Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Hello again. Not to belabor the point, but I just stumbled upon an interview 
with Lee Smolin, where he elaborates on his views and analysis of the cosmos 
changing, seemingly, in response to observations by myself (the stars are 
little lights in the sky) to somebody like yourself (Inferring a non, anti-de 
Sitter space would a non-Trivial stochastic, Markov-chain objection to 
Godelian, Bohmian, Super-Symmetry). In other words it somehow pays attention to 
really smart people
 as opposed to agrarian, domesticates, such as myself. Here tis'...
https://iai.tv/articles/lee-smolin-the-laws-of-the-universe-change-auid-2174


-Original Message-
From: spudboy100 via Everything List 
To: goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com ; 
everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

Understood, LC, but even statistically this'd be a one-off even, maybe 13.7 
billion years ago. An event that occurred after trillions or quadrillions of 
relative terms. Yes, you've cast your physics pearls before this swine, and so 
be it. So, I will scratch off the BB. 
Now if the Smolin auto-didactic paper holds up, we still seemingly have another 
cosmic mystery to solve. In any case this study may not have a budget to pursue 
to this inquiry. It was funded by Microsoft last year, so who knows?
Happy 4th LC


-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 7:51 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

No Boltzmann brains (BBs). The instability of the de Sitter (dS) vacuum makes 
the probability for BBs very small. The problem with the BB is that if they 
exist we may not know whether we are BBs, or that I am a BB and all other 
people are phantasms of my mind. The problem is that if the dS vacuum were 
eternal the integrated probability for a BB is one, they are necessary. But, it 
the dS vacuum has finite time and is unstable, even if it can remain for 
10^{10^{10^{10}}} years this reduces the probability of a BB from unity or one 
to near zero.
LC

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

It may not be "God" but it may, more significantly, be mind. 
If its a Boltzmann Brain who woke with false memories, and was the only BB in 
quintillions of years to successfully open and sustain itself (as has been 
proposed) I say, who am I to be disinterested, disrespectful, or reject it, 
him, her, them? The point would be, that it seems interested in what you do for 
a living, what an astrophysicist does to earn a paycheck, and this may be 
sufficient. It reacts and responds, apparently. This may also have impact on 
how fast information can actually travel, or what detects what some people are 
doing? 
I won't get into the probability that UFO's is the BB is  interacting with 
subjects by giving us an anthropomorphic symbolism to gaze upon? My feeling is 
that people are more likely lying to get attention, than anything else, because 
lying works in so many other areas of human activity, so why not simply lie? 
Ball lightning created by piezo-electric geology thus becomes an alien 
intervention. 
I am primate-enough to enjoy the idea of a big mind, so for "God" us beggars 
can't be choosers, especially if He's got the time and interest to get things 
mended? For those who need this idea like a fork to the eye, I say, wonderful. 
Glad to hear that you have your emotions whipped into shape, because it sounds 
very healthy. No Problemo. Rock on! 



-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:52 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though that at 
a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise or with 
Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and becomes 
sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory to 
propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. This is 
actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I think 
automatically points to some sort of God.
LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 7:55:20 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for everything, 
no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied research inquiry. If 
God wills it and is the cause for everything than why study it? On the Udder 
Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in your path, strike him down."  
Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, don't let me stop you. 
For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because its 
less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I present 
here. https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902

With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin

RE: Before Big Bang What?

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin] Pagans are usually very brilliant and successful people. 
Augustine was a brilliant Greco-Roman pagan. Ptolemy was likewise a brilliant 
pagan astronomer, the Ecclesiastical authorities in Galileo's times were only 
defending the Ptolemaic scholarship, just as they defend Darwinism today.  
Lucifer (the shining one) is introduced as the most brilliant of all creation.  
 Pagans produced some of the richest and greatest civilizations-Ancient Egypt, 
Assyria, Babylon, India, China, Greece,  Persia, Rome etc. Brilliance is 
nobody's monopoly. Only WAMP-the-Ingrate imagine otherwise. Philip

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 3:37 PM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:14 PM Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

>  unlike pagan religions of the world [blah blah]

I don't get it, every post from you is about pagans, but pagans are almost as 
dull and downright silly as Christians and Muslims.
John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  
Extropolis<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fg%2Fextropolis=05%7C01%7C%7Cbfebc5878e64427bbef508da5dfd17f6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637925638858607513%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=p%2FNwWUqh0YX2AHCP%2B16jg0TFUCUnSADL%2BvQRODNrE8U%3D=0>
aad





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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

To be honest, I have long believed this to be a flaw in our team. Let us just 
conclude that it goes against whatever B.F. Skinner taught, and he was a very 
solid atheist indeed. If one does things for moral reasons, then it has to do 
with using a deity to generate survival friendly behavior. Doing it for The 
Team requires not belief but ethics.  


-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

 Judaism at least teaches that one should do good because it's a virtue.  No 
for rewards either in life or afterward.
 
 Brent
 
 On 7/4/2022 5:22 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:
  
  
Acknowledging the Perfection of our Lord 
  
  No change should there be in the creation of Allah [Quran 30:30]  Mission of 
the Messengers - XXIX    
  
  
  Abstract  To do تَسْبِيحَ of Allah means to acknowledge, declare, and/or 
celebrate that Allah is absolutely perfect. Allah creates perfectly and governs 
excellently. We humans need to acknowledge and appreciate this fact, and 
consequently submit to The Right Religion (الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ). 
 
   
  Full Text  The Quran informs us that those who believe and do righteous deeds 
/ acts of reform (آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ), their Lord will guide 
them, due to their faith, to the Gardens of bounty, bliss, delight, pleasure, 
et al (جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ). Upon experiencing the perfection of the Gardens of 
the Hereafter, they will exclaim:   
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2018/10/acknowledging-perfection-of-our-lord.html
 
 
On 04-Jul-2022, at 7:20 PM, John Clark  wrote:
 
 
  
    On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  
wrote:

  
> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
> humans (Adam and his progeny)?
 
  According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God because 
there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of uninterrupted 
flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded little twit, I'd 
expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who 
created the universe, however even if it's true it leaves open one question, 
does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?      John K Clark    See what's 
on my new list at  Extropolis
   xtq 
  
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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Brent Meeker]

On 7/4/2022 7:27 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:


[*Philip Benjamin*]

Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and 
logical conclusion. The universe /as is/, is all that can be observed. 
Scientists have to accept with humility the limitations of finite 
minds to understand and explore the invisible and ponder over what is 
not subject to sense perceptions. Let the philosophers do that.


   Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the 
REVELATIONS from the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets 
and the Apostles make unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS 
from */Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural/*).


The same "unique" claim made for  Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura 
Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, 
Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, 
Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, 
Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, Camaxtli, 
Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, 
Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn, 
Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, 
Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, 
Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, 
Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, 
Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, 
Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, 
Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, 
Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, 
Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, 
Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, 
Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, 
Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, 
Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, 
Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, 
Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, 
Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, 
Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, 
Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, 
Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, 
Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, 
Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus.


"Theology: An effort to explain the unknowable
by putting it into terms of the not worth knowing"
    --- H.L. Mencken

"If atheists repudiate traditional faith it is not only because this 
faith is in contrast with the affirmations of believers themselves, with 
reason that denies the idea of God, but because they have understood 
that false dogmas go against true morality, against the social demands 
of the world we live in. The belief in God is not only a simple 
illusion, a purely theoretical error. It misrepresents the practical 
direction of life by orienting it in a chimerical direction. It goes 
against the social realty, against the essential needs of mankind which 
are the primary motor and the ultimate goal of every morality".

    --- Prosper Alfaric, professor of theology at the Sorbonne

How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you are born,
the local religion always turns out to be the true one.
 --- Richard Dawkins

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

All self-referentially declared truth. 

LC

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 7:22:19 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:

> Acknowledging the Perfection of our Lord 
>
> No change should there be in the creation of Allah [Quran 30:30] 
> *Mission of the Messengers 
>  - XXIX * 
>
>
> 
>
>
> *Abstract *
> *To do تَسْبِيحَ of Allah means to acknowledge, declare, and/or celebrate 
> that Allah is absolutely perfect. **Allah creates perfectly and governs 
> excellently. We humans need to acknowledge and appreciate this fact, and 
> consequently submit to **The Right Religion (الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ). *
>
>
> *Full Text *
> *The Quran informs us that those who believe and do righteous deeds / acts 
> of reform (آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ), their Lord will guide them, 
> due to their faith, to the Gardens of bounty, bliss, delight, pleasure, et 
> al (جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ). Upon experiencing the perfection of the Gardens 
> of the Hereafter, they will exclaim:*  
>
> https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2018/10/acknowledging-perfection-of-our-lord.html
>  
>
> On 04-Jul-2022, at 7:20 PM, John Clark  wrote:
>
> 
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
> *> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
>> humans (Adam and his progeny)?*
>
>
> According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God 
> because there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of 
> uninterrupted flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded 
> little twit, I'd expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient 
> omnipotent being who created the universe, however even if it's true it 
> leaves open one question, does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?  
>   John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
> 
> xtq
>
>
>  
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

What utter piffle. Your statement about 1 + 1 is ridiculous. The number 
.9... endlessly repeating is equal to 1. Why? well write this as

x = .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009 + ...

and then

x = .9 + .1( .9 + .09 + .009 + .0009 + ...) = .9 + .1x

so then

.9x = .9 > x = 1

Don't you have anything of greater intellectual depth to actually think 
about?

LC

On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 3:14:11 PM UTC-5 medinuclear wrote:

> [*Philip Benjamin*]
>
> Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and 
> logical conclusion. The universe *as is*, is all that can be observed. 
> Scientists have to accept with humility the limitations of finite minds to 
> understand and explore the invisible and ponder over what is not subject to 
> sense perceptions. Let the philosophers do that. 
>
>Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the REVELATIONS 
> from the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles 
> make unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS from *Adonai (plural) 
> YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural*). [Abraham was a PAGAN worshipping 
> his own family deities.  Only one man/woman in only one nation in one 
> region of the world can be chosen to bring forth the ONE final REVELATION. 
> Here the claim of the Scriptures of the Prophets & Apostles is that the 
> Almighty is mighty enough to be a human zygote planted in a womb (virgin to 
> be clear on the identity) to bring forth  the divine in human form (at a 
> particular place Bethlehem as promised aforetime), for the precise purpose 
> of cancelling the universal Death Sentence (entropy) necessarily imposed on 
> the universe by the vicarious death of the Sentencer followed by 
> Resurrection.  Now that is the crux of Mosaic sacrifices (types) and 
> Messianic crucifixion (anti-type). That is the crux of revelatory Theology 
> also. That does not belong to science, but it belongs to scientists also in 
> the same way as it is to ALL—men and women alike. . If it is untrue, it 
> does not matter. If it is true, nothing else should matter. 1 + 1 = 2 is 
> the only truth, but 1 + 1 = 2.000….to the nth decimal place is only one 
> of infinite lies possible. 
>
> Leave that alone. Science has enough and more to meddle with the 
> observable universe. It cannot even define what a phone is!! It can only 
> experiment with it or on it. Incorrigible pride thy name is human heart! 
>
> *Philip Benjamin   *  
>
>  
>
> *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com  *On 
> Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, July 4, 2022 9:20 AM
> *To:* 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> *Cc:* Lawrence Crowell 
> *Subject:* Re: Before Big Bang What?
>
>  
>
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  wrote:
>
>  
>
> *> **I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose 
> of humans (Adam and his progeny)?*
>
>  
>
> According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God 
> because there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of 
> uninterrupted flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded 
> little twit, I'd expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient 
> omnipotent being who created the universe, however even if it's true it 
> leaves open one question, does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?  
>
>   John K Clark   
>
> .
>

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Brent Meeker]

Judaism at least teaches that one should do good because it's a virtue.  
No for rewards either in life or afterward.


Brent

On 7/4/2022 5:22 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:



  Acknowledging the Perfection of our Lord


No change should there be in the creation of Allah [Quran 30:30]
*Mission of the Messengers 
 - XXIX *





*/Abstract /*
/To do***تَسْبِيحَ *of Allah means to acknowledge, declare, and/or 
celebrate that Allah is absolutely perfect. //Allah creates perfectly 
and governs excellently. We humans need to acknowledge and appreciate 
this fact, and consequently submit to //The Right Religion (الدِّينُ 
الْقَيِّمُ). /



*/Full Text /*
/The Quran informs us that those who believe and do righteous deeds / 
acts of reform (آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ), their Lord will 
guide them, due to their faith, to the Gardens of bounty, bliss, 
delight, pleasure, et al (جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ). Upon experiencing the 
perfection of the Gardens of the Hereafter, they will exclaim:/
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2018/10/acknowledging-perfection-of-our-lord.html 




On 04-Jul-2022, at 7:20 PM, John Clark  wrote:


On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  
wrote:


/> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the
purpose of humans (Adam and his progeny)?/


According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God 
because there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream 
of uninterrupted flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a 
small minded little twit, I'd expect something a bit less 
mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who created the universe, 
however even if it's true it leaves open one question, does God ever 
ask Himself what His purpose is?
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


xtq


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.

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.


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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Samiya Illias]

Acknowledging the Perfection of our Lord 

No change should there be in the creation of Allah [Quran 30:30] 
Mission of the Messengers - XXIX  




Abstract 
To do تَسْبِيحَ of Allah means to acknowledge, declare, and/or celebrate that 
Allah is absolutely perfect. Allah creates perfectly and governs excellently. 
We humans need to acknowledge and appreciate this fact, and consequently submit 
to The Right Religion (الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ). 


Full Text 
The Quran informs us that those who believe and do righteous deeds / acts of 
reform (آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ), their Lord will guide them, due to 
their faith, to the Gardens of bounty, bliss, delight, pleasure, et al 
(جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ). Upon experiencing the perfection of the Gardens of the 
Hereafter, they will exclaim:  
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2018/10/acknowledging-perfection-of-our-lord.html
 

> On 04-Jul-2022, at 7:20 PM, John Clark  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  wrote:
>> 
>> > I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
>> > humans (Adam and his progeny)?
> 
> According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God because 
> there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of uninterrupted 
> flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded little twit, I'd 
> expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who 
> created the universe, however even if it's true it leaves open one question, 
> does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?  
>   John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> xtq
> 
> 
>  
> -- 
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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[John Clark]

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:14 PM Philip Benjamin 
wrote:

*>  unlike pagan religions of the world* [blah blah]


I don't get it, every post from you is about pagans, but pagans are almost
as dull and downright silly as Christians and Muslims.
John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

aad





>

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FW: Before Big Bang What?

[Philip Benjamin]

Typo: photon, not phone. Philip

From: general_the...@googlegroups.com<mailto:general_the...@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:general_the...@googlegroups.com>> On 
Behalf Of Philip Benjamin Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 3:15 PM
everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  
Subject: RE: Before Big Bang What?
[Philip Benjamin]
Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and logical 
conclusion. The universe as is, is all that can be observed. Scientists have to 
accept with humility the limitations of finite minds to understand and explore 
the invisible and ponder over what is not subject to sense perceptions. Let the 
philosophers do that.
   Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the REVELATIONS from 
the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles make 
unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS from Adonai (plural) YHWH 
(singular) Elohim (uni-plural). [Abraham was a PAGAN worshipping his own family 
deities.  Only one man/woman in only one nation in one region of the world can 
be chosen to bring forth the ONE final REVELATION. Here the claim of the 
Scriptures of the Prophets & Apostles is that the Almighty is mighty enough to 
be a human zygote planted in a womb (virgin to be clear on the identity) to 
bring forth  the divine in human form (at a particular place Bethlehem as 
promised aforetime), for the precise purpose of cancelling the universal Death 
Sentence (entropy) necessarily imposed on the universe by the vicarious death 
of the Sentencer followed by Resurrection.  Now that is the crux of Mosaic 
sacrifices (types) and Messianic crucifixion (anti-type). That is the crux of 
revelatory Theology also. That does not belong to science, but it belongs to 
scientists also in the same way as it is to ALL-men and women alike. . If it is 
untrue, it does not matter. If it is true, nothing else should matter. 1 + 1 = 
2 is the only truth, but 1 + 1 = 2.000to the nth decimal place is only 
one of infinite lies possible.
Leave that alone. Science has enough and more to meddle with the observable 
universe. It cannot even define what a phone is!! It can only experiment with 
it or on it. Incorrigible pride thy name is human heart!
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On 
Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 9:20 AM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>>
Cc: Lawrence Crowell 
mailto:goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias 
mailto:samiyaill...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
> humans (Adam and his progeny)?

According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God because 
there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of uninterrupted 
flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded little twit, I'd 
expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who 
created the universe, however even if it's true it leaves open one question, 
does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?
  John K Clark
.
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RE: Before Big Bang What?

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]
Science is about observation, experimentation, rational analysis and logical 
conclusion. The universe as is, is all that can be observed. Scientists have to 
accept with humility the limitations of finite minds to understand and explore 
the invisible and ponder over what is not subject to sense perceptions. Let the 
philosophers do that.
   Theology, unlike pagan religions of the world, is about the REVELATIONS from 
the Theos. The Scriptures of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles make 
unique claim that they are direct REVELATIONS from Adonai (plural) YHWH 
(singular) Elohim (uni-plural). [Abraham was a PAGAN worshipping his own family 
deities.  Only one man/woman in only one nation in one region of the world can 
be chosen to bring forth the ONE final REVELATION. Here the claim of the 
Scriptures of the Prophets & Apostles is that the Almighty is mighty enough to 
be a human zygote planted in a womb (virgin to be clear on the identity) to 
bring forth  the divine in human form (at a particular place Bethlehem as 
promised aforetime), for the precise purpose of cancelling the universal Death 
Sentence (entropy) necessarily imposed on the universe by the vicarious death 
of the Sentencer followed by Resurrection.  Now that is the crux of Mosaic 
sacrifices (types) and Messianic crucifixion (anti-type). That is the crux of 
revelatory Theology also. That does not belong to science, but it belongs to 
scientists also in the same way as it is to ALL-men and women alike. . If it is 
untrue, it does not matter. If it is true, nothing else should matter. 1 + 1 = 
2 is the only truth, but 1 + 1 = 2.000to the nth decimal place is only 
one of infinite lies possible.
Leave that alone. Science has enough and more to meddle with the observable 
universe. It cannot even define what a phone is!! It can only experiment with 
it or on it. Incorrigible pride thy name is human heart!
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, July 4, 2022 9:20 AM
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Cc: Lawrence Crowell 
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias 
mailto:samiyaill...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
> humans (Adam and his progeny)?

According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God because 
there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of uninterrupted 
flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded little twit, I'd 
expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient omnipotent being who 
created the universe, however even if it's true it leaves open one question, 
does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?
  John K Clark
.

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

You must be true to yourself, and if you are bored shitless, with such 
speculation of application of the physics we know, so be it! The Hugh Everett 
thing is so fascinating in itself, that it basically, if there ever a scintilla 
of evidence, this would itself change civilization and religion (and that's no 
lie!). I am not sure how such a global culture would change but change it 
would. Thanks for the physics insight, much appreciated, LC. 
For me interestingly enough, physicist and scifi writer Greg Benford wrote the 
novel REWRITE, based on Everett's many worlds and the protagonist is a man who 
keeps getting 're-born' on his 16rh birthday, every time he dies. To not spoil 
the plot, because he always dies as a middle aged man, he is able to ultimately 
change history. He is not alone in his journey. 
Much Thanks!


-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 8:11 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

I do not waste my neural energy on these idle speculations. I do not engage in 
silly ideas of Kardashev civilization types, Dyson spheres, Tipler-like 
cosmo-eschatology and so forth. I suppose those who have reached some celebrity 
status can afford to do this, but in the end it is all stuff we might talk 
about over scotch and cigars.

The only possibility I see is that within the Everettian Many Worlds 
Interpretation all systems are quantum superposed amplitudes, and as such have 
multiple drafts in decoherent sets. So we may have an infinite or near infinite 
number of lives. Quantum interpretations impose ancillary physical axioms or 
postulates that are not provable or demonstrable within quantum physics. So I 
do not particularly make much of any argument along these lines.

LC

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:50:36 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

I would opt for the concept of an afterlife being plausible via physics, but it 
sure ain't around to soothe us today! The Religions, as I term it, seek "the 
keys to the kingdom," as a means to hold over and control the poor peasant. It 
works on rich peasants too, I will add. You may agree with Gloria Steinem, but 
honestly, she was not, nor is not, such a brain, especially for knowledge of 
the sciences. Meaning yeah, she expresses your view, aptly, or why quote her? 
But for things cosmological, she was never that interested. Never that 
informed. Let me offer this up for you to utterly reject because you feel it to 
be utterly rejectable, contemptable, a fraud, a lie, etc, 
This is from physicist Guilio Prisco from 3 years ago. Background. He was a 
computer guy at CERN and later did the same for the ESA. His peeps in Italy 
were communists so he wasn't raised in The Church. 
https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6
The dude is sharp enough to screen physics papers for items he finds of 
interest, that I would blindly, ignore. This assembly of essays about the 
Lectures on the Study of Infrared Structure and Gauge Theory (put together by 
A. Strominger at Harvard), was also Hawking's last paper. NYT' science writer 
Dennis Overbye had commented:
"“Cleansed of its abstract mathematics, the paper is an ode to memory, loss and 
the oldest of human yearnings, the desire for transcendence… Few of us, 
including Dr. Hawking, ever harbored the hope that solving the information 
paradox would bring back our parents…”
George Musser had also commented on the publication and ramification.
I will concede that the Harvard guy has zero interest in all this, and having 
said that, I said, we follow the physics, anyway. Similar explanations have 
come from Tipler (proven wrong in 1999 Standard Model), and Hans Moravec, (Mind 
Children & Robot) still standing, that such is not impossible, but that as of 
today? Forget about it! So, thus, the proclamation that "It's on your permanent 
record!" from teachers of the past, was no idle threat.  
Here at least, in principle is where the information of the universe goes, 
including us, for storage. The Database, Supreme. So, where's payoff, you would 
be correct to ask? A Russian futurist philosopher has come up with this. A 
purpose for the Dyson sphere. I would conclude that this project will require a 
large budget and is quite long term. 
https://bigthink.com/hard-science/dyson-spheres/

I mean, if this holds together, it may be one of the goals of every intelligent 
species and providing living space for both the biological and simulated people 
from the past. I wonder if this could explain The Fermi Paradox? Being all 
settled at home, chatting away in Virch? Where might we look for such a real 
estate venture? I suggest based on their longevity, that red dwarf stars will 
be a tasty target because though meager in power compared to the sun, these 
suckers last 2-10 trillion years, if the astronomers are correct?
Well, there's a Go for you. It's basically not a What

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Understood, LC, but even statistically this'd be a one-off even, maybe 13.7 
billion years ago. An event that occurred after trillions or quadrillions of 
relative terms. Yes, you've cast your physics pearls before this swine, and so 
be it. So, I will scratch off the BB. 
Now if the Smolin auto-didactic paper holds up, we still seemingly have another 
cosmic mystery to solve. In any case this study may not have a budget to pursue 
to this inquiry. It was funded by Microsoft last year, so who knows?
Happy 4th LC


-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2022 7:51 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

No Boltzmann brains (BBs). The instability of the de Sitter (dS) vacuum makes 
the probability for BBs very small. The problem with the BB is that if they 
exist we may not know whether we are BBs, or that I am a BB and all other 
people are phantasms of my mind. The problem is that if the dS vacuum were 
eternal the integrated probability for a BB is one, they are necessary. But, it 
the dS vacuum has finite time and is unstable, even if it can remain for 
10^{10^{10^{10}}} years this reduces the probability of a BB from unity or one 
to near zero.
LC

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

It may not be "God" but it may, more significantly, be mind. 
If its a Boltzmann Brain who woke with false memories, and was the only BB in 
quintillions of years to successfully open and sustain itself (as has been 
proposed) I say, who am I to be disinterested, disrespectful, or reject it, 
him, her, them? The point would be, that it seems interested in what you do for 
a living, what an astrophysicist does to earn a paycheck, and this may be 
sufficient. It reacts and responds, apparently. This may also have impact on 
how fast information can actually travel, or what detects what some people are 
doing? 
I won't get into the probability that UFO's is the BB is  interacting with 
subjects by giving us an anthropomorphic symbolism to gaze upon? My feeling is 
that people are more likely lying to get attention, than anything else, because 
lying works in so many other areas of human activity, so why not simply lie? 
Ball lightning created by piezo-electric geology thus becomes an alien 
intervention. 
I am primate-enough to enjoy the idea of a big mind, so for "God" us beggars 
can't be choosers, especially if He's got the time and interest to get things 
mended? For those who need this idea like a fork to the eye, I say, wonderful. 
Glad to hear that you have your emotions whipped into shape, because it sounds 
very healthy. No Problemo. Rock on! 



-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:52 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though that at 
a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise or with 
Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and becomes 
sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory to 
propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. This is 
actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I think 
automatically points to some sort of God.
LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 7:55:20 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for everything, 
no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied research inquiry. If 
God wills it and is the cause for everything than why study it? On the Udder 
Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in your path, strike him down."  
Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, don't let me stop you. 
For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because its 
less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I present 
here. https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902

With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth your 
while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends itself 
nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the traditional 
religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In religiosity, it seems 
closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the fellow Heston chatted 
with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty good for 1956. Also, as I 
have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, as an atheist are in this 
fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," because you study what the big 
mind does, up close. It may enjoy what you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot 
covered peasants, such as myself, busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch 
cause me pig gave sour milk!" 
As always suspicious of me neighb

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[John Clark]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:43 PM Samiya Illias  wrote:

*> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of
> humans (Adam and his progeny)?*


According to the religious, the purpose of humanity is to praise God
because there is nothing God loves more than an endless 24/7 stream of
uninterrupted flattery. To my mind that makes God seem like a small minded
little twit, I'd expect something a bit less mundane from an omniscient
omnipotent being who created the universe, however even if it's true it
leaves open one question, does God ever ask Himself what His purpose is?
  John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at  Extropolis

xtq

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

I do not waste my neural energy on these idle speculations. I do not engage 
in silly ideas of Kardashev civilization types, Dyson spheres, Tipler-like 
cosmo-eschatology and so forth. I suppose those who have reached some 
celebrity status can afford to do this, but in the end it is all stuff we 
might talk about over scotch and cigars.

The only possibility I see is that within the Everettian Many Worlds 
Interpretation all systems are quantum superposed amplitudes, and as such 
have multiple drafts in decoherent sets. So we may have an infinite or near 
infinite number of lives. Quantum interpretations impose ancillary physical 
axioms or postulates that are not provable or demonstrable within quantum 
physics. So I do not particularly make much of any argument along these 
lines.

LC

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 5:50:36 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

> I would opt for the concept of an afterlife being plausible via physics, but 
> it sure ain't around to soothe us today! The Religions, as I term it, 
> seek "the keys to the kingdom," as a means to hold over and control the 
> poor peasant. It works on rich peasants too, I will add. You may agree with 
> Gloria Steinem, but honestly, she was not, nor is not, such a brain, 
> especially for knowledge of the sciences. Meaning yeah, she expresses your 
> view, aptly, or why quote her? But for things cosmological, she was never 
> that interested. Never that informed. Let me offer this up for you to 
> utterly reject because you feel it to be utterly rejectable, contemptable, 
> a fraud, a lie, etc,  
>
> This is from physicist Guilio Prisco from 3 years ago. Background. He was 
> a computer guy at CERN and later did the same for the ESA. His peeps in 
> Italy were communists so he wasn't raised in The Church. 
>
> https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6
>
> The dude is sharp enough to screen physics papers for items he finds of 
> interest, that I would blindly, ignore. This assembly of essays about the 
> Lectures on the Study of Infrared Structure and Gauge Theory (put together 
> by A. Strominger at Harvard), was also Hawking's last paper. NYT' science 
> writer Dennis Overbye had commented:
>
> "“Cleansed of its abstract mathematics, the paper is an ode to memory, 
> loss and the oldest of human yearnings, the desire for transcendence… Few 
> of us, including Dr. Hawking, ever harbored the hope that solving the 
> information paradox would bring back our parents…”
>
> George Musser had also commented on the publication and ramification.
>
> I will concede that the Harvard guy has zero interest in all this, and 
> having said that, I said, we follow the physics, anyway. Similar 
> explanations have come from Tipler (proven wrong in 1999 Standard Model), 
> and Hans Moravec, (Mind Children & Robot) still standing, that such is not 
> impossible, but that as of today? Forget about it! So, thus, the 
> proclamation that "It's on your permanent record!" from teachers of the 
> past, was no idle threat.  
>
> Here at least, in principle is where the information of the universe goes, 
> including us, for storage. The Database, Supreme. So, where's payoff, you 
> would be correct to ask? A Russian futurist philosopher has come up with 
> this. A purpose for the Dyson sphere. I would conclude that this project 
> will require a large budget and is quite long term. 
>
> https://bigthink.com/hard-science/dyson-spheres/
>
> I mean, if this holds together, it may be one of the goals of every 
> intelligent species and providing living space for both the biological and 
> simulated people from the past. I wonder if this could explain The Fermi 
> Paradox? Being all settled at home, chatting away in Virch? Where might we 
> look for such a real estate venture? I suggest based on their longevity, 
> that red dwarf stars will be a tasty target because though meager in power 
> compared to the sun, these suckers last 2-10 trillion years, if the 
> astronomers are correct?
>
> Well, there's a Go for you. It's basically not a What Would Jesus Do, but 
> instead a How would Jesus do it?? 
>
> For me, you'd need not to be "Saved", but rather you are being saved, as 
> in RAID 5,000,000. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Brent Meeker 
> To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 4:33 pm
> Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?
>
> "It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now 
> in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward 
> systems don't try to make it posthumous."
>  Gloria Steinem
>
> On 7/3/2022 5:42 AM, Lawrence Crow

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

No Boltzmann brains (BBs). The instability of the de Sitter (dS) vacuum 
makes the probability for BBs very small. The problem with the BB is that 
if they exist we may not know whether we are BBs, or that I am a BB and all 
other people are phantasms of my mind. The problem is that if the dS vacuum 
were eternal the integrated probability for a BB is one, they are 
necessary. But, it the dS vacuum has finite time and is unstable, even if 
it can remain for 10^{10^{10^{10}}} years this reduces the probability of a 
BB from unity or one to near zero.

LC

On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

> It may not be "God" but it may, more significantly, be mind.  
>
> If its a Boltzmann Brain who woke with false memories, and was the only BB 
> in quintillions of years to successfully open and sustain itself (as has 
> been proposed) I say, who am I to be disinterested, disrespectful, or 
> reject it, him, her, them? The point would be, that it seems interested in 
> what you do for a living, what an astrophysicist does to earn a paycheck, 
> and this may be sufficient. It reacts and responds, apparently. This may 
> also have impact on how fast information can actually travel, or what 
> detects what some people are doing? 
>
> I won't get into the probability that UFO's is the BB is  interacting with 
> subjects by giving us an anthropomorphic symbolism to gaze upon? My feeling 
> is that people are more likely lying to get attention, than anything else, 
> because lying works in so many other areas of human activity, so why not 
> simply lie? Ball lightning created by piezo-electric geology thus becomes 
> an alien intervention. 
>
> I am primate-enough to enjoy the idea of a big mind, so for "God" us 
> beggars can't be choosers, especially if He's got the time and interest to 
> get things mended? For those who need this idea like a fork to the eye, I 
> say, wonderful. Glad to hear that you have your emotions whipped into 
> shape, because it sounds very healthy. No Problemo. Rock on! 
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Lawrence Crowell 
> To: Everything List 
> Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:52 am
> Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?
>
> I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though 
> that at a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise 
> or with Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and 
> becomes sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory 
> to propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. 
> This is actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I 
> think automatically points to some sort of God. 
>
> LC
>
> On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 7:55:20 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>
> To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
> understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for 
> everything, no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied 
> research inquiry. If God wills it and is the cause for everything than why 
> study it? On the Udder Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in 
> your path, strike him down."  Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, 
> don't let me stop you.  
>
> For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because 
> its less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
>
> Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I 
> present here. 
> https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902
>
> With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth 
> your while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends 
> itself nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the 
> traditional religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In 
> religiosity, it seems closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the 
> fellow Heston chatted with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty 
> good for 1956. Also, as I have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, 
> as an atheist are in this fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," 
> because you study what the big mind does, up close. It may enjoy what 
> you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot covered peasants, such as myself, 
> busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch cause me pig gave sour milk!" 
>
> As always suspicious of me neighbor,
> Spud (sniffling)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Lawrence Crowell 
> To: Everything List 
> Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2022 10:07 am
> Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?
>
> In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem 
> etc)?&quo

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I would opt for the concept of an afterlife being plausible via physics, but it 
sure ain't around to soothe us today! The Religions, as I term it, seek "the 
keys to the kingdom," as a means to hold over and control the poor peasant. It 
works on rich peasants too, I will add. You may agree with Gloria Steinem, but 
honestly, she was not, nor is not, such a brain, especially for knowledge of 
the sciences. Meaning yeah, she expresses your view, aptly, or why quote her? 
But for things cosmological, she was never that interested. Never that 
informed. Let me offer this up for you to utterly reject because you feel it to 
be utterly rejectable, contemptable, a fraud, a lie, etc, 
This is from physicist Guilio Prisco from 3 years ago. Background. He was a 
computer guy at CERN and later did the same for the ESA. His peeps in Italy 
were communists so he wasn't raised in The Church. 
https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6
The dude is sharp enough to screen physics papers for items he finds of 
interest, that I would blindly, ignore. This assembly of essays about the 
Lectures on the Study of Infrared Structure and Gauge Theory (put together by 
A. Strominger at Harvard), was also Hawking's last paper. NYT' science writer 
Dennis Overbye had commented:
"“Cleansed of its abstract mathematics, the paper is an ode to memory, loss and 
the oldest of human yearnings, the desire for transcendence… Few of us, 
including Dr. Hawking, ever harbored the hope that solving the information 
paradox would bring back our parents…”
George Musser had also commented on the publication and ramification.
I will concede that the Harvard guy has zero interest in all this, and having 
said that, I said, we follow the physics, anyway. Similar explanations have 
come from Tipler (proven wrong in 1999 Standard Model), and Hans Moravec, (Mind 
Children & Robot) still standing, that such is not impossible, but that as of 
today? Forget about it! So, thus, the proclamation that "It's on your permanent 
record!" from teachers of the past, was no idle threat.  
Here at least, in principle is where the information of the universe goes, 
including us, for storage. The Database, Supreme. So, where's payoff, you would 
be correct to ask? A Russian futurist philosopher has come up with this. A 
purpose for the Dyson sphere. I would conclude that this project will require a 
large budget and is quite long term. 
https://bigthink.com/hard-science/dyson-spheres/

I mean, if this holds together, it may be one of the goals of every intelligent 
species and providing living space for both the biological and simulated people 
from the past. I wonder if this could explain The Fermi Paradox? Being all 
settled at home, chatting away in Virch? Where might we look for such a real 
estate venture? I suggest based on their longevity, that red dwarf stars will 
be a tasty target because though meager in power compared to the sun, these 
suckers last 2-10 trillion years, if the astronomers are correct?
Well, there's a Go for you. It's basically not a What Would Jesus Do, but 
instead a How would Jesus do it?? 
For me, you'd need not to be "Saved", but rather you are being saved, as in 
RAID 5,000,000. 








-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

 "It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in 
exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems 
don't try to make it posthumous."
      Gloria Steinem
 
 On 7/3/2022 5:42 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
  
 
There was no Adam. The story of Adam and Eve etc. is pure myth. It is all a big 
pigeon drop scam. The pigeon drop scam is where somebody convinces another 
there is a grand some of money to be had if the person just renders 1/10 that 
amount. Of course, if the dupe pays his money nothing is exchanged. In the case 
of monotheism, the pigeon drop is about agreeing to certain terms claimed to be 
laid down by some infinite invisible being beyond the universe who says to 
agree means great eternal rewards. There is of course the negative part that to 
not agree brings eternal agony. This is a "mind forged manacle," to use Willian 
Blake's poetic line, that has enslaved humanity for centuries. We need to break 
free of these preposterous things and start living in more realistic and 
functional ways. 
  LC
 
   On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 8:43:15 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:
  
I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of humans 
(Adam and his progeny)? 
 
 
 
 
 > On 03-Jul-2022, at 5:55 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 >  wrote: 
 > 
 > In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?" 
 
  -- 
 You received this message because you a

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

It may not be "God" but it may, more significantly, be mind. 
If its a Boltzmann Brain who woke with false memories, and was the only BB in 
quintillions of years to successfully open and sustain itself (as has been 
proposed) I say, who am I to be disinterested, disrespectful, or reject it, 
him, her, them? The point would be, that it seems interested in what you do for 
a living, what an astrophysicist does to earn a paycheck, and this may be 
sufficient. It reacts and responds, apparently. This may also have impact on 
how fast information can actually travel, or what detects what some people are 
doing? 
I won't get into the probability that UFO's is the BB is  interacting with 
subjects by giving us an anthropomorphic symbolism to gaze upon? My feeling is 
that people are more likely lying to get attention, than anything else, because 
lying works in so many other areas of human activity, so why not simply lie? 
Ball lightning created by piezo-electric geology thus becomes an alien 
intervention. 
I am primate-enough to enjoy the idea of a big mind, so for "God" us beggars 
can't be choosers, especially if He's got the time and interest to get things 
mended? For those who need this idea like a fork to the eye, I say, wonderful. 
Glad to hear that you have your emotions whipped into shape, because it sounds 
very healthy. No Problemo. Rock on! 



-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:52 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though that at 
a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise or with 
Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and becomes 
sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory to 
propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. This is 
actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I think 
automatically points to some sort of God.
LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 7:55:20 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for everything, 
no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied research inquiry. If 
God wills it and is the cause for everything than why study it? On the Udder 
Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in your path, strike him down."  
Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, don't let me stop you. 
For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because its 
less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I present 
here. https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902

With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth your 
while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends itself 
nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the traditional 
religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In religiosity, it seems 
closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the fellow Heston chatted 
with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty good for 1956. Also, as I 
have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, as an atheist are in this 
fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," because you study what the big 
mind does, up close. It may enjoy what you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot 
covered peasants, such as myself, busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch 
cause me pig gave sour milk!" 
As always suspicious of me neighbor,Spud (sniffling)

-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2022 10:07 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?" It 
is similar to chasing the existential core down an infinite rabbit hole, maybe 
to become Dostoyevsky's underground man. There are no possible answers that can 
be rationally derived. Monotheist religions posit a disembodied conscious 
entity of infinite capacity, which because there is an infinite number of what 
might be called degrees of freedom virtually anything can be explained within 
the umbrella statement "God did it." 
There are no need for theological constructions. These ancient ideas are mythic 
narratives or so called wisdom literature meant to invoke metaphorical 
ideations. These things have nothing to do any scientific understanding. 
LC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 8:25:01 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:



Space: Before and Beyond
Abstract The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of 
the heavens and earth.  


Full Text 
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا 
فَاعِل

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I'd say that perhaps the purpose of Adam and his Rib was to produce 
(eventually) so as to fix the universe. Some sort of long term adjustment, like 
with robots that can get black holes to rotate faster?? Something that is so 
far above our current capabilities that its truly laughable. Speaking of laughs-
George Carlin said, "maybe the earth wanted plastic, and couldn't make plastic 
on its own so it had to produce people to make plastic?"
Adam and Eve is best expressed today as the waitress calling for Adam and Eve 
on a log! Two fried eggs on a sausage. For today, getting the species to 
survive is enough of a challenge. 


-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 8:42 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

There was no Adam. The story of Adam and Eve etc. is pure myth. It is all a big 
pigeon drop scam. The pigeon drop scam is where somebody convinces another 
there is a grand some of money to be had if the person just renders 1/10 that 
amount. Of course, if the dupe pays his money nothing is exchanged. In the case 
of monotheism, the pigeon drop is about agreeing to certain terms claimed to be 
laid down by some infinite invisible being beyond the universe who says to 
agree means great eternal rewards. There is of course the negative part that to 
not agree brings eternal agony. This is a "mind forged manacle," to use Willian 
Blake's poetic line, that has enslaved humanity for centuries. We need to break 
free of these preposterous things and start living in more realistic and 
functional ways.
LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 8:43:15 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:

I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of humans 
(Adam and his progeny)? 




> On 03-Jul-2022, at 5:55 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?"

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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Brent Meeker]

"It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something 
now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their 
reward systems don't try to make it posthumous."

     Gloria Steinem

On 7/3/2022 5:42 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
There was no Adam. The story of Adam and Eve etc. is pure myth. It is 
all a big pigeon drop scam. The pigeon drop scam is where somebody 
convinces another there is a grand some of money to be had if the 
person just renders 1/10 that amount. Of course, if the dupe pays his 
money nothing is exchanged. In the case of monotheism, the pigeon drop 
is about agreeing to certain terms claimed to be laid down by some 
infinite invisible being beyond the universe who says to agree means 
great eternal rewards. There is of course the negative part that to 
not agree brings eternal agony. This is a "mind forged manacle," to 
use Willian Blake's poetic line, that has enslaved humanity for 
centuries. We need to break free of these preposterous things and 
start living in more realistic and functional ways.


LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 8:43:15 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:

I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the
purpose of humans (Adam and his progeny)?




> On 03-Jul-2022, at 5:55 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List
 wrote:
>
> In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha
Shem etc)?"

--
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Groups "Everything List" group.
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.


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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

I remember seeing this paper. I have not yet read it. I will say though 
that at a point where a system ceases to be Markovian, such as white noise 
or with Gaussian distribution of signals that are not correlated, and 
becomes sub-Markovian that you have the prospect for fluctuations or memory 
to propagate into the future. Fluctuations now have kurtosis of some sort. 
This is actually how evolution works. This is though not something that I 
think automatically points to some sort of God.

LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 7:55:20 PM UTC-5 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

> To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
> understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for 
> everything, no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied 
> research inquiry. If God wills it and is the cause for everything than why 
> study it? On the Udder Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in 
> your path, strike him down."  Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, 
> don't let me stop you.  
>
> For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because 
> its less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
>
> Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I 
> present here. 
> https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902
>
> With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth 
> your while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends 
> itself nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the 
> traditional religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In 
> religiosity, it seems closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the 
> fellow Heston chatted with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty 
> good for 1956. Also, as I have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, 
> as an atheist are in this fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," 
> because you study what the big mind does, up close. It may enjoy what 
> you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot covered peasants, such as myself, 
> busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch cause me pig gave sour milk!" 
>
> As always suspicious of me neighbor,
> Spud (sniffling)
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Lawrence Crowell 
> To: Everything List 
> Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2022 10:07 am
> Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?
>
> In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem 
> etc)?" It is similar to chasing the existential core down an infinite 
> rabbit hole, maybe to become Dostoyevsky's underground man. There are no 
> possible answers that can be rationally derived. Monotheist religions posit 
> a disembodied conscious entity of infinite capacity, which because there is 
> an infinite number of what might be called degrees of freedom virtually 
> anything can be explained within the umbrella statement "God did it."  
>
> There are no need for theological constructions. These ancient ideas are 
> mythic narratives or so called wisdom literature meant to invoke 
> metaphorical ideations. These things have nothing to do any scientific 
> understanding. 
>
> LC
>
> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 8:25:01 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:
>
>
> Space: Before and Beyond 
> *Abstract *
> The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of the 
> heavens and earth.  
>
>
>
> *Full Text *
>
> وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
>
> لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن 
> كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ
>
> Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that 
> is between! 
> If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have 
> taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! 
> [Al-Quran 21:16 <https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/21/16/>-17 
> <https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/21/17/>, Translation: Yusuf Ali]
>
>
> According to these ayaat, there is something, some place other than the 
> heavens and the earth, which has existed since before it. It is outside 
> what we call Space. In fact, regarding space, it states: 
>
> وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
>
> And the heaven We constructed it with strength, and indeed, We (are) 
> surely (its) Expanders. 
> [Al-Quran 51:47 <https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/47/>]
>
>
> Surah ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) again states that these heavens and earth are 
> not without purpose:
>
> وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
>
> مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا 
> يَعْل

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

There was no Adam. The story of Adam and Eve etc. is pure myth. It is all a 
big pigeon drop scam. The pigeon drop scam is where somebody convinces 
another there is a grand some of money to be had if the person just renders 
1/10 that amount. Of course, if the dupe pays his money nothing is 
exchanged. In the case of monotheism, the pigeon drop is about agreeing to 
certain terms claimed to be laid down by some infinite invisible being 
beyond the universe who says to agree means great eternal rewards. There is 
of course the negative part that to not agree brings eternal agony. This is 
a "mind forged manacle," to use Willian Blake's poetic line, that has 
enslaved humanity for centuries. We need to break free of these 
preposterous things and start living in more realistic and functional ways.

LC

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 8:43:15 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:

> I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of 
> humans (Adam and his progeny)? 
>
>
>
>
> > On 03-Jul-2022, at 5:55 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > 
> > In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem 
> etc)?"
>

-- 
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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Samiya Illias]

I think a more immediate and useful question is: What is the purpose of humans 
(Adam and his progeny)? 




> On 03-Jul-2022, at 5:55 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?"

-- 
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Re: Before Big Bang What?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

To my way of thinking, God as an answer, gets in scientists path to 
understanding how things work or interact? If God is an answer for everything, 
no wonder the Muslim's Insh Allah (God wills it) satisfied research inquiry. If 
God wills it and is the cause for everything than why study it? On the Udder 
Hand sez da Kozmic Kow, "If the Buddha stands in your path, strike him down."  
Meaning, if you got a better way, friend, don't let me stop you. 
For myself? I always seek what researchers say first most of time, because its 
less vague than the religious stuff and thus, more precise. 
Having said that there are a couple of stumble upons, one of which I present 
here. https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.03902

With this LC, you'll get to attack Smollin which may or may not be worth your 
while? But it is not the standard model of cosmology either and lends itself 
nicely, to the idea of a "big mind." It may not please the traditional 
religions, but who says they get to have all the fun? In religiosity, it seems 
closer to Brahma in the Hindu faith. Or, perhaps, the fellow Heston chatted 
with in 10 Com. "The light of eternal mind." Pretty good for 1956. Also, as I 
have noted before, if this is the fact, then you, as an atheist are in this 
fashion are one of the "holiest of humanity," because you study what the big 
mind does, up close. It may enjoy what you're doing as opposed to grubby, snot 
covered peasants, such as myself, busy claiming that "me neighbors a witch 
cause me pig gave sour milk!" 
As always suspicious of me neighbor,Spud (sniffling)

-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2022 10:07 am
Subject: Re: Before Big Bang What?

In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem etc)?" It 
is similar to chasing the existential core down an infinite rabbit hole, maybe 
to become Dostoyevsky's underground man. There are no possible answers that can 
be rationally derived. Monotheist religions posit a disembodied conscious 
entity of infinite capacity, which because there is an infinite number of what 
might be called degrees of freedom virtually anything can be explained within 
the umbrella statement "God did it." 
There are no need for theological constructions. These ancient ideas are mythic 
narratives or so called wisdom literature meant to invoke metaphorical 
ideations. These things have nothing to do any scientific understanding. 
LC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 8:25:01 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:



Space: Before and Beyond
Abstract The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of 
the heavens and earth.  


Full Text 
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا 
فَاعِلِينَ
Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is 
between! If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely 
have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! 
[Al-Quran 21:16-17, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


According to these ayaat, there is something, some place other than the heavens 
and the earth, which has existed since before it. It is outside what we call 
Space. In fact, regarding space, it states: 
وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
And the heaven We constructed it with strength, and indeed, We (are) surely 
(its) Expanders. [Al-Quran 51:47]


Surah ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) again states that these heavens and earth are not 
without purpose:
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) 
sport: We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not 
understand. [Al-Quran 44:38-39, Translation: Yusuf Ali]

The Quran mentions the HOW of the creation of the heavens and earth, but it 
focuses on the WHY. While it is fascinating to wonder about the HOW, it is 
important to focus on the purpose and consequent final outcome: 
الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ 
وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ 
هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ
رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ مَن تُدْخِلِ النَّارَ فَقَدْ أَخْزَيْتَهُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ 
مِنْ أَنصَارٍ
Those who remember Allah standing, and sitting and on their sides and they 
reflect on (the) creation (of) the heavens and the earth, "Our Lord, not You 
have created this (in) vain. Glory be to You, so save us (from the) punishment 
(of) the Fire. Our Lord, indeed [You] whom You admit (to) the Fire then surely 
You (have) disgraced him, and not for the wrongdoers (are) any helpers. 
[Al-Quran 3:191-193, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


For more on purpose, pleas

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

In the end one can ask, "What is the purpose of God (Allah or Ha Shem 
etc)?" It is similar to chasing the existential core down an infinite 
rabbit hole, maybe to become Dostoyevsky's underground man. There are no 
possible answers that can be rationally derived. Monotheist religions posit 
a disembodied conscious entity of infinite capacity, which because there is 
an infinite number of what might be called degrees of freedom virtually 
anything can be explained within the umbrella statement "God did it." 

There are no need for theological constructions. These ancient ideas are 
mythic narratives or so called wisdom literature meant to invoke 
metaphorical ideations. These things have nothing to do any scientific 
understanding. 

LC

On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 8:25:01 PM UTC-5 Samiya wrote:

>
> Space: Before and Beyond
> *Abstract *
> The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of the 
> heavens and earth.  
>
>
>
> *Full Text *
>
> وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
>
> لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن 
> كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ
>
> Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that 
> is between! 
> If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have 
> taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! 
> [Al-Quran 21:16 -17 
> , Translation: Yusuf Ali]
>
>
> According to these ayaat, there is something, some place other than the 
> heavens and the earth, which has existed since before it. It is outside 
> what we call Space. In fact, regarding space, it states: 
>
> وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
>
> And the heaven We constructed it with strength, and indeed, We (are) 
> surely (its) Expanders. 
> [Al-Quran 51:47 ]
>
>
> Surah ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) again states that these heavens and earth are 
> not without purpose:
>
> وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
>
> مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا 
> يَعْلَمُونَ
>
> We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in 
> (idle) sport: 
> We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not 
> understand. 
> [Al-Quran 44:38 -39 
> , Translation: Yusuf Ali]
>
>
> The Quran mentions the HOW of the creation of the heavens and earth, but 
> it focuses on the WHY. While it is fascinating to wonder about the HOW, it 
> is important to focus on the purpose and consequent final outcome: 
>
> الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ 
> وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ 
> هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ
>
> رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ مَن تُدْخِلِ النَّارَ فَقَدْ أَخْزَيْتَهُ وَمَا 
> لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ
>
> Those who remember Allah standing, and sitting and on their sides and they 
> reflect on (the) creation (of) the heavens and the earth, "Our Lord, not 
> You have created this (in) vain. Glory be to You, so save us (from the) 
> punishment (of) the Fire. 
> Our Lord, indeed [You] whom You admit (to) the Fire then surely You (have) 
> disgraced him, and not for the wrongdoers (are) any helpers. 
> [Al-Quran 3:191 -193 
> , Translation: Yusuf Ali]
>
>
>
> For more on purpose, please read Teleology: A purpose-built Universe? 
> 
>  
>
>
> *Science *
> Scientist do not know if there was something before the 'Big Bang', the 
> most popular theory about the origin of our Universe. Wikipedia states 
> :  
>
> Pre–Big Bang physics (PBBP) are physics which can be speculated to have 
> existed prior to the Big Bang. PBBP may have been radically different from 
> the current laws of physics.
> Although theoretical speculation on possible PBBP has only begun, research 
> into the field could hold incredible implications for the makeup of the 
> universe, and numerous possibilities beyond the limit of the current laws 
> of physics in possible existence prior to the Big Bang.
>
> https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2019/01/space-before-and-beyond.html 
>
>
> On 01-Jul-2022, at 2:29 AM, Lawrence Crowell  
> wrote:
>
> I do not want to get into this terribly much, not because of lack of 
> interest (this is connected to what I work on) but more because a sense of 
> futility. There is one difficulty with all of this; inflation stretched 
> space into a homogenous space that bears little data concerning what came 
> before inflation. Any fluctuation associated with 

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Samiya Illias]

Space: Before and Beyond
Abstract 
The Quran hints on the existence of something prior to the creation of the 
heavens and earth.  



Full Text 

وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ

لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا 
فَاعِلِينَ

Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is 
between! 
If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken 
it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)! 
[Al-Quran 21:16-17, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


According to these ayaat, there is something, some place other than the heavens 
and the earth, which has existed since before it. It is outside what we call 
Space. In fact, regarding space, it states: 

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

And the heaven We constructed it with strength, and indeed, We (are) surely 
(its) Expanders. 
[Al-Quran 51:47]


Surah ad-Dukhan (The Smoke) again states that these heavens and earth are not 
without purpose:

وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ

مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) 
sport: 
We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not understand. 
[Al-Quran 44:38-39, Translation: Yusuf Ali]


The Quran mentions the HOW of the creation of the heavens and earth, but it 
focuses on the WHY. While it is fascinating to wonder about the HOW, it is 
important to focus on the purpose and consequent final outcome: 

الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ 
وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ 
هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ مَن تُدْخِلِ النَّارَ فَقَدْ أَخْزَيْتَهُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ 
مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

Those who remember Allah standing, and sitting and on their sides and they 
reflect on (the) creation (of) the heavens and the earth, "Our Lord, not You 
have created this (in) vain. Glory be to You, so save us (from the) punishment 
(of) the Fire. 
Our Lord, indeed [You] whom You admit (to) the Fire then surely You (have) 
disgraced him, and not for the wrongdoers (are) any helpers. 
[Al-Quran 3:191-193, Translation: Yusuf Ali]



For more on purpose, please read Teleology: A purpose-built Universe? 


Science 
Scientist do not know if there was something before the 'Big Bang', the most 
popular theory about the origin of our Universe. Wikipedia states:  
Pre–Big Bang physics (PBBP) are physics which can be speculated to have existed 
prior to the Big Bang. PBBP may have been radically different from the current 
laws of physics.
Although theoretical speculation on possible PBBP has only begun, research into 
the field could hold incredible implications for the makeup of the universe, 
and numerous possibilities beyond the limit of the current laws of physics in 
possible existence prior to the Big Bang.
https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2019/01/space-before-and-beyond.html 


> On 01-Jul-2022, at 2:29 AM, Lawrence Crowell 
>  wrote:
> 
> I do not want to get into this terribly much, not because of lack of 
> interest (this is connected to what I work on) but more because a sense of 
> futility. There is one difficulty with all of this; inflation stretched space 
> into a homogenous space that bears little data concerning what came before 
> inflation. Any fluctuation associated with the state of the cosmos prior to 
> inflation has been stretched to scales that may bear imprints on the CMB or 
> they may even be larger. If this cosmos in the inflationary or 
> pre-inflationary stage interacted with other vacuum bubbles or there were 
> other quantum gravitational physics it might have an imprint on the CMB. The 
> structure of anisotropies of the CMB temperature or amplitude does contain 
> some statistical kurtoses that may indicate something beyond a white noise or 
> Gaussian spectrum. 
> 
> LC
> 
>> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:23:58 PM UTC-5 medinuclear wrote:
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-scientists-think-the-universe-was-like-before-the-big-bang/
>> 
>> [Sean Carroll & Jennifer Chen]
>> 
>> “But is it possible that something could have existed before the Big Bang? 
>> After all, something couldn't have come from nothing, right? It turns out 
>> the answer is a bit complicated.For example, theoretical physicist 
>> (astronomer?) Sean Carroll at the California Institute of Technology and his 
>> colleague Jennifer Chen have created their own theory for what may have 
>> occurred before our universe. Their paper on the subject, published in 2004, 
>> suggested that our universe could have been created as a result of a piece 
>> of space-time splitting from a parent universe (via Cornell University)”.
>> 
>> [Philip Benjamin]
>> 
>>Science is about 

Re: Before Big Bang What?

[Lawrence Crowell]

I do not want to get into this terribly much, not because of lack of 
interest (this is connected to what I work on) but more because a sense of 
futility. There is one difficulty with all of this; inflation stretched 
space into a homogenous space that bears little data concerning what came 
before inflation. Any fluctuation associated with the state of the cosmos 
prior to inflation has been stretched to scales that may bear imprints on 
the CMB or they may even be larger. If this cosmos in the inflationary or 
pre-inflationary stage interacted with other vacuum bubbles or there were 
other quantum gravitational physics it might have an imprint on the CMB. 
The structure of anisotropies of the CMB temperature or amplitude does 
contain some statistical kurtoses that may indicate something beyond a 
white noise or Gaussian spectrum. 

LC

On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 1:23:58 PM UTC-5 medinuclear wrote:

>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-scientists-think-the-universe-was-like-before-the-big-bang/
>  
>
> [*Sean Carroll & Jennifer Chen*]
>
> “But is it possible that something could have existed before the Big Bang? 
> After all, something couldn't have come from nothing, right? It turns out 
> the answer is a bit complicated.For example, theoretical physicist (
> *astronomer?*) Sean Carroll at the California Institute of Technology and 
> his colleague Jennifer Chen have created their own theory for what may have 
> occurred before our universe. Their paper on the subject, published in 
> 2004, suggested that our universe could have been created as a result of a 
> piece of space-time splitting from a *parent universe* (via Cornell 
> University)”.
>
> [*Philip Benjamin*]
>
>Science is about observation, experimentation, logical analysis and 
> rational inferences. What is the observation here? Only the universe as is! 
> Nothing else. Does any sentence above obey the basic laws of logic, such as 
> Law of Noncontradiction, Causality, Infinite Regress, Aseity etc.? Why 
> can’t scientists be logical, rational and *humble enough* to at least 
> admit that human mind is finite and science is incomplete, imprecise and 
> indefinite. Nobody even knows what precisely even Big Bang is! Where did 
> all that energy come from? Now to add to this irrationality, where did the 
> *parent 
> universe* come from? 
>
> *Philip Benjamin*
>

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Before Big Bang What?

[Philip Benjamin]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-scientists-think-the-universe-was-like-before-the-big-bang/
[Sean Carroll & Jennifer Chen]
"But is it possible that something could have existed before the Big Bang? 
After all, something couldn't have come from nothing, right? It turns out the 
answer is a bit complicated.For example, theoretical physicist 
(astronomer?) Sean Carroll at the California Institute of Technology and his 
colleague Jennifer Chen have created their own theory for what may have 
occurred before our universe. Their paper on the subject, published in 2004, 
suggested that our universe could have been created as a result of a piece of 
space-time splitting from a parent universe (via Cornell University)".
[Philip Benjamin]
   Science is about observation, experimentation, logical analysis and rational 
inferences. What is the observation here? Only the universe as is! Nothing 
else. Does any sentence above obey the basic laws of logic, such as Law of 
Noncontradiction, Causality, Infinite Regress, Aseity etc.? Why can't 
scientists be logical, rational and humble enough to at least admit that human 
mind is finite and science is incomplete, imprecise and indefinite. Nobody even 
knows what precisely even Big Bang is! Where did all that energy come from? Now 
to add to this irrationality, where did the parent universe come from?
Philip Benjamin

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