Re: PCB marked for UL 94V-0
Doug, do you mean the only the substrate or a PCB with the copper and soldermask in place? Regards, Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: POWELL, mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com DOUG To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: PCB marked for UL 94V-0 Hello group, An interesting question came up about validating printed circuit board raw material. In searching for alternate vendors we provide a spec that V-0 material is required and a UL V-0 stamp be placed on the board. The question is, how do I independently validate the material used, since a vendor could theoretically choose whatever they want and stamp it as V-0? -doug Douglas E. Powell Regulatory Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Fort Collins, CO 80535 USA ___ This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!???
If my understanding is correct, that is the CE mark means the manufacturer believes the product complies with the applicable harmonized European standards, I conclude the sole purpose of the CE marking on these adapters is to lead the layperson to believe there ARE applicable standards, and that the thing complies with those standards. There are no harmonized standards for plugs or socket outlets - they are all CEE or national standards. So it is impossible for the manufacturer to claim compliance with a harmonized standard. I have even heard the term CE Approved from time to time. But, on the otherhand, maybe I don't understand the correct use of the CE marking. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: Enci emc-p...@cinepower.com To: John Allen john.al...@era.co.uk Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:50 PM Subject: Re: The Universal Plug Adapter!??? Hi John, Regarding all singing and dancing mains plug interface products Several months ago a colleague returning from USA proudly presented a universal travel plug adaptor. Not the same one in your link, but a different one. This design was based on sliding out the plug connection you wanted. The only problem was you could slide out all three male power connectors. A quick check with a continuity tester showed continuity between the relevant pins. L+L+L and N+N+N. The only level of safety to prevent electric shock is a single warning label warning not to extend all the plugs at the same time. but it has a large CE mark I get in response. Maybe I am missing something, but does having CE Marking somehow extend an invisible shield around the product, akin to one or more levels of protection?!? It makes me wonder what kind of dangerous products were being released onto the market before the advent of CE. .. the sad part is that it wasnt April 1st. Maybe the Compliance Magazine should have a, But it has a CE Mark, as a regular feature next to the banana skins section. Enci. At 17:42 02/06/2003 +0100, John Allen wrote: Hi Folks ... However, for the equivalent in mains plugs see http://www.nebulus.com/props/plug.html Personally I think it looks (insert your own - probably unprintable - comment)! God help anyone who trie to build or use one of these - all the unplugged-in pins are likely to be Live/Hot (with a vengence)! - or have a missed some subtle point in the design? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests)
Why not provide a fuse to prevent deterioration of the PE trace on a PCB? Joking of course, but now that I have your attention, I would like to see this thread move away from the physics and discuss what practical reasons there are for using PC traces to provide earth fault circuits. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:53 AM Subject: RE: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests) Not quite. I^2·t will tell you the let through current of the copper trace, but will not necessarily tell you if the construction will be compliant. The compliance criteria for this test include: * no damage to the trace (no lifting, probably no discoloration) * no damage to the PWB (no delamination, burning; I don't know if this includes burning off of solder mask) * before and after earthing impedance must comply with the 0.1 Ohm maximum impedance * no change in earthing impedance greater than 10% of the before and after earthing impedance results There is also the much more variable solder in the earthing path. While manufacturing techniques have come a long way in terms of consistency, the amount of solder in a joint and the quality of the joint itself can play a significant role. It should be expected that a lower melting point solder will perform less well than a higher melting point solder. Appropriate process controls will have a positive effect. These are some of the reasons some form of safety agency factory auditing of this type of construction is normal. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:32 AM Exactly! Chris Maxwell -Original Message- From: drcuthbert [SMTP:drcuthb...@micron.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:50 PM What is needed is the I squared t rating of the breaker. Then the (I^2)(t) rating of the PCB. Then you know if the PCB can take it. Dave Cuthbert This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests)
Carl, If the primary supply circuitry and components provide double or reinforced insulation, nothing can become live in the event of a single fault, the test becomes unnecessary, and I would argue that fact. If the design does not provide double or reinforced insulation, the test sounds applicable from points that could become live in case of a basic insulation fault. Regards, Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: cnew...@xycom.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: RE: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests) A slight divergence from the EN specifically, but I thought that the following would be helpful to this thread: I am presently working this issue with a UL engineer in accordance with UL 60950, 3rd Edition. I also have the UL 60950 3rd Ed. Test Data Sheets. Their Protective Earthing Trace Earth Fault Current Test, UL Doc. 190.eng, per Section 2.6.3.3 requires the following in my case: 1. Three samples are tested; 2. Trace resistance is measured before and after test. Resistance cannot exceed 0.1 ohms, and cannot change more than 10% after test; 3. AC source is 240 Vac, 200 amps (20A circuit breaker X 10), power factor is 75 - 80% through shorted bus bars with a 20/30 A (20 in my case) service entrance type circuit breaker in series with the testing terminals. The circuit breaker is connected to the bus bars by 1.22 m (4 ft.) of #12 AWG wire. 4. The test circuit is connected to the DUT via the grounding lead of the 1.82 m (6 ft) power supply cord. If cord is not provided, then #16 AWG wire is used. 5. Test continues until ultimate results occur; e.g. CB trips, trace opens, etc. My UL guy tells me that I should expect the typical service type CB to be rated up to + 10%. So it appears that I need to concern myself with a burst of current up to approximately 22 amps for the 20 amp AC circuit that my product is being evaluated for. Carl From: Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com on 02/03/2003 09:29 AM Please respond to Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Carl Newton/XYCOM) Subject: RE: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests) This thread has been interesting. I am, at this moment, considering a design where I am almost forced to use a PC (printed circuit) trace for Earth ground. It seems funny to me that most equipment has been historically made with 18AWG protective ground pigtail wires; and 25A ground fault tests have been used for years. Now that PC traces are being used for protective ground; we want to test with 200A or greater impulse currents? I'm curious about what would happen to your typical 18AWG line cord during this test. I'm wondering if the line cord would fuse open? There are a couple of handy charts on the web. One is at www.kepcopower.com/nomovax2.htm this is a nomograph of maximum operating current, AWG and IR drop in the conductor. The point A is generally considered the point of maximum IR drop. If you draw a line from point A, through a wire gauge size; you'll get a max current. Of course this is steady state current; and the nomograph assumes a single wire. Wire bundles would be a worse case. It's too bad that this chart doesn't contain the fuse values for the wires as well (the I squared * T values). Another is at www.circuitboards.com/capacity.php3. This is a chart of max current for PC traces. Remember that this is for TRACES and planes only; it doesn't say anything about vias and other potential problems. At first pass, it seems that a trace size to handle twice the power cord's max current, (from the nomograph) with a 10degC trace temperature rise (from the PC trace chart), would be a good rule of thumb for the trace size. If I have room, I'll just make it bigger. Once we pay for the PC board fabrication, the copper is free! Even with an adequately sized trace; I can think of a few potential problems with the trace to chassis connection: 1. Many layout people open up PC traces or planes around vias so that only four little 20 mil wide bridges carry the current to the via. This is great for soldering heat relief; but BAD for current carrying capacity. These little bridges can fuse open in high current conditions. I am considering solving this by not putting any thermal reliefs around your Earth ground vias and using multiple vias. 2. Another problem with these traces is using plated through vias with screws through them.It has been found that plated through vias can crack when they are put under pressure from screws.Some power supply manufacturers solve this by bringing the Earth ground trace
Re: EN60950 protective conductor test
I support both John's opinions. I don't want PC traces for PE circuits outlawed in the standards because there may be some valid reason to do that, but I have never come across it in ITE or domestic appliances. Based on my experience all mains circuits are provided with double or reinforced insulation. I believe the cost hit for that construction can be essentially nothing. Consequently nothing is connected to the so-called PE trace (or more correctly, a PC trace connected to the product's earthing means) except the approved Y caps, and possibly one or more SELV circuits. When inexperienced test engineers mentioned high current withstand of PC traces, I point out that the mains circuits cannot fault to earthed circuits as a result of a single fault. Therefore, the test is not required. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:12 PM Subject: Re: EN60950 protective conductor test I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200302012030.maa04...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'EN60950 protective conductor test' on Sat, 1 Feb 2003: short-circuit conditions. The printed-board mounting versions of the IEC 60320 appliance connector encourage the use of board traces to carry the PEC; something that I would not be happy about, in principle. Such construction cannot be sloughed off in such an off-hand manner. This is solo BOGSAT engineering, which cannot be condoned. Is it not permitted to express a personal preference on this group? I *prefer, personally*, not to use printed board traces as parts of the PEC. I'm not suggesting that should be in IEC 60950 or any other standard. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: single fault conditions
Wow, I would have to think a while about this. The first thing that comes to my mind, is the risk any greater than the bulk cap failure that spew debris around, and sometimes catch fire? There is no reasonable way to simulate that. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: boconn...@t-yuden.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:40 PM Subject: single fault conditions Good People of PSTC The environment being considered is a switching power supply. The technique that safety agencies use to simulate a SFC on a power FET does not seem, IMHO, to simulate the actual failure mode of the device. To wit: when the mosfet fails short, it blows itself open; so the amount of current sucked out of mains, e.g., the PFC FET, would probably open the component after a few input cycles. But if I apply a direct mechanical short (source to drain), current is being forced to flow until the fuse blows, or until some series trace or component opens. The Bad: some FETs fail very violently, and can actually be a fire hazard and/or shock hazard in open-frame switchers; but if the FET itself does not provide the short circuit, we will never know The Good: providing a continuous (mechanical) short will reveal if there are other components in the current path that could be cause the unit to fail in an unsafe mode. Although, according to QA records, these components have never failed, so it can be both demonstrated by design equations and empirical evidence that the SFC test does necessarily demonstrate anything relevant... The Ugly: Safety testing results in design corrections that do not increase product safety. So would it be legitimate to over-drive the gate, forcing short circuit current to flow through the FET, but not to apply a mechanical short across the component? Experiences comments are appreciated. R/S, Brian
Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests
Here is what I think the requirements are: If the product remains safe, within the meaning of the standard, and the branch circuit overcurrent protection device does, or does not, operate as a result of fault testing, internal overcurrent is unnecessary. If the product does NOT remain safe, within the meaning of the standard, as a result of fault testing, internal overcurrent protection IS necessary, branch circuit overcurrent protection is inadequate, and internal overcurrent protection is necessary. Safe within the meaning of the standard: Does not exceed allowable fault temperature limits, does not catch fire, enclosure does not deform to the extent that parts involving the risk of electric shock or personal injury become exposed to the test finger or probe, will pass the required electric strength test after the fault, etc. IN order to be confident that the design is safe one must continue the fault testing until steady state conditions exist, OR for the maximum clearing time (for the resulting fault current) as stated in the standard for the particular overcurrent device. It is incorrect consider the result acceptable when the overcurrent device opens the circuit. The overcurrent device should be removed from the circuit and the current monitored during the fault test. Only approved fuses and circuit breakers should be specified if they are necessary make the product remain safe - within the meaning of the standard. There is a significant difference in the endurance and clearing limits between the UL and IEC standards for fuses and circuit breakers with the same current rating. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: peter merguerian mailto:pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:54 PM Subject: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests Dear All, For safety, it is not clear from the standards whether the main branch circuit breaker tripping during fault conditions is an acceptable result. I see no reason why this should not be acceptable. What is your view? Some third party labs find it acceptable and others do not. Anyone can lead me to some inernational decisions regarding this issue? Thanks, Peter _ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up ttp://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com now
Re: High-currrent resistors and inductors - preferably variable
This sounds like something that won't be found on the shelf. I have seen some small AC welding machines where the output current was adjustable by increasing and decreasing an adjustable air gap designed into the magnetic path of the flux cutting the output winding. The flux path in the primary remains unchanged. They make a H of a noise under load. I have not the slightest idea how much the scheme would or could change the phase angle but of course it did. So, I would ask manufactures of small AC welding machines if they would be willing to eliminate the input circuit and furnish such a regulating component.. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: High-currrent resistors and inductors - preferably variable One of my IEC colleagues, from a very large company, sent this enquiry: I am interested in locating suppliers that can provide variable impedance elements (Ztest Zref) needed to test to EN 61000-3-11. The range of Ztest, at 50 Hz, may have to be Ztest = (0.10 - 0.25) + j(0.10 - 0.25) with 75 A per phase. I have located one supplier in the US, with a possible additional one that may be acceptable. I would like to have a European source if possible. Any information that you can provided in this regard will be greatly appreciated. Either send me e-mail or put a message here. My e-mail is jmw(AT)jmwa.demon.co.[DELETE.]uk -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements
Paul, the minimum creepage distance and clearance requirements will be shown in the EN or IEC standard applicable to the product for which the board will be used. These requirements will not be unique to Denmark or to DEMKO. There will be references to other EN or IEC standards that allow reduced spacing, or require additional spacing bases upon the installation overvoltage category, the materials being used, what pollution may occur, and other characteristics of your application. You should research and understand all of this thoroughly beforehand. The best way to avoid an issue with the connector is to specify a connector that meets the applicable standard and has an approval from a CEE member lab. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: Denomme, Paul S. paul.deno...@viasystems.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 8:27 AM Subject: DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements Hi all, I am in the process of designing a board that needs to receive DEMKO approval. This board will have 220VAC directly connected to it through a connector. Can anyone tell me what the spacing requirements would be for this board? The board will be conformally coated to minimize the spacing requirements. Also, anyone have experience regarding issues that may come up in regards to the connector? Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Paul S. Denomme Design Engineer Viasystems 804-226-5155 804-226-6056(fax) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
OK, I think we are back to where we started. Best Regards, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway) I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 001701c2b5af$822a26e0$db8066d1@default) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: I have no objection to the house and arrow symbol meaning indoor use only being made an official 417 symbol, but I can forsee no use for it. To inform people who don't, and can't be expected to, understand IP codes? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
John, I have no objection to the house and arrow symbol meaning indoor use only being made an official 417 symbol, but I can forsee no use for it. I would not want to disturb the IP scheme already in place using the IEC 60529 for Ingress Protection (IP). No marking is already established as meaning inadequate IP. There will be no improvement in understanding between the symbol and the IP marking because the use of one excludes the use of the other - or am I missing something? I am essentially satisfied - remembering that my experience is almost all limited to ITE and electronic sub-assemblies where someone following me is concerned with the enclosure. I am also in agreement with Rich Nute's earlier comment, So, it would seem to me that outdoor products should be identified; if not specifically identified for outdoor use, then the product is for indoor use. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway) I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 002701c2b402$6a322280$218066d1@default) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003: John, I didn't word that part very well. I don't know when the indoor use only SYMBOL came into use; that could be recently. I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer standards about 40 years ago. OK, That's clear now. My understanding of the proposal to include the 'house' symbol in IEC 60417 is that, even if the meaning of the symbol is not wholly self-evident, it is more likely to be understood than the current official designations like 'IP31' or 'IP40'. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
John, I didn't word that part very well. I don't know when the indoor use only SYMBOL came into use; that could be recently. I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer standards about 40 years ago. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 3:33 AM Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway) I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 002c01c2b3b9$77154700$8e8066d1@default) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003: My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the transformer standards I have used. I think the 'house' symbol is a NEW thing, not an old one from 40 years ago. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
For what it is worth I did a little research tonight. I have a copy of VDE 0550 part 1, dated 3.59. : It makes no mention of the indoor use only symbol. But is does show classifications for different types of enclosures using the water drop markings. The Protected Type meaning with an enclosure but with no protection against water must have no drop symbol.. However, the marking requirements in the same standard, state in part: With apparatus of protected type the words Only for dry locations shall be included. I looked at old copies of BS 3535 dated 1962, CEE 15 dated 1964, nor IEC 742 dated 1983. There is no such requirement in any of those, for the text or the symbol. I don't have the latest transformer standard. It appears that the international transformer standards simply rely on the IP index ratings. No mark - don't let it get wet.. I have seen the indoor use only symbol on many direct plug in sample transformer (destined for markets in Europe) and never on other appliances. I told vendors they could eliminate it if they wished because it was unnecessary. I suppose the VDE 0550 warning was a requirement that the CEE considered unnecessary. My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the transformer standards I have used. Hats off to John Barnes for locating the Japanese Jate Mark! 73's John. Best Regards, Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 Cell ++ 1 251 979 4648 From: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com To: gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com Cc: Product Safety Technical Committee emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 5:25 PM Subject: Re: strange symbols (to me anyway) Hi Gary: As a result of searching for my copy of the indoor use only symbol, I discovered that I have a reference to the standard where the symbol is published: DIN 30 600 Reg. No. 02808-3 If one of our subscribers has a copy of this standard, perhaps he could verify the reference. If possible, I'd like a copy of the page that describes this symbol. (Or, we could post the copy to our new emc- pstc web site for all to see.) Best regards, Rich --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fire Enclosure Design for NiCad Batteries
I think this product already exists in the form of a battery pack used for professional video equipment. One can see the news media with these Battery Belts at emergencies. Maybe that video industry has some data or prior art that would be useful. Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Fire Enclosure Design for NiCad Batteries I read in !emc-pstc that Peter Merguerian pmerguer...@itl.co.il wrote (in 2D1037012914D4118DB8204C4F4F50203DDF59@ITLLTD01) about 'Fire Enclosure Design for NiCad Batteries' on Tue, 17 Dec 2002: A battery belt made up of polymeric material similar to the one used to manufacture school bags, consists of NiCad batteries. The battery belt is to be used by builders in powering their battery tools during building construction. The NiCad batteries are made of nickel plated steel, with a thickness of 0.4 mm for the can and 1.2 mm for the cover. The 2 parts are insultated with a polyamide insulator ring. Can this construction of the batteries serve as the fire enclosure or should a separate enclosure of more robust construction be made for the batteries? Which standard requires a fire enclosure for steel-cased batteries? I could understand an explosion-containing enclosure, but fire?? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Short circuit tests in GR-1089
I'd like to add that the product need not operate correctly after a fault condition causes a fuse to open, it must only remain safe - within the meaning of the standard. Regards, Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: Ted Rook t...@crestaudio.com To: j...@aol.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Short circuit tests in GR-1089 I'm not an expert on GR1089 but I think that your interpretation should include careful consideration of what constitutes damage. The operation of a fuse or a circuit breaker is not damage. That is normal operation. What the specification is seeking to eliminate is overheating, explosion, loss of insulating properties, improper sizing of conductors and improper sizing of connections, all of which may give rise to damage under short circuit conditions. If the fuse blows and the fuseholder bursts into flames then that is a problem. If the fuse blows and everything fails safe, and normal operation can be restored by replacement of a fuse then no hazardous condition has been created. Does this help? Best Regards Ted Rook, Console Engineering, ext 4659 Please note our new location and phone numbers: Crest Audio Inc, 16-00 Pollitt Drive Fair Lawn, NJ 07410 USA 201 475 4600 telephone receptionist, 8.30 - 5 pm EST. 201 475 4659 direct line w/voice mail, 24 hrs. 201 475 4677 fax, 24 hrs. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: British fused plugs -
Derek: Thanks for the tip. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: lfresea...@aol.com To: ai...@gulftel.com ; gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 8:56 PM Subject: Re: British fused plugs - In a message dated 9/23/02 4:47:15 PM Central Daylight Time, ai...@gulftel.com writes: The shutters stay closed whenever the socket has no plug present to prevent contact with the L or N pins. I suppose this additional protection is considered necessary for children in the UK. Not Additional protection, essential protection A number of plugs now have a sleeve on the live and neutral pins that stop even inadvertant contact during the insertion process. Something I do frequently with US plugs... I have changed all my 230 volt US connectors in my home for English ones. They are just safer. Cheers, Derek. !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEAD META content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type META content=MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500 name=GENERATOR STYLE/STYLE /HEAD BODY bgColor=#ff DIVFONT face=Verdana size=2Derek: Thanks for the tip.nbsp; Rgds, Lou/FONT/DIV DIVLou Aiken, LaMer LLC BR27109 Palmetto DriveBROrange Beach, ALBR36561 USA/DIV DIVnbsp;/DIV DIVtel ++ 1 251 981 6786BRfax ++ 1 251 981 3054/DIV BLOCKQUOTE style=BORDER-LEFT: #00 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px DIV style=FONT: 10pt arial- Original Message - /DIV DIV style=BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: blackBFrom:/B A href=mailto:lfresea...@aol.com; title=lfresea...@aol.comlfresea...@aol.com/A /DIV DIV style=FONT: 10pt arialBTo:/B A href=mailto:ai...@gulftel.com; title=ai...@gulftel.comai...@gulftel.com/A ; A href=mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com; title=gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.comgary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com/A /DIV DIV style=FONT: 10pt arialBCc:/B A href=mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org; title=emc-p...@ieee.orgemc-p...@ieee.org/A /DIV DIV style=FONT: 10pt arialBSent:/B Monday, September 23, 2002 8:56 PM/DIV DIV style=FONT: 10pt arialBSubject:/B Re: British fused plugs - /DIV DIVBR/DIVFONT face=arial,helveticaFONT color=#400080 face=Comic Sans MS lang=0 size=2 FAMILY=SCRIPTIn a message dated 9/23/02 4:47:15 PM Central Daylight Time, A href=mailto:ai...@gulftel.com;ai...@gulftel.com/A writes:BRBR/FONTFONT color=#00 face=Arial lang=0 size=2 style=BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff FAMILY=SANSSERIFBR BLOCKQUOTE style=BORDER-LEFT: #ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px TYPE=CITEThe shutters stay closed whenever the socket has no plug present toBRprevent contact with the L or N pins.nbsp; I suppose this additional protectionBRis considered necessary for children in the UK.BR/BLOCKQUOTEBR/FONTFONT color=#400080 face=Comic Sans MS lang=0 size=2 style=BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff FAMILY=SCRIPTBRNot Additional protection, essential protection A number of plugs now have a sleeve on the live and neutral pins that stop even inadvertant contact during the insertion process. Something I do frequently with US plugs... I have changed all my 230 volt US connectors in my home for English ones. They are just safer.BRBRCheers,BRBRDerek./FONT /FONT/BLOCKQUOTE/BODY/HTML
Re: British fused plugs -
Derek: Thanks for the tip. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: lfresea...@aol.com To: ai...@gulftel.com ; gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 8:56 PM Subject: Re: British fused plugs - In a message dated 9/23/02 4:47:15 PM Central Daylight Time, ai...@gulftel.com writes: The shutters stay closed whenever the socket has no plug present to prevent contact with the L or N pins. I suppose this additional protection is considered necessary for children in the UK. Not Additional protection, essential protection A number of plugs now have a sleeve on the live and neutral pins that stop even inadvertant contact during the insertion process. Something I do frequently with US plugs... I have changed all my 230 volt US connectors in my home for English ones. They are just safer. Cheers, Derek.
Re: British fused plugs -
Many, if not all, British socket outlets have shutters just behind the access openings to the LN contacts. The purpose of the unused earthing pin is to contact a cam just inside the access opening to the earth contact, that mechanically opens the shutters allowing the LN pins to enter the socket. The shutters stay closed whenever the socket has no plug present to prevent contact with the L or N pins. I suppose this additional protection is considered necessary for children in the UK. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: British fused plugs - Cohorts. I may be missing the obvious here. I have a small UPS heading to Dubai. The requirement is for a British style fused plug. The UPS itself, is ungrounded and smack full of agency approvals. When I asked the vendor for a power cord he provided two, one with the ground pin, and the hot and neutral pins. The ground pin isn't connected to anything at the equipment end. The second configuration, and the one I anticipated getting, didn't have the ground pin on the input, or wall outlet side of the power cord. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I see no application for a floating ground pin on the wall outlet side of this connector given that it isn't carried through to the equipment which it is powering? What am I missing? Gary --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: British fused plugs -
Many, if not all, British socket outlets have shutters just behind the access openings to the LN contacts. The purpose of the unused earthing pin is to contact a cam just inside the access opening to the earth contact, that mechanically opens the shutters allowing the LN pins to enter the socket. The shutters stay closed whenever the socket has no plug present to prevent contact with the L or N pins. I suppose this additional protection is considered necessary for children in the UK. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: Gary McInturff gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: British fused plugs - Cohorts. I may be missing the obvious here. I have a small UPS heading to Dubai. The requirement is for a British style fused plug. The UPS itself, is ungrounded and smack full of agency approvals. When I asked the vendor for a power cord he provided two, one with the ground pin, and the hot and neutral pins. The ground pin isn't connected to anything at the equipment end. The second configuration, and the one I anticipated getting, didn't have the ground pin on the input, or wall outlet side of the power cord. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I see no application for a floating ground pin on the wall outlet side of this connector given that it isn't carried through to the equipment which it is powering? What am I missing? Gary --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Water + Electricity
The vaporizor is the application I had in mind to send; I just didn't get around to it. I would tell children: The electricity (current) flows directly through the water in the vaporizor and causes the water to boil making the steam vapor. Most grade school children will have seen vaporizors at one time or another, so they will identify with that. When the vaporizor boils away all of the water the electricity flows through, the boiling and steaming stop. The electrical parts of these vaporizors are made inside of a hard plastic housing to prevent a person from getting shocked by the electricity. Only people that know how to repair vaporizors are allowed to take them apart because they are dangerous when they are outside of the hard plastic housing. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel ++ 1 251 981 6786 fax ++ 1 251 981 3054 - Original Message - From: don_borow...@selinc.com To: Joe P Martin marti...@appliedbiosystems.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Water + Electricity I missed the gist of the question the first time around. A common domestic application of water and electricity can be found in vaporizors. The devices are simply two electrodes at power line potential immersed in water. The active area is restricted a bit to keep the water from convecting excessively. The result is that the water begins to warm due to disolved minerals (providing ions). The elevated temperature increase conductivity, increasing heating, until finally the water starts boiling. The vaporizor shuts off when the level of the water drops below the electrodes. If electroplating is a mixture of water and electricity, then so are most batteries. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA Joe P Martin marti...@appliedbiosystems.com on 09/11/2002 03:58:29 PM Please respond to Joe P Martin marti...@appliedbiosystems.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don Borowski/SEL) Subject: Water + Electricity Greetings, A friend of mine is teaching elementary school students on the dangers of mixing water with electricity. However, he also wants to show examples of situations where water and electricity mix, yet does not cause a problem. Does anyone have any examples? Also, does anyone have a great elementary school explanation as to what elements or conditions are needed to be present before water and electricity become dangerous? All responses are appreciated. Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions
Re: Compliance Primer
Scott, I always preferred to keep it simple. Compliance is developing a product that complies with specific requirements stated in applicable national or international standards developed by recognized experts. We comply with those standards because that is what our customer base expects of us, even though customers rarely mention that expectation. We also comply with the appropriate standards so our products will be acceptable to any third party who may test or evaluate our products. Ordinarily the scope of the standard will be all that is necessary to identify the correct standards. Most products will have requirements stated in more than one standard. For example: there will be a product standard, a transformer standard, a switch standard, a standard for polymeric materials, a standard for fuses, a standard for thermal cut-outs, a standard for radio interference suppression capacitors, standards for appliance couplers, standards for plugs, standard for the power supply cable, and others. Then there are the emc standards, the x-ray and laser standards, etc, etc. Regards Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel 251 981 6786 Fax 251 981 3054 Mobile 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Scott Douglas To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 9:15 AM Subject: Compliance Primer Hi, Does anyone know of any primers on regulatory compliance? Like what compliance is, why we do it, how does one figure out what standards apply to a product, and whatever? Reason I ask is I had these questions posed to me by one of our directors. He wants to learn about compliance. I was caught flat footed. How do you explain what took you 19 years to learn? And that you really don't know as much as you think? I showed him my stack of standards but didn't think that would be a good place for him to start. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, Scott Douglas Senior Compliance Engineer Narad Networks 515 Groton Road Westford, MA 01886 office: 978 589-1869 cell: 978-239-0693 dougl...@naradnetworks.com www.naradnetworks.com
Re: Nema 5-15R sockets
Orientation question I usually mount mine so the ground pin will be below the LN blades because most plugs using the side entry scheme for the cable have the entry point close to the ground pin, and I prefer my cable to hang down rather than stick up above the plug. On the side entry plugs the manufacturer trims the ground wire a bit shorter so the ground wire cannot touch (and possibly short to) the L or N conductors or blades when the hot compound is injected into the mold. To have the cable entry between the LN blades reduces spacing in the plug because the ground wire must pass between the blades. Therefore less movement during molding can be tolerated. The LN conductors must be trimmed, and that wastes about 5mm of cable on each assembly. Regards Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel 251 981 6786 Fax 251 981 3054 Mobile 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: Nema 5-15R sockets A couple of questions about our standard North American 120Vac socket: 1. Orientation: We have lots of people in the office here on both sides of this one, and I can't find a normative reference in the CEC or the NEC. Which is the correct way up when installing a socket on a wall - ground pin above the L and N blades, or L and N above the ground? What is the code reference for this requirement, or is there none? 2. Dimensions: Can anybody share the spec's for the dimensions, with tolerances, of the line, neutral, and ground blades for this configuration? I'm sure it's in the UL and CSA standards but I don't want to spend hundreds of $ for a one-time question. We have no on-going need for these standards! Thanks in advance for your help, Regards, Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Manager, Engineering Services Xantrex Technology Inc. Mobile Power web: www.xantrex.com http://www.xantrex.com Any opinions expressed are accidental. I have none. Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN60950 functional earthing.
My recollection is (without reading the standard) that the make first / break last requirement only applies to connectors operated by the user or other non trained persons. Then it should also seem reasonable that the requirement would not apply to a product meeting ALL class II requirements. However, protection preventing contact (by the test finger) with a live pin of a partially inserted plug or connector WILL apply if the connector can be used by non trained persons, regardless of the protection class.Rgds, Lou Aiken, LaMer LLC 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel 251 981 6786 Fax 251 981 3054 Mobile 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Jon Jones jon.jo...@atltelecom.com To: Emc-Pstc (E-mail) emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: EN60950 functional earthing. Group, Regarding Functional earthing requirements for Class II equipment. Is there a general requirement for the functional earth in an equipments power connector to follow the make first break last rule with regards to EMC (EN55022) and Safety. Thanks in advance Jon Jones ATL telecom. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Hypot Testing Question
This is how I did it, a long time ago. The product was essentially all primary wiring with many relays CB's and triac controlled circuits. The thing was energized through a 1:1 isolating transformer and the hipot voltage was applied between a center tap of the isolating transformer secondary and the grounding means, while the product ran through all possible functions. That is the basic idea; there were several considerations: 1) The hipot detector must ignore the reactive current flowing through the isolation transformer. 2) There must be a scheme that allows the operator to run the product safely during the test. 3) I had to have the transformer specially made with creepage distances suitable for the hipot voltage. I am sure there were other concerns. It has been a long time. However, it did work. Due to functional testing we were satisfied that there were no across the line shorts prior to the hipot test. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cell ++1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: sbr...@prodigy.net To: EMC/Safety List Server Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 22:19 Subject: Hypot Testing Question I have some products which fall under UL61010A-1 and have several relays and contactors in the primary circuits. During the hypot test it is my understanding that all relays and contactors in primary need to be in the on state to allow the test voltage to fully circulate within the primary circuit, thereby allowing a valid hypot test. It is taking a good deal of time to properly set the unit up to do the test, and then remove all of the jumpers before the unit ships. Does anyone have any ideas, recommendations or suggestions on ways to speed the process? Some units may have upwards of 7 contactors and relays. I am also looking for some way to combine the hypot test with a shorts test to verify that there are no shorts due to wiring errors from line to line (single and three phase products). Again, any suggestions or recommendations are welcome. Thanks in advance, Steve Brody sbr...@prodigy.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: NEC Wiring Question
NEC Wiring QuestionIt would seem to me, withOUT searching the code, that the only restriction is that the overcurrent protection scheme provide the necessary protection for the smaller conductor. There may be some restrictions in other product specific standards. Rgds, Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cell ++1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Michael Taylor To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:14 Subject: NEC Wiring Question Greetings all, An issue came up in a product 61010 safety evaluation and no one here can remember if you can / can't do it. Does anyone out in Cyberland know if the NEC allows 2 wires of different sizes (awg) to be clamped together in a clamping type PC mounted wiring terminal. The wire is striped bare inserted into a slot on the side of a terminal block that has a screw on top for tightening. I seem to remember the code does not allow wires of different gauges to be clamped together under a single compression clamping terminal. I have searched the NEC and can't find anything on this. Can anyone remember chapter verse on this issue. If I'm wrong, please be kind, the 60 hour weeks are getting to us. Thanks in advance Michael Taylor Colorado
Re: EMC and Class 2 equipment
This has been my experience with Class II switching power supplies. The absence of the earth connection will make very little difference in the emissions. But, without the earth connection the leakage current requirement is much lower. (For ITE, 3.5mA is allowed for Class I, but only 0.25mA is allowed for Class II equipment ). Therefore to meet the 0.25mA leakage current limit the cap value must be reduced. With the cap value reduced the power supply will no longer meet the conducted emission limits. Then to reduce the conducted emissions, the common mode choke inductance must be increased. I am only a product safety person with very little EMC experience , but it seems be a simple voltage divider issue. With these changes the power supply can meet the conducted emissions and also the leakage current limit. Therefore, the desire for a class II switching power supply must be great enough to justify the increased cost and physical size of the common mode choke. But I have gotten several of them through world wide safety approvals. A final word: I recommend that you NOT try to modify an existing Class I design to meet the Class II leakage current and EMC requirements. Regards, Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cell ++1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: am...@westin-emission.no To: EMC-PSTC Internet Forum Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: EMC and Class 2 equipment Hi all, Ground connections is usually nice to have when dealing with EMC. But what about EMC and a class 2 (double insulation) power supply (shall comply with MIL-STD-461E) . I'm thinking on, what to do with the regularly Y-caps, does it really have any meaning with these caps when ground is absent? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Fw: Wire spool labeling requirements
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Wire spool labeling requirements Doug, I THINK it boils down to revenue. Wire label costs are based on length of wire on the spool, reel, etc. The inspector wants to make sure that spool did not slip out of the wire mill before the mill purchased the label. The surface marking in the wire insulation does not have that level of control. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cel ++1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: POWELL, DOUG To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:26 PM Subject: Wire spool labeling requirements Over the years, there is a question that has plagued me (there are many others). This one is just a curiosity and maybe someone in this group knows the answer. Four times a year we are audited for our NRTL certifications and the inspector makes it clear that using wire in our products with the UL recognition and CSA certification marks is not sufficient. Even though we have incoming inspection records, it seems they always want to see the wire spool in our stock rooms and make sure it has the proper labels. I understand all the concerns with using an approved respooling house to maintain the integrity of the wire. What I don't understand is how a simple adhesive label on the spool is better evidence than the embossed markings that appear along the entire length of the wire. It seems to me that if someone wished to fraudulently mark a wire as approved material, the labeling of the spool is easily done and would be the least of their worries. Can anyone explain the history behind this requirement? thanks, -doug --- Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Mail stop: 203024 1626 Sharp Point Drive Ft. Collins, CO 80525 970.407.6410 (phone) 970-407.5410 (fax) mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com --- _ This message, including any attachments, may contain information that is confidential and proprietary information of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. The dissemination, distribution, use or copying of this message or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited without the express written consent of Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Immunity for Automobiles
Gentlefolk: Will any of you EMC experts tell me what immunity standard(s) apply to a new production automobile? I am a PSE person and therefore discard most of the EMC messages, but I seem to remember a string of automobile concerns not too long ago but evidently I have already dumped them. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cel ++1 251 979 4648
Re: European and North American Cordage
Oscar, Here is what I learned from Feller, the supplier of the so called universal cord. Feller calls it HARSJT3x18AWG. The limited applications are: The jumper cable with the C13 C14 connector and shrouded plug; we already knew about that. The same, but to extend the mains cord when the socket outlet is located too far from the product. This is the cost saving idea when the volumes are low: The Feller customer orders the most common assembly consisting of the universal cord and the fully approved C13 connector. Then, when the customer ships to a country that needs a plug other than the most common plug, it is replaced with a rewirable plug for use in that particular country. This avoids a high unit price when the volumes are low, and still provides a fully approved assembly. It sounds clever to me. Maybe that is what Peter Merguerian had in mind when he asked where to get the cord. He did not ask us if he should or should not specify the universal cord; he only wanted to know where to get it.. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: oover...@lexmark.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: RE: European and North American Cordage Because of the different mains plugs required in the different countries I have never seen much advantage to universal cordage. The one exception to this is a jumper cord that has an IEC320, C-13 connector on one end and a C-14 connector on the other. This type of power cord is independent of the mains connector and can be used in any country that is within the current limits. This minimizes the number of part numbers of jumper cords that need to be stocked and keeps the possiblity of putting the wrong cord into the box. MOO (My Opinions Only) WELLMAN,RON (A-PaloAlto,ex1) ron_wellman%agilent@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/08/2002 11:28:32 AM Please respond to WELLMAN,RON (A-PaloAlto,ex1) ron_wellman%agilent@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'jrbar...@lexmark.com' john_barnes.lexm...@sweeper.lex.lexmark.com, Peter Merguerian pmerguerian%itl.co...@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: European and North American Cordage Howdy all, Having been involved with power cords and cord sets for quite some time I have never seen an advantage in using Universal cordage. Therefore, I would be interested to hear from people what they have to say about their usage of Universal cordage and what they have benefited from using it. I am specifically interested in certification and material costs when using Universal cordage versus HAR or UL/CSA certified cordage. Regards, +=+ |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229 | |Agilent Technologies |FAX : 408-553-2412 | |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com| |Mailstop 54L-BB |WWW : http://www.agilent.com | |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA| | +=+ | Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age | | eighteen. - Albert Einstein | +=+ -Original Message- From: jrbar...@lexmark.com [mailto:jrbar...@lexmark.com] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:21 PM To: Peter Merguerian; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: European and North American Cordage Peter, We used a HARSVT 3x18AWG 1.00mm2 Universal linecord from Feller on the Lexmark MarNet XLe External Network Adapter. This had a Harmonized plus UL/CSA-listed cordage. I can't find my Feller catalog right now, and their website (http://www.feller-at.com/ ) doesn't say, but I think that they had HARSVT cordage in 16AWG and 14AWG, along with HARSJT cordage. John Barnes Advisory Engineer Lexmark International --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: definition of off
According to my understanding of 950, which is much better than 65, I believe a product must be safe, within the meaning of the standard during unattended operation and also when unattended in so-called off mode. Consequently, the status of the product when in the off mode, should be determined by the manufacturer, and the safety authorities should show little interest. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Colgan, Chris To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:20 AM Subject: definition of off What is clear from IEC60065 is that if a product is capable of being switched on or off or both by a timer or a data link, a front panel mechanically operated switch is not required. What is not clear is the definition of off. Has anyone been given a definition, preferably by a CTL member or the like? Cheers Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Arc Fault Interrupters are Next
This is what happens when politicians start practicing outside the scope of their abilities. An arc fault interrupter instead of a plug containing a substantial inter support? - as the European plugs have had as long as I can remember. We have no insertion extraction force specification for socket outlets? - as the CEE and other national standards require in Europe..- CEE 7, Clause 22. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Notice the area codes tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 334 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Kenneth McCormick To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:31 AM Subject: RE: skinny power cords. I think the answer to the problem exists. The 2002 version of the National Electric Code will require Arc Fault Interrupters in bedrooms. See the link below from the CPSC for details. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html
Re: UL2725 UL2835 on USB cables
Those sound like style sheet numbers. Look at the UL certification records under appliance wiring material. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Notice the area codes tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 334 979 4648 - Original Message - From: brian_ku...@leco.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: UL2725 UL2835 on USB cables Greetings, We are looking for a good quality 10 foot USB cable. We have an application where the USB cable must have a low impedance in the shield and shield termination to pass the emissions and immunity tests for Europe. Not knowing much about USB I did some research on the Web and USB cables. Many cable manufacturers lists UL2725 and UL2835 in the cable specs. What are these UL standards pertaining to? I check with UL and they said these are not UL standards. Where did they come from? In addition to the above information, I would appreciate any recommendations on where to find a good quality USB cable and how to tell a good one from a poor one either by measurement or by specification. Thanks in advance for any replies. Brian Kunde LECO Corp. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Protective Bonding-UL 60950 (replacement for UL 1950)
Kurt, be aware that IF the insulation between all parts of the hinged door and any uninsulated part operating at hazardous voltage will fully meet the requirements for reinforced (or double) insulation (hipot, creepage distance, clearance, insulation thickness etc.) grounding the hinged door is unnecessary. The hinged door can be considered to have class II protection (against electric shock) even though it is part of a class I appliance. Refer to the standard for the details. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel +1 334 981 6786 fax +1 334 981 3054 mobile +1 334 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Andrews, Kurt To: EMC-PSTC Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Protective Bonding-UL 60950 (replacement for UL 1950) Hi group, We are designing a new piece of class I equipment to be evaluated under UL 60950 (replaced UL 1950). The equipment has a metal enclosure. It has a metal access panel that is hinged at the bottom with a piano type hinge. It is secured at the top by two screws. This panel is hinged so that the customer's service personnel can have access to a PC board for configuration purposes. There are hazardous (AC mains) voltages behind this panel. We are concerned that this panel may not make a reliable earth connection to the rest of the metal enclosure, especially if the customer fails to fully tighten the two screws. We are planning on adding a wire from this panel to a side panel of the enclosure to reliably ground the panel to the rest of the enclosure. This wire will be on the inside of the unit. According to UL 60950 this wire would be considered a Protective Bonding Conductor. We are planning on using a stranded 14 AWG wire with ring terminals on both ends for this Protective Bonding Conductor. It would be fastened to the two panels via threaded studs mounted in the panels. We plan on placing the ring terminals on the studs and securing them with toothed lock washers and nuts. I have a question about the requirements for this Protective Bonding Conductor. According to UL 60950, clause 2.6.5.7, at least two screws must be used for each connection. Does this clause apply in a case such as this? Or is it meant to be used in cases where two metal panels are fastened together with screws to provide Protective Bonding between the panels. I don't really see how we can use two screws for each connection when using a wire for this purpose unless there is a crimp terminal that has two rings on it which I haven't seen. I have copied the clause from UL 60950 below for your reference. Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Kurt Andrews Compliance Engineer Tracewell Systems, Inc. 567 Enterprise Drive Westerville, Ohio 43081 voice: 614.846.6175 toll free: 800.848.4525 fax: 614.846.7791 http://www.tracewellsystems.com/ http://www.tracewellsystems.com/ 2.6.5.7 Screws for protective bonding NOTE -The following requirements are additional to those in 3.1.6. Self-tapping (thread-cutting and thread-forming) and spaced thread (sheet metal) screws are permitted to provide protective bonding but it shall not be necessary to disturb the connection during servicing. In any case, the thickness of the metal part at the point where a screw is threaded into it shall be not less than twice the pitch of the screw thread. It is permitted to use local extrusion of a metal part to increase the effective thickness. At least two screws shall be used for each connection. However, it is permitted to use a single self-tapping screw provided that the thickness of the metal part at the point where the screw is threaded into it is a minimum of 0,9 mm for a screw of the thread-forming type and 1,6 mm for a screw of the thread-cutting type. Compliance is checked by inspection. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Australian power cable requirements.
There is a point where the tolerances on the AWG and the metric sizes overlap and allow a single cord to be approved as both SJT and HO5VV in North America and Europe. Australia will accept the Eurpoean cable. I know it is made by Feller Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: Fleury, Bill bi...@artesyncp.com To: 'Russell, Ray' ray_russ...@gastmfg.com; 'Cameron O'phee' O'p...@ali.com.au; 'EMC - PSTC Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: RE: Australian power cable requirements. I believe wire gauge might be an issue as well. Bill Fleury -Original Message- From: Russell, Ray [mailto:ray_russ...@gastmfg.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 6:46 AM To: 'Cameron O'phee'; 'EMC - PSTC Forum' Subject: RE: Australian power cable requirements. Cameron, I had a similar situation some time ago with an internal cable and it had to do with the insulation thickness. The SJT cord was only rated 300V, and the insulation thickness did not meet the European standard. We changed to a 600V cord, which was accepted. Ray Russell r...@gastmfg.com -Original Message- From: Cameron O'phee [mailto:O'p...@ali.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 8:23 PM To: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' Subject: Australian power cable requirements. Hi All, I have a situation where the test house I normally use for safety will accept SJT cordage for an internal power cable but a different test house will not. The power cable conducts 240v from one power supply to another, with both supplies internal to the machine. The second test house insists that the cordage must be H05VVF. Consequentely, I would like to know the difference in requirements between the US SJT cordage and European H05VVF. Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 -- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only to be read or used by the addressee. The information contained in this e-mail message may be confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, distribution, disclosure or copying of this material is unauthorised and prohibited. Confidentiality attached to this communication is not waived or lost by reason of the mistaken delivery to you. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and notify us by return e-mail or telephone Aristocrat Technologies Australia Pty Limited on +61 2 9413 6300. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com
Re: SELV vs ELV
Perhaps the connector contains both mains and secondary circuits and does NOT provide reinforced insulation between those circuits - or maybe not. In any case the problem surrounding the connector can best be answered by the engineer at UL who determined the connector is the reason the output could be considered only ELV. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: Dave Wilson dwil...@alidian.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:21 PM Subject: SELV vs ELV We've been looking at a PSU which has UL recognition. Our -48V DC CO equipment has been assessed with respect to being powered from SELV source and this is stated in our UL report, but now that I've received a copy of the UL report for the PSU, it states that the output is ELV, not SELV, because of the connector interfacing the modules to the rack. The obvious answer is that we can't use it, but what is the practical reason for not being able to use ELV, given that they're both limited to below 60V DC and that our equipment is Class I earthed. Thanks! Dave Wilson Alidian Networks Inc. tel: (408) 273 4787 fax: (408) 273 4800 www.alidian.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Do not dial 9, 0, #, then hang up when requested.
This does NOT happen when I try it between my two separate phone lines. Rgds. Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: david_l_tarnow...@email.whirlpool.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:06 AM Subject: Do not dial 9, 0, #, then hang up when requested. __ Forward Header __ Subject: Do not dial 9, 0, #, then hang up when requested. Author: cfil...@sears.com at INTERNET Date:3/19/2001 7:44 AM PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING WARNING FROM IRV LEVINSON: I received a telephone call last evening from an individual identifying himself as an 'ATT Service Technician' who was conducting a test on telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I should touch nine(9), zero (0), pound (#), and then hang up. Luckily, I was suspicious and refused. Upon contacting the telephone company, I was informed that by pushing 90#, you give the requesting individual full access to your telephone line, which enables them to place long distance calls billed to your home phone number. I was further informed that this scam has been originating from many local jails/prisons. I have also verified this information with UCB Telecom, Pacific Bell, MCI, Bell Atlantic and GTE. Please beware. DO NOT press 9 0 # for ANYONE. The GTE Security Department requested that I share this information with EVERYONE I KNOW. PLEASE pass this on to everyone YOU know. If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you are connected with, I encourage you to pass on this information to them, too. After checking with Verizon, they said it was true so do not dial nine (9), zero (0), pound (#) and hang up for anyone! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EU/EFTA Members and Languages
Swedish is also an official language in Finland. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: wo...@sensormatic.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: EU/EFTA Members and Languages Here is information I have found from various sources. Is French the official language of Luxembourg? Let me know if there are any errors in this table. Are there any other countries that are adopting EU directives? Code Country EU/EFTA Official Languages AT Austria EU German BE Belgium EU Dutch, French DE Germany EU German DK Denmark EU Danish FI Finland EU Finnish FR France EU French GB United Kingdom EU English GR Greece EU Greek IE Ireland EU English IS Iceland EFTA Icelandic IT Italy EU Italian LI Liechtenstein EFTA German LU Luxembourg EU French? NL Netherlands EU Dutch NO Norway EFTA Norwegian PT Portugal EU Portuguese SE Sweden EU Swedish SE Switzerland EFTA German, French, Italian SP Spain EU Spanish Richard Woods --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: UL rec. needed on custom transformer ???
I am presently faced with a similar concren on a much smaller 50VA switching transformer that I have told the vendor to get construction only recognition (category XORU2). My decision is based on how the UL Engineer describes the transformer in MY report. If he calls out the mfg P/N and maybe a physical size, then I am satisfied. But if he mentions n/turns, wire size, spacings, etc.etc, then I will ask the vendor for the construction only recognition. So, my thinking all starts with my own UL engineer. rgds, lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: Chris Wells To: 'emc-pstc' Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: UL rec. needed on custom transformer ??? Question - What is the simplest, least expensive, way to define an isolation transformer used in a UL508 (or similar standard) recognized product? The transformer is a custom design made by a magnetics vendor for use in our industrial products. The product is manufactured under a UL coordinated insulation system or recipe. Do I need the manufacture to obtain a UL construction file? I am concerned about managing our UL inspections since I can not prove the construction at our sight. What is the best way to handle the inspection issues? I run into this issue with some of our switch mode power supply isolation transformers. Typically these have a construction file. But I have been told that I don't always need to do this. I am confused! Details - My latest application is a Current Transformer used in power distributions systems. A power main transformer steps down the supply current to 0-5 Amp and then the CT in my product steps this down again to mA range for measurement purposes. These CTs in my product become referenced safety barriers in the UL product file but do not normally have high voltages on the primary. My magnetics vendor says I do not need the construction file but I do not see how I can get a split inspection with UL inspecting the CT at the vendor, with out this. Is there another way? Guidance on this topic would be most appreciated. Thank you Chris Wells Senior Des Eng. cdwe...@stargate.net Cutler-Hammer 412 490 6862
Fw: Neutral/Earth connections
.From: Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com To: k3row k3...@eurobell.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Neutral/Earth connections There should ne no connection between any current carrying conductor and the frame of the product; in the USA or anywhere else in my opinion. I don't know what you mean by a 120-0-120 supply. I thought the UK was 240/416 3 phase. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: k3row k3...@eurobell.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 1:27 PM Subject: Neutral/Earth connections The company that I work for in the U.K has recentlyreceived from the USA an item of test equipment, provided to us under contract, in which, we discovered, the 240v neutral line was connected to earth/unit chassis. This became apparent when the unit was plugged into a U.K 120-0-120 supply and protective devices tripped.. My questions are these: I am not familiar with US safety standards. Am I correct in assuming that, for instance, the National Electrical Code and standards such as UL 1950 would only allow such a neutral/earth connection within the equipment if the power source is derived from, say, an isolation transformer? Or is there no U.S standardisation with regard to this. Given that we were not informed in advance of any such constraint on the manner in which power was to be supplied to the equipment, I wonder how widespread the issue of supply of such equipment to the U.K might be. Any comments anyone? What would be the view of people in the USA with respect of the supply of such an item of equipment to the U.K. Do US Standards, Codes of Practice etc dictate that supplied equipment must be safe when used in the receiving country, as opposed to the supplying country? Thanks for reading this. I look forward to any comments Dave Palmer --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Bulgarian requirements
I would ask NEMKO. They have a department dedicated to those Eastern approval requirement issues. The contact person is Morten Smith. Int 47 22 96 03 30 gets the main switchboard. Rgds, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: Hougaard, Niels niels.houga...@barco.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Jensen, Tobias Lykkegaard tobias.jen...@barco.com Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 9:08 AM Subject: Bulgarian requirements To the group, a Bulgarian customer has asked if we comply with the following standards: Safety: BSS 12.2.006.0-80, prBSS EN60950 and BSS 14525 EMC: BSS EN 55022 and BSS EN 50082-1. prBSS EN60950, BSS EN 55022 and BSS EN 50082-1 seem wellknown but does anybody know if there are national deviations in these Bulgarian versions? Does anybody know BSS 12.2.006.0-80 and/or BSS 14525, or where to find more about these standards? Thanks in advance Venlig hilsen/Kind regards Niels Hougaard EMC Engineer, B.Sc.E.E BARCO AS/Communication Systems Phone direct: +45 39170815 Fax: +45 39170010 Mailto:niels.houga...@barco.com www.barco.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Ladders and work platforms
Rick, I guess nobody knows. Here is what I would do. Phone the BSI Standards Department at 0908 22 11 66 (that phone number is about 15 years old) and find out the source of the BS 5395, Part 3 you have. Many British Standards have a cousin somewhere else in Europe. If this is a dead end, get the names of some committee members for BS 5395 Part 3; then get in touch with one of them and ask the same question. Somewhere along the way you will discover someone that knows the ladder business. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648 - Original Message - From: rbus...@es.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 9:26 AM Subject: Ladders and work platforms I am still trying to locate a European starndard that would address the issue of performing maintenace tasks from a ladder. The following message is being reposted: I am looking for suggestions for European standards with regard to ladders and maintenance platforms. I have a copy of British Standard BS 5395: Part 3: 1985. Stairs, ladders and walkways and was wondering if there might be other applicable European standards. Thanks in advance Rick Busche Evans Sutherland rbus...@es.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Circuit Breakers vs. Fuses for Global Markets
References: UL 198G, IEC 127 There is no such thing as a fuse that meets both standards. The gate requirements are conflict between UL 198G and IEC 127. I don't know for sure but I suspect the circuit breaker standards are similar. The UL fuse must hold 110% of rated current for one hour and clear at 135% in less than one hour. The IEC fuse must hold 150% of rated current for one hour and clear at 210% in 3 minutes, or 30 minutes depending upon the standard sheet for the particular characteristics of the fuse; ie, time lag, high breaking capacity, quick acting, low breaking capacity, etc. UL will not List a fuse that does not meet the UL 198G gate requirement. A CENELEC testhouse will not issue a license for a fuse that does not meet ALL applicable IEC 127 requirements, only one of which is the gate limits. FOR PROTECTION AGAINST SHORT CIRCUITS, or GROUND FAULTS - where a low impedance causes a high fault current either fuse will operate in a sufficiently short time to prevent the appliance from becoming unsafe, just as Rich Nute mentioned in his message a week or so ago. While UL will not List an IEC fuse, they will Recognize them. UL Recognized Component fuses are readily available with CENELEC testhouse approval marks (SEMKO, VDE and SEV are the most common). UL will NOT accept fuses according to IEC 127 in a listed product, even when approved by one of those premier CENELEC member testhouses, unless they are ALSO Recognized Components. That sounds narrow minded but the UL position is that the fuse factory must have UL follow-up service. CSA will accept the fuse approved by a CNELEC member testhouse in a Certified product without question. Therefore for protection against ground faults or short circuits in a product with a rated voltage of 100V - 240V one can specify a fuse meeting the requirements of IEC 127 with a CENELEC member approval mark, AND also with UL Recognized component status. That scheme should not be questioned in any country and will satisfy the requirements for protection against ground faults or short circuits on any utilization circuit voltage between 100 and 240 volts. FOR PROTECTION AGAINST OVERCURRENT CONDITIONS, that is a condition where the fuse must operate within a rather narrow range, such as thermal protection for a motor or transformer, one should specify the fuse meeting the correct national requirements. UL/CSA Listed/Certified for North America, or an approval according to IEC 127 from a CENELEC member test house for the rest of the world. This is because the difference between the 100 - 120 volt range and the 220 - 240 volt will require a fuse with a different current rating anyway. So, the fact that the fuse standards conflict is no longer a problem. Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 U.S.A. tel1-334-981-6786 fax 1-334-981-3054 mobile 1-334-979-4648
Re: Ground Bond Testers
I would use an transformer type electric welder. Rgds, Lou Best Regards, Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drivetel 1 334 981 6786 Orange Beach, ALfax 1 334 981 3054 36561 USA car 1 334 979 4648 - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Why are CB reports truly useful?
Here are my thoughts on CB Certificates: I have gotten CB Certificates with the complete test report accepted in countries that were NOT members of the CB Scheme. After they became readily available I have always requested a CB Certificate and complete test report before I approved the use of an alternate power supply or CD ROM drive. If a lab does a decent job of testing the power supply or the CD ROM drive they will have produced a test report anyway. So the addition of the certificate is not a big hit. I review the test report and ask that any omissions or mistakes are corrected, before I send it anywhere else. Usually there are some minor problems even from the very best labs. Consequently, the alternate power supplies or CD ROM drives are approved for use in a certified product with very little cost and effort - just send them the certificare, the test report and a sample. If you request the lab to test the laser output of the CD ROM drive during fault conditions. and find it can't exceed class I limits (per 825) and state that in the test report, it will cost very little extra and save the cost of translating all of the required laser safety messages. Regards, Lou Aiken Begin Forwarded Message Return-Path: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org From: pe...@itl.co.il (Peter Merguerian) To: ri...@sdd.hp.com, ron_pick...@hypercom.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:11:15 +0200 Subject: Re: Why are CB reports truly useful? CC: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Reply-To: pe...@itl.co.il (Peter Merguerian) Ron Hi! In short, the new CB full Certification Scheme will allow acceptance by another CB member of BOTH the test results and construction. Under the present scheme, another CB member should accept test results but has the right to ask for sample(s) and other pertinent information for a construction evaluation. Based on my experience, CB could be a pain in the neck. Here is one example: Consider a product with an Approved Switching Power Supply. Unless the power supply has a CB Test Report of its own (and most do not!) the certification agency must include an evaluation of the power supply. This means you have to contact the power supply manufacturer and ask him to provide all the necessary information and/or samples needed by the certification agency in order to issue the CB Certificate. Now imagine a manufacturer had more than one or altenate power supplies in his product. As we all know, most power supplies in the market today are UL Recognized and/or CSA Certified and TUV/VDE Approved. Therefore, it seems that the best approach to get a CB for a product with switching power supply(ies) is to go to UL/CSA/TUV or VDE, all who have a record of the power supply safety evaluation (including schematics, parts list, etc.). This really is not fair to the other CB certifiers who have paid lots of money to get their labs accredited under the CB program. Regards PETER MERGUERIAN End Forwarded Message Best Regards, Lou Aiken 27106 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel 1 334 981 6786 fax 1 334 981 3054 - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Insulation for hazarous voltage circuits
Richard: The insulation you describe below is indeed operational because, by definition, it does NOT protect against electric shock (see 1.2.9.1). Therefore, I believe the table 0.1 is, in the situation you describe, very questionable. However, this situation is never ending. If one begins to think about possible discontinuity of the exposed metal parts, and the possiblity of touching the surface of the insulation in question you can easily convince your self that insulation on a hazardous secondary circuit should be reinforced! There is essentially no difference between the physical requirements between basic and operational insulation. So I recommend you forget the terminology. Just perform the fault testing, make sure it cannot be touched by the test finger, and move on to the next product Regards, Lou Begin Forwarded Message Return-Path: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org From: WOODS, RICHARD wo...@sensormatic.com To: 'emc-pstc' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Insulation for hazarous voltage circuits List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: WOODS, RICHARD wo...@sensormatic.com IEC 950 and its clones require basic insulation between earthed or unearthed secondary hazardous voltage circuits and earthed conductive parts (Clause 2.2.6 and Table 0.1). Can someone please explain why basic rather than operational insulation is required? Let's take a simple example. Assume a hazardous secondary winding with a bridge rectifier, filter capacitor and a load resistor where the negative side of the supply is earthed. Note that the positive side of the circuit must have basic insulation to earth, but the capacitor and resistor are bridging the insulation. Fault testing requires us to short the capacitor or resistor to ensure no hazards exist. And, indeed, no electrical shock hazard will exist even if the mains earthing connection is open. So why isn't operational insulation sufficient in this example? - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Surface Color of Primary Internal Insulated Wire
I think some of you are reading something into the standards that is not there. The color of internal conductors is not specified beyond the well-known green/yellow reserved to identify earthing conductors. For equipment connected with a non-detachable power cord or provided with an appliance inlet, my PERSONAL opinion is that both LN conductor insulation should have the same surface color because it is improper to distinguish between the LN conductors when in many countries the socket outlet is randomly connected with either polarity. It would only be acceptable (but not required) to identify the LN in some countries, such as the UK, Australia, where polarity is strictly observed. In other countries such as Switzerland, USA, Canada, identification of polarity identification would be acceptable (but not required) IF the equipment were provided with an earthing means. However the ungrounded power plug in these countries will fit into the socket outlet with either polarity, so LN identification would be improper. The German plug used in many other countries will fit into the socket outlet with either polarity so identification would be improper. Therfore, in the one product world, the lowest common denominator is to make both LN insulation surface the same color, OR if for some other reason such as to facilitate assembly or servicing, color combinations should be selected that have no meaning in the wiring rules of any countries. I have always specified both black or when necessary black and black with a contrasting tracer. Best Regards, Lou Aiken 27106 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel 1 334 981 6786 fax 1 334 981 3054
Power adaptors for travelers
These adapters cannot carry the CE mark because there is no harmonized standard for them. They cannot have a national approval because one end of the adapter will meet one national standard and the other end will meet different conflicting national standard. The best I can tell, no one cares to get involved with the problems that could develop certifying one half of a product to another country's national standard. Furthermore, they are rarely used in the country where they are sold. I think everyone that should object to the sale or use of the adapters deliberately remains quiet. Because they are not approved I have objected to them being furnished with approved products and my objections have always been upheld by management. Regards, Lou Aikrn Begin Forwarded Message Return-Path: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org From: Campi, Mike mca...@fpc.fujitsu.com To: 'EMC/PSTC' emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Power adaptors for travelers List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:29 -0700 Reply-To: Campi, Mike mca...@fpc.fujitsu.com Are power adaptors (the ones that travelers use to be able plug into different outlets in different countries) required to be marked with the CE mark. I know the Electrical Equipment (implementing the Low Voltage Directive) Guidance Notes on Regulations, Annex B states that Plugs and socket outlets for domestic use are excluded from these regulations. If this is true for these plug adaptors, then are they required to meet the local requirements and marked accordingly? Mike Campi Fujitsu PC Corp.
FDA Modernization Program
A lot of info is on the web, search for FDA. Then after you are completely confused call Walter Snesko at the FDA. He has a toll free number 800 638 2041, extention 120. Rgds Lou Begin Forwarded Message Return-Path: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org From: sitar...@kodak.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: 2203...@knotes.kodak.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:02:02 -0400 Subject: FDA Modernization Program Reply-To: sitar...@kodak.com From Lotus Notes user: Michael J Sitarski Does anyone know about the FDA Modernization Program regarding Medical Devices? Does it pertain to EMC? Can you direct me to a source of further information? Thank you in advance for your responses.
EN-60950 Question ...
I don't really understand your note. Does the leakage current exceed 3.5 mA or not? If yes, you cannot use an ordinary plug or an IEC 320 appliance coupler. IEC 950 clause 1.2.5.2 (the A4 change) requires an industrial plug the appliance coupler meet IEC 309 or a comparable national standard. The spirit behind the requirements is to prevent the layperson from buying an appliance that has a leakage current high enough to increase the risk of electric shock and then simply plug it into a socket outlet without a ground contact. Remember many grounded plugs used in Europe will fit the ungrounded socket outlets. The industrial plug SHOULD cause him to call an electrician or at least read the warning label. By not allowing the IEC 320 appliance coupler the user is prevented from buying an ordinary cord set to connect the appliance to an ungrounded socket outlet because the IEC 309 connector will not fit the IEC 320 appliance inlet on the appliance. If the leakage current is less than 3.5 mA then you can use the ordinary plug and an appliance coupler according to IEC 320. Clause 5.2.5 does not apply because 5.2.5 only applies to the appliance if the leakage current exceeds 3.5 mA. Regards, Lou Aiken Begin Forwarded Message From: Doug McKean dmck...@paragon-networks.com To: EMC-PSTC emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: EN-60950 Question ... List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: Doug McKean dmck...@paragon-networks.com Situation: Piece of equipment measures over 3.5 milli-amps for earth leakage test: According to EN-60950 5.2.5: Equipment with an earth leakage current exceeding 3,5 mA CLASS I STATIONARY that is PERMANENTLY CONNECTED EQUIPMENT, or that is PLUGGABLE EQUIPMENT TYPE B ... then three conditions follow one of which is labeling requirements. Definition of PLUGGABLE EQUIPMENT TYPE B is located in 1.2.5.2. Questions: If you claim your equipment is pluggable type equipment type A: Definition of pluggable type equipment type A is located in 1.2.5.1. Are you exempt from 5.2.5 ??? Are you allowed to use IEC-320 connectors? What really constitutes the difference between pluggable type equipment type A versus pluggable type equipment type B? Just the plug? Or better, what is the spirit behind all this? Do you have to state this in product material to the customer? Regards, Doug End Forwarded Message Best Regards, Lou Aiken 27106 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel 1 334 981 6786 fax 1 334 981 3054
