gives me freedom... I don't know why you would object to either but whatever. their hardware should work with different kinds of software, not only a free, costly [to them], buggy product [ss] many people don't like. it doesn't benefit them in hardware sales, (ie. their revenue stream) to be so restricted. And iPods should work with different kinds of software, not only a free, costly [to them], buggy product many people don't like. it doesn't benefit them in hardware sales... ?? Do you see the illogic here yet? It is not the job of Apple, Slimdevices, Microsoft or anyone else to make their hardware work with the software of other companies If you want to use J.River to control a squeezebox: TALK TO J.River. If you want to use iTunes, talk to apple. Slim does not have the code to those products and can't change them. You, on the other hand, have the code to Slimserver: if you don't like it, change it. the problem is i can use winamp if i don't like itunes (which btw is true). i DON'T have that option here, as long as i want to continue using the fine SB hardware. You do, actually. Hint: Shoutcast plugin for Winamp. This makes Winamp play nice and talk to other hardware. Again, last I checked, the fine folks at AOL do not give out source code to Winamp... Why don't you ask them for source code? not a realistic reaction for a successful business model. I am sure Steve Jobs will be glad to hear that he should charge for software since expensive software is somehow better than gratis software, and that the iPod will never sell because it won't play nice with other people. Again: it is technically possible to make a virtual audio device on Windows serve out an HTTP stream, which is all that it would take to make the SB very annoying with mail beeps and bloops and all the other system sounds windows loves so much... At least with XP. With Vista? If Microsoft is keeping their word to content providers -- no, you will not be able to interecept the output of iTunes or WMP or anything else that plays DRM'd files doing so would be violating the DMCA. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
slimdemage;174265 Wrote: I've been following the product line since I returned my Squeezebox last year when it did not perform as advertised. And you've been whining about it ever since. Sean and Dean need a permanent vacation. This has got to be the lowest comment I've ever seen in this forum. Congratulations, you just lowered the bar. Guess who designed the Squeezebox and the Transporter in the first place? And guess who originated the market? This is like walking into a McDonalds, loudly proclaiming the food sucks, repeating it over and over again to everyone in the place, demanding that they make their food not suck so much, yet refusing to leave because you want a Big Mac and wish it didn't suck so much. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Hi Jim, Product suggestion: I'd love to see a new mid-market player from Slim Devices, positioned between the SqueezeBox and Transporter as described here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31935 Thanks for your consideration. -- USAudio SB3 - PS Audio Trio C-100 - Revel Concerta F12's USAudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8580 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
i apparently have to explain this in painstaking detail... snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: And Apple only charges you for an iPod but not for iTunes. So what? ipod will work with other software, NOT ONLY itunes. if it ONLY worked with itunes, it wouldn't be as popular as it is. thats so what. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: The license to Slimserver is GPL. It is also Gratis. If Slim Devices charged you $200 for it, would that make you think it is better? Or would you only feel better if they didn't let you have source code? you are totally missing the point, you completely misunderstand me. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: Which version of free are you so pissed off about: 1) Free as in Liberty 2) Free as in Gratis You are upset that the software is free.. so which is it? How will charging for software or hiding the source code make things better? Personally, I would rather have software that costs less and gives me freedom... I don't know why you would object to either but whatever. try reading everything i wrote again. i am NOT pissed about EITHER free, nothing you just wrote there above applies to me. here's what i meant, and if you want to lay the blame at my feet for not being clear enough the first time, so be it: SD makes NO MONEY or revenue out of developing SS. there is no revenue in it for them. i would also venture to guess that the costs ofdeveloping it far outweigh any partnerships they have with rhapsody and so on, if indeed those generate revenue at all. they MAINLY make their money out of selling the hardware. since that is the case, why FORCE us to use their free software? why not make the hardware able to be used by any audio app, like winamp or itunes or musicmatch or whatever? if they still wanted to develop and use SS they could, but it should not be the only way. what confuses me, is why they FORCE is to use this ONLY way, when they give it out for free and make no money from it, and incur headaches and costs from it. is this now clear? snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: And iPods should work with different kinds of software, not only a free, costly [to them], buggy product many people don't like. it doesn't benefit them in hardware sales... ?? Do you see the illogic here yet? It is not the job of Apple, Slimdevices, Microsoft or anyone else to make their hardware work with the software of other companies it is in the interest of ANY company whose main revenue stream is SELLING HARDWARE to have their product more compatible, then less compatible. SB is one of the only products out there that refuses to work with any other software. yes, its open source, its free, its cross platform. but that doesn't mean much to me if i don't like using it b/c it sucks in various ways. i think a lot more people, even non techie newbies, would get a lot out of a SB they could use as just another sound card on their computer, that allowed them to use ANY pgm they wished with it. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: If you want to use J.River to control a squeezebox: TALK TO J.River. If you want to use iTunes, talk to apple. Slim does not have the code to those products and can't change them. all i want is a device driver for the OS that powers the SB. i don't care if i can control it via remote or not. i hardly think my request is sacriledge. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: You, on the other hand, have the code to Slimserver: if you don't like it, change it. not realistic from a business model standpoint. by that logic, SD shouldn't develop it at all, merely maintain what others do. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: You do, actually. Hint: Shoutcast plugin for Winamp. This makes Winamp play nice and talk to other hardware. Again, last I checked, the fine folks at AOL do not give out source code to Winamp... Why don't you ask them for source code? what are you talking about? i already said that setting up shoutcast and analog cables in my soundcard to give me a workaround so i can feed my SB is not a solution i'm interested in, as it defeats the sonic purpose and is inelegant to say the least. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: I am sure Steve Jobs will be glad to hear that he should charge for software since expensive software is somehow better than gratis software, and that the iPod will never sell because it won't play nice with other people. straw man, not my argument. snarlydwarf;174317 Wrote: Again: it is technically possible to make a virtual audio device on Windows serve out an HTTP stream, which is all that it would take to make the SB very annoying with mail beeps and bloops and all the other system sounds windows loves so much... At least with XP. actually, windows allows you to run more than one sound device. you can route system sounds and so on, to one device, and all your music and so on, to another device, (presumably the one where your stereo is. i'm not sure what u mean by having the xp machine serve out the stream on
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: do you not see the financial insanity of that? Hey, it's s insane, they just sold the company for $20 million. Jeez, I wish I was that mad. R. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174327 Wrote: i apparently have to explain this in painstaking detail... ipod will work with other software, NOT ONLY itunes. if it ONLY worked with itunes, it wouldn't be as popular as it is. thats so what. you are totally missing the point, you completely misunderstand me. try reading everything i wrote again. i am NOT pissed about EITHER free, nothing you just wrote there above applies to me. here's what i meant, and if you want to lay the blame at my feet for not being clear enough the first time, so be it: SD makes NO MONEY or revenue out of developing SS. there is no revenue in it for them. i would also venture to guess that the costs ofdeveloping it far outweigh any partnerships they have with rhapsody and so on, if indeed those generate revenue at all. they MAINLY make their money out of selling the hardware. since that is the case, why FORCE us to use their free software? why not make the hardware able to be used by any audio app, like winamp or itunes or musicmatch or whatever? if they still wanted to develop and use SS they could, but it should not be the only way. what confuses me, is why they FORCE is to use this ONLY way, when they give it out for free and make no money from it, and incur headaches and costs from it. is this now clear? it is in the interest of ANY company whose main revenue stream is SELLING HARDWARE to have their product more compatible, then less compatible. SB is one of the only products out there that refuses to work with any other software. yes, its open source, its free, its cross platform. but that doesn't mean much to me if i don't like using it b/c it sucks in various ways. i think a lot more people, even non techie newbies, would get a lot out of a SB they could use as just another sound card on their computer, that allowed them to use ANY pgm they wished with it. all i want is a device driver for the OS that powers the SB. i don't care if i can control it via remote or not. i hardly think my request is sacriledge. not realistic from a business model standpoint. by that logic, SD shouldn't develop it at all, merely maintain what others do. what are you talking about? i already said that setting up shoutcast and analog cables in my soundcard to give me a workaround so i can feed my SB is not a solution i'm interested in, as it defeats the sonic purpose and is inelegant to say the least. straw man, not my argument. actually, windows allows you to run more than one sound device. you can route system sounds and so on, to one device, and all your music and so on, to another device, (presumably the one where your stereo is). i'm not sure what u mean by having the xp machine serve out the stream on a virtual audio device. are you saying that if i want to run winamp, i should also run shoutcast, have it encode whatever winamp is doing, (via line in i suppose) and serve it out re-encoded? that may work for winamp, but its not a good solution. in my case, DRM has nothing to do with anything i'm doing. i make my own mp3s and listen to mp3 streams. i don't think that this should preclude the development of a windows driver for SB, to replace SS as the only method of using a SB. Regardless of whether you have a point or not, all of your posts have been hopelessly OT on this thread. Rather than hijack a thread, start a new one. This thread was supposed to be for people introducing themselves, NOTHING ELSE. Really, seriously, start another thread. This is NOT the place. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: do you not see the financial insanity of that? Hey, it's s insane, they just sold the company for $20 million. Jeez, I wish I was that mad. R. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
totoro, who died and made you king? reread the first post: JimC;167482 Wrote: Hi there. To that end, I would absolutely love to hear from the community about what you think is great about Slim Devices/Squeezebox/Transporter and about what we can do to make them better. I plan to bring in additional resources to help expand the community here, as well as promote our third-party developers and plug-ins as a key value-add for our products. It would be great to hear what YOU see as how we can best implement that, as well. If you have any questions, feedback, gripes, or just want me to finish that match.com ad, let me know. as to the other post, yes, they got $20million. but the point is they could have gotten a lot more. from a business model perspective, what i said is true, 20mill or not. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Robin Bowes;174330 Wrote: MrSinatra wrote: do you not see the financial insanity of that? Hey, it's s insane, they just sold the company for $20 million. Jeez, I wish I was that mad. R. Don't feed the troll. This was supposed to be a happy thread. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174332 Wrote: totoro, who died and made you king? reread the first post: as to the other post, yes, they got $20million. but the point is they could have gotten a lot more. from a business model perspective, what i said is true, 20mill or not. I am embarrassed to admit, but I had confused this thread with another. My apologies. I screwed up. At the same time, I do think that there needs to be a place where people who are unhappy with the architecture can post, which will not be hopelessly intertwined with other discussions, to the detriment of complainants and parties to other discussions. Please consider posting to the general complaints thread I posted in the general forum, or consider creating your own thread. This should benefit everyone, I _think_ (of course, I could be proving what an idiot I am-- oh, well). regards, Michael -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra wrote: what confuses me, is why they FORCE is to use this ONLY way, when they give it out for free and make no money from it, and incur headaches and costs from it. Why do you keep saying they FORCE you to use slimserver? The slimproto is documented. If you don't like slimserver, and you can't modify it into something you do like, replace it with something else entirely. - Marc ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;174327 Wrote: i apparently have to explain this in painstaking detail... Well this is my last post. Feel free to rant and have the last word. ipod will work with other software, NOT ONLY itunes. Bull. The only reason it works at all with other software is because other vendors have reverse-engineered the structure of data on the disk. It is not simply using a USB_Storage driver. if it ONLY worked with itunes, it wouldn't be as popular as it is. thats so what. Again, Bull. I would venture over 98% of iPod owners only use iTunes to load software and playlists on their iPod. try reading everything i wrote again. i am NOT pissed about EITHER free, nothing you just wrote there above applies to me. Yes, you are: you keep blaming everything you dislike about Slimserver on the fact that it is (in caps, your style) FREE. Then you won't explain what your problem with it is other than that you hate MySQL ok... whatever. SD makes NO MONEY or revenue out of developing SS. there is no revenue in it for them. i would also venture to guess that the costs ofdeveloping it far outweigh any partnerships they have with rhapsody and so on, if indeed those generate revenue at all. they MAINLY make their money out of selling the hardware. Again, what differs there between Slim and ... um, Apple? Your logic sucks. since that is the case, why FORCE us to use their free software? why not make the hardware able to be used by any audio app, like winamp or itunes or musicmatch or whatever? And here is where you are flat out wrong: No One Is Forcing You To Use Slimserver. NO ONE. You could write: It sucks that even though SlimProto is documented and pretty damned simple to implement that no one else has bothered to write anything using it. That would be true. You could write Wow, Slimserver has a command line interface -and- and method of using HTTP commands, so people can write things like Moose.. I wish more people would write neat things like that, that would be cool. Nope, you blame Slim because no one has taken the publicly documented and simple-to-implememt protocols and done anything with them. Do you not understand why you are blaming the wrong people? Slim does not have source code to every other music player on the planet: they have, however, documented their API, and even have source code available so that you can study the API. If you really really hate the API, then you can write a pluging that -replaces- the CLI and does it all via whatever command set you want. if they still wanted to develop and use SS they could, but it should not be the only way. It is NOT the only way. If you want the Widgetmaster XYZ MusicJukebox to work with your squeezebox: Talk to the people at WidgetMaster. Explain to them that the protocols are open and documented. If they don't bite, then don't blame Slim... blame Widgetmaster. what confuses me, is why they FORCE is to use this ONLY way, when they give it out for free and make no money from it, and incur headaches and costs from it. No one is forcing you to do anything. in my case, DRM has nothing to do with anything i'm doing. i make my own mp3s and listen to mp3 streams. Then for christsakes.. Your music is in mp3 now. You like Winamp. Set up shoutcast. And... tell Slimserver to tune in to http://localhost:something/listen.pls... And guess what? You are using winamp! You can queue stuff up in winamp, you can play with it all day. You never have to scan a thing into Slimserver but can use Winamp for all your needs! i don't think that this should preclude the development of a windows driver for SB, to replace SS as the only method of using a SB. The DRM chain in Vista does. All sound drivers must be signed. I am sure that is somehow Slim's fault, too in your world. Analogy: You buy a brand new Porsche, but because this is a hypothetical world, in this magical world Porsche gives out complete schematics to their car. No, wait, not just schematics: the CAD documents they used on their production floor. They figured what the heck, if we go out of business we arent screwing our customers and they may be able to suggest tweaks to the cars for future revisions You then complain to them: Why are you giving away schematics, you should make this car take a Chevy engine, because I like my old '327... and you have no right to force me to use your engine! The Porsche engineers look at you confused: they say, If you want a different engine here are all the schematics and you can either change our engine around or figure out how to change the Chevy so it fits. But then you rant at them that if they charged more for the manuals instead of giving them for free, they would have the money to make it work with a Chevy engine. Get it yet? Well, that is a rhetorical. I don't care if you don't get it. You would rather argue and I have better things to do. -- snarlydwarf
RE: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
As a user/owner of SB's since version 1 (I have three), and a user/tester of a few other streaming products like the Roku, along with a few PVR's including MythTV, I have had a fair amount of experience with streaming audio and video throughout my house and trying to integrate numerous systems and of course, access all media (video and audio) simply and quickly from any location. I am somewhat of an audiophile with systems in all rooms, multiple home theatres and flat screens all over the place and have high expectations for sound. My point is that I am passionate about getting my audio and video systems working seamlessly and utilizing the best that open-source and Linux have to offer in these areas. Although the SB meets most of my expectations, my biggest complaints with the SB are: 1: Slimserver is a dinosaur and should start looking to Jinzora for interface ideas. 2: A small/embedded web server and video output on the SB would allow for a big screen interface to the SB. 3: Transporter could have dual, mirrored, quiet SATA drives, and embedded Linux for a for standalone device. -Original Message- From: Nostromo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:20 PM To: discuss@lists.slimdevices.com Subject: [slim] Re: Introducing. me! JimC;167482 Wrote: Hi there. My name is Jim Carlton. I'm a Virgo. I like long walks on the beach, candlelit dinners, and dancing under the stars. Wait! That's my match.com ad copy. Actually, I'm the new Director of Product Marketing here at Slim -- now known as the SMS Business Unit at Logitech. Prior to accepting this role, I was the iPod/MP3 and wireless music business manager for Logitech in the America's region. And before that, I've had stints as one of the founders of Virgin Electronics, as a jack-of-lots-of-trades at Creative Labs, and further back than that just doesn't really matter. My first order of business here is to offload some of the work of integrating Slim with Logitech, so Sean and Dean can get back to sleeping once in a while. Overall, I'll be responsible for the customer-facing aspects of this business, and for helping shape how we tell the rest of the world about how great the products are... To that end, I would absolutely love to hear from the community about what you think is great about Slim Devices/Squeezebox/Transporter and about what we can do to make them better. I plan to bring in additional resources to help expand the community here, as well as promote our third-party developers and plug-ins as a key value-add for our products. It would be great to hear what YOU see as how we can best implement that, as well If you have any questions, feedback, gripes, or just want me to finish that match.com ad, let me know. Welcome Jim! I think the SlimServer moto sums up what's great about the Squeezebox: free your music! It frees your music from the CD. And, to me, its not simply a more convenient way to listen to music. Thanks to the Squeezebox, I can now listen to music anyway I choose. I can listen to whole albums, the old fashioned way. Or I can listen to my favorite Nick Cave songs, or my favorite Beatles songs. I can listen to chillout songs, to some classical piano or whatever... And if I'm tired of my own music collection, I can listen to internet radio or Pandora. -- Nostromo -- -- Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Marc Sherman;174352 Wrote: MrSinatra wrote: what confuses me, is why they FORCE is to use this ONLY way, when they give it out for free and make no money from it, and incur headaches and costs from it. Why do you keep saying they FORCE you to use slimserver? The slimproto is documented. If you don't like slimserver, and you can't modify it into something you do like, replace it with something else entirely. - Marc i say force b/c SD offers no alternative to SS if you don't like SS, (but do like SB). again, i am not saying SS shouldn't exist... but given all its well documented flaws, problems, bugginess, bloatware characteristics, whouldn't it be nice for people who want to use other software to be able to do so? wouldn't the company that wants to sell the hardware to make their money want those people to be able to do so? would that not increase their potential market? turning around and telling me that if i want it, i have to become a programmer is illogical and frankly immature. i'm not going to do that. telling me i should just get something else entirely ought to send a red flag to logitech. but i'll bet you logitech eventually gets the memo, and SS will eventually not be the ONLY way, [ie forced way] to power a SB. why does my desire to have a device driver alternative drive some of you so crazy? it makes no sense. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
mrchrispy;173454 Wrote: Not much new for me to add, but wanted to be another voice in the chorus of people looking for a slick ui on the computer side. In an ideal world iTunes would be able to actually drive the squeezebox since millions of iPod users have made it the most widely accepted standard out there (itunes isn't perfect, but it's close for the vast majority of users). :) That would have happened only had Apple purchased SlimDevices. Of course, that would have probably meant no more open-source -- or if OS, a severely-crippled -- SlimServer... -- Balthazar_B Balthazar_B's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7366 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
mrchrispy;173454 Wrote: Related to the above point I'd like to see some way to initiate a limited rescan on specific items. For instance if I've just corrected a tag in some way I'd like to ask Slimserver to rescan that album rather than just generically telling it to look for new and changed music and waiting for it to finish. There's an easy way to do this. Just browse the Music Folder via the remote control or the web interface. Navigate to the location where the new or changed tracks are, and they will be added to the database. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
MrSinatra;173834 Wrote: actually, it can happen if only a virtual device driver is made to power SB so we don't have to use SS. then itunes, or any app, will power it fine. since its all open source, i'm surprised no driver writing geek has done one already... you would think someone would want to be able to use the hardware freely with any pgm, and not be tied down to SS. I did consider it last spring. At that time, the documentation of the streaming protocol wasn't up to date. Is it accurate now? Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
So the SB3 would appear as a sound device on the host computer? That would be great for me - I have my computer connected to the hi-fi for playing DVDs and TV through the projector, and would dearly love to remove a cable and improve the quality. I think this would transform acceptance of the SB3 by non-geeks. Install a driver, and whatever is playing on your computer plays on the SB3, with great quality sound -- sales potential increases by an order of magnitude. SD should contract you - a month's work and they can pay you in Transporters! Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
adamslim;173889 Wrote: So the SB3 would appear as a sound device on the host computer? That would be great for me - I have my computer connected to the hi-fi for playing DVDs and TV through the projector, and would dearly love to remove a cable and improve the quality. That would almost certainly be useless for DVD or TV, though. It would be virtually impossible to keep the audio and video synced. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
snarlydwarf;173897 Wrote: That would almost certainly be useless for DVD or TV, though. It would be virtually impossible to keep the audio and video synced. Drat! I remain slave to the cables!! -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
adamslim;173905 Wrote: Drat! I remain slave to the cables!! Long live the cables! -- shabbs [shabbs] *Rip/encode:* 'EAC' (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) 0.95b4 [secure] w/ 'Lame' (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html) v3.97 [-V 0] *Audio:* 'SB1' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) -- boombox; 'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) -- Technics SA-DX1040 -- JBL E30's *Storage:* 'Linksys NSLU2' (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2childpagename=US%2FLayoutcid=1118334819312pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper), 'WDG1U5000 500GB External USB Drive' (http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=232language=en) shabbs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6016 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Not much new for me to add, but wanted to be another voice in the chorus of people looking for a slick ui on the computer side. In an ideal world iTunes would be able to actually drive the squeezebox since millions of iPod users have made it the most widely accepted standard out there (itunes isn't perfect, but it's close for the vast majority of users). Related to the above point I'd like to see some way to initiate a limited rescan on specific items. For instance if I've just corrected a tag in some way I'd like to ask Slimserver to rescan that album rather than just generically telling it to look for new and changed music and waiting for it to finish. Would love to see Logitech also take on improving the Nokia 770 skin as a full time job - I've been watching that develop and it's nearly at a point where I'm considering picking up a Nokia 800 (or maybe a UMPC). That said, hats off to Ben for taking it as far as he has on a volunteer basis. -- mrchrispy mrchrispy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: On 1/8/07, MrSinatra MrSinatra.2k43hz1168293601 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com wrote: hi Jim, as you can see, SD forums are basically two camps, cheerleaders and cranks. I'd actually rename those camps to those who bought what they want and those who want something else but bought a Squeezebox anyway :) allow me to be more precise... how about 'those who are happy with it doing whatever the hell it wants to do,' and 'those who are unhappy it doesn't do what its advertised to do?' Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: i'm a crank. i guess my problem is that i know exactly what i want, and no one makes it. i have a SB2, and like most people, i think the web UI stinks. sorry, but thats my opinion cheerleaders, and i'm entitled to it. Aaargh!!! To the barricades me hearties, defeat this infidel Oh wait, I actually don't care at all. Sorry for the confusion. I don't think you can say most people without something to back it up. Here's a stab at a poll: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31443 -- I'd say that every vote for Option 2 or Option 4 is a vote you can count against the stock interfaces :) thats ridiculous. just because someone uses the stock interface, and doesn't seek out an alternative, does not, in ANY way constitute APPROVAL of it. you have engaged in whats known as a logical fallacy. your poll does not in any way guage if users LIKE what they use. it merely ASKS what they use. it doesn't ask if people like the option they use, or if they like ANY of the options they use. and your population here is skewed towards the SD enthusiats as well. try again. Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: my other concerns are that the SS software is very buggy, that the display is only on the device, not the remote, (a big problem for me and many others i'm sure) and that only SS software powers the device; it can't be used as an external soundcard, (and therefore you can't winamp it or itunes or dvd, or whatever...) Four issues conflated into one sentence... not conflated, listed. am i not to list them for fear you will conflate them? Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: 1) Slimserver is buggy, yes, and I'd personally like to see either more rapid releases, or a move to the perpetual beta idea of these Web 2.0 companies. Dump the release idea altogether and just put a link to the latest nightly up on the download page. how does going from buggy releases to buggy betas solve anything? how about putting out a release that is bug free, and adding features slowly over time so they are also bug free? Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: 2) Display on the remote is requested from time to time. Does nothing for me, but you go right ahead. thx jack, i will. and it seems logitech and many others think its a good idea, imagine that! Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: 3) Having alternate servers would be mildly interesting, except that it would require switching from SS or SN to whatever, and back. i'm happy to have mildly interested you. i wasn't really suggeting that tho, i was suggesting a mini SS that acted as a dsp plugin for WMP, so winamp could handle all the thing SS does so poorly. Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: 4) A VLW (very long wire) mode has the same problem, plus a requirement to disable the buffer (which means that wireless users will have even more problems than they do now). At the end of the day, either of these issues end up with a device that does exactly what far cheaper alternatives do (Airport Express for instance). Not saying that's a bad thing to add-on, just that I have no need for it. well, i have a need for it, and i think many other people could use it that way to wokaround their SS problems. it also adds the extra ability of acting as the audio interface to your stereo for DVDs, both video and audio. Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: it [ss] also in recent versions has developed a weakness in streaming internet stations b/c now the hardware does it alone. i like that paradigm, but the hardware needs to be as robust as software streaming solutions, (like winamp). some ISPs are flaky, SD products must recognize that. if winamp can do it, SD hardware better be able to do it too. I don't use enough Internet radio to comment, though I do think it's kind of specious to use Winamp running on a full computer as your standard to judge the SB by. well, that might be the case, IF SD didn't advertise the product as being capable of such actions on their website. i don't think anyone buying it gets a warning from the SD website that this solution is NOT to be as robust as just about ANY other one you have used, (winamp just being an example of one). the working standard is out there and established. if SD says it can do the function, it should meet the standard. Jack Coates;168371 Wrote: some of this has been gone over before, please see these links:
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
(1) A faster, slicker UI. This can be made cross platform using Java or any number of porting technologies out there. This is the biggest downside to the product, it is so clunky and unappealing. If there was a decent remote it wouldn't be so bad, which brings us on to... (2) A better remote - Sonos-like if possible, my eyes aren't what they were and squinting at the SB screen just doesn't work anymore! (3) A transporter without all the knobs and whistles. Cut out the displays, knobs and extraneous metalwork and put it in a simple well-built case. Supply it with a good remote with display and that would be a far preferable solution for me. Oh, and then you could bring the price down too. (4) The ability to rip CDs within the software package. There's nothing worse when telling people about SLim than when you have to explain the collection of software and settings that are required to get the library together. The more technical users may enjoy the challenge, many music lovers won't. I think we also need to leave our tech hats at home once in a while too. I have been working on consumer products for some time now and I think the dismissive attitudes that sometimes appear regarding iTunes and other consumer orientated products are very misplaced. I believe over 30 million iPods have shipped and many, many more copies of iTunes. There is something to learn there. It's also tempting to try to keep something you have found to a small community, like when you discover a new band, and the old ways are clung on to and anything remotely commercially orientated is rallied against. Let's not get bent too far out of shape when they want to change to make it big. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
maggior;168351 Wrote: Frist, I'd like to comment on the setup difficulties. The issues surrounding setup of the SB3 are much simpler than that of setting up a home network. If somebody is considering purchasing an SB3, they already have a home network set up, so they've already been through the worst of it. With things like DHCP, setup of the SB3 is a breeze! I chose to use a static IP to speed up power up, but that was my choice. I also had to enter my SSID since I have its broadcast disabled. These hurdles are no different than configuring a new laptop to communicate with the network. So, a new SB3 owner will either be familiar with what is required to set up a networked device since they already have a network, or know a geek to help them out (this geek would have set up the network to begin with). I know this from experience - I have set up 4 home networks including my own. (Personally, I found the setup to be a breeze.) Rich Maggio I think you are over-simplifying here. It's not that unlikely that someone starts networking precisely because they have decided on a Squeezebox. I know that's the only rason I have a network (though subsequently I have found other uses for it). So I had to go through the issues of creating a network at the same time as setting up the SB. Fortunately it turned out very easy, except for issues such as microwave interference. -- danco danco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=210 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
)p(;172862 Wrote: 3) A graphical remote. I would like to see a intelligent one that has a local copy of the database that is automatically synced with the slimserver database. I think apple tv does do it like that. An expensive graphical remote that is not very responsive is a big no no for me. peter A very interesting idea. It would likely take only a little bit of flash memory on the controller device (probably a better term than remote) to cache the SS DB, and would cut down considerably on the over-the-air transactions that would tend to make the control sluggish. The synching could be done on-demand or trickled as DB changes were being made on the backend. But the key element of a successful control device is not so much its processing power per se, but control interfaces that are optimized for media (in this regard, while the iPod is not perfect, it excels in its elegance and simplicity well beyond most of its competition). -- Balthazar_B Balthazar_B's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7366 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
JimC;167516 Wrote: I'm looking to understand the dynamic that makes your visitors say to themselves, Self, I want one of these and I want it now. I just got into these things. I read about the positive reviews in the audiophile forums. Then I looked for something that had a good control interface (computer) and this was it. I previously had a Phillips streaming device perform poorly on just connecting to the network and doing basic searches. If the wife has to wait three minutes to get her favorite tune, she will walk away. As well, perhaps Joe public does not appreciate this, but having all the folks supporting this product (open source)and the friendly atmosphere makes me confident that issues will be answered and resolved. To answer you question: Yah, i just picked up the remote after the install and played with it. I wanted to be able to get my favorite tracks up fast...that's about it. If you can find the music when you want it, that is all there is... It is like stepping to a CD rack and finding what you want. It has to be easy and it is. Rich -- raymay raymay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9681 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Balthazar_B;172963 Wrote: A very interesting idea. It would likely take only a little bit of flash memory on the controller device (probably a better term than remote) to cache the SS DB, and would cut down considerably on the over-the-air transactions that would tend to make the control sluggish. The synching could be done on-demand or trickled as DB changes were being made on the backend. But the key element of a successful control device is not so much its processing power per se, but control interfaces that are optimized for media (in this regard, while the iPod is not perfect, it excels in its elegance and simplicity well beyond most of its competition). a cheaper and better way to do the remote, is to make it an independent device, that uses wireless networking. in other words, it has its own tcp/ip addy, and can be used anywhere in the house via the same wireless network that powers all your other wireless gear. put a 1gig micro card in it and u could have a nice display that shows artwork or whatever else... let it communicate with the server and DB, don't put the DB in the device. the remote could even have a headphone jack. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Improvements I'd like revolve around: 1) I managed to get Slimserver running fine, but I'm a techie. I agree with others who ask for a more automated method for installation. Test it on someone who just about knows what an mp3 file is and see how they get on. Many problems resolved around plugins, and non-recovery from crashes. Ways to make Slimserver restart itself automatically after a crashshould be offered in the interface, or on installation. That would prevent much anguished running up and dopwn stairs to restart it. 2) A plugin manager. I've had many experiences of Slimserver crashing, and ages trying to make plugins work. A plugin manager that allows you to install plugins from a list if they're compatible with yoru Slimserver version, and lets you know which installed plugins are not compatible would be good. 3)An off switch on the Squeezebox. When I'm not listening to it (at least 90% of the time) I want it turned off consuming zero watts of power. I do not want it on with a screensaver, or even on with a blank screen. Homeplug/powerline often works much more easily than wireless - I'd suggest making more of that as a fix for people with wireless problems. A homeplug squeezebox? I guess that's asking too much! -- mecouc mecouc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=227 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
EnochLight;167589 Wrote: Hi Jim! I picked up my Squeezebox about a year ago and haven't looked back, but I must agree - the need for a Harmony-type remote with native Slimserver support, along with some sort of 2-way communication is absolutely key to Squeezebox's expansion and success. The biggest complaint I have is the anemic remote that comes with the Squeezebox and the need for me to have a computer running just to access a GUI-type interface. That's one area where the Sonos wins hands down. Cheers! Agree, agree, agree!!! I'm one of those people who stuff their A/V gear into a closet and (today) runs everything from an RF-equipped remote. Actually, my wife prefers it that way, and come to think of it, I do too. Now it's certainly within Logitech's power to market a WiFi remote with a UI and navigation controls optimized for accessing and managing large, complex music (or media) libraries. Even an Ajax web interface isn't enough (if Apple had relied on that running its iPod devices, it would have failed miserably). For me, a simple (think iPod, Zen, Sansa, etc. -- and a small screen is essential) portable remote control that lets me queue up music, playlists, change from stored to Internet radio, etc., would be a profoundly great thing. My $.02. -- Balthazar_B Balthazar_B's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7366 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
Gary_W;167799 Wrote: This means I have 500 odd albums ripped as MP3 and another 150 or so ripped as FLAC. All the FLACs have MP3 duplicates so I can listen to them on the iPod. I want Slimserver to ONLY play the best quality of song it can, so if there is a FLAC version I don't want it to bother with the MP3. At the moment, it causes a terrible amount of faffing around that I still haven't really got to grips with. The web interface isn't so good. Gary Echo the above point. I don't have an iPod but do have lots of MP3's. Since getting the Transporter I have re-ripped all CD's to FLAC (about 7000 files or so). So I have MP3s and FLACs of the same CD. I also have a lot of MP3s with no corresponding FLAC. If I could mix in same library but have Slimserver automatically select the FLAC when there is a choice, that would be great. Yes, I've tried Duplicate MP3 Finder that allows duplicate MP3s and FLACs to be found, but as Gary mentions, gets you into the faffing around zone. A put-off for folks that don't like 'faffing around' with databases etc.. The web interface is too geeky. Ok for me, but not for my wife (who also likes music). Also my computer is in another room, so selecting there when sound system is elsewhere is a pain. This should be an easy fix/addon I would have thought would improve the marketability no end. Maybe been mentioned before, but would be nice to have a headphone version. ie minaturised battery powered SB3 embedded in a headphone. Dan -- chinablues chinablues's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7955 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
hi Jim, as you can see, SD forums are basically two camps, cheerleaders and cranks. i'm a crank. i guess my problem is that i know exactly what i want, and no one makes it. i have a SB2, and like most people, i think the web UI stinks. sorry, but thats my opinion cheerleaders, and i'm entitled to it. my other concerns are that the SS software is very buggy, that the display is only on the device, not the remote, (a big problem for me and many others i'm sure) and that only SS software powers the device; it can't be used as an external soundcard, (and therefore you can't winamp it or itunes or dvd, or whatever...) it [ss] also in recent versions has developed a weakness in streaming internet stations b/c now the hardware does it alone. i like that paradigm, but the hardware needs to be as robust as software streaming solutions, (like winamp). some ISPs are flaky, SD products must recognize that. if winamp can do it, SD hardware better be able to do it too. some of this has been gone over before, please see these links: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28821 (interestingly, its the cheerleaders who are the most paranoid about logitech, whereas i'm not at all) http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=29153 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28676 in any case, there's lots to love about SD, i'm not all negative. it is what i've used and i have tried to give feedback to fix problems with it. i am a believer in open source and i like that people can hack it and so on... i hope the next product will combine the best of SD, with the best of the logitech product i talked about in an above link. -- MrSinatra www.LION-Radio.org Using: Squeezebox2 w/SS 6.5.1 (beta!?) - Win XP Pro SP2 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
This is a very interesting thread. Jim - glad to see your request for input from the community. For a frame of reference, I am computer and home networking savvy and though not an audiophile, I have pretty high standards regarding audio. I have a large collection of music (2,000+ CDs) that was aquired myself, not via downloads from the Internet. I purchased my first SB just 2 weeks ago, though I've been following the product for the last year by reading the forums and playing around with slimserver and softsqueeze. A common theme in many of the responses was the usability issues regarding setup and usage via the web interface. Frist, I'd like to comment on the setup difficulties. The issues surrounding setup of the SB3 are much simpler than that of setting up a home network. If somebody is considering purchasing an SB3, they already have a home network set up, so they've already been through the worst of it. With things like DHCP, setup of the SB3 is a breeze! I chose to use a static IP to speed up power up, but that was my choice. I also had to enter my SSID since I have its broadcast disabled. These hurdles are no different than configuring a new laptop to communicate with the network. So, a new SB3 owner will either be familiar with what is required to set up a networked device since they already have a network, or know a geek to help them out (this geek would have set up the network to begin with). I know this from experience - I have set up 4 home networks including my own. (Personally, I found the setup to be a breeze.) The point is that anybody even thinking about purchasing an SB3 will have no problem setting it up or know somebody who does. Secondly, there is the entire issue of ripping and encoding music. This is a hurdle even for the iPod crowd, unless music is purchased via iTunes. Maybe that's what most people do, not sure. The point is that the technical difficulties in this area are shared with any other media product, such as iPod (which is so highly praised for usability). The difference though is that iTunes provides a means to rip and encode whereas SlimServer does not. It would be useful to provide this capability. And just like with iTunes, if you already have your favorite set of tools you use, you may choose to continue to use them. Thirdly, many have commented on the web interface for the server. It took me some getting used to, but it is very servicable. Since this is only used on the back end, I don't think its look-and-feel is as critical as on the client. An OS specific application to configure slimserver would be useful, but the web functionality and interface should be maintained as it is flexible - I can access it even from work! So, what do I love about my SB3? I own an iPod. I have docks for it. I have listened to it connected to my stereo and was content, except I had to get up to navigate my music library. SS3 allows me to navigate my ENTIRE music library (including what doesn't fit onto my iPod) from my chair. That's killer! Something I didn't expect is that the SB3 sounds quite noticibly better than my iPod in its dock. That was a great bonus! I had stayed away from iPod because it did not support gapless playback. I was stuck with Sony ATRAC on an HD3. When Apple introduced gapless playback of LAME mp3s in Sept, I jumped in and bought the new 80GB model. This is a key feature for me - if SB3 didn't support it, I wouldn't own one. You guys listen to your customers and bring the features that they want. You guys reacted much more quickly to this than Apple did. FLAC is supported natively on the client - another huge plus. And the open server and plugin architecture is great. I have last.fm and weather forcasts thanks to 3rd party developers in the community. Internet radio access is great too. I like that I can tune in virtually any URL I want. And being able to interact with Pandora and Last.fm via the remote is killer! The XM radio went out the window thanks to those features! My only complaint so far is the price. I wish it was just a little bit cheaper. Though I do understand that quality like this comes at a cost. Over time I'm sure there is at least one more SB3 in my future. I also wish I could go into Circuit City or Best Buy to purchase. Now that you are part of Logitech, perhaps larger distribution is in the future. Rich Maggio -- maggior maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
On 1/8/07, MrSinatra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi Jim, as you can see, SD forums are basically two camps, cheerleaders and cranks. I'd actually rename those camps to those who bought what they want and those who want something else but bought a Squeezebox anyway :) i'm a crank. i guess my problem is that i know exactly what i want, and no one makes it. i have a SB2, and like most people, i think the web UI stinks. sorry, but thats my opinion cheerleaders, and i'm entitled to it. Aaargh!!! To the barricades me hearties, defeat this infidel Oh wait, I actually don't care at all. Sorry for the confusion. I don't think you can say most people without something to back it up. Here's a stab at a poll: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31443 -- I'd say that every vote for Option 2 or Option 4 is a vote you can count against the stock interfaces :) my other concerns are that the SS software is very buggy, that the display is only on the device, not the remote, (a big problem for me and many others i'm sure) and that only SS software powers the device; it can't be used as an external soundcard, (and therefore you can't winamp it or itunes or dvd, or whatever...) Four issues conflated into one sentence... 1) Slimserver is buggy, yes, and I'd personally like to see either more rapid releases, or a move to the perpetual beta idea of these Web 2.0 companies. Dump the release idea altogether and just put a link to the latest nightly up on the download page. 2) Display on the remote is requested from time to time. Does nothing for me, but you go right ahead. 3) Having alternate servers would be mildly interesting, except that it would require switching from SS or SN to whatever, and back. 4) A VLW (very long wire) mode has the same problem, plus a requirement to disable the buffer (which means that wireless users will have even more problems than they do now). At the end of the day, either of these issues end up with a device that does exactly what far cheaper alternatives do (Airport Express for instance). Not saying that's a bad thing to add-on, just that I have no need for it. it [ss] also in recent versions has developed a weakness in streaming internet stations b/c now the hardware does it alone. i like that paradigm, but the hardware needs to be as robust as software streaming solutions, (like winamp). some ISPs are flaky, SD products must recognize that. if winamp can do it, SD hardware better be able to do it too. I don't use enough Internet radio to comment, though I do think it's kind of specious to use Winamp running on a full computer as your standard to judge the SB by. some of this has been gone over before, please see these links: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28821 (interestingly, its the cheerleaders who are the most paranoid about logitech, whereas i'm not at all) huh? I must have missed the score card, and the team rosters too :) I'm pretty happy with the Squeezebox/Slimserver system as it stands, but I'm in favor of the Logitech acquisition, but I like to mock the people who scream that the sky is falling because their favorite feature isn't present, so which team am I on? -- I spent all me tin with the ladies drinking gin, So across the Western ocean I must wander -- traditional ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
From my perspective, the strengths of the Squeezebox (I own two and use Softsqueeze as a third station) are: 1. Very high sound quality. 2. Superb remote interface. 3. Easy synchronization between players. 4. Unobtrusive and silent. 5. The open source, free server software. 6. Softsqueeze. Both a useful player and a great sales tool. Weaknesses: 1. Difficult setup for non-geeks; I can't even -imagine- turning my mother loose with a Squeezebox without help. 2. Frequently unstable software. I appreciate that the dev team works so hard, but they just don't have the resources they need for proper testing. (and aren't long on the charisma necessary to recruit new testers... at one point, I was kind of trying to volunteer as a tester, and got chased off.) 3. The website says 'use the the stable build, the nightlies are dangerous', when in actual fact, that's exactly backwards. The devs think that 'stable' means 'code that isn't changing' -- whether or not it actually works. They left up a completely broken release for about two weeks. When I complained, I was told it was 'stable' code, and thus shouldn't be changed. It didn't work -- it couldn't work -- but it was 'stable', so they didn't fix it for ages. Anyone downloading the software in that window (I think this was the first release of 6.3.0) simply would not have a working server. From my perspective, that's a customer relations disaster. If it's broken and you can't fix it immediately, pull it and put the old one up. Most folks think of 'stable' code as an implied promise that the program will work. Knowingly putting them through pain and frustration is extremely bad customer service. Overall, in my experience, the nightly builds of the stable branch are far more likely to run well than the official point releases. Solicit other opinions, but I believe the website should reflect that. 4. Perl. The existing server is written in Perl, and it's slow. It's fine on a big machine -- I run it on a dual core Linux server, and it's very quick -- but it's sluggish on small boxes. That means you can't easily put out an NSLU3 with the server built right in. (The NSLU2 does run SlimServer, but it's very slow. 6.5 may be better, but 6.2.X was glacial.) That said, however, there is a huge pile of work in that code, and it's not something that should lightly be abandoned. The CUE/FLAC logic was particularly hard to work out, judging from the number of odd little buglets I've seen over the years. I don't know what the solution is there...a rewrite in something faster may be the only solution, but I think that would be a path involving much pain. Whatever the choice is, make SURE that it's still open source or it won't be widely accepted. Things that sell Squeezeboxes: 1. High quality sound 2. The try-before-you-buy combo of Slimserver and Softsqueeze. The system is complex, but because it's all a free download with a solid emulator, people can find out if they like it or not before they spend a cent. Strong sales tool. 3. The great display 4. Slim's excellent customer support. Overall impressions: The Squeezebox hardware is incredibly good in the price range. In all honesty, I think it's the awesome hardware that sells the Squeezebox more than any other single factor. It's really, really good. (As an aside, I'd like to see a new form factor that fits into an audio stack better. The Transporter is very good there, but a mite expensive.) The software's acceptable, but it's not in the same league as the hardware. It needs interface work and more testing for sure. A total rewrite in a faster language might also be a good idea. And more focus on the customer experience would be good. Leaving broken software up for download isn't the best idea I've seen. I'd also like to see the ability to do ANYTHING with the web control that you can do with the remote. Having to dig out the remote for the 'sleep' and firmware update functions is kind of a pain. The suggestions for a turnkey solution have been very good. If you could get the software running fast enough, a modified NSLU2 with a USB CD and hard drive might fit very well... small, silent, and inexpensive. Alternately, good front-end software on the PC would also be fine, and you could save on the CD drive. I think the box is already running Rendezvous, so it should be trivial for software on a PC to find it. It should easily be able to rip, compress, tag, and load music onto the server. This should literally be a one-click process... put CD in, click Rip. Everything else is just handled. (and handled WELL. That's really important. ) The existing hardware is a great foundation. You can go in a lot of directions from here. You've already got the geek crowd. Now's the time to polish it up and go after their friends and relatives. :) -- Malor Malor's Profile:
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
morberg;167788 Wrote: You made some excellent points in your post, but missed one that made the choice easier for me: 802.11g rather than 11b. You got a point there as well... but: 11b devices may slow down a 11g network a tiny bit, but who many normal consumers know or care? 11b is sufficient enough even for uncompressed data I guess (will use not even 2 of the 11 available MBit/s). So it's more or less again just a point for a quite small group of users. Dave Dewey;167803 Wrote: But how many of those people are serious music listeners? In my opinion, the Squeezebox is not a product for people that are content listening to FM radio in their cars or are content with the storage capacity of their Nano. In my opinion, Logitech is a name that stands for quality products, but also for making affordable quality products for the masses. Selling more units means more turnover means more return. It also means less production costs which means even more return. On the other hand, making things easier to set up for the masses wouldn't even raise the per-unit production costs. Might be nice to feel like an elite who knows how to handle the setup, but won't pay Logitechs employees and shareholders - and, no doubt about that: they're in for profit (like any commercial operation, nothing bad about that), not for pleasing a few elite audiophiles, who wouldn't even lose their quality, just their elite I-know-how-to-setup-these-things felling ;) Most people in my experience that are serious enough music fans to accumulate large collections are technologically savvy enough to deal with a Squeezebox. That may be true of the people who found their way here - but lets be honest, most people with really huge music collections in general are not these audiophiles, but people who know how to use P2P. Malor;167860 Wrote: 6. Softsqueeze. Both a useful player and a great sales tool. Compare it to the competition - Firefly and iTunes as a PC client - and it's just an awkward player. Granted it's really nice to test the feeling of using the unit beforehand. But then, it gives users the chance to try to setup the software beforehand. Might be fair, but may spoil a few sales because people who thought they would be able to set up things and be content with it may actually experience they aren't. -- CCRDude CCRDude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8478 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: Introducing..... me!
I think you've got 2 main groups of customers here. The first, and probably largest, are geeks who love music. They already have a network and a large collection of music files. They rarely have trouble setting up the Squeezebox and are willing to tinker with settings, plugins, nightly builds, and even raw code. They love the Squeezebox as a music playback device, but also as a geek toy. The second group are primarily music lovers and audiophiles. They see the Squeezebox as a wonderful way to organize and playback a massive audio collection. They are extremely interested in sound quality. As a group they have a widely variable skill level as far as computers and networking; for some setting up EAC and FLAC will be the most difficult computer task they've ever attempted. But many audiophiles have a tinkerer's mentality and can usually get up to speed after absorbing the new concepts required. Notice the conspicuous absence of Joe Blow in this picture? Joe probably isn't aware of the music server concept. He knows about iPods and might even know someone who has one - but he probably doesn't have one himself. Forget about this guy. He probably doesn't have a DVD player either, preferring to watch old Monster Truck rallies on VHS. The greatest potential for expanding the Squeezebox market is from the iPod crowd. They have computers and they get it that music is just bits and it's cool to carry around your whole collection. The problem, for Slim Devices, is that this group is being served by the many audio systems that now feature an iPod dock. That makes it easy to pop your iPod into your home or portable stereo, and for many people, that will be all they'll ever need or want. The iPod is their home music server. Slim Devices is a viable solution for people who have in some way outgrown their iPods. Either they have a lot more music than even the largest iPod will hold, or they realize that lossy files don't sound very good on a decent home stereo. At this point, the customer begins to resemble one or both of your core customers - the geek or the audiophile. The idea of dedicated slimserver hardware is an intriguing one. A small, silent PC with enough horsepower to speedily run Slimserver and some kind of expandable storage would be a good start. But how pain-free could you make it? You're probably talking about a specialized version of Linux optimized to run Slimserver. But what about ripping and tagging? What about network shares? How do you update the server software and plugins? Solving these problems might go a long way toward offering a music server platform for everyman - but you'd also be in many ways limiting the flexibility that Slimserver currently offers. And you'd be opening whole new realms of customer support headaches. I will throw in a few feature requests for a next-generation Squeezebox (SB4): Full-width component with full-width display. I'm not talking about the 2 displays ala Transporter, but a single display that is double the width. This is the killer feature that will sell a lot of SB4s to current SB owners (though it might tick off current Transporter owners). A better DAC. The DAC in the SB3 is good, and the one in the Transporter is supposedly excellent. I'm not saying the Transporter DAC should go into the SB4 - that might bump the price too high - but with each hardware generation an effort should be made to find the best-sounding DAC in the price range. A linear power supply. There would be room inside a full-sized component for a larger and better power supply than the external switching supply of the SB3. Basically, I'm asking for SB4 to be Transporter Lite - an evolutionary step forward taking some of the Transporter features and putting them in a more reasonably-priced component. Say $500 or $600 tops. Of course if some of these advances could be incorporated in a $300 device, that's great, too. I'd like to see some kind of SD hardware remain reasonably-priced, even if that means continuing to sell the current SB3 along with a better, more expensive SB4. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31324 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
