Re: [PSES] ITAR scope
In message f014332fd18a4c749c3ed712650e0...@tamuracorp.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: I probably should be concerned if our capitalist AC was converted to marxist/extremist DC power. Teslacity will always overcome Edisonism. (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK I was thinking of learning beer-making, but since I like honey, I chose meadier studies. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes: Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial deep-fat fryer. What's the latest? IEC 60335-2-13 Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14) Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: Particular requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar appliances This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got round to making a separate standard for commercial appliances. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message 4ec19e99.7060...@aol.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes: I guess I find this nonsense. ANYTHING abused looks dangerous. More examples of Nanny state control. Yes, but if they didn't do it, UL would be sued for $100 by everyone who sets their fryer on fyer. That may happen anyway because the person concerned can't read English. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be1b1...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro soft.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes: If the fryer is used by laymen, IEC 60335-2-13 is likely the correct standard. Its scope includes the following text. Appliances intended for normal household and similar use and that may also be used by laymen in shops, in light industry and on farms are within the scope of this standard. However, if the appliance is intended to be used professionally to process food for commercial consumption, the appliance is not considered to be for household and similar use only. This would appear to cover deep-fat fryers used in restaurants and shops, but not food processing plants. Yes, BUT, as I said, SC61E hasn't got round to making a special standard for commercial fryers. So the 'standards route' to complying with the LVD in Europe is to use 60335-2-13 and include in the safety assessment document the reasons why that standard is applicable to your particular product. That can, if necessary, be supplemented by an opinion from a Notified Body. A product that's safe in a home or restaurant doesn't automatically become unsafe if it's moved into a plant. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message eca7cebe-86a4-4fe8-942b-a4cecc5f6...@conformance.co.uk, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk writes: 60335-2-37 is for commercial appliances but isn't much use for gas fired or food factory type equipment. That's peculiar: I thought that such a standard existed but a search of the IEC SC61E web site didn't show it. I think I know why: the page I asked for didn't appear, but one that resembled it did. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message nyjtypaolzwof...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes: In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes: Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial deep-fat fryer. What's the latest? IEC 60335-2-13 Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14) Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: Particular requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar appliances This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got round to making a separate standard for commercial appliances. CORRECTION IEC 60335-2-37 applies. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
In message eb8hcucbwgwof...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, dated Tue, 15 Nov 2011, John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes: In message e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be1b1...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro soft.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes: If the fryer is used by laymen, IEC 60335-2-13 is likely the correct standard. Its scope includes the following text. Appliances intended for normal household and similar use and that may also be used by laymen in shops, in light industry and on farms are within the scope of this standard. However, if the appliance is intended to be used professionally to process food for commercial consumption, the appliance is not considered to be for household and similar use only. This would appear to cover deep-fat fryers used in restaurants and shops, but not food processing plants. Yes, BUT, as I said, SC61E hasn't got round to making a special standard for commercial fryers. So the 'standards route' to complying with the LVD in Europe is to use 60335-2-13 and include in the safety assessment document the reasons why that standard is applicable to your particular product. That can, if necessary, be supplemented by an opinion from a Notified Body. CORRECTION: IEC 60335-2-37 applies A product that's safe in a home or restaurant doesn't automatically become unsafe if it's moved into a plant. This is still true. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: 230V Transition for EU?
This message has been converted via the evaluation version of Transend Migrator. Use beyond the trial period specified in your Software Evaluation Agreement is prohibited. Please contact Transend Corporation at (650) 324-5370 or sales.i...@transend.com to obtain a license suitable for use in a production environment. Thank you. br -br I read in !emc-pstc that John Barnes jrbar...@iglou.com wrote (in 3e3b4355.1...@iglou.com) about '230V Transition for EU?' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: Some of my references on international primary power say that the European Union was to transition to 230V power in two phases: * On 1 JAN 1995 the United Kindon and other countries using 240VAC were supposed to declare that their power was now 230VAC +10% -6%, while the countries using 220VAC would declare that their power was now 230VAC +6% -10%. * On 1 JAN 2003 all the countries in the European Union would declare that their power was now 230VAC +10% -10%. Did that actually happen? Can you point me to any official documents to that effect, maybe in the Official Journal of the European Communities (OJ)? As far as UK is concerned, I don't think you will find anything in the OJ. The declaration would have been done by either the Electricity Association on behalf of the suppliers, or perhaps the DTI. In any case, it was done. The 2003 date has been relaxed for some countries, which can't meet the requirements, until 2008. I have been informed by a very reliable source that the UK supply industry has no plans to take advantage of the extra 4% downward tolerance. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: BeCu problem
I read in !emc-pstc that Fred Townsend f...@poasana.com wrote (in 3e3af280.5e519...@poasana.com) about 'BeCu problem' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: John, tubes are like vacuum deposition chambers. I have difficulty believing that a fancy form of carbon would be of any use in molded structures, HV, or HVAC. These conditions are all found in radar tubes. Well, AIUI, it's actually made under high vacuum conditions, and diamond is very stable, of course. But I wasn't thinking of the applications of BeO in high-power tubes, about which I know very little, but in semiconductor packages and heat-transferring insulators. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests)
I read in !emc-pstc that Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk wrote (in p05200f03ba60957364e4@[192.168.1.28]) about 'EN60950 protective conductor test (was Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests)' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: At 12:22 + 31/1/03, John Woodgate wrote: There is a proposed amendment to IEC/EN 60950-1 requiring a test of the protective conductor network at *prospective short-circuit current* for the time it takes for the mains circuit protective device to operate. The details are controversial at present, because the test currents appear not to have taken into account the differences between prospective short-circuit currents in different wiring systems and supply voltages. Given that reservation, the lowest test current is 200 A. The amendment is aimed at protective conductors which are surface or internal traces of multi-layer printed boards. It is said that such traces have failed in the field under high-current fault conditions. -- Is the proposal to replace the existing test in the standard or to add an additional test only for certain special circumstances? It's additional. Is there any evidence that this test would actually result in a significant number of poorly designed products which currently pass the requirements of the standard being rejected? This is the claimed justification for the introduction. Field problems have occurred where printed board conductors have failed in high-current short-circuit conditions. The printed-board mounting versions of the IEC 60320 appliance connector encourage the use of board traces to carry the PEC; something that I would not be happy about, in principle. The existing test has its faults but it is easy to do with some very cheap apparatus. It strikes me that the cost of doing a test at 200+A is potentially very substantial. I don't think 200 A is too much of a problem, but testing at higher currents is proposed for some equipment. I don't want to be too explicit, because the figures in the draft are highly suspect (of applying to 120 V supplies!). If the result of an amendment to the standard is that significant numbers of self-certified products which have not been properly tested in this aspect of their design reach the market, then the net result will actually be a significant reduction in the safety of end users. I don't understand that. You mean that if people cheat, safety will be compromised? That's always the case. But in fact, the presence of the test may well concentrate attention on the need to make such traces substantial, whether they are tested or not. A cynic's view might also be that an amendment of this nature would suit the test labs and larger manufacturers fine, since they will be able to justify the cost of the apparatus required, whereas smaller manufacturers (and yes, small consultancy companies like mine) will not. Remember you don't necessarily need 200 A at 230 V. I can get 200 A at a bit over 1 V from a single turn on a big toroidal transformer. OK, I admit I'm putting two and two together and getting about seven but I believe one should get one's retaliation in first in these circumstances! Any amendment along the lines suggested should be prepared to sacrifice a fair degree of technical accuracy against the need for the test to be cheap, quick and easy to perform. It doesn't call for technical accuracy. You zap the equipment with the 200 A current for the operating time of the protective device and the PEC either remains intact or doesn't. Nowadays, standards writing should not just about getting accuracy and repeatability in testing but should also take into account the need to ensure that the requirements (and hence the tests) are actually possible to apply in the real world, and not just by people at specialist test houses. I quite agree, but as you indicate above, there isn't too much *active* support for that view. When I talk in the committees about low-cost testing, people tend to remain silent. In any case, at present it's difficult enough coping with the problems of the costly test equipment not measuring correctly or not being feasible (low-distortion, high- current mains supplies for IEC 61000-3-12, as a case in point). If you want a copy of the draft, to make comments to the BSI committee, please e-mail. Note that this offer can only be made to people in UK. Others should approach their national standards body. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301311957.laa25...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: Fluke has a good explanation of the deleterious effects of harmonics. See: http://www.fluke.com/ElectricPower/elec.asp Thank you. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: single fault conditions
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301311743.jaa24...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'single fault conditions' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: So, the failure of switching FETs could give rise to both fire and shock, but should not do so if the equipment construction is according to our various safety standards. That was my impression, too. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 and telecom ports
I read in !emc-pstc that Wagner, John P (John) johnwag...@avaya.com wrote (in 4203D61676D0AE468AA5CEA90A891C1302A01467@cof110avexu4.global. avaya.com) about 'EN55022:1998 and telecom ports' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: By the way, CISPR/F has nothing whatsoever to do with ITE. It is CISPR/I and formerly CISPR/G OOPS Yes, you are quite right. I didn't notice the typo. I meant to type G, but I is now the correct reference. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 + A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in cfefa50c9bcad21197470001fa7eba6b14121...@ntexchange05.micron.com) about 'EN55022:1998 + A1:2000' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: How can a ferrite clamp be called a CMAD Common Mode Absorption Device? It reduces EM radiation by reducing the current through the antenna, not by absorbing RF. It could, however, be called a CMAD Common Mode Attenuation Device. It is *meant* to absorb the energy in a lossy filter. However, it has been incredibly badly specified by CISPR/F, AIUI. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: BeCu problem
I read in !emc-pstc that don_borow...@selinc.com wrote (in ofc54f7ba7.cab7254d-on88256cbf.0051d...@selinc.com) about 'BeCu problem' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: I have seen stainless steel used as battery contacts. The contacts developed an oxide on them that made it difficult to get power from the battery. Seems to me that some plating could solve that problem however. OTOH, I have never found any problem with *magnetic* stainless steel. But nickel plate does cause film interface problems, particularly for 1.5 V or 3 V supplies. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 and telecom ports
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675BCE@flbocexu05) about 'EN55022:1998 and telecom ports' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: The standard also includes tests for coax and alludes to emissions caused by imperfect shielding. That seems to imply that a network of video products (e.g., cameras, monitors, muxes, VCRs, etc) with base band signals in coax would also be subject to testing. However, it is not clear that is what the authors had in mind. Comments? In Europe, EN 55103-1 would apply to such professional video systems. EN 55022 is NOT the only standard in the Universe. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: BeCu problem
I read in !emc-pstc that Fred Townsend f...@poasana.com wrote (in 3e3a35fb.6ecc...@poasana.com) about 'BeCu problem' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: BeO has seven times better thermal conductivity than AlO (alumina). There is no real substitute for BeO at high power levels. It is still used by the Military in high power radar applications such as tubes. Vapour Phase Deposition of diamond may replace BeO, with improved thermal properties, AIUI, and no toxicity problem. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 and telecom ports
I read in !emc-pstc that david_ster...@ademco.com wrote (in 2DF7C54A75B dd311b61700508b64231002c5b...@nyhqex1.ademconet.com) about 'EN55022:1998 and telecom ports' on Fri, 31 Jan 2003: Earthing STP shields at both ends is potential safety hazard, How does a safety hazard arise? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301292324.paa09...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Yes, delta-wye distribution transformer overheating does occur due to the circulation and dissipation of the triplen harmonics in the primary (delta) winding. Thank you for that and the rest of the information, which could prove to be very helpful indeed. I would like to use it in my continuing efforts to defuse the arguments between the former TC74 experts in TC108 and the SC77A/WG1 people. May I say that the information came from you (personally, of course, not from HP)? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301301638.iaa15...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: As Ken Javor described, in the USA, voltage distortion is largely a local (privately-owned wiring) premises problem due to excessive series resistance between the load and the point where the utility connects to the local premises wiring. Voltage distortion at the point where the utility (public network) connects to the local premises wiring is rare. Thank you. This is all good stuff. I wish it had been available some years ago. We've never succeeded in getting such clear and definite statements about the US experience previously. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 + A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote (in oleokfnbajjejfkplbbmoeelchaa.g.grem...@cetest.nl) about 'EN55022:1998 + A1:2000' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: The official name is CMAD Common Mode Absorption Device. (before John makes one himself ;)) You mean me? And do you mean before I make a name for the device or before I make a DIY device itself? I don't plan to do that at present, but you never know. The discussion in the UK committee leads me to think that the 'MAD' part is apt. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: single fault conditions
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'single fault conditions' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Yes sir, this is another thing I've wondered about; i.e., simulating the big bus cap (short) SFC by applying a mechanical short accross the terminals. Does not really demonstrate what would occur if the cap itself fails. A blown electrolytic can be very messy. I am beginning to wonder about some of the testing that I perform that the agencies think is really great stuff... This subject should be studied by the TC108 team preparing the standard that will replace IEC 60950 and IEC 60065. However, at this time, there seems to be no specialist team assigned to studying the subject of realistic fault simulation. There is a meeting of the team next month. Maybe this subject should be discussed. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Translations: Chinese to English
I read in !emc-pstc that Collins, Jeffrey jcoll...@ciena.com wrote (in 1d4e6e0235bdf84bb58bace5086d9c518...@wntcsdexg03.oni.com) about 'Translations: Chinese to English' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Can you recommend a company or individual who is competent ( and reasonable $$$ ) in translating technical documents from Mandarin Chinese into English. I'm also seeking someone capable of translating technical documents from English to Portuguese or Mandarin Chinese to Portuguese. Preferably looking for a west coast entity but it is not required. I suggest you post your enquiry on the newsgroup: sci.lang.translation.marketplace -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote (in 0h9j008afer...@mtaout03.icomcast.net) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: Yes I am in the US so clearly I must have been mistaken. Seriously, when that business started in 1989 there were relatively few PCs in use there. PC cubes were scattered throughout the building that people could use on an as-needed basis. By 1995, every engineer's cube had a PC running all day long. Yes, a similar thing happened in Europe. It was this *rapid* expansion of PC deployment that frightened the European electricity suppliers. They coped earlier with the far more gradual development of the TV park, first persuading the TV manufacturers to give up half-wave rectifiers and subsequently to control the harmonic emissions of very large sets. They extrapolated the effects of the rapid expansion of PCs (and simultaneous use of more than one TV per household) and deduced that widespread system failures would occur in a few (5?) years (counting from about 1989) if the emissions remained controlled only by the Class A limits of IEC/EN60555-2. Hence the invention of 'Class D' and all the ensuing grief. It has now been shown pretty convincingly that the extrapolations were very pessimistic. The latest European supply industry predictions, based on voltage distortion growth levels of the past decade of 0.1% absolute per year (by 'absolute', I mean a growth from, say, 4% to 4.1% at a a particular site, not from 4% to 100.1% of 4%!), is that unacceptable levels of supply disturbance will occur in 10 years time. However, there are several reasons why that 0.1% growth rate will not be maintained over that time period, not least the effect of IEC/EN 61000-3-2 itself, which will not be reliably measurable, in Europe, until 2005 at the earliest. It would have been interesting, in retrospect, to have taken line voltage oscillographs at representative locations as the PC density increased. Yes, it would have. I have about a 20 year gap in observations of the mains waveform here in UK, from about 1971 to 1991, when I heard about Class D and started to study the subject closely. During that time, the flat tops developed. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 + A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in cfefa50c9bcad21197470001fa7eba6b14121...@ntexchange05.micron.com) about 'EN55022:1998 + A1:2000' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: And I have used an MFJ-259B (only $260) to measure ferrites from 1.7 to 170 MHz. What is an MFJ-259B and where can I buy one? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 and telecom ports
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675BB4@flbocexu05) about 'EN55022:1998 and telecom ports' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: EN55022:1998 defines telecommunication ports as Ports which are intended to be connected to telecommunications networks (e.g. public switched telecommunication networks, integrated services digital networks), local area networks (e.g. Ethernet, token ring) and similar networks. Since similar networks are included, it would seem that dissimilar networks are excluded. What distinguishes a similar network to a dissimilar network? What are some examples of dissimilar networks that are not included? Yes, well, CISPR/F (responsible for the underlying CISPR 22 standard) should have a *functioning* editing committee with enough experience and insight to weed out such phrases. List of examples are always troublesome in one way or another, and in any case MUST not be 'unterminated', by ending in 'etc.' or 'and similar', etc. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplekehbedaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: John - That impedance value is suprisingly high, It applies to 230 V 50 Hz systems only. SC77A/WG2 has been given a too limited amount of data on 120 V 60 Hz systems to deduce a reference value, but it seems to be rather less than half the 230 V value, because permitted voltage tolerances in 120 V systems tend to be +/-5%, less than in Europe (6 to 10%). but tends to support the contention that the fault current at an outlet will be much lower than was suggested (65kA, which, to me, appeared more like a peak surge current than a fault current). Yes, 65 kA is way too high. For those interested, below are what the IEC Web Store has to say about IEC 60725. Title: Considerations on reference impedances for use in determining the disturbance characteristics of household appliances and similar electrical equipment Abstract: Records the information that was available and the factors that were taken into account in arriving at the reference impedance of 0.4+ j 0.25 ohm which has been incorporated in IEC 60555. Has the status of a technical report. A revision is under way. Postpone your buying decision.(;-) It doesn't alter the reference impedance but adds information of calculating the impedances of (particularly) higher-current services, applicable to any system voltage and permitted voltage variation. 0.5 Ohm seems large for a flexible cord. 0.5 ohms is 0.2 ohm total for the two conductors of the flexible plus 0.3 ohm total for the two conductors of the feed to the wall socket. All in a 230 V system. It's just an example. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: single fault conditions
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'single fault conditions' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: The environment being considered is a switching power supply. The technique that safety agencies use to simulate a SFC on a power FET does not seem, IMHO, to simulate the actual failure mode of the device. To wit: when the mosfet fails short, it blows itself open; so the amount of current sucked out of mains, e.g., the PFC FET, would probably open the component after a few input cycles. But if I apply a direct mechanical short (source to drain), current is being forced to flow until the fuse blows, or until some series trace or component opens. Agreed. The Bad: some FETs fail very violently, and can actually be a fire hazard and/or shock hazard in open-frame switchers; Really? There doesn't seem to be enough combustible material to cause a fire hazard, and an open-frame switcher always has to be in some sort of outer enclosure, doesn't it? So it's not clear how a shock hazard could arise. but if the FET itself does not provide the short circuit, we will never know Indeed: the external short-circuit doesn't simulate the device failure. The Good: providing a continuous (mechanical) short will reveal if there are other components in the current path that could be cause the unit to fail in an unsafe mode. Agreed. Although, according to QA records, these components have never failed, so it can be both demonstrated by design equations and empirical evidence that the SFC test does necessarily demonstrate anything relevant... The Ugly: Safety testing results in design corrections that do not increase product safety. So would it be legitimate to over-drive the gate, forcing short circuit current to flow through the FET, but not to apply a mechanical short across the component? Experiences comments are appreciated. Doesn't the gate-to-drain short simulate this reasonably well? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: single fault conditions
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'single fault conditions' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: I am also concerned that there are products on the market, tested in good faith, that would be unsafe for a more probable SFC, that would not be tested for, in accordance with existing standards. If you find the existing standards inadequate, bring your proposals for new tests to your national standards committee for onward transmission to IEC. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: UK DTI applying generic standard to test hair dryer for conformity
I read in !emc-pstc that Paul Chan ncc...@tuvps.com.hk wrote (in 006901c2c801$82c70a00$27086...@tuvglobal.com) about 'UK DTI applying generic standard to test hair dryer for conformity' on Thu, 30 Jan 2003: I have read a news regarding on 3 Sept 02, UK Department of Trade Industry (DTI) applied EMC Generic standard EN50081-1 Radiated Emission to test for compliance on a AC Hair dryer, which claimed to interfere TV reception. The hair dryer failed the test and the importer was prosecuted by violation of EMC Directive. You will find more information on this case at: http://www.compliance-club.org if you follow links. The press reports were not entirely accurate. There were safety issues **as well as a lack of co-operation by the manufacturer**. Should the product be covered by EN55014-1 already? Please comment. Yes, what has been shown is that the standard is inadequate, since it does not control emissions in the UHF TV bands. Steps are being taken to deal with this. However, anyone who markets a hair-dryer that clearly interferes with TV is not exactly sensible, do you think? It isn't as if you need a test- house to find that problem! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote (in 0h9h00l4ovp...@mtaout02.icomcast.net) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: I noticed this several years ago at the office building I worked in at the time. My cube moved from one end of the building to another, and my computer wouldn't always start - it took several tries. I brought in a scope, and saw that the ac voltage waveform was flattened. It was more flattened at my new cube than at my old one. Clearly this is related to power supplies recharging filter caps at the peak of the ac waveform, and the relative distance from the building main breaker at the two different cubes. This is a power/crest factor issue, not directly a harmonic issue, although drawing current only near the peak of the waveform will definitely generate harmonics. Aren't you in the USA? If so, you must have imagined the peak- flattening. I am assured by the US experts on SC77A/WG1 that this phenomenon is unknown in USA, and the only effect of IEC/EN 61000-3-2 is that it increases the prices of PCs dramatically and keeps US products out of Europe. To which my answer is 'McEnroe!' (YCNBS!) At least, they argued that way for about 10 years. The present US chums are far more sensible. Even so, 'peak flattening' rarely figures in their vocabulary. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplegegaedaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'Circuit Breaker Tripping Dring Fault Tests' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: In a typical household operating at 120V, it's unlikely that a fault current available to Pluggable Equipment Type A will be much above 5kA, even if the outlet supplying the equipment is within 5 ft. of the service entrance. In a typical household operating at 240V, the available fault current will be somewhat higher (approximately doubled +). H'mm. IEC 60725 gives a 'reference impedance' (a sort of weighted average, omitting extreme values) for a 230 V 50 Hz 100 A service-rating household supply as 0.47 ohms at the service entry. Allowing another 0.5 ohms for the mains wiring and the flexible mains lead, we get 230 V and 0.97 ohms at the appliance, giving a prospective short-circuit current of about 240 A. The appliance fuse should be able to interrupt that without exploding. UK plug-top fuses are tested to break 6000 A safely, though. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 + A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com wrote (in 83d652574e7af740873674f9fc12dbaaf7e...@utexh1w2.gnnettest.com) about 'EN55022:1998 + A1:2000' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: If the standard is assuming a 50 Ohm system, doesn't this breakdown to a simple calculation? Quite possibly, but it *isn't* a 50 ohm system. The device should absorb the energy passing down the cable, not reflect it, so it should match the impedance of the cable/ground propagator well. This propagator has traditionally been assumed to have a characteristic impedance of 150 ohms. In an earlier post, I said that the transfer attenuation is 'irrelevant', and it escaped before I could correct it. It wouldn't be irrelevant if it were 3 dB, say, because that would mean that only half the energy was absorbed. So, it would be fairer to say that the attenuation is 'of secondary importance' compared with the input impedance, because if the impedance is far out, the energy never gets into the device, so can't be absorbed. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Declaration of Conformity
I read in !emc-pstc that Scott Douglas dougl...@naradnetworks.com wrote (in 5.0.2.1.2.20030129141347.00a63...@pop.business.earthlink.net ) about 'Declaration of Conformity' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Please forgive my mental lapse here. I know this subject has come up before. This is a question of what to do with the Declaration of Conformity for the EU. So please tell me what you do. Do you put a CE mark on the outside of the box? It's a good idea to do so; it keeps the Customs fingers out of the box. Is this in lieu of the D of C? Absolutely not. Do you put the D of C on the outside of the box? Not normally. I see no reason to do so. Do you put the D of C inside the box on separate paper? If you want to, or print it in the instruction book. Most safety standards *require* an instruction book to be provided. Do you put the D of C in (on) a CD ROM and no paper in the box? It's a few lines of text. Why would you put it on a CD-ROM? Do you include the D of C with Customs papers only? It is highly advisable to include it with shipping documents, but 'only' is too definite. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: RTTE directive.
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets .com wrote (in 4e9a9436c008314eaa32033b23e96fd90b0...@thorondor.wwp.co m) about 'RTTE directive.' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Anybody have a link to peruse and purchase this, and a brief synopsis. Replied to a previous e-mail question, by e-mail. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN55022:1998 + A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote (in mpeeiccjhhndekobpnnbmeegckaa.g.grem...@cetest.nl) about 'EN55022:1998 + A1:2000' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Proposals are on their way to specify both transfer attenuation (first) and input CM impedance of those clamps (later) The radiation properties of the exposed wire will vary widely depending on the CM load impedance. The attenuation characteristic is to isolate auxilary wire (and signal) from the test setup. When we discussed this in the UK committee, it was pointed out that this clamp is NOT a filter and its transfer attenuation is irrelevant. It is *intended* to absorb energy propagating down the cable, so it is the *input impedance* that matters. AIUI, even though that is so, because CISPR/I (G?) specified a transfer attenuation, CISPR 16-1 will continue to specify a value for this irrelevant property! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301291623.iaa07...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Wed, 29 Jan 2003: Hi John: In the USA, this has largely been fixed by a change in the USA National Electrical Code. There must be quite a number of installations that are not yet upgraded. Where a problem existed, it was fixed by pulling another neutral. Yes, we do that, too. Are there any other problems appearing in the field which can be reliably determined as due to concentrations of non-linear loads of less than 3 kVA or so? Probably not. The only other problem that I know of is distribution transformer overheating. But, I believe such transformers are very much larger than 3 kVA, so 3 kVA of non-linear loads would have very little effect. I mean *concentrations* of loads, individually below 3 kVA or so. Distribution transformer overheating is the sort of effect that I am interested in. Are these MV/LV transformers, 'pole-pig' types or larger. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301281747.jaa29...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Tue, 28 Jan 2003: Hi John: No, this is not much of an issue for the U.S. (unless your facility is actually affecting the utility); ... or frying the neutral conductors with third-harmonic current. In the USA, this has largely been fixed by a change in the USA National Electrical Code. There must be quite a number of installations that are not yet upgraded. When the load is largely electronic (off-line rectifiers) the Code now requires a larger neutral conductor in three- phase distributions. Yes, we do that in UK as well, for new installations. In some cases, the neutral, which is the same size as the phase conductors, is supplemented by another conductor, because the neutral current can, in an extreme case, exceed the phase current. Many constructions, while supplied from a three-phase source, are wired as single-phase. So, in this case, the neutral only carries the current of one phase, and we don't fry the neutral. That is a good solution. Are there any other problems appearing in the field which can be reliably determined as due to concentrations of non-linear loads of less than 3 kVA or so? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Applicabilty of Flicker Standard
I read in !emc-pstc that don_borow...@selinc.com wrote (in ofae2c2f5d.695d080d-on88256cbc.00568...@selinc.com) about 'Applicabilty of Flicker Standard' on Tue, 28 Jan 2003: We are trying to figure out the applicability of 61000-3-3 Flicker Standard to the power supply in our product. We have a device that may be hard wired into the public low voltage (230 V) mains under certain circumstances, and has no mains switch. Given this, it appears that the maximum relative voltage change dmax shall not exceed 4% (61000-3-3, Section 5, Limits, condition a.) since it is energized immediately on restoration of supply after a power supply interruption. Question 1: Does the 4% dmax include the inrush upon restoration of supply, or does it apply only to voltage changes caused by changes in current demand during operation (after inrush)? It includes the inrush current. The standard is NOT only about flicker; this impression is due to the less-than-generalized title. It is about all sorts of **voltage changes** impressed on to the supply by loads. See the Amendment for better information on inrush current. To make things even messier, the device in question is a control for a power distribution recloser (over 1 kV). During a fault, it might demand enough current to exceed 4% dmax when operating the recloser. The public low voltage powering the control would almost certainly be derived from the high voltage system being switched by the recloser. Question 2: Do we need to meet the 61000-3-3 limits during recloser operation (most likely fault conditions)? Probably not if it is installed within a utility's site. AIUI, any low- voltage supply there is not a 'public' supply. If it can be installed in a user's premises, then the low-voltage supply might not be derived from the MV supply being switched (in a big hospital, for example, which has two separate HV or MV supplies for reliability). In that case, the standard applies. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN61000-4-3:2002
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675B9C@flbocexu05) about 'EN61000-4-3:2002' on Tue, 28 Jan 2003: Can anyone verify that EN61000-4-3:2000 does not contain common modifications to the IEC document - i.e., they are identical? I can't find an issue dated '2000'. The 2002 edition contains no Common Modifications. The standard which it supersedes on 2005-04-01 is EN 61000-4-3:1996 + A1:1998 + A2:2001. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: 'DOW' of standards
I read in !emc-pstc that iun...@servomex.com wrote (in OF3F94F3F0.6C74C b86-on80256cbc.004d2...@servomex.co.uk) about ''DOW' of standards' on Tue, 28 Jan 2003: The OJ for the LVD (page C317/73) gives 1.1.2004 as being the date beyond which IEC 61010-1:1990/A2:1995 can no longer be used to presume conformance with the requirements of this Directive. After this date, can equipment previously assessed to this standard still be marketed without reassessment to the new standard (IEC 61010-1:2001)? If so, until when? No, that's what 'dow' means. After that date, it's the new standard or nothing. You might find it helpful to search for my post on 'docopocoss' (Date Of Cessation Of Presumption Of Conformity Of the Superseded Standard). I'd put it on my web site if I could remember the URL. (;-) Between 1.4.2001 (the 'dow' of IEC 61010-1:1990+A1:1992 (Modified)) and 1.1.2004 (the dow of IEC 61010-1:1990/A2:1995), can either IEC 61010-1:1990/A2:1995 or IEC 61010-1:2001 be used to presume conformance with the requirements of LVD? Yes. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Mon, 27 Jan 2003: No, this is not much of an issue for the U.S. (unless your facility is actually affecting the utility); ... or frying the neutral conductors with third-harmonic current. but I have read that the EC is currently engaged is some interesting emission requirements discussions (Mr. Woodgate should probably jump in...). There is nothing going on in Europe with regard to mains harmonic current emissions. IEC/EN 61000-3-2 is in effect, as it has been for a while now. There is new work going on in IEC, but don't hold your breath. The fully revised IEC 61000-3-2 is expected to be published in 2006, and if so, might become mandatory, as EN 61000-3-2, in 2010. No-one expects its technical provisions to be startlingly different from those of the current standard with the Millennium Amendment. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Unity Power Factor
I read in !emc-pstc that don_macart...@selinc.com wrote (in OF26C3658E. a50db9b6-on88256cbb.00613...@selinc.com) about 'Unity Power Factor' on Mon, 27 Jan 2003: Why are so many U.S. manufacturers using Unity Power Factor correctors in low wattage power supplies? Are there any U.S. requirements for Harmonics or they just trying to meet CE mark requirements (devices rated 75W)? Well, there's IEEE519. But there's also 'hot neutrals', due to 3rd (9th, 15th...) harmonic currents adding in-phase in the neutral, which occurs in USA whereas the other European problems with harmonics don't occur so much, because the distribution system is different. Countries outside Europe are gradually adopting IEC 61000-3-2 under emission regulations. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
High-currrent resistors and inductors - preferably variable
One of my IEC colleagues, from a very large company, sent this enquiry: I am interested in locating suppliers that can provide variable impedance elements (Ztest Zref) needed to test to EN 61000-3-11. The range of Ztest, at 50 Hz, may have to be Ztest = (0.10 - 0.25) + j(0.10 - 0.25) with 75 A per phase. I have located one supplier in the US, with a possible additional one that may be acceptable. I would like to have a European source if possible. Any information that you can provided in this regard will be greatly appreciated. Either send me e-mail or put a message here. My e-mail is jmw(AT)jmwa.demon.co.[DELETE.]uk -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements
I read in !emc-pstc that Garry Hojan gho...@regulatory-compliance.com wrote (in 000901c2c55a$d444c380$6401a8c0@hppav) about 'DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements' on Sun, 26 Jan 2003: By the way Paul, above is how we try to make participants in the forum feel welcome :) I didn't mean it to come over in that way, but I was mystified by the references to vintage stuff like 'DEMKO approval' and '220 V'. You may know, if you lurk here regularly, that I always try to be helpful. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements
I read in !emc-pstc that Denomme, Paul S. paul.deno...@viasystems.com wrote (in 21D70CCF72025B4E8013D5FF8E7B598C8D3791@amrmmsg3) about 'DEMKO high voltage spacing requirements' on Fri, 24 Jan 2003: I am in the process of designing a board that needs to receive DEMKO approval. There is no such thing as 'DEMKO approval' any more. If you want to export to Denmark, the product must meet the requirements established under the European Low Voltage Directive, just as for any EU country. This board will have 220VAC directly connected to it through a connector. Can anyone tell me what the spacing requirements would be for this board? The board will be conformally coated to minimize the spacing requirements. Also, anyone have experience regarding issues that may come up in regards to the connector? You need to buy the standard that applies to your product. There are may, many issues apart from the mains circuit clearances. Also, the European mains voltage is 230 V now, not 220 V. Where have you been for the last 10 years? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Acoustic noise calculations for multiple shelves
I read in !emc-pstc that Neil Helsby nei...@solid-state-logic.com wrote (in 20030122.8281...@mis.configured.host) about 'Acoustic noise calculations for multiple shelves' on Wed, 22 Jan 2003: The simple answer is that the result will be logarithmic – double the noise and you add 6 dB. The noises are uncorrelated (largely), so you add 3 dB, not 6. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplemebiedaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Tue, 21 Jan 2003: That's what I meant by 'delegated' Except that there is no delegation. Rather, the case is one of supersession: municipal to county to state to federal, in that order. Generally, the higher level of government trumps the lower. However, a number of complaints and court cases have been brought by the lower governmental bodies against higher levels of government for treading on their jurisdiction where they have questionable legal basis to. OK, this is a semantic issue. IMHO, 'delegation' is the appropriate word if there is a written law that prescribes how authority is allocated. If, OTOH, it is a situation like English 'common law', which is not necessarily written as a statute but stems from tradition and case law, then 'supersession' may be the better word. I *think* that the autonomy of the US states is of that nature, the federal Constitution simply affirming what was already established. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN 55022:1998 +Amendment A1:2000
I read in !emc-pstc that John Barnes jrbar...@iglou.com wrote (in 3e2d8c13.7...@iglou.com) about 'EN 55022:1998 +Amendment A1:2000' on Tue, 21 Jan 2003: But if we are testing a product that uses a wall wart direct plug-in power supply, do we need to bother with the ferrite clamps/tubes? My interpretation is that we don't, because the AC/DC cord from the wall wart is not a mains cable, nor a connection to auxiliary equipment located outside the test area. How do the rest of you interpret this requirement? Put the clamp on the power cable that feeds whatever the wall-wart is plugged into. If you do not, the product may fail the test. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301210304.taa03...@hpsdlxs0.sdd.hp.com) about 'jurisdiction, overlap, and delegation in USA rules.' on Mon, 20 Jan 2003: Hi John: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. I'm not at all sure what you mean by the practical requirements are not centralized I mean that they are not uniform over the whole country, AIUI. Some AHJs stick closely to the NEC, some apply their own 'improvements', or so I have read here. Furthermore, in the USA, requirements are NOT delegated down though the local government chain Furthermore, there are NO cases where jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. Depending on the State, building codes are set and enforced by either the State, the County, or the City. These are the jurisdictions. That's what I meant by 'delegated' There is no jurisdictional overlap or lack of clear segregation (at least insofar as building codes are concerned). I'm sure I read here about different attitudes to DIY modifications at City, County and State levels, each level claiming authority - no response like 'We don't have jurisdiction; you have to ask City about that'. If that is an urban legend, I have been misled, but no-one challenged it at the time. [snip] -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilmebgckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in cfefa50c9bcad21197470001fa7eba6b14121...@ntexchange05.micron.com) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: For example, UL 60950 the same as EN 60950. Are you sure? I agree that much of the content is the same, but I think there are still some differences. It's also necessary to be specific about which editions are compared. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Video Cameras for EMC Test Monitoring
I read in !emc-pstc that Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com wrote (in b78135310217d511907c0090273f5190d0b...@curly.ds.cubic.com) about 'Video Cameras for EMC Test Monitoring' on Wed, 15 Jan 2003: I wish there was some remote way to suppress the IR illuminators. Can't you just put duct tape over them, if you are not expecting to use them? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN 61000-4-4 Amd 2
I read in !emc-pstc that Sam Wismer swis...@acstestlab.com wrote (in 001f01c2bcb1$04fce0f0$0b01000a@sam) about 'EN 61000-4-4 Amd 2' on Wed, 15 Jan 2003: Normally with a new standard, all equipment still in production on or after the date an existing standard is withdrawn, for which the equipment was tested, and a revised one goes into force, the equipment must be shown to comply with the new standard. Does this also apply to equipment that was evaluated with a burst generator that does not meet the new verification requirements of Amd 2 of the revised -4-4 standard? What does the Generic or Product-family standard that calls up the Basic standard say? If it doesn't call up Amendment A2, you don't need to re- test, unless it has an *undated* reference to EN 61000-4-4. In any case, the unamended (by Amdt A2) standard doesn't become inadmissible until 2004-07-01. You amy also take into account the consequences of the generator not conforming to Amendment 2. If those consequences can be shown to be insignificant, and you keep a record of that assessment, you don't need to re-test. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Draft RoH Directive
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675B13@flbocexu05) about 'Draft RoH Directive' on Tue, 14 Jan 2003: Thus, it appears that, unless the draft Directive is revised or amended, the maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances are zero parts per million. Am I reading this correctly? I really don't think so. Why don't you suggest zero parts per trillion? Octillion? 'No limit' means *NO* limit, not *zero* limit. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675B15@flbocexu05) about 'Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants' on Tue, 14 Jan 2003: Does anyone know of web sites or other sources that describe feasible alternatives to bominated fire retardants in plastics? Not bominated but abominated. By no means all brominated flame-retardants are controlled. The ones that are still allowed tend to be more costly. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets .com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d401de2...@windlord.wwp.C OM) about 'Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?' on Sun, 12 Jan 2003: Its during the immunity portion that is under question, and throwing a fiber cable into a trench to inject noise isn't purposeful. I'm sure you know what you mean, but I don't. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: IEC vs. EN
I read in !emc-pstc that Sam Wismer swis...@acstestlab.com wrote (in 000501c2b98b$166cb190$0b01000a@sam) about 'IEC vs. EN' on Sat, 11 Jan 2003: Thanks for the clarification. Is there any documentation to that affect, or is it common practice to apply the EN transition period to the IEC basic standard that may be called for in the applied generic or ps standard? Look at the introductory text of Annex ZA of the ENs. As I said, it's not very clear, but that is what we have. The transition period of any EN comes from the Commission, formally recorded in the Official Journal, although the dow in the Foreword of the EN is normally consistent with it. It's not just 'common practice' to apply it, it's the official procedure. Also, why do some Generic or PS standards call for the IEC version instead of the EN version, especially if called for from an EN version? Because CENELEC simply clones the IEC text without change (unless there are Common Modifications or CENELEC-only amendments), and implements the changes to the normative references by means of Annex ZA. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Juhasz, John (IndSys, GE Interlogix) john.juh...@ge.com wrote (in 4606624A2A8ABE41AFBA5F8306F2ECB203611C@F TWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com) about 'Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?' on Fri, 10 Jan 2003: Is there anyone subscribed to this forum who is on the EN 55022 committee who could possibly shed light on this? Emission testing according to CISPR 22 requires the product to be configured in an attempt to maximise emissions. This means that all or most cables are connected, since most emission normally comes from cables. If some of these cables are fibre-optic, so be it. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in cfefa50c9bcad21197470001fa7eba6b14121...@ntexchange05.micron.com) about 'Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?' on Fri, 10 Jan 2003: Chris, some excellent points! My take on this is that a fiber optical cable has a cutoff frequency that is way above the RF frequencies we are concerned with. It just won't act as a waveguide for what we consider RF wavelengths. However, I think the optical cable certainly does leak a bit at light wavelengths. That's a surprise; what evidence do you have? It seems like one could perform light emissions and susceptibility testing. Now most of our light wave communications use cables. Sort of like if all RF communications was done in copper. With nothing intentionally radiated, and with the cables operating as very poor antennas, we might have no need for emission and susceptibility testing. On the other hand, the FCC does not regulate radiated optical communications. Maybe it's time to do so. With laser range finders, optical radar, IR remote control, and other primitive devices we are accumulating pollution of this part of the EM spectrum. Reminds me of spark transmitters spewing RF over a wide frequency range. Street lights are the spark transmitters of the visible spectrum. Shouldn't an optical cable with a metal sheath be treated just like any other cable? Hook it up during EMC testing? Yes, ALL cables, of whatever sort, are to be connected during testing. And as you point out, where is the transition from RF to light? RF generation methods (such as gyrotrons, seem to peter out at wavelengths of 1000 microns while visible light begins at 0.7 microns. There seems to be a huge no man's land in the EM spectrum. Look up 'far infra-red'. This part of the spectrum is flooded with thermal radiation from objects at normal temperatures. But sources and detectors do exist. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com wrote (in 83d652574e7af740873674f9fc12dbaaf7e...@utexh1w2.gnnettest.com) about 'Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?' on Fri, 10 Jan 2003: So where is the crossover point? Does it have to do with skin depth? Maybe the photoelectric effect? Why don't we talk about photons at 1Ghz? Pragmatically, because there is no need to. Radio astronomers probably find that their parsecage may vary. (;-) Is it just because we don't have a material with the correct band gap to produce a 1Ghz photon? I don't know whether anything will work in a MASER at 1 GHz, but there is at 1.44 GHz, AIUI. Whether there could be an LED analogue working at much lower frequencies seems a good question. Electron energy transitions with low enough energies can occur between the outer shells of heavy atoms, but whether electron/hole recombinations can occur with such low energies is another matter.. On the other hand, can free electrons be conducted at light frequencies; or isn't there a material with enough of a skin depth at such frequencies? The conduction need not necessarily be in a solid. Anybody want to take a stab at enlightening(no pun intended) Oh, please intend it! us all on this one? Try sci.physics -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: IEC vs. EN
I read in !emc-pstc that Sam Wismer swis...@acstestlab.com wrote (in 001001c2b8c4$7df00d20$0b01000a@sam) about 'IEC vs. EN' on Fri, 10 Jan 2003: Case in point: EN 61000-4-4 Amd. 2 DoW for the superseded standard is 7/04 however EN55024 calls out IEC 61000-4-4. No, it only appears to. Because it's a clone of CISPR 24, its Normative References clause refers to IEC standards. But Annex ZA (not very clearly) replaces those references by the corresponding EN. Is IEC 61000-4-4 amd. 2 in force now and should it be used now when EN55024 is the applied standard? No. The EN transition period applies. Industry cannot work with standards that come into effect instantaneously and without prior notice. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: European 3 Phase
I read in !emc-pstc that ggars...@us.tuv.com wrote (in OFE36B9C6E.F1FBF 989-on86256caa.0078d...@us.tuv.com) about 'European 3 Phase' on Fri, 10 Jan 2003: It may or may not be that the BSI document is better, I do not have a copy. The DoC (Dept of Commerce, in this case) document is free. In that case, it is infinitely better than the BSI document, which is not free. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Hans Mellberg emcconsult...@yahoo.com wrote (in 20030110005915.73808.qm...@web40903.mail.yahoo.com) about 'Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?' on Thu, 9 Jan 2003: As a matter of fact the local SCV EMC society paper next week is about EM radiation from fiber optics. No, not from the glass or plastic itself!, but from the metalized reflector coating and also from the proximity of the Tx diode next to the connector. Actually measurable radiation! But these emissions are measured as part of the emissions from the enclosure. I can't see any need to introduce any NEW tests involving the fibre-optic cables. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EU Directives for Locomotive Switching and Communications Systems
I read in !emc-pstc that Dave Clement david.clem...@verizon.net wrote (in abecjpnllkeblkflnbideegjcfaa.david.clem...@verizon.net) about 'EU Directives for Locomotive Switching and Communications Systems' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: I would thin the LVD and EMC directives would apply or is there a directive specific to this type of equipment. The railways have their own standards and Directives. There is an ongoing problem of compatibility between these and the RTTED and EMCD. Look for standards issued by CENELEC TC9X and IEC TC9. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Hans Mellberg emcconsult...@yahoo.com wrote (in 20030106214810.5293.qm...@web40904.mail.yahoo.com) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: Aren't we already using symbols not in 417 such as the Hazard Warning (exclamation in a triangle) which is an international(except US) road hazard sign? It's in ISO 7000 - no. 0434, and it DOESN'T mean 'read the instructions' as it is used in some editions of IEC 60950. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Sun Beds
I read in !emc-pstc that David Sproul david.spr...@alexanderlynn.co.uk wrote (in lnepkcgaigehccdompbbmejecfaa.david.spr...@alexanderlynn.co.uk ) about 'Sun Beds' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: Could someone please advise me on the appropriate EMC and Safety Standards to apply to domestic sun-beds for sale in Europe and the US. Have you looked at the BSI web site? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DOCOPOCOSS?
I read in !emc-pstc that Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwards.boc.com wrote (in E1BA0362B28ED211A1E80008C71EA3060181920D@EXC_EAS01) about 'DOCOPOCOSS?' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: In the link supplied below by Peter my concern is with EN61010-1. Will EN61010-1:1993 replace EN61010-1:1990 on 1/4/04? I would not think so; that's an 11 year transition period, which is highly improbable. Does the table show that after 1/4/04 the 2001 version must be used? That would be a normal 3-year transition period. May both the 1993 and 2001 versions be used concurrently after 1/4/04? Most unlikely. By the way, are the dates quoted in the OJ dd/mm/yy or mm/dd/yy? They *should* be (yy)yy-mm-dd, but it's very unlikely indeed that they are mm-dd-yy, unless someone has made a BIG mistake. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EUROPEAN VOLTAGE HARMONISATION
I read in !emc-pstc that Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwards.boc.com wrote (in E1BA0362B28ED211A1E80008C71EA3060181920E@EXC_EAS01) about 'EUROPEAN VOLTAGE HARMONISATION' on Mon, 6 Jan 2003: Does anybody know what the planned European Voltage Harmonisation levels are (I think there is a change in tolerance) and when they will be introduced? 230 V +/- 10%. Some former '220 V' countries can't meet those limits yet and for them, only, conformity is extended to 2008. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Ronald R. Wellman rwell...@wellman.com wrote (in 5.1.0.14.2.20030105073019.009f5...@pop.registeredsite.com) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sun, 5 Jan 2003: Remember that we are trying to establish the origin of this for indoor use symbol and whether it is really necessary to use it to meet some regulatory or third party requirement. Actual observance and understanding of the symbol is another issue, regardless if it is alphanumeric or iconic. My reference to necessity is only to point out that there is something currently in place that is being used internationally in place of this symbol. I think maybe we have been snipping too much. MY reference is to the reason the symbol was proposed for inclusion in IEC 60417 - that it is less incomprehensible to the general public than an IP number. Maybe the proposal came from a country that doesn't use the Latin alphabet, whose citizens would have even more trouble understanding 'IP'? It does seem to be so that it is not called up in any IEC safety standard, BUT that would be because it ISN'T (yet?) in IEC 60417. IEC SC3C can take an awful long time to accept a symbol and standardize it. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN 60601-1-2/ EN 55022: 1998
I read in !emc-pstc that John Barnes jrbar...@iglou.com wrote (in 3e184ad6.7...@iglou.com) about 'EN 60601-1-2/ EN 55022: 1998' on Sun, 5 Jan 2003: The date of cessation of presumption on conformity of the superseded standard (DOPOCOSS) is 1 AUG 2003. You left out one of the molecules of carbon monoxide: it's DOCOPOCOSS. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 002701c2b402$6a322280$218066d1@default) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003: John, I didn't word that part very well. I don't know when the indoor use only SYMBOL came into use; that could be recently. I should have said the only justification I could find for using it, to satisfy a requirement in a standard, was eliminated in CEE transformer standards about 40 years ago. OK, That's clear now. My understanding of the proposal to include the 'house' symbol in IEC 60417 is that, even if the meaning of the symbol is not wholly self-evident, it is more likely to be understood than the current official designations like 'IP31' or 'IP40'. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Ronald R. Wellman rwell...@wellman.com wrote (in 5.1.0.14.2.20030104081733.009f2...@pop.registeredsite.com) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003: Many safety standards are now making reference to IP numbers, so this for indoor use marking is unnecessary by present day standards. But will your elderly aunt understand what 'IP30' means? (Don't tell me, she's a Supreme Court judge, of course.) (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com wrote (in 002c01c2b3b9$77154700$8e8066d1@default) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Sat, 4 Jan 2003: My guess is that the symbol came into use (due to the translation requirement) and is still alive today even though the requirement for it disappeared about 40 years ago - at least in the transformer standards I have used. I think the 'house' symbol is a NEW thing, not an old one from 40 years ago. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN 55103 declaration
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'EN 55103 declaration' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003: What is the rationale given for some people not accepting an EN standard issued by BSI? My employer typically buys EN stds from BSI. Is there something different about BSI-printed standards? No, they are identical (apart from the National Foreword and things like that) but *some people may not know that*, especially where the EN is published in December (2000 + n) but the BS EN carries the date (2000 + n + 1). -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301031730.jaa10...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003: Since one of our members could not decipher the symbol, I question the value of the symbol to laymen and therefore its inclusion in IEC 60417. It's a characteristic shared with the vast majority of the symbols in IEC60417. The only justification is that the alternative to using symbols is worse - umpteen different versions with the advice and warnings given, and controls labelled, in different languages. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN 55103 declaration
I read in !emc-pstc that McBurney, Ian [Allen Heath UK] ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com wrote (in BC4E3DA2E1C8164D9CBE2DF1595DCC 76011...@gandalf.allen-heath.com) about 'EN 55103 declaration' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003: As a UK manufacturer and European exporter of professional electronic audio products, we declare conformity with the relevant EMC product family standards. For testing purposes, we use EN 55103:1996 Parts 1 2 but our EU Declaration of conformity states compliance with BS EN 55103:1997 Parts 1 2. As the majority of our products are exported to mainland Europe should we specify compliance with the EN or BS EN version of the standards? While it is quite reasonable to cite the BS EN, some people may not think so, thus you should cite the EN. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Wan Juang Foo f...@np.edu.sg wrote (in of39a8a68f.ebf7ed21-on48256ca3.00237...@np.edu.sg) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Fri, 3 Jan 2003: I could not by any means to stretch my limited imagination to match the C-tick to the description offered. I don't think that the C-tick mark readily fit the bill, unless there is some more information about this symbol that I do not know about. bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. Since there are no such a feature in the c-tick. Can someone shed some more light on this? These symbols are often very small, and the printing or moulding may be subject to errors or distortions. For example, a continuous line may be rendered with steps in it, and a wide line may degenerate to two thin ones. It is also possible to find the occasional symbol which is intended to deceive. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Gary McInturff Gary.McInturff@worldwidepackets .com wrote (in 917063bab0ddb043af5faa73c7a835d40ac...@windlord.wwp.com ) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Thu, 2 Jan 2003: I have a small double insulated wall wart type power supply. 120 Vac in, 12 Vdc out has a symbol of a house with an arrow pointing inside the house. What is that symbol and whence did it come. 'Indoor use only'. It's in IEC60417 but I don't know the number. This one is going to be tough to describe, and is on a little wireless device. A nearly closed C. The upper half has a horizontal lightning bolt separating top and bottom. In the bottom portion of this symbol is what appears to be a capacitor with horizontal plates. (both plates are represented by flat lines rather than 1 flat and one an arc). I don't know that one, but the IEC/ISO capacitor symbol has parallel plates; the symbol with one arcuate plate is a US divergence from the international standards. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: strange symbols (to me anyway)
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 200301030156.raa04...@epgc264.sdd.hp.com) about 'strange symbols (to me anyway)' on Thu, 2 Jan 2003: It is not an ISO or IEC symbol. It is either in IEC60417 already or will be in the future. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Changes to IEEE emc-pstc web-based services
I read in !emc-pstc that Bill Lyons b...@lyons.demon.co.uk wrote (in 97...@lyons.demon.co.uk) about 'Changes to IEEE emc-pstc web-based services' on Thu, 2 Jan 2003: As an alternative, if sadly EMC-PSTC does go this retrograde way, we could all simply move to the sci.engr.electrical.compliance (s.e.e.c) newsgroup, which is receivable on anything from basic DOS software up and at any connection speed. The only disadvantage is it is not moderated, but it is a pretty low traffic group and there would be no difficulty identifying professional contributions. It's also free of deliberate disruption, although there are sometimes naive questions about which cable to use for wiring power to a garage or similar. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Changes to IEEE emc-pstc web-based services
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in SR- 547...@ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com) about 'Changes to IEEE emc-pstc web- based services' on Tue, 31 Dec 2002: To the extent that we can, we'd like to move our activity to the web rather than use the listserver. It seems to me that the web site system is OK for people with 'always- on' connection, but for those of us on dial-up, especially pay-as-you-go dial up, it will be too expensive to justify participation. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk wrote (in e18ohm0-000bwv...@anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net) about 'dmax test' on Fri, 28 Feb 2003: I agree that switch-on is the most likely culprit in a EMC sense, and that the cooling of mitigation devices (thermistors etc) is important. I was merely pointing out that the standard specifically states: switch off the EUT before the end of the 1 min measuring time intervalI suppose its conceivable that voltage changes could occur, it depends what a particular EUT actually does when you click the switch. A voltage change obviously occurs when the load is removed from the supply. My point is that this change has no element of the nature of inrush. Some might think that there is a 'outrush'! Maybe contact bounce comes into it? Contact bounce and making and breaking speeds differ between switches, which is why you must use the equipment's OWN switch to switch on and off. When developing the test, we tried to use a solid-state relay driven by a phase-detector that would switch at 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees relative to a positive-going zero-crossing of the supply voltage, because that would require just four measurements to get a meaningful result. But we found that the equipment's own switch gave different results (a 20% lower average inrush current in the relevant experiments). -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Superseded standard
I read in !emc-pstc that McBurney, Ian [Allen Heath UK] ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com wrote (in BC4E3DA2E1C8164D9CBE2DF1595DCC 76011...@gandalf.allen-heath.com) about 'Superseded standard' on Thu, 27 Feb 2003: Can anyone tell me when products tested to EN 50082-1:1992 and still in production should have been retested because the 1992 standard has now been superseded. The dow for the 1992 edition is long gone. With respect to the 1998 edition, the dow in EN 6000-6-1 (yes, that's the immunity one) is 2004-07-01, so you have some breathing space BUT... I assume any reports and declaration of conformity documents issued for products declaring conformity with EN 50082-1:1992 are now not legitimate. ..does your company REALLY make anything for which there is NOW no applicable product(-family) standard for immunity? I'd be surprised. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstt This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: refurbished products
I read in !emc-pstc that Brian Epstein brian.epst...@veeco.com wrote (in 41c71af75675d54bb97c2fadcae7f994260...@exchange.di.com) about 'refurbished products' on Thu, 27 Feb 2003: If a customer in the European Economic Area who purchased a product before CE marking was required returns that product to the manufacturer to be refurbished, is that manufacturer required to make all modifications necessary to CE mark that product before returning it to the customer? No, but the shipping documents in BOTH directions must state words to the effect: 'This product was made in 1888, before applicable EU Directives existed. It is being shipped for/after repair to as close to its original specification as possible.' Use the word 'REPAIR', not 'refurbish' or any other word, some of which have specific meanings attached in Guidelines to Directives. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.couk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstt This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Sharp Object
I read in !emc-pstc that Joshua Wiseman jwise...@printronix.com wrote (in f503cb4657afd4119b9400508bb0d6540695c...@irvmail.printronix.com) about 'Sharp Object' on Thu, 27 Feb 2003: I am looking for the symbol for sharp objects. So far I have had little success in finding it. I have an out of date edition of IEC 417 in my office but I don't see it in there. Can someone point me in the right direction. 'Sharp objects' is in an ISO standard, not IEC 60417. I'm not sure whether it is in ISO 7000 or a special medical equipment standard. I suggest that you go to http://www.iso.org and search. Or to your local hospital! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk wrote (in E18oS6s- 000baf...@anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net) about 'dmax test' on Thu, 27 Feb 2003: Annex B of EN61000-3-3 says that both the switch on and switch off events should occur during each of the 1 minute tests. It's a good idea to understand what the test is intended to achieve. In this case, it's the **switch-on** that matters. There are no EMC implications in the sense of IEC/EN 61000-3-3 of the switch-off. If the EUT has, for example, an NTC thermistor to limit inrush current, It is not only permitted, but intended, to allow it to cool down between switch-on events. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: D of C for medical P.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that boconn...@t-yuden.com wrote (in F7E9180F6F7F58 40858d3db815e4f7ad1f2...@cms21.t-yuden.com) about 'D of C for medical P.S.' on Wed, 26 Feb 2003: Thanks for the ideas. But as the LVD specifically precludes medical stuff, how can I declare conformity? Has any NCB issued a formal recomendation for this particular combination? A **power supply** is not a 'medical device', unless you intend it to be used for ECT or electro-cautery or something similar. If it's a power supply for any unspecified medical instrument, it's not, in itself, a medical instrument. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: D of C for medical P.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that Jon Griver jgri...@601help.com wrote (in 3E5C9943.14190.33FECD@localhost) about 'D of C for medical P.S.' on Wed, 26 Feb 2003: You are right not issuing a D of C to the MDD, as your product is not a medical device or an accessory ot a medical device. On the other hand I see no reason not to issue a D of C to the LVD. Compliance with a standard in the list of Harmonised Standards is not the only way to demonstrate compliance with the LVD. It does not take very much effort to draw up a comparison table showing that the requirements for a power supply in IEC 60601-1 are more stringent than say, IEC 60950 or IEC 61010-1. Using engineering judgment on this basis, I believe that you can issue a D of C to the LVD, specifying IEC 60601-1 as the applied standard. You can present your comparison table to anyone who questions this, demonstrating the engineering basis for your declaration. That's what I would recommend, but I don't know enough about 60601-1 to be definite. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: AC feed fail changeover relay
I read in !emc-pstc that bruce maule bruce.ma...@alliedtelesyn.co.nz wrote (in se5cab2b@leo.alliedtelesyn.co.nz) about 'AC feed fail changeover relay' on Wed, 26 Feb 2003: I believe that this scenario is reasonably common, from talking over with our electrical safety test lab, but the solution of using a single relay as the changeover element may not be viable. You can use a relay with two normally-open and two normally-closed contact sets. Provided the insulation between the contact sets meets basic-plus-supplementary or reinforced requirements, you can wire the supplies through two contact sets in series. The contact gaps when open may need to be 3 mm or some other minimum length, depending on your national regulations. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote (in yjwjuocwx7w+e...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) about 'dmax test' on Tue, 25 Feb 2003: I will forward you message to someone who is in a VERY good position to advise, but whose name I may not reveal. Watch this space. Well, I did that and he says you are OK with what you are doing. If he says so, it almost certainly IS so. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Custom Units in EU
I read in !emc-pstc that Gregg Kervill gr...@test4safety.com wrote (in dbebjpdnadnbkogldojioeejcaaa.gr...@test4safety.com) about 'Custom Units in EU' on Tue, 25 Feb 2003: Please re-read John - we are not is disagreement I understand that now. My original statement - 'ONLY If they comply to harmonized standards they are deemed to be safe' is correct. H'mm. I think that the implications of the eyebrows are not clear. A fourth bullet point about the alternative to applying standards would have made your point more clearly. You statement Conformity to standards is NOT the only way of demonstrating compliance with Directives is also correct - but they are not DEEMED nor are they Presumed to be in compliance with the Directives. Not 'deemed', but are 'presumed', I think. Because of your last point below. The Notified Body cannot PROVE that the product is safe, it can only endorse a presumption that it is. The point that I tried (and failed) to make was that the other ways of demonstrating compliance place a greater onus of proving (and associated risk) upon the company PROVING safety. Indeed; the alternative route is generally more difficult and costly, and is only to be followed if that is not so in a particular case. After all - we cannot PROVE something is safe - the best we can do is to eliminate the potential hazards that we can find. Quite right. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that djumbdenst...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A2 05F84BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A0532B31F@flbocexu05) about 'dmax test' on Tue, 25 Feb 2003: We have a HP HFTS (harmonic and flicker test system) 6843A that runs the original flicker tests. Now 61000-3-3 requires a measurement of dmax 24 times, taking the average of 22 readings. We have come up with a way to do that manually using the HFTS. I would like to present it to the group and see if anyone sees an oversight or a better way of doing it. I suspect the program is the same whether you have the 1kva model or the 5kva model 6843A. a) Create an Excel template to record 24 points of data. Create a formula that sums the 24 values, subtracts the max and min, and divides the result by 22. This value is the average dmax required by the amendment. b) Set up the HFTS as follows: Integration Periods:1 PST Int Time: 1 minute Measurement Delay: 0 seconds. c) Start the HFTS Voltage Fluctuation test with the EUT off. d) After several seconds, manually turn on the EUT. e) At the conclusion of the 1 minute test, record the dmax value reported by the HFTS on the excel worksheet. f) Turn off the EUT g) Repeat steps c) to f) 24 times. h) Compare the dmax value reported on the work sheet to the appropriate limit in 61000-3-3, Amendment 1, 2001. This approach requires manual intervention and takes approximately 1/2 hour. It appears to address the requirement of the amendment without requiring modification to the unsupported test equipment. Comments? I will forward you message to someone who is in a VERY good position to advise, but whose name I may not reveal. Watch this space. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: GOST standards
I read in !emc-pstc that Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk wrote (in p05200f07ba7fa37407a5@[192.168.1.29]) about 'GOST standards' on Mon, 24 Feb 2003: Is there anywhere I can identify some sort of cross reference between the GOST standard numbers and the EN standards (if indeed such a comparison is valid)? For a very long time, GOST has adopted IEC standards without change. However, I don't know of a cross-reference list available from IEC. You could enquire through the IEC web page http://www.iec.ch I expect GOST publishes one, but it will obviously be in Russian. There is a GOST web page, with an English version, at http://www.gost.ru -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: IEC 61010 requirements
I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com wrote (in 20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com) about 'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003: The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1? Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should be switched on in an OR. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Harmonics Testing for PCs
I read in !emc-pstc that Lesmeister, Glenn glenn.lesmeis...@hp.com wrote (in 31891b757c09184bbfec5275f85d559502d1d...@cceexc18.americas.cp qcorp.net) about 'Harmonics Testing for PCs' on Thu, 20 Feb 2003: The problem with class A limits is that the higher your power draw, the lower your relative limits are. As you get between 600 and 1000W, class D limits can be higher than class A limits in which you might pass (depending on how bad you were failing). Class D limits include maximum currents equal to the Class A limits, but Clause 5 of the standard limits Class D to products with active input power not exceeding 600 W. So you can't apply Class D limits above 600 W. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Harmonics Testing for PCs
I read in !emc-pstc that rbus...@es.com wrote (in B47A89AEC4538744B9D94 bad7e78efc7458...@torino.corp.es.com) about 'Harmonics Testing for PCs' on Thu, 20 Feb 2003: As for the limits, we are using A. I understand that D is used exclusively for ITE and has tighter limits. You said that the product: QUOTE has essentially 6 rack mounted PCs and a custom designed graphics processor. ENDQUOTE If that isn't ITE, I don't know what is. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Harmonics Testing for PCs
I read in !emc-pstc that rbus...@es.com wrote (in B47A89AEC4538744B9D94 bad7e78efc7454...@torino.corp.es.com) about 'Harmonics Testing for PCs' on Thu, 20 Feb 2003: During the Harmonics test (EN 61000-3-2) the system failed harmonics. Testing all of the peripherals individually, they all passed. As a system, the only way it would pass is to have both power cords from the graphics processor plugged into a single phase. That seems very odd: one would expect the harmonic currents from the two cords to add almost arithmetically. Is there any indication that partial harmonic cancellation was occurring? Obviously this compromises our ability to balance the input current as well as we would have liked. So my question to the group is: 1. Why would the arrangement of the power cords affect the harmonic noise. My guess might be a defective power controller but beyond that I am perplexed. More data, please: Was the product tested as a 3-phase unbalanced load or a balanced load? What is the active power consumption? Which emissions Class (A or D) does the equipment fall into? Which harmonics were too large and by how much? Does the input current fluctuate a lot? It makes a LOT of difference whether the 5th harmonic or the 37th failed! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: IEC 61010 requirements
I read in !emc-pstc that Han, Delphina d...@strykerendo.com wrote (in 4196ec6cef84454d84b90731c905c50e279...@chopin.endo.strykercorp.com) about 'IEC 61010 requirements' on Thu, 20 Feb 2003: How about EMC standards? (maybe I should start a new thread...). Will this PC have to meet IEC 60601-1-2 for medical? Or EN 55022 for ITE? Bear in mind this is in the hospital operating room. I am familiar with medical equipment requirements but not so much with ITE, so forgive me if I'm making mistakes here. You make a very important point, by implication. While safety largely stays within the physical bounds of the equipment and its cables, radiated emissions don't, by definition, and some conducted emissions may not. Immunity is even more subtle: the equipment is exposed to an environment not necessarily foreseen by the manufacturer (although you *have* foreseen it). The conclusion has to be that the 'medical' standards for emissions and immunity should be applied, but **applied with insight**. Provisions of the standards that are irrelevant for the equipment in question need not apply, but all such exceptions MUST be documented. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
