Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I’m not sure you need this. These huge investments were mandated under the VW 
lawsuit settlement (EA is actually a VW company).

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Electrify America - It's at least possible. There are about 225k miles of 
> freeways and national highways. If you were to put a charge station every 30 
> miles, that would be approx 7500 stations. A big number but at least tangible.
> 
> http://blog.midwestind.com/how-much-road-in-the-us-in-miles/
> 
> In my opinion, the way to speed this up is to offer cheap or interest free 
> loans to businesses (e.g. gas stations) on these routes so that they can put 
> the L3 chargers in right away and pay them back over time.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Willie via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Willie" 
> Sent: 20-Aug-19 8:19:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 8/20/19 5:58 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>> I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for 
>>> an EVSE at all.
>> 
>> I was very pleasantly surprised on a trip to Alberta and there abouts. I 
>> found "Destination" charging as far north as Fort St John.  And charged at 
>> two other hotels from block heater outlets.  I found one very good one that 
>> gave me 12 amps all night long; another, only 9 amps.
>> I did not notice any block heater outlets south of the border: Montana, 
>> Wyoming, etc.
>> 
>> I noticed an Electrify America chademo/combo station near a SuperCharger in 
>> Lima Montana.  A LOT of money is being spent on the Electrify America thing. 
>>  I wonder if it will eventually fly?  Or crash?  You rarely see a 
>> SuperCharger without at least one car.  Will there be enough "other" EVs on 
>> the road to justify the Electrify America cost?  Especially in the 
>> hinterlands.
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

EA claims that they’ve done a detailed business case analysis on all of their 
investments, or at least their management said so on a call I was on with them.

Then again, I heard stories about some of their investments, where they just 
tossed them in at the last minute, clearly without any real assessment.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 8/20/19 5:58 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for 
>> an EVSE at all.
> 
> I was very pleasantly surprised on a trip to Alberta and there abouts. I 
> found "Destination" charging as far north as Fort St John.  And charged at 
> two other hotels from block heater outlets.  I found one very good one that 
> gave me 12 amps all night long; another, only 9 amps.
> I did not notice any block heater outlets south of the border: Montana, 
> Wyoming, etc.
> 
> I noticed an Electrify America chademo/combo station near a SuperCharger in 
> Lima Montana.  A LOT of money is being spent on the Electrify America thing.  
> I wonder if it will eventually fly?  Or crash?  You rarely see a SuperCharger 
> without at least one car.  Will there be enough "other" EVs on the road to 
> justify the Electrify America cost?  Especially in the hinterlands.
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Agree with most here: why risk coop money when evse companies are willing
to install for free and may even share some of the profit after recouping
their cost?
We are still in land grab time over evse installs, so use it for non core
business at the coop and reap the benefit of extra customers without the
fin risk on the evse.
Full disclosure: I work for a charger building company.
Cor.

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 8:38 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Throwback to the early 1900s!
>
> I think that this would really cut total cost of BEV infrastructure,
> particularly in new development. It also seems relatively simple.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 20, 2019, at 3:58 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> > I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need
> for an EVSE at all.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:00 PM, Brandon Hines via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always thought that one of the biggest problems with EVs is that
> it is difficult to make charging infrastructure profitable.  Any reasonably
> profitable markup on electricity would be outrageous from a consumer
> perspective.  Any investment into a small number of stations does not
> sufficient spread the risk.  There is a high probability that maintenance
> costs will eat most, if not all, potential profits.
> >>
> >> In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for
> a L3 charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel, not
> opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving extended
> distances to shop for groceries.
> >>
> >> A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the
> total cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles
> added per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an occasional
> shopper needs more range they can sit for a meal at the deli.  The extra
> Balsamic Pesto sandwich they sell should cover the cost of electricity.
> >>
> >> As a big supporter of both EVs and co-ops, spending so much money on a
> non-core service that comes with additional risks and marginal upside just
> doesn't make any sense to me.  To be honest, the better solution would
> likely be to partner with an existing company who can take all the risks
> and deal with payments.  The co-op should just reap the benefits of having
> some shoppers spend more time and money in the store.
> >>
> >> -Brandon
> >>
> >>> On 8/19/19 6:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>> That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how
> long a driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I would
> guess in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50% occupancy
> rate. But of course some times of day would be in more or less demand than
> others.
> >>>
> >>> Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his
> account, plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car when
> done. You don't get revenue during those times.
> >>>
> >>> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge
> should start and you get substantially less revenue.
> >>>
> >>> I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and
> plan on recouping it with associated business.
> >>>
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> -- Original Message --
> >>> From: "paul dove via EV" 
> >>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>> Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
> >>> Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?
> >>>
> >>>> If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that
> would be $160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh that
> would take two years to get back the investment with no maintenance costs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've
> never seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Throwback to the early 1900s!

I think that this would really cut total cost of BEV infrastructure, 
particularly in new development. It also seems relatively simple.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2019, at 3:58 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for 
> an EVSE at all. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:00 PM, Brandon Hines via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> I have always thought that one of the biggest problems with EVs is that it 
>> is difficult to make charging infrastructure profitable.  Any reasonably 
>> profitable markup on electricity would be outrageous from a consumer 
>> perspective.  Any investment into a small number of stations does not 
>> sufficient spread the risk.  There is a high probability that maintenance 
>> costs will eat most, if not all, potential profits.
>> 
>> In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for a L3 
>> charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel, not 
>> opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving extended 
>> distances to shop for groceries.
>> 
>> A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the total 
>> cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles added 
>> per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an occasional 
>> shopper needs more range they can sit for a meal at the deli.  The extra 
>> Balsamic Pesto sandwich they sell should cover the cost of electricity.
>> 
>> As a big supporter of both EVs and co-ops, spending so much money on a 
>> non-core service that comes with additional risks and marginal upside just 
>> doesn't make any sense to me.  To be honest, the better solution would 
>> likely be to partner with an existing company who can take all the risks and 
>> deal with payments.  The co-op should just reap the benefits of having some 
>> shoppers spend more time and money in the store.
>> 
>> -Brandon
>> 
>>> On 8/19/19 6:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how long a 
>>> driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I would guess 
>>> in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50% occupancy rate. 
>>> But of course some times of day would be in more or less demand than others.
>>> 
>>> Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his 
>>> account, plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car when 
>>> done. You don't get revenue during those times.
>>> 
>>> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge should 
>>> start and you get substantially less revenue.
>>> 
>>> I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and plan 
>>> on recouping it with associated business.
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "paul dove via EV" 
>>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
>>> Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?
>>> 
>>>> If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that would 
>>>> be $160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh that would 
>>>> take two years to get back the investment with no maintenance costs.
>>>> 
>>>> Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've 
>>>> never seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 

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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Electrify America - It's at least possible. There are about 225k miles 
of freeways and national highways. If you were to put a charge station 
every 30 miles, that would be approx 7500 stations. A big number but at 
least tangible.


http://blog.midwestind.com/how-much-road-in-the-us-in-miles/

In my opinion, the way to speed this up is to offer cheap or interest 
free loans to businesses (e.g. gas stations) on these routes so that 
they can put the L3 chargers in right away and pay them back over time.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 20-Aug-19 8:19:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?




On 8/20/19 5:58 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for an 
EVSE at all.


I was very pleasantly surprised on a trip to Alberta and there abouts. I found 
"Destination" charging as far north as Fort St John.  And charged at two other 
hotels from block heater outlets.  I found one very good one that gave me 12 amps all 
night long; another, only 9 amps.
I did not notice any block heater outlets south of the border: Montana, 
Wyoming, etc.

I noticed an Electrify America chademo/combo station near a SuperCharger in Lima Montana. 
 A LOT of money is being spent on the Electrify America thing.  I wonder if it will 
eventually fly?  Or crash?  You rarely see a SuperCharger without at least one car.  Will 
there be enough "other" EVs on the road to justify the Electrify America cost?  
Especially in the hinterlands.
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Willie via EV]

On 8/20/19 5:58 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for an 
EVSE at all.


I was very pleasantly surprised on a trip to Alberta and there abouts. 
I found "Destination" charging as far north as Fort St John.  And 
charged at two other hotels from block heater outlets.  I found one very 
good one that gave me 12 amps all night long; another, only 9 amps.
I did not notice any block heater outlets south of the border: Montana, 
Wyoming, etc.


I noticed an Electrify America chademo/combo station near a SuperCharger 
in Lima Montana.  A LOT of money is being spent on the Electrify America 
thing.  I wonder if it will eventually fly?  Or crash?  You rarely see a 
SuperCharger without at least one car.  Will there be enough "other" EVs 
on the road to justify the Electrify America cost?  Especially in the 
hinterlands.

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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[paul dove via EV]

Tesla charges idle fees by the hour when charge is complete 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:23 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 19 Aug 2019 at 23:12, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge should 
>> start and you get substantially less revenue.
> 
> Really?  I read recently that at many commercial EVSEs in France, billing is 
> strictly by time connected, not energy usage.  Presumably that's an 
> incentive to pull the plug at 80% or less.  Is that never the case here?
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[paul dove via EV]

I still say put in 110v outlets on all the curbs like up north. No need for an 
EVSE at all. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:00 PM, Brandon Hines via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have always thought that one of the biggest problems with EVs is that it is 
> difficult to make charging infrastructure profitable.  Any reasonably 
> profitable markup on electricity would be outrageous from a consumer 
> perspective.  Any investment into a small number of stations does not 
> sufficient spread the risk.  There is a high probability that maintenance 
> costs will eat most, if not all, potential profits.
> 
> In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for a L3 
> charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel, not 
> opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving extended 
> distances to shop for groceries.
> 
> A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the total cost 
> and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles added per hour 
> should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an occasional shopper needs 
> more range they can sit for a meal at the deli.  The extra Balsamic Pesto 
> sandwich they sell should cover the cost of electricity.
> 
> As a big supporter of both EVs and co-ops, spending so much money on a 
> non-core service that comes with additional risks and marginal upside just 
> doesn't make any sense to me.  To be honest, the better solution would likely 
> be to partner with an existing company who can take all the risks and deal 
> with payments.  The co-op should just reap the benefits of having some 
> shoppers spend more time and money in the store.
> 
> -Brandon
> 
>> On 8/19/19 6:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how long a 
>> driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I would guess 
>> in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50% occupancy rate. 
>> But of course some times of day would be in more or less demand than others.
>> 
>> Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his account, 
>> plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car when done. You 
>> don't get revenue during those times.
>> 
>> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge should 
>> start and you get substantially less revenue.
>> 
>> I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and plan 
>> on recouping it with associated business.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "paul dove via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
>> Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?
>> 
>>> If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that would be 
>>> $160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh that would take 
>>> two years to get back the investment with no maintenance costs.
>>> 
>>> Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've never 
>>> seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:18:41 PM CDT, jim via EV 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food co-op 
>>> and an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two level 2 and a 
>>> 75kW level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront location.  They are 
>>> figuring on about $50,000 by the time it is functional (most of the cost 
>>> due to the level 3 charging).  I'm not sure how payment for charging will 
>>> be done, but I thought that the total estimated cost that they are assuming 
>>> was interesting.
>>> Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

In our area, central North Carolina, the Sheetz gas stations have been
installing Level 3 chargers at almost all their stations.  Sheetz has
fast food service that you can order from the pump.  On Plugshare,
they generally have a 10.0 availability rating.   The Sheetz stations
provide up to 150kw service using EVgo chargers.

The other places are a Target, AAA's, 2 motels, a Harley-Davidson
dealership, a Land Rover dealership, and the local dealerships that
sell EVs.

On a personal basis, I charge at home on Level 1 at either 8 or 12
amps.  If I need faster recharge rates, I recharge on the way out of
town.  If there was a Tesla Supercharger near me, I would use it about
once a month at the most.  There is a Chevy Dealership about a half
hour away and I know someone who commutes daily about 40 miles one way
and he has never used the Chevy Bolt Level 3 charger.  He uses the
Sheetz station chargers which are along his route; generally within 1
to 2 miles of his route.  He enjoys the experience..


On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:53 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Mon Aug 19 19:00:13 PDT 2019 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for
> >a L3 charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel,
> >not opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving
> >extended distances to shop for groceries.
> >
> >A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the total
> >cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles
> >added per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an
>
> As far as I can tell, L2 at a business is pointless for anyone other than 
> employees.
> With modern EV's, adding 10 or 20 miles while you eat or shop is just silly.
> I could see L2 being useful for Hotels.  Otherwise, charge at home.
>
> DC Fast charging at appropriate locations is useful, but it needs to be a 
> location where you are probably only going to be there for an hour or so, AND 
> are likely to have driven quite a ways.  Restaurants along highways, rest 
> areas, etc...  Or in locations with a high density of people who can't charge 
> at home.
>
> --
>
> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Mon Aug 19 19:00:13 PDT 2019 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for
>a L3 charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel,
>not opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving
>extended distances to shop for groceries.
>
>A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the total
>cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles
>added per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an

As far as I can tell, L2 at a business is pointless for anyone other than 
employees.
With modern EV's, adding 10 or 20 miles while you eat or shop is just silly.
I could see L2 being useful for Hotels.  Otherwise, charge at home.

DC Fast charging at appropriate locations is useful, but it needs to be a 
location where you are probably only going to be there for an hour or so, AND 
are likely to have driven quite a ways.  Restaurants along highways, rest 
areas, etc...  Or in locations with a high density of people who can't charge 
at home.

--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

>>  I read recently that at many commercial EVSEs in France, billing is
strictly by time connected, not energy usage.

Something else to consider is that many utilities forbid the 
reselling of their energy. In fact, in Oregon, its a state law, and 
probably is elsewhere as well. No laws say you can't charge for 
parking/being connected, but when you keep track of the energy 
delivered and charge accordingly, at a profit or not, the statutes 
kick in. Don't know how that comes into play with existing commercial 
charging facilities.


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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Matthew Pitts via EV]

All of this assumes that the person shopping wants to be in the store long 
enough to make plugging in worthwhile. It might work at a place like Walmart or 
a similar big box store,  but may not have the expected results at a smaller 
grocery store.

Matthew Pitts

On August 19, 2019 10:00:13 PM EDT, Brandon Hines via EV  
wrote:
>I have always thought that one of the biggest problems with EVs is that
>
>it is difficult to make charging infrastructure profitable.  Any 
>reasonably profitable markup on electricity would be outrageous from a 
>consumer perspective.  Any investment into a small number of stations 
>does not sufficient spread the risk.  There is a high probability that 
>maintenance costs will eat most, if not all, potential profits.
>
>In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for
>
>a L3 charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel,
>
>not opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving 
>extended distances to shop for groceries.
>
>A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the
>total 
>cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles 
>added per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an 
>occasional shopper needs more range they can sit for a meal at the 
>deli.  The extra Balsamic Pesto sandwich they sell should cover the
>cost 
>of electricity.
>
>As a big supporter of both EVs and co-ops, spending so much money on a 
>non-core service that comes with additional risks and marginal upside 
>just doesn't make any sense to me.  To be honest, the better solution 
>would likely be to partner with an existing company who can take all
>the 
>risks and deal with payments.  The co-op should just reap the benefits 
>of having some shoppers spend more time and money in the store.
>
>-Brandon
>
>On 8/19/19 6:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how 
>> long a driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I
>
>> would guess in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50%
>
>> occupancy rate. But of course some times of day would be in more or 
>> less demand than others.
>>
>> Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his 
>> account, plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car
>when 
>> done. You don't get revenue during those times.
>>
>> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge 
>> should start and you get substantially less revenue.
>>
>> I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and
>
>> plan on recouping it with associated business.
>>
>> Peri
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "paul dove via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
>> Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?
>>
>>> If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that 
>>> would be $160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh
>
>>> that would take two years to get back the investment with no 
>>> maintenance costs.
>>>
>>> Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income.
>I've 
>>> never seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:18:41 PM CDT, jim via EV 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>  Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food
>
>>> co-op and an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two 
>>> level 2 and a 75kW level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront
>
>>> location.  They are figuring on about $50,000 by the time it is 
>>> functional (most of the cost due to the level 3 charging).  I'm not 
>>> sure how payment for charging will be done, but I thought that the 
>>> total estimated cost that they are assuming was interesting.
>>> Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
>>> -- next part --
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>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>> 

Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2019 at 23:12, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge should 
> start and you get substantially less revenue.

Really?  I read recently that at many commercial EVSEs in France, billing is 
strictly by time connected, not energy usage.  Presumably that's an 
incentive to pull the plug at 80% or less.  Is that never the case here?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Brandon Hines via EV]

I have always thought that one of the biggest problems with EVs is that 
it is difficult to make charging infrastructure profitable.  Any 
reasonably profitable markup on electricity would be outrageous from a 
consumer perspective.  Any investment into a small number of stations 
does not sufficient spread the risk.  There is a high probability that 
maintenance costs will eat most, if not all, potential profits.


In this particular case I would highly advise against spending $50k for 
a L3 charger at a co-op.  L3 charging is more for long distance travel, 
not opportunity charging.  I suspect most people are not driving 
extended distances to shop for groceries.


A better strategy might be to install 6 L2 chargers for 1/10th the total 
cost and allow shoppers to charge for free. The additional 20 miles 
added per hour should be beneficial to most shoppers.  And if an 
occasional shopper needs more range they can sit for a meal at the 
deli.  The extra Balsamic Pesto sandwich they sell should cover the cost 
of electricity.


As a big supporter of both EVs and co-ops, spending so much money on a 
non-core service that comes with additional risks and marginal upside 
just doesn't make any sense to me.  To be honest, the better solution 
would likely be to partner with an existing company who can take all the 
risks and deal with payments.  The co-op should just reap the benefits 
of having some shoppers spend more time and money in the store.


-Brandon

On 8/19/19 6:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how 
long a driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I 
would guess in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50% 
occupancy rate. But of course some times of day would be in more or 
less demand than others.


Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his 
account, plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car when 
done. You don't get revenue during those times.


Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge 
should start and you get substantially less revenue.


I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and 
plan on recouping it with associated business.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that 
would be $160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh 
that would take two years to get back the investment with no 
maintenance costs.


Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've 
never seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.





    On Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:18:41 PM CDT, jim via EV 
 wrote:


 Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food 
co-op and an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two 
level 2 and a 75kW level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront 
location.  They are figuring on about $50,000 by the time it is 
functional (most of the cost due to the level 3 charging).  I'm not 
sure how payment for charging will be done, but I thought that the 
total estimated cost that they are assuming was interesting.

Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That's pretty optimistic thinking. You have to take into account how 
long a driver is willing to wait for a charger to become available. I 
would guess in the *best* of circumstances that would result in a 50% 
occupancy rate. But of course some times of day would be in more or less 
demand than others.


Another factor is that some of the time is the user authorizing his 
account, plugging in the cable, and unplugging and moving the car when 
done. You don't get revenue during those times.


Third, if someone goes past about 80% charge, the trickle charge should 
start and you get substantially less revenue.


I believe anyone who installs an L3 should expect it to be a loss and 
plan on recouping it with associated business.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "paul dove" ; "jim" 
Sent: 19-Aug-19 1:06:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?


If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that would be 
$160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh that would take two 
years to get back the investment with no maintenance costs.

Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've never 
seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.




On Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:18:41 PM CDT, jim via EV  
wrote:

 Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food co-op and 
an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two level 2 and a 75kW 
level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront location.  They are figuring 
on about $50,000 by the time it is functional (most of the cost due to the 
level 3 charging).  I'm not sure how payment for charging will be done, but I 
thought that the total estimated cost that they are assuming was interesting.
Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[paul dove via EV]

If there were a car plugged into all three for 10 hours a day that would be 
$160 to $175 at $0.20 per KWh. Assuming cost of $0.10 a KWh that would take two 
years to get back the investment with no maintenance costs.

Those are big if's. but then it would be $25k a year income. I've never 
seen chargers that busy around here but maybe in California.


 

On Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:18:41 PM CDT, jim via EV  
wrote:  
 
 Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food co-op and 
an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two level 2 and a 75kW 
level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront location.  They are figuring 
on about $50,000 by the time it is functional (most of the cost due to the 
level 3 charging).  I'm not sure how payment for charging will be done, but I 
thought that the total estimated cost that they are assuming was interesting.
Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[jim via EV]

Locally (Menomonie, WI, about an hour east of St Paul, MN) our food co-op and 
an electric car owner/investor are hoping to install two level 2 and a 75kW 
level 3 charging stations at the co-op storefront location.  They are figuring 
on about $50,000 by the time it is functional (most of the cost due to the 
level 3 charging).  I'm not sure how payment for charging will be done, but I 
thought that the total estimated cost that they are assuming was interesting.
Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The ROI is from associated business. I think the same is true for gas 
stations. They don't make money selling gas but from the items in the 
convenience store.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 19-Aug-19 4:02:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?


Be prepared for slow return on investment. Chargers are not in use more than is 
use. I would be interested in the number of years to payback figures.

Sent from my iPhone


 On Aug 18, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Seth Rothenberg via EV  wrote:

 Has anyone on this list been involved in owning a DCQC charging station?

 I have identified a few locations that might be profitable
 as a stand-alone location, somewhat in the way a privately-owned ATM
 works in every bodega in town.

 I have visited Chargepoint and evGo web sites, but there's
 nothing like hearing from someone who has done it.
 Is there a charging network that supports this model well?

 (Probably none right near my house, as there are
 charging locations in progress on the Turnpike and the Parkway.
 (The Vince Lombardi Service Area is in place but not yet
 interfacing with evGo membership database :-)

 To use an analogy, everyone asks "chicken or the egg?"
 but I am asking, "I want to build the nest and charge rent"

 Thanks
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[paul dove via EV]

Be prepared for slow return on investment. Chargers are not in use more than is 
use. I would be interested in the number of years to payback figures.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 18, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Seth Rothenberg via EV  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone on this list been involved in owning a DCQC charging station?
> 
> I have identified a few locations that might be profitable
> as a stand-alone location, somewhat in the way a privately-owned ATM
> works in every bodega in town.
> 
> I have visited Chargepoint and evGo web sites, but there's
> nothing like hearing from someone who has done it.
> Is there a charging network that supports this model well?
> 
> (Probably none right near my house, as there are
> charging locations in progress on the Turnpike and the Parkway.
> (The Vince Lombardi Service Area is in place but not yet
> interfacing with evGo membership database :-)
> 
> To use an analogy, everyone asks "chicken or the egg?"
> but I am asking, "I want to build the nest and charge rent"
> 
> Thanks
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[Seth Rothenberg via EV]

If anyone needs L2 charging in Passaic, NJ, feel "free" to let me know.
After my driveway has cured a few more days.

If anyone needs DCQC in Yonkers,
I am studying how to provide it.

I can't do it for free in a remote location.
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Re: [EVDL] Public station, private ownership?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 18 Aug 2019 at 15:38, Seth Rothenberg via EV wrote:

> (Probably none right near my house, as there are
> charging locations in progress on the Turnpike and the Parkway.
> (The Vince Lombardi Service Area is in place but not yet
> interfacing with evGo membership database :-)

Near what house where?  Which turnpike?  Which parkway?  I'll bet I'm not 
the only person here who has no clue where you live.

> To use an analogy, everyone asks "chicken or the egg?"
> but I am asking, "I want to build the nest and charge rent"

Anybody else here remember Bob Rice and his charging station?  About a 
decade ago, Bob -- an EVDLer from almost the beginning, and one of the main 
movers behind the Citicar, rest his soul -- put up a box with a 14-50 
receptacle in his front yard.  He invited any EV driver to charge there for 
free.  

Times sure have changed.  

I mean, I guess it's great that today you can think about EV charging as a 
way to make an income.  But somehow it feels like we've lost something here.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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