Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Gary]

Ditto Jim

-Original Message-
From: "Jim Rhodes" <j...@rhodesend.net>
Sent: ‎18/‎09/‎2016 4:51 AM
To: "Alan. G4GNX" <g4...@theatreorgans.co.uk>
Cc: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

Nothing to add except that I have never owned  tranceiver that did not
sound better on headphones or an external speaker(s).

On Sep 17, 2016 8:02 AM, "Alan. G4GNX" <g4...@theatreorgans.co.uk> wrote:

> Well guys (and gals) so far there have been 34 replies on this thread and
> I'm grateful for every one of them.
>
> I guess we need to try out forming some kind of hood to see if that will
> work for the complainers and if that fails we may need to try an external
> speaker.
>
> We actually had one guy last week (who is the main complainer) who boldly
> stated that he was a hi-fi buff and I just groaned silently! I also agree
> with the appliance-operator syndrome, where "it's no good unless it's
> totally plug and play"!
>
> Several points come to mind:
>
> The comparison with the IC7300 seems to be a fair one to me, because that
> rig also has an upward facing internal speaker and we did disconnect the
> external speaker to check. To my ears (and several others) the IC7300 had
> far better "quality" audio, but that said it is probably not optimum for
> Amateur communications, which is what many don't seem to realise is what we
> are 'actually' trying to achieve.
>
> It may pay us to find time to experiment with the DSP settings with the
> complainers in the same room but unable to see the adjustments, to see if
> they can be appeased, but I have my doubts because I suspect that the
> prejudice is already well entrenched.
>
> I brought the IC7300 home and compared it with my IC7100 and it didn't
> show a great deal of difference, perhaps slightly better because the IC7300
> is in a bigger enclosure. I haven't yet made a comparison with my own K3.
>
> One of the greatest problems with club owned equipment is the variation in
> members' preferences as well as poor test conditions. In a large room with
> many people, it's impossible to keep them all quiet and some folks seem to
> think it's OK to stand right next to the operator/s and discuss some other
> topic - LOUDLY. The only answer there seems to be headphones. The same goes
> for filed days/contests.
>
> Perhaps we should start to wind this thread up now before it outstays its
> welcome? :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
> -Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 1:58 AM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality
>
> I was not going to "chime in" on this thread because that "horse" has
> been thoroughly beat to death in the past.
>
> Let's face it, a small speaker like that used in the K3/K3S is not going
> to produce astounding bass and since it faces upwards away from your
> ears, the high frequency sounds are going to get lost.
> I believe it does exceptionally well for its size and quality.
>
> If you want good quality speaker audio from your K3/K3S, you are going
> to have to use external speakers - pick your quality there too.  I use a
> pair of old Radio Shack Optimus speakers that I picked up for cheap at a
> 2nd hand store.  The 4 inch drivers sound great with my K3, but being 4
> inch drivers they are not expected to produce 'resounding bass', but
> that is not required for communications.  The internal speaker sounds
> worse by comparison, but is usable if the external speakers are not
> available.
>
> So, if you are comparing the audio between two radios, don't rely on the
> internal speakers.  Connect each one to good quality speakers - that way
> you are comparing the radio's audio, and not the quality of the internal
> speakers.  Some radios produce better quality audio from their internal
> speakers than others - for instance the KX3 internal speaker is far
> inferior to the internal speaker used in the KX2.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jim Rhodes]

Nothing to add except that I have never owned  tranceiver that did not
sound better on headphones or an external speaker(s).

On Sep 17, 2016 8:02 AM, "Alan. G4GNX" <g4...@theatreorgans.co.uk> wrote:

> Well guys (and gals) so far there have been 34 replies on this thread and
> I'm grateful for every one of them.
>
> I guess we need to try out forming some kind of hood to see if that will
> work for the complainers and if that fails we may need to try an external
> speaker.
>
> We actually had one guy last week (who is the main complainer) who boldly
> stated that he was a hi-fi buff and I just groaned silently! I also agree
> with the appliance-operator syndrome, where "it's no good unless it's
> totally plug and play"!
>
> Several points come to mind:
>
> The comparison with the IC7300 seems to be a fair one to me, because that
> rig also has an upward facing internal speaker and we did disconnect the
> external speaker to check. To my ears (and several others) the IC7300 had
> far better "quality" audio, but that said it is probably not optimum for
> Amateur communications, which is what many don't seem to realise is what we
> are 'actually' trying to achieve.
>
> It may pay us to find time to experiment with the DSP settings with the
> complainers in the same room but unable to see the adjustments, to see if
> they can be appeased, but I have my doubts because I suspect that the
> prejudice is already well entrenched.
>
> I brought the IC7300 home and compared it with my IC7100 and it didn't
> show a great deal of difference, perhaps slightly better because the IC7300
> is in a bigger enclosure. I haven't yet made a comparison with my own K3.
>
> One of the greatest problems with club owned equipment is the variation in
> members' preferences as well as poor test conditions. In a large room with
> many people, it's impossible to keep them all quiet and some folks seem to
> think it's OK to stand right next to the operator/s and discuss some other
> topic - LOUDLY. The only answer there seems to be headphones. The same goes
> for filed days/contests.
>
> Perhaps we should start to wind this thread up now before it outstays its
> welcome? :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
> -Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 1:58 AM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality
>
> I was not going to "chime in" on this thread because that "horse" has
> been thoroughly beat to death in the past.
>
> Let's face it, a small speaker like that used in the K3/K3S is not going
> to produce astounding bass and since it faces upwards away from your
> ears, the high frequency sounds are going to get lost.
> I believe it does exceptionally well for its size and quality.
>
> If you want good quality speaker audio from your K3/K3S, you are going
> to have to use external speakers - pick your quality there too.  I use a
> pair of old Radio Shack Optimus speakers that I picked up for cheap at a
> 2nd hand store.  The 4 inch drivers sound great with my K3, but being 4
> inch drivers they are not expected to produce 'resounding bass', but
> that is not required for communications.  The internal speaker sounds
> worse by comparison, but is usable if the external speakers are not
> available.
>
> So, if you are comparing the audio between two radios, don't rely on the
> internal speakers.  Connect each one to good quality speakers - that way
> you are comparing the radio's audio, and not the quality of the internal
> speakers.  Some radios produce better quality audio from their internal
> speakers than others - for instance the KX3 internal speaker is far
> inferior to the internal speaker used in the KX2.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to jimk...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Alan. G4GNX]

Well guys (and gals) so far there have been 34 replies on this thread and 
I'm grateful for every one of them.


I guess we need to try out forming some kind of hood to see if that will 
work for the complainers and if that fails we may need to try an external 
speaker.


We actually had one guy last week (who is the main complainer) who boldly 
stated that he was a hi-fi buff and I just groaned silently! I also agree 
with the appliance-operator syndrome, where "it's no good unless it's 
totally plug and play"!


Several points come to mind:

The comparison with the IC7300 seems to be a fair one to me, because that 
rig also has an upward facing internal speaker and we did disconnect the 
external speaker to check. To my ears (and several others) the IC7300 had 
far better "quality" audio, but that said it is probably not optimum for 
Amateur communications, which is what many don't seem to realise is what we 
are 'actually' trying to achieve.


It may pay us to find time to experiment with the DSP settings with the 
complainers in the same room but unable to see the adjustments, to see if 
they can be appeased, but I have my doubts because I suspect that the 
prejudice is already well entrenched.


I brought the IC7300 home and compared it with my IC7100 and it didn't show 
a great deal of difference, perhaps slightly better because the IC7300 is in 
a bigger enclosure. I haven't yet made a comparison with my own K3.


One of the greatest problems with club owned equipment is the variation in 
members' preferences as well as poor test conditions. In a large room with 
many people, it's impossible to keep them all quiet and some folks seem to 
think it's OK to stand right next to the operator/s and discuss some other 
topic - LOUDLY. The only answer there seems to be headphones. The same goes 
for filed days/contests.


Perhaps we should start to wind this thread up now before it outstays its 
welcome? :-)


73,

Alan. G4GNX

-Original Message- 
From: Don Wilhelm

Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 1:58 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

I was not going to "chime in" on this thread because that "horse" has
been thoroughly beat to death in the past.

Let's face it, a small speaker like that used in the K3/K3S is not going
to produce astounding bass and since it faces upwards away from your
ears, the high frequency sounds are going to get lost.
I believe it does exceptionally well for its size and quality.

If you want good quality speaker audio from your K3/K3S, you are going
to have to use external speakers - pick your quality there too.  I use a
pair of old Radio Shack Optimus speakers that I picked up for cheap at a
2nd hand store.  The 4 inch drivers sound great with my K3, but being 4
inch drivers they are not expected to produce 'resounding bass', but
that is not required for communications.  The internal speaker sounds
worse by comparison, but is usable if the external speakers are not
available.

So, if you are comparing the audio between two radios, don't rely on the
internal speakers.  Connect each one to good quality speakers - that way
you are comparing the radio's audio, and not the quality of the internal
speakers.  Some radios produce better quality audio from their internal
speakers than others - for instance the KX3 internal speaker is far
inferior to the internal speaker used in the KX2.

73,
Don W3FPR 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> Consider a baritone against a soprano on the same settings.  I think
> we need to hear from Jim on how they adjust the mixer settings for
> each person, news or music

The way EQ settings are adjusted in a recording studio or FM broadcast
(where one is concerned with 20 Hz to 15 or 20 KHz) has *no bearing* in
*communications* service.  As Jim and others have already pointed out,
Ma Bell learned nearly 90 years ago that 300 Hz to 2700 Hz works just
as well for the baritone (or basso profundo) as the soprano (or even
coloratura).  Even news/talk does minimal vocal equalization leaving
that to the preemphasis/deemphasis built into the transmission system.

When it comes to communications, the fundamental tone of the voice is
not [so] important ... what is important is overtone structure and
that is transmitted better in the 300 - 2700 Hz range than a 100 (or
50) Hz to 2200 Hz range for a baritone/basso profundo as the power
is concentrated in the frequency range critical for intelligibility.

With either the baritone or soprano, the speaking voice has very little
useful *power* above 3 KHz.  In RF systems (and old unequalized phone
circuits), there is more broadband noise than actual voice energy above
3 KHz so a 3 KHz roll-off improves intelligibility and reduces "listing
fatigue".


73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 9/16/2016 8:27 PM, Mel Farrer wrote:

Joe and all,
Isn't this where the rubber hits the road?  That is while your EQ settings are 
OK  It does not address the audio spectrum generated by the speaker.

Consider a baritone against a soprano on the same settings.  I think we need to 
hear from Jim on how they adjust the mixer settings for each person, news or 
music
Thanks.

Mel, K6KBE


  From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <li...@subich.com>
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 5:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality


EQ settings here:

SSB: -16, -16, -6, 0, 0, +3,  +5,  -6

CW:  -16,  -3,  0, 0, 0, -6, -10, -12

SSB setting are designed to roll off low frequency QRM,
provide some "presence" in the 1200-2800 Hz range essential
for intelligibility and roll off high frequency hiss, noise
and QRM.

Those who like "full range" audio (ESSB QRM generators) will
be appalled at the low frequency cut but it makes a big
improvement in intelligibility in most conditions.  Audio at
100 Hz and below is absolutely not needed for communication.

CW Settings are designed to roll off outside my CW listening
range.  My "pitch" is 460 Hz so I keep 200 - 800 Hz flat and
cut above/below a 600-700 Hz passband.  If one is using a
higher "pitch" it would be worthwhile changing the 1600 Hz
band from -6 to 0.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 9/16/2016 5:14 PM, Rich wrote:

Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?

Rich

K3RWN


On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:

When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5
speaker to
go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to
the
second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the
FT1000D and
the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I
felt
I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made
him
turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell
which
was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make
changes to
a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The
beauty of
the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the
sound to
personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Don Wilhelm]

I was not going to "chime in" on this thread because that "horse" has 
been thoroughly beat to death in the past.


Let's face it, a small speaker like that used in the K3/K3S is not going 
to produce astounding bass and since it faces upwards away from your 
ears, the high frequency sounds are going to get lost.

I believe it does exceptionally well for its size and quality.

If you want good quality speaker audio from your K3/K3S, you are going 
to have to use external speakers - pick your quality there too.  I use a 
pair of old Radio Shack Optimus speakers that I picked up for cheap at a 
2nd hand store.  The 4 inch drivers sound great with my K3, but being 4 
inch drivers they are not expected to produce 'resounding bass', but 
that is not required for communications.  The internal speaker sounds 
worse by comparison, but is usable if the external speakers are not 
available.


So, if you are comparing the audio between two radios, don't rely on the 
internal speakers.  Connect each one to good quality speakers - that way 
you are comparing the radio's audio, and not the quality of the internal 
speakers.  Some radios produce better quality audio from their internal 
speakers than others - for instance the KX3 internal speaker is far 
inferior to the internal speaker used in the KX2.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/16/2016 8:27 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Joe and all,
Isn't this where the rubber hits the road?  That is while your EQ settings are 
OK  It does not address the audio spectrum generated by the speaker.

Consider a baritone against a soprano on the same settings.  I think we need to 
hear from Jim on how they adjust the mixer settings for each person, news or 
music
Thanks.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Mel Farrer via Elecraft]

Joe and all,
Isn't this where the rubber hits the road?  That is while your EQ settings are 
OK  It does not address the audio spectrum generated by the speaker.  

Consider a baritone against a soprano on the same settings.  I think we need to 
hear from Jim on how they adjust the mixer settings for each person, news or 
music
Thanks.  

Mel, K6KBE


  From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <li...@subich.com>
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 5:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality
   

EQ settings here:

SSB: -16, -16, -6, 0, 0, +3,  +5,  -6

CW:  -16,  -3,  0, 0, 0, -6, -10, -12

SSB setting are designed to roll off low frequency QRM,
provide some "presence" in the 1200-2800 Hz range essential
for intelligibility and roll off high frequency hiss, noise
and QRM.

Those who like "full range" audio (ESSB QRM generators) will
be appalled at the low frequency cut but it makes a big
improvement in intelligibility in most conditions.  Audio at
100 Hz and below is absolutely not needed for communication.

CW Settings are designed to roll off outside my CW listening
range.  My "pitch" is 460 Hz so I keep 200 - 800 Hz flat and
cut above/below a 600-700 Hz passband.  If one is using a
higher "pitch" it would be worthwhile changing the 1600 Hz
band from -6 to 0.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 9/16/2016 5:14 PM, Rich wrote:
> Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?
>
> Rich
>
> K3RWN
>
>
> On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:
>> When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5
>> speaker to
>> go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
>> sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to
>> the
>> second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the
>> FT1000D and
>> the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I
>> felt
>> I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made
>> him
>> turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
>> point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell
>> which
>> was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make
>> changes to
>> a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The
>> beauty of
>> the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the
>> sound to
>> personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC
>>
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to rwnewbo...@comcast.net
>>
>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

EQ settings here:

SSB: -16, -16, -6, 0, 0, +3,  +5,  -6

CW:  -16,  -3,  0, 0, 0, -6, -10, -12

SSB setting are designed to roll off low frequency QRM,
provide some "presence" in the 1200-2800 Hz range essential
for intelligibility and roll off high frequency hiss, noise
and QRM.

Those who like "full range" audio (ESSB QRM generators) will
be appalled at the low frequency cut but it makes a big
improvement in intelligibility in most conditions.  Audio at
100 Hz and below is absolutely not needed for communication.

CW Settings are designed to roll off outside my CW listening
range.  My "pitch" is 460 Hz so I keep 200 - 800 Hz flat and
cut above/below a 600-700 Hz passband.  If one is using a
higher "pitch" it would be worthwhile changing the 1600 Hz
band from -6 to 0.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

On 9/16/2016 5:14 PM, Rich wrote:

Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?

Rich

K3RWN


On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:

When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5
speaker to
go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to
the
second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the
FT1000D and
the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I
felt
I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made
him
turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell
which
was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make
changes to
a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The
beauty of
the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the
sound to
personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jim Brown]

Hi Bill,

One thing we learned many years ago in pro audio is that in general, 
it's a bad idea to use "boost" EQ, especially to boost a lot of bands, 
and to boost them a lot. The reason is "headroom" -- when you're 
boosting a lot, you're more likely to hit digital clip on audio peaks.


I suggest that you subtract 10 dB from each band. The only band where 
you'll change the shape of the curve is the top one. And if you're doing 
the cut in that band to minimize noise internal to the K3, simply 
increase the RF gain a bit (or turn off the ATTEN and reduce the RF gain).


73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,9/16/2016 4:50 PM, Bill wrote:

*

*Menu settings used at W2BLC for armchair copy on 160/75/40 meters:*

*

The following are the settings I am using on 40, 75, 160 for armchair 
copy (meaning very reduced hiss and no ANF warbling). My RX audio goes 
through amplified Behringer studio speakers with bass/treble adjustments.


The speaker adjustments:  bass at 3 o'clock and the treble at 11 o'clock

K3 settings (Config Menu):
AGC DLY - NORM
AGC HLD - 0
AGC PLS - NORM
AGC SLP - 4 to 6 (low setting reduces artifacts from the Automatic 
Notch Filter)

AGC THR - 12
AGC F -   120
AGC S -   20
Shift -  1.25
Width -2.7
RF Gain -90 (sometimes less)
ATT -   ON
RX EQ 1-2
 20
 3+9
 4+12
 5+11
 6+14
 7+7
 8-16


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,9/16/2016 3:37 PM, Augie "Gus" Hansen wrote:
AM 6 kHz or so eq'd circuit. 


In the OLD days when AM was still the "big dog" and FM was a license to 
lose money, the station I worked for had a telephone link to the 
transmitter equalized to 10 kHz.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Bill]

*

*Menu settings used at W2BLC for armchair copy on 160/75/40 meters:*

*

The following are the settings I am using on 40, 75, 160 for armchair 
copy (meaning very reduced hiss and no ANF warbling). My RX audio goes 
through amplified Behringer studio speakers with bass/treble adjustments.


The speaker adjustments:  bass at 3 o'clock and the treble at 11 o'clock

K3 settings (Config Menu):
AGC DLY - NORM
AGC HLD - 0
AGC PLS - NORM
AGC SLP - 4 to 6 (low setting reduces artifacts from the Automatic 
Notch Filter)

AGC THR - 12
AGC F -   120
AGC S -   20
Shift -  1.25
Width -2.7
RF Gain -90 (sometimes less)
ATT -   ON
RX EQ 1-2
 20
 3+9
 4+12
 5+11
 6+14
 7+7
 8-16

Be sure to read the "Noisy K3" section on http://www.w3fpr.com/ - 
excellent information!


The disclaimer:  Your mileage for the above settings may vary - 
depending upon speaker selection, personal preferences, and your hearing 
acuity.


Note:  I made all of my settings by hand, using the K3 menus. I did NOT 
use K3 EZ as that program will sometimes upset the AGC settings.


Bill W2BLC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Kevin]

I rest my case.

I think if you blindfold someone and tell them their listening to a 
K3(s) they'd come back with the same "it sounds like %$@!" answer even 
if it was another manu's rig they were listening to. It's a self 
sustaining urban legend now.



On 9/16/2016 2:18 PM, Greg wrote:

When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5 speaker to
go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to the
second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the FT1000D and
the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I felt
I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made him
turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell which
was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make changes to
a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The beauty of
the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the sound to
personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC

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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

Hi Jim,



...
It's all very simple physics. Look at the size of the loudspeaker. Its 
low frequency output is limited by its size as a fraction of a 
wavelength. The K3 and K3S are designed as compact, light weight 
radios. The speaker used is quite good for its size. If you want big 
bass, you need a big loudspeaker (or at least one a lot bigger than 
the little guy in the K3 and K3S).  BUT -- ham radio is NOT about high 
fidelity, it's about COMMUNICATIONS quality sound.


Having the sub receiver doubles my listening pleasure. I use a pair of 
old RS Minimus-7 speakers with my original K3, and am using a pair of 
Jensen Powered Speakers (JPS 45) with my K3S. Getting excellent sound 
from both systems.


Nearly a century ago, Bell Labs learned through a lot of research that 
all it takes for communications is smooth (flat) response between 
about 500 Hz and 3 kHz, and the telephone system was designed around 
that bandwidth.


As a former Bell head (BTL in Denver) working on PBX systems in the 
1970s I was exposed to the training for many telephone products. The 
plain old telephone service, POTS, was designed for a 3000 Hz bandwidth 
(300-3300).


In the 1960s while earning my EE degree I worked in the broadcast 
business. Our main studio to transmitter link was an equalized line, but 
the backup circuit was a POTS line. Fortunately we didn't need to press 
it into service often, but on those occasions it sure sounded crappy by 
comparison to the usual AM 6 kHz or so eq'd circuit. And much more so 
when we added an FM station to the mix.


73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Walter Underwood]

It would still be nice to see some examples.

A while back, a bunch of people posted their TX EQ settings. Some were 
outliers, but a few were very similar. It was clear that about a third of those 
posted had come to pretty much the same settings.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Mark E. Musick <markmus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> Remember RX EQ settings are by mode. One for CW and one for SSB.
> Also, has already been mentioned, the settings that suit your taste for
> audio quality may not suit anyone else.
> 
> Mark, WB9CIF
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rich
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:15 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality
> 
> Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?
> 
> Rich
> 
> K3RWN
> 
> 
> On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:
>> When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5 
>> speaker to go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he 
>> thought the K3 sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I 
>> hooked the K3 up to the second input on the SP5 and switched back and 
>> forth between the FT1000D and the K3, making equalizer adjustments to 
>> the K3 as I did so.  Finally I felt I had the K3 sounding like a 
>> FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made him turn around so he could 
>> not see which radio he was listening to...At that point when I 
>> switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell which was 
>> which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make changes 
>> to a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The 
>> beauty of the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and 
>> adjusting the sound to personal taste is only one feature!  73, 
>> Greg-N4CC
>> 
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>> rwnewbo...@comcast.net
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,9/16/2016 7:20 AM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:

High frequencies propagate in a straight line from a speaker, so a speaker 
facing upward loses 'presence'. Also the K3 speaker is a small speaker in a 
small box. An external speaker, facing the operator, will help a great deal.


This is exactly right.

Someone else wrote:

The reason behind is the artifacts from K3 DSP.


False. ALL audio goes through DSP. If it sounds good on headphones or an 
external speaker, bad sound is NOT the result of DSP -- unless it's been 
badly adjusted, like pushing up the low end or pushing up highs. But 
that's a USER problem, not a problem with the radio.


It's all very simple physics. Look at the size of the loudspeaker. Its 
low frequency output is limited by its size as a fraction of a 
wavelength. The K3 and K3S are designed as compact, light weight radios. 
The speaker used is quite good for its size. If you want big bass, you 
need a big loudspeaker (or at least one a lot bigger than the little guy 
in the K3 and K3S).  BUT -- ham radio is NOT about high fidelity, it's 
about COMMUNICATIONS quality sound. Nearly a century ago, Bell Labs 
learned through a lot of research that all it takes for communications 
is smooth (flat) response between about 500 Hz and 3 kHz, and the 
telephone system was designed around that bandwidth.


Most hams I know use headphones for serious operation, and use the 
speaker only for monitoring while doing something else in the shack, or 
for tuning in digital modes like RTTY, or listening for meteor pings 
with WSJT modes. If you want better sound through a speaker, buy a 
decent front-facing speaker and plug it into the rear panel jack.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Mark E. Musick]

Remember RX EQ settings are by mode. One for CW and one for SSB.
Also, has already been mentioned, the settings that suit your taste for
audio quality may not suit anyone else.

Mark, WB9CIF

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rich
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:15 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?

Rich

K3RWN


On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:
> When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5 
> speaker to go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he 
> thought the K3 sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I 
> hooked the K3 up to the second input on the SP5 and switched back and 
> forth between the FT1000D and the K3, making equalizer adjustments to 
> the K3 as I did so.  Finally I felt I had the K3 sounding like a 
> FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made him turn around so he could 
> not see which radio he was listening to...At that point when I 
> switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell which was 
> which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make changes 
> to a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The 
> beauty of the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and 
> adjusting the sound to personal taste is only one feature!  73, 
> Greg-N4CC
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Rich]

Would you be kind enough to post your EQ values?

Rich

K3RWN


On 9/16/2016 15:18 PM, Greg wrote:

When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5 speaker to
go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to the
second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the FT1000D and
the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I felt
I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made him
turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell which
was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make changes to
a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The beauty of
the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the sound to
personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Greg]

When I first got my K3, I was used to a FT1000D and had the SP5 speaker to
go with it.  A friend who also has a FT1000D told me he thought the K3
sounded like "$#@%" compared to the FT1000D...so I hooked the K3 up to the
second input on the SP5 and switched back and forth between the FT1000D and
the K3, making equalizer adjustments to the K3 as I did so.  Finally I felt
I had the K3 sounding like a FT-1000D.  My friend came over and I made him
turn around so he could not see which radio he was listening to...At that
point when I switched from one radio to the other, he could not tell which
was which.  Of course he grumbled that you shouldn't have to make changes to
a new radio to get it to sound good...but I just laughed...  The beauty of
the K3 is having the ability to do what you want, and adjusting the sound to
personal taste is only one feature!  73, Greg-N4CC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Edward R Cole]

PS:  I have just gotten new hearing aids that have bluetooth 
capability.  Soon will try using the audio appliance to interface 
with headphone output of the K3, which will eliminate all speakers 
(if it works well).  It works well when used with my iphone, so 
likely will be nice for working weak-signals with the radio (my 
biggest challenge is hearing in white-noise).


But for casual haming with armchair signals the big old ten inch 
National speaker sounds real nice with the K3.

http://www.kl7uw.com/Shack2011_1.jpg  speaker at left side of photo

I use the COMspkr from West Mountain with my KX3 in the shack and 
will use the KX3 mobile with the Sync in my truck.


And note in this 1958 photo of my Novice station the speaker (and 
also the headphones) next to the typewriter!

http://www.kl7uw.com/1958%20HamStation.jpg


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Fred Jensen]

A recurring theme on this list, Alan.  My hearing is sufficiently 
challenged that the only audio my K3 ever produces go into headphones, 
which are hugely improved over the "cans" on the mid-20th Century.  I 
have found that the internal speakers in many of today's transceivers 
leave a lot to be desired.  I find the K3 internal speaker to be in the 
lower part of the "audio quality" spectrum.  That said,


You can lay your headphones on the desk and still copy CW [old RO's 
trick for weak signals in noise].  You will also hear voice and it will 
be intelligible, but it doesn't sound good.  Mark this as one end of the 
quality spectrum


A number of years ago, I inherited a Hallicrafters SX-28 with the bass 
reflex speaker cabinet.  The cabinet is about belt-high, and about 50 cm 
wide and deep [receiver will fit nicely on top].  The speaker is about 
30-35 cm in diameter, and has a very large, strong magnet.  Internally, 
it has a baffle that directs the energy from the rear of the speaker 
back, around, and eventually out the bottom front ... a fairly long 
path.  The SX-28 uses two 6V6's in push-pull for 8 watts undistorted 
audio out.  It sounds fantastic!  Mark that as the other end of the 
quality spectrum.


I formed a theory long ago that speakers are like antennas.  A small 
antenna [relative to wavelength] will radiate, but not well.  Likewise, 
a small speaker will speak, but it does so best at higher frequencies. 
If you want balanced audio, you need apparatus that "radiates" well at 
longer wavelengths.  Electronic equalization can do a lot, but in the 
end, it's the "antenna" that makes the final difference.  My K3 has much 
less empty volume inside that my TS-950 did.  The 950 sounded better. 
My K2 has less empty volume than my K3, and predictably, sounds worse


I forwarded my theory to Stockholm ... just waiting now for the Nobel 
Committee to send me travel instructions.


73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 9/16/2016 4:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:


I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in
speaker. Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my
comments are made as an enquiry based on observed facts.

We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints
that the audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality,
even when signals are 5/9 and virtually no RF noise. I suspect that
part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s personal
preference, or not really setup at all! We made a comparison last
week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an external speaker
and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse that it
was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was
still superior.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

As Kevin notes it's a long-standing complaint. Actually, it goes back to about 
1999 when the first grumbles about the upward-facing speaker on the original 
Elecraft K2 were posted. 

It's especially true in a "live" room where the audio is reflected from various 
surfaces or where a shelf is close to the top of the rig that muffles the 
audio. 

One excellent solution is to fold some stiff paper in a "U" with one surface 
slanted at 45 degrees. Place it on top of the K3 with the open side facing you, 
so the sound bounces off of the paper and toward you. The difference is 
dramatic. You can simply hold any firm flat surface - a book for example - and 
demonstrate the effect. Black paper will blend in and be almost invisible. A 
few bits of tape will hold it in pace. 

A little more "techie" solution is to add an Elecraft SP3 loudspeaker to your 
setup. It's larger, forward-facing speaker is a significant improvement and the 
cabinet matches the K3 so it can sit alongside or anywhere convenient. 

73, Ron AC7AC



On 9/16/2016 6:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
> Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
> enquiry based on observed facts.
>
> We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
> audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals 
> are 5/9 and virtually no RF noise.
> I suspect that part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s 
> personal preference, or not really setup at all!
> We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
> external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
> that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was 
> still superior.
>
> I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
> into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
> the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in 
> a crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.
>
> I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
> communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?
>
> Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
> shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
> enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
> style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
> better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an 
> external speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be 
> carted around to club meetings and events.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Richard Fjeld]

I usually use a Yamaha CM500 headset which I like very much.

For an external speaker, early into the hobby I made a nice walnut frame 
with grill cloth to house an old speaker from a Muntz TV, if you 
remember those. It became a keepsake.

Dick, n0ce


On 9/16/2016 8:49 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> I have yet to use any internal SS radio's speaker except for an occasional 
> test or possibly a portable set-up.
> They may as well leave it out as far as I'm concerned.  NONE of them come 
> anywhere close to the sound quality I get from simple outboard speakers.
> (Note, this does NOT include the over-priced, cheap speaker in a metal box 
> often sold as a matching "accessory" by the big-three.)
> Personally, I find the recovered audio from my K3s, feeding two little 
> computer speakers to be the best of any modern radio I have ever used.
> That said, it's hard to beat the audio from an old boatanchor radio with 
> push-pull 6V6's driving a big 12" speaker cabinet.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Matthew Lawson]

My K3 has had weak audio on the external speaker, have to crank volume knob
up almost all the way up. Seems like there is no amplification. Need to
check into it.

*Matthew Lawson*
*KC7EQO*
*442.100 + 100 Hz PL Blyn Mt Repeater*


*http://www.qrz.com/db/KC7EQO/R *


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> * On 2016 16 Sep 09:17 -0500, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> > High frequencies propagate in a straight line from a speaker, so a
> > speaker facing upward loses 'presence'. Also the K3 speaker is a small
> > speaker in a small box. An external speaker, facing the operator, will
> > help a great deal.
>
> I don't use the internal speaker on the K3 as it sits under a shelf and
> with the radio sloping rearward, that is probably a recipe in
> frustration.  I have a pair of Radio Shack Minimus 3.5 speakers (now
> probably getting close to 25 years old and not amplified) connected to
> the K3 and facing me positioned on either side and to the rear of the
> computer monitor that sits on the shelf directly above the K3.  The
> audio is pleasant to me with the K3's volume control rarely advanced
> above the 9:30 or so position.
>
> 73, Nate, N0NB
>
> --
>
> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
>
> Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2016 16 Sep 09:17 -0500, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> High frequencies propagate in a straight line from a speaker, so a
> speaker facing upward loses 'presence'. Also the K3 speaker is a small
> speaker in a small box. An external speaker, facing the operator, will
> help a great deal.

I don't use the internal speaker on the K3 as it sits under a shelf and
with the radio sloping rearward, that is probably a recipe in
frustration.  I have a pair of Radio Shack Minimus 3.5 speakers (now
probably getting close to 25 years old and not amplified) connected to
the K3 and facing me positioned on either side and to the rear of the
computer monitor that sits on the shelf directly above the K3.  The
audio is pleasant to me with the K3's volume control rarely advanced
above the 9:30 or so position.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[David Cutter]

I stand a stiff cardboard box (for my Kent paddle) behind the speaker and 
that throws the sound toward me. The K3 speaker in an external box would be 
very good. I have Pyle battery powered speakers which are also excellent and 
very small as advised on the list some while ago.

David
G3UNA


High frequencies propagate in a straight line from a speaker, so a speaker 
facing upward loses 'presence'. Also the K3 speaker is a small speaker in 
a small box. An external speaker, facing the operator, will help a great 
deal.


Vic 4X6GP 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Vic Rosenthal]

High frequencies propagate in a straight line from a speaker, so a speaker 
facing upward loses 'presence'. Also the K3 speaker is a small speaker in a 
small box. An external speaker, facing the operator, will help a great deal.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 16 Sep 2016, at 14:04, Alan. G4GNX  wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
> Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
> enquiry based on observed facts.
> 
> We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
> audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals 
> are 5/9 and virtually no RF noise.
> I suspect that part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s 
> personal preference, or not really setup at all!
> We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
> external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
> that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was 
> still superior.
> 
> I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
> into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
> the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in 
> a crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.
> 
> I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
> communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?
> 
> Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
> shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
> enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
> style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
> better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an 
> external speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be 
> carted around to club meetings and events.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Alan. G4GNX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

I have yet to use any internal SS radio's speaker except for an occasional test 
or possibly a portable set-up.  
They may as well leave it out as far as I'm concerned.  NONE of them come 
anywhere close to the sound quality I get from simple outboard speakers.
(Note, this does NOT include the over-priced, cheap speaker in a metal box 
often sold as a matching "accessory" by the big-three.)
Personally, I find the recovered audio from my K3s, feeding two little computer 
speakers to be the best of any modern radio I have ever used.
That said, it's hard to beat the audio from an old boatanchor radio with 
push-pull 6V6's driving a big 12" speaker cabinet.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jerry 
Moore
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:16 AM
To: 'Kevin' <ksto...@ac0h.net>; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

In my case the issue was low frequency harmonics in the case/assembly causing 
the audio to distort. Removing the speaker from the case resulted in very 
excellent audio from the built in speaker. I re-installed it and use an 
external speaker now (on the rare occasion I need/want external sound). 
It's largely a non-issue as I was surprised to find I operate most often with 
headphones so I can hear better.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Bill]

First - my K3 never leaves my desk. Hence, no issues with external speakers.

It took me several months of adjusting the EQ and AGC (many settings 
available to the user to suit their desires) to get the sound I desired 
from my Behringer MS40 speakers. Armchair surround copy! Best sounding 
rig I ever had - and up until about ten years ago, I had nearly all of 
them since the 60s.


The beauty of the K3 being the availability of the many menu settings to 
adjust the rig to whatever you want.


Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jerry Moore]

In my case the issue was low frequency harmonics in the case/assembly causing 
the audio to distort. Removing the speaker from the case resulted in very 
excellent audio from the built in speaker. I re-installed it and use an 
external speaker now (on the rare occasion I need/want external sound). 
It's largely a non-issue as I was surprised to find I operate most often with 
headphones so I can hear better.


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 7:57 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

This has been a complaint for the last nine years and 99% of the time the fault 
lies between the chair and the radio. Did anybody do a proper audio setup on 
the rig when it arrived or did it just get tossed on the desk and turned on? 
You need to go to W3FPR's website and take a look at the audio settings Don 
worked up on the original K3.

The K3(s) is a highly configurable radio.

To be fair stick an outboard speaker on the K3 and tweek the audio settings. 
Then again some people don't want to mess with radio settings. 
The "appliance operators" expect perfect this and perfect that and don't want 
to lift a finger to get it.


On 9/16/2016 6:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
> Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
> enquiry based on observed facts.
>
> We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
> audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals 
> are 5/9 and virtually no RF noise.
> I suspect that part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s 
> personal preference, or not really setup at all!
> We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
> external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
> that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was 
> still superior.
>
> I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
> into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
> the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in 
> a crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.
>
> I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
> communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?
>
> Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
> shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
> enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
> style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
> better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an 
> external speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be 
> carted around to club meetings and events.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> ksto...@ac0h.net

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2016 16 Sep 07:33 -0500, Johnny Siu via Elecraft wrote:
> My comments are restricted to voice mode.  Alan's comments are related
> to comparison with Icom DSP radios.  K3's audio in voice mode (no
> matter how you set / adjust the RX EQ) is far inferior than Icom.

I don't own an Icom and likely never will so I can't compare.  I do have
some Yaesu radios and a Kenwood TS-520 to compare and coming back to the
K3 is relaxing to me.

> The reason behind is the artifacts from K3 DSP.  I am of the opinion
> that the audio (not internal speaker) from KX3 is more comparable to
> Icom.

Is this with the later DSP board or the original?  My K3 came with the
later version DSP and I don't notice artifacts nor is the K3 audio
"tiring".

> While I am not young and over 50, I can still hear up to
> 12KHz.  Perhaps, this is the reason why I am very sensitive to DSP
> artifacts.

I'm very similar but one thing I did right away is to set the RX EQ to
roll off all frequencies above 4 kHz or so as much as possible for SSB
(for CW my settings are even more aggressive).  I don't use the K3 for
AM broadcast listening so anything above those frequencies is useless
for SSB audio and attenuated to the greatest extent possible.  It's also
likely that I would have no idea of what artifacts would sound like
either.  ;-)

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Jerry Moore]

I went round and round with my K3S sound to no avail. I finally realized 2 
important facts.
1. When operating I wear headphones.
2. If I want speaker sound it's better to have it directed towards me.

So for using the built in speaker a hood or reflector may work, however, I've 
personally found a separate external speaker gives the best possible sound 
(especially after the built in EQ is adjusted for the mode I'm working).
Just my 2c

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Alan. 
G4GNX
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 7:04 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

Hi all.

I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
enquiry based on observed facts.

We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals are 
5/9 and virtually no RF noise.
I suspect that part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s personal 
preference, or not really setup at all!
We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was still 
superior.

I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in a 
crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.

I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?

Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an external 
speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be carted around 
to club meetings and events.

Thoughts?

73,

Alan. G4GNX
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Edward R Cole]

I only listened to the internal K3 speaker for a few days when it was 
brand new...sounded harsh.  Use of headphones K3 sounds great and 
have been using a ten-inch National Speaker built in the 1950's since 
then whose ambience I really appreciate.


I never haul my K3 out to portable locations so quite happen in the 
shack in this configuration.  Just as in Hi Fi preferences, its 
personal taste.  If you don't care for the sound of the small 
internal speaker hook something else up.



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Clay Autery]

I would be interested to see the testing procedure and results that confirm 
your statement RE: DSP artifacts.

Not sure why you would be concerned about audio anywhere near 12 kHz.


Sent from my cell phone... pardon the likely typos!  ;)

 Original message 
From: Johnny Siu via Elecraft <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
Date:09/16/2016  07:29  (GMT-06:00) 
To: Kevin <ksto...@ac0h.net>,elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality 

I must say that I respectfully disagree '99% of the time the fault lies between 
the chair and the radio'.
My comments are restricted to voice mode.  Alan's comments are related to 
comparison with Icom DSP radios.  K3's audio in voice mode (no matter how you 
set / adjust the RX EQ) is far inferior than Icom.
The reason behind is the artifacts from K3 DSP.  I am of the opinion that the 
audio (not internal speaker) from KX3 is more comparable to Icom.
While I am not young and over 50, I can still hear up to 12KHz.  Perhaps, this 
is the reason why I am very sensitive to DSP artifacts.
73
Johnny VR2XMC

  寄件人︰ Kevin <ksto...@ac0h.net>
收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
傳送日期︰ 2016年09月16日 (週五) 7:57 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality
   
This has been a complaint for the last nine years and 99% of the time 
the fault lies between the chair and the radio. Did anybody do a proper 
audio setup on the rig when it arrived or did it just get tossed on the 
desk and turned on? You need to go to W3FPR's website and take a look at 
the audio settings Don worked up on the original K3.

The K3(s) is a highly configurable radio.

To be fair stick an outboard speaker on the K3 and tweek the audio 
settings. Then again some people don't want to mess with radio settings. 
The "appliance operators" expect perfect this and perfect that and don't 
want to lift a finger to get it.


On 9/16/2016 6:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
> Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
> enquiry based on observed facts.
>
> We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
> audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals 
> are 5/9 and virtually no RF noise. I suspect that part of the reason is that 
> the K3 is setup to someone’s personal preference, or not really setup at all!
> We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
> external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
> that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was 
> still superior.
>
> I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
> into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
> the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in 
> a crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.
>
> I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
> communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?
>
> Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
> shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
> enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
> style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
> better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an 
> external speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be 
> carted around to club meetings and events.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX

   
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[ac5p]

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Don Wilhelm]

Alan,

Have you considered replacing the speaker in that K3?

On 9/16/2016 7:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:

Hi all.

I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
enquiry based on observed facts.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Kevin]

This has been a complaint for the last nine years and 99% of the time 
the fault lies between the chair and the radio. Did anybody do a proper 
audio setup on the rig when it arrived or did it just get tossed on the 
desk and turned on? You need to go to W3FPR's website and take a look at 
the audio settings Don worked up on the original K3.


The K3(s) is a highly configurable radio.

To be fair stick an outboard speaker on the K3 and tweek the audio 
settings. Then again some people don't want to mess with radio settings. 
The "appliance operators" expect perfect this and perfect that and don't 
want to lift a finger to get it.



On 9/16/2016 6:04 AM, Alan. G4GNX wrote:

Hi all.

I wonder if I can get some feedback about K3 audio from the built in speaker. 
Please note that this is not a K3 bashing session, my comments are made as an 
enquiry based on observed facts.

We have a K3 at the local Ham Radio club and we often get complaints that the 
audio from the internal speaker is not very good quality, even when signals are 
5/9 and virtually no RF noise.
I suspect that part of the reason is that the K3 is setup to someone’s personal 
preference, or not really setup at all!
We made a comparison last week against a new Icom IC7300 which  also had an 
external speaker and the IC7300 ‘won’ hands down. At first I made an excuse 
that it was the external speaker, but we unplugged it and the IC7300 was still 
superior.

I have never really had an issue with audio on my personal K3, but then I’m 
into clear communication and over the years I’ve trained my ears to listen in 
the noise and pick out voices, whilst ignoring the mush, much the same as in a 
crowded room when attempting a conversation with one or two individuals.

I do know what good hi-fi sound is but do not necessarily look for that in a 
communications device, so are some members being over-pedantic?

Another Radio Ham reported that he had by accident parked his new K3S under a 
shelf which ‘threw’ the sound forward and he found that it was greatly 
enhanced. I wonder if fitting some sort of hood, in keeping with the K3’s 
style, would be worth trying, or maybe replacing the internal speaker with a 
better device. I don’t really want to start campaigning to purchase an external 
speaker for the K3 because it’s another ‘lump’ that needs to be carted around 
to club meetings and events.

Thoughts?

73,

Alan. G4GNX
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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio quality

[Bill]

Check out the RX EQ settings. You can do a lot with them.

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: Audio Quality of SSB (RX, not TX) ?

[WILLIS COOKE]

Phil, the K3 has lots of tools that will help with a weak SSB signal.  The 
receiver is very sensitive, the Noise Blanker works well, but takes some 
experience to get the full benefit because it has a lot of flexibility.  The 
Notch works very well.  Of course, the ONLY thing that matters is how it 
compares with what he has now and the other rigs that he is considering (if 
any).  I came from a Kenwood TS-850S which is so good that I didn't consider 
anything else until the K3 came along.  I have not been disappointed.

That being said, the best cure for weak SSB signals is a better receiving 
antenna, a better transmitting antenna for the other station and more power for 
the other station.  The K3 is almost magic, but it is still subject to the Laws 
of Physics.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
K5EWJ 





From: Phil Hystad k7...@comcast.net
To: Elecraft Discussion List Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 12:04:06 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3: Audio Quality of SSB (RX, not TX) ?

I have been using up e-mail bits and bytes selling the K3 to a friend of mine 
(Greg, KM6SG).  He hasn't done much CW since he passed his Advanced license 
test and is mostly a SSB type of guy.  Me, I am mostly CW.

So, he asks me this question about the K3, Can the K3 DSP repair or fixup the 
audio quality of a weak SSB signal.

Now, I am thinking that something like the K3's diversity reception features 
might be useful but I know that he does not have the room for other antennas.  
So, is there some aspect of the K3 that might set it apart from other rigs 
(Yaesu, Icom, etc.) regarding reception of SSB.

If there were features of the K3 (other than diversity reception) that set it 
apart and above other rigs regarding the clarity and quality of received SSB 
then maybe my friend will be convinced and buy a rig.  Or, maybe my haranguing 
him to get back into CW will work too.  Also, he lives in Scottsdale, AZ so 
maybe if there is a K3 user nearby he would be able to go and listen in person.

73, phil, K7PEH
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: Audio Quality of SSB (RX, not TX) ?

[Hector Padron]

Can the K3 DSP repair or fixup the audio quality of a weak SSB signal.?

Dear  Phil,like it was stated already the K3 is not magic,its almost perfect 
but I can tell you that coming from a sold FT-2000 and a sold IC-756ProIII,I am 
impressed of how well the DSP works at the K3,I could never do with those two 
radios I sold what I do now with my K3, yes you can pick up a signal within the 
band noise with about S4 or S5 either in CW or SSB that when you hear it it 
sound distorded mixed with the noise and then once you enable the DSP and play 
with its different settings,you will be able to hear the same weak station but 
now it will be crystal clear, and best of all in CW there will not be any 
ringing noise or digital robotic sound,it will be very clear,I use the DSP 
constantly on 40M when the noise don't let me pickup weak russian stations,some 
of them sound terrible,with signals of 449 or even weaker and with the DSP I 
can hear them as a clear 579 signal.
I hope my answer be good for your friend,73
 
AD4C


For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Phil Hystad k7...@comcast.net wrote:


From: Phil Hystad k7...@comcast.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3: Audio Quality of SSB (RX, not TX) ?
To: Elecraft Discussion List Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 6:04 PM


I have been using up e-mail bits and bytes selling the K3 to a friend of mine 
(Greg, KM6SG).  He hasn't done much CW since he passed his Advanced license 
test and is mostly a SSB type of guy.  Me, I am mostly CW.

So, he asks me this question about the K3, Can the K3 DSP repair or fixup the 
audio quality of a weak SSB signal.

Now, I am thinking that something like the K3's diversity reception features 
might be useful but I know that he does not have the room for other antennas.  
So, is there some aspect of the K3 that might set it apart from other rigs 
(Yaesu, Icom, etc.) regarding reception of SSB.

If there were features of the K3 (other than diversity reception) that set it 
apart and above other rigs regarding the clarity and quality of received SSB 
then maybe my friend will be convinced and buy a rig.  Or, maybe my haranguing 
him to get back into CW will work too.  Also, he lives in Scottsdale, AZ so 
maybe if there is a K3 user nearby he would be able to go and listen in person.

73, phil, K7PEH
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