Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Markus Törnqvist]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 12:31:29PM -0700, mk wrote:

Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow 
added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors are 
extremely disturbing psychologically speaking. 

As a piece of trivia, the Helsinki metro is a horrible orange;
http://www.raitio.org/metro/kalusto/m100/m100_kuvat/109_ik.jpg
http://areena.yle.fi/static/mk/images/previews/ed/ed1d4916505e4c66a708711296167e2e/47945_preview_620.jpg

The rationale I heard is that when they were originally building it
in the early 80s, they chose that color because they were afraid
hobos and others would start hanging out in the metros. This still
happens in the winters, but the color is meant to deter people.

I do use a red-ish theme, can't remember which one, at home but
on my laptop I only changed the background image on the default
theme and it's really cool that gtk2 apps now look the same. Wish
I hadn't put up with the default gtk looks for years and now it
looks like I have to do that with gtk3 :/

When I was on Window Maker I made some themes of my own.
Looking at these screenshots makes me feel like a kid again :D

But I do wish making themes for Enlightenment was as easy
as making wmaker themes back then.

A couple of band-related themes:
http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-ajattara_theme.jpg
http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-kotiteollisuus_theme.jpg
http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-symphonyx_theme.jpg
which turned out annoying to be actually used, but good finger
practice.

I used this one for the longest time
http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-alsashot.png

The one I ended up finally using was this because the image
is so cool. Guess it was a big hit at the time ;)
http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/unleash_tacgnol_theme_proto.png

But the story to be learned is that even a clueless kid like
I-back-then could tell what works and what doesn't. Most themes
for wmaker were crap - as were most for enlightenment.

Noticing this should be an encouragement for theme makers to
try a bit harder and I for one will read the links on color
theory here, because it's all pretty new to me :D

Hopefully get a theme or two ported that I used to use
to enlightenment some day, but even better :)

Is this still current?
http://www.bodhilinux.com/e17guide/e17guideEN/creating_themes.html

Wasn't there a GUI app for editing Edje files? Googling comes
up kinda empty, though there seem to be references to something...

Thanks!

-- 
mjt


--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:09:22 +0300 Markus Törnqvist m...@nysv.org said:

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 12:31:29PM -0700, mk wrote:
 
 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow
 added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors
 are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking. 
 
 As a piece of trivia, the Helsinki metro is a horrible orange;
 http://www.raitio.org/metro/kalusto/m100/m100_kuvat/109_ik.jpg
 http://areena.yle.fi/static/mk/images/previews/ed/ed1d4916505e4c66a708711296167e2e/47945_preview_620.jpg
 
 The rationale I heard is that when they were originally building it
 in the early 80s, they chose that color because they were afraid
 hobos and others would start hanging out in the metros. This still
 happens in the winters, but the color is meant to deter people.
 
 I do use a red-ish theme, can't remember which one, at home but
 on my laptop I only changed the background image on the default
 theme and it's really cool that gtk2 apps now look the same. Wish
 I hadn't put up with the default gtk looks for years and now it
 looks like I have to do that with gtk3 :/
 
 When I was on Window Maker I made some themes of my own.
 Looking at these screenshots makes me feel like a kid again :D
 
 But I do wish making themes for Enlightenment was as easy
 as making wmaker themes back then.
 
 A couple of band-related themes:
 http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-ajattara_theme.jpg
 http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-kotiteollisuus_theme.jpg
 http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-symphonyx_theme.jpg
 which turned out annoying to be actually used, but good finger
 practice.
 
 I used this one for the longest time
 http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-alsashot.png
 
 The one I ended up finally using was this because the image
 is so cool. Guess it was a big hit at the time ;)
 http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/unleash_tacgnol_theme_proto.png
 
 But the story to be learned is that even a clueless kid like
 I-back-then could tell what works and what doesn't. Most themes
 for wmaker were crap - as were most for enlightenment.
 
 Noticing this should be an encouragement for theme makers to
 try a bit harder and I for one will read the links on color
 theory here, because it's all pretty new to me :D
 
 Hopefully get a theme or two ported that I used to use
 to enlightenment some day, but even better :)
 
 Is this still current?
 http://www.bodhilinux.com/e17guide/e17guideEN/creating_themes.html
 
 Wasn't there a GUI app for editing Edje files? Googling comes
 up kinda empty, though there seem to be references to something...

there are several. editje in python, enventor is a new one in c (with text +
preview to the left), and eflete (a theme editor geared to elementary with
templates).

for you - i might suggest enventor right now.

but themes for e are massive beasts. there is a reason - they define just about
everything you see. in gory detail. animation, behavior, layout, padding,
sizing, styling, lighting, colors etc. - they are massively powerful. a theme
can just about turn the world upside down in gory nitty pixel-perfect detail
with scaling and resizing and all... but all that power comes with a cost -
complexity. :( you will find themes are not THAT complex, but they are BIG.
they are just more and more and more of ... stuff. ;)

 Thanks!
 
 -- 
 mjt
 
 
 --
 HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
 Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
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 http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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 enlightenment-users mailing list
 enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
 


-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Alberto Verdoja]

I agree. I've spend one year of free time (not all my free time, but a good
part) to create Radiance and another year for the super green and orange
Bodhi Forum Theme.
I haven't used a lot of GUI, anyway.
Good luck! :)


2014-06-12 10:45 GMT+02:00 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com:

 On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:09:22 +0300 Markus Törnqvist m...@nysv.org said:

  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 12:31:29PM -0700, mk wrote:
  
  Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow
  added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors
  are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
 
  As a piece of trivia, the Helsinki metro is a horrible orange;
  http://www.raitio.org/metro/kalusto/m100/m100_kuvat/109_ik.jpg
 
 http://areena.yle.fi/static/mk/images/previews/ed/ed1d4916505e4c66a708711296167e2e/47945_preview_620.jpg
 
  The rationale I heard is that when they were originally building it
  in the early 80s, they chose that color because they were afraid
  hobos and others would start hanging out in the metros. This still
  happens in the winters, but the color is meant to deter people.
 
  I do use a red-ish theme, can't remember which one, at home but
  on my laptop I only changed the background image on the default
  theme and it's really cool that gtk2 apps now look the same. Wish
  I hadn't put up with the default gtk looks for years and now it
  looks like I have to do that with gtk3 :/
 
  When I was on Window Maker I made some themes of my own.
  Looking at these screenshots makes me feel like a kid again :D
 
  But I do wish making themes for Enlightenment was as easy
  as making wmaker themes back then.
 
  A couple of band-related themes:
  http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-ajattara_theme.jpg
  http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-kotiteollisuus_theme.jpg
  http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-symphonyx_theme.jpg
  which turned out annoying to be actually used, but good finger
  practice.
 
  I used this one for the longest time
  http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/entil-alsashot.png
 
  The one I ended up finally using was this because the image
  is so cool. Guess it was a big hit at the time ;)
  http://mjt.nysv.org/screenshots/unleash_tacgnol_theme_proto.png
 
  But the story to be learned is that even a clueless kid like
  I-back-then could tell what works and what doesn't. Most themes
  for wmaker were crap - as were most for enlightenment.
 
  Noticing this should be an encouragement for theme makers to
  try a bit harder and I for one will read the links on color
  theory here, because it's all pretty new to me :D
 
  Hopefully get a theme or two ported that I used to use
  to enlightenment some day, but even better :)
 
  Is this still current?
  http://www.bodhilinux.com/e17guide/e17guideEN/creating_themes.html
 
  Wasn't there a GUI app for editing Edje files? Googling comes
  up kinda empty, though there seem to be references to something...

 there are several. editje in python, enventor is a new one in c (with text
 +
 preview to the left), and eflete (a theme editor geared to elementary with
 templates).

 for you - i might suggest enventor right now.

 but themes for e are massive beasts. there is a reason - they define just
 about
 everything you see. in gory detail. animation, behavior, layout, padding,
 sizing, styling, lighting, colors etc. - they are massively powerful. a
 theme
 can just about turn the world upside down in gory nitty pixel-perfect
 detail
 with scaling and resizing and all... but all that power comes with a cost -
 complexity. :( you will find themes are not THAT complex, but they are BIG.
 they are just more and more and more of ... stuff. ;)

  Thanks!
 
  --
  mjt
 
 
 
 --
  HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
  Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
  Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
  Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
  http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
  ___
  enlightenment-users mailing list
  enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
 


 --
 - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
 The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com



 --
 HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
 Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
 Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
 ___
 enlightenment-users mailing list
 enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Martin Koelewijn]

@raster: I'm curious about the gtkrc you made. The attachment, as usual,
failed to arrive at the mailing list. Could you paste it somewhere and
share the link? Thanks.

M


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
wrote:

 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
 said:

  They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E
 in
  general.

 i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:

 Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking
 screenshots.
 Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
 helpful.

 and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot.
 the
 original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
 clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
 screenshot thread:

 Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
 consistency.

 Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large,
 and the
 icons are awful.

 The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is
 off.
 The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and
 badly
 drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also
 a bit
 off.

 in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
 bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.

 the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize
 OTHER
 than it's dark and i don't like dark (which was basically one guy) and
 it
 doesn't look flat and modern were about poor mismatching in the ui - the
 red
 glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm
 thanks
 to the different theme.

 i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread.
 there
 is a pattern:

 1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
 2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or
 then it
 sucks
 3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff

 there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in
 those
 threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
 some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.



  That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a
 default
  Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes
 your
  dark default theme.
 
  What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
  3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
  saying green is bad is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks
 fairly
  similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how
 E
  looks/functions are happy with.

 didn't i repeat it often enough below?

 PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.

 they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post
 and
 then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that
 response
 is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the
 set of
 screenshots in the article above.

  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 
  wrote:
 
   On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
 jeffhoogl...@linux.com
   said:
  
   i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
   far.
   before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are
 not
   subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of
 the
   audience.
  
   now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
   linux
   theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
   selection
   for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
   isn't an
   accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
   it's
   glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they
 like
   dark
   themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends
 in
   and is
   just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
   much
   less to offer.
  
   now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some
 contrast and
   difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue
 is
   NOT
   an accident:
  
  
  
 http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
   http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
  
  
 http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
   http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
  
  
 http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
   http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
   http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
  
 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Pierre Couderc]

On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com 
 said:


 now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
 difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is NOT
 an accident:


Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
In this case, the black neutral background is cooled by the blue, 
giving a fairly cool environment.
That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more warm yellow, to 
warm the whole.
Another solution could be to keep the blue but to warm the black 
background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a 
warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
This is what I would like to try some day...

--
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Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:22:00 +0200 Martin Koelewijn martinkoelew...@gmail.com
said:

 @raster: I'm curious about the gtkrc you made. The attachment, as usual,
 failed to arrive at the mailing list. Could you paste it somewhere and
 share the link? Thanks.

https://phab.enlightenment.org/file/info/PHID-FILE-dpri745rnyuhghdlljdn/

 M
 
 
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 wrote:
 
  On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
  said:
 
   They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E
  in
   general.
 
  i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:
 
  Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking
  screenshots.
  Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
  helpful.
 
  and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot.
  the
  original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
  clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
  screenshot thread:
 
  Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
  consistency.
 
  Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large,
  and the
  icons are awful.
 
  The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is
  off.
  The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and
  badly
  drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also
  a bit
  off.
 
  in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
  bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.
 
  the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize
  OTHER
  than it's dark and i don't like dark (which was basically one guy) and
  it
  doesn't look flat and modern were about poor mismatching in the ui - the
  red
  glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm
  thanks
  to the different theme.
 
  i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread.
  there
  is a pattern:
 
  1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
  2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or
  then it
  sucks
  3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff
 
  there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in
  those
  threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
  some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.
 
 
 
   That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a
  default
   Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes
  your
   dark default theme.
  
   What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
   3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
   saying green is bad is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks
  fairly
   similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how
  E
   looks/functions are happy with.
 
  didn't i repeat it often enough below?
 
  PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.
 
  they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post
  and
  then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that
  response
  is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the
  set of
  screenshots in the article above.
 
   On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
  
   wrote:
  
On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
  jeffhoogl...@linux.com
said:
   
i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
far.
before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are
  not
subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of
  the
audience.
   
now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
linux
theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
selection
for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
isn't an
accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
it's
glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they
  like
dark
themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends
  in
and is
just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
much
less to offer.
   
now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some
  contrast and
difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue
  is
NOT
an accident:
   
   
   
  http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
   
   
  http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc pie...@couderc.eu said:

 
 On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
  said:
 
 
  now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
  difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
  NOT an accident:
 
 
 Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
 Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
 In this case, the black neutral background is cooled by the blue, 
 giving a fairly cool environment.
 That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more warm yellow, to 
 warm the whole.
 Another solution could be to keep the blue but to warm the black 
 background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a 
 warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
 This is what I would like to try some day...

i like the cool look. it's calm and slick. like wearing a nice dark
grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)

http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg

:)

 --
 HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
 Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
 Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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-- 
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The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Alberto Verdoja]

Hi to all,
I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
mail to a short version of my point of view :D

Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
flame topic on reddit :)

Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
Adwaita (you don't say?) and Light Themes Radiance and Ambiance theme,
from Ubuntu.
I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
Radiance.

SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
As on Black and White and a Lot of Colors
http://avduma.deviantart.com/art/Black-and-White-and-a-lot-of-colors-351791124
, I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings - Looks -
Colors.
I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
SO
On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
Easly, with a GUI.
Unfortunately E-devs have removed Focus options from Color Settings GUI
(please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
changeable only decompiling the theme
BUT
I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
change the theme.
No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
to a color class.
So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
your tasties.

For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
psychology, fashion, de gustibus I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.



If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
If you don't like rounded borders, the murrina shines that Radiance and
Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
If you want square and flat just because now it's modern or fancy
fashion it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and you all
can keep the change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
the flame :) - )
BUT
If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
blue, like Elementary OS, but, for ezample, IT IS POSSIBLE.

So please change the theme to best fit your color. It's all explained on my
deviantArt page here
http://avduma.deviantart.com/#/art/E19-Radiance-Theme-with-a-Lot-of-Colors-451995096?hf=1
or on e17-stuff
http://e17-stuff.org/content/show.php/Radiance...+with+a+Lot+of+Colors?content=165101
and spread the screenshot with the theme with different colors to show that
if you don't 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Pierre Couderc]

On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc pie...@couderc.eu said:

 On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
 said:


 now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
 difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
 NOT an accident:


 Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
 Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some environment.
 In this case, the black neutral background is cooled by the blue,
 giving a fairly cool environment.
 That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more warm yellow, to
 warm the whole.
 Another solution could be to keep the blue but to warm the black
 background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
 warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
 This is what I would like to try some day...
 i like the cool look. it's calm and slick. like wearing a nice dark
 grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)

 http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg

 :)

Oh, I like your image.
But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
The background of this image is not a neutral black!
It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown = 
orange+black).
The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly 
warm atmosphere.
The whole image is gemütlich, attractive' and séduisante.
Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...



--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Boris Faure]

On 14-06-11 14:06, Pierre Couderc wrote:
 
 On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc pie...@couderc.eu said:
 
  On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
  said:
 
 
  now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast 
  and
  difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
  NOT an accident:
 
 
  Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
  Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some 
  environment.
  In this case, the black neutral background is cooled by the blue,
  giving a fairly cool environment.
  That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more warm yellow, to
  warm the whole.
  Another solution could be to keep the blue but to warm the black
  background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
  warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
  This is what I would like to try some day...
  i like the cool look. it's calm and slick. like wearing a nice dark
  grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)
 
  http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg
 
  :)
 
 Oh, I like your image.
 But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
 The background of this image is not a neutral black!
 It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown = 
 orange+black).
 The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
 And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly 
 warm atmosphere.
 The whole image is gemütlich, attractive' and séduisante.
 Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...

Shouldn't a warm wallpaper do it?

-- 
Boris Faure
Pointer Arithmetician
--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Pierre Couderc]

Maybe.
But the idea of default style seems to me sobriety...
It comes without wallpaper.


On 06/11/2014 03:07 PM, Boris Faure wrote:
 On 14-06-11 14:06, Pierre Couderc wrote:
 On 06/11/2014 12:16 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:17:07 +0200 Pierre Couderc pie...@couderc.eu said:

 On 06/11/2014 05:20 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
 said:


 now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast 
 and
 difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
 NOT an accident:


 Well, I am not an artist. Mmm, maybe I am not an artist...
 Anyway, a color alone does not make sense. It is always in some 
 environment.
 In this case, the black neutral background is cooled by the blue,
 giving a fairly cool environment.
 That disturbs me, so I have changed the blue to a more warm yellow, to
 warm the whole.
 Another solution could be to keep the blue but to warm the black
 background (with a touch of orange -complementary of blue -, giving a
 warm black slightly brown ) to equilibrate  the whole.
 This is what I would like to try some day...
 i like the cool look. it's calm and slick. like wearing a nice dark
 grey/black suit with a nice blue shirt and black tie... :)

 http://thesuitsofjamesbond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Charcoal-Windowpane-4.jpg

 :)

 Oh, I like your image.
 But please see as it illustrates so well what I wanted to say :
 The background of this image is not a neutral black!
 It is a very warm black tainted with a warm deep brown (brown =
 orange+black).
 The colour of the face of JB is fairly warm too.
 And so, the blue of the skirt equilibrates and makes vibrate this fairly
 warm atmosphere.
 The whole image is gemütlich, attractive' and séduisante.
 Yes, it is a fine objective to try to reach...
 Shouldn't a warm wallpaper do it?



 --
 HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
 Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
 Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems


 ___
 enlightenment-users mailing list
 enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja a.verd...@gmail.com said:

 Hi to all,
 I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
 at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
 I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
 mail to a short version of my point of view :D
 
 Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
 battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
 theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
 that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
 flame topic on reddit :)
 
 Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
 FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
 When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
 have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
 On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
 A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
 a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
 So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
 themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
 GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
 so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
 GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
 Adwaita (you don't say?) and Light Themes Radiance and Ambiance theme,
 from Ubuntu.
 I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
 create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
 Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
 want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
 on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
 Radiance.
 
 SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
 As on Black and White and a Lot of Colors
 http://avduma.deviantart.com/art/Black-and-White-and-a-lot-of-colors-351791124
 , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings - Looks -
 Colors.
 I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
 is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
 I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
 SO
 On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
 Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
 So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
 reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
 Easly, with a GUI.
 Unfortunately E-devs have removed Focus options from Color Settings GUI
 (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
 changeable only decompiling the theme
 BUT
 I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
 change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
 selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
 If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
 change the theme.
 No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
 to a color class.
 So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
 while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
 http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
 your tasties.
 
 For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
 theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
 color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
 psychology, fashion, de gustibus I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
 about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.
 
 
 
 If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
 change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
 If you don't like rounded borders, the murrina shines that Radiance and
 Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
 If you want square and flat just because now it's modern or fancy
 fashion it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
 something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
 the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and you all
 can keep the change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
 the flame :) - )
 BUT
 If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
 spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
 tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
 a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
 At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
 blue, like Elementary OS, but, for ezample, IT IS POSSIBLE.
 
 So please change the theme to best fit your color. It's all explained on my
 deviantArt page here
 http://avduma.deviantart.com/#/art/E19-Radiance-Theme-with-a-Lot-of-Colors-451995096?hf=1
 or on e17-stuff
 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Steven@e]

happy user here :)

On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja a.verd...@gmail.com said:

 Hi to all,
 I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of view
 at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
 I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of the
 mail to a short version of my point of view :D

 Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons and
 battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of default E
 theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look at
 that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than the
 flame topic on reddit :)

 Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
 FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
 When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications. So I
 have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
 On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant and
 A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't create
 a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
 So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to create E17
 themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
 GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the theme,
 so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available for
 GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep updated:
 Adwaita (you don't say?) and Light Themes Radiance and Ambiance theme,
 from Ubuntu.
 I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so I've
 create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
 Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity, but I
 want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK themes
 on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like more:
 Radiance.

 SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
 As on Black and White and a Lot of Colors
 http://avduma.deviantart.com/art/Black-and-White-and-a-lot-of-colors-351791124
 , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings - Looks -
 Colors.
 I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features and it
 is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
 I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from EDJE.
 SO
 On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
 Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
 So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey or
 reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
 Easly, with a GUI.
 Unfortunately E-devs have removed Focus options from Color Settings GUI
 (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected items is
 changeable only decompiling the theme
 BUT
 I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
 change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
 selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
 If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
 change the theme.
 No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all binded
 to a color class.
 So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for a
 while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
 http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best fit
 your tasties.

 For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and GTK
 theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from the
 color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
 psychology, fashion, de gustibus I remand directly to Jeff and/or Joris
 about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.



 If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I happily
 change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
 If you don't like rounded borders, the murrina shines that Radiance and
 Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
 If you want square and flat just because now it's modern or fancy
 fashion it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to create
 something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2 and
 the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and you all
 can keep the change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0 -sorry for
 the flame :) - )
 BUT
 If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors. I've
 spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and avoid
 tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately E17 had
 a lots of this themes and they all look amateurish / not complete / crappy).
 At the moment I'm not on E, so I can't send you a shot of my theme gray and
 blue, like Elementary OS, but, for ezample, IT IS POSSIBLE.

 So please change the theme to best fit your color. It's all explained on my
 deviantArt page here
 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 02:19:06 +0200 Albi a.verd...@gmail.com said:

i don't remember it - what did it do?

 There was a color class named focus that is also present on the color
 dialog and on e19 is not present anymore.
 
 On 12 giugno 2014 00:44:20 CEST, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 13:36:24 +0200 Alberto Verdoja
 a.verd...@gmail.com said:
 
  Hi to all,
  I have created the E19 Theme Radiance and I hope to give my point of
 view
  at this useful discussion and let you explain the goal of my theme.
  I'm sorry if the mail is long, please read all or jump on the end of
 the
  mail to a short version of my point of view :D
  
  Thanks for all your feedback, there's some useful tips about icons
 and
  battery gadget (pretty sure battery gadget uses the same codes of
 default E
  theme cause I don't have a laptop and I can't test it) and I'll look
 at
  that when I have more free time. This thread is much more useful than
 the
  flame topic on reddit :)
  
  Here's the goals of what is my Radiance theme.
  FIRST GOAL: UNIFIED LOOK
  When I use a DE I need that the theme is unique for all applications.
 So I
  have to create a theme that matches well with a GTK themes.
  On the past I've ported for GTK2 some E17 themes (blingbling, Gant
 and
  A-lots of A-Agust's A-themes), but with the release of GTK3 I can't
 create
  a GTK2 and a GTK3 theme both.
  So while I don't want to port E17 Theme to GTK3, I've decided to
 create E17
  themes that cames from the design of GTK3.
  GTK3, like E, every update can screw a little (or a big) part of the
 theme,
  so keep it mainteined it's a big job, if you noticed themes available
 for
  GTK3 soon or later go old. There's a couple of theme that are keep
 updated:
  Adwaita (you don't say?) and Light Themes Radiance and Ambiance
 theme,
  from Ubuntu.
  I preferer between Radiance, Ambiance and Adwaita the first one, so
 I've
  create a theme that matches well with Radiance.
  Yes. E with Radiance looks like Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu or Unity,
 but I
  want that E applications look like GTK's ones and there's a few GTK
 themes
  on the place that are updated. So I choose the theme that I like
 more:
  Radiance.
  
  SECOND GOAL: ...A LOT OF COLORS
  As on Black and White and a Lot of Colors
 
 http://avduma.deviantart.com/art/Black-and-White-and-a-lot-of-colors-351791124
  , I love the possibility E gives to change colors with Settings -
 Looks -
  Colors.
  I've suggested the creator of relighted theme to use this features
 and it
  is born Relightable and I've used the same idea also on Radiance.
  I've invented nothing new 'cause color classes is a cool options from
 EDJE.
  SO
  On Radiance Theme you can edit ALL the colors.
  Don't you like Radiance Color Scheme? Change it!
  So if you feel purply one day, change your color, if you feel bluey
 or
  reddy or yellowy, you can change color scheme.
  Easly, with a GUI.
  Unfortunately E-devs have removed Focus options from Color Settings
 GUI
  (please readd the options! :D ) and the Ubuntu Orange of selected
 items is
  changeable only decompiling the theme
  BUT
  I've created a file named radconf that with #define options allows to
  change color scheme like in old GNOME 2 way: background, foreground,
  selected background, selected foreground, etc etc.
  If you want to change more deeply, you can see on color_class.edc and
  change the theme.
  No digging on edc files and search the correct part because it's all
 binded
  to a color class.
  So if you want to use another GTK theme (I've used ZonColor Green for
 a
  while with my Radiance Theme and it is looking good:
  http://imgur.com/DZdz041.png ) you have three different way to best
 fit
  your tasties.
  
  For Bodhi Linux I've started to edit the color scheme of my theme and
 GTK
  theme to something that takes orange and green color directly from
 the
  color of the Bodhi Linux CSS site. All the question about colors
  psychology, fashion, de gustibus I remand directly to Jeff and/or
 Joris
  about the scheme, I've followed their scheme.
  
  
  
  If you don't like some gadgets or modules or pixmap I've choose, I
 happily
  change to best fit user interfaces guidelines or tasties.
  If you don't like rounded borders, the murrina shines that Radiance
 and
  Ubuntu themes have, I understand your thoughts.
  If you want square and flat just because now it's modern or fancy
  fashion it is your choiche, I respect but I don't have plan to
 create
  something like this becuase I like murrina shine, the good old GTK 2
 and
  the cube, flames and other RAM warping effects of compiz :) (and you
 all
  can keep the change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0
 -sorry for
  the flame :) - )
  BUT
  If you don't like Color Scheme, please consider to change the colors.
 I've
  spend a lot of time using white pixmap to allows this feature and
 avoid
  tons of themes with same pixmap but different colors (unfortunately
 E17 had
  

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[David Seikel]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:

 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
 on this?
 
 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Tell the people that think it looks old that they are fashion nazis,
and should create their own theme.  Black is finally the new black.  B-)

-- 
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coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Alan McKinnon]

On 10/06/2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?
 
 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
 


Jeff,


I feel the same way as those posters, just without the violence, insults
and lets-rip-Jeff-a-new-one-coz-we-can attitude :-)

Truth be told, most enlightenment themes out there are butt-ugly and
amateurish. But enlightenment is a tool, it paints on the canvas, and
it's very good at doing that. It can also only paint what the theme
tells it to paint.

Icons are the thing that does stand out the most - enlightenment's
internal built-in icons are nice, but they are also very different from
all the other application icons the user will have, it leads to an
inconsistent look. I've learned to live with it, but really slick icons
would be nice.

GUI design is hard, really hard, and takes a fanatical attention to
detail. I watch the web designers at work, sometimes they obsess about
an element's position to *one* pixel! It does show in the results though.

I think your main problem is that like a code lead, you can only work
with the submissions you get and what you write yourself. You only get
to work with themes that people submit (that one fellow's comment that
you are the team lead and therefore is about as unhelpful as it
gets), and good themes take a good artist. I'm no artist :-)

I think if you want to address the uglyness of some themes, you'd need
to get decent feedback from real artists who can point out aesthetic
flaws in a constructive way. Random arb users on reddit is not where you
will get that.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com


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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[William]

First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main 
workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I 
have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I 
would not want to use another system.

The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is 
ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem 
is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to 
guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it 
after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency 
to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups 
universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the 
aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts 
- how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the 
most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the 
ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely 
the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of 
course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality 
exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings 
to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment 
that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found 
anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to 
entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks, 
browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is 
approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like 
trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the 
best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never 
explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what 
they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers 
and long time users.

I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a 
secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular 
Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly 
refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to 
utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid 
version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do 
not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would 
double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly, 
super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues 
to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against 
the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite 
of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the 
distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming 
tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use 
Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate 
descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I 
think is most poignant:


This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I 
was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my 
case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does 
with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS 
was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about 
it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend 
it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do. 
Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general 
to anyone under any circumstances.

You asked,

William

On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?

 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/



--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Ondřej Svoboda]

Jeff,

you are right that those guys do not really say anything helpful. I am 
using the default theme and I find it both beautiful and usable, as well 
as Enlightenment as a whole. It is very carefully engineered and not 
getting in the way.

To me, the theme is classic, yet very polished, reminding me of 90's, 
in a good way. Not needlessly big, as elsewhere. I am not a designer but 
I do not see a reason for everything becoming flat or bright; the look 
is pretty this way, balanced.

I might point out though some little flaws that I did not have time to 
report yet:

- The battery meter is not very readable to me (with 1.0 scaling). On 
hover, the displayed numbers are WHITE, too small and positioned very 
close to the reflection on the battery. I cannot deduce if the second 
line is an estimation of time remaining. A little pop-up (after a click, 
like with a calendar?) would do a better job, optionally. (Some 
minimalist guys might want to stick to the two lines being displayed 
over the battery icon.)

- Additionally, I believe it should distinguish the two states of 
running on A/C vs. running on battery more sharply, even when the 
battery is fully charged. The + sign when charging is too little. A 
charging connector or another indication should be displayed when fully 
charged and running on A/C.

- Third, I get the battery too low message too soon (at about 50% when 
there is plenty of energy left)

I will post these as bugs as soon as I have time to do so.

Thank you and the team for the lot of work you have put into Enlightenment!
Ondra Svoboda

On 10.6.2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?

 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/



--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Martin Koelewijn]

Ugly: matter of taste. I've always liked the default themes a lot, and
some others in the old pre-E17 days. The color variations on the old
bw theme not so much. Inconsistency with gtk themes is the problem for
me. It's very hard to find a good dark gtk theme, that doesn't mess up
web browsing in firefox for example or libre-office. Though probably
both programs are to blame as well.

Awful: well, maybe. I understand the 'gui principle': customize
everything with gui. But it's not always obvious. I don't understand
how the composite settings work. I only partly understand how the
evrything module settings work. I don't understand how the display
settings work (using extra monitors and stuff; on my pc I let the
nvidia drivers care, but on my laptop with intel drivers it's not
working well). Config files sometimes are easier. I have absolutely no
idea how phab(ricator) works. There is no users forum (besides nowadays
the bodhi forums) and I am banned from #e (probably with good reason,
but I have no idea why, maybe my irc client went berserk when I was
afk). Anyway: support isn't always easy to get.

All in all, I'm fixed on e because performance is good and I like most
of the underlying principles. It has no weird daemons, no bloat. There
are creative people behind it who add new stuff to the window
managers / desktop environments scene (think default themes, everything
module, terminology). I know my around it now and it's just more than
fine for me.

M



On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500
Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:

 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
 on this?
 
 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
 


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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira]

2014-06-10 11:38 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com:

 Thoughts on
 this?


It's a matter of taste.

Maybe if developers followed this user's advices, we'd have even more
hateful comments on this same thread.

My preferred E theme was the grunge theme, but E breaks compat with themes
too often and I think this is the reason why people are discouraged to
create E themes.


-- 
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
https://about.me/vinipsmaker
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Alan McKinnon]

On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a 
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular 
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly 
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to 
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid 
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do 
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.


It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
default KDE.

It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
.e/e/ config files

With a basic stupid version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
still there, just not exposed

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com


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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[William]

On 06/10/2014 11:58 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.

 It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
 possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
 and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
 default KDE.

 It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
 .e/e/ config files

 With a basic stupid version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
 still there, just not exposed

I Don't disagree. Jeff has done a lot to simplify much about 
Enlightenment. In fact, I was just about to write about that. I 
especially like how easy breezy keeping the system up to date is. I also 
think it's great how I just type sudo apt-get install bodhi-desktop on 
a number of distros and bam! there it is as a DE choice at logon. That 
alone offers more incentive to give it a try since people can install in 
their favorite Ubuntu derivative rather than multi-boot just to try it.

And so I was about to write:

Jeff,

I will say that your work has gone a long way towards easing the 
situation across the board. So I pose the question to you: You being the 
one that brought this problem up, what more do you think you can do to 
make things better? Personally I think pushing forward with aesthetics 
is the way to go. Equally important, the settings panel needs two modes 
of operation that can be toggled between: basic and advanced. Advanced 
would be what the default as it is now, basic would limit presented 
options and would be the new default view. Picking and choosing what 
goes in what category could be tricky to a point. For example, a lot of 
stuff under Windows could be hidden by default, with defaults already 
chosen that mirror behaviors found in more popular distros. Also, I 
don't know if the person working on the Radiance theme is an official 
team member, but they were doing a fantastic job until 2 updates ago 
when it suddenly turned ugly. Perhaps you need to expand your core dev 
team to focus on the very artistic problems you mentioned?






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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

everybody know it is ugly :-D what's the news?

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?

 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

 --
 ~Jeff Hoogland http://jeffhoogland.com/
 Thoughts on Technology http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/, Tech Blog
 Bodhi Linux http://bodhilinux.com/, Enlightenment for your Desktop
 --
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Yomi Ogunwumi]

I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
 approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
 trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
 best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
 explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
 they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
 and long time users.

 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
 double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
 super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
 to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
 the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
 of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
 distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
 tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
 Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
 descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
 think is most poignant:


 This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
 was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
 case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
 with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
 was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
 it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
 it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
 Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
 to anyone under any circumstances.

 You asked,

 William

 On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
  Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
  this?
 
  Recent example -
 
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/
 



 --
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 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
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 Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[mk]

Jeff,

Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I suspect 
you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that Bodhi is an 
ubuntu derivative. 

Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic illiterate.

Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow 
added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors are 
extremely disturbing psychologically speaking. 

Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.

http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
 approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
 trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
 best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
 explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
 they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
 and long time users.

 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
 double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
 super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
 to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
 the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
 of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
 distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
 tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
 Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
 descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
 think is most poignant:


 This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
 was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
 case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
 with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
 was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
 it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
 it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
 Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
 to anyone under any circumstances.

 You asked,

 William

 On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
  Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
  this?
 
  

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Fan Cris]

people complain anyway. if is new then the old was better if keep the way
is not modern/ugly/...
look at firefox/opera/kde/gnome/...
full with heaters :)
i dont like your theme but im sure others will like it, keep your way :)



On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:31 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.


 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
  utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
  version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
  not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
  double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
  super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
  to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
  the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
  of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
  distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
  tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
  Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
  descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
  think is most poignant:
 
 
  This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
  was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
  case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
  with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
  was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
  it, I would still love it just as much. Although 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Christopher Barry]

Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
Itten, like 'elements of color'.
On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.


 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
  utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
  version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
  not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
  double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
  super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
  to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
  the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
  of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
  distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
  tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
  Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
  descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
  think is most poignant:
 
 
  This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
  was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
  case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
  with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
  was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
  it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
  it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
  Much the same, I never ever recommend 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Jeff Hoogland]

Chris,

These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
themes out there.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry 
christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
 Itten, like 'elements of color'.
 On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

  Jeff,
 
  Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
  suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
  Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
 
  Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
  illiterate.
 
  Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
  yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
  colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
 
  Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
 
 
 
 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
 
 
 
 
  On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
  point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
 
  I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
 
  1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
  -*Yomi*
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
   workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
   have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
   would not want to use another system.
  
   The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
   ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
   is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
   guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
   after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
 tendency
   to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
   universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
  
   What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
 the
   aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
   - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
   most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
   ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
   the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
   course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
   exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
 settings
   to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
 Enlightenment
   that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
   anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
   entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
   browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
 is
   approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
   trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
   best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
   explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
   they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
   and long time users.
  
   I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
   secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
   Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
   refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
   utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
   version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I
 do
   not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
   double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY*
 ugly,
   super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
   to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
   the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar
 opposite
   of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
   distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the
 upcoming
   tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
   Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
   descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and
 I
   think is most poignant:
  
  
   This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
   was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in
 my
   case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
   with others, and I don't mind 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Jeff Hoogland]

It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.

I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
feedback that isn't this sucks to pass onto the folks working hard on
themes.

A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
E/devote time to themeing.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:27 PM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jeff,

 mk is actually on to something. I grew up with a dad who was a research
 and development chemist. He specialized in... color. As a conseqence I
 heard a lot about it and got roped into doing a couple science fairs
 relating to the subject of color. As ironic as it is, I am an unusual
 individual as I quite literally do not understand the concept of
 favorite color I have no preference for any one over the other, which
 is why (as I stated earlier) really don't care about aesthetics at all.
 Apparently this is uncommon and puts me in a small statistical minority.
 Google psychology of color or color psychology to get an idea of how
 color usage affects people. From what the world has to say about it,
 it's important enough to make a difference. Although from what I
 understand there is a difference in the way colors are used in an
 interactive, changing interface as opposed to a static wall or business
 card or some such thing.


 On 06/10/2014 02:31 PM, mk wrote:
  Jeff,
 
  Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
 
  Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.
 
  Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
 
  Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
 
 
 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
 
 
 
 
  On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
  point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
 
  I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
 
  1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
  -*Yomi*
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
  

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira]

2014-06-10 18:33 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com:

 It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
 abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
 for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.


What about using Tango[1]-themed icons?

And the Solarized[2] colorscheme is getting popular among developers.


[1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/
[2] http://ethanschoonover.com/solarized


-- 
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
https://about.me/vinipsmaker
--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[meine]

 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?

lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/stupid car for the rest of your life if you don't 
want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!

the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme or 
get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, without 
loss of data or productivity.

but people are just complaining and walking away from their own responsibility 
to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and get something 
better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the window controls 
placed counter intuitively.

IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but do 
lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
Choice.

in the end they will catch it ;-)

-- 
//meine

--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[William]

While I admit that I never installed any, all of the e17 themes strike 
me as highly individualistic, rather than something I would associate 
with mass appeal.

 It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
 abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
 for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.

 I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
 feedback that isn't this sucks to pass onto the folks working hard on
 themes.

 A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
 everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
 E/devote time to themeing.
That's just it though, you are dealing with something that is abstract, 
and I think this feedback has been reasonable. If there is someone out 
there that can give you precise color codes and tell you just how to 
apply them, they should probably be designing the theme in the first 
place. I really hate to suggest this, but if the people designing themes 
can't pull this off, maybe the wrong people are designing themes - 
obviously the other DEs are pulling it off or we would not be having 
this conversation. Although I do not know how to go about recruiting new 
talent.

Perhaps you will consider the following more constructive: the way other 
DE's seem to do this is by developing, posting, and getting feedback on 
mock ups before committing to a design. This happens in a 
wash-rinse-repeat fashion. They also work within more restrictive and 
well established design parameters. Perhaps the theme API is too 
flexible for its own good.

On 06/10/2014 04:15 PM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
 Chris,

 These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
 themes out there.


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry 
 christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
 Itten, like 'elements of color'.
 On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.



 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html



 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
 tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
 the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
 settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
 Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
 is
 approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
 trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
 best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
 explored. To this day, there are 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[William]

 the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
 window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
 or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
 without loss of data or productivity.
This is the sort of entrenched Open Source cultural bias that, until 
recently, has held Linux back. Just because you find distro hopping a 
beautiful thing, does not mean the majority of modern regular users 
do. Just because you come from a culture where you can break out the 
source code, make changes and recompile at no cost, without loss of 
data or productivity. does not mean that regular users have the time 
to put up with that, the skills to do it, or even have the ability to 
develop the skills to do it. Saying that you need to learn to code to 
use Linux is one of the oldest and most damaging clichés surrounding 
Linux. In the world of modern Linux, we have a massive influx of users 
from Windows and OS X who just want something that works and is 
painfully simple to use with a redundant interface. Have you ever 
noticed that themes for the likes of Mint and elementary OS don't 
actually change much of anything but a few colors and icon sets?

 but do lusers know?
Seriously? is this 1996?

 it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of Choice.
I hate to break it to you, but it is the other way around. Linux needs 
to adapt to users, not the other way around. The new, and most important 
in the history of Linux, population of Linux users want mono-design. 
They do not want or will they be hackers.

On 06/10/2014 04:46 PM, meine wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?
 lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
 Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/stupid car for the rest of your life if you don't 
 want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!

 the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
 window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
 or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
 without loss of data or productivity.

 but people are just complaining and walking away from their own 
 responsibility to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and 
 get something better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the 
 window controls placed counter intuitively.

 IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
 Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but 
 do lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
 Choice.

 in the end they will catch it ;-)



--
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions
Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing  Easy Data Exploration
http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com said:

i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so far.
before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
audience.

now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi linux
theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color selection
for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme isn't an
accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly it's
glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like dark
themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in and is
just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have much
less to offer.

now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is NOT
an accident:

http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/

(i can continue finding references).

notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in preferences
of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and tranquility
and can improve productivity.

these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less power
on oled panels. :)

now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked the
same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch. you're
just the same!. they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use and
get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.

so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and is
acceptable for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't really
like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY like a
green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go ewww. uglier ubuntu.. it has no
character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific feedback,
and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and popularity
and then make a good choice. :)

the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend well
with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.

for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept - squareness. i
made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't stand out
glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can match.
back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some gradients. yes
it's old fashioned. the bitchers you see want something that looks just like
the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they want it
because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change again.
i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and buys a new
pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's the in thing this season, but
reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults down on you
unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is cool
today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui precedent
that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON to be
CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text in it. people
have no idea that they can CLICK that. to them it is a passive label. i stopped
listening to fashion followers long ago, because all you end up with is a
continual chasing of the latest trend. reality is that everyone has different
tastes and THAT is what themes are for. we don't really have the manpower to do
more than a single well polished theme. we just don't have artists. even the
default theme is lacking. it lacks many icons it should have. the icons should
be consistent and match the theme, but there just hasn't been time to work on
it all. likely there never will be.

yes - the icons in the default theme need work. now for the bodhi theme. take a
look at the icons in your screenshot, the i icon in the about windows has a
pure green that kind of clashes with the green int he background. some icons -
like the 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[Jeff Hoogland]

They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E in
general.

That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a default
Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes your
dark default theme.

What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
saying green is bad is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks fairly
similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how E
looks/functions are happy with.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
wrote:

 On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
 said:

 i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
 far.
 before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
 subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
 audience.

 now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
 linux
 theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
 selection
 for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
 isn't an
 accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
 it's
 glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like
 dark
 themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in
 and is
 just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
 much
 less to offer.

 now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
 difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
 NOT
 an accident:


 http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
 http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html

 http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
 http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/

 http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
 http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
 http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
 http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/

 (i can continue finding references).

 notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in
 preferences
 of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
 authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and
 tranquility
 and can improve productivity.

 these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less
 power
 on oled panels. :)

 now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked
 the
 same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch.
 you're
 just the same!. they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use
 and
 get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.

 so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and
 is
 acceptable for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't
 really
 like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY
 like a
 green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go ewww. uglier ubuntu.. it
 has no
 character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
 existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific
 feedback,
 and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and
 popularity
 and then make a good choice. :)

 the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend
 well
 with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
 character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.

 for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept -
 squareness. i
 made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't
 stand out
 glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can
 match.
 back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some gradients.
 yes
 it's old fashioned. the bitchers you see want something that looks just
 like
 the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they
 want it
 because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change
 again.
 i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and buys
 a new
 pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's the in thing this season, but
 reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults down
 on you
 unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is
 cool
 today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui
 precedent
 that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON to be
 CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text in it.
 people
 have no idea that they can CLICK that. to them it is a passive 

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:22:08 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com said:

 They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E in
 general.

i read the thread - the reddit one, and they are. when they are specific:

Looks like a baby took a shit on your screen as you were taking screenshots.
Suggestion, use less baby shit green. I hope you find this new information
helpful.

and they continue down that thread. green in the bodhi theme screenshot. the
original comment from bitchessuck was ambiguous but during that thead he
clearly seems to be talking of the bodhi theme. more comments on the bodhi
screenshot thread:

Some things are subjective, but others aren't. Consider color schemes or
consistency.

Yeah, but only slightly I should also mention the fonts are too large, and the
icons are awful.

The icon size isn't the problem, although the size of one of the icons is off.
The icons have wildly different style, the power icon is just ugly and badly
drawn, and the meaning of those icons is hard to guess. Alignment is also a bit
off.

in fact the majority of comments on the reddit thread are clearly about the
bodhi theme thread, with others ambiguous.

the webupd8 one i quoted below - the things people specifically criticize OTHER
than it's dark and i don't like dark (which was basically one guy) and it
doesn't look flat and modern were about poor mismatching in the ui - the red
glossy class shiny power button for example. the awful gradients in efm thanks
to the different theme.

i took the time out to read the entire reddit thread and webupd8 thread. there
is a pattern:

1. people don't like the half-arsed themes with inconsistency.
2. there are a bunch of people who think it must be modern and flat or then it
sucks
3. there are some people who don't like dark stuff

there are ALSO people who indicate they LIKE the non-flat look also in those
threads. there are people who indicate they LIKE the dark. some like these,
some don't, but i saw no one champion inconsistent looks.



 That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a default
 Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes your
 dark default theme.
 
 What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
 3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
 saying green is bad is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks fairly
 similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how E
 looks/functions are happy with.

didn't i repeat it often enough below?

PEOPLE JUDGE YOU ON YOUR SCREENSHOTS.

they don't see the other colors - they see the one image on that blog post and
then make their decision. it's not a copy out. you asked what all that response
is about - it is about the screenshot on your blog. webup8 is about the set of
screenshots in the article above.

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 wrote:
 
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
  said:
 
  i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
  far.
  before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
  subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
  audience.
 
  now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
  linux
  theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
  selection
  for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
  isn't an
  accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
  it's
  glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like
  dark
  themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in
  and is
  just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
  much
  less to offer.
 
  now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
  difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
  NOT
  an accident:
 
 
  http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
  http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
 
  http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
  http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
 
  http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
  http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
  http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
  http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/
 
  (i can continue finding references).
 
  notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in
  preferences
  of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
  authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and
  tranquility
  and can improve productivity.
 
  these choices are far from being an