Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution (trunks and leaves)
Solar panels on my roof reduce my heating load a significant amount. Good design of homes and home sites make a difference. Part of solarization will be automatic attention to such things. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think that the grid's days are numbered. No, not that it'll go away entirely -- at least, not for a lifetime or more. Exactly the opposite. First, back east here, 90% of homes cannot do solar because of shade. And the value of shade in the summer lowering the cost of AC is almost as valuable as solar panels on that same area. No, the grid will always be here, its just that its funciton will evolve to meet the two-way distribution of power everywhere. Nothing can beat the value of moving power around over the cost of storing it (generally) though on site storage for PEAK instantaneous currents will be needed. This is several minutes of capacity not whole days of storage. The savings will come in having to use less copper over long distances. The grid is currently built like a tree with a huge massive trunk thinning out to the leaves. The future grid will be more like English Ivy growing everywhere supporting more leaves than a tree but with no vine larger that a pencil. Bob, Wb4aPR But, rather, that, in ten to twenty years, people will be as comfortable not having a grid connection as they are today not having a landline telephone. Right now, we're about where we were when the Motorola brick mobile phone came out...a few people had already had ludicrously expensive car phones, and the brick was only portable in the same sense that a Mac Classic was...but, if circumstances worked out and you had the money, you could do away with an ATT phone entirely -- even if not many actually did unless they were far enough from civilization that ATT wouldn't run a line out to you. Today, of course, even schoolchildren have their own smartphones, and most Millennials can't imagine why they'd possibly want a landline. For that matter, Millennials don't even use voicemail or email -- mostly just text and chat, and not even that much voice calling. If the power companies want to prolong their relevance and position themselves as best as possible for a post-grid world, they're going to have to lead the way on things like V2G. A great way to start would be subsidies for EVs in exchange for V2G rights. They could do the same with plain old fixed battery banks. The power company could retain ownership of the batteries in exchange for reduced rates and a guarantee of uninterrupted service in the case of an outage. Or, if you want to own your batteries yourself, the utility could provide a smart meter that advertised both the amount they're going to charge you for usage and how much they're willing to pay for backfeed, and you can provide similar information to the meter. Program your local controller with variables such as the current charge in your batteries and your anticipated usage, and it adjusts the prices it advertises accordingly. You naturally wind up buying power when cheap and selling it when expensive, and the ut ility does likewise, nicely leveling out both grid load and electricity prices at the same time. Instead, of course, the utilities are dead set against change...just like the landline phone companies that fought number portability, the utilities are determined to penalize those who fail to use electricity in the way the utilities are used to. Solar producers, whom they should see as their best customers, are their prime target...which just hastens the demise of the grid. Just as people would rather put up with the hassle of getting a new number than continue to do business with a company that would be dickish about letting them leave, so, too, are people going to prefer the expense and initial inconvenience of going to an off-grid battery solution to dealing with Ma Bell in an electrician's uniform. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150108/408a86 bd/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Not everyone has a suburban ranch home with 2000 sq ft of roof. Many urban dwellers live in apartments with a tiny apportioned amount of roof space. Others have used the roof for other purposes - such as south facing clerestorey windows or a roof garden. Others may have gables with roofs facing east or west. Many don't have a garage with a separate roof. Others live in northern climates where the PV panels will be covered with snow for a significant part of the year. Others have trees or other landscape situations that block the sun for part of the day. The trees may not be on your property, so you can't just cut them all down. Plus, they shade the house in the summer, which is a big advantage for air conditioning. Others are in neighborhoods with covenants or zoning or just angry neighbors that prohibit ugly PV arrays. Then there are legal complications. Where I live, my local utility wants to monopolize solar, so all the state and local credits must come through them. They won't approve PV for my house, because the roof is shaded by trees for part of the day. Without the credits, the cost is much higher. Without their approval, they won't permit PV power (I'd have to go guerrilla and do it without telling them). -- Ingenuity gets you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no ingenuity. -- Terry Pratchett -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
I'm totally with you. Build what's practical. My point was that the grid is here to stay for a long time. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 09-Jan-15 1:22:12 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution I don't have that much unshaded roof either, but it is still worth having the PV. I have a useful PV array at my home but I need a good bit more to power automobiles. However, I don't care if the utilities start using major PV and putting it on the grid. To me the grid is a good thing. I am not flush enough to build the power generation and storage to cover all my needs. Part of me wants to be childishly pissed at Duke Progress and tell them to stick it somewhere dark, but my inner parent knows I need what they offer. A far more useful scenario is for me to not commute so dang far. Then I can run a light EV even with my smallish system. Back to the point that many homes are unsuitable for PV (a truism). Each home need not support PV for this to work. I think it is reasonable to consider solar micro grids for communities - where the individual homes are shaded or too small. There is a whole lot of sunlight out there, that is why it makes some much sense to start using more of it. There is an enormous amount of abandoned or unused acreage in Raleigh near where I live. As for storage, there are other options than batteries. I hate to mention here, the dreaded hydrogen storage cell - but it is just a tank. There is a good case that can be made for using hydrogen as an analog to pump storage for renewably sourced energy - energy that is inconsistent in production (wind and sun). As inefficient as electrolysis and fuel cells may be for transportation use, the numbers look much better for large scale storage compared to batteries. I think the grid is our friend and this is one way it pays off. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not everyone has a suburban ranch home with 2000 sq ft of roof. Many urban dwellers live in apartments with a tiny apportioned amount of roof space. Others have used the roof for other purposes - such as south facing clerestorey windows or a roof garden. Others may have gables with roofs facing east or west. Many don't have a garage with a separate roof. In my case, there's no way I can get enough panels to go off the grid with today's technology. The grid is here to stay for the indefinite future. Peri -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? Dalai Lama Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150109/6038fc52/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Yes, I would gladly participate also. As Cor said, it is mainly short bursts of power not adding up to much energy per vehicle. As long as I can set a don't go below SoC on the vehicle computer it would be fine. In fact it would be an incentive to me when considering which manufactured ev to purchase. It would have to have this feature. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-Demand-Response-backdoor-solution-tp4673371p4673391.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
On Jan 9, 2015, at 8:29 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm no expert, but I suppose it might come to pass if PV efficiency jumps and cost tumbles, PV efficiency is already plenty. The insolation on the average single-family home's roof at today's efficiency is virtually always some multiple, generally some very significant multiple, of the home's electricity use. And said multiple is again virtually always more than adequate to charge a vehicle. And materials are and for some time have been the cheapest component of a PV installation. What costs all the money is first and foremost the labor; qualified electricians aren't cheap, especially those who both have experience with high voltage DC and are competent roofers. And, many places, the legal paperwork -- all the permits and inspections and utility company writeoffs and what-not -- winds up costing more than the bill of materials. The key ingredients we really need are twofold: solar roofing installations that can take the place of and be installed by today's low-skill roofing laborers (perhaps with an electrician just for the final run from the roof to the breaker box) and less-expensive battery technology. The former exists in various prototypes that keep getting mentioned in press releases, and the latter is something well known to the EV crowd. Aargh, no clean underwear, and I can't do laundry because we're at 7% and I still have to charge the car. I wonder if the car has enough charge left for a trip to the store to buy some. That just means the system is under-sized. In such a case, either you should have spent more for a bigger system, or you knew what you were getting into and therefore budget your energy use accordingly. Low income households already face similar problems...do I pay the electric bill with the last $50 remaining on this credit card's limit, or do I use the money to buy groceries for the kids? Sorry, boss, I can't come in to work until this afternoon. Joe ran the house flat with his welder last night, and I won't have enough juice to charge my car until the sun comes up. If Joe's a contractor, he should be showing up with his own power supply (such as one of the many industrial EVs we've seen Bruce mention with their own power plugs) to run the welder in this future -- or, otherwise, first making sure that the site he's visiting has the spare capacity to power the welder. And if Joe lives in the home, it's his own damned fault. Also, the cost of storage (lithium battery? what?) It's a big question today, but I suspect we'll have a clear winner in the next several years at the most. Nickel-iron batteries live longer than people but cost more than any other type of battery. Lead acids are pretty cheap but die after a few years and cost significantly more over a lifetime. But there may well be a market in EV batteries old enough to be less than optimal for vehicular use but still with plenty left in them for an off-grid system. I could see leasing / renting of battery systems becoming popular, with the company that owns the batteries responsible for ensuring a minimum kWh capacity of the pack in exchange for whatever fees they charge, similar to what we've speculated Tesla might offer with their car battery swaps. would have to decline by, oh, I dunno, say, 90%? Nowhere near as much. In many parts of the country, the payback time for a complete off-grid solution is better than the payback time for money market funds and other financial instruments. That is, if you're invested in the stock market or especially your bank, you'll be wealthier at the end of a decade or three if you pull the money out and put it into an off-grid system. But that requires a significant amount (to most people) of available capital. But it also means that a business -- such as Solar City -- can afford to invest its own capital (or borrowed funds) to install such a system and become an ad-hoc utility and still make a marginal profit. That's with today's technology...and it's only getting better. I have no idea whether such a quantum leap in PV and energy storage tech is on the horizon. Absent one, though, I suspect your estimate of ten to twenty years is probably a bit optimistic. But that's just it. It's doable _and_economical_ today, if you have the capital to invest. No more revolutionary breakthroughs are required to bring it to the masses; only gradual refinements of the types we regularly see and expect, perhaps coupled with some entrepreneurial innovation. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150109/52f1e68d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE:
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
On 8 Jan 2015 at 20:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: I think that the grid's days are numbered. ... Right now, we're about where we were when the Motorola brick mobile phone came out.. This is an interesting and rather heady notion. How cool would that be, doing to the power company what we can now do to filling stations I'm no expert, but I suppose it might come to pass if PV efficiency jumps and cost tumbles, the way the utility and cost of mobile phones did between 2000 and 2015. I think that most folks, certainly here in the US, are a long way from ready to accept the energy austerity that now comes with standalone PV. They're addicted to the limitless supply of cheap energy they get with the grid (and even where rates are high, it's pretty darn cheap for what you get). I can hear it now. Aargh, no clean underwear, and I can't do laundry because we're at 7% and I still have to charge the car. I wonder if the car has enough charge left for a trip to the store to buy some. Sorry, boss, I can't come in to work until this afternoon. Joe ran the house flat with his welder last night, and I won't have enough juice to charge my car until the sun comes up. Uh-uh. Not gonna fly. PVs will have to get a lot smaller and cheaper, and have way, way more output than they now do. Also, the cost of storage (lithium battery? what?) would have to decline by, oh, I dunno, say, 90%? I have no idea whether such a quantum leap in PV and energy storage tech is on the horizon. Absent one, though, I suspect your estimate of ten to twenty years is probably a bit optimistic. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
On Jan 9, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I heard Elon Musk claim that you could provide all the current global power use with 100 square miles of PV. A friend and I roughed that out and he is not far off (there are a lot of assumptions you can make to vary it one way or another). But, the point is clear enough - a whole lot of energy lands on the earth from the sun. You can barely see 100 m^2 from orbit. Musk is absolutely right. I did a similar calculation a year or three ago. The _residential_ rooftop surface area in the US alone is enough, at the efficiencies of the panels you can buy at your local home improvement store, to meet all the energy needs of the entire planet. (Roughly.) And, obviously, we wouldn't need to provide power for everybody else, which means we've got the potential for an absolutely embarrassing surplus -- and so does everybody else. Long before we have to even hint at thinking about putting panels on commercial buildings and parking lots -- let alone sensitive wilderness areas. Even with all the high-density housing and the shade trees and skylights and what-not. You might not be in a position to generate your own electricity, just as you might not be in a position to ditch the landline and go cellular-only or ditch the ICE vehicle and only drive an EV. But there're also lots and lots and lots and lots of people who can trivially generate ten times what they need, if money were no object and there were some incentive for them to do so. Those who want solid calculations backed with hard figures can find them here: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/12/wind-fights-solar/ Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150109/4584d221/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
On Jan 9, 2015, at 1:54 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not everyone has [...] Of course not. Just as EVs aren't suitable for everybody, either. But exceptions, even if numerous, don't invalidate the usage for huge swaths of the population. Obviously, if you live in a 20-story apartment complex in Manhattan that's in year-round constant shade from the surrounding 50-story office buildings, you're not going to be any kind of a solar producer. Similarly, if you're trying to make it through the winter at McMurdo Base. But the overwhelming majority of residents in the Sun Belt have far more rooftop area than they need. If your state borders a state that borders Mexico or the Gulf, it's extremely likely (but, of course, not guaranteed) that all you need to go off the grid is a capital investment. Again, it's a similar story for EVs. The list of people who shouldn't even be thinking of buying an EV is practically endless. But that still doesn't change the fact that the majority of commuters would be better off driving an EV. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150109/8532c042/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
The insolation on the average single-family home's roof at today's efficiency is virtually always some multiple, generally some very significant multiple, of the home's electricity use. I do solar thermal testing. You can use 1000W/m^2 as a useful number for estimation. I have seen 1300W/m^2 on a very dry winter day (North Carolina), and 1100 -1200 W/m^2 is just normal clear day irradiation (insolation is sort of out of fashion as it is confused with insulation). I heard Elon Musk claim that you could provide all the current global power use with 100 square miles of PV. A friend and I roughed that out and he is not far off (there are a lot of assumptions you can make to vary it one way or another). But, the point is clear enough - a whole lot of energy lands on the earth from the sun. You can barely see 100 m^2 from orbit. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jan 9, 2015, at 8:29 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm no expert, but I suppose it might come to pass if PV efficiency jumps and cost tumbles, PV efficiency is already plenty. The insolation on the average single-family home's roof at today's efficiency is virtually always some multiple, generally some very significant multiple, of the home's electricity use. And said multiple is again virtually always more than adequate to charge a vehicle. And materials are and for some time have been the cheapest component of a PV installation. What costs all the money is first and foremost the labor; qualified electricians aren't cheap, especially those who both have experience with high voltage DC and are competent roofers. And, many places, the legal paperwork -- all the permits and inspections and utility company writeoffs and what-not -- winds up costing more than the bill of materials. The key ingredients we really need are twofold: solar roofing installations that can take the place of and be installed by today's low-skill roofing laborers (perhaps with an electrician just for the final run from the roof to the breaker box) and less-expensive battery technology. The former exists in various prototypes that keep getting mentioned in press releases, and the latter is something well known to the EV crowd. Aargh, no clean underwear, and I can't do laundry because we're at 7% and I still have to charge the car. I wonder if the car has enough charge left for a trip to the store to buy some. That just means the system is under-sized. In such a case, either you should have spent more for a bigger system, or you knew what you were getting into and therefore budget your energy use accordingly. Low income households already face similar problems...do I pay the electric bill with the last $50 remaining on this credit card's limit, or do I use the money to buy groceries for the kids? Sorry, boss, I can't come in to work until this afternoon. Joe ran the house flat with his welder last night, and I won't have enough juice to charge my car until the sun comes up. If Joe's a contractor, he should be showing up with his own power supply (such as one of the many industrial EVs we've seen Bruce mention with their own power plugs) to run the welder in this future -- or, otherwise, first making sure that the site he's visiting has the spare capacity to power the welder. And if Joe lives in the home, it's his own damned fault. Also, the cost of storage (lithium battery? what?) It's a big question today, but I suspect we'll have a clear winner in the next several years at the most. Nickel-iron batteries live longer than people but cost more than any other type of battery. Lead acids are pretty cheap but die after a few years and cost significantly more over a lifetime. But there may well be a market in EV batteries old enough to be less than optimal for vehicular use but still with plenty left in them for an off-grid system. I could see leasing / renting of battery systems becoming popular, with the company that owns the batteries responsible for ensuring a minimum kWh capacity of the pack in exchange for whatever fees they charge, similar to what we've speculated Tesla might offer with their car battery swaps. would have to decline by, oh, I dunno, say, 90%? Nowhere near as much. In many parts of the country, the payback time for a complete off-grid solution is better than the payback time for money market funds and other financial instruments. That is, if you're invested in the stock market or especially your bank, you'll be wealthier at the end of a decade or three if you pull the money out and put it into an off-grid system. But that requires a significant amount (to most people) of available capital. But it also means that a business -- such as Solar City -- can afford to invest its own capital (or borrowed funds) to install such a system and become an ad-hoc utility and still make a marginal profit. That's
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Correct in that the grid will stay for the forseeable future. Today it is cost effective to install several hundred sq feet of solar, which can be placed on almost every building in one way or another, and which is sufficient to offset the majority of the average (net) consumption. Next step might be to add local (whole house) storage while still being grid-interactive (sell back at peaks) and give you the benefit of not being bothered when the grid goes off, your whole house still has the lights on, similar to an off-grid solution but with the benefits of both being able to sell back the excess as well as draw power when the sun does not fill up the local storage enough. EV packs *could* be tied into this but not necessarily since the typical commuter use of EVs makes them not present while the sun is out. There are interesting dynamics here and for now, no silver bullet. Since my EV is the major electricity consumer in the home, it makes sense if that is put on some demand response. I made my EV my DIY UPS by adding a 3kVA sine wave inverter to it, so I can keep the lights on in my home if the power goes for an extended period. I hope I never need it and it remains just a gadget, but I like to be prepared. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 12:55 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution Not everyone has a suburban ranch home with 2000 sq ft of roof. Many urban dwellers live in apartments with a tiny apportioned amount of roof space. Others have used the roof for other purposes - such as south facing clerestorey windows or a roof garden. Others may have gables with roofs facing east or west. Many don't have a garage with a separate roof. In my case, there's no way I can get enough panels to go off the grid with today's technology. The grid is here to stay for the indefinite future. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 09-Jan-15 12:35:33 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution On Jan 9, 2015, at 8:29 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm no expert, but I suppose it might come to pass if PV efficiency jumps and cost tumbles, PV efficiency is already plenty. The insolation on the average single-family home's roof at today's efficiency is virtually always some multiple, generally some very significant multiple, of the home's electricity use. And said multiple is again virtually always more than adequate to charge a vehicle. And materials are and for some time have been the cheapest component of a PV installation. What costs all the money is first and foremost the labor; qualified electricians aren't cheap, especially those who both have experience with high voltage DC and are competent roofers. And, many places, the legal paperwork -- all the permits and inspections and utility company writeoffs and what-not -- winds up costing more than the bill of materials. The key ingredients we really need are twofold: solar roofing installations that can take the place of and be installed by today's low-skill roofing laborers (perhaps with an electrician just for the final run from the roof to the breaker box) and less-expensive battery technology. The former exists in various prototypes that keep getting mentioned in press releases, and the latter is something well known to the EV crowd. Aargh, no clean underwear, and I can't do laundry because we're at 7% and I still have to charge the car. I wonder if the car has enough charge left for a trip to the store to buy some. That just means the system is under-sized. In such a case, either you should have spent more for a bigger system, or you knew what you were getting into and therefore budget your energy use accordingly. Low income households already face similar problems...do I pay the electric bill with the last $50 remaining on this credit card's limit, or do I use the money to buy groceries for the kids? Sorry, boss, I can't come in to work until this afternoon. Joe ran the house flat with his welder last night, and I won't have enough juice to charge my car until the sun comes up. If Joe's a contractor, he should be showing up with his own power supply (such as one of the many industrial EVs we've seen Bruce mention with their own power plugs) to run the welder in this future -- or, otherwise, first making sure that the site he's visiting has the spare capacity to power the welder. And if Joe lives in the home, it's his own damned fault. Also, the cost of storage
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
I don't have that much unshaded roof either, but it is still worth having the PV. I have a useful PV array at my home but I need a good bit more to power automobiles. However, I don't care if the utilities start using major PV and putting it on the grid. To me the grid is a good thing. I am not flush enough to build the power generation and storage to cover all my needs. Part of me wants to be childishly pissed at Duke Progress and tell them to stick it somewhere dark, but my inner parent knows I need what they offer. A far more useful scenario is for me to not commute so dang far. Then I can run a light EV even with my smallish system. Back to the point that many homes are unsuitable for PV (a truism). Each home need not support PV for this to work. I think it is reasonable to consider solar micro grids for communities - where the individual homes are shaded or too small. There is a whole lot of sunlight out there, that is why it makes some much sense to start using more of it. There is an enormous amount of abandoned or unused acreage in Raleigh near where I live. As for storage, there are other options than batteries. I hate to mention here, the dreaded hydrogen storage cell - but it is just a tank. There is a good case that can be made for using hydrogen as an analog to pump storage for renewably sourced energy - energy that is inconsistent in production (wind and sun). As inefficient as electrolysis and fuel cells may be for transportation use, the numbers look much better for large scale storage compared to batteries. I think the grid is our friend and this is one way it pays off. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not everyone has a suburban ranch home with 2000 sq ft of roof. Many urban dwellers live in apartments with a tiny apportioned amount of roof space. Others have used the roof for other purposes - such as south facing clerestorey windows or a roof garden. Others may have gables with roofs facing east or west. Many don't have a garage with a separate roof. In my case, there's no way I can get enough panels to go off the grid with today's technology. The grid is here to stay for the indefinite future. Peri -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150109/a041b3ce/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Not everyone has a suburban ranch home with 2000 sq ft of roof. Many urban dwellers live in apartments with a tiny apportioned amount of roof space. Others have used the roof for other purposes - such as south facing clerestorey windows or a roof garden. Others may have gables with roofs facing east or west. Many don't have a garage with a separate roof. In my case, there's no way I can get enough panels to go off the grid with today's technology. The grid is here to stay for the indefinite future. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 09-Jan-15 12:35:33 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution On Jan 9, 2015, at 8:29 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm no expert, but I suppose it might come to pass if PV efficiency jumps and cost tumbles, PV efficiency is already plenty. The insolation on the average single-family home's roof at today's efficiency is virtually always some multiple, generally some very significant multiple, of the home's electricity use. And said multiple is again virtually always more than adequate to charge a vehicle. And materials are and for some time have been the cheapest component of a PV installation. What costs all the money is first and foremost the labor; qualified electricians aren't cheap, especially those who both have experience with high voltage DC and are competent roofers. And, many places, the legal paperwork -- all the permits and inspections and utility company writeoffs and what-not -- winds up costing more than the bill of materials. The key ingredients we really need are twofold: solar roofing installations that can take the place of and be installed by today's low-skill roofing laborers (perhaps with an electrician just for the final run from the roof to the breaker box) and less-expensive battery technology. The former exists in various prototypes that keep getting mentioned in press releases, and the latter is something well known to the EV crowd. Aargh, no clean underwear, and I can't do laundry because we're at 7% and I still have to charge the car. I wonder if the car has enough charge left for a trip to the store to buy some. That just means the system is under-sized. In such a case, either you should have spent more for a bigger system, or you knew what you were getting into and therefore budget your energy use accordingly. Low income households already face similar problems...do I pay the electric bill with the last $50 remaining on this credit card's limit, or do I use the money to buy groceries for the kids? Sorry, boss, I can't come in to work until this afternoon. Joe ran the house flat with his welder last night, and I won't have enough juice to charge my car until the sun comes up. If Joe's a contractor, he should be showing up with his own power supply (such as one of the many industrial EVs we've seen Bruce mention with their own power plugs) to run the welder in this future -- or, otherwise, first making sure that the site he's visiting has the spare capacity to power the welder. And if Joe lives in the home, it's his own damned fault. Also, the cost of storage (lithium battery? what?) It's a big question today, but I suspect we'll have a clear winner in the next several years at the most. Nickel-iron batteries live longer than people but cost more than any other type of battery. Lead acids are pretty cheap but die after a few years and cost significantly more over a lifetime. But there may well be a market in EV batteries old enough to be less than optimal for vehicular use but still with plenty left in them for an off-grid system. I could see leasing / renting of battery systems becoming popular, with the company that owns the batteries responsible for ensuring a minimum kWh capacity of the pack in exchange for whatever fees they charge, similar to what we've speculated Tesla might offer with their car battery swaps. would have to decline by, oh, I dunno, say, 90%? Nowhere near as much. In many parts of the country, the payback time for a complete off-grid solution is better than the payback time for money market funds and other financial instruments. That is, if you're invested in the stock market or especially your bank, you'll be wealthier at the end of a decade or three if you pull the money out and put it into an off-grid system. But that requires a significant amount (to most people) of available capital. But it also means that a business -- such as Solar City -- can afford to invest its own capital (or borrowed funds) to install such a system and become an ad-hoc utility and still make a marginal profit. That's with today's technology...and it's only getting better. I have no idea whether such a quantum leap in PV and energy storage tech
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
simply have BMW, TESLA or GM or any other EV MFR that has direct wireless remote control of their vehicles oesystem implement the charging/grid algorithm since they alreadyave the REMOTE CHARGE CONTROL system to the car. Then the only finance negotiation is between the Utility and the Car MFR. ... (who passes it back to the car owner) I may be misunderstanding this idea. However, I find it a little disconcerting ... when I purchase something, I should own and control it. If the manufacturer retains control of when and where my EV can charge and discharge, it seems ... I don't fully control (own) the car. I remember a comment by a utility back a few years ago that said V2G to them would be worth almost $2000 per car. That is, if the system could be made to work, they would be willing to offer FREE electricity per year to those who participated in V2G. The math is not hard... Since the utility has to pay TEN to TWENTY times the cost for electricity during peak brown-out loads, they did the math and realize to be able to borrow a few 10 minute bursts of energy from 75 million car batteries during those 10-minute critical periods, the could more than make up for it by giving free electricity when the prices are low. Of course, there is a HUGE psychological hurdle to owners for such V2G where the utility takes power back from the car. But by implementing only the DEMAND RESPONSE half of it, then there is never energy removed from a EV battery, but just more optimum selection of times when to charge. This gives most of the utility benefit of having some control over those crisis peaks, and enough to make it worthwhile to the EV owner who has a little flexibility in charging over the day. And yes, they allowed for overrides. The check the EV owner would get back in the mail each month would be reduced a bit by the number of times he did an override. But still, it is free income to the owner if it matches his drive profile.. IE, parked all day at work MOST of the time with not a lot of business hours driving.. Bob, Wb4APR For a similar reason, I wouldn't buy a Renault Zoe with a leased battery. The fact that Renault can disable my battery remotely makes me really uncomfortable. They say they'll only do so if I don't keep up the lease payments, but who knows what other reason they might cook up, or what kind of errors their accounting department might make? The big media companies love such virtual entertainment as downloaded music, movies, and e-books. This is partly because ancient US laws on owning physical media such as CDs, DVDs, and books - and your rights as an owner of them - don't apply to them. They sell you not the item itself, but just the right to listen, view, or read it. They can control what you do with the item; you're usually not allowed to lend it or give it away, unlike real CDs, DVDs, and books. They can rescind that right if they choose. As I see it (and I am certainly open to correction if I'm wrong), Renault's scheme to retain control of their EVs' batteries, and the idea that BMW might control the charge in an EV, are related sentiments. If you're OK with that, go for it, but it's not for me. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
It may be that I'm misunderstanding this idea. However, I find it a little disconcerting. I can maybe see it for a leased EV, though I don't think I personally would accept it. As I understand it, they would pay you to allow them the control. If they don't offer enough money to interest you, you don't sign up for the program. If it is mandatory, it's a very bad idea! Bill -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150108/a5e18db1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
I would gladly participate in (full) V2G and get free electricity, as long as I can set a reasonable min level of charge that the car needs to have by the time that I use it again. Since V2G is often more about stabilizing (instant power) and not so much about energy transfer (discharge percentage) there is hardly any impact on car batteries from V2G. I have said before: braking for a stop and accelerating again is about the same process as V2G. There is a limited amount of energy involved, the grid is not going to suck your battery dry halfway the day - V2G may use a few percent of your capacity and it may use *all* of the power that your car can muster for a short time for the stabilizing process (limited by the service, the charging station and the (2-way) charger that your vehicle would be equipped with. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 7:05 AM To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution simply have BMW, TESLA or GM or any other EV MFR that has direct wireless remote control of their vehicles oesystem implement the charging/grid algorithm since they alreadyave the REMOTE CHARGE CONTROL system to the car. Then the only finance negotiation is between the Utility and the Car MFR. ... (who passes it back to the car owner) I may be misunderstanding this idea. However, I find it a little disconcerting ... when I purchase something, I should own and control it. If the manufacturer retains control of when and where my EV can charge and discharge, it seems ... I don't fully control (own) the car. I remember a comment by a utility back a few years ago that said V2G to them would be worth almost $2000 per car. That is, if the system could be made to work, they would be willing to offer FREE electricity per year to those who participated in V2G. The math is not hard... Since the utility has to pay TEN to TWENTY times the cost for electricity during peak brown-out loads, they did the math and realize to be able to borrow a few 10 minute bursts of energy from 75 million car batteries during those 10-minute critical periods, the could more than make up for it by giving free electricity when the prices are low. Of course, there is a HUGE psychological hurdle to owners for such V2G where the utility takes power back from the car. But by implementing only the DEMAND RESPONSE half of it, then there is never energy removed from a EV battery, but just more optimum selection of times when to charge. This gives most of the utility benefit of having some control over those crisis peaks, and enough to make it worthwhile to the EV owner who has a little flexibility in charging over the day. And yes, they allowed for overrides. The check the EV owner would get back in the mail each month would be reduced a bit by the number of times he did an override. But still, it is free income to the owner if it matches his drive profile.. IE, parked all day at work MOST of the time with not a lot of business hours driving.. Bob, Wb4APR For a similar reason, I wouldn't buy a Renault Zoe with a leased battery. The fact that Renault can disable my battery remotely makes me really uncomfortable. They say they'll only do so if I don't keep up the lease payments, but who knows what other reason they might cook up, or what kind of errors their accounting department might make? The big media companies love such virtual entertainment as downloaded music, movies, and e-books. This is partly because ancient US laws on owning physical media such as CDs, DVDs, and books - and your rights as an owner of them - don't apply to them. They sell you not the item itself, but just the right to listen, view, or read it. They can control what you do with the item; you're usually not allowed to lend it or give it away, unlike real CDs, DVDs, and books. They can rescind that right if they choose. As I see it (and I am certainly open to correction if I'm wrong), Renault's scheme to retain control of their EVs' batteries, and the idea that BMW might control the charge in an EV, are related sentiments. If you're OK with that, go for it, but it's not for me. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Drivers clearly can opt out: /In all likelihood, not all participating drivers will agree to delay charging each time the system sends an alert — they could be on the road or know they need a full charge soon. So BMW will tap a bank of used electric-car batteries, located at the automaker’s technology office in Mountain View, to make up the difference, sending PGE enough electricity to make up for the drivers who opted out. “That’s our way we’re ensuring that we always meet our commitment to PGE while never sacrificing mobility for our customers,” said Julia Sohnen, an advanced technology engineer in sustainable mobility for BMW./ So I guess the utility communicates with the ev and stops charging ones that are actively charging unless the driver has posted an opt out on the vehicle computer? Seems like a nice system since the utility still gets the allotted power savings they have contracted for with BMW, and the drivers are not impacted - as long as they remember to post an opt out when needed. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-Demand-Response-backdoor-solution-tp4673371p4673380.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
The more I think about it, the more I think that the grid's days are numbered. No, not that it'll go away entirely -- at least, not for a lifetime or more. But, rather, that, in ten to twenty years, people will be as comfortable not having a grid connection as they are today not having a landline telephone. Right now, we're about where we were when the Motorola brick mobile phone came out...a few people had already had ludicrously expensive car phones, and the brick was only portable in the same sense that a Mac Classic was...but, if circumstances worked out and you had the money, you could do away with an ATT phone entirely -- even if not many actually did unless they were far enough from civilization that ATT wouldn't run a line out to you. Today, of course, even schoolchildren have their own smartphones, and most Millennials can't imagine why they'd possibly want a landline. For that matter, Millennials don't even use voicemail or email -- mostly just text and chat, and not even that much voice calling. If the power companies want to prolong their relevance and position themselves as best as possible for a post-grid world, they're going to have to lead the way on things like V2G. A great way to start would be subsidies for EVs in exchange for V2G rights. They could do the same with plain old fixed battery banks. The power company could retain ownership of the batteries in exchange for reduced rates and a guarantee of uninterrupted service in the case of an outage. Or, if you want to own your batteries yourself, the utility could provide a smart meter that advertised both the amount they're going to charge you for usage and how much they're willing to pay for backfeed, and you can provide similar information to the meter. Program your local controller with variables such as the current charge in your batteries and your anticipated usage, and it adjusts the prices it advertises accordingly. You naturally wind up buying power when cheap and selling it when expensive, and the ut ility does likewise, nicely leveling out both grid load and electricity prices at the same time. Instead, of course, the utilities are dead set against change...just like the landline phone companies that fought number portability, the utilities are determined to penalize those who fail to use electricity in the way the utilities are used to. Solar producers, whom they should see as their best customers, are their prime target...which just hastens the demise of the grid. Just as people would rather put up with the hassle of getting a new number than continue to do business with a company that would be dickish about letting them leave, so, too, are people going to prefer the expense and initial inconvenience of going to an off-grid battery solution to dealing with Ma Bell in an electrician's uniform. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150108/408a86bd/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
Depending on how it gets implemented, this is a great idea. In our household of 3, my EV is by far the biggest consumer of electricity. After switching lights to LEDs and having the stove and clothes dryer on natural gas, while finding ways to not need the Airco, the EV charging accounts for more than half our consumption and that does not even include the charging while I work. Without the EV, we may use 120-150kWh/month but the EV adds 150-200 to that, so we are always on the border of the baseline tariff. Allowing the (mostly nighttime) charging to be shifted up to an hour (which would mostly impact the workday recharging that typically takes 4-5 hours so not a big deal if it gets suspended for an hour occasionally) and receiving a payment for that is IMHO a good deal *IF* the car allows an override by the user (and consequently, voiding the payment for the missed demand response) in case the recharge is sorely needed (you are waiting for it). I think this is what David addresses as who is in control. I don't mind an entity trying to optimize their market as long as that is indifferent to me (car is recharged at the end of the day) so I am all for V2G, but I need to have a means to take control when it does matter. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 1:28 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution On 7 Jan 2015 at 13:22, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: simply have BMW, TESLA or GM or any other EV MFR that has direct wireless remote control of their vehicles oesystem implement the charging/grid algorithm since they already have the REMOTE CHARGE CONTROL system to the car. Then the only finance negotiation is between the Utility and the Car MFR. It may be that I'm misunderstanding this idea. However, I find it a little disconcerting. I can maybe see it for a leased EV, though I don't think I personally would accept it. I have this odd, old fashioned idea that when I purchase something, I should own and control it. If the manufacturer retains control of when and where my EV can charge and discharge, it seems to me that I don't fully control (own) the car. For a similar reason, I wouldn't buy a Renault Zoe with a leased battery. The fact that Renault can disable my battery remotely makes me really uncomfortable. They say they'll only do so if I don't keep up the lease payments, but who knows what other reason they might cook up, or what kind of errors their accounting department might make? The big media companies love such virtual entertainment as downloaded music, movies, and e-books. This is partly because ancient US laws on owning physical media such as CDs, DVDs, and books - and your rights as an owner of them - don't apply to them. They sell you not the item itself, but just the right to listen, view, or read it. They can control what you do with the item; you're usually not allowed to lend it or give it away, unlike real CDs, DVDs, and books. They can rescind that right if they choose. As I see it (and I am certainly open to correction if I'm wrong), Renault's scheme to retain control of their EVs' batteries, and the idea that BMW might control the charge in an EV, are related sentiments. If you're OK with that, go for it, but it's not for me. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - backdoor solution
On 7 Jan 2015 at 13:22, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: simply have BMW, TESLA or GM or any other EV MFR that has direct wireless remote control of their vehicles oesystem implement the charging/grid algorithm since they already have the REMOTE CHARGE CONTROL system to the car. Then the only finance negotiation is between the Utility and the Car MFR. It may be that I'm misunderstanding this idea. However, I find it a little disconcerting. I can maybe see it for a leased EV, though I don't think I personally would accept it. I have this odd, old fashioned idea that when I purchase something, I should own and control it. If the manufacturer retains control of when and where my EV can charge and discharge, it seems to me that I don't fully control (own) the car. For a similar reason, I wouldn't buy a Renault Zoe with a leased battery. The fact that Renault can disable my battery remotely makes me really uncomfortable. They say they'll only do so if I don't keep up the lease payments, but who knows what other reason they might cook up, or what kind of errors their accounting department might make? The big media companies love such virtual entertainment as downloaded music, movies, and e-books. This is partly because ancient US laws on owning physical media such as CDs, DVDs, and books - and your rights as an owner of them - don't apply to them. They sell you not the item itself, but just the right to listen, view, or read it. They can control what you do with the item; you're usually not allowed to lend it or give it away, unlike real CDs, DVDs, and books. They can rescind that right if they choose. As I see it (and I am certainly open to correction if I'm wrong), Renault's scheme to retain control of their EVs' batteries, and the idea that BMW might control the charge in an EV, are related sentiments. If you're OK with that, go for it, but it's not for me. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
