Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Am Samstag 02 August 2008 02:52:08 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:25:17 +0800 Toma [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). As much as I'd like to see Python being there, I have to agree with it being to heavy for that. Lua would be ok. -- :M: - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Carsten wrote: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:50:10 +0200 Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. man.. thank you! a man who has actually played with spidermonkey and js.. and real advice from the trenches! thanks muchly! confirms my thoughts that lua is a much better fit. i was thinking of getting lua in by end of august... i need to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility (after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right now. Design your stuff to be extensible, within reason and if there's reason for it. You don't know what the future can bring, don't limit your design from the start.. all that everyone here has done and has experience with is a drop in an ocean. You didn't want loadable engines for evas at first (original evas), then you did and Jorge rewrote a large amount of stuff.. now you want loadable objs as well - there was always good reason for these. You chose embryo first for edje, now you want to change it to another - there was always good reason for that. Pick one, say LUA, and support that in the 'official' tree, drop embryo if desired, but write the thing to allow for extensibility to support others. If later in time someone(s), for some reason writes a js or whatnot one, and it takes off and is used in ways none here expected then so much the better - let the 'market' decide, don't limit things from the start. Click to go wireless with your computer, ultra fast speed. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nBfhe2oRb8nSGG6eFQLqhypeDGbalpXVZ3PrzHrhNPL2rXe/ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. -- Cedric BAIL - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:17:30 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I think removing embryo now is not a good idea, there are tons of stuff that use embryo (also for just a toggle button). For example half of the projects I have done use embryo (gadman, edje editor, CALCULATOR). IMO is better to leave developers some time to switch to the new engine. I also agree with the use of lua for all the above reason and becouse I liked it in scite scripting. And now that the plan seems real I need to ask the first feature request! Please when you reimplement scripting in edje let the ability to get/modify the source of the various scripts (edje now keep track only of the bytecode code for the scripts). This will solve the biggest issue in edje_editor :) definitely will. the lua code will be in the .edj as source - as lua really likes reading its source and parsing... so u'll have the src there! :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:50:10 +0200 Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. man.. thank you! a man who has actually played with spidermonkey and js.. and real advice from the trenches! thanks muchly! confirms my thoughts that lua is a much better fit. i was thinking of getting lua in by end of august... i need to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility (after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right now. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:50:10 +0200 Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. man.. thank you! a man who has actually played with spidermonkey and js.. and real advice from the trenches! thanks muchly! confirms my thoughts that lua is a much better fit. i was thinking of getting lua in by end of august... i need to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility (after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right now. I think removing embryo now is not a good idea, there are tons of stuff that use embryo (also for just a toggle button). For example half of the projects I have done use embryo (gadman, edje editor, CALCULATOR). IMO is better to leave developers some time to switch to the new engine. I also agree with the use of lua for all the above reason and becouse I liked it in scite scripting. And now that the plan seems real I need to ask the first feature request! Please when you reimplement scripting in edje let the ability to get/modify the source of the various scripts (edje now keep track only of the bytecode code for the scripts). This will solve the biggest issue in edje_editor :) Thanks Dave -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:17:30 +0200 (CEST) Dave Andreoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I think removing embryo now is not a good idea, there are tons of stuff that use embryo (also for just a toggle button). For example half of the projects I have done use embryo (gadman, edje editor, CALCULATOR). IMO is better to leave developers some time to switch to the new engine. I also agree with the use of lua for all the above reason and becouse I liked it in scite scripting. And now that the plan seems real I need to ask the first feature request! Please when you reimplement scripting in edje let the ability to get/modify the source of the various scripts (edje now keep track only of the bytecode code for the scripts). This will solve the biggest issue in edje_editor :) definitely will. the lua code will be in the .edj as source - as lua really likes reading its source and parsing... so u'll have the src there! :) Great, thanks! Dave -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 10:50:10 +0200 Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. man.. thank you! a man who has actually played with spidermonkey and js.. and real advice from the trenches! thanks muchly! confirms my thoughts that lua is a much better fit. i was thinking of getting lua in by end of august... i need to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility (after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right now. If it was just me I said just drop it. But if we really want to have a smooth path, we can just choose the same path as for eet file format change, drop a warning for a few month, then disable its support by default in configure and later completely remove it. During the time, embryo binding will not receive any more improvement. -- Cedric BAIL - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 5:50 AM, Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. Excellent to know, so I remove my JS arguments altogether, Lua we go! (but as davemds said later, I'd keep embryo for some time). -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 2008-08-04 at 08:57 -0300, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 5:50 AM, Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. Excellent to know, so I remove my JS arguments altogether, Lua we go! (but as davemds said later, I'd keep embryo for some time). Are we going to integrate lua 5.1 or an earlier version into edje? If it is 5.1, are we going to create an edje specific module (I don't know how one exposes an API in earlier versions) ? - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 17:16:47 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Mon, 2008-08-04 at 08:57 -0300, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 5:50 AM, Cedric BAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:25 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. : ( I am playing with spidermonkey since some time now and trust me you want to use lua for edje. It's smaller, easier to integrate and fit the need of edje. It's perhaps not a good solution for big apps, but for small script it should be perfect. And in my opinion, it's a matter of a few days to switch to lua in edje and we should do it sooner than latter. I would really like to see this before the end of august and looking at edje, sounds like a really straight forward jobs. Excellent to know, so I remove my JS arguments altogether, Lua we go! (but as davemds said later, I'd keep embryo for some time). Are we going to integrate lua 5.1 or an earlier version into edje? If it is 5.1, are we going to create an edje specific module (I don't know how one exposes an API in earlier versions) ? 5.1 as it's the current lua release - or one of the latest, even then later versions (of lua) unless they break api should just work. as for module - no. just a new .edc script section to throw the lua code into. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility
(after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding
lua...
but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right now.
Well, until Lua is in place I see no problem in keeping Embryo code
also working if causes no harm, using some mechanism like the proposed
in other thread: having annotations for the script tag, and defaults
it to embryo. After Lua is ok, we can evaluate how much Embryo is
still needed, having the option of phasing out it slowly.. (changing
the default script {} to go Lua first, and then removing the
annotations).
Cheers,
Caio Marcelo
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 21:02:38 -0300 Caio Marcelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility
(after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding
lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo right
now.
Well, until Lua is in place I see no problem in keeping Embryo code
also working if causes no harm, using some mechanism like the proposed
in other thread: having annotations for the script tag, and defaults
it to embryo. After Lua is ok, we can evaluate how much Embryo is
still needed, having the option of phasing out it slowly.. (changing
the default script {} to go Lua first, and then removing the
annotations).
oh absolutely - the question more is.. to release edje 1.0 - do we remove
embryo after lua is up and fully functional (equivalent to embryo or better)
--
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 10:07 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 21:02:38 -0300 Caio Marcelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
to play with it first... the question is.. embryo - keep for compatibility
(after the lua change) or throw out? i would keep it anyway while adding
lua... but then.. remove or not? i am listening to those using embryo
right
now.
Well, until Lua is in place I see no problem in keeping Embryo code
also working if causes no harm, using some mechanism like the proposed
in other thread: having annotations for the script tag, and defaults
it to embryo. After Lua is ok, we can evaluate how much Embryo is
still needed, having the option of phasing out it slowly.. (changing
the default script {} to go Lua first, and then removing the
annotations).
oh absolutely - the question more is.. to release edje 1.0 - do we remove
embryo after lua is up and fully functional (equivalent to embryo or better)
better yet, is embryo going to be maintained after that? If it's not,
then it should be removed, since sooner or later, it will fall behind
lua. so is anyone willing to maintain embryo?
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
oh absolutely - the question more is.. to release edje 1.0 - do we remove embryo after lua is up and fully functional (equivalent to embryo or better) I guess this depends more on how much it will take to get Lua up. The more Lua takes to be done (or at least, the more time Lua is in Edje, available to be used), the more time people have to move up and start using it, and less time of embryo secondary support will be needed. Regarding maintanence, I don't think adding new features to Embryo will be something needed, so keeping it as is shouldn't be a problem. Cheers, Caio Marcelo - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 01:35:39 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it provides the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces. Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people customizes WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small you can't even have a comparison. dude! lua is a brazilian invention! aren't you guys patriotic enough to back your own language! :) hehheheheheheh seriously - look at where lua is ised - WoW, adobe photoshop (lightroom), sim city 4, crysis, farcry, homeworld 2... i think actually its heavy use in the game world says something about lua to me. the game authors are much more concerned about speed and efficiency than your average web designer. sure - js may be a bit more accessible, but ... let's be realistic.. this is efl - e. they have had to learn edc and get to grips with a whole new api within a language... they are definitely the people willing to learn a little more.. :) but as such - lua seems to be perfect. it's a small library, well supported, license is good, it's targetted at generally being embedded and sandboxed heavily, and being small and fast. it's definitely got a lot of the checkboxes filled... that's for sure. personally i'd rather take the high road and take the best technical solution over one for political/publicity image purposes. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 01:35:39 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things
including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it provides
the
power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces.
Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people customizes
WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of
them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small
you can't even have a comparison.
dude! lua is a brazilian invention! aren't you guys patriotic enough to back
your own language! :) hehheheheheheh
:-P and if you want more arguments, Brazilian Digital TV standard uses
Lua for one of the interactive standard (lua + xml, the other being
java).
seriously - look at where lua is ised - WoW, adobe photoshop (lightroom), sim
city 4, crysis, farcry, homeworld 2...
some years ago it was very hard to find a small and lean js implementation.
i think actually its heavy use in the game world says something about lua to
me. the game authors are much more concerned about speed and efficiency than
your average web designer. sure - js may be a bit more accessible, but ...
let's be realistic.. this is efl - e. they have had to learn edc and get to
grips with a whole new api within a language... they are definitely the people
willing to learn a little more.. :)
but maybe it's not up to them to decide? Maybe it was imposed by the
tech guys somehow (like at INdT, ProFUSION...), so they have to learn
EDC and {embryo,lua}.
but as such - lua seems to be perfect. it's a small library, well supported,
license is good, it's targetted at generally being embedded and sandboxed
heavily, and being small and fast. it's definitely got a lot of the checkboxes
filled... that's for sure.
JS will fill most of them too.
personally i'd rather take the high road and take the best technical solution
over one for political/publicity image purposes.
I think that both are at the same level, this is like optimizing the
code that is not the hot path, if it's not the hot path, make it
easier to read, to use, to understand... that's my point for JS.
That said, I don't care too much if it's JS or Lua, for me it would be
a minimally easier to use JS as I know the language, but I don't mind
using Lua. But we need to evaluate other options to end with
yet-another-embryo. Using JS will not impact badly, but can bring more
marketing and good public image to E to use something that people
know... as you were saying on the other threads, E needs more
developers, needs better marketing and these things can help.
--
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
--
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype: gsbarbieri
Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:04:53 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 01:35:39 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things
including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it provides
the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces.
Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people customizes
WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of
them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small
you can't even have a comparison.
dude! lua is a brazilian invention! aren't you guys patriotic enough to back
your own language! :) hehheheheheheh
:-P and if you want more arguments, Brazilian Digital TV standard uses
Lua for one of the interactive standard (lua + xml, the other being
java).
seriously - look at where lua is ised - WoW, adobe photoshop (lightroom),
sim city 4, crysis, farcry, homeworld 2...
some years ago it was very hard to find a small and lean js implementation.
i think actually its heavy use in the game world says something about lua to
me. the game authors are much more concerned about speed and efficiency than
your average web designer. sure - js may be a bit more accessible, but ...
let's be realistic.. this is efl - e. they have had to learn edc and get to
grips with a whole new api within a language... they are definitely the
people willing to learn a little more.. :)
but maybe it's not up to them to decide? Maybe it was imposed by the
tech guys somehow (like at INdT, ProFUSION...), so they have to learn
EDC and {embryo,lua}.
but as such - lua seems to be perfect. it's a small library, well supported,
license is good, it's targetted at generally being embedded and sandboxed
heavily, and being small and fast. it's definitely got a lot of the
checkboxes filled... that's for sure.
JS will fill most of them too.
personally i'd rather take the high road and take the best technical
solution over one for political/publicity image purposes.
I think that both are at the same level, this is like optimizing the
code that is not the hot path, if it's not the hot path, make it
easier to read, to use, to understand... that's my point for JS.
That said, I don't care too much if it's JS or Lua, for me it would be
a minimally easier to use JS as I know the language, but I don't mind
using Lua. But we need to evaluate other options to end with
yet-another-embryo. Using JS will not impact badly, but can bring more
marketing and good public image to E to use something that people
know... as you were saying on the other threads, E needs more
developers, needs better marketing and these things can help.
ok - do we have a small stand-alone javascript engine library that comes with
minimal/almost no bindings of its own (ie so its just an execution engine - not
part of webkit etc. etc.) that is comparable to lua in speed/size etc.?
--
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 2008-08-04 at 09:17 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:04:53 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 01:35:39 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things
including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it
provides
the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces.
Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people customizes
WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of
them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small
you can't even have a comparison.
dude! lua is a brazilian invention! aren't you guys patriotic enough to
back
your own language! :) hehheheheheheh
:-P and if you want more arguments, Brazilian Digital TV standard uses
Lua for one of the interactive standard (lua + xml, the other being
java).
seriously - look at where lua is ised - WoW, adobe photoshop (lightroom),
sim city 4, crysis, farcry, homeworld 2...
some years ago it was very hard to find a small and lean js implementation.
i think actually its heavy use in the game world says something about lua
to
me. the game authors are much more concerned about speed and efficiency
than
your average web designer. sure - js may be a bit more accessible, but
...
let's be realistic.. this is efl - e. they have had to learn edc and get
to
grips with a whole new api within a language... they are definitely the
people willing to learn a little more.. :)
but maybe it's not up to them to decide? Maybe it was imposed by the
tech guys somehow (like at INdT, ProFUSION...), so they have to learn
EDC and {embryo,lua}.
but as such - lua seems to be perfect. it's a small library, well
supported,
license is good, it's targetted at generally being embedded and sandboxed
heavily, and being small and fast. it's definitely got a lot of the
checkboxes filled... that's for sure.
JS will fill most of them too.
personally i'd rather take the high road and take the best technical
solution over one for political/publicity image purposes.
I think that both are at the same level, this is like optimizing the
code that is not the hot path, if it's not the hot path, make it
easier to read, to use, to understand... that's my point for JS.
That said, I don't care too much if it's JS or Lua, for me it would be
a minimally easier to use JS as I know the language, but I don't mind
using Lua. But we need to evaluate other options to end with
yet-another-embryo. Using JS will not impact badly, but can bring more
marketing and good public image to E to use something that people
know... as you were saying on the other threads, E needs more
developers, needs better marketing and these things can help.
ok - do we have a small stand-alone javascript engine library that comes with
minimal/almost no bindings of its own (ie so its just an execution engine -
not
part of webkit etc. etc.) that is comparable to lua in speed/size etc.?
Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is
currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then
there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for
ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out
there.
-
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:43 PM, Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Mon, 2008-08-04 at 09:17 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:04:53 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 7:51 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 01:35:39 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few
things
including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it
provides
the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces.
Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people
customizes
WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of
them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small
you can't even have a comparison.
dude! lua is a brazilian invention! aren't you guys patriotic enough
to back
your own language! :) hehheheheheheh
:-P and if you want more arguments, Brazilian Digital TV standard uses
Lua for one of the interactive standard (lua + xml, the other being
java).
seriously - look at where lua is ised - WoW, adobe photoshop
(lightroom),
sim city 4, crysis, farcry, homeworld 2...
some years ago it was very hard to find a small and lean js
implementation.
i think actually its heavy use in the game world says something about
lua to
me. the game authors are much more concerned about speed and
efficiency than
your average web designer. sure - js may be a bit more accessible,
but ...
let's be realistic.. this is efl - e. they have had to learn edc and
get to
grips with a whole new api within a language... they are definitely
the
people willing to learn a little more.. :)
but maybe it's not up to them to decide? Maybe it was imposed by the
tech guys somehow (like at INdT, ProFUSION...), so they have to learn
EDC and {embryo,lua}.
but as such - lua seems to be perfect. it's a small library, well
supported,
license is good, it's targetted at generally being embedded and
sandboxed
heavily, and being small and fast. it's definitely got a lot of the
checkboxes filled... that's for sure.
JS will fill most of them too.
personally i'd rather take the high road and take the best technical
solution over one for political/publicity image purposes.
I think that both are at the same level, this is like optimizing the
code that is not the hot path, if it's not the hot path, make it
easier to read, to use, to understand... that's my point for JS.
That said, I don't care too much if it's JS or Lua, for me it would be
a minimally easier to use JS as I know the language, but I don't mind
using Lua. But we need to evaluate other options to end with
yet-another-embryo. Using JS will not impact badly, but can bring more
marketing and good public image to E to use something that people
know... as you were saying on the other threads, E needs more
developers, needs better marketing and these things can help.
ok - do we have a small stand-alone javascript engine library that comes
with
minimal/almost no bindings of its own (ie so its just an execution engine
- not
part of webkit etc. etc.) that is comparable to lua in speed/size etc.?
Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is
currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then
there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for
ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out
there.
In my opinion and my experience using javascript and Lua, I strongly prefer
Lua.
I honestly think it is the best fit for this project. I personally use Lua
for some of my projects at work because it is efficient in both size/speed.
I use it to create GUI's for Server RAID setups making it easier to set them
up. The environment is LiveCD but stripped to include almost all RAID
controller drivers and a simple GUI. I am currently working on setting up
the environment using the EFL so if Lua became part of the project that
would make my day.
This is just my 2cents.
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:43:33 +0300 Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Rhino is java based, so that's out. Then we have SpiderMonkey, which is currently used by gecko1.9. That's not as fast as webkit's engine. Then there's tamarin, which is practically future proof, with its support for ES4. However, it's not complete. I don't know of any other engines out there. hmmm wel then it spidermonkey or... nothing. and spidermonkey is pretty fat... it's api is pretty big... :/ quick look.. not smelling positive. :( -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:03:33 -0500 Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Jose Gonzalez wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Just wanted to note that ActionScript is actually based on ECMAScript afaik which is what JS is based on and thus why they are so similar. in all honesty - javascript is not going to make anything a lot better... as the only thing we will get is language constructs - the massive pool of knowledge on js is its use WITH www objects and with the api and event facilities a browser provides. this will not be the same. this bit will be different, thus all we get is syntax and core language constructs (i.e. C without even libc). so aqs such the usefulness of such a syntax is not so much - as frankly - lua, java, javascript, c, c++ all inherit vastly similar core syntax and constructs. if we were doing lisp or haskel or prolog... i'd say we are making life hard for designers. even python diverges much more than lua/c/c+ +/perl/js etc. etc. - so we're in ballpark already. remember they likely also have to learn all of edje/edc and the internal edje api we expose anyway... so lanugage i think is a moot point here beyond overall core syntax style - and if it's familiar and easy. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 3:52 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:03:33 -0500 Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Jose Gonzalez wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Just wanted to note that ActionScript is actually based on ECMAScript afaik which is what JS is based on and thus why they are so similar. in all honesty - javascript is not going to make anything a lot better... as the only thing we will get is language constructs - the massive pool of knowledge on js is its use WITH www objects and with the api and event facilities a browser provides. this will not be the same. this bit will be different, thus all we get is syntax and core language constructs (i.e. C without even libc). so aqs such the usefulness of such a syntax is not so much - as frankly - lua, java, javascript, c, c++ all inherit vastly similar core syntax and constructs. if we were doing lisp or haskel or prolog... i'd say we are making life hard for designers. even python diverges much more than lua/c/c+ +/perl/js etc. etc. - so we're in ballpark already. remember they likely also have to learn all of edje/edc and the internal edje api we expose anyway... so lanugage i think is a moot point here beyond overall core syntax style - and if it's familiar and easy. :) As I mentioned in other mails, I strongly disagree. Users, specially non-hackers (ie: designers, the target audience) are usually very reluctant to learn a new programming language. It's more psycological than technical, as you said the actual work will be almost the same for them, however their willingness to do so will be heavily impacted by such. As you said, like in the C without libC, if you present hackers that know C with a machine with C w/o libC or another language, they'll go with C because they think they know it more and thus will be easier. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
delurk/ On Aug 2, 2008, at 12:11 AM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 3:52 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:03:33 -0500 Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Jose Gonzalez wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Just wanted to note that ActionScript is actually based on ECMAScript afaik which is what JS is based on and thus why they are so similar. in all honesty - javascript is not going to make anything a lot better... as the only thing we will get is language constructs - the massive pool of knowledge on js is its use WITH www objects and with the api and event facilities a browser provides. this will not be the same. this bit will be different, thus all we get is syntax and core language constructs (i.e. C without even libc). so aqs such the usefulness of such a syntax is not so much - as frankly - lua, java, javascript, c, c++ all inherit vastly similar core syntax and constructs. if we were doing lisp or haskel or prolog... i'd say we are making life hard for designers. even python diverges much more than lua/c/c+ +/perl/js etc. etc. - so we're in ballpark already. remember they likely also have to learn all of edje/edc and the internal edje api we expose anyway... so lanugage i think is a moot point here beyond overall core syntax style - and if it's familiar and easy. :) As I mentioned in other mails, I strongly disagree. Users, specially non-hackers (ie: designers, the target audience) are usually very reluctant to learn a new programming language. It's more psycological than technical, as you said the actual work will be almost the same for them, however their willingness to do so will be heavily impacted by such. This is a very good observation. As you said, like in the C without libC, if you present hackers that know C with a machine with C w/o libC or another language, they'll go with C because they think they know it more and thus will be easier. I know I'm not really involved anymore, but I would really hate to see yet another long-term delay keep e17 from being released. Stick with embryo, and if possible make it stick around for e18 as well, make language choice a possibility. -Blake lurk/ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
[E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Hi guys, As we're discussing on lots of threads, it would be good, if not necessary, to release parts of E that we think are in good shape. This will help in many fronts, including easy of use since distros will start to package it officially. After Eet, I'd like to see Embryo release since it's mature and almost no changes in last months, making a perfect candidate. I know there was some desire to mix Lua somehow, maybe as replacement or extension, but I really thing that should be postponed because it might even not happen at all. Do you see any blocker to this release? If there is any blocker we have until August 15th to fix it, otherwise we can release it this weekend or next week. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma 2008/8/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi guys, As we're discussing on lots of threads, it would be good, if not necessary, to release parts of E that we think are in good shape. This will help in many fronts, including easy of use since distros will start to package it officially. After Eet, I'd like to see Embryo release since it's mature and almost no changes in last months, making a perfect candidate. I know there was some desire to mix Lua somehow, maybe as replacement or extension, but I really thing that should be postponed because it might even not happen at all. Do you see any blocker to this release? If there is any blocker we have until August 15th to fix it, otherwise we can release it this weekend or next week. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. 2008/8/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi guys, As we're discussing on lots of threads, it would be good, if not necessary, to release parts of E that we think are in good shape. This will help in many fronts, including easy of use since distros will start to package it officially. After Eet, I'd like to see Embryo release since it's mature and almost no changes in last months, making a perfect candidate. I know there was some desire to mix Lua somehow, maybe as replacement or extension, but I really thing that should be postponed because it might even not happen at all. Do you see any blocker to this release? If there is any blocker we have until August 15th to fix it, otherwise we can release it this weekend or next week. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense. if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)? -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 08:30 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense. if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)? My 2c would be to drop embryo in favor of any other C-style language (lua/perl/javascript/python). I don't know whether a modularized script environment (for edje or otherwise) is planned, but if it's not, even lua would be an improvement, imho. - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 7:30 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense. if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)? I like embryo and I think we should support it, at least until e17 is released. I don't see Canola, Carman and other projects, including those that I'm working on, with need to move to lua or more powerful for Edje. Also, I don't see these porting to newer code and I think it will stupidly delay e17 release. I like the _idea_ of a more powerful language for Edje, but really, not now... if we want something it's 100% easier to finish eetimport support for python and use it (as a short term - 1-2 year - solution, fine to change to lua later). -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Viktor Kojouharov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 08:30 +1000, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense. if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)? My 2c would be to drop embryo in favor of any other C-style language (lua/perl/javascript/python). I don't know whether a modularized script environment (for edje or otherwise) is planned, but if it's not, even lua would be an improvement, imho. That makes me remember that JS is also a good option (together with Python, see my mail to raster), given that Cedric have bindings for lots of EFL. But I'd not drop Embryo now, really. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toma wrote: Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje is ready for release and send them out together? Toma Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point. It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and lots of different interests and pov will raise. as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense. if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)? Well this is the only issue afaik stopping embryo from going out. Do you want the community to vote on this or are you going to make the decision? If it's up for vote then I'd vote to ship it as is since embryo seems powerful enough for simple theme animations and that's what edje is being marketed as at this point. With the next release of edje if we want the more powerful scripting and extra bindings to make it more like flash/silverlight/etc then it will definitely be seen as worthy of another major release and I'm sure people wouldn't mind the break all that much. I think there would be enough time between the release of this iteration and the next that we could let developers know that the switch is coming and they could prepare. I think lua would fit better with the more flash like edje then with the current version anyway so I vote to kick it out the door so we can get started on the transformation. Maybe the limitations of the current edje will bring in devs to help with this as well, who knows :) (I realize this is not a smoking gun so don't go crazy on me.) That's just my 2c. - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 08:25:17 +0800 Toma [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the
sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better
scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too
big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to
wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it
can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty
much a level playing field based on:
1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better
2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc.
3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for
doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any
features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje).
lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close
second (used to be better than lua).
2008/8/2 Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:23:41 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Toma wrote:
Does embryo have any use without edje? If not, why not wait till edje
is ready for release and send them out together?
Toma
Yes it does, it just isn't really used outside of edje at this point.
It's another package, so it's not tied in any way. We need to do
releases and a good start and training is with these libs. When things
go to Evas, Ecore and Edje, things will get much more complicated and
lots of different interests and pov will raise.
as per my other email... i want to look at lua for edje... right now if we
want to KEEP embryo support in edje - then am embryo release makes sense.
if we don't - it makes no sense. so i'd like to know.. how important would
keeping embryo be... *IF* we were to also add and much more heavily
support lua? (or for that matter any other scripting engine?)?
I can only really think of a couple things needed, and thats moving
parts up and down. Sure you can duplicate bits and have them appear
and what not, but if you could EASYILY move an object up and down in
the code then that would help tremendously. That said, it would
probably be an option in the programs{} of edje and perhaps some basic
support for that in embryo would suffice, but as others are saying,
might be a good idea to delay that to a 'embryo/edje 2.0' kind of
release.
Another thing people are often inquiring about is creating whole parts
on the fly with embryo. I think thats more of a misconception of
embryo and edje together, since embryo is used to control edje parts,
not create edje parts (at least thats how I understand it)...
So my 2c goes in the 'Keep Embryo as it is' jar.
Toma
Well this is the only issue afaik stopping embryo from going out. Do
you want the community to vote on this or are you going to make the
decision? If it's up for vote then I'd vote to ship it as is since
embryo seems powerful enough for simple theme animations and that's what
edje is being marketed as at this point. With the next release of edje
if we want the more powerful scripting and extra bindings to make it
more like flash/silverlight/etc then it will definitely be seen as
worthy of another major release and I'm sure people wouldn't mind the
break all that much. I think there would be enough time between the
release of this iteration and the next that we could let developers know
that the switch is coming and they could prepare. I think lua would fit
better with the more flash like edje then with the current version
anyway so I vote to kick it out the door so we can get started on the
transformation. Maybe the limitations of the current edje will bring in
devs to help with this as well, who knows :) (I realize this is not a
smoking gun so don't go crazy on me.)
That's just my 2c.
-
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Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Saturday, 02 August 2008, at 10:52:08 (+1000), Carsten Haitzler wrote: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). Python is definitely too bulky and unstable (i.e., moving target). Perl is a stationary target but still too heavy. Even JS might be too much, and it's not really a speed demon. I know rpm5 is using lua to great success. It's clean, fast, and easy to embed. I'll also reiterate my recommendation of ferite for the same reasons. (I personally prefer ferite's syntax to lua's, but lua seems to have won the popularity contest.) Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) --- For the life of me I cannot remember what made us think that we were wise and we'd never comprimise. For the life of me I cannot believe we'd ever die for these sins. We were merely freshman. -- The Verve Pipe, The Freshman - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Michael Jennings wrote: On Saturday, 02 August 2008, at 10:52:08 (+1000), Carsten Haitzler wrote: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). Python is definitely too bulky and unstable (i.e., moving target). Perl is a stationary target but still too heavy. Even JS might be too much, and it's not really a speed demon. I know rpm5 is using lua to great success. It's clean, fast, and easy to embed. I'll also reiterate my recommendation of ferite for the same reasons. (I personally prefer ferite's syntax to lua's, but lua seems to have won the popularity contest.) I'd also throw a vote out for ferite, the author of it was once involved with E wasn't he? If anything I know he'd be very interested with an integration in edje as I've personally been asked by him if anyone had considered it :) I might even take a close look at lua and ferite so I can make a more informed decision :) Just so I'm aware, is there anything outstanding in lua that embryo can't do? Is it just the wide-spread usage of lua and it's documentation that make it worth the switch or is it syntactically better, provide better performance, etc? Michael - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Jennings wrote: On Saturday, 02 August 2008, at 10:52:08 (+1000), Carsten Haitzler wrote: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). Python is definitely too bulky and unstable (i.e., moving target). Perl is a stationary target but still too heavy. Even JS might be too much, and it's not really a speed demon. I know rpm5 is using lua to great success. It's clean, fast, and easy to embed. I'll also reiterate my recommendation of ferite for the same reasons. (I personally prefer ferite's syntax to lua's, but lua seems to have won the popularity contest.) I'd also throw a vote out for ferite, the author of it was once involved with E wasn't he? If anything I know he'd be very interested with an integration in edje as I've personally been asked by him if anyone had considered it :) I might even take a close look at lua and ferite so I can make a more informed decision :) Just so I'm aware, is there anything outstanding in lua that embryo can't do? Is it just the wide-spread usage of lua and it's documentation that make it worth the switch or is it syntactically better, provide better performance, etc? Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Jennings wrote: On Saturday, 02 August 2008, at 10:52:08 (+1000), Carsten Haitzler wrote: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). Python is definitely too bulky and unstable (i.e., moving target). Perl is a stationary target but still too heavy. Even JS might be too much, and it's not really a speed demon. I know rpm5 is using lua to great success. It's clean, fast, and easy to embed. I'll also reiterate my recommendation of ferite for the same reasons. (I personally prefer ferite's syntax to lua's, but lua seems to have won the popularity contest.) I'd also throw a vote out for ferite, the author of it was once involved with E wasn't he? If anything I know he'd be very interested with an integration in edje as I've personally been asked by him if anyone had considered it :) I might even take a close look at lua and ferite so I can make a more informed decision :) Just so I'm aware, is there anything outstanding in lua that embryo can't do? Is it just the wide-spread usage of lua and it's documentation that make it worth the switch or is it syntactically better, provide better performance, etc? Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it provides the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces. - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 1:22 AM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Nick Hughart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Jennings wrote: On Saturday, 02 August 2008, at 10:52:08 (+1000), Carsten Haitzler wrote: seems there's a few votes for keep of embryo. i'm going to just monitor the sentiment here - i'm agnostic really - though edje needs a LOT better scripting support. yes JS might be an option - python imho is just away too big and heavy. existing efl bindings are not really useful as edje will have to wrap and hide most things - ie you set up a timer - edje needs to know so it can delete the timer on edje object deletion. just an example. so it's pretty much a level playing field based on: 1. efficiency of the language - the leaner/faster, the better 2. actual language ease of use/documentation/facilities. etc. 3. aptness of the language engine to embedding as a slave to a library for doing code logic (ie be able to function fully sandboxed without any features/calls and all calls are explicitly exported from edje). lua right now seems to be probably the candidate i've seen. embryo is a close second (used to be better than lua). Python is definitely too bulky and unstable (i.e., moving target). Perl is a stationary target but still too heavy. Even JS might be too much, and it's not really a speed demon. I know rpm5 is using lua to great success. It's clean, fast, and easy to embed. I'll also reiterate my recommendation of ferite for the same reasons. (I personally prefer ferite's syntax to lua's, but lua seems to have won the popularity contest.) I'd also throw a vote out for ferite, the author of it was once involved with E wasn't he? If anything I know he'd be very interested with an integration in edje as I've personally been asked by him if anyone had considered it :) I might even take a close look at lua and ferite so I can make a more informed decision :) Just so I'm aware, is there anything outstanding in lua that embryo can't do? Is it just the wide-spread usage of lua and it's documentation that make it worth the switch or is it syntactically better, provide better performance, etc? Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. I wouldn't say lua isn't widespread, it's used in quite a few things including interface customization in World of Warcraft where it provides the power to do some pretty advanced user interfaces. Yes, it's not a small niche as Embryo, but know many people customizes WoW? I know other games uses it as well, but now you compare all of them together with number of web developers out there, it's so small you can't even have a comparison. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. It's never been easier to change your name. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nf7hVQSr1dYny9HK7HXxc0zGws0bCrLHpyvVN7qY6fIZFjW/ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 1:40 AM, Jose Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Another pros: - familiar, C-like syntax; - OO support -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
As someone with no scripting or coding experience, I found embryo to be quite easy to get a handle on. I havent tried learning all those other ones, but when it comes to all the different code stuff in Edje, you really have to keep it as simple as possible. After all, edje is a canvas for art really, and doesnt need to be anymore complex. Ive never found any limitations in embryo (we all remember that spacegame thing) and I imagine if anyone wanted to do more they would just work that into the evas/c code rather than the edje theme. Toma 2008/8/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 1:40 AM, Jose Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Another pros: - familiar, C-like syntax; - OO support -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 1:54 AM, Toma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As someone with no scripting or coding experience, I found embryo to be quite easy to get a handle on. I havent tried learning all those other ones, but when it comes to all the different code stuff in Edje, you really have to keep it as simple as possible. After all, edje is a canvas for art really, and doesnt need to be anymore complex. Ive never found any limitations in embryo (we all remember that spacegame thing) and I imagine if anyone wanted to do more they would just work that into the evas/c code rather than the edje theme. and if we really start to explore embryo usage within edje, we get to the point that exposing more calls will suffice. as people did with things like drag_size set, part restack, etc. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -- MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Jose Gonzalez wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Just wanted to note that ActionScript is actually based on ECMAScript afaik which is what JS is based on and thus why they are so similar. It's never been easier to change your name. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nf7hVQSr1dYny9HK7HXxc0zGws0bCrLHpyvVN7qY6fIZFjW/ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] RFC: embryo release in 2 weeks
Gustavo wrote: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 1:40 AM, Jose Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo wrote: Since Edje is target at designers (ie: colors are not premul, etc), I think we should go with JS since most designers know it somehow, even if they don't really know, they think they do and they will not be afraid of trying it... Also, many systems use it as scripting language, comes to mind Photoshop, Qt-based applications and it's the official language of KDE for exactly that reason. I remember INdT designers hacking some Photoshop scripts just because they knew bits of JS from web development. Lua is good, yes, but I think that going with a more widespread language is the way to go. Indeed. Javascript has enourmous widespread use on the web, very well knonwn to designers, very close to flash's actionscript, and runtimes for it are becoming faster. It should be a verious consideration. Another pros: - familiar, C-like syntax; - OO support There's also something else here related to an earlier discussion about this - namely, just what the 'role' is of scripting vs. descriptive formats. One of the things that's 'good' about MS's wpf/silverlight is that it has this declarative syntax (xaml) which can then be manipulated via any number of 'scripting' languages, ie. not bound to a given one. Flex has a similar syntax (mxml) but is (I think) exclusively bound to their actionscript language, and I think flash itself is more or less purely actionscript (any flash experts around here?). Now, in the case of edje, its current use of the edc format is limited to defining these stateful templates we call 'groups' for designing gui components.. but that's not all it could do, and it's been mentioned that it would be useful to allow 'containers' and similar kinds of components to be described. In fact, evolve's edc has something close to this kind of usage, and could have a lot more. If these kinds of things are further explored, in edje/edc or evolve/edc, then one again is led to consider allowing for support for 'edc' by various scripting languages as available - support for 'edc' in that there would be a means to read/write the syntax and modify properties of objects involved via those languages. Take a perfect family vacation to Orlando. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nK7u2MpxehnUBAoCBk8d3H2JRe0ivx3i3MSQtL7R36Em4AM/ - This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100url=/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
