Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Bill W4ZV]

(BTW I wrote the following ~3 years ago before APF was changed from HOLD to
TAP on DUAL PB):

##
I use APF virtually all the time and never use RIT, SHIFT, etc.  Just HOLD
DUAL PB to actuate APF and use the VFO to zero beat.  COARSE (10 Hz) VFO
steps is usually close enough but you can switch to FINE (1 Hz) if necessary
for ultra weak signals.  I also strongly endorse N6KR's suggestion below: 

"I suggest setting the passband width to about 250-300 Hz when using APF." 

This is extremely important since bandwidths too narrow will introduce
additional ringing to the APF which already borders on ringing.  I actually
use a 200 Hz XFIL but set to actuate at DSP 400 Hz.  With WIDTH set to 400
Hz, the signal first goes through the relatively broad (4.0 shape factor)
200 Hz XFIL, then a 400 Hz DSP and finally the narrow APF.  This makes the
cascaded XFIL/DSP seem more like 250 Hz, reduces ringing, still allows you
to hear off-frequency callers (although attenuated) and helps your ears
discriminate weak signals from noise by providing a wider background sample
of noise.
###

The last phrase "helps your ears discriminate weak signals from noise by
providing a wider background sample of noise" is key.  Narrower bandwidths
are not best for the human ear/brain...no matter what theory says about
narrower bandwidths having better S/N.

73,  Bill  W4ZV



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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[David Blake via Elecraft]

I chase very weak CW signals on 160M 80M and 6M many of which Iwould not have 
been able to hear unless I turned on the APF feature.
I have a 400kz filter as my narrowest CW filter and tune like this: 
    1) Zero beat exactly 
    2) Hold the XFIL/APF button    3) Narrow the width as far as it will go  to 
.05 which I interpret as being 50hz    4) it might help to change tuning to 3 
digits by taping the FINE button    5) Tune ever so carefully +/- a few hz and 
sometimes shifting slightly until the best signal is heard
A weak signal often pops right out of the noise, but be you will find there may 
be unpleasantringing, popping in the noise you might not like.  Point is u can 
pull a signal out and work himwhen it would otherwise be impossible to copy.
73Dave N4DB  K3s 10223
 

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 12:56 PM, Robert W5AJ Wood  
wrote:
 

 I'm curious about others BW (width) setting on CW
If weak, really weak  using 20 to 15 hz 
Going narrower to 10 or 5hz setting doesn't seem to do much 
Really helps on weak 160 signals, generally APF off 

73 Robert W5AJ



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 9:43 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal is at
the APF peak.

I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.

Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth display.
Other spectrum display programs would work as well.

73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. 
> In my own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not 
> seem to help APF function and rather muddies it.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is 
>> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
>> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
>> NR= ~ 5-3
>> APF= ON
>> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR 
>> settings of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the 
>> APF has something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
>>>
>>> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
>>>
>>> That should answer your question :-)
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>>>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
>>>> been
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow 
>> or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>>>> ...robert
>>>> --
>>>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa 
>>>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>>>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Robert W5AJ Wood]

I'm curious about others BW (width) setting on CW
If weak, really weak  using 20 to 15 hz 
Going narrower to 10 or 5hz setting doesn't seem to do much 
Really helps on weak 160 signals, generally APF off 

73 Robert W5AJ



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 9:43 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal is at
the APF peak.

I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.

Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth display.
Other spectrum display programs would work as well.

73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. 
> In my own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not 
> seem to help APF function and rather muddies it.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is 
>> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
>> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
>> NR= ~ 5-3
>> APF= ON
>> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR 
>> settings of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the 
>> APF has something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
>>>
>>> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
>>>
>>> That should answer your question :-)
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>>>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
>>>> been
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow 
>> or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>>>> ...robert
>>>> --
>>>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa 
>>>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>>>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[brian]

Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal 
is at the APF peak.


I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched 
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This 
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift 
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.


Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an 
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth 
display.  Other spectrum display programs would work as well.


73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:

I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. In my
own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not seem to
help APF function and rather muddies it.

Chip
AE5KA

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
wrote:


On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is
desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
BW= 700-1000 Hz,
NR= ~ 5-3
APF= ON
Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings
of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has
something to work on.  My theory, anyway.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ


On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:

The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.

That should answer your question :-)

Ken


At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:

When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been

selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or
wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.

...robert
--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA



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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Chip Stratton]

I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. In my
own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not seem to
help APF function and rather muddies it.

Chip
AE5KA

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
wrote:

> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is
> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
> NR= ~ 5-3
> APF= ON
> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings
> of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has
> something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
> >
> > The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
> >
> > That should answer your question :-)
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
> >> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been
> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or
> wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
> >> ...robert
> >> --
> >> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
> >> rc...@verizon.net.usa
> >> Syracuse, New York, USA
> >>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Brian Hunt]

On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is desirable 
since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
BW= 700-1000 Hz,
NR= ~ 5-3
APF= ON
Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings of 5 
and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has something to work 
on.  My theory, anyway. 

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
> 
> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
> 
> That should answer your question :-)
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been 
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or wide 
>> bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>> ...robert
>> --
>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
>> rc...@verizon.net.usa
>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>> 

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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Ken Arck]

The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.

That should answer your question :-)

Ken


At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
been selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a 
narrow or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.

...robert
--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA
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[Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

[Robert G Strickland]

When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been 
selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or 
wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.

...robert
--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Don Wilhelm]

Joe,

Check the Firmware level.  If it is not 5.14, you may not have the DUAL 
PB or APF available.  Those were temporarily omitted from a few firmware 
releases, but were restored in 5.14.

Check the Firmware Release Notes for details.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/23/2015 6:44 PM, Joe Moffatt wrote:

I can't find the CONFIG: DUAL PB setting to enable APF in my K3.  Am I missing 
something?

This is an up to date new K3.




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[Elecraft] K3 APF

[Joe Moffatt]

I can't find the CONFIG: DUAL PB setting to enable APF in my K3.  Am I missing 
something?

This is an up to date new K3.

Thanks,

73
Joe
AB5OR



From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 5:41 PM
To: 'Grant Youngman'
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AM Performance

Grant,

No ideology here, just the brutal facts of business.

If people do not like the feature set of a product, people will not purchase
it.

If Elecraft does not appeal to the market segment that buys a radio for the
features they offer, they will soon begin to dwindle and ultimately die.
Then there are zero resources for anything.

I personally think a better CW code reader would be a better use of
resources compared to AM.

Do you think new buyers of radios are more interested in AM performance, or
the ability of the radio to decode CW (for those that don't know CW). Of
those two categories of buyers, which one has a larger number of people?

A company (or senator, or representative, or president, or any elected
official) MUST focus their efforts, or fall prey to competition that does
focus on the majority. If not, they perish.

Technology, while important, is not the only factor. There are more CW
operators in the world than there are AM'ers. That fact makes Elecraft's
decision easier. Focus on CW as opposed to AM. They did this very same
thing with the recent release of the synth. The new synth makes little
difference on SSB (and AM for that matter) and has it's impact on CW. BUT
not that much of an impact on a band that is not crowded. It only shines on
a crowded CW band like Sweepstakes, 160 meter contests, and the like.

My interest is CW, without a computer. Hence my decision to go with the K3.
I had a TS-480, and it worked great and met my CW needs. There was no real
reason to change to a K3, as for my style of operation, the 480 was good.
But the 480 did not have a panadaptor or a roofing filter, that was
important to me. So, Kenwood lost a customer, and Elecraft picked one up.

Those are the realities of the market. If Kenwood loses to many customer,
the will go the way of the Globe's, the Vikings, the Drakes, the Eicos, the
Heathkits, the Hallicrafters, the Collins. The list goes on and on and on.

BTW, I am an old phart too.

Jim
W6AIM


-Original Message-
From: Grant Youngman [mailto:n...@tx.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:55 PM
To: jim
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AM Performance

I don't know who you consider to be the "big 3". Some oh-not-so-old
Kenwood radios are excellent on AM. The Orion I/II is truly an excellent AM
transmitter (I owned 3 of them, and even now they aren't exactly shabby on
any other mode). The Flex-most-anything can be broadcast quality (perhaps
you should seek one out).

There is a large, vibrant, and growing AM community (who's technology is far
younger than CW). Universally, they dis the K3 for its poor (relatively) AM
performance, and avoid it (in some quarters with great disdain) for that
reason. Frankly, I'm getting too old to keep hauling around a Globe King
500 and a Globe Champion 300.

Given the K3 is an SDR -- there is no reason (well, other than "mode" bias
perhaps and a few (100/1000) lines of code that it could not also meet the
needs of the AM community and become a popular radio there.

I get exceedingly tired at being scolded for being an old f*rt, simply for
enjoying an operating mode that is younger than CW. (And, by the way, I like
CW too, and SSB, and various digi modes from time to time).

There are many groups of hams involved in many different aspects of the
hobby. I'd respectfully suggest we might want to be a bit more respectful of
ALL, even if they don't fit with our personal ham radio ideology. But
that's another subject for a different venue. .. :(

Grant NQ5T


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:28 PM, jim 
>  wrote:
>
> A more gentlemanly form:
>
> Elecraft needs to remain competitive in the market.
>
> They have limited resources to advance the art. Lose focus and they
> fritter the valuable resources and die.
>
> The other "Big 3" do not concern themselves with AM, or for that
> matter, anything short of selling a new radios at kilo-dollars for new
> revisions, which Elecraft can do with upgrades that are little or no cost.
>
> Elecraft users are the benefactor of their focus.
>
> They do NOT need to focus resources on AM.
>
> For us old-timers here, if R.L. Drake focused on AM when they designed
> and released the Drake 1A (targeted for the SSB mode), they would have
> gone the way of Compaq, Commodore, Digital Equipment and others.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Grant Youngman [mailto:n...@tx.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:14 PM
> To: jim
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AM Performance
>
> Is it not possible to have a rational discussion on this list wit

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[Dave Olean]

Nothing wrong except the firmware. A recent version (5.08 or 5.10) disabled 
the dual band audio filter. I had the same problem. Check and see if the APF 
is active when you push and hold the DB FIL button while in CW mode. It 
should be active. Solution is to upgrade to 5.13.

K1WHS
- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Marx" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 4:31 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT


When I go into my K3’s CONFIG menu to the Dual PB setting, The only value 
I see in the screen is two dashes  —  Turning the knob that normally will 
change a menu value has no effect.  I’m wondering if my APF is working 
properly as even when I tune in a station on CW with the APF, it is very, 
very hollow and rings a lot.  Maybe this is normal.  It really does not 
help with a weak signal as it rings so badly you can’t hear the weak 
signal.  I don’t think this is what is supposed to happen?  The APF in my 
Icom IC746 works much better (and probably shouldn’t).


But it does seem that the item in the config menu doesn’t work at all.  Is 
this normal, or is this because I’m using the latest beta firmware or 
something is wrong.


73 all,

Mike WB0SND

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[Fred Jensen]

On 3/14/2015 9:51 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:

The APF will take signals in the noise and make them very readable.


Yes, it is very good once you get the hang of it.  I move the peak just 
a tad off of the center of the passband.  It really seems to make a 
difference ... might be a result of my very compromised hearing, don't 
know..


 It

is not something you will need to use all the time.


There have been several posts over the time that APF appeared from 
people who use it essentially all the time.  I use it a lot on weak 
signals at the noise, but not nearly "all the time."  Any CW signal 
that's above my noise just stands out on the K3.  APF also seems to help 
with multiple very weak signals in the passband.  My guess is that when 
they're all at the noise, it's hard [at least for me] to actually 
associate a tone frequency to each, and they sort of just merge 
together.  APF will usually yank the one I want out of the muddle.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

The APF will take signals in the noise and make them very readable. It 
is not something you will need to use all the time.


Mike W0MU

On 3/14/2015 10:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Sounds like something is wrong Mike.  My CONFIG:DUAL PB toggles 
between "nor" and "APF."


The APF takes a little practice.  Except when I'm NCS of our traffic 
net, I run about 250 Hz DSP BW.  I have found that the APF gets very 
hard to tune with anything less than that and 300 Hz is even better. 
APF performance also seems to be somewhat connected to AGC settings.


Once I mastered it, mine works great, I use it all the time to pull 
very weak SOTA guys running a few watts to a compromise antenna out of 
the noise.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 3/14/2015 9:31 PM, Michael Marx wrote:

When I go into my K3’s CONFIG menu to the Dual PB setting, The only
value I see in the screen is two dashes  —  Turning the knob that
normally will change a menu value has no effect.  I’m wondering if my
APF is working properly as even when I tune in a station on CW with
the APF, it is very, very hollow and rings a lot.  Maybe this is
normal.  It really does not help with a weak signal as it rings so
badly you can’t hear the weak signal.  I don’t think this is what is
supposed to happen?  The APF in my Icom IC746 works much better (and
probably shouldn’t).

But it does seem that the item in the config menu doesn’t work at
all.  Is this normal, or is this because I’m using the latest beta
firmware or something is wrong.

73 all,

Mike WB0SND

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[Fred Jensen]

Sounds like something is wrong Mike.  My CONFIG:DUAL PB toggles between 
"nor" and "APF."


The APF takes a little practice.  Except when I'm NCS of our traffic 
net, I run about 250 Hz DSP BW.  I have found that the APF gets very 
hard to tune with anything less than that and 300 Hz is even better. 
APF performance also seems to be somewhat connected to AGC settings.


Once I mastered it, mine works great, I use it all the time to pull very 
weak SOTA guys running a few watts to a compromise antenna out of the noise.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 3/14/2015 9:31 PM, Michael Marx wrote:

When I go into my K3’s CONFIG menu to the Dual PB setting, The only
value I see in the screen is two dashes  —  Turning the knob that
normally will change a menu value has no effect.  I’m wondering if my
APF is working properly as even when I tune in a station on CW with
the APF, it is very, very hollow and rings a lot.  Maybe this is
normal.  It really does not help with a weak signal as it rings so
badly you can’t hear the weak signal.  I don’t think this is what is
supposed to happen?  The APF in my Icom IC746 works much better (and
probably shouldn’t).

But it does seem that the item in the config menu doesn’t work at
all.  Is this normal, or is this because I’m using the latest beta
firmware or something is wrong.

73 all,

Mike WB0SND

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

What version of the software are you running?

You also need to peak the filter with the shift knob.

Mike W0MU

On 3/14/2015 10:31 PM, Michael Marx wrote:

When I go into my K3’s CONFIG menu to the Dual PB setting, The only value I see 
in the screen is two dashes  —  Turning the knob that normally will change a 
menu value has no effect.  I’m wondering if my APF is working properly as even 
when I tune in a station on CW with the APF, it is very, very hollow and rings 
a lot.  Maybe this is normal.  It really does not help with a weak signal as it 
rings so badly you can’t hear the weak signal.  I don’t think this is what is 
supposed to happen?  The APF in my Icom IC746 works much better (and probably 
shouldn’t).

But it does seem that the item in the config menu doesn’t work at all.  Is this 
normal, or is this because I’m using the latest beta firmware or something is 
wrong.

73 all,

Mike WB0SND

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[Elecraft] K3 APF/Dual PBT

[Michael Marx]

When I go into my K3’s CONFIG menu to the Dual PB setting, The only value I see 
in the screen is two dashes  —  Turning the knob that normally will change a 
menu value has no effect.  I’m wondering if my APF is working properly as even 
when I tune in a station on CW with the APF, it is very, very hollow and rings 
a lot.  Maybe this is normal.  It really does not help with a weak signal as it 
rings so badly you can’t hear the weak signal.  I don’t think this is what is 
supposed to happen?  The APF in my Icom IC746 works much better (and probably 
shouldn’t).  

But it does seem that the item in the config menu doesn’t work at all.  Is this 
normal, or is this because I’m using the latest beta firmware or something is 
wrong.

73 all,

Mike WB0SND

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF/Fine & SPOT/RIT

[John Oppenheimer]

Corrections:

On 08/24/2013 06:53 AM, John Oppenheimer wrote:
> Will the KX3 features:
> - APF mode enables FINE tuning
> - SPOT with RIT enabled tunes RIT, not VFO A
> be ported to the K3?
> 
> John KN5L
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[Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Chuck Guenther]

K3 users may wish to try my Macro's for using APF (CW Audio Peak Filter):

"APF ON"  Turns on APF, puts VFO in Fine tune mode (1 Hz resolution):
IS ;SWH29;RT1;SWT53;RT0;RT1;SWT49;LK0;

"APF DN"  Turns on APF, puts VFO in Fine, turns on RIT and tunes down 20 
Hz:

IS ;SWH29;RT1;SWT53;RT0;RT1;RD;RD;SWT49;LK0;

"APF UP"  Turns on APF, puts VFO in Fine, turns on RIT and tunes up 20 Hz:
IS ;SWH29;RT1;SWT53;RT0;RT1;RU;RU;SWT49;LK0;

"APF CLR"  Turns APF and RIT off, restores tuning resolution to 10 Hz:
SWH29;SWT49;SWT53;RT0;IS ;

Note: with APF DN and APF UP, the purpose of shifting the tuning 
frequency 20 Hz is to ensure the desired signal peaks at a pitch 20 Hz 
away from the "ring" frequency of the APF.  You will have to make some 
careful adjustments of the APF shift control and the VFO frequency in 
order to peak the signal with these versions.


73,
Chuck  NI0C

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Mike Greenway]

I use 350 hz pitch and with a decent signal the APF works okay although its not 
really needed under those conditions.  When the signal is very very weak it is 
hard for me to tell when the stations stops sending, ie the ring from noise 
burst sounds the same as the station transmitting.  For that reason it is very 
annoying.  I have spent time on 160 trying to copy something with APF that I 
cant without but cant find where it really helps.  It does sound neat when you 
turn it on and peak up signals and maybe if there were no noise burst at all it 
might be more useful.  I use dual QF-1A audio filters for stereo while has more 
control for me being able to control each ear separately.   73 Mike K4PI
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Right, Pf. 

Also, the larger percentage of difference between two signals at lower audio
frequencies makes it easier to filter the unwanted signal out, either with a
physical filter or using the "gray matter" filter between our ears. 

73, Ron AC7AC


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Pierfrancesco Caci
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:19 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch


thanks Ron, I guess this relates to Q=f/deltaf ? Didn't even think of this,
and it's interesting that the effect is noticeable at these frequencies. 

Pf


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Pierfrancesco Caci]

thanks Ron, I guess this relates to Q=f/deltaf ? Didn't even think of
this, and it's interesting that the effect is noticeable at these
frequencies. 

Pf



>>>>> "Ron" == Ron D'Eau Claire  writes:


Ron> I believe that you'll find that is true of any filter. By cutting the 
tone
Ron> frequency almost in half (800 to 440 Hz), you almost double the 
effective
Ron> width of the passband. That leaves more room for the keying sidebands 
which
Ron> means less "ringing" or stretching of the keying transitions.

Ron> (I like lower frequency tones too.) 

Ron> 73 Ron AC7AC

Ron> -Original Message-
Ron> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
Ron> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Pierfrancesco 
Caci
Ron> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 1:25 AM
Ron> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Ron> Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch


Ron> Someone mentioned that APF rings less when pitch tone is set to 440 Hz
Ron> instead of 800 Hz. So, I'm trying and it indeed seems to ring less. 
Ron> Anyone else hearing this?
Ron> Is this some DSP effect or a psychoacustic effect? 

Ron> Condition of test: 
Ron> 200Hz 5-pole filter
Ron> DSP BW 50Hz
Ron> RF gain backed so that signal is barely audible with no APF RX Audio EQ
Ron> bands 4 and 5 set to 0, all rest down -6

Ron> Pf

Ron> --
Ron> Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx


-- 
Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I believe that you'll find that is true of any filter. By cutting the tone
frequency almost in half (800 to 440 Hz), you almost double the effective
width of the passband. That leaves more room for the keying sidebands which
means less "ringing" or stretching of the keying transitions.

(I like lower frequency tones too.) 

73 Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Pierfrancesco Caci
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 1:25 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch


Someone mentioned that APF rings less when pitch tone is set to 440 Hz
instead of 800 Hz. So, I'm trying and it indeed seems to ring less. 
Anyone else hearing this?
Is this some DSP effect or a psychoacustic effect? 

Condition of test: 
200Hz 5-pole filter
DSP BW 50Hz
RF gain backed so that signal is barely audible with no APF RX Audio EQ
bands 4 and 5 set to 0, all rest down -6

Pf

--
Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Ken G Kopp]

I operate almost exclusively CW and my APF is never turned off.
I use a 400 Hz filter, BW set at @350 Hz, and a pitch setting of
440 Hz.

FWIW, I hear -no- "ringing".

73!

Ken - K0PP


On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Pierfrancesco Caci  wrote:

>
> Someone mentioned that APF rings less when pitch tone is set to 440 Hz
> instead of 800 Hz. So, I'm trying and it indeed seems to ring less.
> Anyone else hearing this?
> Is this some DSP effect or a psychoacustic effect?
>
> Condition of test:
> 200Hz 5-pole filter
> DSP BW 50Hz
> RF gain backed so that signal is barely audible with no APF
> RX Audio EQ bands 4 and 5 set to 0, all rest down -6
>
> Pf
>
> --
> Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
> __
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[Elecraft] [K3] APF and Pitch

[Pierfrancesco Caci]

Someone mentioned that APF rings less when pitch tone is set to 440 Hz
instead of 800 Hz. So, I'm trying and it indeed seems to ring less. 
Anyone else hearing this?
Is this some DSP effect or a psychoacustic effect? 

Condition of test: 
200Hz 5-pole filter
DSP BW 50Hz
RF gain backed so that signal is barely audible with no APF
RX Audio EQ bands 4 and 5 set to 0, all rest down -6

Pf

-- 
Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
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[Elecraft] [K3] APF/DualPB trick in KE7X' book

[Pierfrancesco Caci]

Anyone able to use the trick described in the first exercise at page 62?
It seems to work until you hold [DUAL PB] again, at that point the last
CONFIG:DUAL PB selection sticks. 

Pf

-- 
Pierfrancesco Caci, ik5pvx
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF OFF/ON USING PRESETS I/II

[Wayne Burdick]

Jack,

That isn't quite what I meant. You need to set CONFIG:DUAL PB to APF.  
Now select preset I, and turn APF ON by holding the DUAL PB switch.  
Then switch to preset II and turn APF off again using the DUAL PB  
switch. From then on you should be able to alternate between I and II  
and have APF turn on and off.

You can also vary WIDTH for each preset. For example, for preset I, I  
set WIDTH to 200 Hz and APF on. For preset II I set WIDTH to 400 Hz  
with APF off.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Feb 11, 2011, at 9:47 AM, Jack Regan wrote:

> I have tried to use Wayne's suggestion for setting APF on for one  
> preset and
> of for the other. No luck. If I set DUAL PB to APF using CONFIG when  
> PRESET
> I is active and then set DUAL PB to nor when preset II is active  
> when I
> switch back to preset I then DUAL PB has also been changed nor. I have
> checked the latest manual. I have the latest firmware.
>
> What am I missing? Help!
>
>
>
> Jack, AE6GC
>
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[Elecraft] K3 APF OFF/ON USING PRESETS I/II

[Jack Regan]

I have tried to use Wayne's suggestion for setting APF on for one preset and
of for the other. No luck. If I set DUAL PB to APF using CONFIG when PRESET
I is active and then set DUAL PB to nor when preset II is active when I
switch back to preset I then DUAL PB has also been changed nor. I have
checked the latest manual. I have the latest firmware.

What am I missing? Help!

 

Jack, AE6GC

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[Elecraft] K3 APF - Turning it on

[Barry Pfeil]

Hi Craig. Page 35 of the most recent manual has APF instructions.
 
Also, searching the Elecraft web site for "APF" brings up exactly ONE entry, 
that being some release notes for the 4.22 Firmware here: 
http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_software.htm

I haven't tried APF since it was in it's earliest beta "incarnation" but these 
instructions sound right.

73, Barry K6RM
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Craig - AE6RR]

Thanks to all the replied offline.

I now have the latest manual (D9 version) and the release notes for the
firmware.  Let's see if it helps my pull VP8ORK out of the noise on 80m
tonight.

I did work them on 40m CW and SSB last night with the K3 and an ALS-1300
amp.

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Craig - AE6RR
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:20 AM
To: e...@elecraft.com; 'Jim Harris'
Cc: 'Elecraft Email'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

I am still a new K3 user and learning the radio.  I have looked through the
manual a couple of times and I cannot find out how to turn APF on.  I must
be missing that.  It sounds like a useful feature and might help pull VP8ORK
out of the noise.

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

K3 #4877

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ,
Elecraft
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:21 AM
To: Jim Harris
Cc: Elecraft Email
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

If you enable advanced mode in the utility preferences, you can chose to 
only load specific files.

Be careful with this, as DSP, CPU, FPF files etc from a release must all 
match the release set.  That's why we recommend clicking on the 'load 
all files' button.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
---

On 1/31/2011 10:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Vic and all,
>
> This morning I've reloaded all the K3 firmware and the problem has
disappeared.  Guess the third time loading is the charm. 
>
> Two suggestions for those that make decisions.  Put a feature in the
utility to load only certain firmware rather than a complete reload.  There
is a feature to upload only new revisions but nothing to reload only a
single firmware.  Second, zip a complete set of compatible firmware files
into one file, unzip it in the utility and load from those files only.  This
could eliminate the problem I had that took several emails and three days to
correct.  Of course, individual files could be left on the server for those
desiring to download individual files.
>
> The APF does give a peak to weaker CW so it is a definite improvement.  I
noticed very little ringing.  It makes the audio sound a bit more crisp
making it easier to hear.  Guess that is a result of enhancing the "Q"
someplace as has been previously discussed.
>
> Vic, thank you for helping resolve the problem with my K3.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF... wow!

[Brian Machesney]

My mistake: Eric is a great guy, but credit for this post goes to Wayne,
N6KR:

See: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Tips-for-using-APF-td5964773.html

My apologies to Wayne!
-- 
73 -- Brian -- K1LI

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:43 PM, K3RWN  wrote:

> Can you help me with finding the posting by Eric that you mentioned?
>
> I am not finding it in the archive search or my search topics are off.
>
> Rich
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Brian Machesney
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 12:23 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: APF... wow!
>
> The K3's APF feature formalizes behavior that I used to implement by mixing
> the audio from the main and second RX with the two receivers set to
> different IF and DSP bandwidths. The first few times I tried the APF, I was
> not impressed; I thought (mistakenly) that it was not "meant" to work with
> the 8-pole 400Hz IF filters in my K3.
>
> Boy, was I ever wrong! I followed the suggestions that Eric posted last
> week
> - especially using 1Hz FINE tuning - and APF has, indeed, allowed me to
> hear
> signals that were inaudible before. In particular, it has allowed me to
> work
> VP8ORK from 160m down to 10m, raising copy from "ESP" to "workable" in many
> cases.
>
> --
> 73 -- Brian -- K1LI
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Craig - AE6RR]

I am still a new K3 user and learning the radio.  I have looked through the
manual a couple of times and I cannot find out how to turn APF on.  I must
be missing that.  It sounds like a useful feature and might help pull VP8ORK
out of the noise.

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

K3 #4877

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ,
Elecraft
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:21 AM
To: Jim Harris
Cc: Elecraft Email
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

If you enable advanced mode in the utility preferences, you can chose to 
only load specific files.

Be careful with this, as DSP, CPU, FPF files etc from a release must all 
match the release set.  That's why we recommend clicking on the 'load 
all files' button.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
---

On 1/31/2011 10:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Vic and all,
>
> This morning I've reloaded all the K3 firmware and the problem has
disappeared.  Guess the third time loading is the charm. 
>
> Two suggestions for those that make decisions.  Put a feature in the
utility to load only certain firmware rather than a complete reload.  There
is a feature to upload only new revisions but nothing to reload only a
single firmware.  Second, zip a complete set of compatible firmware files
into one file, unzip it in the utility and load from those files only.  This
could eliminate the problem I had that took several emails and three days to
correct.  Of course, individual files could be left on the server for those
desiring to download individual files.
>
> The APF does give a peak to weaker CW so it is a definite improvement.  I
noticed very little ringing.  It makes the audio sound a bit more crisp
making it easier to hear.  Guess that is a result of enhancing the "Q"
someplace as has been previously discussed.
>
> Vic, thank you for helping resolve the problem with my K3.
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[Elecraft] K3: APF... wow!

[Brian Machesney]

The K3's APF feature formalizes behavior that I used to implement by mixing
the audio from the main and second RX with the two receivers set to
different IF and DSP bandwidths. The first few times I tried the APF, I was
not impressed; I thought (mistakenly) that it was not "meant" to work with
the 8-pole 400Hz IF filters in my K3.

Boy, was I ever wrong! I followed the suggestions that Eric posted last week
- especially using 1Hz FINE tuning - and APF has, indeed, allowed me to hear
signals that were inaudible before. In particular, it has allowed me to work
VP8ORK from 160m down to 10m, raising copy from "ESP" to "workable" in many
cases.

-- 
73 -- Brian -- K1LI
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Jim Harris]

My thanks to Eric and all who pointed out the Advanced Mode in the View menu.  
I use the utility infrequent so I was unaware of that feature.  Live and learn, 
and I say that in a positive way.

I think this thread can now be put to bed.

Take pride in the USA. 73



Jim, W0EM

--- On Mon, 1/31/11, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft  wrote:

From: Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem
To: "Jim Harris" 
Cc: "Elecraft Email" , v...@rakefet.com
Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:21 PM

If you enable advanced mode in the utility preferences, you can chose to only 
load specific files.

Be careful with this, as DSP, CPU, FPF files etc from a release must all match 
the release set.  That's why we recommend clicking on the 'load all files' 
button.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
---

On 1/31/2011 10:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Vic and all,
> 
> This morning I've reloaded all the K3 firmware and the problem has 
> disappeared.  Guess the third time loading is the charm. 
> Two suggestions for those that make decisions.  Put a feature in the utility 
> to load only certain firmware rather than a complete reload.  There is a 
> feature to upload only new revisions but nothing to reload only a single 
> firmware.  Second, zip a complete set of compatible firmware files into one 
> file, unzip it in the utility and load from those files only.  This could 
> eliminate the problem I had that took several emails and three days to 
> correct.  Of course, individual files could be left on the server for those 
> desiring to download individual files.
> 
> The APF does give a peak to weaker CW so it is a definite improvement.  I 
> noticed very little ringing.  It makes the audio sound a bit more crisp 
> making it easier to hear.  Guess that is a result of enhancing the "Q" 
> someplace as has been previously discussed.
> 
> Vic, thank you for helping resolve the problem with my K3.



  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

If you enable advanced mode in the utility preferences, you can chose to 
only load specific files.

Be careful with this, as DSP, CPU, FPF files etc from a release must all 
match the release set.  That's why we recommend clicking on the 'load 
all files' button.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
---

On 1/31/2011 10:04 AM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Vic and all,
>
> This morning I've reloaded all the K3 firmware and the problem has 
> disappeared.  Guess the third time loading is the charm. 
>
> Two suggestions for those that make decisions.  Put a feature in the utility 
> to load only certain firmware rather than a complete reload.  There is a 
> feature to upload only new revisions but nothing to reload only a single 
> firmware.  Second, zip a complete set of compatible firmware files into one 
> file, unzip it in the utility and load from those files only.  This could 
> eliminate the problem I had that took several emails and three days to 
> correct.  Of course, individual files could be left on the server for those 
> desiring to download individual files.
>
> The APF does give a peak to weaker CW so it is a definite improvement.  I 
> noticed very little ringing.  It makes the audio sound a bit more crisp 
> making it easier to hear.  Guess that is a result of enhancing the "Q" 
> someplace as has been previously discussed.
>
> Vic, thank you for helping resolve the problem with my K3.
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[Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Jim Harris]

Vic and all,

This morning I've reloaded all the K3 firmware and the problem has 
disappeared.  Guess the third time loading is the charm.  

Two suggestions for those that make decisions.  Put a feature in the utility to 
load only certain firmware rather than a complete reload.  There is a feature 
to upload only new revisions but nothing to reload only a single firmware.  
Second, zip a complete set of compatible firmware files into one file, unzip it 
in the utility and load from those files only.  This could eliminate the 
problem I had that took several emails and three days to correct.  Of course, 
individual files could be left on the server for those desiring to download 
individual files.

The APF does give a peak to weaker CW so it is a definite improvement.  I 
noticed very little ringing.  It makes the audio sound a bit more crisp making 
it easier to hear.  Guess that is a result of enhancing the "Q" someplace as 
has been previously discussed.

Vic, thank you for helping resolve the problem with my K3.

Take pride in the USA. 73



Jim, W0EM

Message: 31
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 17:00:57 -0800
From: Vic K2VCO 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fw: K3 APF Problem
To: Jim Harris 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4d4609c9.20...@rakefet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Make sure DTBL0014.HEX is in the folder along with the DSP files. That's the 
DSP table for 
DSP 2.71. Then reload the DSP. I think this is the same kind of problem that 
you had with 
the FP -- out-of-sync files.



  
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[Elecraft] K3 APF Problem

[Jim Harris]

Vic,

Thank you for the response.  You may be heading me in the right direction.  I 
had the K3 Utility download the latest of all the firmware's from the website 
and told it to install them.  It shows it downloaded and installed FPF 1.09.  
You mention it should be 1.14.  I'll try to find it on the site, download and 
install it and see what happens.

Strange that what should apparently be the latest release is not directly 
available when the Utility checks the website.  That creates problems for 
people like me.

I'll post results when there is something new.

Take pride in the USA. 73



Jim, W0EM

Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:18:53 -0800
From: Vic K2VCO 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem???
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4d44bc7d.8030...@rakefet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Make sure that the front panel code is also updated. The proper version for 
4.25 is 1.14. 
Also make sure the proper DSP table is present when you update; it should be 
DTBL0014.HEX. 
If all the versions aren't synchronized you can have problems like you describe.

On 1/29/2011 2:27 PM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> After watching the progress of APF for a few months I decided it was time to 
> upgrade to
> the latest firmware (4.25) and give it a try.  When pressing the DUAL PB 
> there is a
> LOUD clip and the CW is gone.  Turning the SHIFT control products one LOUD 
> clip for
> each 50 Hz step.  I went to CONFIG and could not find DUEL PB to ascertain 
> APF was
> selected.  Now this gets complicated so follow closely.  There is no DUEL PB 
> in the VFO
> B space between DIGOUT1 and EXT ALC as the latest manual (D9 - Pg 55) 
> indicates there
> should be.  However, when EXT ALC is selected APF is show in VFO A.  It 
> appears that in
> my K3 all values in the second column of the manual (displayed in VFO A) 
> beginning with
> EXT ALC is shifted up one entry from the first column of the manual 
> (displayed in VFO
> B).  BTW, turning VFO A knob does change the VFO A display from APF to DUEL 
> PB and back
> again when in EXT ALC.
>
> I have taken a picture and will be happy to display it someplace if anyone is
> interested in seeing it.
>
> I've read the verbiage on page 35 about APF and there is nothing there that 
> seems to
> help.  Anyone have any ideas or can tell me what I'm doing wrong.
>
> Take pride in the USA. 73
>
>
>
> Jim, W0EM



  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Problem???

[Vic K2VCO]

Make sure that the front panel code is also updated. The proper version for 
4.25 is 1.14. 
Also make sure the proper DSP table is present when you update; it should be 
DTBL0014.HEX. 
If all the versions aren't synchronized you can have problems like you describe.

On 1/29/2011 2:27 PM, Jim Harris wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> After watching the progress of APF for a few months I decided it was time to 
> upgrade to
> the latest firmware (4.25) and give it a try.  When pressing the DUAL PB 
> there is a
> LOUD clip and the CW is gone.  Turning the SHIFT control products one LOUD 
> clip for
> each 50 Hz step.  I went to CONFIG and could not find DUEL PB to ascertain 
> APF was
> selected.  Now this gets complicated so follow closely.  There is no DUEL PB 
> in the VFO
> B space between DIGOUT1 and EXT ALC as the latest manual (D9 - Pg 55) 
> indicates there
> should be.  However, when EXT ALC is selected APF is show in VFO A.  It 
> appears that in
> my K3 all values in the second column of the manual (displayed in VFO A) 
> beginning with
> EXT ALC is shifted up one entry from the first column of the manual 
> (displayed in VFO
> B).  BTW, turning VFO A knob does change the VFO A display from APF to DUEL 
> PB and back
> again when in EXT ALC.
>
> I have taken a picture and will be happy to display it someplace if anyone is
> interested in seeing it.
>
> I've read the verbiage on page 35 about APF and there is nothing there that 
> seems to
> help.  Anyone have any ideas or can tell me what I'm doing wrong.
>
> Take pride in the USA. 73
>
>
>
> Jim, W0EM
>
>
>
> __ Elecraft 
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-- 
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Elecraft] K3 APF Problem???

[Jim Harris]

Hi Folks,

After watching the progress of APF for a few months I decided it was time to 
upgrade to the latest firmware (4.25) and give it a try.  When pressing the 
DUAL PB there is a LOUD clip and the CW is gone.  Turning the SHIFT control 
products one LOUD clip for each 50 Hz step.  I went to CONFIG and could not 
find DUEL PB to ascertain APF was selected.  Now this gets complicated so 
follow closely.  There is no DUEL PB in the VFO B space between DIGOUT1 and EXT 
ALC as the latest manual (D9 - Pg 55) indicates there should be.  However, when 
EXT ALC is selected APF is show in VFO A.  It appears that in my K3 all values 
in the second column of the manual (displayed in VFO A) beginning with EXT ALC 
is shifted up one entry from the first column of the manual (displayed in VFO 
B).  BTW, turning VFO A knob does change the VFO A display from APF to DUEL PB 
and back again when in EXT ALC.

I have taken a picture and will be happy to display it someplace if anyone is 
interested in seeing it.  

I've read the verbiage on page 35 about APF and there is nothing there that 
seems to help.  Anyone have any ideas or can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Take pride in the USA. 73



Jim, W0EM


  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Jim Sheldon]

Hey Ralph & Robby,
After all the contest activity on 160 yesterday, after I shut down I had 
trouble getting to sleep because I was hearing all those phantom CW calls for 
several hours before it subsided.  

Seriously I was able to hear stations right on the noise that I would never 
have been able to pull out with the IC-7000 I used to have.  Robby, I 
distinctly remember working you last night and you had a nice clean signal (ref 
your other post on audio distortion).  It must have been just on receive.  I 
didn't notice that problem here and there were many-many S9+20 and bigger 
signals showing on the P3 and I had the span set to 6KHz (3-C+3).

Another plus for the K3/P3, was able to find those weak stations in between the 
+20 guys and work them thanks to the super selectivity of the K3.  400 Hz 8 
pole filter is sufficient to keep out the adjacent frequency strong signals 
even from an Alpha 9500 running 1K+ less than 5 blocks from me.  Never even 
knew he was in the contest until I rolled across him.  Centered up, he bloomed 
the P3's trace up pretty wide, but I could still copy S3 to S5 signals within 
1KHz either side of him without any IMD problems.  Couldn't see the weaker 
signals on the P3 due to his overload, but had no trouble working them.

Jim - W0EB
Park City, KS

>
> That was me!
>
> -Robby
> VY2SS
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Robby.VY2SS]

That was me!

-Robby
VY2SS
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-effectiveness-tp5961155p5972728.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Elecraft] K3 APF comparison, HR2DMR

[Brian Moran]

I just updated the radio this evening, tried out the APF feature -- it seems to 
really ROCK! I recorded HR2DMR with and without the APF... here's the file.
https://bmoran.onehub.com/n9adg/pages/home/content_items/show/b343e3684ee387647b9f8cedf6d70b3f9c2aa8ab/HR2DMR_APF_COMP.mp3

*(shorter link: https://bmoran.onehub.com/d/mboq/)
Can't wait to try it with say VP8ORK...
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[Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[PTA_ABD]

Exactly my thoughts. I found the initial beta release with APF to be excellent. 
After further improvements, more miss than hit, despite trying all the 
"tricks". Just my two cents worth...

Now back to the extensive QRP/QRO thread, and it's tenuous connection to the 
KPA500...

Paul WB2ABD
K3 #129


> I was thinking exactly that myself last night on 160m - no problem with the
bandwidth, but I'd gladly give up a db or two of APF gain to reduce the
ringing.
Because of the ringing, I can hear signals that aren't even there!

Ralph, VE7XF <

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Pete Smith]

Heck, I can hear thiose phantoms with the radio off (tinnitus).  
Fortunately it subsides in the presence of other noise - just like with 
the APF, which works FB for me on the low bands.

73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000



On 1/25/2011 7:55 PM, Barry N1EU wrote:
> What you're describing ("hear signals that aren't even there") sounds to me
> like the APF is working just as intended.  You're hearing faint ringing at
> your sidetone frequency when no signal is present.  When a signal is present
> and tuned in, it will have precisely that same tone but will pop further out
> of the noise than that "phantom" signal.  It just demands a little practice
> and patience along with fine tuning.
>
> If someone wants a lower Q APF with less gain, they should try a dsp width
> of 50hz without APF.
>
> 73, Barry N1EU
>
>
> Ralph Parker wrote:
>>> ...perhaps less gain and a little wider BW
>>> or give the user the tools to do it ourselves.
>> I was thinking exactly that myself last night on 160m - no problem with
>> the
>> bandwidth, but I'd gladly give up a db or two of APF gain to reduce the
>> ringing.
>> Because of the ringing, I can hear signals that aren't even there!
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Don Wilhelm]

  Ralph,

You have heard that to reduce the ringing, increase the DSP bandwidth.  
The 50 Hz filter width has a bit of ringing by itself, so add the APF 
and the situation becomes more pronounced.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.  The bit of ringing will bring 
out weak signals just like the old Q-Multiplier used to do (and it 
caused "ringing").  The APF was not intended to be used full-time, turn 
it on only when it will help -- besides, it is too sharp for "tuning 
around".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/25/2011 7:40 PM, Ralph Parker wrote:
>> ...perhaps less gain and a little wider BW
>> or give the user the tools to do it ourselves.
> I was thinking exactly that myself last night on 160m - no problem with the
> bandwidth, but I'd gladly give up a db or two of APF gain to reduce the
> ringing.
> Because of the ringing, I can hear signals that aren't even there!
>
> Ralph, VE7XF
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Barry N1EU]

What you're describing ("hear signals that aren't even there") sounds to me
like the APF is working just as intended.  You're hearing faint ringing at
your sidetone frequency when no signal is present.  When a signal is present
and tuned in, it will have precisely that same tone but will pop further out
of the noise than that "phantom" signal.  It just demands a little practice
and patience along with fine tuning.

If someone wants a lower Q APF with less gain, they should try a dsp width
of 50hz without APF.

73, Barry N1EU


Ralph Parker wrote:
> 
>>...perhaps less gain and a little wider BW
>>or give the user the tools to do it ourselves.
> 
> I was thinking exactly that myself last night on 160m - no problem with
> the
> bandwidth, but I'd gladly give up a db or two of APF gain to reduce the
> ringing.
> Because of the ringing, I can hear signals that aren't even there!
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-effectiveness-tp5961155p5961190.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Elecraft] K3: APF effectiveness

[Ralph Parker]

>...perhaps less gain and a little wider BW
>or give the user the tools to do it ourselves.

I was thinking exactly that myself last night on 160m - no problem with the
bandwidth, but I'd gladly give up a db or two of APF gain to reduce the
ringing.
Because of the ringing, I can hear signals that aren't even there!

Ralph, VE7XF

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[Elecraft] Elecraft [K3][APF] BU2AW

[Monty Shultes]

I'm no DX or CW expert.  I saw BU2AW on the DX spotting reflector yesterday, 
14034khz.  I listened.  Nothing. I engaged APF, and he popped out about S3, 
quite readable.  I called.  Kami responded the first time, giving me a 519 
report.  (Hexagonal beam antenna here, ALS600 with Phil Salas' QSK mod running 
400 watts)  Flabbergasted, I kept responding until 73s were passed.  Is this a 
great hobby or what?
Monty K2DLJ
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[Elecraft] [K3]: APF or Dual PB? You can have both!

[Richard Squire - HB9ANM]

Like some others have reported, I often tapped the DUAL PB button instead of
holding it, thereby selecting the SSB filter instead of engaging the APF...

To avoid this, I chose to assign the APF to setup "II" of the HICUT/WIDTH
button, so an unintentional "tap" would only switch between HICUT and
WIDTH... which is not so annoying.

Then changing CONFIG:DUAL PB to NOR again, setup "II" kept the APF and now,
switching between "I" and "II", I can choose between APF and DUAL PB without
going through the CONFIG procedure. I find this very convenient indeed.

73 es HNY to all
Richard - HB9ANM

-
Richard - HB9ANM
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-or-Dual-PB-You-can-have-both-tp5874347p5874347.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Hi Jorge:

It's all in the release notes with the beta firmware on the Elecraft web
site: www.elecraft.com

Click on Firmware+SW on the sidebar menu. What you want is at the top of the
page that loads: click on "K3 Firmware Updates and Download/Config Utility".
The current firmware is the  top listed on the page the comes up next. Also,
be sure to use the latest K3 Utility program. They are available when you
scroll down to the bottom of that page. 

Have fun - 

73,

Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:16 PM
To: 'K5WA'; 'Elecraft reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

Hello,

I missed many emails in last weeks.

Where can I found information about APF, wich knobs I need to use, wich
firmware, and all the useful information to use APF

I will need it for next ARRL160...

Thanks in advance

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de K5WA
Enviado el: Lunes, 29 de Noviembre de 2010 01:26 p.m.
Para: 'Elecraft reflector'
Asunto: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

I loaded 4.22 for the CQWW CW this weekend and had a great time playing with
it.  2 of my beverages are not working so I originally thought I would just
need APF where my missing beverages were out, but I ended up trying it in
many 80 and 160 situations and found it extremely useful.  At first, I
didn't read the instructions well enough to turn the correct knob to adjust
APF, but I finally figured it out.  It REALLY brought signals out of the
noise that were hard to copy.  Amazing!  It helped me get 72 countries on 80
and 52 countries on 160 this weekend in a single op effort.  My only request
would be to cut the ringing/gain (whichever applies) back just a bit but it
really adds contacts to your score.  Maybe the gain could be user adjustable
in a menu?

Great new tool!

Bob K5WA

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

[K5WA]

Jorge,

Download Firmware version 4.22 as I said in my post.  You will find the text
file in the firmware download which tells you about the correct knob to use,
but it is the SHIFT knob which sets the APF frequency.

See you in the 160 contest.

73,
Bob K5WA

-Original Message-
From: Jorge Diez - CX6VM [mailto:cx6vm.jo...@adinet.com.uy] 
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 5:16 PM
To: 'K5WA'; 'Elecraft reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

Hello,

I missed many emails in last weeks.

Where can I found information about APF, wich knobs I need to use, wich
firmware, and all the useful information to use APF

I will need it for next ARRL160...

Thanks in advance

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello,

I missed many emails in last weeks.

Where can I found information about APF, wich knobs I need to use, wich
firmware, and all the useful information to use APF

I will need it for next ARRL160...

Thanks in advance

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de K5WA
Enviado el: Lunes, 29 de Noviembre de 2010 01:26 p.m.
Para: 'Elecraft reflector'
Asunto: [Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

I loaded 4.22 for the CQWW CW this weekend and had a great time playing with
it.  2 of my beverages are not working so I originally thought I would just
need APF where my missing beverages were out, but I ended up trying it in
many 80 and 160 situations and found it extremely useful.  At first, I
didn't read the instructions well enough to turn the correct knob to adjust
APF, but I finally figured it out.  It REALLY brought signals out of the
noise that were hard to copy.  Amazing!  It helped me get 72 countries on 80
and 52 countries on 160 this weekend in a single op effort.  My only request
would be to cut the ringing/gain (whichever applies) back just a bit but it
really adds contacts to your score.  Maybe the gain could be user adjustable
in a menu?

Great new tool!

Bob K5WA

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[Elecraft] [K3] APF in CQWW

[K5WA]

I loaded 4.22 for the CQWW CW this weekend and had a great time playing with
it.  2 of my beverages are not working so I originally thought I would just
need APF where my missing beverages were out, but I ended up trying it in
many 80 and 160 situations and found it extremely useful.  At first, I
didn't read the instructions well enough to turn the correct knob to adjust
APF, but I finally figured it out.  It REALLY brought signals out of the
noise that were hard to copy.  Amazing!  It helped me get 72 countries on 80
and 52 countries on 160 this weekend in a single op effort.  My only request
would be to cut the ringing/gain (whichever applies) back just a bit but it
really adds contacts to your score.  Maybe the gain could be user adjustable
in a menu?

Great new tool!

Bob K5WA

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[N2TK, Tony]

APF worked great this morning. Was hunting for the KH2 on 160m and couldn't
hear him. Turned on the APF and used 3-digit resolution on the VFO (10HZ
steps) and he popped out as I tuned across him. Worked him with two calls.
New one on topband.

I installed 4.17 on #311 and have 4.22 on #1435. So far I can't hear a
difference when using the APF on very weak signals on topband.
73,
N2TK, Tony
 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:45 AM
To: Dave Perry N4QS
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

5-Hz steps simply make it easier to tune the APF. This has absolutely no
effect on the filter passband, Q, etc. Going back to 10-Hz steps would just
make it harder to center signals when using SHIFT, as was the case with
4.17. Many operators requested the finer step size. 

73,
Wayne


http://www.elecraft.com

On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:54 PM, "Dave Perry N4QS"  wrote:

> 
> I agree that the signal doesn't pop out anymore with 4.22, but I think it
is 
> due to the change to 5 Hz tuning.  It is harder to hear the peak in the 
> signal with the 5 Hz steps in the Shift tuning.  I think we should go back

> to 10 Hz per click.  Just my opinion.
> 
> Dave, N4QS
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Seney" 
> To: "Igor Kosvin" 
> Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness
> 
> 
>> Hi All:
>> 
>> I have the same experience as Igor. There is an APF sweet spot that
either 
>> moved or
>> disappeared.
>> 
>> Would it be helpful if there was a GUI that let us save, load, share, and

>> see all of
>> the various K3 parameter settings that we are adjusting?
>> 
>> On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Igor Kosvin wrote:
>> 
>>> Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
>>> parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 
>>> should
>>> give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
>>> playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to
better
>>> receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on

>>> I
>>> find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With
4.17 
>>> it
>>> was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I 
>>> think.
>>> I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Igor, N1YX
>> 
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> John Seney
>> ARS WD1V (fn42gw)
>> 603 785-2413
>> 
>> 
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[Wayne Burdick]

5-Hz steps simply make it easier to tune the APF. This has absolutely no
effect on the filter passband, Q, etc. Going back to 10-Hz steps would just 
make it harder to center signals when using SHIFT, as was the case with 4.17. 
Many operators requested the finer step size. 

73,
Wayne


http://www.elecraft.com

On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:54 PM, "Dave Perry N4QS"  wrote:

> 
> I agree that the signal doesn't pop out anymore with 4.22, but I think it is 
> due to the change to 5 Hz tuning.  It is harder to hear the peak in the 
> signal with the 5 Hz steps in the Shift tuning.  I think we should go back 
> to 10 Hz per click.  Just my opinion.
> 
> Dave, N4QS
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Seney" 
> To: "Igor Kosvin" 
> Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness
> 
> 
>> Hi All:
>> 
>> I have the same experience as Igor. There is an APF sweet spot that either 
>> moved or
>> disappeared.
>> 
>> Would it be helpful if there was a GUI that let us save, load, share, and 
>> see all of
>> the various K3 parameter settings that we are adjusting?
>> 
>> On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Igor Kosvin wrote:
>> 
>>> Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
>>> parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 
>>> should
>>> give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
>>> playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to better
>>> receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on 
>>> I
>>> find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With 4.17 
>>> it
>>> was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I 
>>> think.
>>> I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Igor, N1YX
>> 
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> John Seney
>> ARS WD1V (fn42gw)
>> 603 785-2413
>> 
>> 
>> __
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>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[David Christ]

Just do two clicks at a time and you have 10 Hz steps, no?  What am I missing?

David K0LUM

At 8:54 PM -0600 11/20/10, Dave Perry N4QS wrote:
>I agree that the signal doesn't pop out anymore with 4.22, but I think it is
>due to the change to 5 Hz tuning.  It is harder to hear the peak in the
>signal with the 5 Hz steps in the Shift tuning.  I think we should go back
>to 10 Hz per click.  Just my opinion.
>
>Dave, N4QS
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[Dave Perry N4QS]

I agree that the signal doesn't pop out anymore with 4.22, but I think it is 
due to the change to 5 Hz tuning.  It is harder to hear the peak in the 
signal with the 5 Hz steps in the Shift tuning.  I think we should go back 
to 10 Hz per click.  Just my opinion.

Dave, N4QS

- Original Message - 
From: "John Seney" 
To: "Igor Kosvin" 
Cc: "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness


> Hi All:
>
> I have the same experience as Igor. There is an APF sweet spot that either 
> moved or
> disappeared.
>
> Would it be helpful if there was a GUI that let us save, load, share, and 
> see all of
> the various K3 parameter settings that we are adjusting?
>
> On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Igor Kosvin wrote:
>
>> Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
>> parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 
>> should
>> give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
>> playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to better
>> receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on 
>> I
>> find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With 4.17 
>> it
>> was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I 
>> think.
>> I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Igor, N1YX
>
>
> 73,
>
> John Seney
> ARS WD1V (fn42gw)
> 603 785-2413
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[Mike]

John,

For me also.
K3 EZ gives you a lot of the parms. http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm

73, Mike NF4L

On 11/20/2010 3:16 PM, John Seney wrote:
> Hi All:
>
> I have the same experience as Igor. There is an APF sweet spot that either 
> moved or
> disappeared.
>
> Would it be helpful if there was a GUI that let us save, load, share, and see 
> all of
> the various K3 parameter settings that we are adjusting?
>
> On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Igor Kosvin wrote:
>
>> Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
>> parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 should
>> give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
>> playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to better
>> receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on I
>> find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With 4.17 it
>> was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I think.
>> I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Igor, N1YX
>
> 73,
>
> John Seney
> ARS WD1V (fn42gw)
> 603 785-2413
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[John Seney]

Hi All:

I have the same experience as Igor. There is an APF sweet spot that either 
moved or
disappeared. 

Would it be helpful if there was a GUI that let us save, load, share, and see 
all of 
the various K3 parameter settings that we are adjusting?

On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:53 PM, Igor Kosvin wrote:

> Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
> parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 should
> give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
> playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to better
> receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on I
> find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With 4.17 it
> was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I think.
> I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Igor, N1YX


73, 

John Seney
ARS WD1V (fn42gw)
603 785-2413


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[Don Cunningham]

Gentlemen,
I am not a CW operator (yet) as I have let my 1960's Navy training go to 
pot, but might I suggest that something might be overlooked in this 
situation with the APF seeming less effective??  The common thing mentioned 
is that "changes on one area often effect other areas" in the firmware.  Is 
it possible that the change to width (I believe that was the parameter) from 
10 hz to 5 hz could be somehow causing this "difference" that some are 
seeing??  Just a possibility from a bystander.
73,
Don, WB5HAK 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[Igor Kosvin]

Sure, you are right, but you would not deny that using same set of
parameters (NR/NB, WIDTH, PITCH, RF, etc) the APF circa 4.17 and 4.22 should
give very similar results since the code of APF remains the same. After
playing few days with 4.22 I find myself having to turn off APF to better
receive weak CW stations. I don't have explanation for this. With APF on I
find it difficult to distinguish dits and dahs of weak signals. With 4.17 it
was much better for me. That should be apples-to apples comparison, I think.
I don't claim to be expert though, listening is very subjective IMHO.

Regards,

Igor, N1YX

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of wb6r...@mac.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:10 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

There are many variables at work with regard to judging the effectiveness of
the K3 APF. In addition to the discussions of noise and careful tuning,
there are user preferences to consider:

1) Headphones vs speakers
2) Enhancing a weak signal to "pop up" that would otherwise be copyable with
adjustment of NR, NB, bandwidth/shift and/or the use of diversity RX.
3) Enhancing a truly weak signal that would otherwise be impossible to copy.

When commenting on the effectiveness of the APF, it would be useful to know
what other of the K3's tools are in use and how they are adjusted.

73 - Steve WB6RSE
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[Elecraft] K3 APF Effectiveness

[wb6rse1]

There are many variables at work with regard to judging the effectiveness of 
the K3 APF. In addition to the discussions of noise and careful tuning, there 
are user preferences to consider:

1) Headphones vs speakers
2) Enhancing a weak signal to "pop up" that would otherwise be copyable with 
adjustment of NR, NB, bandwidth/shift and/or the use of diversity RX.
3) Enhancing a truly weak signal that would otherwise be impossible to copy.

When commenting on the effectiveness of the APF, it would be useful to know 
what other of the K3's tools are in use and how they are adjusted.

73 - Steve WB6RSE
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[Elecraft] K3 APF

[N2TK, Tony]

Finally had some time to play with the APF. This morning VK6HD was called
out on Topband. I could not hear him at all. I have limited real estate so
no long beverages. Just have some pennants and flags for receive. Tuned to
where the pileup was at. Turned on the APF and he pops right out of the
noise. Listened to him for about a ½ hour trying different settings – RF
Gain, Width, Preamp both internal and external. I forgot to try the NR. Just
amazed the one thing that made the difference comparing the other parameters
was the APF. 

I just need to remember to HOLD the XFIL button and not TAP it to toggle the
APF.

 

Tnx for the great implementation of the APF. Now if only there was a spare
switch? Maybe when Santa brings me a P3 I could toggle the APF from there?

 

73,

N2TK, Tony

K3 #311

K3 #1435

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

K3 ain't your daddy's analog radio...

Incoming signals are handled as analog signals until they are
converted to a 15 kHz IF.  At that point the analog is converted to
digital.  All the rest is done in firmware as part of the number soup.
 Calling firmware functions IF or AF is really a misnomer.  All the
neat stuff is done BEFORE the number soup is converted to an actual AF
voltage. APF number soup, NR digital soup, DSP number soup...

I suppose you could say that some of the numbers were AF numbers and
some of them were IF numbers?

73, Guy


On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:19 AM, WILLIS COOKE  wrote:
>
> Igor, wouldn't you expect to find the Audio Peaking Filter in the Audio
> Frequency section?
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: Igor Kosvin 
> To: Bill W4ZV ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:12:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>
> I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with
> narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is
> that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too
> late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver.
>
> 73,
> Igor
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[WILLIS COOKE]

Igor, wouldn't you expect to find the Audio Peaking Filter in the Audio 
Frequency section?
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
K5EWJ 





From: Igor Kosvin 
To: Bill W4ZV ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with
narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is
that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too
late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver.

73,
Igor  


  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> 
> I've got to agree with The Smiths (whoever they are) on this one, Bill - 
> the only thing I was trying to point out was that you don't need to find 
> yourself to the Shift knob to move the APF around, if you tune it to the 
> same point as your IF filter peak and tune with your RIT or the main
> tuning.
> 

Pete I'm repeating myself but...if you tune the K3 in its normal VFO mode
(not FINE) it tunes in 10 Hz steps.  For extremely weak signals (for which
APF is intended) you'll give up 1+ dB by not being able to peak signals that
fall between the 10 Hz steps.  For a signal at or below the noise floor, 1
dB can be the difference between copy and not.  This is why Wayne went to 5
Hz steps instead of 10 Hz in the latest APF implementation.  Of course you
can also switch the VFO to FINE and tune in 1 Hz steps (which is what I did
prior to the 5 Hz SHIFT mod) but 1 Hz is really overkill (...and slow).

Regarding AF TUNE (...not APF) in the TS-930S, it's simply a tunable 3-pole
active filter.  It has NO gain and must be in the order of 80-100 Hz BW. 
Contrast that to the 30 Hz BW and 9 dB gain APF in the K3.  I'd liken AF
TUNE in the 930 to the original focus/context filter (DUAL PB for CW) in the
K3 (which IMHO is not as useful as APF).  

73,  Bill
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738862.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Igor Kosvin]

I beg to differ. The TS-930S APF works pretty good in combination with
narrow (500Hz) set of filters in 2nd and 3rd IF. The problematic part is
that as far as I recall in TS-930s the APF is in AF, which is little too
late to correct other shortcomings of the receiver.

73,
Igor  

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:23 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF



Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> 
> I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to 
> 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well 
> without tuning.  That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always 
> found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals.
> 

Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its
APF to be of much use.  In fact it became one of several functions (like FM,
AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use
(FT-1000MP in 1996).  I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in
the same league as the FT-1000's APF.  The 930 definitely did not have the
extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter.  

I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
callers don't zero beat me that closely).  Will be interested to see if you
have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3.

73,  Bill

-- 
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Lee Buller]

On 11/14/2010 4:23 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
> callers don't zero beat me that closely).

YES!  That's exactly what I'm talking about with respect to it being 
difficult for contest operation.

  Jim

The best filter or audio device ever made is between your ears...including your 
ears.  Amazing piece of work.
As I grow older (Rats!), I've had to have some help with digital hearing aids 
and good radios like the K3.  Makes
things easierbut the best filter I've found is your brain!  APF is good, 
but 
the good CW ops use a lot of
biological filtering.

Lee - K0WA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Robert Harmon]

I was thinking the same thing, I use the RIT all the time.

Bob
K6UJ


On Nov 14, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Bill Tippett wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, The Smiths  wrote:
> 
> You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's
>> why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover
>> that feature on the rig too...
>> 
> 
> :-))  I was responding to Pete's comment on "works well without tuning".
> APF is not usable "without tuning" unless everyone is zero beat within 5-10
> Hz.
> 
> I guess I need to learn how to use radios.  In 53 years on the air, Honor
> Roll at age 19 (before packet and lists), world high DXCC (331) on 160, all
> 6 current USA records on 10m (CQ WW, ARRL DX and CQ WPX, both modes), you'd
> think I'd have discovered RIT by now.
> 
> In fact I never use RIT because I prefer the big VFO knob.  I operate split
> even when in transceive so I never touch that dinky RIT knob.  But then what
> do I know?  ;-)
> 
> 73,  Bill  W4ZV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Pete Smith]

I've got to agree with The Smiths (whoever they are) on this one, Bill - 
the only thing I was trying to point out was that you don't need to find 
yourself to the Shift knob to move the APF around, if you tune it to the 
same point as your IF filter peak and tune with your RIT or the main tuning.

73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


On 11/14/2010 8:49 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's why we 
> have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover that 
> feature on the rig too...
>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:23:27 -0800
>> From: btipp...@alum.mit.edu
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>
>>
>>
>> Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
>>> I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to
>>> 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well
>>> without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always
>>> found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals.
>>>
>> Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its
>> APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM,
>> AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use
>> (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in
>> the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the
>> extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter.
>>
>> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
>> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
>> callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you
>> have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3.
>>
>> 73, Bill
>>
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> __
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>   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill Tippett]

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, The Smiths  wrote:

 You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's
> why we have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover
> that feature on the rig too...
>

:-))  I was responding to Pete's comment on "works well without tuning".
APF is not usable "without tuning" unless everyone is zero beat within 5-10
Hz.

I guess I need to learn how to use radios.  In 53 years on the air, Honor
Roll at age 19 (before packet and lists), world high DXCC (331) on 160, all
6 current USA records on 10m (CQ WW, ARRL DX and CQ WPX, both modes), you'd
think I'd have discovered RIT by now.

In fact I never use RIT because I prefer the big VFO knob.  I operate split
even when in transceive so I never touch that dinky RIT knob.  But then what
do I know?  ;-)

73,  Bill  W4ZV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[The Smiths]

You don't have to wait for someone else to Zero Beat you Bill, that's why we 
have the RIT control on your rig. Maybe it's time you should discover that 
feature on the rig too...
 
> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:23:27 -0800
> From: btipp...@alum.mit.edu
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
> 
> 
> 
> Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> > 
> > I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to 
> > 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well 
> > without tuning. That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always 
> > found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals.
> > 
> 
> Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its
> APF to be of much use. In fact it became one of several functions (like FM,
> AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use
> (FT-1000MP in 1996). I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in
> the same league as the FT-1000's APF. The 930 definitely did not have the
> extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter. 
> 
> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
> callers don't zero beat me that closely). Will be interested to see if you
> have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3.
> 
> 73, Bill
> 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Jim Brown]

On 11/14/2010 4:23 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
> callers don't zero beat me that closely).

YES!  That's exactly what I'm talking about with respect to it being 
difficult for contest operation.

  Jim
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Dale Parfitt]

 Hi Bill,
 I can vouch for the fact that the APF on the IC-7700 was of no use. One 
would have thought that that might have been an item to be updated on a 
newer firmware version- but it never was at least as long as I owned the 
rig.
Dale W4OP

> Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found 
> its
> APF to be of much use.  In fact it became one of several functions (like 
> FM,
> AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use
> (FT-1000MP in 1996).  I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in
> the same league as the FT-1000's APF.  The 930 definitely did not have the
> extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter.
>
> I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
> careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
> callers don't zero beat me that closely).  Will be interested to see if 
> you
> have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3.
>
> 73,  Bill
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5738666.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
> 
> I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to 
> 550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well 
> without tuning.  That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always 
> found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals.
> 

Pete I've had a TS-930S since 1984 (still works great) but I never found its
APF to be of much use.  In fact it became one of several functions (like FM,
AM and RIT) that never got the new worn off in some 12 years of daily use
(FT-1000MP in 1996).  I don't think any of the Kenwood or Icom APFs are in
the same league as the FT-1000's APF.  The 930 definitely did not have the
extremely narrow bandwidth/gain of the latter.  

I don't know if you've used the K3's APF yet but it definitely needs very
careful tuning to work right (i.e. within 5 Hz of a signal peak...and most
callers don't zero beat me that closely).  Will be interested to see if you
have the same opinion after you try APF in the K3.

73,  Bill

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Pete Smith]

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I have always tuned the APF to 
550 Hz, which is where my CW pitch is set, and find it works well 
without tuning.  That's the way my TS-930's APF worked, and I always 
found it very helpful even on moderate strength signals.

73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


On 11/14/2010 1:09 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> In general, I found the APF to be effective on some signals and a waste
> of time on others.  I also found it tricky to tune in, and thus not as
> effective in contest operation.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Jim Brown]

On 11/14/2010 4:20 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I also suggested the background noise issue to Joe.

This makes sense to me, Bill.  It's the noise that excites the ringing, 
and the TRANSIENT waveform of the noise  is almost certain to affect the 
extent of the ringing.  I have VERY limited experience with the Beta (a 
few QSOs in CWSS with 4.17 and a few more during OK/OM this weekend with 
4.21). The waveform of the CW probably also matters -- there was a LOT 
of flutter on the OK/OM signals here in CA.  Some of those OK/OM signals 
were also quite weak, but I didn't find the APF any more useful than a 
narrow IF setting in pulling them out.

In general, I found the APF to be effective on some signals and a waste 
of time on others.  I also found it tricky to tune in, and thus not as 
effective in contest operation.

As to Joe's measurements -- I've done a LOT of measurements, and I'd 
call these two sets of data he posted a dead heat.

FWIW -- I loaded 4.21 Friday afternoon and ran a couple of hours in 
OK/OM on 20M Saturday morning and about 8 hours in JIDX SSB.After 
loading 4.21, I also used a new version of K3 Util to recal TX power.  
No issues with the Beta.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[4X4DK-AMI SHAMI]

Wayne 

 

I also think that the background noise characteristic and intensity are the
major factors that influence 

 the performance of the APF, which seems to work very well.

 

Ami  

 

4X4DK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Steve has a serious point. I've used filters just like this for a good many
years on CW. One gets used to its effect and the "Gee Whiz!" response does
diminish. 

On the K3 (the only receiver I've use my external filters with that has such
variable bandwidth) I've noticed the effect varies greatly with the overall
bandwidth chosen as well, whether I'm using the internal APF or my external
active peaking filter. Might that be some of the difference people are
noticing? 

Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
The magic is only good for one shot Joe.
Same thing happened when I saw the Grand Canyon for the second time.

Steve


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Steve Ellington]

The magic is only good for one shot Joe.
Same thing happened when I saw the Grand Canyon for the second time.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
To: "Wayne Burdick" 
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF


>
>> I'm still in a quandry :)
>
> I am too .  The measured results are rather clear but I
> miss the "magic" results I saw with 4.16 ...
>
> The "feeling" I get with 4.21 is that the Q has been reduced
> compared to 4.16 but since the quantitative data shows that's
> obviously not the case, I'll just need to continue working
> with it to see if I can regain the magic.  Maybe it is just
> conditions ... noise levels have been a lot lower the last
> couple days but there haven't been as many weak signals either.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 11/13/2010 11:48 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Joe,
>>
>> If Lyle is using the same algorithm as before, and your results are as
>> indicated below (virtually a tie), I don't understand how you could be
>> hearing a "lack of ringing" in the new revision. I simply cannot hear
>> any difference myself, and I'm extremely picky. We have nearly 100
>> people testing, and only two or three have perceived a difference, so
>> given the statistical evidence, I'd suggest that background noise
>> conditions are the variable here, not the firmware. Lyle has also
>> completely reviewed the DSP implementation -- no change.
>>
>> But since the customers are always right, I'm still in a quandry :)
>>
>> tnx
>> Wayne
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>>>>> setting...
>>>
>>> Not on your life. The lack of ringing on the newer version seems to
>>> go along with a general decline in effectiveness. If anything I'd
>>> prefer to see higher Q.
>>>
>>> Just for grins I reloaded 4.16 to make the same measurements using the
>>> XG-2 as I made on 4.21. Here is the comparison:
>>>
>>> BW 4.21 4.16
>>> -
>>> 0 dB 1 2 Hz
>>> -1 dB 8 9 Hz
>>> -6 dB 31 31 Hz
>>> -10 dB 52 49 Hz
>>> -20 dB 165 162 Hz
>>> -30 dB 345 351 Hz
>>> Gain 9.0 9.1 dB
>>>
>>> Unlike W4ZV, I found only a 3 Hz offset in 4.16 (the peak response
>>> was 3 Hz above zero beat - or the indicated spot/shift frequency).
>>> Even though the test results were generally the same within the
>>> measurement tolerances, I still feel the 4.16 version was more effective
>>> in on air listening.
>>>
>>> These measurements were generated with an XG-2 set for 1 uV with the
>>> K3 attenuator engaged for an effective signal level of -118 dBm.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>> On 11/13/2010 8:07 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>>>> setting... At least a choice of 3 perhaps Wide, Med and Narrow. Even
>>>> if one perceives the APF as "less ringy" and comments on it being a
>>>> good thing, that means that they are happy to know that the Q got
>>>> widened out a little, and things seem to sound "better".
>>>>
>>>>> From: w5...@cybermesa.net
>>>>> To: li...@subich.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>>>> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:19:46 +
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>>>>>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>>>>>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>>>>>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>>>>>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't
>>>>> "pop"
>>>>> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of
>>>>> course, and
>>>>> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be 
>>>>> a
>>>>> matter of personal preference.
>>

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> I'm still in a quandry :)

I am too .  The measured results are rather clear but I
miss the "magic" results I saw with 4.16 ...

The "feeling" I get with 4.21 is that the Q has been reduced
compared to 4.16 but since the quantitative data shows that's
obviously not the case, I'll just need to continue working
with it to see if I can regain the magic.  Maybe it is just
conditions ... noise levels have been a lot lower the last
couple days but there haven't been as many weak signals either.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 11/13/2010 11:48 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> Joe,
>
> If Lyle is using the same algorithm as before, and your results are as
> indicated below (virtually a tie), I don't understand how you could be
> hearing a "lack of ringing" in the new revision. I simply cannot hear
> any difference myself, and I'm extremely picky. We have nearly 100
> people testing, and only two or three have perceived a difference, so
> given the statistical evidence, I'd suggest that background noise
> conditions are the variable here, not the firmware. Lyle has also
> completely reviewed the DSP implementation -- no change.
>
> But since the customers are always right, I'm still in a quandry :)
>
> tnx
> Wayne
>
> On Nov 13, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>>>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>>>> setting...
>>
>> Not on your life. The lack of ringing on the newer version seems to
>> go along with a general decline in effectiveness. If anything I'd
>> prefer to see higher Q.
>>
>> Just for grins I reloaded 4.16 to make the same measurements using the
>> XG-2 as I made on 4.21. Here is the comparison:
>>
>> BW 4.21 4.16
>> -
>> 0 dB 1 2 Hz
>> -1 dB 8 9 Hz
>> -6 dB 31 31 Hz
>> -10 dB 52 49 Hz
>> -20 dB 165 162 Hz
>> -30 dB 345 351 Hz
>> Gain 9.0 9.1 dB
>>
>> Unlike W4ZV, I found only a 3 Hz offset in 4.16 (the peak response
>> was 3 Hz above zero beat - or the indicated spot/shift frequency).
>> Even though the test results were generally the same within the
>> measurement tolerances, I still feel the 4.16 version was more effective
>> in on air listening.
>>
>> These measurements were generated with an XG-2 set for 1 uV with the
>> K3 attenuator engaged for an effective signal level of -118 dBm.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 11/13/2010 8:07 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>>> setting... At least a choice of 3 perhaps Wide, Med and Narrow. Even
>>> if one perceives the APF as "less ringy" and comments on it being a
>>> good thing, that means that they are happy to know that the Q got
>>> widened out a little, and things seem to sound "better".
>>>
>>>> From: w5...@cybermesa.net
>>>> To: li...@subich.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>>> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:19:46 +
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>>>
>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>>>>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>>>>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>>>>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>>>>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>>>
>>>> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't
>>>> "pop"
>>>> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of
>>>> course, and
>>>> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be a
>>>> matter of personal preference.
>>>>
>>>> I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time to
>>>> play
>>>> with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other
>>>> opinions. So
>>>> far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately "peaky".
>>>>
>>>> (Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)
>>>>
>>>> Bill W5WVO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
>>>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

wayne burdick wrote:
> 
> Joe,
> 
> If Lyle is using the same algorithm as before, and your results are as  
> indicated below (virtually a tie), I don't understand how you could be  
> hearing a "lack of ringing" in the new revision. I simply cannot hear  
> any difference myself, and I'm extremely picky. We have nearly 100  
> people testing, and only two or three have perceived a difference, so  
> given the statistical evidence, I'd suggest that background noise  
> conditions are the variable here, not the firmware. Lyle has also  
> completely reviewed the DSP implementation -- no change.
> 

I also suggested the background noise issue to Joe.  The bands have been
relatively quieter since the latest FW was released, and white noise (i.e.
galactic) does not cause the same amount of ringing as impulse noise (i.e.
lightning).  Therefore the quiescent state of APF may sound less "ringy"
than before. 

I listened to a very weak DS5USH on 80m this morning and the APF was very
effective at bringing him out of the noise.  I also did a few measurements
using the latest 5 Hz SHIFT.  The worst case attenuation (when off zerobeat
by 5 Hz) is <0.5 dB which is probably less than most ears will detect. 
However only ONE setting of SHIFT is optimum so you need to listen carefully
when adjusting.

73,  Bill

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Wayne Burdick]

Joe,

If Lyle is using the same algorithm as before, and your results are as  
indicated below (virtually a tie), I don't understand how you could be  
hearing a "lack of ringing" in the new revision. I simply cannot hear  
any difference myself, and I'm extremely picky. We have nearly 100  
people testing, and only two or three have perceived a difference, so  
given the statistical evidence, I'd suggest that background noise  
conditions are the variable here, not the firmware. Lyle has also  
completely reviewed the DSP implementation -- no change.

But since the customers are always right, I'm still in a quandry  :)

tnx
Wayne

On Nov 13, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>>> setting...
>
> Not on your life.  The lack of ringing on the newer version seems to
> go along with a general decline in effectiveness.  If anything I'd
> prefer to see higher Q.
>
> Just for grins I reloaded 4.16 to make the same measurements using the
> XG-2 as I made on 4.21.  Here is the comparison:
>
>BW 4.21   4.16
>  -
>0 dB   1  2   Hz
>   -1 dB   8  9   Hz
>   -6 dB  31 31   Hz
>  -10 dB  52 49   Hz
>  -20 dB 165162   Hz
>  -30 dB 345351   Hz
>Gain 9.09.1   dB
>
> Unlike W4ZV, I found only a 3 Hz offset in 4.16 (the peak response
> was 3 Hz above zero beat - or the indicated spot/shift frequency).
> Even though the test results were generally the same within the
> measurement tolerances, I still feel the 4.16 version was more  
> effective
> in on air listening.
>
> These measurements were generated with an XG-2 set for 1 uV with the
> K3 attenuator engaged for an effective signal level of -118 dBm.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 11/13/2010 8:07 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>>
>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q  
>> setting... At least a choice of 3 perhaps Wide, Med and Narrow.   
>> Even if one perceives the APF as "less ringy" and comments on it  
>> being a good thing, that means that they are happy to know that the  
>> Q got widened out a little, and things seem to sound "better".
>>
>>> From: w5...@cybermesa.net
>>> To: li...@subich.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:19:46 +
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>>
>>> Joe wrote:
>>>
>>>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>>>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>>>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>>>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>>>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>>
>>> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals  
>>> don't "pop"
>>> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of  
>>> course, and
>>> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to  
>>> be a
>>> matter of personal preference.
>>>
>>> I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time  
>>> to play
>>> with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other  
>>> opinions. So
>>> far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately  
>>> "peaky".
>>>
>>> (Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)
>>>
>>> Bill W5WVO
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
>>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>>
>>>
>>> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
>>> the AFV/dBV capability ...
>>>
>>> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
>>> the 1 dB points are 8 Hz wide
>>> the 6 dB points are 31 Hz wide
>>> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
>>> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
>>> gain is right at 9 dB.
>>>
>>> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
>>> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
>>> signal.
>>>
>>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>>> than the original 

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Wes Stewart]

Probably why it sounds the same to me.

Wes

--- On Sat, 11/13/10, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
The APF algorithm is unchanged. Lyle is going to verify. 

Wayne





  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

>> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q
>> setting...

Not on your life.  The lack of ringing on the newer version seems to
go along with a general decline in effectiveness.  If anything I'd
prefer to see higher Q.

Just for grins I reloaded 4.16 to make the same measurements using the
XG-2 as I made on 4.21.  Here is the comparison:

BW 4.21   4.16
  -
0 dB1  2   Hz
   -1 dB8  9   Hz
   -6 dB   31 31   Hz
  -10 dB   52 49   Hz
  -20 dB  165162   Hz
  -30 dB  345351   Hz
Gain  9.09.1   dB

Unlike W4ZV, I found only a 3 Hz offset in 4.16 (the peak response
was 3 Hz above zero beat - or the indicated spot/shift frequency).
Even though the test results were generally the same within the
measurement tolerances, I still feel the 4.16 version was more effective 
in on air listening.

These measurements were generated with an XG-2 set for 1 uV with the
K3 attenuator engaged for an effective signal level of -118 dBm.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 11/13/2010 8:07 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>
> I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q setting... 
> At least a choice of 3 perhaps Wide, Med and Narrow.  Even if one perceives 
> the APF as "less ringy" and comments on it being a good thing, that means 
> that they are happy to know that the Q got widened out a little, and things 
> seem to sound "better".
>
>> From: w5...@cybermesa.net
>> To: li...@subich.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:19:46 +
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>
>> Joe wrote:
>>
>>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>
>> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't "pop"
>> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of course, and
>> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be a
>> matter of personal preference.
>>
>> I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time to play
>> with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other opinions. So
>> far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately "peaky".
>>
>> (Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)
>>
>> Bill W5WVO
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
>>
>>
>> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
>> the AFV/dBV capability ...
>>
>> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
>> the 1 dB points are 8 Hz wide
>> the 6 dB points are 31 Hz wide
>> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
>> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
>> gain is right at 9 dB.
>>
>> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
>> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
>> signal.
>>
>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>>>
>>> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
>>> with
>>> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak
>>> is
>>> now
>>> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>>>
>>> Zero beat = 7040.021
>>> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
>>> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
>>> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>>>
>>> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
>>> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
>>> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>>>
>>> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
>>> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's
>>> 30
>>> Hz
>>> design goal. As mentioned

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

The Smiths wrote:
> 
> 
> Are you sure that the problem isn't your REF CAL settings are off from
> where you think they are?
> 

Quite sure...Lyle verified the +10 Hz offset and corrected it in the latest
version.

73,  Bill

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[The Smiths]

Are you sure that the problem isn't your REF CAL settings are off from where 
you think they are?
 
> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:02:43 -0800
> From: btipp...@alum.mit.edu
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
> 
> 
> 
> KK7P wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> The APF algorithm is unchanged. Lyle is going to verify.
> > 
> > They are identical.
> > 
> 
> Maybe not quite identical. The new algorithm is zero beat and the initial
> one peaked at +10 Hz above zero beat. It could be that guys were not tuning
> to the actual peak so the residual ringing could have been several dB
> stronger than the signal (relatively) making one think there was more
> ringing. Now the zero beat signal may appear stronger than the residual
> ringing (on noise) since it is better centered. BTW the filter response
> measures about -4 dB at a 10 Hz offset, which is quite noticeable on weak
> signals.
> 
> I personally don't notice any difference but I had been peaking each signal
> using VFO-FINE in 1 Hz steps (which is how I found the +10 Hz offset in the
> initial version). 
> 
> 73, Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-APF-tp5735159p5736422.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[The Smiths]

I'll count this as another vote in favor of adding the Variable Q setting... At 
least a choice of 3 perhaps Wide, Med and Narrow.  Even if one perceives the 
APF as "less ringy" and comments on it being a good thing, that means that they 
are happy to know that the Q got widened out a little, and things seem to sound 
"better". 
 
> From: w5...@cybermesa.net
> To: li...@subich.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 21:19:46 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
> 
> Joe wrote:
> 
> > I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
> > test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
> > than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
> > this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
> > the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
> 
> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't "pop" 
> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of course, and 
> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be a 
> matter of personal preference.
> 
> I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time to play 
> with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other opinions. So 
> far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately "peaky".
> 
> (Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)
> 
> Bill W5WVO
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
> 
> 
> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
> the AFV/dBV capability ...
> 
> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
> the 1 dB points are 8 Hz wide
> the 6 dB points are 31 Hz wide
> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
> gain is right at 9 dB.
> 
> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
> signal.
> 
> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
> 
> 73,
> 
> ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> >
> > For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
> > with
> > measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak 
> > is
> > now
> > zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
> >
> > Zero beat = 7040.021
> > Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
> > -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
> > -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
> >
> > Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
> > -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
> > -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
> >
> > I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
> > interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 
> > 30
> > Hz
> > design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when 
> > trying
> > to
> > detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
> > difference in marginal conditions.
> >
> > I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
> > which is
> > very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.
> >
> > Nice job Elecraft!
> >
> > 73, Bill
> >
> >
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

KK7P wrote:
> 
> 
>> The APF algorithm is unchanged. Lyle is going to verify.
> 
> They are identical.
> 

Maybe not quite identical.  The new algorithm is zero beat and the initial
one peaked at +10 Hz above zero beat.  It could be that guys were not tuning
to the actual peak so the residual ringing could have been several dB
stronger than the signal (relatively) making one think there was more
ringing.  Now the zero beat signal may appear stronger than the residual
ringing (on noise) since it is better centered.  BTW the filter response
measures about -4 dB at a 10 Hz offset, which is quite noticeable on weak
signals.

I personally don't notice any difference but I had been peaking each signal
using VFO-FINE in 1 Hz steps (which is how I found the +10 Hz offset in the
initial version).  

73,  Bill






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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF (alpha 4.21)

[Jim Cox]

I agree, I like the newer version as the ringing is much less now.
Jim K4JAF


- Original Message - 
From: "K9ZTV" 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF (alpha 4.21)


>I agree with Joe.
>
> My first impression was a "quieter" APF (if that's the right word).  The
> "peaking" is certainly there, and signals that are not copyable at 50
> cycles are definitely copyable with the new APF activated (provided
> there is a copyable signal at all).  But the peaked signal doesn't take
> your breath away like it did on the earlier version.  Frankly, I prefer
> this newer "tamed" (if you will) iteration.  It certainly has less
> ringing.  You can't have both "blasting" and "no ringing" at the same
> time.  There has to be a sweet spot and I believe version 4.21 nails it.
>
> I think there was some early confusion about what exactly is "frozen"
> when the APF is turned on.  It is the SHIFT that is locked, not the
> WIDTH.  The WIDTH control is still fully functional in APF mode with the
> bandwidth still being clearly indicated both numerically (0.05 and up)
> and by the normal width-varying graphic.  When the APF is turned on, the
> normal DUAL PB icon we have grown used to that incorporates
> upward-pointing winglets is still displayed, but in APF mode the
> winglets are positioned at the extreme ends of the line and are fixed.
> They do not change position when the WIDTH control is rotated (as they
> do when in normal DUAL PB mode).  The middle-bars between the winglets
> that show passband width DO change (as they always have) to visually
> indicate the change of bandwidth.  Fixing the winglets and locating them
> at the far ends of the graphic display is a great idea and gives further
> feedback that you are definitely in APF mode and not DUAL-PB mode.  I
> doubt anyone will confuse the two because (as in the earlier version)
> you have to enable the APF mode in menu item CONFIG: DUAL PB.
>
> The SSB problem in version 4.18 that required higher settings of CMP and
> ALC has been fixed.  My MH2 microphone delivers the recommended 5-7 bars
> of ALC and 2-3 bars of CMP at MIC=16 and CMP=13.  These are the nominal
> settings I have always run when circumstances force me to pull the mic
> out of the drawer.  For some reason the boys on the Missouri SSB Traffic
> Net get real agitated when I check-in using a paddle.
>
> Great job, Lyle, et al.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
> SN 21
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/13/2010 2:35 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
>> the AFV/dBV capability ...
>>
>> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
>> the  1 dB points are   8 Hz wide
>> the  6 dB points are  31 Hz wide
>> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
>> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
>> gain is right at 9 dB.
>>
>> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
>> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
>> signal.
>>
>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>  ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>>
>>> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They 
>>> agree
>>> with
>>> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter 
>>> peak is
>>> now
>>> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>>>
>>> Zero beat = 7040.021
>>> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
>>> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
>>> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>>>
>>> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
>>> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
>>> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>>>
>>> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was 
>>> more
>>> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with 
>>> Lyle's 30
>>> Hz
>>> design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when 
>>> trying
>>> to
>>> detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
>>> difference in marginal conditions.
>>>
>>> I also checked the gain (APF vs not) w

Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF (alpha 4.21)

[K9ZTV]

I agree with Joe.

My first impression was a "quieter" APF (if that's the right word).  The 
"peaking" is certainly there, and signals that are not copyable at 50 
cycles are definitely copyable with the new APF activated (provided 
there is a copyable signal at all).  But the peaked signal doesn't take 
your breath away like it did on the earlier version.  Frankly, I prefer 
this newer "tamed" (if you will) iteration.  It certainly has less 
ringing.  You can't have both "blasting" and "no ringing" at the same 
time.  There has to be a sweet spot and I believe version 4.21 nails it.

I think there was some early confusion about what exactly is "frozen" 
when the APF is turned on.  It is the SHIFT that is locked, not the 
WIDTH.  The WIDTH control is still fully functional in APF mode with the 
bandwidth still being clearly indicated both numerically (0.05 and up) 
and by the normal width-varying graphic.  When the APF is turned on, the 
normal DUAL PB icon we have grown used to that incorporates 
upward-pointing winglets is still displayed, but in APF mode the 
winglets are positioned at the extreme ends of the line and are fixed.  
They do not change position when the WIDTH control is rotated (as they 
do when in normal DUAL PB mode).  The middle-bars between the winglets 
that show passband width DO change (as they always have) to visually 
indicate the change of bandwidth.  Fixing the winglets and locating them 
at the far ends of the graphic display is a great idea and gives further 
feedback that you are definitely in APF mode and not DUAL-PB mode.  I 
doubt anyone will confuse the two because (as in the earlier version) 
you have to enable the APF mode in menu item CONFIG: DUAL PB.

The SSB problem in version 4.18 that required higher settings of CMP and 
ALC has been fixed.  My MH2 microphone delivers the recommended 5-7 bars 
of ALC and 2-3 bars of CMP at MIC=16 and CMP=13.  These are the nominal 
settings I have always run when circumstances force me to pull the mic 
out of the drawer.  For some reason the boys on the Missouri SSB Traffic 
Net get real agitated when I check-in using a paddle.

Great job, Lyle, et al.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
SN 21







On 11/13/2010 2:35 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
> the AFV/dBV capability ...
>
> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
> the  1 dB points are   8 Hz wide
> the  6 dB points are  31 Hz wide
> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
> gain is right at 9 dB.
>
> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
> signal.
>
> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
>> with
>> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak is
>> now
>> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>>
>> Zero beat = 7040.021
>> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
>> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
>> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>>
>> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
>> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
>> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>>
>> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
>> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 30
>> Hz
>> design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when trying
>> to
>> detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
>> difference in marginal conditions.
>>
>> I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
>> which is
>> very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.
>>
>> Nice job Elecraft!
>>
>> 73, Bill
>>
>>
>>  
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>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Lyle Johnson]

> The APF algorithm is unchanged. Lyle is going to verify.

They are identical.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Wayne Burdick]

The APF algorithm is unchanged. Lyle is going to verify. 

Wayne


http://www.elecraft.com

On Nov 13, 2010, at 1:19 PM, "Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO"  
wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> 
>> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
>> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
>> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
>> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
>> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
> 
> Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't "pop" 
> as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of course, and 
> the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be a 
> matter of personal preference.
> 
> I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time to play 
> with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other opinions. So 
> far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately "peaky".
> 
> (Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)
> 
> Bill W5WVO
> 
> 
> -----Original Message- 
> From: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF
> 
> 
> I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
> the AFV/dBV capability ...
> 
> I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
> the  1 dB points are   8 Hz wide
> the  6 dB points are  31 Hz wide
> the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
> the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
> gain is right at 9 dB.
> 
> The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
> 1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
> signal.
> 
> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.
> 
> 73,
> 
>... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>> 
>> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
>> with
>> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak 
>> is
>> now
>> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>> 
>> Zero beat = 7040.021
>> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
>> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
>> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>> 
>> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
>> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
>> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>> 
>> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
>> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 
>> 30
>> Hz
>> design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when 
>> trying
>> to
>> detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
>> difference in marginal conditions.
>> 
>> I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
>> which is
>> very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.
>> 
>> Nice job Elecraft!
>> 
>> 73, Bill
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

Joe wrote:

> I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
> test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
> than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
> this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
> the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.

Joe, I agree with your subjective observation. No, the signals don't "pop" 
as much -- but there is less ringing. This is a trade-off, of course, and 
the precise balance of peak gain versus ringing is always going to be a 
matter of personal preference.

I like this less-ringy version better, I think. Haven't had time to play 
with it a lot yet, but I will. I'm sure we will see many other opinions. So 
far, I think the current version is very smooth and adequately "peaky".

(Opinion subject to revision upon more extensive usage.)

Bill W5WVO


-Original Message- 
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 20:35
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF


I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
the AFV/dBV capability ...

I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
the  1 dB points are   8 Hz wide
the  6 dB points are  31 Hz wide
the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
gain is right at 9 dB.

The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
signal.

I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
> with
> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak 
> is
> now
> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>
> Zero beat = 7040.021
> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>
> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>
> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 
> 30
> Hz
> design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when 
> trying
> to
> detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
> difference in marginal conditions.
>
> I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
> which is
> very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.
>
> Nice job Elecraft!
>
> 73, Bill
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

I made a similar set of measurements ... using the XG-2 and
the AFV/dBV capability ...

I measure the peak at 1 Hz wide (e.g. -.1dB +/- 1 Hz)
the  1 dB points are   8 Hz wide
the  6 dB points are  31 Hz wide
the 20 dB points are 165 Hz wide
the 30 dB points are 345 Hz wide
gain is right at 9 dB.

The measurements were made on 40 Meters with the XG-2 set to
1 uV and the K3 attenuator activated yielding a -108 dBm test
signal.

I did not make similar measurements with the original alpha
test version but this version seems subjectively less tight
than the original ... there is certainly less ringing with
this one but signals did not seem to "pop" like they did on
the earlier version when I tried it last night on 160/80/40.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 11/13/2010 1:24 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
> For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
> with
> measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak is
> now
> zero beat instead of +10 Hz:
>
> Zero beat = 7040.021
> Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
> -1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
> -6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)
>
> Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
> -1 dB = 8 Hz BW
> -6 dB = 28 Hz BW
>
> I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
> interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 30
> Hz
> design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when trying
> to
> detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
> difference in marginal conditions.
>
> I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
> which is
> very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.
>
> Nice job Elecraft!
>
> 73, Bill
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 APF

[Bill W4ZV]

For my own curiosity I did some measurements of the latest APF. They agree
with
measurements of the first release with the exception that the filter peak is
now
zero beat instead of +10 Hz:

Zero beat = 7040.021
Flat passband = 021-020 (both 0.0 to -0.1 dB)
-1 dB passband = 026-018 (-1.2 dB and -0.8 dB)
-6 dB passband = 037-009 (-5.8 and -6.0 dB)

Flat = 2 Hz BW (at zero beat)
-1 dB = 8 Hz BW
-6 dB = 28 Hz BW

I didn't measure the -6 dB BW carefully on the first pass since I was more
interested in the -1 dB BW, but this looks similar and agrees with Lyle's 30
Hz
design goal. As mentioned previously, the -1 dB BW is important when trying
to
detect signals below the noise floor since the human ear can detect this
difference in marginal conditions.

I also checked the gain (APF vs not) which I didn't do before...+9.1 dB
which is
very close to Lyle's design goal of +9 dB.

Nice job Elecraft!

73, Bill


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[Elecraft] K3 APF

[Amateur Radio Operator N5GE]

Outstanding!

I have been spotting and working weak signal DX on 40m tonight.  I am able to
copy and work stations with S-3 signals on 40m here in TX with the APF On.

I worked ZL2MS and was able to give him a 549 report.  We were both running
100w.  His antenna a GP and mine a half sloper.  His report to me was 349, so I
believe my advantage was the APF.  It cuts right through the noise on 40m here
in Arlington, TX.

The filter in the rig is the 250Hz CW filter.

Good Job Y'All

Oh, and I am finding these weak signals with my new P3 ;o)

73,

Tom Childers
Radio Amateur N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Member 35102

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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF Access Suggestion

[Alexandr Kobranov]

Wow!
Will try - thanks for this idea, very useful!

Thanks,
73!

L. -dst-


Dne 9.11.2010 12:46, DC1RS napsal(a):
>
> And this will also even work when config DUAL BP is switched to normal. You
> will have APF on/off on I/II and Dual BP on Long Press of XFIL. That's how I
> use APF.
>
> 73 de Roland, DC1RS
>
> -
> K3/100 #1243, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-2.1K, KFL3A-400, KRX3, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-400,
> KAT3, KXV3A
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF Access Suggestion

[DC1RS]

And this will also even work when config DUAL BP is switched to normal. You
will have APF on/off on I/II and Dual BP on Long Press of XFIL. That's how I
use APF. 

73 de Roland, DC1RS

-
K3/100 #1243, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-2.1K, KFL3A-400, KRX3, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-400,
KAT3, KXV3A
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF Access Suggestion

[Alexandr Kobranov]

Just info how I am using APF on/off:
I am not using XFIL/DUAL PB button for APF activation/deactivation 
during standard operation.
I have pre-set NORM I as 400Hz roofing w/o APF and NORM II as 1khz 
roofing with APF.
So only switching between NORM I/II activate/deactivate APF, then I 
can change width with WIDHT knob if needed etc.
If there is serious need for switching between DUAL PB/APF it is 
possible as described (going to CONFIG:)or by some macro on PF1 or PF2 
buttons or later by firmware by some hold/long hold of XFIL button.

For now I am happy with this setting but YMMV as used to say ;-)

Thanks for this option, it is really great tool for my 160m RX!

73!
Lexa, OK1DST


Dne 9.11.2010 11:54, Bill McDowell napsal(a):
> APF works well I think and its button access is properly placed on the front 
> panel.  What would make access easier for those who think changing between 
> APF and Dual PB on the fly is necessary, would be  to make the Config Menu 
> remember its last setting after a power cycle.
>
> One could then leave Dual PB to be the first config menu item seen when 
> returning to the radio after powering down.  Changing from NOR to APF is 
> fast.  Now one has to scroll through all the items searching for Dual PB (or 
> any other desired entry).  This is neither quick or easy.
>
> My TS-480 has this feature of a "sticky" menu and it is quite convenient.
>
> 73
> Bill, K4CIA
>
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[Elecraft] (K3) APF Access Suggestion

[Bill McDowell]

APF works well I think and its button access is properly placed on the front 
panel.  What would make access easier for those who think changing between APF 
and Dual PB on the fly is necessary, would be  to make the Config Menu remember 
its last setting after a power cycle.  

One could then leave Dual PB to be the first config menu item seen when 
returning to the radio after powering down.  Changing from NOR to APF is fast.  
Now one has to scroll through all the items searching for Dual PB (or any other 
desired entry).  This is neither quick or easy.

My TS-480 has this feature of a "sticky" menu and it is quite convenient.

73
Bill, K4CIA

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