subject:"Re\: \[slim\] I don't want to pay for trackstat \!"

Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation of 
Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's demanding the 
licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective charging, in that it 
disables an existing service and then demands payment without notice, and would 
therefore appear to be illegal under EU law.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 08:07, reniera wrote:

 
 GeeJay;664374 Wrote: 
 My plugins worked fine until I upgraded, several weeks after he
 introduced License Manager and the new versions of his plug-ins. It was
 clear to me that if I upgraded I would have to pay the fee, but as long
 as I didn't I could still use the older version. 
 
 I've been sending annual donations to Erland for awhile now, at an
 amount that is consistent with what he's charging. I obviously believe
 it's worth the price.
 
 Plugins got upgraded I guess because my setup is 'upgrade plugins
 automatically'. Erland would have been better inspired to create a new
 set of commercial plugins so there is no automatic update from the free
 ones. Also, given all the issues after the 7.6 migration, I have done
 more upgrades than usualy to correct i.e. issues between trackstat and
 7.6!
 
 Perhaps your positive appreciation of the Erland plugins come that you
 are on squeeezebox from ealier versions. I started with 7.6 (on a plug)
 one year ago and I can tell you that I have had many problems with 7.6
 (beta) and those plugins. My experience is therefore different as I
 have had only very short period of stability. It's only now, a couple
 of weeks after 7.6.2 that I can enjoy a stable system and it suddenly
 becomes commercial.
 
 
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread flattermann


cunobelinus;664435 Wrote: 
 Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
 of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
 demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
 charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
 payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
 EU law.
 

Have you maybe activated automatic plugin updates on the SBS?

BTW: Remember, Erland's plugins are open source!
You can grab every Revision of his plugins from the SVN repository at
http://code.google.com/p/erlandplugins/source/browse/MultiLibrary/


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Christian

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Michael Herger

 Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation  
 of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
 demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
 charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
 payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under  
 EU law.

You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he  
now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

-- 

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !



On 20 Oct 2011, at 12:38, Michael Herger wrote:

 Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation  
 of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
 demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
 charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
 payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under  
 EU law.
 
 You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he  
 now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
 
 Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
 
 -- 
 
 Michael

OK, if you like.

I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but within the 
law. Retrospective charging is not.

I wouldn't dream of telling someone I was making a gift of something - anything 
- and then enforcing payment for it after my gift had been accepted.

This have a beer argument is spurious and utterly disingenuous. Fancy a 
pint? OK Here it is. That's 20 Euros, please. Pathetic, Michael, truly 
pathetic.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


mherger;664438 Wrote: 
  Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing
 installation  
  of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
  demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
  charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
  payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal
 under  
  EU law.
 
 You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
 
 now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
 
 Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
 
 -- 
 
 Michael

Agree here, Erland has put a massive effort in supporting and
developing the playlists, just be thankful you got years of free usage
and free support, if you want to continue then pay up or if not don't

If the price is too much then how about paying for a year at a lower
cost and then saving up over the year for the lifetime cost

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread garym


mherger;664438 Wrote: 
  Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing
 installation  
  of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
  demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
  charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
  payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal
 under  
  EU law.
 
 You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
 
 now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
 
 Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
 
 -- 
 
 Michael

agree. unfortunately, my prediction on the end result of all this legal
discussion is that Erland will say, ok, everything is free, but I've
stopped development and when they quit working with upgrades, you're on
your own

p.s. I believe the old versions DO WORK if one doesn't upgrade so I
think Erland is fine under EU law.


-- 
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System 1: Vortexbox Appliance 6TB (1.10)  SbS 7.6.2  Transporter,
Touch, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
System 2: Win7(64) laptop  SbS 7.6.2  TouchBenchmark DAC I, Boom,
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


cunobelinus;664441 Wrote: 
 On 20 Oct 2011, at 12:38, Michael Herger wrote:
 
  Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing
 installation  
  of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
  demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
  charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
  payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal
 under  
  EU law.
  
  You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years
 he  
  now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
  
  Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
  
  -- 
  
  Michael
 
 OK, if you like.
 
 I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but
 within the law. Retrospective charging is not.
 
 I wouldn't dream of telling someone I was making a gift of something -
 anything - and then enforcing payment for it after my gift had been
 accepted.
 
 This have a beer argument is spurious and utterly disingenuous.
 Fancy a pint? OK Here it is. That's 20 Euros, please. Pathetic,
 Michael, truly pathetic.

Pay it or don't, sometimes life brings up some tough luck, and in the
grand scheme of things this is pretty small fryIMO

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Michael Herger

 I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but  
 within the law. Retrospective charging is not.

Sure. Sue him.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Soulkeeper


Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read
this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter.
Oh well. I guess I can do without.

It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
(or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach. 

After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too
many developers fail to realize that.


-- 
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-that is not dead which can eternal lie. and with strange aeons even
death may die.-
touch (sans caps) + duet + boom + radio (portable) / dd-wrt @ linksys
wrt54g/160n/320n/e2k/e3k + homeplugs c. / sbs 7.6.x on w7(x86) w/avira
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


Soulkeeper;664454 Wrote: 
 Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read
 this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter.
 Oh well. I guess I can do without.
 
 It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
 originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
 (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
 effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach. 
 
 After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too
 many developers fail to realize that.

I doubt marketing came into any initial plans, it was probably born
from a technical interest in improving squeezeboxserver, then as the
years have gone by the overhead of running the plugins has increased -
at that point I think for Erland it was a stop the plugins or get some
financial compensation


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread bluegaspode


cunobelinus;664441 Wrote: 
 
 I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but
 within the law. Retrospective charging is not.
 

He could have renamed all the new versions of his plugins to 7.6
edition.  Then you'd have been in the same situation. 

All plugins for free (and to be installed manually) but only tested and
working well with the 7.5er version of Logitechs server. All plugins for
money if one wants them to work with the new 7.6 version.

I'd be interested of a quote of this law myself by the way. Can anyone
post a link?

As a user of only the albumflow and screenswitcher applet I think the
pricing of 40$ would be a little bit to high for me as well. But
thinking a bit more: recently I used Multilibrary (which in turn
requires Custom-Browse) to seperate the albums of my kids from the main
library. And 50$ for all four still hurt a bit (when one is being used
to get full-blown iPad games for 5$) but then again still feels
reasonable given the time erland had to spend to create all this (and
given that those iPad Games are nice for a week or two ... and erlands
plugins will serve me many more years).

So yeah - pricing might look a bit high on first sight - but when you
compare to normal pricing of software outside the AppStore world, it
looks quite normal (gosh - even WinZip is 50$).


-- 
bluegaspode

Did you know: *'SqueezePlayer' (www.squeezeplayer.com)* will stream all
your music to your Android device. Take your music everywhere!
Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? *'Squeezebox + iPad =
SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)*
Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? = why
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread pippin


There's one thing I don't understand here:
If it's really as unimportant a feature to you as some claim here, then
why is it worth to make such a fuss around it?

I _know_ how much work it is not just to develop something for the
Squeezebox environment, but more importantly, just to MAINTAIN it. You
have to work on it almost every day, not to add new functionality but
just to keep it running and to help people make it work for them.

Yes, TrackStat of half a year ago will probably no longer work today.
If you use Squeezebox Server of today, that is.
The reason for this is actual WORK that has to go into it to keep it
running.

Erland has been outspoken here for YEARS now, that he needs help
because it's otherwise beyond what he can stem to support his plugins.
As far as I can see without getting any help.

All of his plugins are under GPL. If you are unhappy about his pricing:
just take the code, do the maintenance yourself and distribute them for
free, if you really believe that's  more fair. If you've read his
licensing page you should know that because he writes it there
himself.

I've seen how much Erland has contributed to the Squeezebox community
and he's one of those people who I believe belong into the category of
without him, the Squeezebox would already no longer be here. And I'm
serious about that. Because he helped to make it the system of choice
for a lot of people who now are buying Squeezeboxen and making Logitech
continue the product.

Ans as opposed to others like myself, he never got rewarded for it so
far. How many people donated in the past.
Is his pricing fair? I don't know. Everybody has to decide for him or
herself how much a feature is worth for them, there is no such thing as
a fair or unfair price as long as you have the choice, if this stuff
is so unimportant to you, why not just uninstall it?


-- 
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---
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*New: iPeng for iPad*, at penguinlovesmusic.com

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread reniera


mherger;664438 Wrote: 
  Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing
 installation  
  of Multi-Library, which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's  
  demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective  
  charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands  
  payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal
 under  
  EU law.
 
 You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
 
 now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
 
 Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
 
 -- 
 
 Michael

Michael, are you from Logitech ?  If you are not, fine, I respect your
opinion and don't read further. If you are, I can tell you that you
have no idea what such statement can create in term of bad feeling
about a company and products that were once so desired. You seriously
meant that we have to pay for fixing your product ?
Realy, if you are from Logitech, you better be back to dev. work and
add this basic code in 7.6.3 and close the discussion.


-- 
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


On 20 Oct 2011, at 13:21, Soulkeeper wrote:

 
 Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read
 this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter.
 Oh well. I guess I can do without.

I've never previously attempted to use Multi Library, despite downloading it 
some months ago. I tried to do so this time only as an experiment for this 
thread. I can certainly do without it. That's not the point.
 
 It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
 originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
 (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
 effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.

And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the thrill of 
putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to shout sue him; or is 
happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving in a way that the legislative 
bodies of the EU and its constituent states - representative of how many 
million people? - have agreed is so shabby and dishonest that it should not be 
allowed.

Well, a couple of days ago, I might well have paid for future updates for this 
- despite not using it - and maybe for those of a couple more of his plug ins 
that I've got on the system but never or very rarely used. I'd have been happy 
to do so for future updates, too, if I used them and had been given a choice.  
But I'm certainly not paying for them now.
 
 After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too
 many developers fail to realize that.

Too many developers can't even spell it (let alone psychology).
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


reniera;664470 Wrote: 
 Michael, are you from Logitech ?  If you are not, fine, I respect your
 opinion and don't read further. If you are, I can tell you that you
 have no idea what such statement can create in term of bad feeling
 about a company and products that were once so desired. You seriously
 meant that we have to pay for fixing your product ?
 Realy, if you are from Logitech, you better be back to dev. work and
 add this basic code in 7.6.3 and close the discussion.

wrong - its not fixing the product, squeezebox is open source so anyone
can develop a plugin of which there are a wide variety, its enhancing
the base server software not fixing it.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Michael Herger

 You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
 now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

 Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

 Michael, are you from Logitech ?  If you are not, fine, I respect your
 opinion and don't read further.

Even though I'm a Logitech employee I may have my own opinion, right?

Ok, I take some of my words back. Don't sue him.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


cunobelinus;664473 Wrote: 
 On 20 Oct 2011, at 13:21, Soulkeeper wrote:
 
  
  Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't
 read
  this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by
 letter.
  Oh well. I guess I can do without.
 
 I've never previously attempted to use Multi Library, despite
 downloading it some months ago. I tried to do so this time only as an
 experiment for this thread. I can certainly do without it. That's not
 the point.
  
  It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
  originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
  (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
  effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.
 
 And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the
 thrill of putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to
 shout sue him; or is happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving
 in a way that the legislative bodies of the EU and its constituent
 states - representative of how many million people? - have agreed is so
 shabby and dishonest that it should not be allowed.
 
 Well, a couple of days ago, I might well have paid for future updates
 for this - despite not using it - and maybe for those of a couple more
 of his plug ins that I've got on the system but never or very rarely
 used. I'd have been happy to do so for future updates, too, if I used
 them and had been given a choice.  But I'm certainly not paying for
 them now.
  
  After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology.
 Too
  many developers fail to realize that.
 
 Too many developers can't even spell it (let alone psychology).


Would love to see you take this to the european court of law, go for
it, the majority will just sit back and listen to some music
complimented by Erlands excellent plugins, but do keep us all updated
with progress of your legal adventure if you decide to go for it


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread flattermann


cunobelinus;664473 Wrote: 
 
  It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
  originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
  (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
  effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.[/color]
 
 And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the
 thrill of putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to
 shout sue him; or is happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving
 in a way that the legislative bodies of the EU and its constituent
 states - representative of how many million people? - have agreed is so
 shabby and dishonest that it should not be allowed.

I still do not understand your legal issues here.

IMHO it's pretty simple:

Erland's plugins are released under GPL license.
You can get the source for *all* plugins and *all* versions on his
google code page.

If you were using his plugins before he introduced the License check,
you can still use these versions for free. They do not include any
License check and will work without the need to pay Erland a single
dollar.

Only if you use the newer versions of his plugins (i.e. the versions
AFTER he implemented the License check) will not work without a
license.

If your SBS is set to Install plugin updates automatically, this may
of course cause the plugin to be updated even if you do not want it.

In this case, you can downgrade the plugin version by download an older
version from Erland's page.

Nothing is taken away from you. You can still use the old versions for
free.

PS: I hope that enough people will support Erland and buy a license.
I once was the main dev of an open-source application with a user base
of around 400k users and the development was pretty time-consuming.
I asked for some donations and of the 400k people, I think 5-10 people
have donated.
So, IMHO, donations are a great idea, but it does not really work,
because there are not enough people ready to donate.
(I donated to Erland before and also bought a license now, but most
people probably did not.)


-- 
flattermann

Christian

Home of 'SqueezeCommander' (http://www.squeezecommander.com) - The
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Phil Leigh

http://echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/97564258-437D-4FFD-A54D-2766DE255CCA/0/DG2ENHRHAND102007.pdf

http://www.ilaw.com.au/public/licencearticle.html , in particular:

Estoppel
There may be scope to argue that a licensor is precluded from changing
the licence conditions on software if he or she misled the licensee
into relying on the continuance of the existing terms in the knowledge
that the licensee would be detrimentally affected by that reliance if
the terms were changed.

The argument would be based on a legal doctrine called estoppel, which
can prohibit you from exercising your legal rights - in this case, the
right to change the licence conditions - if you have allowed someone
else to rely on the fact that you wouldn't exercise those rights. In
light of the rhetoric that is often bandied about to the effect of
Once GPL, always GPL, circumstances could well exist in which this
argument would be quite persuasive.

The question is, can estoppel restrict a licensor from changing their
licence conditions to the user community as a whole, or only one
particular licensee? Probably only the latter, since it is generally
impossible to demonstrate reliance, which is one of the elements of
estoppel, except on a case-by-case basis. 59 This reduces the
usefulness of the estoppel argument to combat the withdrawal of open
source licensing of a package that is in widespread use. At best, one
open source licensee's victory will cause the licensor to reconsider
enforcing the new license terms against other former licensees.

Another limitation of the estoppel argument is that a court would not
necessarily compensate a licensee who had been misled into relying on
the continuity of an open source licence by requiring the licensor to
reinstate that license; it would be equally open for the court simply
to order the licensor to pay damages. Those damages might be negligible
unless the licensee has significant business interests riding on the use
of the package.

...

Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people
for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for
free or for a price - and then disable it or disable it until a fee is
paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.

I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
only Governments can do with impunity... !!

--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread pippin


Erland did not change the license conditions. He just charges for the
use.
You _can_ still use the plugins without the license manager if you
remove it you just have to do that.


-- 
pippin

---
see iPeng, the Squeezebox iPhone remote and 
*New: iPeng for iPad*, at penguinlovesmusic.com

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

+1. Perfect summary.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
 
 
 Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people
 for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
 nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for
 free or for a price -  and then disable it or disable it until a fee is
 paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
 Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
 
 I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
 silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
 modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
 only Governments can do with impunity... !!
 

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread reniera


cunobelinus;664491 Wrote: 
 +1. Perfect summary.
 
 
 On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
  
  
  Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge
 people
  for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
  nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract -
 for
  free or for a price -  and then disable it or disable it until a fee
 is
  paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
  Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
  
  I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
  silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
  modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
  only Governments can do with impunity... !!
  

Exactly, +1

A resolution to this would be Logitech take a couple of hours to
integrate a copy of trackstat in the original product.


-- 
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


cunobelinus;664491 Wrote: 
 +1. Perfect summary.
 
 
 On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
  
  
  Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge
 people
  for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
  nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract -
 for
  free or for a price -  and then disable it or disable it until a fee
 is
  paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
  Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
  
  I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
  silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
  modification of contract or license terms which is normally
 something
  only Governments can do with impunity... !!
  

ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do
next? Your options look like

1) Legally take it further
2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and
keep them free  fully in your control
3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins

Despite the legal issue I'm still sticking with 4)


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Phil Leigh


socistep;664506 Wrote: 
 ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do
 next? Your options look like
 
 1) Legally take it further
 2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and
 keep them free  fully in your control
 3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
 4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins
 
 Despite the legal issue I'm still sticking with 4)

3 and 4 are the only options that make sense. IF I used and wanted to
carry on using Trackstat (which I don't) I'd go for 4.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread aubuti


socistep;664506 Wrote: 
 ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do
 next? Your options look like
 
 1) Legally take it further
 2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and
 keep them free  fully in your control
 3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
 4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins
or
5) stop using the plugins 

(after all, if they're not worth 20 euros or whatever to you then at
the end of the day they really can't be all that important. You can be
unhappy about the process of moving to commercial, but it's too late to
change that.)


-- 
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread m1abrams


Here is another concern I have when a dev starts charging for something
that they previously gave away for free.  They realize their time is
worth something which it is and I am not saying it is not.  But then
they charge a price that will force users like me to say no thanks and
not buy.  Well the market for these plugins is very very small and if
the dev is not satisfied with the amount he collects because not enough
sales many times the dev just say screw it and stops all together
leaving people who paid for it SOL. 

Not saying this will happen with erland he has been doing this for a
long time.  Just saying I have seen this pattern in the past and it
never seems to go well.  If the price was lower I would bite on it but
as it stands I will have to pass.   That is my statement here is not
that he should not charge but that he might do better with a lower
price point.


-- 
m1abrams



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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread mmca22gr


An interesting discussion. I am sitting here reading while listening to
some music (using DynamicPlaylists) and drinking red wine.
I like the legal stuff, great fun. 
I paid the money - not because I use the plugins, but I recognised the
efforts that Erland puts into this forum and the software. I thought a
few quid for him to buy a beer while I sup red wine is not much to ask.


There is also option 6. Dry your eyes! There are worse thieves out
there overcharging for crap products and service.

BTW, running Dynamic Playlists  - most played songs and it just threw
up a Radiohead song that I have never heard before!! I also see a
robbie williams song in the Q. Jesus wept, what has the world come to.


Erland, you're fired! Give me back my beer money!


-- 
mmca22gr

-
SBS 7.7 WHS, 1 SliMP3, 1 SB2, 1 SBC, 1 DUET, 1 BOOM, 1 RADIO, 1 TOUCH
-

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread erland


Sorry, didn't spot this thread until now, guess it's time for some
official answer. I'm not going to start a long discussion about it, I'm
just going to post some comments, even though most of them have already
been answered by other people earlier in the thread.

1. 
Setting and viewing ratings for a single song through TrackStat is
still free, can't promise it will be free forever but currently it is,
it's just browsing the ratings and importing them from from iTunes,
MusicIP and similar systems that costs money. Of course, it's pretty
useless to set/view ratings unless you can browse them and use them in
smart playlists, but I just wanted to say that some functionality in
TrackStat still is available for free.

2. 
The old versions of the plugin which doesn't require licensing is still
available for manual download from my download site. I can't promise
they will be there forever but they are available at the moment. 

3. 
Anyone is free to modify the source code, it's still open source (GPL)
and you are free to modify it, redistribute it and even charge for it
if you like to. 

4. 
Nobody would be happier than me if someone, Logitech or third party,
volunteered to maintain, support and offer my plugins for free or even
for a more competitive fee than I'm offering. The following enhancement
request is one of the most wanted and Logitech have obviously completely
ignored it during all the time I've been around, I guess they don't feel
it's important:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=142
Anyone that things ratings should be part of the core system should at
least vote on this enhancement request to indicate to Logitech that
it's important.
I've asked for help to maintain the plugins, I've even offered Logitech
to spend my spare time to adjust them to be incorporated in the core
product, for free, but there have never been any interest for this from
Logitech's side. Just to show what I'm talking about, here are some
really old threads from the past:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24309
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28543
As you can see, there really wasn't much interest from Logitech
representatives, even back in 2006 when their management really cared
for the products.

5. 
The price for a one year license to TrackStat is $5. At least in Sweden
$5 is about the same as ONE burger meal on my favorite fast food
restaurant and personally I consider TrackStat usage for one year to be
worth more than one extra burger meal per year, but that's just me. To
anyone that still continue to think $5 is too much, consider what you
would have earned during one extra hour on your day work instead of
spending the time arguing in this thread, I bet most people would have
earned more than the price of a one year license to TrackStat.

6. 
I'm really not doing this for money, it's just that it's really hard to
justify spending 5-10 hours per week 5-6 years in a row, continuously
365 days per year, without getting some kind of compensation for the
time. It was easier earlier when you got invited to Logitech hardware
betas and Logitech showed some appreciation to the third party
developers that spent time enhancing their system and making Logitech
earn more money on it, but this isn't the case anymore, at least not
for me. Logitech has very clearly showed during the last years that
supporting third party development on the Squeezebox platform isn't a
priority, I know Michael and Andy still care for us and I appreciate
all their efforts a lot, but they don't have the power to do much and
their managers don't have a clue what third party developers have done
and can do for the Squeezebox hardware in the past and in the future.

7. 
The alternative for me would have been to drop support and maintenance
of the plugins completely. If anyone would prefer that, just let me
know, I'm happy to consider it if it's the general opinion. The main
(and only) reason I selected to use the current approach was that I was
running out of spare time and it started to feel like work instead of
spare time, with the current approach I'm able to work a few hours less
on my day job and instead get some spare time which I can use to develop
new features in existing plugins and develop completely new
revolutionary plugins related to Squeezebox usage.


I'm really sorry if this all makes some people upset, but really, I'm
not stopping anyone from taking over my work, you even get the current
source code for free as a base, just take over the maintenance, spend a
few hours per week continuously to support/maintain it and give it away
for free or for a charge to other users if you feel that's something
you like to do. I'll not try to stop anyone that really wants to do
this, I would really encourage and even help anyone that is interested
to do this, because my vision is that I could spend the main part of my
spare time to focus on the future, which I believe is the SMD project.

Finally, most importantly, I

Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Mnyb


Erland you could add some info on your site/wiki on how to install and
keep the old plugins( not updating ) I have a feeling that many simply
don't know how and you will be answering this a lot .
We are all spioled with to the new way off adding plugins via the web-
page manually installing may be a forgotten thing.

Personally I'll be running your never versions ( when they suport 7.7.)


-- 
Mnyb


Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD  SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever )

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread m1abrams


Erland sorry Logitech has not supported devs such as yourself and it
makes me question the future of the squeezebox products. Your post
actually makes me even less likely though to put more money into this
product.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread dasmueller


I am relatively new to this community-about 1 yr. I read the forums
daily and in many cases they have been of great help to me. I also do
not use the plugins I see people talking about.That being said, an
observation-most of the posts I see especially over the last several
months are due to issues with SBS or these plugins. Yes it would be
nice if everything went smoothly, I would love it. If someone outside
Logitech is willing to spend their time and energy to make things nicer
for others they should be applauded. If they were doing it in their
spare time just for the love of doing it fine. Erland is not doing what
he does with the plugins he works on to earn a living. He is doing it
because he enjoys the concept of wifi music and wants to enhance what
someone else sells to make it better. He could do it just for himself,
but shares with the rest of the community. I do not feel it wrong to sk
for some small compensation for all the effort he puts in. Of course if
we do not want to pay we can do it ourselves right ? 

Sorry for thr rant, but I just get tired of looking at the post of- I
do not want to pay for---

Thanks for what you do Erland !


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-20 Thread Meridion


reniera;664494 Wrote: 
 A resolution to this would be Logitech take a couple of hours to
 integrate a copy of trackstat in the original product.

The trackstat functionality should definitely be part of LMS!
I think this would differentiate it from the competition.

The competition (iTunes, Monkey, etc.) all have an 'intelligent'
playlist feature, which SBS or LMS don't have. So this functionality
schould be supplied by Logitech, too... 

$40 for these two feature is pricey but I decided to support erland
with some cash for his valuable work.


-- 
Meridion

1750 Alben mit 21559 Titel von 1706 Interpreten.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-19 Thread cunobelinus

Charging is fine. Charge new customers by all means (or old customers who want 
to add new plug ins) but not for goods already supplied. However, if I 
understand this correctly, the intention is to charge retrospectively.

Charging retrospectively for a commodity - any commodity - that was initially 
provided in return for good will or an optional donation is at best 
exploitative, and seems to me to be actually dishonest. The initial terms of 
supply constitute an agreement or contract. Changing them retrospectively is at 
the very least to act in bad faith. I’d be surprised if it is not also illegal 
in pretty much any legal code one would care to research.


On 18 Oct 2011, at 16:46, aubuti wrote:

 
 grzlhmpf;664066 Wrote: 
 I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to
 do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think
 this is going to work.
 You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations was
 working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't
 have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't sustainable
 for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial
 approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you think
 that would work better?
 
 It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than
 free will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will be
 sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find out
 what the plugins and applets do.
 
 
 -- 
 aubuti
 
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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-19 Thread Phil Leigh


cunobelinus;664263 Wrote: 
 Charging is fine. Charge new customers by all means (or old customers
 who want to add new plug ins) but not for goods already supplied.
 However, if I understand this correctly, the intention is to charge
 retrospectively.
 
 Charging retrospectively for a commodity - any commodity - that was
 initially provided in return for good will or an optional donation is
 at best exploitative, and seems to me to be actually dishonest. The
 initial terms of supply constitute an agreement or contract. Changing
 them retrospectively is at the very least to act in bad faith. Id be
 surprised if it is not also illegal in pretty much any legal code one
 would care to research.
 
 
 On 18 Oct 2011, at 16:46, aubuti wrote:
 
  
  grzlhmpf;664066 Wrote: 
  I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue
 to
  do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't
 think
  this is going to work.
  You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations
 was
  working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't
  have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't
 sustainable
  for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial
  approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you
 think
  that would work better?
  
  It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than
  free will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will
 be
  sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find
 out
  what the plugins and applets do.
  
  
  -- 
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 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90975
  
  

Under EU law it is indeed illegal to disable or otherwise distrain or
deprive one of the enjoyment of goods or services that were supplied
previously under one set of terms - in this case for free - 
UNLESS it was made plain in writing at the time of the original supply
that a defined-cost charge or a defined expiry would become effective
at a defined date in the future. 

This is to avoid consumers being held to ransom or suckered-in.

However, in this case (software) it only applies to a defined version
of the plugin - the last one freely published prior to the introduction
of a notified charge. So while it is perfectly valid to introduce a
charge for new versions, it cannot legally be applied retrospectively.
The consumer ALWAYS has the right to continue to enjoy the old, free
version or CHOOSE to pay for the new version.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-19 Thread cunobelinus

Is that what's being offered here, though? If so, then fine. It would be both 
legal and entirely reasonable. My impression from the initial post in this 
thread, however, was that - to quote its first sentence - trackstat 
deactivated itself. This implies that an existing update had been unilaterally 
deactivated by the vendor in expectation of payment (although I realise now 
that that might imply merely the end of a trial period). If that's not the 
case, then clearly I have missed something and misunderstood what all the fuss 
is about.

Erland's opening post in his thread about this might be read either way: to 
suggest that this will apply only to new installations, or that charges will be 
applied retrospectively for existing installations. He said: The plugin/applet 
will be required for the people using my other applets or plugins. His use of 
using seems to imply strongly that those already using the plug ins will be 
affected, whether they like it or not.

That implication is further strengthened in the next part of that sentence:  
The purpose is that the full functionality in the applets/plugins will slowly 
start to only be available for paying customers .Slowly is then defined as 
being rolled out from a few plug ins initially to, perhaps, his full range.   
It is possible that this is intended to apply only to new installations, but 
that was not my understanding when reading it, and if that is the intention it 
is by no means clear.

If it is intended to charge only for new installations, while $20 seems a very 
high price for a plug in for an existing application when set against common 
pricing paradigms elsewhere, he has every right to ask whatever price he thinks 
will give him the best income. It's his work and his time.

If not - well, that's a different matter entirely, as your excellent post makes 
very clear, Phil. Some clarification from Erland would be helpful.

On 19 Oct 2011, at 16:54, Phil Leigh wrote:

 The consumer ALWAYS has the right to continue to enjoy the old, free
 version or CHOOSE to pay for the new version.

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-19 Thread cparker


Phil Leigh;664264 Wrote: 
 Under EU law it is indeed illegal to disable or otherwise distrain or
 deprive one of the enjoyment of goods or services that were supplied
 previously under one set of terms - in this case for free - 
 UNLESS it was made plain in writing at the time of the original supply
 that a defined-cost charge or a defined expiry would become effective
 at a defined date in the future. 
 

Can you provide a source for this quotation?  The older version still
seems to work fine so the change/charge is not being applied
retrospectively.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-19 Thread GeeJay


My plugins worked fine until I upgraded, several weeks after he
introduced License Manager and the new versions of his plug-ins. It was
clear to me that if I upgraded I would have to pay the fee, but as long
as I didn't I could still use the older version. 

I've been sending annual donations to Erland for awhile now, at an
amount that is consistent with what he's charging. I obviously believe
it's worth the price.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-18 Thread socistep


reniera;663940 Wrote: 
 I respect your opinion, but seriously, track rating and play count were
 present in all media players I used in the past (winamp, itunes,
 mediamonkey, Windows Media players, ipod, ipad).

I would agree on ratings being important and central to a number of
other products, however as a comparison Sonos (I believe could be
wrong) doesn't have any support for ratings.

For the record the 2 important Erland plugins I use are Trackstat and
Dynamic Playlists based on the ratings, a lot of our listening is based
on Top Rated All, pop, rock, indie, 80s, 90s, 00s etc.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-18 Thread socistep


exile;663874 Wrote: 
 bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely
 transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in
 order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest
 revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too
 cheap then it's their loss.

spot on


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-18 Thread grzlhmpf


I have never used any of erlangs advanced plugins... i played around
with trackstat but i don't really need it.
looking at the dynamic playlist stuff was on my todo for later
list... i'll mark that one as skip it, i never really got what all
that is about anyway and now i am certainly NOT going to pay for a
functionality i may not need or use anyway... certaintly not for $20 or
$50...

and dont tell me there is a trial period, i know.

existing users will certainly  pay, but i guess new squeezebox owners
will not be willing to open their wallet again at that pricepoint. 
If you install any of those plugins the first message is license
manager needed and then EVERY plugin asks for a license... most poeple
will probably never check the pricing but delete those plugins right
away.

I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to
do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think
this is going to work.

Mike


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-18 Thread aubuti


grzlhmpf;664066 Wrote: 
 I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to
 do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think
 this is going to work.
You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations was
working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't
have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't sustainable
for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial
approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you think
that would work better?

It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than
free will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will be
sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find out
what the plugins and applets do.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


garym;663750 Wrote: 
 Then don't buy it. Erland has provided a tremendous resource with his
 plugins. But no one is forcing you to purchase them.  The software is
 always more expensive than the hardware. I have a few thousand invested
 in my equipment, but easily over $50k in CDs and vinyl albums.
 
 Edit: and by investment I only mean for my own enjoyment, not any sort
 of monetary return.

I also invested a lot of time to rate my collection ... And have to pay
to use it now. That's what i mean by taken in hostage.
I would also be annoyed if musicbrainz asked me money tomorrow to read
the tags i have encoded yesterday.
Just like if microsoft ask me now to pay to open the word document i
have created in the past.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread m1abrams


garym;663750 Wrote: 
 Then don't buy it. Erland has provided a tremendous resource with his
 plugins. But no one is forcing you to purchase them.  The software is
 always more expensive than the hardware. I have a few thousand invested
 in my equipment, but easily over $50k in CDs and vinyl albums.
 
 Edit: and by investment I only mean for my own enjoyment, not any sort
 of monetary return.

The do not buy it is obvious gee thanks.  But the point of this thread
was to point out that some users think the price is too high and are
not buying it for that reason.  This info may help erland understand
how he might get more people to buy. Ipeng is a good example of proper
pricing.  It provides a huge amount more functionality at half the
cost.  If erlands price was lower I would jump on it.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread Mnyb


This does not stop the old versions of the plugin to work ?
or does it ? I think Erland has a tread somewhere specifically for
this.

However random changes by logitech migth make the plugin obselete soon
enough, but that's not a new problem ,many plugins share this fate


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


m1abrams;663822 Wrote: 
 The do not buy it is obvious gee thanks.  But the point of this thread
 was to point out that some users think the price is too high and are
 not buying it for that reason.  This info may help erland understand
 how he might get more people to buy. Ipeng is a good example of proper
 pricing.  It provides a huge amount more functionality at half the
 cost.  If erlands price was lower I would jump on it.

I agree this is obvious. I guess I must just think about these things
differently. I had already done donations to erland for his good work
prior to this pricing in an amount in excess of what he now charges for
a lifetime license. And I primarly only use SQL Playlist and Dynamic
Playlists.  But I do the same with mp3tag and other free programs.

There is no free lunch. The explicit cost is paying someone for the
product. The implicit cost is losing future devlopment on useful
plugins.  Whether the price is a good price or not, I don't know. But a
lifetime license for all his plugins for the cost of 3 to 6 CDs, seems
like a bargain to me.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread m1abrams


garym;663828 Wrote: 
 I agree this is obvious. I guess I must just think about these things
 differently. I had already done donations to erland for his good work
 prior to this pricing in an amount in excess of what he now charges for
 a lifetime license. And I primarly only use SQL Playlist and Dynamic
 Playlists.  But I do the same with mp3tag and other free programs.
 
 There is no free lunch. The explicit cost is paying someone for the
 product. The implicit cost is losing future devlopment on useful
 plugins.  Whether the price is a good price or not, I don't know. But a
 lifetime license for all his plugins for the cost of 3 to 6 CDs, seems
 like a bargain to me.

Listen I do not think anyone is arguing that erland should not be able
to charge for his product.  Hell he can charge whatever he wants.  My
point is his approach and fee are such that I will not be paying for
it.  If he charged less or provided something new in this new version
other than requiring a license he would get my money.   Note this is MY
requirements and no one else's if you feel it is properly priced great,
I do not and will not buy it.  This is not a bash on erland. In fact
just the opposite, I want to buy the product but not at it's current
price/value ratio.  Lifetime license are not something I normally buy
into mainly because they are only worth as much as the company behind
them and in this case it is a single guy who while I do not think is
going to stop anytime soon but if he did that license is not very
useful. 

FYI - I work as software developer


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread aubuti


m1abrams;663722 Wrote: 
 I must say I agree. The price is just way too high for the product.  I
 have enjoyed the plugin but not enough to pay that amount.
For the record, one month ago, when Erland announced the plugins were
going commercial, he stated '\...at the start the exact pricing will
be up to you. You pay what you think a one year license is worth.\'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90410) True, some users
were no doubt not on the forums in the past month, and may be surprised.
But others were on the forums and must have been aware, or just not
paying attention to what was in front of them.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread exile


bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely
transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in
order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest
revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too
cheap then it's their loss.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


reniera;663765 Wrote: 
 Just like if microsoft ask me now to pay to open the word document i
 have created in the past.

not a good comparison, as Microsoft charged you (or someone) a price to
purchase the program that created the WORD document. No one is using
WORD for free (at least not legally).


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


garym;663890 Wrote: 
 not a good comparison, as Microsoft charged you (or someone) a price to
 purchase the program that created the WORD document. No one is using
 WORD for free (at least not legally).

Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it
becomes commercial.

My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play
counts.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


exile;663874 Wrote: 
 bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely
 transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in
 order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest
 revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too
 cheap then it's their loss.

Perhaps logitech would have felt obliged to develop those features if
someone had not done the job for free... 
I truly hope that logitech now understand that they cannot rely anymore
on 3rd parties to develop core functionnalities.
Again track rating is a very basic features. Something you can't
imagine paying on top.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread cparker


reniera;663901 Wrote: 
 Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it
 becomes commercial.
 
 My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play
 counts.

So you have a few options;
1) Spend the $20 and buy some beer to drown your sorrows 
2) Value Erland's time and pay $20, job done
3) Learn Perl yourself and write your own TrackStat, after you've spent
many hours/months of your own free time, then maybe that $20 doesnt
sound such bad value


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


cparker;663905 Wrote: 
 So you have a few options;
 1) Spend the $20 and buy some beer to drown your sorrows 
 2) Value Erland's time and pay $20, job done
 3) Learn Perl yourself and write your own TrackStat, after you've spent
 many hours/months of your own free time, then maybe that $20 doesnt
 sound such bad value

4) stop spending my time using 3rd party plugins, waiting for core
features to improve.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread johnas


reniera;663908 Wrote: 
 4) ( but 20euros for trackstat, you must be joking !)

You could pay for the one year licence which I guess is 5$. Maybe you
will think this is too much year over year but just saying there are
cheaper options.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


johnas;663914 Wrote: 
 You could pay for the one year licence which I guess is 5$. Maybe you
 will think this is too much year over year but just saying there are
 cheaper options (ironically Eland's payment system seems to be down at
 the moment).

Indeed but i have installed squeezebox things at two other places and
don't want to enter a system where i'd have to go to every places every
years.

Damn !   I just realize i would have to pay 60 euros then for 3 servers
!  Luckily, i had not installed more plugins from erlands around !   I
guess i won't dare telling my sister and friend that they own me 20
euros each for the sound system i put at their places (especially after
all the 7.6 problems)

Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ?  Now, i'm even more
concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.

Realy, i want to stay out of that.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


reniera;663901 Wrote: 
 Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it
 becomes commercial.
 
 My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play
 counts.

The data is still there. You could program your own approach to using
the data or pay someone to write a program to use the data. Of course,
that is essentially what Erland is asking you to do.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread aubuti


reniera;663904 Wrote: 
 Perhaps logitech would have felt obliged to develop those features if
 someone had not done the job for free... 
 I truly hope that logitech now understand that they cannot rely anymore
 on 3rd parties to develop core functionnalities.
 Again track rating is a very basic features. Something you can't
 imagine paying on top.
 The other more 'exotic' plugins of erland, i don't know. I only used
 trackstat.
Please don't forget that one person's core feature is another
person's exotic plugin. I use a lot of plugins, including some of
Erland's, and never once thought about using TrackStat, even when it
was free. I think DynamicPlaylist and SQLPlaylist are much closer to
being core features than TrackStat. You probably won't agree, but
then that's my point: Logitech can't be developing everyone's idea of
core features.

Btw, I don't know TrackStat, but doesn't it store your ratings and play
counts in the SQL database? If so, then the time you spent isn't lost,
as you can recapture them using any of several utilities that read SQL.
Many of them are free.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


reniera;663925 Wrote: 
 Indeed but i have installed squeezebox things at two other places and
 don't want to enter a system where i'd have to go to every places every
 years.
 
 Damn !   I just realize i would have to pay 60 euros then for 3 servers
 !  Luckily, i had not installed more plugins from erlands around !   I
 guess i won't dare telling my sister and friend that they own me 20
 euros each for the sound system i put at their places (especially after
 all the 7.6 problems)
 
 Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ?  Now, i'm even more
 concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.
 
 Realy, i want to stay out of that.


My understanding:  The license is tied to you as a mysqueezebox.com
user. So if you have multiple servers, but they are all identified to
your mysqueezebox.com account, there is only a single license for all
the servers.  It certainly works on all my instances of SbS, but again,
all my SbS are tied to my single mysb.com account.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !


aubuti;663930 Wrote: 
 Please don't forget that one person's core feature is another person's
 exotic plugin. I use a lot of plugins, including some of Erland's, and
 never once thought about using TrackStat, even when it was free. 

good point. I use sql playlist and dynamic playlist every day. But have
never used trackstat.


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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !

2011-10-17 Thread flattermann


reniera;663925 Wrote: 
 Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ?  Now, i'm even more
 concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.
 
 Realy, i want to stay out of that.

It's charged by your MySB.com identity (=MySB email address).

If you have several servers, all connected to the same MySB.com
account, you only need to pay once.


-- 
flattermann

Christian

Home of 'SqueezeCommander' (http://www.squeezecommander.com) - The
SqueezeBox Remote Control App for Android

flattermann's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33169
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90975

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Re: [slim] I don't want to pay for trackstat !