Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,4/27/2016 10:32 PM, Wes wrote:
Where are the errors? 


K6OIK has published on the subject.  Google is your friend. :)

73, Jim


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Josh Fiden]

If you mention "conjugate match" expect fireworks...

73,
Josh W6XU

On 4/27/2016 10:32 PM, Wes wrote:

Where are the errors?

On 4/27/2016 3:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
Actually, Walt Maxwell is NOT the best source -- there are 
fundamental errors in it, which is why ARRL no longer publishes it.


73, Jim K9YC




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Re: [Elecraft] KX1 Part 1 build issue

[frank]

Thanks Don,

I'm a fairly experienced builder so I've seen problems like bad solder 
joints cause all kinds of strange symptoms. More often than not it will 
end up being something simple like that. I'm still looking and I haven't 
ruled anything out.


Meanwhile, it looks like I dropped my first post in the middle of 
another thread. My apologies. I'll bow out here and start my own topic.


73 KK6WUU

On 4/27/2016 5:46 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Frank,

That "smells" like a bad solder connection somewhere.
...

73,
Don W3FPR


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Wes]

Where are the errors?

On 4/27/2016 3:40 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
Actually, Walt Maxwell is NOT the best source -- there are fundamental errors 
in it, which is why ARRL no longer publishes it.


73, Jim K9YC


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[Elecraft] FS: PX3 Nifty stand

[Bruce Nourish]

Hi folks,

I picked up a nifty PX3 stand with a recent purchase of a PX3, but I don't
need it for my shack, and someone else should have the use of it. Used but
good condition, shipped domestic only. $10 + shipping, whatever method you
want.

Bruce
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[Elecraft] TX GAIN CAL Problem Fixed...(maybe)?.....

[W5RDW]

After noticing my Acom 1500 not producing full output on some bands (Acom
tested good), I went off and started what I thought to be a short TX Gain
Cal (which I had never done) to the factory assembled rig. This rig has
functioned perfectly since I received it from the factory on 4/19/2011.

I am not going into the myriads of runs on the cal procedure in the latest
utility (1.15.12.7) and firmware, as I was very frustrated. I was successful
in the 5W cal up to the 60M band where I hit a dead end. I looked thru the
dozens of posts and tried all that had something to do with tweaking the
computer inputs. No luck. Then, I noticed a few type of mechanical type
problems, most I would not try in opening up the rig. I'm too old for that
and my ham radio tweaking inside a radio are long behind me (8 years retired
and full time caregiver for my wife).

While running a sweep of another TX Gain Cal, when the run was inside the
60M band trying to find 5W (it was good at finding 3.4W or so), I lifted the
rig at the front and let it drop an inch, out of frustration than anything
else! *Lo and behold*, the run slowed, showed 5W and proceeded on to a
successful 5W cal. I nervously selected the 50W process and yes, you know
the answer, it worked like a champ.

Going to bed now (almost 10PM now). I guess there is a loose pwb, component
or cable inside? Maybe someone can give a guess at what might be wrong. If
it is easy to get at, I could go in and start to tighten screws first,
re-seat cables, etc.? 

BTW, the rig has never been dropped, etc. always sitting there waiting for
the next DX station! 

Roger W5RDW




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Roger W5RDW
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View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/TX-GAIN-CAL-Problem-Fixed-maybe-tp7616870.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s - No transmit - Resolved

[Gary Smith]

Thank God!

I have been working with two separate K3's without the sub and they 
have a jumper that has to be removed from connector J64A on the RF 
board before you install the KNB3 SUBIN Board. I remembered seeing 
those jumpers on these K3's and also, I had some difficulty removing 
the Sub Rx to get at the filters (the coax were binding & making it 
tougher to remove) and in the the process of removing the Sub Rx, the 
SUBIN board came out, attached to the pins on the Sub Rx deck. 

I started thinking of what variables there were & remembered from 
building my K3, that that jumper had to be there for transmit. Then 
it clicked; I wondered if maybe I hadn't replaced the SUBIN correctly 
and if so, maybe that misalignment was the cause of the problem with 
now having no transmit.

Removed everything again & got a better light in there and sure 
enough, the pins were one off. Re-installed it mo' bettah and 
replaced the Sub Rx and now all is as it should be; transmitting with 
a smile & hearing a fly hiccup at 20 feet.

Maybe someone else will find this on Nabble someday, looking for old 
threads on the subject, while trying to figure out what went wrong 
with transmit after replacing filters with a sub Rx board.

Time for a nice IPA...

73 & Thanks Don & Kevin, I appreciate the replies to help me.

Gary
KA1J

> I just added some filters to the K3s and configured the filters with 
> the K3 config. The radio hears perfectly on all the modes and the 
> filters are working beautifully. now however, it does not transmit. 
> It is not in test mode.
> 
> I did nothing else to the radio while I had it open.
> 
> Tapping a key, SSB or pressing XMIT and there is zero output.this at 
> 1W or 25W. 
> 
> The red TX LED lights. 
> 
> It signals the relay in the amp properly. 
> 
> On the P3 transmit monitor I see .02-.03W PEP registering, no SWR 
> reading and the LP-100A shows no sign of a signal. 
> 
> I restored a known good configuration with no change. 
> 
> No error messages are showing, no warning message on startup.
> 
> 13.6 V on the K3 meter.
> 
> trying the ATU, it shows 5W on the display, relays clack, no output 
> on the P3 output except that .02-.03W & nothing on the LP100A
> 
> I have triple checked to be sure all the coax to the Synths, TXCO & 
> Sub are attached properly.
> 
> I have made sure all the connections to the sub RX are inserted 
> properly.
> 
> I must be missing something obvious. Any ideas what I might look at?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gary
> KA1J
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s - No transmit

[Don Wilhelm]

Gary,

If K3 Utility does not do the job for you, use the K3 menu directly - 
see page 51 in the manual.


Go into the menu and set all your filters to ON.  Set FLx BW, FLx FRQ, 
FLxGn, FLX ON for each filter.  Then set FLTX to the appropriate filter 
per mode.  For CW and SSB set it to the 2.7 (or 2.8 filter),  For AM, 6 
kHz if available, otherwise the 13kHz, for FM the 13kHz if installed.  
K3 Utility should show you the same thing as recorded in the menu.


Make sure the filters are plugged in the K3 RF board from highest to 
lowest as indicated on the silkscreen.


Has it been working before? or is this a recent problem?  If working 
before, what has changed?


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 9:18 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

There is:

2.8K is for CW and SSB
6K is for AM and the FM is checked by default.

Installed in the main is:
FL1 6K - {AM}
FL2 2.8K - {CW & SSB}
FL3 1K
FL4 400 Hz
FL5 200 Hz

Sub:
FL1 6K
FL2 2.7K
FL3 1K
FL4 500 Hz
FL5 250 Hz


When running through Config I only see FL4 listed, no other filters
show up as in FL5, FL3, FL2 & FL1

FL4 Config options read:

FL4 BW  rF .40
FL4 FREQ  rF 0.00
FL4 GN  rF 0db
FL4 ON  rF yes
FLTX SB FL2


73,



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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 Attenuation in Operate

[Jack]

Ok...here is the solution, Craig at Elecraft immediately suggested I check R7 
on the LPF board. Good suggestion since it was missing...he is sending me R7 
smt which should fix the problem.
Jack
W4GRJ

On Apr 24, 2016, at 10:46 AM, george allen  wrote:

Oooops, sorry Jack...was thinking of the KAT500 antenna tuner.  I have both the 
KAT500 tuner and the KPA500 amp.  I have not seen your issue with the 
ampbut, do see a similar issue with the tuner.

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 24, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Jack  wrote:
> 
> I really don't understand your comments since there is no tuner in the KPA500
> Jack
> W4GRJ 
> 
> On Apr 24, 2016, at 10:14 AM, george allen  wrote:
> 
> If the KPA500 is not tuned to the frequency you listening to, the signal 
> strength will be way idown as the radio is not tuned to the antenna. Transmit 
> to tune the antenna, and the signal will come back up.  When in standby or 
> off, the tuner is out of the circuit so the antenna match MAY be some what 
> better.
> 
> I too, see this in my shack.  For example, tuner is on automatic, last 
> tranmit band was 20mtrs, and I listen to 40 mtrs...signal way down.  
> Transmit, the tuner tunes, and the signal strength is normal.
> 
> If you have your K3 connected to the tuner to supply frequency info to the 
> tuner, and you have "trained" the tuner to preset tuning for frequencies you 
> use, this should not happen.
> 
> In my case I am using a Flex6700 with the tuner...freq info not sent to the 
> tuner, so this is common for me.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Apr 24, 2016, at 7:12 AM, Jack Satterfield  wrote:
>> 
>> This one has me scratching my head, when switching KPA500 from standby to
>> operate the receiver signal drops about 30db otherwise it is operating
>> Normally.
>> 
>> Suggestions appreciated
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> W4GRJ
>> 
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[Elecraft] SteppIR

[WILLIS COOKE via Elecraft]

I have had a SteppIR 3 element with about 250 feet of RG-213.  I have not 
measured the loss, but with a KW or less can work DXCC in about 30 days without 
a contest.  I lost an ECU on driven with a tape pawl failure, but pawl has been 
upgraded twice since purchase.  I lost three ECUs during Ike from failure of 
the fiberglass tube that failed after over an hour in eye at over 120 mph 
estimated.  The fiberglass elements all fell to ground, but were reused.  The 
returns on the trombone were replaced.  I lost one stepper motor in the driven 
element from a lightning.strike.  I lost the control cable when I did not leave 
enough slack and broke it in two.  A lot to be sure, but considering where I 
live, not too bad.  It is on a Rohn 25 tilt over at about 21 meters. Willis 
'Cookie' Cooke,K5EWJ
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Richard S. Leary]

Gil, et All
Have to agree with you. Raised my DB-18 (3 el) on 10/18/2010. Built it myself, 
but took my time. Club members helped me get it up. Been working fine ever 
since, with a K3, KPA500, and P3. Course, it's well washed down time to time 
with our Western Washington rain. I don't use a tuner, other than the one in 
the K3, when the amp is off.
73,
Rick, W7LKG



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard 
gillingham
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 14:23
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Wes
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

I dunno, Mine (3 el Steppir) has been up since 2003 with no trouble whatsoever. 
  Less trouble than I've had with the Butternut vert I have for the lower 
bands.  

Gil, W1RG

On Wed, 4/27/16, Wes  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 4:23 PM
 
 I don't own one, but
 I've helped put one up for a fellow club member.  Based  on  his. and other 
members' experiences,  if you like failures out of the box, and as  an ongoing 
proposition, go for it.
 
 On 4/27/2016 1:08 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
 wrote:
 > Along came SteppIR.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s - No transmit

[Gary Smith]

There is:

2.8K is for CW and SSB
6K is for AM and the FM is checked by default.

Installed in the main is:
FL1 6K - {AM}
FL2 2.8K - {CW & SSB}
FL3 1K
FL4 400 Hz
FL5 200 Hz

Sub:
FL1 6K
FL2 2.7K
FL3 1K
FL4 500 Hz
FL5 250 Hz


When running through Config I only see FL4 listed, no other filters 
show up as in FL5, FL3, FL2 & FL1

FL4 Config options read:

FL4 BW  rF .40
FL4 FREQ  rF 0.00
FL4 GN  rF 0db
FL4 ON  rF yes
FLTX SB FL2


73,

Gary
KA1J

> Open up the utility again and make sure you have specified a transmit 
> filter for all modes.
> 
> On 4/27/2016 7:51 PM, Gary Smith wrote:
> > I just added some filters to the K3s and configured the filters with
> > the K3 config. The radio hears perfectly on all the modes and the
> > filters are working beautifully. now however, it does not transmit.
> > It is not in test mode.
> >
> > I did nothing else to the radio while I had it open.
> >
> > Tapping a key, SSB or pressing XMIT and there is zero output.this at
> > 1W or 25W.
> >
> > The red TX LED lights.
> >
> > It signals the relay in the amp properly.
> >
> > On the P3 transmit monitor I see .02-.03W PEP registering, no SWR
> > reading and the LP-100A shows no sign of a signal.
> >
> > I restored a known good configuration with no change.
> >
> > No error messages are showing, no warning message on startup.
> >
> > 13.6 V on the K3 meter.
> >
> > trying the ATU, it shows 5W on the display, relays clack, no output
> > on the P3 output except that .02-.03W & nothing on the LP100A
> >
> > I have triple checked to be sure all the coax to the Synths, TXCO &
> > Sub are attached properly.
> >
> > I have made sure all the connections to the sub RX are inserted
> > properly.
> >
> > I must be missing something obvious. Any ideas what I might look at?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Gary
> > KA1J
> > __
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> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Updated K2?

[Al Lorona]

Something really nice about the K2's DSP is that all of the bandwidth, gain, 
and denoising parameters are adjustable. There is a wide range of filtering and 
denoising possible with very fine gradations. If you like to tweak, go for it. 
But, as Phil implies, if you lack the patience to get the parameters just right 
you'll be stuck with the defaults, which may or may not agree with your idea of 
just-right noise reduction.

Al W6LX



>I think it's good once you get it adjusted. 
>Adjusting it is a bit complex.

>73, Phil W7OX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3s - No transmit

[Kevin Stover]

Open up the utility again and make sure you have specified a transmit 
filter for all modes.


On 4/27/2016 7:51 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

I just added some filters to the K3s and configured the filters with
the K3 config. The radio hears perfectly on all the modes and the
filters are working beautifully. now however, it does not transmit.
It is not in test mode.

I did nothing else to the radio while I had it open.

Tapping a key, SSB or pressing XMIT and there is zero output.this at
1W or 25W.

The red TX LED lights.

It signals the relay in the amp properly.

On the P3 transmit monitor I see .02-.03W PEP registering, no SWR
reading and the LP-100A shows no sign of a signal.

I restored a known good configuration with no change.

No error messages are showing, no warning message on startup.

13.6 V on the K3 meter.

trying the ATU, it shows 5W on the display, relays clack, no output
on the P3 output except that .02-.03W & nothing on the LP100A

I have triple checked to be sure all the coax to the Synths, TXCO &
Sub are attached properly.

I have made sure all the connections to the sub RX are inserted
properly.

I must be missing something obvious. Any ideas what I might look at?

Thanks

Gary
KA1J
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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Edward R Cole]

Well my guess that most hams have the tuner at the radio (or inside 
the radio).


I was trying to minimize my cost when I bought my K3/10 (only $2900 
with accessories), so I did not buy the 100w amp or atu.  I already 
had a used MFJ mobile tuner (good to 200w) so that sufficed.  The MFJ 
finally died (not worth fixing) so I bought a used Drake MN2000 
manual tuner.  It handled my CCI 300w amp (and gave a handy RF meter 
to show output).  It is in the shack (arms not long enough to reach 
the knobs on top of my tower at 50-feet).


I only have two operating HF antenna: 80-40m fan inverted-V and 
Hygain TH3mk4 triband yagi.  80m matches where I operate (75m phone) 
and 40m needs a  bit of tuner with 3:1 SWR.  The old tribander needs 
a bit on all bands.  Tuner only use is to make the ssa happy with 
providing a 50-ohm load.  Feedlines are about 80-foot.


I have one more wire antenna which is used on 600m: 43x122 foot 
inverted-L.  I has a huge base coil for matching.  SWR bw is about 
5-KHz (495-500 KHz) and efficiency is < 1%.  But my 4w ERP has been 
received in Buffalo, NY; not too shabby.  Feedline SWR runs about 1.5 
for the 100w amp.


My first transmitter was the DX35 with 6146 and pi-net output 
tank.  Peak n Dip could load anything.  SWR? whas dat?  I did not 
have a power meter.  FCC regs told me I could run 75w dc input.


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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[Elecraft] Firmware Problem

[James D. (Jimmy) Walker, Jr. via Elecraft]

I'm having my old firmware problem again. My K-3 refused to turn on this 
afternoon displaying the dreaded MCU LD at the bottom of screen. Past 
experience has demonstrated that this indicates a problem with the K-3 
firmware. I've had several theories proposed for a solution, none of which have 
been successful.

By way of further background, I can solve the problem by disconnecting the P3 
from the line going to the computer and reloading the firmware directly to the 
K-3 from the computer. In this way, with only the radio connected to the 
computer, I can reload the firmware, solving the problem. This is most 
inconvenient but, fortunately, it does provide a solution.

For those on this reflector who have followed my problem, here's a new 
possibility for solution. I have one of the earlier K-3’s with a .5 amp rating 
on the DC power output. I understand newer K-3's are rated for 1 amp or more. 
I've had my P-3 Panadapter set up to turn on automatically at the time of the 
start of the radio. I now wonder if this drain on the DC output by the P3 
Panadapter may have caused a significant voltage causing the system to bomb out.

I have now adjusted the jumpers on the P-3 so as to start the P-3 manually 
after the radio. I wonder if anyone has any ideas that this might have been a 
good solution or is instead of another blind alley? I guess I’ll find out 
sooner or later. As far as I know I’m the only user having this problem.

Jimmy, WA4ILO


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[Elecraft] K3s - No transmit

[Gary Smith]

I just added some filters to the K3s and configured the filters with 
the K3 config. The radio hears perfectly on all the modes and the 
filters are working beautifully. now however, it does not transmit. 
It is not in test mode.

I did nothing else to the radio while I had it open.

Tapping a key, SSB or pressing XMIT and there is zero output.this at 
1W or 25W. 

The red TX LED lights. 

It signals the relay in the amp properly. 

On the P3 transmit monitor I see .02-.03W PEP registering, no SWR 
reading and the LP-100A shows no sign of a signal. 

I restored a known good configuration with no change. 

No error messages are showing, no warning message on startup.

13.6 V on the K3 meter.

trying the ATU, it shows 5W on the display, relays clack, no output 
on the P3 output except that .02-.03W & nothing on the LP100A

I have triple checked to be sure all the coax to the Synths, TXCO & 
Sub are attached properly.

I have made sure all the connections to the sub RX are inserted 
properly.

I must be missing something obvious. Any ideas what I might look at?

Thanks

Gary
KA1J
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Re: [Elecraft] KX1 Part 1 build issue

[Don Wilhelm]

Frank,

That "smells" like a bad solder connection somewhere.
I would go back over the soldering with an iron temperature of 750 degF 
or hotter.
Make certain that the solder flows out completely onto both the 
component lead and the solder pad - add a bit of solder as you go (you 
should actually be adding flux).
A solder dwell time with a sufficiently hot iron should happen in 3 to 4 
seconds.  If the solder does not flow out in that time, the iron is too 
cold.  If it happens in 1 second or less, the iron is too hot.


Look at you solder connection.  With thru-hole components, you should 
see the solder wick through the thru-hole connections on the board.


A sage builder said that good solder connections should look like a 
mountain, but not like a volcano.  Your solder connections should have a 
nice fillet around the component lead, and it should be concave.  If the 
solder connections look more like balls, then sufficient heat has not 
been applied and will result in a faulty connection.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 8:14 PM, frank wrote:
I'm building a KX1 and finished Part 1. I encountered problems during 
testing.


First I noticed when scrolling through the MENU items some some 
segments of the LED display don't light on some menu item names. 
However the same segment might light on another menu item.


Now it's started going dark during testing and not coming back on 
after button clicks or encoder turns. When it does this the 5v and 6v 
lines still have correct voltages and nothing feels hot to the touch. 
The only way to get it to come back is to turn it off and wait a while.


I've carefully checked parts placement and solder joints and can find 
no problems, and it passes all the part 1 voltage tests.


What should I do?



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Re: [Elecraft] Procedure: Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[Bill Frantz]

Well, these are always problems.

1) To avoid the guy 2.5KHz away, cut the high frequency cut off 
down low. I frequently operate it at 2.05 or 2.15 KHz. I keep 
the low frequency cutoff much more constant at .25 to .36 KHz. 
This procedure will keep most of the interfering signal out of 
the audio.


2) That weak DX is always a problem. If he is running split and 
you have a subreceiver, then adjust the two receiver AF volume 
control differently. If the loud signal is on the same 
frequency, you can try to adjust the AGC parameters to "even 
out" the audio. The AGC SLP parameter is the one to look at 
first, but a warning. It is an advanced control, and requires 
TECH MD ON to adjust. Many on the list think the K3 comes set 
too flat already. But you can always return the settings to the 
default listed in the manual if you don't like your results.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/27/16 at 2:38 PM, ac...@frontier.com wrote:


1. During contests, how to best adjust to hear the station and not the guy 
2.5KHz away

2. When trying to hear the weak DX, not be blasted by that guy 
from Florida or Texas running a kilowatt.

---
Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | to C's continuing support of | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | buffer overruns. | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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[Elecraft] SteppIR Experiences - was Re: Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Bill Frantz]

Since thinking about tuned for ever frequency with the SteppIR, 
I've developed a bit of SteppIR lust. Please let me know off 
list if you have had problems with them. I'll summarize any 
significant response for the list since this is kind of off topic.


I won't actually do anything until my tower application to the 
Los Gatos (CA) planning department goes through. Any advice 
about that will also be appreciated.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/27/16 at 2:31 PM, e...@elecraft.com (Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, 
Elecraft) wrote:


I've had my 4 El Steppir (20-10, plus 2 more fixed el for 6 m) 
up for over ten years 1 mile from the Ocean. Zero problems.


Great antenna.

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 4/27/2016 2:23 PM, Richard gillingham wrote:

I dunno, Mine (3 el Steppir) has been up since 2003 with no trouble whatsoever. 
  Less trouble than

I've had with the Butternut vert I have for the lower bands.


Gil, W1RG


---
Bill Frantz| Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten
408-356-8506   | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?

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[Elecraft] KX1 Part 1 build issue

[frank]

I'm building a KX1 and finished Part 1. I encountered problems during 
testing.


First I noticed when scrolling through the MENU items some some segments 
of the LED display don't light on some menu item names. However the same 
segment might light on another menu item.


Now it's started going dark during testing and not coming back on after 
button clicks or encoder turns. When it does this the 5v and 6v lines 
still have correct voltages and nothing feels hot to the touch. The only 
way to get it to come back is to turn it off and wait a while.


I've carefully checked parts placement and solder joints and can find no 
problems, and it passes all the part 1 voltage tests.


What should I do?

Thanks,

--Frank Cox
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Re: [Elecraft] Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[Bill]

I usually run the ATT and RF Gain at about 90 on 75 and 40 meters SSB. 
This gives the DSP system a running chance at cleaning things up. The K3 
has such a good receiver, all the extra input is not needed.


When telling others about my method, I am often met with a "deer in the 
headlights" look. It appears that a lot of ops have no clue about 
reducing noise by reducing the input to the receiver. Works for me and 
has for many many years - even well before DSP.


Using the LO - cut - Hi is just frosting on the cake.

Life is good!

Bill W2BLC K-Line


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Kevin Stover]

I knew I was right not to get one.
Thanks Wayne.:-)

On 4/27/2016 5:41 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Extrapolating from these two data points, it appears that Steppir reliability 
is inversely proportional to the distance from Eric's QTH.

Wayne


On Apr 27, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:


On Wed,4/27/2016 2:31 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

I've had my 4 El Steppir (20-10, plus 2 more fixed el for 6 m) up for over ten 
years 1 mile from the Ocean. Zero problems.

My 3-el (no trombones) has been up on a 120 ft tower about 12 miles N of Eric's 
QTH for about 7 years, also with no problems I can blame on the antenna (but 
several I can blame on myself). :) I find the antenna quite effective on all 
bands, 20-6M.

73, Jim K9YC








--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[mikerodgerske5gbc--- via Elecraft]

You should be using hi/lo cut. 
You can leave lo pretty much alone at 200 or 0.20. Adjust hi cut to your 
preference or qrm. If you have narrow filters, they will engage at the set 
points. 

Sometimes it's best to use ATT before rf gain. 

On low bands with static crashes its sometimes helpfull to raise lo cut. 

73
Mike R

Original post-

Subject: [Elecraft] Procedure: Setting the DSP filters for SSB
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

One thing on my K3 that's made me wonder if I'm doing it right is how to adjust 
the various filters and settings to accomplish two things.

1. During contests, how to best adjust to hear the station and not the guy 
2.5KHz away

2. When trying to hear the weak DX, not be blasted by that guy from Florida or 
Texas running a kilowatt.

I work SSB only at this point and haven't found any videos that show how to 
best adjust things.

Don Kiser - AC2EV
RARA Board member
VE Team Leader




Find me on "Zello", a walkie talkie or handi talkie type app. I'm listed as 
KE5GBC. I'm mostly on late at night. 
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Wayne Burdick]

Extrapolating from these two data points, it appears that Steppir reliability 
is inversely proportional to the distance from Eric's QTH. 

Wayne


On Apr 27, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Wed,4/27/2016 2:31 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
>> I've had my 4 El Steppir (20-10, plus 2 more fixed el for 6 m) up for over 
>> ten years 1 mile from the Ocean. Zero problems.
> 
> My 3-el (no trombones) has been up on a 120 ft tower about 12 miles N of 
> Eric's QTH for about 7 years, also with no problems I can blame on the 
> antenna (but several I can blame on myself). :) I find the antenna quite 
> effective on all bands, 20-6M.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Jim Brown]

Actually, Walt Maxwell is NOT the best source -- there are fundamental 
errors in it, which is why ARRL no longer publishes it.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,4/27/2016 9:58 AM, Mark, ars: KE6BB wrote:


The best source is "Reflections" by Walter Maxwell, W2DU, originally 
published as a series of articles in QST (difficult to read due to the 
poor scans) and then published by ARRL as a book.  The latest edition 
is "Reflections III" published by CQ Communications, but currently 
sold out.




If you really want to understand what is happening on a transmission 
line, how an ATU works, etc., then this is the book you should read. 
 Be warned, though, it is NOT an "easy read", but more of a "great 
study".  It requires a lot of thought and re-reading to absorb, but is 
well worth the effort.




Mark,


ars: KE6BB



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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,4/27/2016 2:31 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
I've had my 4 El Steppir (20-10, plus 2 more fixed el for 6 m) up for 
over ten years 1 mile from the Ocean. Zero problems.


My 3-el (no trombones) has been up on a 120 ft tower about 12 miles N of 
Eric's QTH for about 7 years, also with no problems I can blame on the 
antenna (but several I can blame on myself). :) I find the antenna quite 
effective on all bands, 20-6M.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Hank Garretson]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

Could you rebuild that rotary dipole as a fan?  A 40/20 fan would also give
> you 15. It's worth spending some time with EZNEC. Did you see the great
> work that W6SX did to multi-band his wires?  He showed it at an NCCC
> meeting. Dunno if it's online, but it's worth chasing down.
>

http://tinyurl.com/grbzufx

73,

Hank, W6SX
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Re: [Elecraft] Procedure: Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[Don Wilhelm]

Don,

Actually the answer to #1 is not difficult at all - use Hi Cut and Lo 
Cut when operating SSB.  The Width and Shift are best left for CW and 
digital modes.  Hi Cut and Lo Cut automatically change the center 
frequency.  Attempting to use Shift and Width in SSB can be a matter of 
frustration because when the width is changed, you must adjust shift to 
maintain intelligibility.


If the station interfering is on the high frequency side, you are in 
luck, you can use an extreme amount of Hi Cut to kill the interference 
and continue with your QSO.  The desired signal may lose a lot of its 
natural sound, but will still be intelligible.


If the offending signal is on the low frequency side, your luck may be 
more limited.  You cannot cut a lot of the low frequency side of the 
human voice and still maintain intelligibility.  If you get the Lo Cut 
much above 500Hz intelligibility will have a severe impact.


That is just the "way it is", the human voice needs frequencies in the 
500 to 1500Hz range for intelligibility, and there is not much that can 
be done about that fact.


For #2, if the strong station is taking over the AGC in your K3, the 
only cure is to add more narrow roofing filters.


I don't have any video references (and I don't find them to be of 
value), but try the techniques I have outlined above on your own station 
- you will hear the difference.
Even when there is no interference, see how much Hi Cut you can use 
while still maintaining intelligibility, then see how far you can cut 
the low side and still maintain intelligibility.  That will give you an 
understanding of how much you can cut.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 5:38 PM, ac...@frontier.com wrote:

One thing on my K3 that's made me wonder if I'm doing it right is how to adjust 
the various filters and settings to accomplish two things.

1. During contests, how to best adjust to hear the station and not the guy 
2.5KHz away

2. When trying to hear the weak DX, not be blasted by that guy from Florida or 
Texas running a kilowatt.




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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner (was Sherwood's receiver performance table updated)

[James Rodenkirch]

Annnd, at lower freqs/bands it means less losseven at QRPp or QRP 
levels, not that big a deal


Ken, et all: with my auto tuner at the base of my Inverted U (view my qrz dot 
com page for a wiring schema) and 120' of LMR 400 coax the maximum VSWR my KX3 
ever shows is 1.6:1 (from 160 through 15). THAT's my foci and resulting mantra 
"No auto tuner or tuner or whatever in the shack!!"



From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:52 PM
To: James Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner (was Sherwood's receiver 
performance table updated)


Title changed.  Hopefully I’ll get this in before Eric puts the ax down :^)



Your example is a perfect case: 120’ of LMR400 has 0.6 dB loss @ 14 MHz. With a 
5:1 SWR the additional loss is 0.75 dB.  Which is roughly the difference 
between 100 watts and 120 watts.



Noticeable on the air? I doubt it.



Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on a 
feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.



Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with it.



Now back to your regularly scheduled touch screen/IC7300 discussion…



Ken K6MR







From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:16
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



Ken - I thought my "note"/reply was focused on long runs with low SWR (as in, 
for instance, a 120' run of LMR-400 with an auto tuner at the base of the 
vertical or whatever antenna)..


Let's leave radial/ground shield and counterpoise discussion for another 
timesmiling!!


71.5/72 Jimm R.




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:10 PM
To: James Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


No problem. Yes, open wire line has its own problems. I was reacting to your 
note regarding using short runs of coax operated at high SWR. There is nothing 
inherently inefficient about doing so. Like any design it’s easy to run the 
numbers to determine what the actual losses are. Many times they are just too 
small to worry about. Especially in the case of verticals, the ground losses 
will be far higher unless you invest in an excellent radial/ground shield 
underneath it. The tuner can’t help that.



Ken K6MR







From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:01
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



Did not mean to sound argumentative, Ken.apologize if it came out that 
wayI am "involved" in this discussion becuz' of Don's initial post about 
new hams not understanding the advantageous aspects of open wire feed line



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Ken K6MR; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”



Jim:



Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential 

Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

My first "radio book", the 1941 ARRL Radio Amateur's Handbook, mentions SWR
in passing, but nearly everyone used open wire feed lines before WWII that,
with their moderately high impedances (450 to 600 ohms), had rather low loss
at any SWR one was likely to encounter. So Ham concerns with SWR were mostly
academic and limited to the antenna "theory" discussions. 

The need for shielding to minimize TVI and the huge amounts of very cheap
"war surplus" coaxial cable after WWII changed the feed line landscape very
quickly. The low impedance of that coax (50 ohms) meant that feed line
losses were no longer insignificant although it took a number of years for
coax to become the dominant feed line. By the 1950's QST was publishing
designs for homebrewing an SWR Meter several times a year. 

73, Ron AC7AC

 

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred
Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:35 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

Indeed!  I don't remember when the acronym "SWR" crept into the Amateur
lexicon, or we became concerned about it, but I'm pretty sure I was rapidly
approaching "OT Status" when it happened.  Early on, we link coupled to the
final tank inductor and any reactance in the feedline just changed the
resonant point which was adjustable of course.  With the advent of the
ubiquitous pi-network, we were just matching the impedance presented by the
feedline to the plate impedance of the PA's [a couple of K ohms or so].

There is probably no single thing in a ham station more misunderstood [or
mis-named] than "The Antenna Tuner."

73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

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Re: [Elecraft] Procedure: Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[Barry N1EU]

For ssb, you're only real hope is to adjust that interfering guy's
transmitter.

73, Barry N1EU

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:38 PM,  wrote:

> One thing on my K3 that's made me wonder if I'm doing it right is how to
> adjust the various filters and settings to accomplish two things.
>
> 1. During contests, how to best adjust to hear the station and not the guy
> 2.5KHz away
>
> 2. When trying to hear the weak DX, not be blasted by that guy from
> Florida or Texas running a kilowatt.
>
> I work SSB only at this point and haven't found any videos that show how
> to best adjust things.
>
> Don Kiser - AC2EV
> RARA Board member
> VE Team Leader
> 585-613-1035
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[Elecraft] Procedure: Setting the DSP filters for SSB

[ac2ev]

One thing on my K3 that's made me wonder if I'm doing it right is how to adjust 
the various filters and settings to accomplish two things.

1. During contests, how to best adjust to hear the station and not the guy 
2.5KHz away

2. When trying to hear the weak DX, not be blasted by that guy from Florida or 
Texas running a kilowatt.

I work SSB only at this point and haven't found any videos that show how to 
best adjust things.

Don Kiser - AC2EV
RARA Board member
VE Team Leader
585-613-1035
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

I've had my 4 El Steppir (20-10, plus 2 more fixed el for 6 m) up for over ten 
years 1 mile from the Ocean. Zero problems.


Great antenna.

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 4/27/2016 2:23 PM, Richard gillingham wrote:

I dunno, Mine (3 el Steppir) has been up since 2003 with no trouble whatsoever. 
  Less trouble than I've had with the Butternut vert I have for the lower bands.

Gil, W1RG

On Wed, 4/27/16, Wes  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner
  To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
  Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 4:23 PM
  
  I don't own one, but

  I've helped put one up for a fellow club member.  Based
  on
  his. and other members' experiences,
  if you like failures out of the box, and as
  an ongoing proposition, go for it.
  
  On 4/27/2016 1:08 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft

  wrote:
  > Along came SteppIR.
  
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

The modern combination of a fixed-tune filter plus that ATU means much better 
harmonic suppression than we got with the old pi or pi-L networks. That's not 
just "nice", it's generally needed here in the USA to meet modern FCC specs. 

And with digital logic flipping the knobs (or, rather the relays to do the same 
thing) the operator is completely isolated from the much more complex 
adjustments being made beyond the initial buzz of the relays before the tuning 
solution is stored. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:30 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

“One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older tube 
type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a sizable range 
for matching antennas.”

I remember my DX-20: that thing could load anything!

But I’m not going back. Being able to change bands instantly and completely 
hands free is a big advantage. I continue to make sacrifices to the Amplifier 
Gods asking for the KPA-1500  :^)

Ken K6MR



From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:23
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

True, the reasons for an ATU are not all associated with feedline loss.

One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older tube type 
transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a sizable range for 
matching antennas.  You would 'dip the plate' and adjust the 'loading' until 
you could feed the antenna efficiently.  With that, one did not have to pay 
much attention to SWR or the feedpoint impedance.  The PA output network did 
the job of matching the plate load resistance to whatever was connected to the 
network output (the antenna).

Today's transmitters need to see a low SWR because they were designed to 
operate into a 50 ohm load.  The adjustable elements of the transmitter output 
have been moved from the transmitter into the ATU because there is nothing to 
adjust in the transmitter other than the band and VFO.

If all your antennas present a 50 ohm load on each band - and across the span 
of those bands, no ATU is needed at all, but that requires many tuned antennas. 
 Not everyone has that luxury.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:52 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:
> Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on 
> a feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
> additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.
>
> Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
> tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with 
> it.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Richard gillingham]

I dunno, Mine (3 el Steppir) has been up since 2003 with no trouble whatsoever. 
  Less trouble than I've had with the Butternut vert I have for the lower 
bands.  

Gil, W1RG

On Wed, 4/27/16, Wes  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2016, 4:23 PM
 
 I don't own one, but
 I've helped put one up for a fellow club member.  Based
 on 
 his. and other members' experiences,
 if you like failures out of the box, and as 
 an ongoing proposition, go for it.
 
 On 4/27/2016 1:08 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
 wrote:
 > Along came SteppIR.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Fred Jensen]

Indeed!  I don't remember when the acronym "SWR" crept into the Amateur 
lexicon, or we became concerned about it, but I'm pretty sure I was 
rapidly approaching "OT Status" when it happened.  Early on, we link 
coupled to the final tank inductor and any reactance in the feedline 
just changed the resonant point which was adjustable of course.  With 
the advent of the ubiquitous pi-network, we were just matching the 
impedance presented by the feedline to the plate impedance of the PA's 
[a couple of K ohms or so].


There is probably no single thing in a ham station more misunderstood 
[or mis-named] than "The Antenna Tuner."


73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 4/27/2016 12:21 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:


One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older
tube type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a
sizable range for matching antennas.  You would 'dip the plate' and
adjust the 'loading' until you could feed the antenna efficiently.  With
that, one did not have to pay much attention to SWR or the feedpoint
impedance.  The PA output network did the job of matching the plate load
resistance to whatever was connected to the network output (the antenna).


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Wes]

I don't own one, but I've helped put one up for a fellow club member.  Based on 
his. and other members' experiences, if you like failures out of the box, and as 
an ongoing proposition, go for it.


On 4/27/2016 1:08 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Along came SteppIR.


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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

While this not about feedline loss.  But, Don brings up a point about antennas 
in general that cover all bands with a ~50 match.   I have only tried two.  The 
discone and the log periodic for 20 Meters and up.  The discone wins on 
footprint and the log winds on gain/directivity.  But is much bigger.  Along 
came SteppIR.
Mel, K6KBE


  From: Don Wilhelm 
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:21 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner
   
True, the reasons for an ATU are not all associated with feedline loss.

One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older 
tube type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a 
sizable range for matching antennas.  You would 'dip the plate' and 
adjust the 'loading' until you could feed the antenna efficiently.  With 
that, one did not have to pay much attention to SWR or the feedpoint 
impedance.  The PA output network did the job of matching the plate load 
resistance to whatever was connected to the network output (the antenna).

Today's transmitters need to see a low SWR because they were designed to 
operate into a 50 ohm load.  The adjustable elements of the transmitter 
output have been moved from the transmitter into the ATU because there 
is nothing to adjust in the transmitter other than the band and VFO.

If all your antennas present a 50 ohm load on each band - and across the 
span of those bands, no ATU is needed at all, but that requires many 
tuned antennas.  Not everyone has that luxury.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:52 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:
> Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on 
> a feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
> additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.
>
> Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
> tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with 
> it.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 on a Network

[Michael Walker]

Thanks

I'll do the IP version.  No big deal.

I do run a number of RS232 over IP devices already as well.  Until I get up
to the remote base with some spare time, I can do this change remotely.

I appreciate it.

Mike va3mw


On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Ken K6MR  wrote:

> Yes. Run one copy of the remote program as the host. On your client
> machine run the remote program and click “Connect”, put in the IP address
> and port.
>
> An easier way (though a bit more expensive) is to get a serial port
> server. I have the Startech 4 port server that connects me to two KPA500
> and two KAT500. They appear as normal serial ports on the client and you
> connect using the remote program.
>
> But if you’ve already got the computer on the host end the software is
> free :^)
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Michael Walker
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:26
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] KPA500 on a Network
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I likely have not spend enough time on this, but as I redo my remote base,
> I am finding that the I have the KPA500 RS232 port on one computer, but I
> operating on another computer.
>
> With its 'hosting' interface, is there a way to have the client software
> connect to the server software on a totally different IP address on the
> same network?
>
> Mike va3mw
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>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Ken K6MR]

“One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older
tube type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a
sizable range for matching antennas.”

I remember my DX-20: that thing could load anything!

But I’m not going back. Being able to change bands instantly and completely 
hands free is a big advantage. I continue to make sacrifices to the Amplifier 
Gods asking for the KPA-1500  :^)

Ken K6MR



From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:23
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

True, the reasons for an ATU are not all associated with feedline loss.

One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older
tube type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a
sizable range for matching antennas.  You would 'dip the plate' and
adjust the 'loading' until you could feed the antenna efficiently.  With
that, one did not have to pay much attention to SWR or the feedpoint
impedance.  The PA output network did the job of matching the plate load
resistance to whatever was connected to the network output (the antenna).

Today's transmitters need to see a low SWR because they were designed to
operate into a 50 ohm load.  The adjustable elements of the transmitter
output have been moved from the transmitter into the ATU because there
is nothing to adjust in the transmitter other than the band and VFO.

If all your antennas present a 50 ohm load on each band - and across the
span of those bands, no ATU is needed at all, but that requires many
tuned antennas.  Not everyone has that luxury.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:52 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:
> Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on 
> a feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
> additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.
>
> Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
> tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with 
> it.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Dayton Hamvention

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Yes, we will have Elecraft T-shirts. Come early!

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 4/27/2016 12:22 PM, Steven Stuckey wrote:

Will shirts be available for sale at Dayton this year?



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Re: [Elecraft] kxpa100 mobile/ portable mounting.

[Don Wilhelm]

With an "H" shaped wooden structure, why not drill holes in the wood 
which line up with the holes in the KXPA100?  No angle brackets needed.  
It may need some spacers to stop any side to side movement - easily 
fashioned of wood.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:38 PM, bill.va...@gmail.com wrote:

Not having the facilities to bend and drill angle brackets to mount my
kxpa; what are others using?

I am planning to put together an H shaped wooden structure, large enough on
the top for the amp and a power supply. The bottom of the H will probably
be empty space as I keep my KX3 and all accessories in a nice lunch bag.



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[Elecraft] Dayton Hamvention

[Steven Stuckey]

Will shirts be available for sale at Dayton this year?

-- 
​73​

Steven Stuckey - AC9GK - Indiana
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner

[Don Wilhelm]

True, the reasons for an ATU are not all associated with feedline loss.

One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is that older 
tube type transmitters had an adjustable output network which had a 
sizable range for matching antennas.  You would 'dip the plate' and 
adjust the 'loading' until you could feed the antenna efficiently.  With 
that, one did not have to pay much attention to SWR or the feedpoint 
impedance.  The PA output network did the job of matching the plate load 
resistance to whatever was connected to the network output (the antenna).


Today's transmitters need to see a low SWR because they were designed to 
operate into a 50 ohm load.  The adjustable elements of the transmitter 
output have been moved from the transmitter into the ATU because there 
is nothing to adjust in the transmitter other than the band and VFO.


If all your antennas present a 50 ohm load on each band - and across the 
span of those bands, no ATU is needed at all, but that requires many 
tuned antennas.  Not everyone has that luxury.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:52 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:

Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on a 
feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.

Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with it.



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Especially since the prior thread under this name has been closed.
73
Eric
Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 4/27/2016 11:25 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
But this discussion seems to have evolved into something difficult to relate 
to the thread title. You might want to change the title!


Phil W7OX

On 4/27/16 10:25 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:
Wowlots of good stuff emanating from this discussion - tnx to all for 
participating


For Jerry - there are other reasons for employing an ATU in the shack - e.g., 
using open wire line feed line from the antenna back to the xmtr.




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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 on a Network

[Ken K6MR]

Yes. Run one copy of the remote program as the host. On your client machine run 
the remote program and click “Connect”, put in the IP address and port.

An easier way (though a bit more expensive) is to get a serial port server. I 
have the Startech 4 port server that connects me to two KPA500 and two KAT500. 
They appear as normal serial ports on the client and you connect using the 
remote program.

But if you’ve already got the computer on the host end the software is free :^)

Ken K6MR



From: Michael Walker
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:26
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA500 on a Network






I likely have not spend enough time on this, but as I redo my remote base,
I am finding that the I have the KPA500 RS232 port on one computer, but I
operating on another computer.

With its 'hosting' interface, is there a way to have the client software
connect to the server software on a totally different IP address on the
same network?

Mike va3mw
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline loss w/wo tuner (was Sherwood's receiver performance table updated)

[Ken K6MR]

Title changed.  Hopefully I’ll get this in before Eric puts the ax down :^)

Your example is a perfect case: 120’ of LMR400 has 0.6 dB loss @ 14 MHz. With a 
5:1 SWR the additional loss is 0.75 dB.  Which is roughly the difference 
between 100 watts and 120 watts.

Noticeable on the air? I doubt it.

Somewhere in the past hams have become obsessed with SWR.  With a 2:1 SWR on a 
feedline with a matched loss of 3.0 dB (which is a bit extreme) there is an 
additional 0.35 dB of loss. It’s just not big enough to worry about.

Of course now that we all have solid state finals 2:1 can be a problem. But a 
tuner in the shack is a completely reasonable and efficient way to deal with it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled touch screen/IC7300 discussion…

Ken K6MR



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:16
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Ken - I thought my "note"/reply was focused on long runs with low SWR (as in, 
for instance, a 120' run of LMR-400 with an auto tuner at the base of the 
vertical or whatever antenna)..


Let's leave radial/ground shield and counterpoise discussion for another 
timesmiling!!


71.5/72 Jimm R.




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:10 PM
To: James Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


No problem. Yes, open wire line has its own problems. I was reacting to your 
note regarding using short runs of coax operated at high SWR. There is nothing 
inherently inefficient about doing so. Like any design it’s easy to run the 
numbers to determine what the actual losses are. Many times they are just too 
small to worry about. Especially in the case of verticals, the ground losses 
will be far higher unless you invest in an excellent radial/ground shield 
underneath it. The tuner can’t help that.



Ken K6MR







From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:01
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



Did not mean to sound argumentative, Ken.apologize if it came out that 
wayI am "involved" in this discussion becuz' of Don's initial post about 
new hams not understanding the advantageous aspects of open wire feed line



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Ken K6MR; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”



Jim:



Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr 

[Elecraft] kxpa100 mobile/ portable mounting.

[bill.va3ol]

Not having the facilities to bend and drill angle brackets to mount my
kxpa; what are others using?

I am planning to put together an H shaped wooden structure, large enough on
the top for the amp and a power supply. The bottom of the H will probably
be empty space as I keep my KX3 and all accessories in a nice lunch bag.
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Re: [Elecraft] Updated K2?

[Don Wilhelm]

Just a quick note on using the KDSP2 filtering --
For best overall operating (especially in crowded band conditions), it 
is always better to use XFIL to narrow the IF filter first, then use 
AFIL to add the KDSP2 filtering if necessary.


That keeps the level of strong adjacent signals to a minimum and 
prevents overload of the AGC (and the resulting receiver de-sense).


I do see several operators who use only the DSP filtering, leaving the 
preceding IF bandwidth 'wide open' - not the best way when the bands are 
crowded.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 2:23 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
I think it's good once you get it adjusted. Adjusting it is a bit 
complex.


You might want to look at the KDSP2 manual 
http://www.elecraft.com/manual/KDSP2_A1.pdf  How to operate it starts 
on p. 23 or so.


Once it's set up, I'd not want to use my K2 without it.



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Please.

I'm always interested in antennas, since I need to figure something out 
here in the not distant future.


Laboratory measurements not so much, and the touch-screen debate is a 
religious argument.


73 -- Lynn

On 4/27/2016 11:25 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
But this discussion seems to have evolved into something difficult to 
relate to the thread title. You might want to change the title! 



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Phil Wheeler]

But this discussion seems to have evolved into 
something difficult to relate to the thread title. 
You might want to change the title!


Phil W7OX

On 4/27/16 10:25 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:

Wowlots of good stuff emanating from this discussion - tnx to all for 
participating

For Jerry - there are other reasons for employing an ATU in the shack - e.g., 
using open wire line feed line from the antenna back to the xmtr.

_
From: Jerry 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:10 AM
To: Ken K6MR
Cc: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

I always thought the ATU in the shack was specifically to allow operation where 
there's an impedance mismatch (not necessarily non-resonant) specifically to 
protect solid state equipment from the high voltages that can be present.

Obviously an antenna system can be resonant and still not match impedance of 
the feed line and/or Radio.

Sent from my iPad


On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:36 AM, Ken K6MR  wrote:

“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”

Jim:

Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.

On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.

Ken K6MR






From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.


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Re: [Elecraft] Updated K2?

[Phil Wheeler]

I think it's good once you get it adjusted. 
Adjusting it is a bit complex.


You might want to look at the KDSP2 manual 
http://www.elecraft.com/manual/KDSP2_A1.pdf  How 
to operate it starts on p. 23 or so.


Once it's set up, I'd not want to use my K2 
without it.


73, Phil W7OX

On 4/27/16 10:22 AM, aver...@mchsi.com wrote:






 I just noticed that the K2 is adv. "Now with DSP".How good is the DSP?
George, K4EOR
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[James Rodenkirch]

Ken - I thought my "note"/reply was focused on long runs with low SWR (as in, 
for instance, a 120' run of LMR-400 with an auto tuner at the base of the 
vertical or whatever antenna)..


Let's leave radial/ground shield and counterpoise discussion for another 
timesmiling!!


71.5/72 Jimm R.




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:10 PM
To: James Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


No problem. Yes, open wire line has its own problems. I was reacting to your 
note regarding using short runs of coax operated at high SWR. There is nothing 
inherently inefficient about doing so. Like any design it’s easy to run the 
numbers to determine what the actual losses are. Many times they are just too 
small to worry about. Especially in the case of verticals, the ground losses 
will be far higher unless you invest in an excellent radial/ground shield 
underneath it. The tuner can’t help that.



Ken K6MR







From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:01
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



Did not mean to sound argumentative, Ken.apologize if it came out that 
wayI am "involved" in this discussion becuz' of Don's initial post about 
new hams not understanding the advantageous aspects of open wire feed line



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Ken K6MR; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”



Jim:



Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Updated K2?

[Don Wilhelm]

George,

The KDSP2 option has been available for the K2 for several years now.

It is audio DSP and offers quite good DSP filters as well as a denoiser 
and a Real Time Clock. It is not "DSP" which includes modulation and 
demodulation like in the K3(S) or the KX3.


If you find the K2 IF filters not adequate for your needs, you may wish 
to consider the KDSP2.
It occupies the same space as the KAF2, so both cannot be in the same K2 
at the same time.


You may download the KDSP2 manual to see more about it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2016 1:22 PM, aver...@mchsi.com wrote:

 I just noticed that the K2 is adv. "Now with DSP".How good is the DSP?



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Ken K6MR]

No problem. Yes, open wire line has its own problems. I was reacting to your 
note regarding using short runs of coax operated at high SWR. There is nothing 
inherently inefficient about doing so. Like any design it’s easy to run the 
numbers to determine what the actual losses are. Many times they are just too 
small to worry about. Especially in the case of verticals, the ground losses 
will be far higher unless you invest in an excellent radial/ground shield 
underneath it. The tuner can’t help that.

Ken K6MR



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:01
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

Did not mean to sound argumentative, Ken.apologize if it came out that 
wayI am "involved" in this discussion becuz' of Don's initial post about 
new hams not understanding the advantageous aspects of open wire feed line



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Ken K6MR; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


"P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share"



Jim:



Google "transmission line bounce diagram". This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It's been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[James Rodenkirch]

I agree the theory works, Ken, and your reference of/to John Devoldere's book 
is timely - it sets on my desk right nowI'll rummage through the 
appropriate chapter(s) to ensure I am not "out on a limb" here71.5/72 de 
K9JWV


P.S. I've stayed away from open wire line simply 'cuz a) difficult to run long 
lengths at my QTH and b) can't avoid running it very close to metal at three 
points 'tween the base of my antenna and the shack.


P.S.S. I stated earlier I experience .2 delta in measured VSWR at the input to 
the tuner and at the coax end plugged in to my KX3 -make .4 db delta, depending 
on the band in use...





From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 11:31 AM
To: James Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


But the theory works whether you have open wire line or coax: the additional 
loss due to SWR on the feedline is only a function of the matched feedline 
loss. There is a good graph in ON4UNs book (and probably others) that shows the 
additional loss caused by SWR vs. matched line loss. For example, a 5:1 SWR on 
a line with 0.5 dB matched loss results in an additional 0.6 dB of loss. The 
type of feedline is immaterial.  Is 0.6 dB worth installing a tuner at the 
antenna given the added complexity? Maybe. Maybe not. It’s all a matter of $/dB.



Ken K6MR







From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 09:38
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”



Jim:



Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[James Rodenkirch]

Did not mean to sound argumentative, Ken.apologize if it came out that 
wayI am "involved" in this discussion becuz' of Don's initial post about 
new hams not understanding the advantageous aspects of open wire feed line



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Ken K6MR; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


"P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share"



Jim:



Google "transmission line bounce diagram". This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It's been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Ken K6MR]

But the theory works whether you have open wire line or coax: the additional 
loss due to SWR on the feedline is only a function of the matched feedline 
loss. There is a good graph in ON4UNs book (and probably others) that shows the 
additional loss caused by SWR vs. matched line loss. For example, a 5:1 SWR on 
a line with 0.5 dB matched loss results in an additional 0.6 dB of loss. The 
type of feedline is immaterial.  Is 0.6 dB worth installing a tuner at the 
antenna given the added complexity? Maybe. Maybe not. It’s all a matter of $/dB.

Ken K6MR



From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 09:38
To: Ken K6MR; 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


"P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share"



Jim:



Google "transmission line bounce diagram". This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It's been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[James Rodenkirch]

Wowlots of good stuff emanating from this discussion - tnx to all for 
participating

For Jerry - there are other reasons for employing an ATU in the shack - e.g., 
using open wire line feed line from the antenna back to the xmtr. 

_
From: Jerry 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:10 AM
To: Ken K6MR
Cc: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

I always thought the ATU in the shack was specifically to allow operation where 
there's an impedance mismatch (not necessarily non-resonant) specifically to 
protect solid state equipment from the high voltages that can be present.

Obviously an antenna system can be resonant and still not match impedance of 
the feed line and/or Radio.

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:36 AM, Ken K6MR  wrote:
>
> “P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
> make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
> multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
> share”
>
> Jim:
>
> Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
> proven by mathematics.
>
> On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
> lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
> theory.
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jim Rodenkirch
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
> "It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.
>
> If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
> of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
> in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.
>
> P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
> make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
> multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
> share
>
> Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
> with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
> the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
> "seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
> operating on 160 through 20 meters.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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[Elecraft] Updated K2?

[averill]

I just noticed that the K2 is adv. "Now with DSP".How good is the DSP?
George, K4EOR
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone


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[Elecraft] KPA500 on a Network

[Michael Walker]

I likely have not spend enough time on this, but as I redo my remote base,
I am finding that the I have the KPA500 RS232 port on one computer, but I
operating on another computer.

With its 'hosting' interface, is there a way to have the client software
connect to the server software on a totally different IP address on the
same network?

Mike va3mw
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Re: [Elecraft] JT65 with KX3

[Michael Walker]

Before you blame the radio for drifting, how do you know your sound card
isn't drifting?

The problem looks the same.  There are many tests you can run when
referencing WWV and watching the drift.

This is one of the  many tools:
http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/speclab/frqcalib.htm

Or:  https://www.stu2.net/wiki/index.php/Calibrate_Sound_Card

Mike va3mw


On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Edward R Cole  wrote:

> Don and Brian:
>
> I had good luck just using my XG3 as signal source for the temp
> compensation on 50-MHz.
> I did monitor freq on my prof. counter.
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>
> From: Don Wilhelm 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] JT65 with KX3
> Message-ID: <6428dc69-b0f8-d313-c6e1-c1350236f...@embarqmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Brian,
>
> The XG50 is not really expensive and is a good stable source.  It is
> 'cheap' compared to the frustration factor involved with trying to use
> other methods.
> If you have access to an instrument lab with highly stable signal
> sources in the 50MHz range, then you are all set, but most are not so
> fortunate.
>
> The problem in justifying the price is that it is seldom used once you
> do the KX3 calibration.  Maybe we should create a 'ham sharing XG50'
> network to allow each to pay a portion of the total cost of the XG50.
> That would work fine if you have several locals with a KX3 - check with
> your local club.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> "Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
> dubus...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] JT65 with KX3

[Edward R Cole]

Don and Brian:

I had good luck just using my XG3 as signal source for the temp 
compensation on 50-MHz.

I did monitor freq on my prof. counter.

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Don Wilhelm 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] JT65 with KX3
Message-ID: <6428dc69-b0f8-d313-c6e1-c1350236f...@embarqmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Brian,

The XG50 is not really expensive and is a good stable source.  It is
'cheap' compared to the frustration factor involved with trying to use
other methods.
If you have access to an instrument lab with highly stable signal
sources in the 50MHz range, then you are all set, but most are not so
fortunate.

The problem in justifying the price is that it is seldom used once you
do the KX3 calibration.  Maybe we should create a 'ham sharing XG50'
network to allow each to pay a portion of the total cost of the XG50.
That would work fine if you have several locals with a KX3 - check with
your local club.

73,
Don W3FPR



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Mark , ars : KE6BB via Elecraft]

RE:  “P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 
feetmake it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”

The best source is "Reflections" by Walter Maxwell, W2DU, originally published 
as a series of articles in QST (difficult to read due to the poor scans) and 
then published by ARRL as a book.  The latest edition is "Reflections III" 
published by CQ Communications, but currently sold out.

If you really want to understand what is happening on a transmission line, how 
an ATU works, etc., then this is the book you should read.  Be warned, though, 
it is NOT an "easy read", but more of a "great study".  It requires a lot of 
thought and re-reading to absorb, but is well worth the effort.


Mark,
ars:  KE6BB


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[James Rodenkirch]

It is not "the principle behind the use of open  wire feed line," Ken IF, I 
place an antenna auto tuner at the base of, for instance, a vertical and feed 
the tuner with low loss coax


I understand the use of open wire feed line and an ATU prior to attaching to 
the xmtrBUT...see above - works as well, if not better 'cuz I don't have to 
worry about the open wire feed line running too close to metal objects...




From: Ken K6MR 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM
To: Jim Rodenkirch; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


"P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share"



Jim:



Google "transmission line bounce diagram". This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.



On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It's been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.



Ken K6MR












From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated



"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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[Elecraft] Feedline Loss With Mismatched Loads

[Jim Brown]

Loss in a feedline due to mismatch can easily be computed by several 
means if the antenna feedpoint impedance and the feedline loss vs. 
frequency and length are known. Those means include:


TLW, a simple Windoze program by N6BV, retired editor of the ARRL 
Antenna Book, and included on the CDROM that comes with the Antenna Book.


ZPlots, an Excel spreadsheet by Dan, AC6LA.

TLA, a simple Windoze program by AC6LA. Both of Dan's programs are 
freeware, google his call to find his website.


SimSmith, an excellent freeware Smith Chart program by AE6TY. It runs in 
Java, so is cross platform.


Data to plug into these programs can be exported from EZNEC and other 
antenna modeling programs. Data for real antennas can be measured using 
good quality vector impedance analyzers (they must provide R + jX, or Z 
and the phase angle of Z).


If used correctly, all of these programs will provide correct answers. 
That can be a big IF -- it's the old GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) rule.


It IS, for example, good engineering practice to use a low loss line 
that is mismatched to an antenna with a tuner in the shack IF the line 
is short enough, and the line loss is low enough.  Phil Salas, AD5X, 
published a method for doing exactly this, using 50 ft or so of 1/2-in 
hard line to feed a 43 ft vertical.


The technique of using high impedance open wire line to feed a dipole of 
random length is another example, but I consider it no longer good 
engineering practice because it is not practical to choke it to reject 
receive noise. Off-center fed antennas have the same problem, no matter 
how they are fed. A major advantage of coax-fed, resonant antennas is 
that they CAN be choked.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,4/27/2016 8:36 AM, Ken K6MR wrote:

“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”

Jim:

Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.

On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.

Ken K6MR






From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

  If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration

[WILLIS COOKE via Elecraft]

I found a Cavalier King Charles figure stamp, a "This Envelope Sealed with Dog 
Slobber" stamp and a "I'd Rather be Flying" stamp, several Ink Pads and a 
re-inking roller in Black.  That is only in one drawer. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke,

  From: Ron D'Eau Claire 
 To: 'Clay Autery' ; 'Elecraft Reflector' 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration
   
For the Transmitter Gain calibration, all you need is a decent dummy load.
The LP-100A is not a dummy load. My 20-year old inexpensive MFJ dummy load
does a good job for that. (But note it has never been abused, such as
running power into it until it gets hot or smells.) A well designed dummy
load will have very little reactance from stray capacitance or inductance.
That leaves only the value of the resistive element, which you can check
with your DMM. It's the resistive element that is most susceptible to damage
from overheating it, just like any other resistor.  

For calibrating the wattmeter in your K3S beyond the factory setting,
whatever makes you happy is perfect. There is no operational or performance
advantage to "improving" the factory settings. The LP-100A claims 3% power
display accuracy which is much better than most (if the claims are true).
For example, the ARRL lab is quoted in their manual saying "They specify
their measurement error for power as +/- 5%, and for PEP power, +/- 8%."
Note the +/- meaning the power error may vary by 10% for constant carrier
and 16% PEP. Those are much more typical values for good, even lab quality
power measurement equipment.  

73, Ron AC7AC 

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Clay
Autery
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 6:50 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration

Would the LP-100A meet the accuracy/precision requirements to do the power
cals outlined in the K3s Manual?

If not, please supply recommendation for one that will do the job
adequately.

Thanks!

--
__
Clay Autery, KG5LKV
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Ken K6MR]

“P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share”

Jim:

Google “transmission line bounce diagram”. This is a simple concept easily 
proven by mathematics.

On a practical level, this is the concept behind the use of open wire feed 
lines. It’s been done for decades. The type of feed line does not change the 
theory.

Ken K6MR






From: Jim Rodenkirch
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 06:21
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is.

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters.



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft]

> On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:31 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote

> Adam adds a lot to the discussion.  The 7300 is actually a "hybrid"
> DSR ... direct down conversion being used to drive the SDR "back end"
> typical of Icom's current generation of transceivers.  In essence,
> the direct sampling front end replaces the traditional analog up-
> conversion front end and is responsible for a much "cleaner" (less
> phase noise, etc.) transceiver.  The selectivity, AGC and features
> are derived from the 36 KHz DSP "back end".



Joe, I know this thread was closed earlier today, but I just wanted to clarify 
that the IC-7300 is a "pure" direct-sampling SDR. The architecture that you 
described is more in line with direct-conversion SDRs such as the KX3. 
I also asked myself why ICOM did not go the extra mile and provided more than 
one receiver on the IC-7300 since the whole spectrum is available on a 
direct-sampling SDR. The only reason that occurred to me is that its FPGA is 
not big enough to handled/process the stream of data arriving from the ADC that 
is necessary to produce more than one of receiver (slices).

73,
Robert-KP4Y/W4

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Doug Person via Elecraft]

My thoughts on the IC-7300 after using it for several days:

1. The tuner is a lot more capable than 3:1. Much better than older Icoms.

2. Achieving correct viewing angle can almost always be corrected by a 
little Shop 101.


3. The height of the display is limited to the size of the screen and 
that by the size of the radio. That said - the screen is a wonder of 
organization of things needed to control a complex system


4. Two antenna ports, video output, receive only antenna port are all 
the things you will see in the next step-up model


5. Touch screens allow a hierarchical and updateable organization of 
functions and properties - this is a fundamental principle of user 
interface design


6. Sit down with say a TS-590SG (Same basic price) and operate for an 
hour.  Then repeat with IC-7300.  You'll instantly see a 20th century 
user interface and a 21st century user interface. The IC-7300 will blow 
you a way.  So much information at your fingertips.  The IC-7300 is a 
wonderful example of how 21st century technology pervades everything. 
(Get used to it)


Fortunately, I have two separate operating positions.  The K-Line 
occupies my main position.  Stocking the second position is always fun.  
Been through K2 (best), TS-450, IC-746, TS-590SG, FTdx-1200 (Nice rig) 
and now the IC-7300.  The 7300 leaves all the other entry level radios 
in the dust.  It has placed a strong stack in the ground of 
technological advancement and will be the pivotal product for the next 
10 to 20 years.  Just like the K2 was when it hit the market.  Even more 
like the K3 which was *truly* a pivotal product.


Doug -- K0DXV





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[Elecraft] FS: Elecraft T1 Automatic Antenna Tuner

[Dan Boardman]

Only used it a few times - 9/10 in nice condition - non smoker



$135 shipped



Dan - NB1C

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Thanks for the link, Buck.  I had not checked Adam's site since the
7300 became generally available.

Adam adds a lot to the discussion.  The 7300 is actually a "hybrid"
DSR ... direct down conversion being used to drive the SDR "back end"
typical of Icom's current generation of transceivers.  In essence,
the direct sampling front end replaces the traditional analog up-
conversion front end and is responsible for a much "cleaner" (less
phase noise, etc.) transceiver.  The selectivity, AGC and features
are derived from the 36 KHz DSP "back end".

All in all very smart design as it leverages Icom's experience and
design costs.  It also explains the lack of dual receive as that
would have required a second, frequency agile "IF DSP" or complete
receiver chain like the KRX3.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/27/2016 8:28 AM, Buck via Elecraft wrote:

Very comprehensive review of the 7300 explaining how it handles ADC
overload at

http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7300/7300notes.pdf

K4ia
Buck
Honor Roll 335
8BDXCC



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Bert Craig]

Why can't we let the folks who are engaged in the discussion, as well as those 
who find it not only interesting, but very relevant to Elecraft, enjoy the 
discussion. That's precisely what the delete key is for. 

Imagine coming across a roundtable QSO and asking the participants to cease 
their discussion rather than just QSY. Strange times these are.

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI 

Sent from my android device.

-Original Message-
From: Jim Sheldon 
To: Gene Gabry , "'Joe Subich, W4TV'" , 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 8:42
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

  Geez guys, I thought this was the Elecraft List.  Getting a tired 
finger hitting the delete button on all the IC 7300 ICOM discussion 
totally irrelevant to any Elecraft information.  I'm sure Eric would 
have stepped in and closed this thread long ago if they weren't all 
extremely busy getting ready for Dayton.

I, and many others, have absolutely no interest in extolling the virtues 
of the IC 7300.

Jim - W0EB

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Dave Cole]

I'm with you Clay, the very last thing I want is a touch screen, which
is always dirty.  

The concept of a touch screen rig is interesting though, perhaps a
touch screen that is separate from the rig would be good...  Soft Keys
you can program, thin, wireless, now that I could get behind.  Maybe
controlled via a smart device, like a phone or pad.  Bluetooth
connected...
-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Tue, 2016-04-26 at 17:01 -0500, Clay Autery wrote:
> Yep... Jim has it correct
> 
> I regularly use Marker A and B to set frequencies.  If I am doing it
> right, it sets to the exact frequency even though the P3 only
> shows
> to the 10 Hz resolution.
> 
> And I don't have to put fingerprints on my screen/bezel...
> 
> Why ANYONE wants to touch the screen they are VIEWING data on escapes
> me
> COMPLETELY.  I want my screen ABSOLUTELY clean...
> 
> __
> Clay Autery, KG5LKV
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
> 
> On 4/26/2016 3:29 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue,4/26/2016 1:12 PM, James D. (Jimmy) Walker, Jr. via Elecraft
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > What interests me most in the IC-7300 is the ability for direct
> > > entry
> > > of a frequency by touching the waterfall display.
> > To the accuracy of the width of your finger. :)   I looked at the
> > 7300
> > at Visalia. Nice LOOKING radio at an entry level price.
> > 
> > > 
> > >   The P-3 does not offer that feature,
> > While it doesn't have a touch screen, direct frequency entry can be
> > done by moving the marker to the blip on the screen and pushing the
> > Menu button. And to FAR greater precision.
> > 
> > 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Jim Rodenkirch]

"It all depends" is/was the premise for my reply, Don.

 If new and old hams don't understand the potential problems with long runs
of coax to/from an antenna they want to operate on multiple bands and an ATU
in the shack they will be surprised at how inefficient their system is. 

P.S. I don't subscribe to the notion that quality coax runs of < 150 feet
make it "ok" to have the ATU in the shack while operating an antenna on
multiple bandswhat technical evidence of that posit do you have to
share 

Note 1: I had a 43' vertical with top loading wires in a NORD-style config
with my external ATU at the base of the vertical and 120' of coax back to
the shack  never saw a VSWR delta of more than .2 between what was
"seen" at the input to the tuner and what was "seen" at the xmtr while
operating on 160 through 20 meters. 



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sherwood-s-receiver-performance-table-updated-tp7616652p7616802.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks - In the interest of relieving our list readers from severe single topic 
email overload, let's end this thread now.


While an interesting topic with lots of good comments, its had a -huge- number 
of postings. It is time to give it a rest.


(I would have jumped in earlier yesterday, but I was extremely busy at my other 
job - making the best all around radios in the world :-)


73,

Eric
Elecraft list moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 4/27/2016 5:26 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


On 4/26/2016 11:48 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:
> You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having
> more bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling
> architecture.

The real problem is not enough bits.  DSR proponents continue to ignore
the sensitivity vs. overload trade-off.  They tout their "top of the
list" IMD performance and "multiple slice receiver" capabilities while
completely hiding the fact that those items can only be accomplished by
reducing sensitivity some 30 dB compared to a conventional superhet
receiver in the presence of strong signals.



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Jim Sheldon]

 Geez guys, I thought this was the Elecraft List.  Getting a tired 
finger hitting the delete button on all the IC 7300 ICOM discussion 
totally irrelevant to any Elecraft information.  I'm sure Eric would 
have stepped in and closed this thread long ago if they weren't all 
extremely busy getting ready for Dayton.


I, and many others, have absolutely no interest in extolling the virtues 
of the IC 7300.


Jim - W0EB

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Buck via Elecraft]

Very comprehensive review of the 7300 explaining how it handles ADC 
overload at


http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7300/7300notes.pdf

K4ia
Buck
Honor Roll 335
8BDXCC

On 4/27/2016 8:17 AM, Gene Gabry wrote:

On 4/26/2016 10:15 PM, Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft wrote:

Just that you know, K9CT has one of the finest contesting station in

  > the US. He has switched to direct-sampling SDRs (Flex-6700). Just ask  >
him if this architecture is 5 years away from being competitive.


While I do not know for sure, I suspect K9CT is using bandpass filters and

stubs to prevent inter-station interference in his multi-multi operation
just >as he did when he used conventional transceivers.  With properly
designed bandpass filters, stubs and the preselectors in his 6700s he's not
likely to >have a severe overload issue unless he happens to be close to
some high power AM stations (on 160 meters) and even then indications are
that a good >highpass filter and 10 to 15 dB of attenuation will resolve the
problems with a 16 bit ADC.

Yes, I can confirm K9CT uses BP filters on his 6700's. His main reason for
switching to mostly 6700's at his contest station was for the "simplicity"
of being able to operate SO2R or multi -2  without the need for all the
access cables and extras required with the K3 set up. The WiFi ability that
comes with the Maestro made networking wireless as well. I believe he still
uses a K3S or two at his home station and uses K3S's on DXpeditions.

There are conditions and reasons where each platform can win, with proper
configurations, tools  and expectations.

Gene, N9TF
Society of Midwest Contesters


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/26/2016 11:48 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:
> You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having
> more bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling
> architecture.

The real problem is not enough bits.  DSR proponents continue to ignore
the sensitivity vs. overload trade-off.  They tout their "top of the
list" IMD performance and "multiple slice receiver" capabilities while
completely hiding the fact that those items can only be accomplished by
reducing sensitivity some 30 dB compared to a conventional superhet
receiver in the presence of strong signals.

I have nothing against direct sampling receivers and I'm intrigued by
the performance/features balance Icom made - to the extent that I'm
likely to replace the IC-706mkIIg I use as an Icom proxy in my CAT test
bench with a 7300 once the "new" price moderates.


But, there is another issue that has not been discussed in anything
I've read so far, ultimate filter rejection. Flex, Kenwood, and
Elecraft have filtering that runs in the 100 db region, or a little
better.


Top of the line rigs with dual (distributed) filtering may reach the
100 dB region.  However, that is not the case in all rigs.  The IC-7300
is competitive with rigs such as the Yaesu FTdx3000 (80 dB), Icom
IC-7600 (78 dB), Icom 706 mkIIg (78dB) or K2 (80 dB) and not all that
far from the TS-590 (92 dB) or TS-990 (90 dB).  Remember, most of the
crystal filters flatten out around -80 to-90 dB (with tighter filters
having even less ultimate rejection and - see the K3/Inrad curves) -
circuit layout often causes leakage above those levels in many rigs.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/26/2016 11:48 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:

Joe,
I agree with you basically. I think it's just the manor in which you
state the problem.

You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having
more bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling
architecture. I think the radio companies just can't get 24 bit ADCs
fast enough to do direct sampling at commodity pricing which would allow
direct sampling with out the baggage. If I can do 24 bit sampling and
high and low pass filtering, I can simplify receiver design AND have a
an acceptable dynamic range. Multiple instances of DSP processing of the
24 bit samples will allow as many virtual receivers, slices, as
processor power will allow. My guess is we are on the verge of getting
to where we would like to be.

Flex is using a 16 bit ADC and I'm not sure what the 7300 is using,
but I infer it, too, is 16 bit. I do believe that the Elecraft
architectures are all based on 24 bit sampling. The Elecraft designs
should be tolerant to serious environmental abuse short of a local
thunderstorm.

Our comments reflect a rigorous tech discussion. But, there is
another issue that has not been discussed in anything I've read so far,
ultimate filter rejection. Flex, Kenwood, and Elecraft have filtering
that runs in the 100 db region, or a little better. I saw that the
IC-7300 is about 20 db worse. What that means if you are a CW operator,
serious or otherwise, and there is a pile up on a DX station, a contest,
or just a really busy weekend, you may have problems from strong
stations not too far away while you are trying to work an S1-3 station.
SSB operators have other problems like splatter and no amount of superb
design will fix that.

I'm pleased there is a vigorous discussion on the new radios. It
helps push the designers and the technology.

73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 4/26/2016 10:10:32 PM an
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated


On 4/26/2016 8:08 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:

Everybody is ignoring W4TV's 800lb Gorilla, ADC overload.


I can't take credit for that ... the warning comes from some of the
best RF designers in the world.  Direct sampling receivers are very
good in controlled situations.  Unfortunately, those who are used to
analog superhetrodyne receivers do not recognize the symptoms of ADC
overload/overflow in many cases.

The overflow can show up as an occasional click or pop if the number
and strength of signals continues to increase conditions go down hill
very rapidly.  The best 16 bit ADC based SDRs can and do show very
significant overload issues when run without effective front end
bandpass filtering in high RF environments (160 meters near AM BC
stations, 40 meters in Europe, 160 meters in New England during a
contest, etc.).

One can apply filtering (which Icom seems to have done in the 7300),
apply attenuation (which Flex seems to have done in the 6000 series)
or both.  Filtering limits the number and width of "slice receivers"
while attenuation kills weak signal performance.

I find Icom's implementation interesting in that they are using the
technology as a single band, single channel receiver (they could have
added Dual RX within the same band at 

Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Gene Gabry]

On 4/26/2016 10:15 PM, Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft wrote:
> Just that you know, K9CT has one of the finest contesting station in
 > the US. He has switched to direct-sampling SDRs (Flex-6700). Just ask  >
him if this architecture is 5 years away from being competitive.

>While I do not know for sure, I suspect K9CT is using bandpass filters and
stubs to prevent inter-station interference in his multi-multi operation
just >as he did when he used conventional transceivers.  With properly
designed bandpass filters, stubs and the preselectors in his 6700s he's not
likely to >have a severe overload issue unless he happens to be close to
some high power AM stations (on 160 meters) and even then indications are
that a good >highpass filter and 10 to 15 dB of attenuation will resolve the
problems with a 16 bit ADC.

Yes, I can confirm K9CT uses BP filters on his 6700's. His main reason for
switching to mostly 6700's at his contest station was for the "simplicity"
of being able to operate SO2R or multi -2  without the need for all the
access cables and extras required with the K3 set up. The WiFi ability that
comes with the Maestro made networking wireless as well. I believe he still
uses a K3S or two at his home station and uses K3S's on DXpeditions. 

There are conditions and reasons where each platform can win, with proper
configurations, tools  and expectations.

Gene, N9TF
Society of Midwest Contesters 


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Re: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration

[Clay Autery]

Thanks, Jim.  :)

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Clay Autery, KG5LKV
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/27/2016 12:59 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Tue,4/26/2016 6:49 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Would the LP-100A meet the accuracy/precision requirements to do the
>> power cals outlined in the K3s Manual?
>
> I own one, with two couplers for my SO2R station. It's a fine product,
> and at least some years ago, was used at Elecraft for production
> testing. Pro quality dummy loads are among the things I buy at ham
> flea markets.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> __
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> Message delivered to caut...@montac.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration

[Clay Autery]

K3S Manual, Revision A, May 26, 2015, page 52, left column, half way down...

"If desired, the [TUNE] power readings can be calibrated, This must be
done at 5.0 W, 50 W (K3s/100 only), and 1.00 mW.

IF you read this page, you find that the procedure requires a 50-W
capable dummy load (minimum), an "accurate" wattmeter, and for the
"Milliwatt-meter Calibration", "an accurate RF voltmeter".

__
Clay Autery, KG5LKV
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 4/26/2016 10:47 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Clay,
>
> I see nothing in the K3 manual about Tune PWR calibration.
> There is the wattmeter calibration for which you need a good 50 ohm
> dummy load and a wattmeter that you can trust.
> The other is the TX Gain Calibration which needs only a good 50 ohm
> dummy load.
>
> If those are both done, then your TUNE PWR setting will be accurate.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/26/2016 11:15 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Not referring to the XMTR Gain cal...  talking about the Tune PWR
>> cals...
>>
>>
>

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[Elecraft] SOLD!!! Re: FS: Green Heron RT-21pp controller

[Jorge Diez CX6VM]

Hello

The controller is sold

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

Enviado desde mi iPhone

> El 21 abr. 2016, a las 09:31, Jorge Diez - CX6VM  
> escribió:
> 
> Hello
> 
> I have a Green Heron RT-21pp controller for sale. Very few use, like new in 
> original box
> 
> Asking $ 400.- + shipping from PA ,17543
> 
> If interested contact me directly
>  
> -- 
> 73,
> Jorge
> CX6VM/CW5W
> 
>   Libre de virus. www.avast.com
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated

[Barry N1EU]

The IC-7300 uses a 14-bit ADC.

My ANAN-100D uses 16-bit ADC and overload of ADC occurs at a signal level
of -10dBm, which I never see in my single transmitter environment.  I do
prefer the K3s for contesting, but not for lack of front-end robustness on
the part of the ANAN.

73, Barry N1EU

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Barry LaZar  wrote:

> Joe,
> I agree with you basically. I think it's just the manor in which you
> state the problem.
>
> You touch on the real problem 14-16 bits of sampling vice having more
> bits in the sample. It's not specifically the direct sampling architecture.
> I think the radio companies just can't get 24 bit ADCs fast enough to do
> direct sampling at commodity pricing which would allow direct sampling with
> out the baggage. If I can do 24 bit sampling and high and low pass
> filtering, I can simplify receiver design AND have a an acceptable dynamic
> range. Multiple instances of DSP processing of the 24 bit samples will
> allow as many virtual receivers, slices, as processor power will allow. My
> guess is we are on the verge of getting to where we would like to be.
>
> Flex is using a 16 bit ADC and I'm not sure what the 7300 is using,
> but I infer it, too, is 16 bit. I do believe that the Elecraft
> architectures are all based on 24 bit sampling. The Elecraft designs should
> be tolerant to serious environmental abuse short of a local thunderstorm.
>
> Our comments reflect a rigorous tech discussion. But, there is another
> issue that has not been discussed in anything I've read so far, ultimate
> filter rejection. Flex, Kenwood, and Elecraft have filtering that runs in
> the 100 db region, or a little better. I saw that the IC-7300 is about 20
> db worse. What that means if you are a CW operator, serious or otherwise,
> and there is a pile up on a DX station, a contest, or just a really busy
> weekend, you may have problems from strong stations not too far away while
> you are trying to work an S1-3 station. SSB operators have other problems
> like splatter and no amount of superb design will fix that.
>
> I'm pleased there is a vigorous discussion on the new radios. It helps
> push the designers and the technology.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: 4/26/2016 10:10:32 PM an
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood's receiver performance table updated
>
> On 4/26/2016 8:08 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:
>>
>>> Everybody is ignoring W4TV's 800lb Gorilla, ADC overload.
>>>
>>
>> I can't take credit for that ... the warning comes from some of the
>> best RF designers in the world.  Direct sampling receivers are very
>> good in controlled situations.  Unfortunately, those who are used to
>> analog superhetrodyne receivers do not recognize the symptoms of ADC
>> overload/overflow in many cases.
>>
>> The overflow can show up as an occasional click or pop if the number
>> and strength of signals continues to increase conditions go down hill
>> very rapidly.  The best 16 bit ADC based SDRs can and do show very
>> significant overload issues when run without effective front end
>> bandpass filtering in high RF environments (160 meters near AM BC
>> stations, 40 meters in Europe, 160 meters in New England during a
>> contest, etc.).
>>
>> One can apply filtering (which Icom seems to have done in the 7300),
>> apply attenuation (which Flex seems to have done in the 6000 series)
>> or both.  Filtering limits the number and width of "slice receivers"
>> while attenuation kills weak signal performance.
>>
>> I find Icom's implementation interesting in that they are using the
>> technology as a single band, single channel receiver (they could have
>> added Dual RX within the same band at practically no hardware cost) - an
>> application where, with tight bandpass filtering, direct sampling
>> may be ready to compete as indicated by the fact that Sherwood's tests
>> place the 7300's above some "good" conventional rigs like the Ten-Tec
>> Eagle, Kenwood TS-590SG and TS-990 in MDS, LO Phase noise and IMD DR.
>>
>> However, for the ultimate multi-channel receiver, ADC technology is
>> still 4 to 6 bits short as witnessed by the need for 12 to 20 dB of
>> attenuation in the Flex 6000 or the 0 to 30 dB electronically stepped
>> attenuators in some of the other products like the Anan, Hermes, etc.
>> Sherwood's results hint at this when comparing the MDS with the
>> preamp on and preamp off ... even with its preamp on the Flex 6700
>> MDS is the same as the K3S with *no preamp*!
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>... Joe, W4TV
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Wattmeter for K3s Calibration

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,4/26/2016 6:49 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

Would the LP-100A meet the accuracy/precision requirements to do the power cals 
outlined in the K3s Manual?


I own one, with two couplers for my SO2R station. It's a fine product, 
and at least some years ago, was used at Elecraft for production 
testing. Pro quality dummy loads are among the things I buy at ham flea 
markets.


73, Jim K9YC
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