[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 Thee could wonder that 
 
 were there a theocratic municipality election held in the larger meditating 
 community if these TM Rajas, their TM king and prime minister could survive a 
 confidence vote.  While they're not doing so well at gathering folks back to 
 meditate on the one hand it's gotten to be a pretty small movement inside on 
 the other.  


In Theocratic Municipality;
Well, this has happened before in history.  Example the spiritual community 
City of Zion, Illinois as was founded by a charismatic spiritual teacher late 
in the 19th Century on Lake Michigan north of Chicago.  The spiritual founder 
was voted out when he got too flamboyant, full of his Self, and cranky.  The 
community substituted by this vote someone else who was a great teacher of 
their tradition but who was not himself charismatic; then a generation later 
the community members voted this second guy out as he got too tyrannical and 
big of himself with administrating their doctrine.  The founder was 
spiritualized and the succeeding guy came along as a traditionalist doctrinaire 
of the group.  Each got turned out by vote of their group, both their times.  
Was the will of the practitioners.   A hundred years later the old group exists 
as a much smaller remnant church of what it was 'preserving' the teachings of 
the founder.  Effectively the personalities and behaviours of these early 
leaders spawned many splintered independent groups of their teaching who also 
still live in the area.   That's America.

 
  
  Practically, they are still a long way from reconciling with their old 
  meditators and succeeding here in Fairfield.
  For instance, most people in town here likely never been to a Movement 
  yagya or anything puja with the pundits even up in Vedic City.  Of course, 
  you'd have to have had a current dome badge to have done that or to even 
  git invited.  That of course has left the most meditators in town out.  
  These Raja guys have *stunning* HR skill sets.  Would seem they are out of 
  touch. 
  
   
a worry could be that they might need to figure things out better with 
   the meditating community here before they launch themselves (and us) 
   logistically off again.  It's getting to be a pretty small circle inside 
   there to be 'letting' money on this scale from whoever is left standing.  
   As that David movie brings up again, it is still fairly unclear where the 
   money went before while the scope of the scale of this particular project 
   is what, potentially bankrupting to all the other TM projects and 
   programs.  
   

Om, certainly does seem this is the pet project now of the few Rajas.
Seems also it's kind of being foist on folks.

 
 The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.
 
  
  
   Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is 
   sea-changing that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of 
   course, this being FairfieldLife and more essentially about 
   Fairfield and TM here, these memos should be highly noteworthy 
   right now to anybody living here in Fairfield.  
   
   Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed 
   in a good way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of 
   good experience with it.
   
   With Kind Regard,
   -Buck in FF
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis 
   reavismarek@ wrote:
   
Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do 
you contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this 
information more tongue-in-cheek than serious?

***

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:

 
 We especially recommend giving
 on a recurring monthly basis 
 to perpetuate these great 
 blessings for the world.
  
  
   
   Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi 
   Foundation USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda 
   Saraswati Foundation USA, created by Maharishi in 2008 
   for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our 
   sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the 
   highly professional, maximally cost-efficient management 
   of this new National Yagya Program to ensure its maximum 
   effectiveness in every respect.
  
  
  We urge you to give as
  generously as possible. 
 
  
  Om, the We,
  Who is we Kimosabe?
  The Meditating community?
  I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about 
  this nor 
  a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in 
  asking around the community here.
   
  
  

Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Practically, they are still a long way from reconciling with their old 
meditators and succeeding here in Fairfield.
For instance, most people in town here likely never been to a Movement yagya or 
anything puja with the pundits even up in Vedic City.  Of course, you'd have to 
have had a current dome badge to have done that or to even git invited.  That 
of course has left the most meditators in town out.  These Raja guys have 
*stunning* HR skill sets.  Would seem they are out of touch. 

 
  a worry could be that they might need to figure things out better with the 
 meditating community here before they launch themselves (and us) logistically 
 off again.  It's getting to be a pretty small circle inside there to be 
 'letting' money on this scale from whoever is left standing.  As that David 
 movie brings up again, it is still fairly unclear where the money went before 
 while the scope of the scale of this particular project is what, potentially 
 bankrupting to all the other TM projects and programs.  
 
  
  Om, certainly does seem this is the pet project now of the few Rajas.
  Seems also it's kind of being foist on folks.
  
   
   The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.
   


 Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is 
 sea-changing that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of 
 course, this being FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield 
 and TM here, these memos should be highly noteworthy right now to 
 anybody living here in Fairfield.  
 
 Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a 
 good way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good 
 experience with it.
 
 With Kind Regard,
 -Buck in FF
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ 
 wrote:
 
  Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
  contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
  tongue-in-cheek than serious?
  
  ***
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
  
   
   We especially recommend giving
   on a recurring monthly basis 
   to perpetuate these great 
   blessings for the world.


 
 Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi 
 Foundation USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda 
 Saraswati Foundation USA, created by Maharishi in 2008 for 
 this very purpose, and in collaboration with our sister 
 organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
 professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new 
 National Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in 
 every respect.


We urge you to give as
generously as possible. 
   

Om, the We,
Who is we Kimosabe?
The Meditating community?
I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about this 
nor 
a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking 
around the community here.
 


  
  Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful 
  application of Yagya to produce the largest possible impact 
  on an entire nation. Maharishi trained tens of thousands of 
  Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these massive results, 
  and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India 
  to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic 
  architecture). This campus is continuing to expand rapidly 
  today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, 
  Raja Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian 
  movement.
  
   
   These National Yagyas continue over many days or even 
   weeks, depending on the size of the desired effect and 
   the magnitude of the problem being averted or defused,
   
   

Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful 
application of the technology of Yagya on a national 
scale to prevent problems and improve the fortune of an 
entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large 
groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the 
Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant power 
spot) of India.


 
 Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and 
 proper practice that the Vedic mantras should be 
 projected from the Para (Transcendental) level of 
 speech, where the link between sound and form—between 
 desire and fulfillment of desire—is enormously 
 powerful. 
 
   
 
 While Yogic 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Thee could wonder that 

were there a theocratic municipality election held in the larger meditating 
community if these TM Rajas, their TM king and prime minister could survive a 
confidence vote.  While they're not doing so well at gathering folks back to 
meditate on the one hand it's gotten to be a pretty small movement inside on 
the other.  

 
 Practically, they are still a long way from reconciling with their old 
 meditators and succeeding here in Fairfield.
 For instance, most people in town here likely never been to a Movement yagya 
 or anything puja with the pundits even up in Vedic City.  Of course, you'd 
 have to have had a current dome badge to have done that or to even git 
 invited.  That of course has left the most meditators in town out.  These 
 Raja guys have *stunning* HR skill sets.  Would seem they are out of touch. 
 
  
   a worry could be that they might need to figure things out better with the 
  meditating community here before they launch themselves (and us) 
  logistically off again.  It's getting to be a pretty small circle inside 
  there to be 'letting' money on this scale from whoever is left standing.  
  As that David movie brings up again, it is still fairly unclear where the 
  money went before while the scope of the scale of this particular project 
  is what, potentially bankrupting to all the other TM projects and programs. 
   
  
   
   Om, certainly does seem this is the pet project now of the few Rajas.
   Seems also it's kind of being foist on folks.
   

The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.

 
 
  Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is 
  sea-changing that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of 
  course, this being FairfieldLife and more essentially about 
  Fairfield and TM here, these memos should be highly noteworthy 
  right now to anybody living here in Fairfield.  
  
  Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in 
  a good way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good 
  experience with it.
  
  With Kind Regard,
  -Buck in FF
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ 
  wrote:
  
   Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
   contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
   tongue-in-cheek than serious?
   
   ***
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
   

We especially recommend giving
on a recurring monthly basis 
to perpetuate these great 
blessings for the world.
 
 
  
  Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi 
  Foundation USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda 
  Saraswati Foundation USA, created by Maharishi in 2008 for 
  this very purpose, and in collaboration with our sister 
  organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
  professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this 
  new National Yagya Program to ensure its maximum 
  effectiveness in every respect.
 
 
 We urge you to give as
 generously as possible. 

 
 Om, the We,
 Who is we Kimosabe?
 The Meditating community?
 I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about 
 this nor 
 a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking 
 around the community here.
  
 
 
   
   Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful 
   application of Yagya to produce the largest possible 
   impact on an entire nation. Maharishi trained tens of 
   thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these 
   massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at the 
   Brahmasthan of India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits 
   in perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is 
   continuing to expand rapidly today under the dynamic 
   leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and 
   other great leaders of our Indian movement.
   

These National Yagyas continue over many days or even 
weeks, depending on the size of the desired effect and 
the magnitude of the problem being averted or defused,


 
 Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful 
 application of the technology of Yagya on a national 
 scale to prevent problems and improve the fortune of 
 an entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially 
 large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at 
 the Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant 
 power spot) of India.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that the Vedic 
mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) level of speech, 
where the link between sound and form—between desire and fulfillment of 
desire—is enormously powerful. 

  
   
   

While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
   
   
   Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
   programs?

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
program,
may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
race.

Jai Guru Dev
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the technology 
of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve the fortune of an 
entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large groups of Maharishi 
Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant 
power spot) of India.


 
 Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that the 
 Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) level of 
 speech, where the link between sound and form—between desire and fulfillment 
 of desire—is enormously powerful. 
 
   
 
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed 
 surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.


Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
invincible programs?
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending on the 
size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem being averted or 
defused,


 
 Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
 technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve the 
 fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large groups 
 of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic center 
 and resonant power spot) of India.
 
 
  
  Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that the 
  Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) level of 
  speech, where the link between sound and form—between desire and 
  fulfillment of desire—is enormously powerful. 
  

  
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed 
  surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming 
  today.
 
 
 Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
 invincible programs?
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world 
  has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful 
  new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya to 
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi trained tens 
of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these massive results, and he 
built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India to accommodate these Vedic 
Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is continuing to 
expand rapidly today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja 
Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian movement.

 
 These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending on the 
 size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem being averted or 
 defused,
 
 
  
  Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
  technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve the 
  fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large 
  groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the 
  geographic center and resonant power spot) of India.
  
  
   
   Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that the 
   Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) level of 
   speech, where the link between sound and form—between desire and 
   fulfillment of desire—is enormously powerful. 
   
 
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
   non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas 
   create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming 
   today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
  invincible programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the 
   world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered 
   to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
   powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the 
   human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by Maharishi 
in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our sister 
organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly professional, 
maximally cost-efficient management of this new National Yagya Program to 
ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.


 
 Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya to 
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi trained 
 tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these massive results, 
 and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India to accommodate 
 these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is 
 continuing to expand rapidly today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish 
 Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian movement.
 
  
  These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending on 
  the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem being 
  averted or defused,
  
  
   
   Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
   technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve 
   the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large 
   groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the 
   geographic center and resonant power spot) of India.
   
   

Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that 
the Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) 
level of speech, where the link between sound and form—between desire 
and fulfillment of desire—is enormously powerful. 

  

While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas 
create a
very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming 
today.
   
   
   Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
   invincible programs?

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the 
world has
ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
engineered to
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
powerful new
program,
may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the 
human
race.

Jai Guru Dev
   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 
 Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
 conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by 
 Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our sister 
 organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly professional, 
 maximally cost-efficient management of this new National Yagya Program to 
 ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.


We urge you to give as
generously as possible. 

  
  Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya to 
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi trained 
  tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these massive 
  results, and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India to 
  accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This 
  campus is continuing to expand rapidly today under the dynamic leadership 
  of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our 
  Indian movement.
  
   
   These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending on 
   the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem being 
   averted or defused,
   
   

Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve 
the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially 
large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the 
geographic center and resonant power spot) of India.


 
 Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice that 
 the Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para (Transcendental) 
 level of speech, where the link between sound and form—between desire 
 and fulfillment of desire—is enormously powerful. 
 
   
 
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
 non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas 
 create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are 
 looming today.


Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
invincible programs?
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the 
 world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
 engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
 powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
 Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the 
 human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

We especially recommend giving
on a recurring monthly basis 
to perpetuate these great 
blessings for the world.
 
 
  
  Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
  conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by 
  Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our 
  sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
  professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new National 
  Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.
 
 
 We urge you to give as
 generously as possible. 
 
   
   Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya 
   to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi 
   trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these 
   massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of 
   India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic 
   architecture). This campus is continuing to expand rapidly today under 
   the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other 
   great leaders of our Indian movement.
   

These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending 
on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem 
being averted or defused,


 
 Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
 technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and 
 improve the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve 
 especially large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the 
 Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant power spot) of India.
 
 
  
  Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice 
  that the Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para 
  (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link between sound and 
  form—between desire and fulfillment of desire—is enormously 
  powerful. 
  

  
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
  non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas 
  create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed 
  to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are 
  looming today.
 
 
 Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The 
 invincible programs?
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya 
  the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a 
  massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
  engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
  powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
  Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless 
  the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Your monthly donations will not only bring profound benefits to our country, 
they will also provide vital support for the Maharishi Vedic Pandits in the 
U.S. and India.

 
 We especially recommend giving
 on a recurring monthly basis 
 to perpetuate these great 
 blessings for the world.
  
  
   
   Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
   conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by 
   Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our 
   sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
   professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new National 
   Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.
  
  
  We urge you to give as
  generously as possible. 
 



Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya 
to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi 
trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these 
massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of 
India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic 
architecture). This campus is continuing to expand rapidly today under 
the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and 
other great leaders of our Indian movement.

 
 These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
 depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the 
 problem being averted or defused,
 
 
  
  Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
  technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and 
  improve the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve 
  especially large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the 
  Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant power spot) of 
  India.
  
  
   
   Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice 
   that the Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para 
   (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link between sound 
   and form—between desire and fulfillment of desire—is enormously 
   powerful. 
   
 
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
   non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
   Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity 
   designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are 
   looming today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? 
  The invincible programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya 
   the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a 
   massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
   engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
   powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
   Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless 
   the human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[marekreavis]

Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you contribute 
money to it? Or are you relaying this information more tongue-in-cheek than 
serious?

***

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 We especially recommend giving
 on a recurring monthly basis 
 to perpetuate these great 
 blessings for the world.
  
  
   
   Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
   conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by 
   Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our 
   sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
   professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new National 
   Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.
  
  
  We urge you to give as
  generously as possible. 
  

Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of Yagya 
to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. Maharishi 
trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these 
massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of 
India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic 
architecture). This campus is continuing to expand rapidly today under 
the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and 
other great leaders of our Indian movement.

 
 These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
 depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the 
 problem being averted or defused,
 
 
  
  Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the 
  technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and 
  improve the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas involve 
  especially large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the 
  Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant power spot) of 
  India.
  
  
   
   Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper practice 
   that the Vedic mantras should be projected from the Para 
   (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link between sound 
   and form—between desire and fulfillment of desire—is enormously 
   powerful. 
   
 
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
   non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
   Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity 
   designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are 
   looming today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? 
  The invincible programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya 
   the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a 
   massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
   engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this 
   powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
   Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless 
   the human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is sea-changing 
that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of course, this being 
FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield and TM here, these memos 
should be highly noteworthy right now to anybody living here in Fairfield.  

Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a good way 
for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good experience with it.

With Kind Regard,
-Buck in FF

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote:

 Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you contribute 
 money to it? Or are you relaying this information more tongue-in-cheek than 
 serious?
 
 ***
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
 
  
  We especially recommend giving
  on a recurring monthly basis 
  to perpetuate these great 
  blessings for the world.
   
   

Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), in 
conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created by 
Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with our 
sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new National 
Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.
   
   
   We urge you to give as
   generously as possible. 
   
 
 Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of 
 Yagya to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. 
 Maharishi trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to 
 achieve these massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at the 
 Brahmasthan of India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect 
 Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is continuing to expand 
 rapidly today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja 
 Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian movement.
 
  
  These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
  depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of 
  the problem being averted or defused,
  
  
   
   Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of 
   the technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems 
   and improve the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas 
   involve especially large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits 
   located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant 
   power spot) of India.
   
   

Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper 
practice that the Vedic mantras should be projected from the 
Para (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link between 
sound and form—between desire and fulfillment of desire—is 
enormously powerful. 

  

While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
Yagyas create a
very focused, concentrated influence of positivity 
designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are 
looming today.
   
   
   Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? 
   The invincible programs?

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of 
Yagya the world has
ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a 
massive
application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically 
engineered to
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch 
this powerful new
program,
may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
Maharishi's
great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently 
bless the human
race.

Jai Guru Dev
   
  
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is sea-changing 
 that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of course, this being 
 FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield and TM here, these memos 
 should be highly noteworthy right now to anybody living here in Fairfield.  
 
 Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a good 
 way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good experience with it.
 
 With Kind Regard,
 -Buck in FF
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote:
 
  Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
  contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
  tongue-in-cheek than serious?
  
  ***
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
  
   
   We especially recommend giving
   on a recurring monthly basis 
   to perpetuate these great 
   blessings for the world.


 
 Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation USA), 
 in conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, created 
 by Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in collaboration with 
 our sister organizations in India, is directly overseeing the highly 
 professional, maximally cost-efficient management of this new 
 National Yagya Program to ensure its maximum effectiveness in every 
 respect.


We urge you to give as
generously as possible. 
   

Om, the We,
Who is we Kimosabe?
The Meditating community?
I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about this nor 
a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking around 
the community here.
 


  
  Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of 
  Yagya to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. 
  Maharishi trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to 
  achieve these massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at 
  the Brahmasthan of India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in 
  perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is continuing to 
  expand rapidly today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish 
  Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian 
  movement.
  
   
   These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
   depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude of 
   the problem being averted or defused,
   
   

Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of 
the technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems 
and improve the fortune of an entire nation. National Yagyas 
involve especially large groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits 
located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant 
power spot) of India.


 
 Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper 
 practice that the Vedic mantras should be projected from the 
 Para (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link between 
 sound and form—between desire and fulfillment of desire—is 
 enormously powerful. 
 
   
 
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, 
 non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
 Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity 
 designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that 
 are looming today.


Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome 
numbers? The invincible programs?
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of 
 Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is 
 a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, 
 specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire 
 nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch 
 this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
 Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently 
 bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

   
  
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.

 
 
  Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is sea-changing 
  that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of course, this being 
  FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield and TM here, these memos 
  should be highly noteworthy right now to anybody living here in Fairfield.  
  
  Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a good 
  way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good experience with 
  it.
  
  With Kind Regard,
  -Buck in FF
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote:
  
   Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
   contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
   tongue-in-cheek than serious?
   
   ***
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
   

We especially recommend giving
on a recurring monthly basis 
to perpetuate these great 
blessings for the world.
 
 
  
  Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation 
  USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, 
  created by Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in 
  collaboration with our sister organizations in India, is directly 
  overseeing the highly professional, maximally cost-efficient 
  management of this new National Yagya Program to ensure its maximum 
  effectiveness in every respect.
 
 
 We urge you to give as
 generously as possible. 

 
 Om, the We,
 Who is we Kimosabe?
 The Meditating community?
 I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about this nor 
 a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking around 
 the community here.
  
 
 
   
   Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application of 
   Yagya to produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation. 
   Maharishi trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in order to 
   achieve these massive results, and he built a beautiful campus at 
   the Brahmasthan of India to accommodate these Vedic Pandits in 
   perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This campus is continuing to 
   expand rapidly today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish 
   Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian 
   movement.
   

These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude 
of the problem being averted or defused,


 
 Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application 
 of the technology of Yagya on a national scale to prevent 
 problems and improve the fortune of an entire nation. 
 National Yagyas involve especially large groups of Maharishi 
 Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic 
 center and resonant power spot) of India.
 
 
  
  Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper 
  practice that the Vedic mantras should be projected from 
  the Para (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link 
  between sound and form—between desire and fulfillment of 
  desire—is enormously powerful. 
  

  
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, 
  generalized, non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of 
  society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity 
  designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that 
  are looming today.
 
 
 Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome 
 numbers? The invincible programs?
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of 
  Yagya the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program 
  is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, 
  specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire 
  nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us 
  launch this powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may 
  Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently 
  bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

   
  
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Om, certainly does seem this is the pet project now of the few Rajas.
Seems also it's kind of being foist on folks.

 
 The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.
 
  
  
   Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is 
   sea-changing that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of course, 
   this being FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield and TM 
   here, these memos should be highly noteworthy right now to anybody living 
   here in Fairfield.  
   
   Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a 
   good way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good experience 
   with it.
   
   With Kind Regard,
   -Buck in FF
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote:
   
Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
tongue-in-cheek than serious?

***

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:

 
 We especially recommend giving
 on a recurring monthly basis 
 to perpetuate these great 
 blessings for the world.
  
  
   
   Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation 
   USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation 
   USA, created by Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in 
   collaboration with our sister organizations in India, is directly 
   overseeing the highly professional, maximally cost-efficient 
   management of this new National Yagya Program to ensure its 
   maximum effectiveness in every respect.
  
  
  We urge you to give as
  generously as possible. 
 
  
  Om, the We,
  Who is we Kimosabe?
  The Meditating community?
  I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about this nor 
  a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking 
  around the community here.
   
  
  

Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful application 
of Yagya to produce the largest possible impact on an entire 
nation. Maharishi trained tens of thousands of Vedic Pandits in 
order to achieve these massive results, and he built a 
beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India to accommodate 
these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic architecture). This 
campus is continuing to expand rapidly today under the dynamic 
leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja Harris Kaplan, and other 
great leaders of our Indian movement.

 
 These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, 
 depending on the size of the desired effect and the magnitude 
 of the problem being averted or defused,
 
 
  
  Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful 
  application of the technology of Yagya on a national scale 
  to prevent problems and improve the fortune of an entire 
  nation. National Yagyas involve especially large groups of 
  Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the 
  geographic center and resonant power spot) of India.
  
  
   
   Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper 
   practice that the Vedic mantras should be projected from 
   the Para (Transcendental) level of speech, where the link 
   between sound and form—between desire and fulfillment of 
   desire—is enormously powerful. 
   
 
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, 
   generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of 
   society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of 
   positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats 
   that are looming today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome 
  numbers? The invincible programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system 
   of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program 
   is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, 
   specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire 
   nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us 
   launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and 
   may Maharishi's
   

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 the worry could also be that they might need to figure things out better with 
the meditating community here before they launch themselves (and us) 
logistically off again.  It's getting to be a pretty small circle inside there 
to be 'letting' money on this scale from whoever is left standing.  As that 
David movie brings up again, it is still fairly unclear where the money went 
before while the scope of the scale of this particular project is what, 
potentially bankrupting to all the other TM projects and programs.  

 
 Om, certainly does seem this is the pet project now of the few Rajas.
 Seems also it's kind of being foist on folks.
 
  
  The TM Rajas seem mighty bent on staking the movement on this bet now.
  
   
   
Marek, I'm just a guy on the street but I can tell you this is 
sea-changing that also looks like it comes with an under-tow.  Of 
course, this being FairfieldLife and more essentially about Fairfield 
and TM here, these memos should be highly noteworthy right now to 
anybody living here in Fairfield.  

Yes, oh I give money to them too.  I'd like to see them succeed in a 
good way for all kinds of good reason.  I've had a lot of good 
experience with it.

With Kind Regard,
-Buck in FF

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ 
wrote:

 Buck, do you support this National Yagya Program yourself? Do you 
 contribute money to it? Or are you relaying this information more 
 tongue-in-cheek than serious?
 
 ***
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote:
 
  
  We especially recommend giving
  on a recurring monthly basis 
  to perpetuate these great 
  blessings for the world.
   
   

Today, the United States TM organization (Maharishi Foundation 
USA), in conjunction with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation 
USA, created by Maharishi in 2008 for this very purpose, and in 
collaboration with our sister organizations in India, is 
directly overseeing the highly professional, maximally 
cost-efficient management of this new National Yagya Program to 
ensure its maximum effectiveness in every respect.
   
   
   We urge you to give as
   generously as possible. 
  
   
   Om, the We,
   Who is we Kimosabe?
   The Meditating community?
   I'm Not necessarily seeing or hearing much in the community about this 
   nor 
   a lot of support for this project of sending money to India in asking 
   around the community here.

   
   
 
 Maharishi personally engineered this most powerful 
 application of Yagya to produce the largest possible impact 
 on an entire nation. Maharishi trained tens of thousands of 
 Vedic Pandits in order to achieve these massive results, and 
 he built a beautiful campus at the Brahmasthan of India to 
 accommodate these Vedic Pandits in perfect Vastu (Vedic 
 architecture). This campus is continuing to expand rapidly 
 today under the dynamic leadership of Dr. Girish Varma, Raja 
 Harris Kaplan, and other great leaders of our Indian movement.
 
  
  These National Yagyas continue over many days or even 
  weeks, depending on the size of the desired effect and the 
  magnitude of the problem being averted or defused,
  
  
   
   Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful 
   application of the technology of Yagya on a national 
   scale to prevent problems and improve the fortune of an 
   entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large 
   groups of Maharishi Vedic Pandits located at the 
   Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant power 
   spot) of India.
   
   

Maharishi restored the crucial understanding and proper 
practice that the Vedic mantras should be projected 
from the Para (Transcendental) level of speech, where 
the link between sound and form—between desire and 
fulfillment of desire—is enormously powerful. 

  

While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, 
generalized, non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of 
society, Yagyas create a
very focused, concentrated influence of 
positivity designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats 
that are looming today.
   
   
   Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome 
   numbers? The invincible programs?

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Yep, well if the BODirectors of the TM-movement's SBSTrust or the BOTrustees of 
the university ever wanted to do something really productive with the 
meditating community, they proly should ought to 'retire' the University 
President and give that position and its job to someone who has a different and 
better sense of how to deal with people (meditators) effectively.  Give the 
authority and power of that job to someone else now.  Have the current 
President step back and become 'emeritus'.  That could become his new name, and 
git him out of the way.  

It is an interesting problem, the legacy the President's Office has now.  Out 
on the streets I interview folks in Fairfield all the time asking about their 
relationship to the movement and about their going to the domes for mediation.  
When and where did they become meditators? How long have they been in 
Fairfield?  A common and most always a strongly worded reaction by people quite 
often comes when asked about going to the domes.  The reaction is often that 
folks don't like going to meditate in the dome group there anymore because the 
'dome politics' as a feeling is that palpable and bad in there.  That people 
don't have a sense of 'place' there anymore because these President's Office 
politics have been so bad for so long. 


 
 Seems saddening to see that the dome numbers with the meditator community are 
 not working out for the tru-believers and that the Invincibility courses 
 should be supplanted and let go this way.  The potential was so great, except 
 the Rajas could not bring themselves to figure out a reconciliation with the 
 old meditating community.
 
  
  
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
  programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote:

 Here's another idea - 
 open up a separate 
 place in Ffld to do Program 
 (Probation Hall) for all those 
 banned people who would really 
 like to meditate in the Domes.   
 Let them meditate and contribute 
 to world peace etc, but without 
 contaminating the people 
 in the regular Domes.  
 And if you attend Probation 
 Hall programs regularly, 
 swear to your purity, OR 
 make a large donation, 
 you can absolve your sins 
 and work your way 
 into the big Domes.  
 Problem solved.

Susan, interesting idea. Or there could be a facility that just lets in anyone 
doing what they like, and the sidha community could establish their own 
specific times, but of course that would not fly with the administration.

Just how do 'the people in the regular domes get contaminated'?, for after all, 
a sidha is said to be many times more powerful than the average joe or 
meditator, you would think the influence would go the other way.

Being on probation for an offense that does not seem real, probably will not 
attract very many. The TMO has shot itself in the head chakra so many times, 
thinking must be quite difficult for it now.

As I have lived mostly about 1,000 miles (1600km) from the domes for a couple 
of decades now, they seem especially remote to me, and in fact never attracted 
me. I prefer a kind of isolation.

I think we also need to answer the question about what happens when people wake 
up. Do they need to continue such practices and in what way or for how long? 
There seems to be no information on this. Waking up frees people from the 
conceptual bonds that have held them in thrall, and so why would one want to 
engage with a group that insists they be kept intact? In other words, if what 
you got from Maharishi freed you, what are your loyalties with regard those 
illusions that kept you down. Those illusions are everything that one 
entertained as real prior to awakening, which include the very means that led 
to freedom.

Perhaps that is related to 'the remains of ignorance', the shadows of what one 
was, whether conservative or liberal or whatnot, that leans one in a tendency 
to stay with tradition or be a rebel.

If the value of what you wanted to establish is with you all the time, what is 
required to maintain it, if anything? If you build a house, there are certain 
things you must do; after it is built, there is maintenance, which involves 
some of the same technology, but not all the time. And enjoying and living in a 
house, once finished, is a new and different kind of experience to be savoured, 
unlike the grunt work required to finish it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.

 
 Seems saddening to see that the dome numbers with the meditator community are 
 not working out for the tru-believers and that the Invincibility courses 
 should be supplanted and let go this way.  The potential was so great, except 
 the Rajas could not bring themselves to figure out a reconciliation with the 
 old meditating community.
 
  
  
   
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
  
  
  Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
  programs?
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Susan]

So, are the Rajas actually canceling the Invincibility courses?

And what exactly are Invincibility Courses - the courses you can sign up for to 
round in the Domes that Settle helps underwrite?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
 Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.
 
  
  Seems saddening to see that the dome numbers with the meditator community 
  are not working out for the tru-believers and that the Invincibility 
  courses should be supplanted and let go this way.  The potential was so 
  great, except the Rajas could not bring themselves to figure out a 
  reconciliation with the old meditating community.
  
   
   

While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
   
   
   Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
   programs?

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
program,
may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
race.

Jai Guru Dev
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:
 
 Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
 Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.

Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do they not, on their 
own, have a yagya performed to get more people into the domes? this would be a 
loose test of the effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, it would solve 
their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, bringing the numbers 
up to snuff. Then, according to the theory, it should no longer be necessary to 
perform yagyas to avert the dangers they themselves have engendered, as the 
dome numbers would take care of that.

Could be they do not believe their own hype.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
 
  Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an 
  end because the TM Rajas could not get effective numbers 
  of meditators together.
 
 Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do 
 they not, on their own, have a yagya performed to get more 
 people into the domes? this would be a loose test of the 
 effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, it would solve 
 their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, 
 bringing the numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the 
 theory, it should no longer be necessary to perform yagyas 
 to avert the dangers they themselves have engendered, as 
 the dome numbers would take care of that.
 
 Could be they do not believe their own hype.

I haven't said anything too terribly TM controversial
in a while, so I'll wade into this one. :-)

I think that -- either consciously or subconsciously --
Bevan and Hagelin and the Rajas have no more intention
to *ever* achieve the numbers than Maharishi did. And
for a very simple reason -- if you achieve the proper
numbers and the expected result does not happen, you
will have proved your own technology to be a sham.
Can't take that chance. 

Maharishi could have achieved the numbers AT ANY
MOMENT during his life. He *had* the money to do it.
And early on he even had the willing followers to do
it. But he never did, and I suspect that it's because
of the reason I suggest above. He was not willing to
put his theories to an actual test.

Now that he's gone, there will be even more of a 
fervor in the Raja types to keep the ME from ever 
really being put to the test, because if they allowed
that and it proved the ME wrong or ineffective, they
would have (in their minds) contributed to besmirching 
the name of their dear departed guru. Not. Gonna. Happen. 

As for paying for a yagya to achieve the numbers,
that's a good idea but again, Not. Gonna. Happen.
To do that would violate one of the highest Laws
Of Nature: Thou shalt never pay for anything 
yourself if you can con someone else into paying
for it for you.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Susan]

Great idea, but way too logical and alarmingly measurable.  Hopefully, the 
folks from the inner circle who scan these posts will hear of this.

Here's another idea - open up a separate place in Ffld to do Program (Probation 
Hall) for all those banned people who would really like to meditate in the 
Domes.   Let them meditate and contribute to world peace etc, but without 
contaminating the people in the regular Domes.  And if you attend Probation 
Hall programs regularly, swear to your purity, OR make a large donation, you 
can absolve your sins and work your way into the big Domes.  Problem solved.

I do see from Buck's point of view how frustrating this whole situation is. 
There is no way to get forgiveness on this issue.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
  
  Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
  Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.
 
 Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do they not, on their 
 own, have a yagya performed to get more people into the domes? this would be 
 a loose test of the effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, it would solve 
 their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, bringing the 
 numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the theory, it should no longer be 
 necessary to perform yagyas to avert the dangers they themselves have 
 engendered, as the dome numbers would take care of that.
 
 Could be they do not believe their own hype.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Susan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
  
   Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an 
   end because the TM Rajas could not get effective numbers 
   of meditators together.
  
  Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do 
  they not, on their own, have a yagya performed to get more 
  people into the domes? this would be a loose test of the 
  effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, it would solve 
  their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, 
  bringing the numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the 
  theory, it should no longer be necessary to perform yagyas 
  to avert the dangers they themselves have engendered, as 
  the dome numbers would take care of that.
  
  Could be they do not believe their own hype.
 
 I haven't said anything too terribly TM controversial
 in a while, so I'll wade into this one. :-)
 
 I think that -- either consciously or subconsciously --
 Bevan and Hagelin and the Rajas have no more intention
 to *ever* achieve the numbers than Maharishi did. And
 for a very simple reason -- if you achieve the proper
 numbers and the expected result does not happen, you
 will have proved your own technology to be a sham.
 Can't take that chance. 
 
 Maharishi could have achieved the numbers AT ANY
 MOMENT during his life. He *had* the money to do it.
 And early on he even had the willing followers to do
 it. But he never did, and I suspect that it's because
 of the reason I suggest above. He was not willing to
 put his theories to an actual test.
 
 Now that he's gone, there will be even more of a 
 fervor in the Raja types to keep the ME from ever 
 really being put to the test, because if they allowed
 that and it proved the ME wrong or ineffective, they
 would have (in their minds) contributed to besmirching 
 the name of their dear departed guru. Not. Gonna. Happen. 
 
 As for paying for a yagya to achieve the numbers,
 that's a good idea but again, Not. Gonna. Happen.
 To do that would violate one of the highest Laws
 Of Nature: Thou shalt never pay for anything 
 yourself if you can con someone else into paying
 for it for you.  :-)

Hey, they left that particular law of nature out of my SCI course years ago!

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
  
  Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
  Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.
 
 Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do they
 not, on their own, have a yagya performed to get more people
 into the domes?

Just out of curiosity--I really have no idea--can a yagya
be given such a specific purpose? Or are the performances
preformulated for a range of more general goals, and you
pick the one that seems to apply most closely to the
specific goal you're aiming for?



 this would be a loose test of the effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, 
it would solve their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, 
bringing the numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the theory, it should no 
longer be necessary to perform yagyas to avert the dangers they themselves have 
engendered, as the dome numbers would take care of that.
 
 Could be they do not believe their own hype.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the TM 
 Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.


No need to feel sorry. When everything is moved to India you will be sure to 
enjoy it there !

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote:

 Great idea, but way too logical and alarmingly measurable.  Hopefully, the 
 folks from the inner circle who scan these posts will hear of this.
 
 Here's another idea - open up a separate place in Ffld to do Program 
 (Probation Hall) for all those banned people who would really like to 
 meditate in the Domes.   Let them meditate and contribute to world peace etc, 
 but without contaminating the people in the regular Domes.  And if you attend 
 Probation Hall programs regularly, swear to your purity, OR make a large 
 donation, you can absolve your sins and work your way into the big Domes.  
 Problem solved.
 
 I do see from Buck's point of view how frustrating this whole situation is. 
 There is no way to get forgiveness on this issue.


Better still; move the whole operation to India and let the americans carry 
their own cross.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote:

 Great idea, but way too logical and alarmingly measurable.  Hopefully, the 
 folks from the inner circle who scan these posts will hear of this.
 
 Here's another idea - open up a separate place in Ffld to do Program 
 (Probation Hall) for all those banned people who would really like to 
 meditate in the Domes.   Let them meditate and contribute to world peace etc, 
 but without contaminating the people in the regular Domes.  And if you attend 
 Probation Hall programs regularly, swear to your purity, OR make a large 
 donation, you can absolve your sins and work your way into the big Domes.  
 Problem solved.
 
 I do see from Buck's point of view how frustrating this whole situation is. 
 There is no way to get forgiveness on this issue.

Susan, Doug Hamilton has been on this from the earliest posts to this forum, 
long, long before I came on here. Post #6 and post #13:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/6
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/13

He seems genuinely concerned about this disruption of community. As spiritual 
movements degenerate into religion (belief as opposed to direct experience) I 
suspect the resistance to testing the metaphysical underpinnings of the 
enterprise becomes more intense. There are many metaphysical ideas which have 
testable physical consequences because they are supposed to have a result in 
the world.

For example global warming does appear to be increasing. The Church of the 
Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) claims this is because the 
number of pirates in the world is declining:

http://www.venganza.org/images/PiratesVsTemp.png

However the number of pirates on the high seas seems to have increased in the 
past couple of decades from something like 100 to perhaps 3000, largely because 
of Somalia. This is a serious theological threat to the Church of the Flying 
Spaghetti Monster (COTFSM) because the number of pirates is increasing, but 
global temperatures continue to rise. And there are of course online pirates 
that have increased significantly to, although, strictly speaking, the COTFSM 
is referring specifically to pirates on the high seas.

The Church here referred to is of course a parody of religious thought, but it 
is exactly the kind of thinking the TMO expects people to have. Anyone here on 
this forum who has a spiritual bent, not excluding me either, has probably 
fallen into the ridiculous logic promoted by this way of thinking one time or 
another, even without realising it. What we see here on the forum is people 
that are in various stages of breaking away from that misguided logic, and 
trying to come to terms with existence as it is, not as we think it ought to 
be, or more particularly, as someone else thinks we ought to think it to be.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
   
   Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because the 
   TM Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.
  
  Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do they not, on 
  their own, have a yagya performed to get more people into the domes? this 
  would be a loose test of the effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, it 
  would solve their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, 
  bringing the numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the theory, it should 
  no longer be necessary to perform yagyas to avert the dangers they 
  themselves have engendered, as the dome numbers would take care of that.
  
  Could be they do not believe their own hype.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[marekreavis]

Xenophaneros Anartaxius said:
What we see here on the forum is people that
are in various stages of breaking away from that misguided logic, and trying to
come to terms with existence as it is, not as we think it ought to be, or more
particularly, as someone else thinks we ought to think it to be.

In my experience and opinion, coming to terms with existence as it is and not 
as we think it ought to be is one of the most rewarding endeavors a human can 
engage in. (And I'm tempted to say, ought to engage in.)

Thanks for your posts. Good stuff.

***



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote:
 
  Great idea, but way too logical and alarmingly measurable.  Hopefully, the 
  folks from the inner circle who scan these posts will hear of this.
  
  Here's another idea - open up a separate place in Ffld to do Program 
  (Probation Hall) for all those banned people who would really like to 
  meditate in the Domes.   Let them meditate and contribute to world peace 
  etc, but without contaminating the people in the regular Domes.  And if you 
  attend Probation Hall programs regularly, swear to your purity, OR make a 
  large donation, you can absolve your sins and work your way into the big 
  Domes.  Problem solved.
  
  I do see from Buck's point of view how frustrating this whole situation is. 
  There is no way to get forgiveness on this issue.
 
 Susan, Doug Hamilton has been on this from the earliest posts to this forum, 
 long, long before I came on here. Post #6 and post #13:
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/6
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/13
 
 He seems genuinely concerned about this disruption of community. As spiritual 
 movements degenerate into religion (belief as opposed to direct experience) I 
 suspect the resistance to testing the metaphysical underpinnings of the 
 enterprise becomes more intense. There are many metaphysical ideas which have 
 testable physical consequences because they are supposed to have a result in 
 the world.
 
 For example global warming does appear to be increasing. The Church of the 
 Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) claims this is because 
 the number of pirates in the world is declining:
 
 http://www.venganza.org/images/PiratesVsTemp.png
 
 However the number of pirates on the high seas seems to have increased in the 
 past couple of decades from something like 100 to perhaps 3000, largely 
 because of Somalia. This is a serious theological threat to the Church of the 
 Flying Spaghetti Monster (COTFSM) because the number of pirates is 
 increasing, but global temperatures continue to rise. And there are of course 
 online pirates that have increased significantly to, although, strictly 
 speaking, the COTFSM is referring specifically to pirates on the high seas.
 
 The Church here referred to is of course a parody of religious thought, but 
 it is exactly the kind of thinking the TMO expects people to have. Anyone 
 here on this forum who has a spiritual bent, not excluding me either, has 
 probably fallen into the ridiculous logic promoted by this way of thinking 
 one time or another, even without realising it. What we see here on the forum 
 is people that are in various stages of breaking away from that misguided 
 logic, and trying to come to terms with existence as it is, not as we think 
 it ought to be, or more particularly, as someone else thinks we ought to 
 think it to be.
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:

Is a shame to see the Invincible courses come towards an end because 
the TM Rajas could not get effective numbers of meditators together.
   
   Rather than a shame, it seems more like stupidity. Why do they not, on 
   their own, have a yagya performed to get more people into the domes? this 
   would be a loose test of the effectiveness of yagyas, and if effective, 
   it would solve their own difficulty with assembling their own technology, 
   bringing the numbers up to snuff. Then, according to the theory, it 
   should no longer be necessary to perform yagyas to avert the dangers they 
   themselves have engendered, as the dome numbers would take care of that.
   
   Could be they do not believe their own hype.
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Susan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote:
 
  Great idea, but way too logical and alarmingly measurable.  Hopefully, the 
  folks from the inner circle who scan these posts will hear of this.
  
  Here's another idea - open up a separate place in Ffld to do Program 
  (Probation Hall) for all those banned people who would really like to 
  meditate in the Domes.   Let them meditate and contribute to world peace 
  etc, but without contaminating the people in the regular Domes.  And if you 
  attend Probation Hall programs regularly, swear to your purity, OR make a 
  large donation, you can absolve your sins and work your way into the big 
  Domes.  Problem solved.
  
  I do see from Buck's point of view how frustrating this whole situation is. 
  There is no way to get forgiveness on this issue.
 
 Susan, Doug Hamilton has been on this from the earliest posts to this forum, 
 long, long before I came on here. Post #6 and post #13:
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/6
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/13
 
 He seems genuinely concerned about this disruption of community. As spiritual 
 movements degenerate into religion (belief as opposed to direct experience) I 
 suspect the resistance to testing the metaphysical underpinnings of the 
 enterprise becomes more intense. There are many metaphysical ideas which have 
 testable physical consequences because they are supposed to have a result in 
 the world.
 
 For example global warming does appear to be increasing. The Church of the 
 Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) claims this is because 
 the number of pirates in the world is declining:
 
 http://www.venganza.org/images/PiratesVsTemp.png

A graph!  Aha. That proves it. Thanks:-)
 
 However the number of pirates on the high seas seems to have increased in the 
 past couple of decades from something like 100 to perhaps 3000, largely 
 because of Somalia. This is a serious theological threat to the Church of the 
 Flying Spaghetti Monster (COTFSM) because the number of pirates is 
 increasing, but global temperatures continue to rise. And there are of course 
 online pirates that have increased significantly to, although, strictly 
 speaking, the COTFSM is referring specifically to pirates on the high seas.
 
 The Church here referred to is of course a parody of religious thought, but 
 it is exactly the kind of thinking the TMO expects people to have. Anyone 
 here on this forum who has a spiritual bent, not excluding me either, has 
 probably fallen into the ridiculous logic promoted by this way of thinking 
 one time or another, even without realising it. What we see here on the forum 
 is people that are in various stages of breaking away from that misguided 
 logic, and trying to come to terms with existence as it is, not as we think 
 it ought to be, or more particularly, as someone else thinks we ought to 
 think it to be.
  

Very well said..I too am in that process and it is interesting and not always 
comfortable at all.  Sometimes I miss the fairy tale mentality and the feeling 
that I am pretty certain about things. For example, I wish I still believed in 
reincarnation, but am now not so sure at all about that.  Also, it seems more 
and more likely that awakening is  just a brain state that we encourage thru 
various practices.  It results in the death of the ego, so those who are 
awakened in this way have, in  a sense, already died.  Of course, they are also 
seeing things more for the way they really are, which is good - I think.  So 
they don't really care about life after death since there is no I anyway.  I 
ramble.. and am not thinking so clearly, but you get it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Maharishi's National Yagya Program is a powerful application of the technology 
of Yagya on a national scale to prevent problems and improve the fortune of an 
entire nation. National Yagyas involve especially large groups of Maharishi 
Vedic Pandits located at the Brahmasthan (the geographic center and resonant 
power spot) of India.

These National Yagyas continue over many days or even weeks, depending on the 
size of the desired effect and the magnitude of the problem being averted or 
defused, for example a natural disaster, violent outbreak, or severe economic 
downturn.


 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[azgrey]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:
 
 Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range of their senses 
 by invention, we need finer instrumentation, and a way to filter out the 
 grosser vibrations to be able to sense these other phenomena. By using 
 conventional crude apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.
 

87 ACI

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
  Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range 
  of their senses by invention, we need finer instrumentation, 
  and a way to filter out the grosser vibrations to be able to 
  sense these other phenomena. By using conventional crude 
  apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.
 
 87 ACI

LOL.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.


Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
programs?
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Today the United States TM® organization (Maharishi Foundation USA) is 
launching this Maharishi National Yagya Program in a major way. In conjunction 
with the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation USA, we are directly overseeing the 
highly professional, cost-efficient management of this program to ensure its 
maximal effectiveness in every respect.


 
 
 
  All area Satsangs:
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
 
 Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
 programs?
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
   snip
There have been a number of large well-designed studies
recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
to show any effect.
   
   Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
   the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
   several differences that could render such extraplation
   pretty weak.
   
Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
without making a dent in the scientific community as the
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
the result was disproved.
   
   Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
   
   Do you have a cite for this?
  
  Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
  it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
  in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.
 
 Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
 disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
 Don't care about that one way or the other.


You hate God and Maharishi. Period.
Whether you are correct or accountable in your endless pursuits of putdowns 
does matter the least.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@ wrote:

snip
 There have been a number of large well-designed studies
 recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
 prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
 to show any effect.

Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
several differences that could render such extraplation
pretty weak.

 Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
 without making a dent in the scientific community as the
 results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
 found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
 replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
 distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
 study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
 Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
 the result was disproved.

Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?

Do you have a cite for this?
   
   Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
   it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
   in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.
  
  Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
  disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
  Don't care about that one way or the other.
 
 

You hate God and Maharishi. Period.
Whether you are correct or accountable in your endless pursuits of putdowns 
does not matter the least.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

This post is an epistemological field day!  It brings up many questions about 
how we can be confident about what we know.


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 
 snip
  There have been a number of large well-designed studies
  recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
  prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
  to show any effect.

The question of proof.  Unlike the statement. Jesus saved me so I will live 
forever when I die, these claims about effects in the world can be proven. If 
they were true they would crush all skeptics.  So Xeno had to use as close as 
he could get to even find such a study.  Why is that?  Here is an area where 
believers could shine, so why is this the only study that even comes close to 
these claims?  You could say that the religious people who are most into yagyas 
don't care, but the movement has no such excuse and has been pitching yagyas 
for decades now, the claim is in Maharishi's earliest books.

 
 Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
 the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
 several differences that could render such extraplation
 pretty weak.

Hard to argue with Judy here.  Of course this is a generic criticism whenever 
you have a study that doesn't use exactly the same technique.  So if some yagya 
guys's deal doesn't pan out then it can be claimed that it wasn't Maharishi's 
super yagyas.

But that is why applying science need requires humility and she has a point.

 
  Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
  without making a dent in the scientific community as the
  results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
  found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
  replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
  distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
  study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
  Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
  the result was disproved.

I would expect after all these years of study and people's genuine enthusiasm 
to prove these claims that we would have something substantial to show for it 
all by now.  Is that unreasonable?  I mean when you have claims about things in 
the world you can test why not go for it?  The press would be all over it, they 
even love shitty science on flashy topics.

On the other hand the amount of fraud that has been turned up in these 
demonstrations is appalling.  This is an area where people are determined to 
dupe scientists so you have a separate problem from the usual ones in 
scientific discovery, willful fraud.  What other area of science has so many 
people willing to bullshit scientists? (Well lst's see pharmaceuticals...OK 
every area where money can be made.) So you need a magician in the lab too.  Do 
you need a magician in the lab when you do intelligence tests?  No.  People can 
be deceitful and get it wrong but you don't have such a concerted effort for 
flim-flamery.

If the field wants respect it needs to tighten up, police its own, and produce 
the real deal.  The believers should be the most offended by fraud and the most 
eager to root it out rather than attacking people who are skeptical and try to 
catch the bamboozelers.  

 
 Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
 
 Do you have a cite for this?

Again Judy scores in something important to keep our eye on, the distinction 
between disproving something and not confirming it.  There is a slight spin at 
work here though because in science, not being able to replicate something can 
be a bad sign for the claims.  It depends on the strength of the follow up 
studies and how good the original research was.  If there were fundamental 
flaws in the first studies but not the second, it is as close to disproving as 
you get in science sometimes.  It can be the equivalent to no effect being 
found so no reason to support the claims.  We would have to hear specific 
criticism of the both studies which I'll bet Judy is looking for.   And again 
it should be the believers who are the most rigorous in this area to make sure 
that it gets confirmed.  That is how science helps detect bad protocol. I'll 
have to do some research in this specific study, perhaps the discrediting went 
further than non replication.  


Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.

I don't think this is the best angle on disproving the claim that it is in 
there.  I hope someone checks my SOB is buried under books I am more likely to 
read.

   
   Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
   disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
   Don't care 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 This post is an epistemological field day!  It brings up many questions about 
 how we can be confident about what we know.
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
  snip
   There have been a number of large well-designed studies
   recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
   prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
   to show any effect.
 
 The question of proof.  Unlike the statement. Jesus saved me so I will live 
 forever when I die, these claims about effects in the world can be proven. If 
 they were true they would crush all skeptics.  So Xeno had to use as close as 
 he could get to even find such a study.  Why is that?  Here is an area where 
 believers could shine, so why is this the only study that even comes close to 
 these claims?  You could say that the religious people who are most into 
 yagyas don't care, but the movement has no such excuse and has been pitching 
 yagyas for decades now, the claim is in Maharishi's earliest books.
 
  
  Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
  the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
  several differences that could render such extraplation
  pretty weak.
 
 Hard to argue with Judy here.  Of course this is a generic criticism whenever 
 you have a study that doesn't use exactly the same technique.  So if some 
 yagya guys's deal doesn't pan out then it can be claimed that it wasn't 
 Maharishi's super yagyas.
 
 But that is why applying science need requires humility and she has a point.
 
  
   Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
   without making a dent in the scientific community as the
   results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
   found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
   replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
   distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
   study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
   Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
   the result was disproved.
 
 I would expect after all these years of study and people's genuine enthusiasm 
 to prove these claims that we would have something substantial to show for it 
 all by now.  Is that unreasonable?  I mean when you have claims about things 
 in the world you can test why not go for it?  The press would be all over it, 
 they even love shitty science on flashy topics.
 
 On the other hand the amount of fraud that has been turned up in these 
 demonstrations is appalling.  This is an area where people are determined to 
 dupe scientists so you have a separate problem from the usual ones in 
 scientific discovery, willful fraud.  What other area of science has so many 
 people willing to bullshit scientists? (Well lst's see pharmaceuticals...OK 
 every area where money can be made.) So you need a magician in the lab too.  
 Do you need a magician in the lab when you do intelligence tests?  No.  
 People can be deceitful and get it wrong but you don't have such a concerted 
 effort for flim-flamery.
 
 If the field wants respect it needs to tighten up, police its own, and 
 produce the real deal.  The believers should be the most offended by fraud 
 and the most eager to root it out rather than attacking people who are 
 skeptical and try to catch the bamboozelers.  
 
  
  Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
  
  Do you have a cite for this?
 
 Again Judy scores in something important to keep our eye on, the distinction 
 between disproving something and not confirming it.  There is a slight spin 
 at work here though because in science, not being able to replicate something 
 can be a bad sign for the claims.  It depends on the strength of the follow 
 up studies and how good the original research was.  If there were fundamental 
 flaws in the first studies but not the second, it is as close to disproving 
 as you get in science sometimes.  It can be the equivalent to no effect being 
 found so no reason to support the claims.  We would have to hear specific 
 criticism of the both studies which I'll bet Judy is looking for.   And again 
 it should be the believers who are the most rigorous in this area to make 
 sure that it gets confirmed.  That is how science helps detect bad protocol. 
 I'll have to do some research in this specific study, perhaps the 
 discrediting went further than non replication.  
 
 
 Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
 it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
 in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.
 
 I don't think this is the best angle on disproving the claim that it is in 
 there.  I hope someone checks my SOB is buried 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 This post is an epistemological field day!  It brings up many questions about 
 how we can be confident about what we know.
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
  snip
   There have been a number of large well-designed studies
   recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
   prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
   to show any effect.
 
 The question of proof.  Unlike the statement. Jesus saved me so I will live 
 forever when I die, these claims about effects in the world can be proven. If 
 they were true they would crush all skeptics.  So Xeno had to use as close as 
 he could get to even find such a study.  Why is that?  Here is an area where 
 believers could shine, so why is this the only study that even comes close to 
 these claims?  You could say that the religious people who are most into 
 yagyas don't care, but the movement has no such excuse and has been pitching 
 yagyas for decades now, the claim is in Maharishi's earliest books.
 
  
  Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
  the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
  several differences that could render such extraplation
  pretty weak.
 
 Hard to argue with Judy here.  Of course this is a generic
 criticism whenever you have a study that doesn't use exactly
 the same technique.  So if some yagya guys's deal doesn't pan
 out then it can be claimed that it wasn't Maharishi's super
 yagyas.

Don't quite understand the last sentence here. What
super yagyas?

 But that is why applying science need requires humility and
 she has a point.

FWIW, the major difference between intercessory prayer
and yagyas is that the kind of prayer that was tested,
as I understand it, was free-form and ad lib among those
who were praying; whereas there is no such variation
with yagyas: they're performed ritualistically, strictly
according to prescribed formulas, not just the words
uttered but every movement, every bit of physical
paraphernalia used, etc., etc., most likely including
aspects I'm not even aware of.

In this regard a yagya is more like the Catholic Mass,
although obviously the purposes there are different.

The fact that TM is taught and practiced in a strictly
prescribed manner, as it happens, makes it an ideal
technique for scientific study of their effects 
because the variables are minimal, in contrast to
many other techniques.

Ironically, this same characteristic *should* also
make yagyas ideal for scientific study. But there are
problems with variables in terms of the predicted
*effects*, which are typically not very specific, and
which do not include a time frame. That introduces
the issue of unfalsifiability.

If a yagya is performed, say, for an individual's
increased prosperity, and no increase in the
individual's income is apparent after six months, has
the efficacy of the yagya been shown to be
nonexistent? If those doing a study of an individual
yagya imposed such specifics on the predicted effects
in advance, could you still even call what they were
studying a yagya? To what degree can you tighten up
the protocols before you stray from what should have
been the original purpose of the yagya?

It all gets very complicated when you take this sort
of thing into account.

   Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied
   for years without making a dent in the scientific 
   community as the results have never been clear cut,
   and studies have been found to contain serious
   flaws which became evident when replication
   attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
   distance viewing study many years ago. The result
   of this study seems to have been mentioned by MMY
   in the Science of Being and Art of Living as an 
   established fact, but in fact, the result was
   disproved.
snip
  Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
  
  Do you have a cite for this?
 
 Again Judy scores in something important to keep our eye on,
 the distinction between disproving something and not
 confirming it.  There is a slight spin at work here though
 because in science, not being able to replicate something
 can be a bad sign for the claims.

Of course. Where's the spin? Disproved is just
inaccurate terminology.

 It depends on the strength of the follow up studies and how good 
 the original research was.  If there were fundamental flaws in
 the first studies but not the second, it is as close to
 disproving as you get in science sometimes.

Right. But you still can't say the first study's results
were disproved.

 It can be the 
 equivalent to no effect being found so no reason to support the 
 claims.  We would have to hear specific criticism of the both 
 studies which I'll bet Judy is looking for.   And 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 
 What I want to know is, to whom was Nabby addressing this
 remark? It appeared to be in response to my follow-up
 post quoted immediately above it. That seems unlikely, but
 it also seems unlikely with regard to either whynotnow or
 Xeno, so I'm baffled.
 
 I certainly intended no putdown of MMY or God (??). 


Ofcourse, I know this very well Judy. My post was a comment to Curtis' 
neverending rants about anything he can't see/hear etc with his restricted 
senses or understand with his restricted intelligence.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

Many of these things/ideas will eventually hold up to scrutiny as you put it.
But it may take time. Like Maharishi suggested it could take 400 years.

Awesome, then sign me up for 50 yagyas and I'll pay in 400 years.

If the effects are claimed to be within our lifetime however, they could set up 
a way to demonstrate this beyond: people who also thought the heart organ was 
the center of our cognitive ability thought this was also true.

 Others,
not so long, like the UFO phenomenon for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FQuTnnVXM4feature=player_embedded

I like that guy. And as long as you are talking unidentified flying objects who 
could have a problem?  The word. unidentified is the key.  It is when you 
claim that you have identified them as aliens that you jump the shark.

Things are happening fast, both inner and outer. Unfortunately Curtis is 
holdingon to the same old, same old as if nothing happened. That's a shame and 
why I'm pointing it out. His thinking is a cry from a dying age.

Shooting the messenger for pointing out a lack of good reasons is really the 
old school thinking.  Asking the movement to demonstrate the effects in the 
world they claim has been a popular style of thinking since the real age of 
enlightenment when we switched from church authority based knowledge to Hey 
Tony wuddya say we take dis car on a test ride before we put the kids in the 
back seat and drive to the Jersey Shore?










 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  This post is an epistemological field day!  It brings up many questions 
  about how we can be confident about what we know.
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
   snip
There have been a number of large well-designed studies
recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
to show any effect.
  
  The question of proof.  Unlike the statement. Jesus saved me so I will live 
  forever when I die, these claims about effects in the world can be proven. 
  If they were true they would crush all skeptics.  So Xeno had to use as 
  close as he could get to even find such a study.  Why is that?  Here is an 
  area where believers could shine, so why is this the only study that even 
  comes close to these claims?  You could say that the religious people who 
  are most into yagyas don't care, but the movement has no such excuse and 
  has been pitching yagyas for decades now, the claim is in Maharishi's 
  earliest books.
  
   
   Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
   the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
   several differences that could render such extraplation
   pretty weak.
  
  Hard to argue with Judy here.  Of course this is a generic criticism 
  whenever you have a study that doesn't use exactly the same technique.  So 
  if some yagya guys's deal doesn't pan out then it can be claimed that it 
  wasn't Maharishi's super yagyas.
  
  But that is why applying science need requires humility and she has a point.
  
   
Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
without making a dent in the scientific community as the
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
the result was disproved.
  
  I would expect after all these years of study and people's genuine 
  enthusiasm to prove these claims that we would have something substantial 
  to show for it all by now.  Is that unreasonable?  I mean when you have 
  claims about things in the world you can test why not go for it?  The press 
  would be all over it, they even love shitty science on flashy topics.
  
  On the other hand the amount of fraud that has been turned up in these 
  demonstrations is appalling.  This is an area where people are determined 
  to dupe scientists so you have a separate problem from the usual ones in 
  scientific discovery, willful fraud.  What other area of science has so 
  many people willing to bullshit scientists? (Well lst's see 
  pharmaceuticals...OK every area where money can be made.) So you need a 
  magician in the lab too.  Do you need a magician in the lab when you do 
  intelligence tests?  No.  People can be deceitful and get it wrong but you 
  don't have such a concerted effort for flim-flamery.
  
  If the field wants respect it needs to tighten up, police its own, and 
  produce 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
  What I want to know is, to whom was Nabby addressing this
  remark? It appeared to be in response to my follow-up
  post quoted immediately above it. That seems unlikely, but
  it also seems unlikely with regard to either whynotnow or
  Xeno, so I'm baffled.
  
  I certainly intended no putdown of MMY or God (??). 
 
 Ofcourse, I know this very well Judy. My post was a comment to
 Curtis' neverending rants about anything he can't see/hear etc
 with his restricted senses or understand with his restricted 
 intelligence.

OK, thanks for letting me know. It's just that Curtis hadn't
contributed at all to the post you were responding to.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   
   What I want to know is, to whom was Nabby addressing this
   remark? It appeared to be in response to my follow-up
   post quoted immediately above it. That seems unlikely, but
   it also seems unlikely with regard to either whynotnow or
   Xeno, so I'm baffled.
   
   I certainly intended no putdown of MMY or God (??). 
  
  Ofcourse, I know this very well Judy. My post was a comment to
  Curtis' neverending rants about anything he can't see/hear etc
  with his restricted senses or understand with his restricted 
  intelligence.
 
 OK, thanks for letting me know. It's just that Curtis hadn't
 contributed at all to the post you were responding to.


His rants are there, hence my respons.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
 snip
  There have been a number of large well-designed studies
  recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
  prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
  to show any effect.
 
 Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
 the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
 several differences that could render such extrapolation
 pretty weak.

Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to rely 
on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical intervention via 
the human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum here is how does 
something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would 
currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the weak force, or 
the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 
'consciousness' does not help at present because scientists cannot agree on 
what consciousness is or whether it can actually do anything.

 
  Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
  without making a dent in the scientific community as the
  results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
  found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
  replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
  distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
  study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
  Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
  the result was disproved.
 
 Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right? 

Yes, not confirmed, the null hypothesis confirmed. 'Proven' is loose usage.
 
 Do you have a cite for this?

Marks, D.F.  Kammann, R. (1980). The Psychology of the Psychic. Buffalo, New 
York: Prometheus Books.ISBN 0-87975-121-5 (cloth)

I read this many years ago and I think there may be a second edition. It went 
over the Targ-Puthoff remote viewing experiments. As I recall, a replication of 
the experiment failed to confirm. Their subsequent investigation showed that 
the replicators had removed verbal queues that allowed the graders to match up 
locations with drawings. This had something to do with how the hits and misses 
of remote viewing experiment were categorised. When they were able to get raw 
data from Targ and Putoff, they found such verbal information in the data. When 
the same data was truly blinded, the remote viewing failed with the original 
experimental data.

The Templeton Study was done by Herbert Benson.
http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(05)00649-6/abstract

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

...Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to rely on 
'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical intervention via the 
human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum here is how does 
something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would 
currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the weak force, or 
the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 
'consciousness' does not help at present because scientists cannot agree on 
what consciousness is or whether it can actually do anything.

Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range of their senses 
by invention, we need finer instrumentation, and a way to filter out the 
grosser vibrations to be able to sense these other phenomena. By using 
conventional crude apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
  snip
   There have been a number of large well-designed studies
   recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
   prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
   to show any effect.
  
  Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
  the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
  several differences that could render such extrapolation
  pretty weak.
 
 Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to rely 
 on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical intervention via 
 the human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum here is how does 
 something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would 
 currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the weak force, or 
 the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 
 'consciousness' does not help at present because scientists cannot agree on 
 what consciousness is or whether it can actually do anything.
 
  
   Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
   without making a dent in the scientific community as the
   results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
   found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
   replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
   distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
   study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
   Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
   the result was disproved.
  
  Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right? 
 
 Yes, not confirmed, the null hypothesis confirmed. 'Proven' is loose usage.
  
  Do you have a cite for this?
 
 Marks, D.F.  Kammann, R. (1980). The Psychology of the Psychic. Buffalo, New 
 York: Prometheus Books.ISBN 0-87975-121-5 (cloth)
 
 I read this many years ago and I think there may be a second edition. It went 
 over the Targ-Puthoff remote viewing experiments. As I recall, a replication 
 of the experiment failed to confirm. Their subsequent investigation showed 
 that the replicators had removed verbal queues that allowed the graders to 
 match up locations with drawings. This had something to do with how the hits 
 and misses of remote viewing experiment were categorised. When they were able 
 to get raw data from Targ and Putoff, they found such verbal information in 
 the data. When the same data was truly blinded, the remote viewing failed 
 with the original experimental data.
 
 The Templeton Study was done by Herbert Benson.
 http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(05)00649-6/abstract

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 ...Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to rely 
 on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical intervention via 
 the human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum here is how does 
 something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would 
 currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the weak force, or 
 the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 
 'consciousness' does not help at present because scientists cannot agree on 
 what consciousness is or whether it can actually do anything.
 
 Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range of their senses 
 by invention, we need finer instrumentation, and a way to filter out the 
 grosser vibrations to be able to sense these other phenomena. By using 
 conventional crude apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.

The current approach is based on taking physical phenomenon as a baseline and 
continuing to discover based on that paradigm. What is needed is an approach 
that assumes the presence of phenomena in higher frequency ranges (x1000), 
similar to the discovery of fields in the ultraviolet and infrared spectrum.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
   snip
There have been a number of large well-designed studies
recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
to show any effect.
   
   Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
   the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
   several differences that could render such extrapolation
   pretty weak.
  
  Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to 
  rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical 
  intervention via the human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum 
  here is how does something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A 
  physicist would currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, 
  the weak force, or the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a 
  thing. Saying it is 'consciousness' does not help at present because 
  scientists cannot agree on what consciousness is or whether it can actually 
  do anything.
  
   
Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
without making a dent in the scientific community as the
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
the result was disproved.
   
   Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right? 
  
  Yes, not confirmed, the null hypothesis confirmed. 'Proven' is loose usage.
   
   Do you have a cite for this?
  
  Marks, D.F.  Kammann, R. (1980). The Psychology of the Psychic. Buffalo, 
  New York: Prometheus Books.ISBN 0-87975-121-5 (cloth)
  
  I read this many years ago and I think there may be a second edition. It 
  went over the Targ-Puthoff remote viewing experiments. As I recall, a 
  replication of the experiment failed to confirm. Their subsequent 
  investigation showed that the replicators had removed verbal queues that 
  allowed the graders to match up locations with drawings. This had something 
  to do with how the hits and misses of remote viewing experiment were 
  categorised. When they were able to get raw data from Targ and Putoff, they 
  found such verbal information in the data. When the same data was truly 
  blinded, the remote viewing failed with the original experimental data.
  
  The Templeton Study was done by Herbert Benson.
  http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703(05)00649-6/abstract
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
   snip
There have been a number of large well-designed studies
recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
to show any effect.
   
   Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
   the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
   several differences that could render such extraplation
   pretty weak.
   
Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
without making a dent in the scientific community as the
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
the result was disproved.
   
   Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
   
   Do you have a cite for this?
  
  Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
  it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
  in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.
 
 Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
 disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
 Don't care about that one way or the other.

I just recall that SBAL had a comment that long distance action or something 
like that was in there as if it were an established fact. The only experiment I 
knew of around the time the book came out were the Targ-Putoff experiments. 
Unfortunately I do not have a copy of SBAL with me, and perhaps I have 
incorrectly remembered this comment. I read it somewhere. It also might only be 
in the version not edited by the TMO published as a paperback, that is the very 
first printing before the revised edition came out. But MMY's book came out in 
1963 before those experiments, so if I remembered correctly, it could not have 
been a reference to Targ and Puthoff's work. Maybe MMY (if I am not 
mistaken,that is) got it from Charlie Lutes, who was pretty esoteric in those 
early days.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

could be. I'm willing to go either way. I recall I was predisposed to finding 
esoteric bits in spiritual books at the time, and found precious few in 
Maharishi's stuff. Having said that, I read the book in 1977...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@ wrote:

snip
 There have been a number of large well-designed studies
 recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
 prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
 to show any effect.

Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
several differences that could render such extraplation
pretty weak.

 Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
 without making a dent in the scientific community as the
 results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
 found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
 replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
 distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
 study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
 Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
 the result was disproved.

Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?

Do you have a cite for this?
   
   Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
   it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
   in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.
  
  Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
  disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
  Don't care about that one way or the other.
 
 I just recall that SBAL had a comment that long distance action or something 
 like that was in there as if it were an established fact. The only experiment 
 I knew of around the time the book came out were the Targ-Putoff experiments. 
 Unfortunately I do not have a copy of SBAL with me, and perhaps I have 
 incorrectly remembered this comment. I read it somewhere. It also might only 
 be in the version not edited by the TMO published as a paperback, that is the 
 very first printing before the revised edition came out. But MMY's book came 
 out in 1963 before those experiments, so if I remembered correctly, it could 
 not have been a reference to Targ and Puthoff's work. Maybe MMY (if I am not 
 mistaken,that is) got it from Charlie Lutes, who was pretty esoteric in those 
 early days.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  ...Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to rely 
  on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical intervention 
  via the human mind and experience. The philosophical conundrum here is how 
  does something that is non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist 
  would currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the weak 
  force, or the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain such a thing. 
  Saying it is 'consciousness' does not help at present because scientists 
  cannot agree on what consciousness is or whether it can actually do 
  anything.
  
  Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range of their 
  senses by invention, we need finer instrumentation, and a way to filter out 
  the grosser vibrations to be able to sense these other phenomena. By using 
  conventional crude apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.
 
 The current approach is based on taking physical phenomenon as a baseline and 
 continuing to discover based on that paradigm. What is needed is an approach 
 that assumes the presence of phenomena in higher frequency ranges (x1000), 
 similar to the discovery of fields in the ultraviolet and infrared spectrum.

I have never quite been able to grasp what 'higher frequency ranges' in 
relation to psychic phenomena means. It is a scientific term, but it is being 
applied to what? X-rays and Gamma rays are a higher frequency range, but they 
are entirely physical. Also, if the universe is in a real sense a unity, there 
is a unified field, does this not imply that the spiritual value of life and 
the physical value of life are one and the same?

I have always taken the arguments that there are more subtle undetectable 
levels or higher frequencies to mean that I will never be able to detect what 
is being talked about, and so, I will never be able to disconfirm what is being 
said because it will always be beyond me, and therefore, the speaker who is 
discussing this with me will always be able to be right, at least in his/her 
own mind.

This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, an informal logical fallacy. Scientists 
work the opposite way. If you can demonstrate what you say, then they will 
accept what you say. Otherwise you have to keep working at it to come to a 
positive result. The absence of a result does not demonstrate there is 
something more that is undetected. It does not mean something might never be 
there, it just means you do not know.

Everything we actually know is direct experience, seeing, cognition right now. 
Everything else is memory, inference, belief (assuming something is true 
without any evidence it is so), repeating what others say they think is real 
and so on. What we actually know for sure is not very extensive. Enlightenment, 
in my view, is what shows us what we know for sure, but my saying that does not 
make the statement true or real for someone who has not had this experience. I 
would say those who do have this experience probably know a lot less than they 
knew before they had it.

  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@ wrote:

snip
 There have been a number of large well-designed studies
 recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
 prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
 to show any effect.

Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
several differences that could render such extrapolation
pretty weak.
   
   Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to 
   rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical 
   intervention via the human mind and experience. The philosophical 
   conundrum here is how does something that is non-physical affect a 
   physical entity. A physicist would currently have to rely on gravity, the 
   strong interaction, the weak force, or the electromagnetic force to 
   attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 'consciousness' does not 
   help at present because scientists cannot agree on what consciousness is 
   or whether it can actually do anything.
   

 Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
 without making a dent in the scientific community as the
 results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
 found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
 replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
 distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
 study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
   ...Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem to 
   rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical 
   intervention via the human mind and experience. The philosophical 
   conundrum here is how does something that is non-physical affect a 
   physical entity. A physicist would currently have to rely on gravity, the 
   strong interaction, the weak force, or the electromagnetic force to 
   attempt to explain such a thing. Saying it is 'consciousness' does not 
   help at present because scientists cannot agree on what consciousness is 
   or whether it can actually do anything.
   
   Agreed, just as scientists have been able to extend the range of their 
   senses by invention, we need finer instrumentation, and a way to filter 
   out the grosser vibrations to be able to sense these other phenomena. By 
   using conventional crude apparatus, there is little more to discover, imo.
  
  The current approach is based on taking physical phenomenon as a baseline 
  and continuing to discover based on that paradigm. What is needed is an 
  approach that assumes the presence of phenomena in higher frequency ranges 
  (x1000), similar to the discovery of fields in the ultraviolet and infrared 
  spectrum.
 
 I have never quite been able to grasp what 'higher frequency ranges' in 
 relation to psychic phenomena means. It is a scientific term, but it is being 
 applied to what? X-rays and Gamma rays are a higher frequency range, but they 
 are entirely physical. 

** True, but not apparent unaided by instruments. My analogy is not exact.

Also, if the universe is in a real sense a unity, there is a unified field, 
does this not imply that the spiritual value of life and the physical value of 
life are one and the same?

** Yes it does, but I thought you were examining ways in which science might 
verify psychic phenomena.
 
 I have always taken the arguments that there are more subtle undetectable 
 levels or higher frequencies to mean that I will never be able to detect what 
 is being talked about, and so, I will never be able to disconfirm what is 
 being said because it will always be beyond me, and therefore, the speaker 
 who is discussing this with me will always be able to be right, at least in 
 his/her own mind.

** You lost me. I am going on personal experience and attempting to figure out 
how such an experience could be detected by instruments. The reason I thought 
of higher frequencies is because that is what they look and sound like. As to 
how to achieve such sensitivities in such instruments is beyond me. 
 
 This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, an informal logical fallacy. 
 Scientists work the opposite way. If you can demonstrate what you say, then 
 they will accept what you say. Otherwise you have to keep working at it to 
 come to a positive result. The absence of a result does not demonstrate there 
 is something more that is undetected. It does not mean something might never 
 be there, it just means you do not know.
 
 Everything we actually know is direct experience, seeing, cognition right 
 now. Everything else is memory, inference, belief (assuming something is true 
 without any evidence it is so), repeating what others say they think is real 
 and so on. What we actually know for sure is not very extensive. 
 Enlightenment, in my view, is what shows us what we know for sure, but my 
 saying that does not make the statement true or real for someone who has not 
 had this experience. I would say those who do have this experience probably 
 know a lot less than they knew before they had it.
 
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
 anartaxius@ wrote:
 
 snip
  There have been a number of large well-designed studies
  recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
  prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
  to show any effect.
 
 Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
 the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
 several differences that could render such extrapolation
 pretty weak.

Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they both seem 
to rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind of non-physical 
intervention via the human mind and experience. The philosophical 
conundrum here is how does something that is non-physical affect a 
physical entity. A physicist would currently have to rely on gravity, 
the strong interaction, the weak force, or the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Seems saddening to see that the dome numbers with the meditator community are 
not working out for the tru-believers and that the Invincibility courses should 
be supplanted and let go this way.  The potential was so great, except the 
Rajas could not bring themselves to figure out a reconciliation with the old 
meditating community.

 
 
  
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
 
 Om, Is this now the high-water mark for the dome numbers? The invincible 
 programs?
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
  snip
   There have been a number of large well-designed studies
   recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
   prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
   to show any effect.
  
  Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
  the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
  several differences that could render such extrapolation
  pretty weak.
 
 Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they
 both seem to rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind
 of non-physical intervention via the human mind and experience.
 The philosophical conundrum here is how does something that is
 non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would
 currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the
 weak force, or the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain
 such a thing. Saying it is 'consciousness' does not help at
 present because scientists cannot agree on what consciousness
 is or whether it can actually do anything.

Sure. It's just that the methodology of each is so different
(see my comments to Curtis for one huge difference) that
extrapolating from tests of one to the efficacy of the other
really doesn't make much sense.

   Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
   without making a dent in the scientific community as the
   results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
   found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
   replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
   distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
   study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
   Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
   the result was disproved.
  
  Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right? 
 
 Yes, not confirmed, the null hypothesis confirmed. 'Proven'
 is loose usage.

To my mind, it's misleading. Not that you intended to 
mislead; just saying.

  Do you have a cite for this?
 
 Marks, D.F.  Kammann, R. (1980). The Psychology of the Psychic. 
 Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books.ISBN 0-87975-121-5 (cloth)
 
 I read this many years ago and I think there may be a second 
 edition. It went over the Targ-Puthoff remote viewing 
 experiments. As I recall, a replication of the experiment
 failed to confirm.

OK. Was the replication study published in a journal, or
just in the book, do you recall?

 Their subsequent investigation showed that the replicators had
 removed verbal queues that allowed the graders to match up 
 locations with drawings. This had something to do with how the
 hits and misses of remote viewing experiment were categorised.
 When they were able to get raw data from Targ and Putoff, they 
 found such verbal information in the data. When the same data
 was truly blinded, the remote viewing failed with the original 
 experimental data.

I looked up the book on Amazon (the second edition).
There were a couple of positive reader reviews and a
couple of negative ones. One of the negative ones had
this to say:

In their 'replication' of Targ's remote viewing experiments the authors 
selected as the viewers a few students and a housewife who 'believed themselves 
to be psychic to some degree.' Of course, they did not believe in the existence 
of the phenomena they were testing -- otherwise they might have allowed 
themselves to make the assumption that it might require someone who practices. 
If you were testing 'exceptional athletic abilities' would you select a subject 
who played softball once a year and 'believed he was athletic to some degree' 
or would you select a professional athlete? For remote viewing, you could 
select members of the Hawaii Remote Viewers' Guild, for example. Their intent 
was not to study the phenomena using an open-minded scientific approach, but to 
'debunk' it - in the typical sarcastic style.

I gather it wasn't the authors of the book who did the
replication study, but this is an interesting point. If the
replication had been attempted without verbal cues but with
practiced remote viewers, would the results have been the
same? (Targ and Puthoff, I believe, did use practiced remote
viewers.)

Do you know whether Targ and Puthoff responded substantively
to the critique in the book? I'm not any more inclined to
take a debunking of a study conducted by careful scientists
like Targ and Puthoff at face value than I am whatever the
study claims to prove (unless there's hard evidence of
outright fraud). I've just seen too many instances of the
original researchers responding to a debunking by pointing out 
sloppiness, ignorance, misinterpretation, and sometimes even
outright misrepresentation of their studies on the part of the debunkers. I 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
   anartaxius@ wrote:
   
   snip
There have been a number of large well-designed studies
recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
to show any effect.
   
   Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
   the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
   several differences that could render such extrapolation
   pretty weak.
  
  Judy, Yagyas and intercessory prayer are different but they
  both seem to rely on 'action at a distance' through some kind
  of non-physical intervention via the human mind and experience.
  The philosophical conundrum here is how does something that is
  non-physical affect a physical entity. A physicist would
  currently have to rely on gravity, the strong interaction, the
  weak force, or the electromagnetic force to attempt to explain
  such a thing. Saying it is 'consciousness' does not help at
  present because scientists cannot agree on what consciousness
  is or whether it can actually do anything.
 
 Sure. It's just that the methodology of each is so different
 (see my comments to Curtis for one huge difference) that
 extrapolating from tests of one to the efficacy of the other
 really doesn't make much sense.
 
Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
without making a dent in the scientific community as the
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
the result was disproved.
   
   Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right? 
  
  Yes, not confirmed, the null hypothesis confirmed. 'Proven'
  is loose usage.
 
 To my mind, it's misleading. Not that you intended to 
 mislead; just saying.
 
   Do you have a cite for this?
  
  Marks, D.F.  Kammann, R. (1980). The Psychology of the Psychic. 
  Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books.ISBN 0-87975-121-5 (cloth)
  
  I read this many years ago and I think there may be a second 
  edition. It went over the Targ-Puthoff remote viewing 
  experiments. As I recall, a replication of the experiment
  failed to confirm.
 
 OK. Was the replication study published in a journal, or
 just in the book, do you recall?

I only read of it in the book. I am assuming (without recollection) that 
references are in the book, which I no longer have. I remember the analysis of 
the experiment was quite detailed, and why they thought it was not a valid 
confirmation. One problem in this area is believers are so convinced they are 
correct that negative results do not faze them, and non-believers are also 
often exactly the same and no amount of proof will convince them either. But 
there are definite ways to design an experiment, and at least a few good 
scientists exist that do take care to try not to fool themselves; falling into 
the trap of one's own belief is psychologically quite difficult to surmount. It 
amounts to setting up an experiment in a way that attacks every point you can 
think of to prove what you think is wrong. Not everyone seems suited to this 
task.

One of the most fun essays on this was Richard Feynman's 'Cargo Cult Science': 
http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.php
 
  Their subsequent investigation showed that the replicators had
  removed verbal queues that allowed the graders to match up 
  locations with drawings. This had something to do with how the
  hits and misses of remote viewing experiment were categorised.
  When they were able to get raw data from Targ and Putoff, they 
  found such verbal information in the data. When the same data
  was truly blinded, the remote viewing failed with the original 
  experimental data.
 
 I looked up the book on Amazon (the second edition).
 There were a couple of positive reader reviews and a
 couple of negative ones. One of the negative ones had
 this to say:
 
 In their 'replication' of Targ's remote viewing experiments the authors 
 selected as the viewers a few students and a housewife who 'believed 
 themselves to be psychic to some degree.' Of course, they did not believe in 
 the existence of the phenomena they were testing -- otherwise they might have 
 allowed themselves to make the assumption that it might require someone who 
 practices. If you were testing 'exceptional athletic abilities' would you 
 select a subject who played softball once a year and 'believed he was 
 athletic to 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.



 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Om,
Mission Control, 
does this mark the end of the group Yogic-Flying Invincible Programs?


 Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.
 
 
  All area Satsangs:
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

In the dark of the winter night, just
what is Sweden doing buying so many Maharishi National Yagyas?


 Om,
 Mission Control, 
 does this mark the end of the group Yogic-Flying Invincible Programs?
 
 
  Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.
  
  
   All area Satsangs:
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
   
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
   
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.  Let us launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
   race.
   
   Jai Guru Dev
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

 In the dark of the winter night, just
 what is Sweden doing buying so many Maharishi National Yagyas?


Yep, those dang hegemonic Swedes.  Something is up.  Keep an eye on them. 
 
  Om,
  Mission Control, 
  does this mark the end of the group Yogic-Flying Invincible Programs?
  
  
   Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.
   
   
All area Satsangs:
While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.

  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
Join us in this great endeavor, please.  Let us launch this powerful new
program,
may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
race.

Jai Guru Dev
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Germany right now is way ahead of the Brits and Yanks in National Yagyas.


 
 
  In the dark of the winter night, just
  what is Sweden doing buying so many Maharishi National Yagyas?
 
 
 Yep, those dang hegemonic Swedes.  Something is up.  Keep an eye on them. 
  
   Om,
   Mission Control, 
   does this mark the end of the group Yogic-Flying Invincible Programs?
   
   
Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.


 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed 
 surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.  Let us launch this powerful 
 new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Buck]

Winston Churchill counseled for the Brits to stick with the Americans,  there's 
a sound place now in this new and shifting world order for an old alliance of 
National Yagya.  East against west. 


 
 Germany right now is way ahead of the Brits and Yanks in National Yagyas.
 
 
  
  
   In the dark of the winter night, just
   what is Sweden doing buying so many Maharishi National Yagyas?
  
  
  Yep, those dang hegemonic Swedes.  Something is up.  Keep an eye on them. 
   
Om,
Mission Control, 
does this mark the end of the group Yogic-Flying Invincible Programs?


 Houston, we detect a Yagya gap.
 
 
  All area Satsangs:
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed 
  surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming 
  today.
  
[LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world 
  has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.  Let us launch this 
  powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
  
  Jai Guru Dev
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

And with this announcement we enter the realm of the testable. Let's break it 
down:

 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge of 
 positivity for the general well-being of society, 

Actually sidhis themselves included many testable behaviors. But that didn't 
really pan out too well did it?  No one was able to produce something specific 
that would prove the theory.  It could have happened, Maharishi predicted it 
would happen, but it did not happen.

So they changed the claim to something they could paint a circle around and 
claim victory, the panacea snake oil of generalized non-directed surge (I 
think I saw that flick when it came out on VHS, It stars Ginger Lynn who 
claimed to have a detachable jaw and in the third scene with the pizza delivery 
guy made me a believer.  Now that's what you call a convincing demo of a 
claim!) 

So they could have given a demo that would have changed the world forever with 
the sidhis.  The finding lost objects one that Larry Domash bragged about doing 
would have been enough, and we would have given Jonathan Shear's claim of 
understanding a squirrel a polite pass.  But they didn't, which in the rest of 
the world is known as, they couldn't. They got off the hook by changing the 
claim to be so broad that, hey look a squirrel worked for movement believers. 
 It did not impress the world at large who pretty much unanimously responded to 
all these claims with Yeah right, hey do you want to go grab a coffee?

But happy days are here again folks, if the movement will step up they have a 
chance once again to redeem themselves and convert the world.  All that is 
needed is for them to produce exactly what they are claiming to.  And before 
you are too quick to say oh that Curtis is being a butthole again think about 
this for a minute.  This is a chance for them to prove to the world that their 
claims are true, so why are they not doing it in a form that the rest of us 
could appreciate?  The fulfillment of the world plan is right there in front of 
them, isn't it?  Am I being unreasonable for asking them for a convincing demo? 
 When did TM become the a branch of the Evangelical Church of Jesus the 
Redeemer?  Why is faith necessary when a demo is possible? 

Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.

All they have to do is pick 3 things.  3 things that need yagya-ing.  3 things 
that are broken or not enough of something or too much of something we don't 
want.  Why is it improper in principle to insist that they first put their 
money where their mouth is with a decent demo of this effect that we can all 
see if in fact it is specific?  Why aren't they the ones insisting on one if 
they are so sure of this that they will accept people's money for them?  Hell, 
they deserve to put down a wager with all of us skeptics.  If they could do X 
then it is reasonable for them to ask us to pony up and pay for the next round, 
right?

So I challenge any believers in yagyas here to come up with 3 things that we 
could verify that Yagyas could fix.  I believe it deals with the issue of the 
simultaneity not equaling causation problem by asking for 3.  Wouldn't that do 
it?  And if it isn't scientifically airtight (also an anatomically enlightening 
scene in the above mentioned movie) wouldn't it be a good faith demo worthy of 
more research?  Since the whole TM thing is not supposed to be faith based why 
is it out of line to expect that they do what they claim first?  

But they wont, and I have a pretty good idea of why.  I saw this routine before 
with the sidhis. Nobody ever guesses which shell the pea is under in this game. 
  











--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not sure it 
makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are provable 
scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge science and yoga 
as necessary to bring his message to the West initially, now that so many 
teachers and methods are here, it has become more of a spiritual cafeteria in 
terms of what each of us decides benefits us as a practice, vs. which technique 
can be proved rigorously by science. 

I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already been 
exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions and although I got a lot out 
of each one, the practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually 
won out. I am not arguing for TM, but rather to show that the science is nice 
to have but not a must have when deciding which technique to adopt as a regular 
practice.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 And with this announcement we enter the realm of the testable. Let's break it 
 down:
 
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge of 
  positivity for the general well-being of society, 
 
 Actually sidhis themselves included many testable behaviors. But that didn't 
 really pan out too well did it?  No one was able to produce something 
 specific that would prove the theory.  It could have happened, Maharishi 
 predicted it would happen, but it did not happen.
 
 So they changed the claim to something they could paint a circle around and 
 claim victory, the panacea snake oil of generalized non-directed surge (I 
 think I saw that flick when it came out on VHS, It stars Ginger Lynn who 
 claimed to have a detachable jaw and in the third scene with the pizza 
 delivery guy made me a believer.  Now that's what you call a convincing demo 
 of a claim!) 
 
 So they could have given a demo that would have changed the world forever 
 with the sidhis.  The finding lost objects one that Larry Domash bragged 
 about doing would have been enough, and we would have given Jonathan Shear's 
 claim of understanding a squirrel a polite pass.  But they didn't, which in 
 the rest of the world is known as, they couldn't. They got off the hook by 
 changing the claim to be so broad that, hey look a squirrel worked for 
 movement believers.  It did not impress the world at large who pretty much 
 unanimously responded to all these claims with Yeah right, hey do you want 
 to go grab a coffee?
 
 But happy days are here again folks, if the movement will step up they have a 
 chance once again to redeem themselves and convert the world.  All that is 
 needed is for them to produce exactly what they are claiming to.  And before 
 you are too quick to say oh that Curtis is being a butthole again think 
 about this for a minute.  This is a chance for them to prove to the world 
 that their claims are true, so why are they not doing it in a form that the 
 rest of us could appreciate?  The fulfillment of the world plan is right 
 there in front of them, isn't it?  Am I being unreasonable for asking them 
 for a convincing demo?  When did TM become the a branch of the Evangelical 
 Church of Jesus the Redeemer?  Why is faith necessary when a demo is 
 possible? 
 
 Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
 All they have to do is pick 3 things.  3 things that need yagya-ing.  3 
 things that are broken or not enough of something or too much of something we 
 don't want.  Why is it improper in principle to insist that they first put 
 their money where their mouth is with a decent demo of this effect that we 
 can all see if in fact it is specific?  Why aren't they the ones insisting on 
 one if they are so sure of this that they will accept people's money for 
 them?  Hell, they deserve to put down a wager with all of us skeptics.  If 
 they could do X then it is reasonable for them to ask us to pony up and pay 
 for the next round, right?
 
 So I challenge any believers in yagyas here to come up with 3 things that we 
 could verify that Yagyas could fix.  I believe it deals with the issue of the 
 simultaneity not equaling causation problem by asking for 3.  Wouldn't that 
 do it?  And if it isn't scientifically airtight (also an anatomically 
 enlightening scene in the above mentioned movie) wouldn't it be a good faith 
 demo worthy of more research?  Since the whole TM thing is not supposed to be 
 faith based why is it out of line to expect that they do what they claim 
 first?  
 
 But they wont, and I have a pretty good idea of why.  I saw this routine 
 before with the sidhis. Nobody ever guesses which shell the pea is under in 
 this game.   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
 
  All area Satsangs:
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Good stuff Buck. The most powerful way to help the family, community, town, 
city, state and country is to establish oneself in liberation. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
   [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.
 
 Jai Guru Dev

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind of 
claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much sense 
through the perspective in this sentence:

practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.

You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.

If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good faith 
could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need for 
demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is about the 
world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly aw shucks ain't 
that a sight Ma kind of way.

You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept that for 
people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the message go out to 
more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it wasn't the science rap that 
drew you in, it was the thing that made it rise above other spiritual practices 
in popularity.

So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why isn't 
this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this knowledge 
and preserve Maharishi's teaching.  

So on an individual level, sure I agree.  But this is a claim about the world 
and it will involve cash from donors right?  

There are plenty of ways that we use to distinguish fact from fantasy in life.  
None of them that I know of are against such a demonstration even if it doesn't 
meet true scientific standards.

They say they can do this wonderful thing, show us as artists who want to 
appreciate its glory.  

Is that a better fit? 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not sure it 
 makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are provable 
 scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge science and 
 yoga as necessary to bring his message to the West initially, now that so 
 many teachers and methods are here, it has become more of a spiritual 
 cafeteria in terms of what each of us decides benefits us as a practice, vs. 
 which technique can be proved rigorously by science. 
 
 I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already been 
 exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions and although I got a lot 
 out of each one, the practical and solitary nature of the TM practice 
 eventually won out. I am not arguing for TM, but rather to show that the 
 science is nice to have but not a must have when deciding which technique to 
 adopt as a regular practice.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  And with this announcement we enter the realm of the testable. Let's break 
  it down:
  
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge 
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
  
  Actually sidhis themselves included many testable behaviors. But that 
  didn't really pan out too well did it?  No one was able to produce 
  something specific that would prove the theory.  It could have happened, 
  Maharishi predicted it would happen, but it did not happen.
  
  So they changed the claim to something they could paint a circle around and 
  claim victory, the panacea snake oil of generalized non-directed surge (I 
  think I saw that flick when it came out on VHS, It stars Ginger Lynn who 
  claimed to have a detachable jaw and in the third scene with the pizza 
  delivery guy made me a believer.  Now that's what you call a convincing 
  demo of a claim!) 
  
  So they could have given a demo that would have changed the world forever 
  with the sidhis.  The finding lost objects one that Larry Domash bragged 
  about doing would have been enough, and we would have given Jonathan 
  Shear's claim of understanding a squirrel a polite pass.  But they didn't, 
  which in the rest of the world is known as, they couldn't. They got off the 
  hook by changing the claim to be so broad that, hey look a squirrel 
  worked for movement believers.  It did not impress the world at large who 
  pretty much unanimously responded to all these claims with Yeah right, hey 
  do you want to go grab a coffee?
  
  But happy days are here again folks, if the movement will step up they have 
  a chance once again to redeem themselves and convert the world.  All that 
  is needed is for them to produce exactly what they are claiming to.  And 
  before you are too quick to say oh that Curtis is being a butthole again 
  think about this for a minute.  This is a chance for them to prove to the 
  world that their claims are true, so why are they not doing it in a form 
  that the rest of us could appreciate?  The fulfillment of the world plan is 
  right there in 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they discount 
scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set scientific 
validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it remains an 
ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific evidence out 
there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down with those 
attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.

Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind of 
 claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much sense 
 through the perspective in this sentence:
 
 practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
 
 You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
 
 If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
 this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good faith 
 could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need for 
 demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is about 
 the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly aw shucks 
 ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
 
 You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
 believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept that 
 for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the message go 
 out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it wasn't the science 
 rap that drew you in, it was the thing that made it rise above other 
 spiritual practices in popularity.
 
 So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why 
 isn't this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this 
 knowledge and preserve Maharishi's teaching.  
 
 So on an individual level, sure I agree.  But this is a claim about the world 
 and it will involve cash from donors right?  
 
 There are plenty of ways that we use to distinguish fact from fantasy in 
 life.  None of them that I know of are against such a demonstration even if 
 it doesn't meet true scientific standards.
 
 They say they can do this wonderful thing, show us as artists who want to 
 appreciate its glory.  
 
 Is that a better fit? 
 
Couldn't hurt. The TMO has always tried to have this rigidly scientific 
demeanor to justify its programs





 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not sure 
  it makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are provable 
  scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge science and 
  yoga as necessary to bring his message to the West initially, now that so 
  many teachers and methods are here, it has become more of a spiritual 
  cafeteria in terms of what each of us decides benefits us as a practice, 
  vs. which technique can be proved rigorously by science. 
  
  I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already 
  been exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions and although I got 
  a lot out of each one, the practical and solitary nature of the TM practice 
  eventually won out. I am not arguing for TM, but rather to show that the 
  science is nice to have but not a must have when deciding which technique 
  to adopt as a regular practice.
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   And with this announcement we enter the realm of the testable. Let's 
   break it down:
   
While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed 
surge of positivity for the general well-being of society, 
   
   Actually sidhis themselves included many testable behaviors. But that 
   didn't really pan out too well did it?  No one was able to produce 
   something specific that would prove the theory.  It could have happened, 
   Maharishi predicted it would happen, but it did not happen.
   
   So they changed the claim to something they could paint a circle around 
   and claim victory, the panacea snake oil of generalized non-directed 
   surge (I think I saw that flick when it came out on VHS, It stars Ginger 
   Lynn who claimed to have a detachable jaw and in the third scene with the 
   pizza delivery guy made me a believer.  Now that's what you call a 
   convincing demo of a claim!) 
   
   So they could have given a demo that would have changed the world forever 
   with the sidhis.  The finding lost objects one that Larry Domash bragged 
   about doing would have been enough, and we would have given Jonathan 
   Shear's claim of understanding a squirrel a polite pass.  But they 
   didn't, which in the rest of the world is known as, they couldn't. They 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

I thought your confidence in TM was in the practical results you have received 
not devotion.  You have been the poster child here for not just believing in TM 
but for people to practice it long enough that they get the results you have, 
right?

So it is not hoisting the movement on its own petard of scientific marketing 
hype to want them to demonstrate yagyas to whatever practical level is the 
correlate of personal benefits of TM is it? 

But if you are saying that people who already believe in TM results will just 
take this at face value as fact and never need more than John Hegelin waving a 
paper around saying it has been proven or that the Vedic tradition claims it is 
true, and they are the most likely donors...

then we agree.

The rest of the world is really not invited to this party.  But it could be and 
why it isn't should be a concern for anyone who deeply believes that this 
knowledge needs to spread beyond a few thousand people who still have earth 
shoes somewhere in the back of their closets.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they 
 discount scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set 
 scientific validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it 
 remains an ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific 
 evidence out there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down 
 with those attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.
 
 Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
 bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind 
  of claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much 
  sense through the perspective in this sentence:
  
  practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
  
  You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
  
  If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
  this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good faith 
  could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need for 
  demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is about 
  the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly aw 
  shucks ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
  
  You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
  believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept that 
  for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the message go 
  out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it wasn't the 
  science rap that drew you in, it was the thing that made it rise above 
  other spiritual practices in popularity.
  
  So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why 
  isn't this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this 
  knowledge and preserve Maharishi's teaching.  
  
  So on an individual level, sure I agree.  But this is a claim about the 
  world and it will involve cash from donors right?  
  
  There are plenty of ways that we use to distinguish fact from fantasy in 
  life.  None of them that I know of are against such a demonstration even if 
  it doesn't meet true scientific standards.
  
  They say they can do this wonderful thing, show us as artists who want to 
  appreciate its glory.  
  
  Is that a better fit? 
  
 Couldn't hurt. The TMO has always tried to have this rigidly scientific 
 demeanor to justify its programs
 
 
 
 
 
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
   Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not 
   sure it makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are 
   provable scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge 
   science and yoga as necessary to bring his message to the West initially, 
   now that so many teachers and methods are here, it has become more of a 
   spiritual cafeteria in terms of what each of us decides benefits us as a 
   practice, vs. which technique can be proved rigorously by science. 
   
   I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already 
   been exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions and although I 
   got a lot out of each one, the practical and solitary nature of the TM 
   practice eventually won out. I am not arguing for TM, but rather to show 
   that the science is nice to have but not a must have when deciding which 
   technique to adopt as a regular practice.
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
And with this announcement we enter the realm of the testable. Let's 
break it down:

 While Yogic Flying 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Xenophaneros Anartaxius]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind of 
 claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much sense 
 through the perspective in this sentence:
 
 practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
 
 You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
 
 If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
 this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good faith 
 could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need for 
 demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is about 
 the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly aw shucks 
 ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
 
 You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
 believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept that 
 for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the message go 
 out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it wasn't the science 
 rap that drew you in, it was the thing that made it rise above other 
 spiritual practices in popularity.
 
 So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why 
 isn't this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this 
 knowledge and preserve Maharishi's teaching.  
 
 So on an individual level, sure I agree.  But this is a claim about the world 
 and it will involve cash from donors right?  
 
 There are plenty of ways that we use to distinguish fact from fantasy in 
 life.  None of them that I know of are against such a demonstration even if 
 it doesn't meet true scientific standards.
 
 They say they can do this wonderful thing, show us as artists who want to 
 appreciate its glory.  
 
 Is that a better fit? 

There have been a number of large well-designed studies recently, such as the 
Templeton study, of 'intercessionary prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. 
These studies failed to show any effect. Psychic, long-distance phenomena have 
been studied for years without making a dent in the scientific community as the 
results have never been clear cut, and studies have been found to contain 
serious flaws which became evident when replication attempts failed, such as 
the Targ-Puthoff long distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this 
study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of Being and Art of 
Living as an established fact, but in fact, the result was disproved.

The TMO is only interested in favourable positive results, and this is not the 
proper attitude when conducting a scientific study where one is trying to find 
a way to conclusively show that there is a difference between the hypothesised 
effect and the null hypothesis. In a scientific study it does not matter on a 
knowledge basis whether the result agrees or disagrees with you. It might 
affect a career if a study fails, but that is not what is being sought.

Finding out stuff like this can be easy or difficult. It would be fairly easy 
to design a study investigating how much a guitar has to be out of tune such 
that everyone can recognise that it is in fact out of tune. Finding out if the 
Higgs boson exists is much more difficult. Thousand of researchers and 
engineers are required just to isolate a small aspect of the search as to 
whether it exists at a specfic energy level.

Finding out if yagyas work would be difficult but not imposssible as similar 
good quality experiments with prayer have already been done. I would not expect 
the movement to conduct such an experiment, and even if it did, if the result 
was negative, I doubt it would ever be announced for in a population where 
belief trumps reality, this is what happens.

I have had yagyas performed on my behalf, and I have never noticed anything as 
a result, so I am naturally sceptical of them. Yagyas seem to be satisfactory 
as a wallet vacuum, but their reality is very tenuous in my mind. they remind 
me of Papal indulgences.

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not sure 
  it makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are provable 
  scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge science and 
  yoga as necessary to bring his message to the West initially, now that so 
  many teachers and methods are here, it has become more of a spiritual 
  cafeteria in terms of what each of us decides benefits us as a practice, 
  vs. which technique can be proved rigorously by science. 
  
  I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already 
  been exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions and although I got 
  a lot out of each one, the practical and solitary nature of the TM practice 
  eventually won out. I am not arguing 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!

Each would teach the same basic technique, same puja, only the atmosphere would 
be quite different for each sect at initiation time:

Rationalist TM:
The TM Center is in an uber modern building in the city, long thin windows, 
high ceilings, industrial chic, painted a soft grey outside. You knock at the 
door and are instructed by speaker: Jai Guru Dev. Please enter your code. You 
check your smartphone, find the file, hold the graphic up to the reader and the 
door clicks open. 

Inside it is spacious, and spare, a faint smell of sandalwood and floor wax. 
You take a seat on the micro-suede and chrome Scandinavian couch. 

There is a low black granite coffee table in front of you, TMO publications 
arranged precisely to the right, with two small aluminum signs like name plates 
to the left, one labeled Fruit and the other, Flowers, both in a san serif 
font. You place your offerings in the appropriate areas on the table, and sit 
back to wait. You check you watch and see that you are actually right on time.

Just then a door opens. You look left and see the teachers, Gunter and Lisa, 
both blond, tall, German, impeccably groomed, wearing single piece grey 
jumpsuits, walking towards you. They are both smiling when they stop in front 
of you (did Gunter click his heels together just then?).
 
Jai Guru Dev!! They say in unison...

Bhakti TM:

The TM Center resides in a leafy tree filled neighborhood of big lawns and 
comfortable houses, with plenty of parking. You park and begin walking up the 
walkway towards a two story white cottage with red shutters. There is a sign 
near the door, Namaste! Come On In!. You step inside the brightly lit foyer 
and instantly the aroma of fresh chocolate chip cookies hits your nostrils. You 
start to get hungry until the strong scent of rose incense also becomes 
apparent, almost overpowering.

Someone is playing Layla and singing to it sporadically somewhere in the back 
of the house. You look into the living room which has colored sheer curtains at 
the windows and some brightly covered throws on the overstuffed country 
furniture. Someone has put up two pictures on the wall, one is Maharishi and 
next to him Jimi Hendrix.

Dude!

The voice comes from around the corner. You walk through the doorway, over to a 
middle aged guy, trying for a ponytail with what is left, wearing overalls and 
a grateful dead t-shirt.

Name's Krishna Patterson, and you are here to learn TM? Would you like a 
cookie? Just baked! I've had six! 
You begin to take one while at the same time noticing that Krishna is really 
buzzing from his sugar high. Oh and here's `teach'!. A short woman in a sari 
and a garland of flowers appears. 

Hi, I am Saraswati Rutkowski, glad to meet you! Let's get started!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they 
 discount scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set 
 scientific validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it 
 remains an ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific 
 evidence out there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down 
 with those attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.
 
 Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
 bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind 
  of claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much 
  sense through the perspective in this sentence:
  
  practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
  
  You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
  
  If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
  this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good faith 
  could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need for 
  demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is about 
  the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly aw 
  shucks ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
  
  You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
  believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept that 
  for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the message go 
  out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it wasn't the 
  science rap that drew you in, it was the thing that made it rise above 
  other spiritual practices in popularity.
  
  So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why 
  isn't this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this 
  knowledge and preserve Maharishi's 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 I thought your confidence in TM was in the practical results you have 
 received not devotion.  You have been the poster child here for not just 
 believing in TM but for people to practice it long enough that they get the 
 results you have, right?

**I think it can be a useful technique. That's as far as I am going.
 
 So it is not hoisting the movement on its own petard of scientific marketing 
 hype to want them to demonstrate yagyas to whatever practical level is the 
 correlate of personal benefits of TM is it?

**Absolutely a valid exercise! I hope you aren't assuming I am sticking up for 
the TMO right now... 
 
 But if you are saying that people who already believe in TM results will just 
 take this at face value as fact and never need more than John Hegelin waving 
 a paper around saying it has been proven or that the Vedic tradition claims 
 it is true, and they are the most likely donors...
 
 then we agree.
 
 The rest of the world is really not invited to this party.  But it could be 
 and why it isn't should be a concern for anyone who deeply believes that this 
 knowledge needs to spread beyond a few thousand people who still have earth 
 shoes somewhere in the back of their closets.

**I'm not willing to take out a should on this one. The TMO never has been a 
marketing powerhouse. What publicity they get seems mostly due to celebrities.
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they 
  discount scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set 
  scientific validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it 
  remains an ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific 
  evidence out there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down 
  with those attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.
  
  Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
  bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind 
   of claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much 
   sense through the perspective in this sentence:
   
   practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
   
   You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
   
   If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
   this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good 
   faith could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need 
   for demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is 
   about the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly 
   aw shucks ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
   
   You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
   believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept 
   that for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the 
   message go out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it 
   wasn't the science rap that drew you in, it was the thing that made it 
   rise above other spiritual practices in popularity.
   
   So I get that you don't find this necessary, what I am challenging is why 
   isn't this a priority in an organization whose purpose is to spread this 
   knowledge and preserve Maharishi's teaching.  
   
   So on an individual level, sure I agree.  But this is a claim about the 
   world and it will involve cash from donors right?  
   
   There are plenty of ways that we use to distinguish fact from fantasy in 
   life.  None of them that I know of are against such a demonstration even 
   if it doesn't meet true scientific standards.
   
   They say they can do this wonderful thing, show us as artists who want to 
   appreciate its glory.  
   
   Is that a better fit? 
   
  Couldn't hurt. The TMO has always tried to have this rigidly scientific 
  demeanor to justify its programs
  
  
  
  
  
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
   
Although your arguments for scientific validation are valid, I am not 
sure it makes a lot of difference whether the sutras and yagyas are 
provable scientifically. While I can see Maharishi's attempts to bridge 
science and yoga as necessary to bring his message to the West 
initially, now that so many teachers and methods are here, it has 
become more of a spiritual cafeteria in terms of what each of us 
decides benefits us as a practice, vs. which technique can be proved 
rigorously by science. 

I remember my starting TM had nothing to do with science. I had already 
been exposed to Hindu, Buddhist and Christian religions 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

I thought your confidence in TM was in the practical results you have received 
not devotion.  You have been the poster child here for not just believing in TM 
but for people to practice it long enough that they get the results you have, 
right?

Hi Curtis, Just to clarify, it is hard for me to advocate anything about TM, 
since I stopped the practice nearly a year ago. Stopping felt just as natural 
as starting did. 

Yes, I think it is useful. I don't know anyone other than those here on FFL who 
does TM. None of my friends, family, or coworkers practice it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  I thought your confidence in TM was in the practical results you have 
  received not devotion.  You have been the poster child here for not just 
  believing in TM but for people to practice it long enough that they get the 
  results you have, right?
 
 **I think it can be a useful technique. That's as far as I am going.

 **Absolutely a valid exercise! I hope you aren't assuming I am sticking up 
 for the TMO right now... 

 
 **I'm not willing to take out a should on this one. The TMO never has been 
 a marketing powerhouse. What publicity they get seems mostly due to 
 celebrities.


When tens of thousands of children learn TM in South American through DLF it's 
hardly because David Lynch is a celebrity. They probably never even heard of 
him before starting the practise.
Do see the trailer, very moving.

http://dlf.tv/2010/disposable-ones/

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote:

 On 01/15/2012 04:58 AM, Buck wrote:
  All area Satsangs:
  While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
  of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
  very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
  neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
 
 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
 
  Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
  ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
  application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
  produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
  Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
  Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
  program,
  may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
  great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
  race.
 
  Jai Guru Dev
 
 So what would the actual results of the a national yagya be?   It 
 should result in reducing the rakshasa big corporations to extinction 
 and returning economic equality to the people of the USA.  Of course you 
 don't actually need a yagya to do that, just a revolution.  OTOH, I'm 
 noting that may not even be needed as the rakshasa big corporations are 
 beginning to collapse under their own weight and bad karma.
 
 Remember that a bunch of yogic flyers went to Iran back in the late 
 1970s and we know what happened there.


Yes I was there and know exactly what happened. 
Nothing. Nada. No bloodshed, even though all the embassies had closed down and 
all personell had left in fear of a bloody revolution. The whole world waited 
for something nasty and bloody. 
Instead the Shah quietly slipped out of Iran and later died of cancer. Much 
like Marcos did when we were in Manilla, slipping quietly out, later dying of 
cancer.

Big success for the TMO, but difficult to understand for souls dictated by 
their intelligence, they simply do not understand the connection. 
Perhaps Maharishi was right, perhaps it will take 400 years before people 
understand what he did.


  Did the yogic flying troupe spur 
 it on?

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

 Big success for the TMO, but difficult to understand for souls dictated by 
 their intelligence, they simply do not understand the connection. 

I couldn't agree more, intelligence is the biggest block to buying into the 
movement's claims.  







 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
 
  On 01/15/2012 04:58 AM, Buck wrote:
   All area Satsangs:
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
  
  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
   race.
  
   Jai Guru Dev
  
  So what would the actual results of the a national yagya be?   It 
  should result in reducing the rakshasa big corporations to extinction 
  and returning economic equality to the people of the USA.  Of course you 
  don't actually need a yagya to do that, just a revolution.  OTOH, I'm 
  noting that may not even be needed as the rakshasa big corporations are 
  beginning to collapse under their own weight and bad karma.
  
  Remember that a bunch of yogic flyers went to Iran back in the late 
  1970s and we know what happened there.
 
 
 Yes I was there and know exactly what happened. 
 Nothing. Nada. No bloodshed, even though all the embassies had closed down 
 and all personell had left in fear of a bloody revolution. The whole world 
 waited for something nasty and bloody. 
 Instead the Shah quietly slipped out of Iran and later died of cancer. Much 
 like Marcos did when we were in Manilla, slipping quietly out, later dying of 
 cancer.
 
 Big success for the TMO, but difficult to understand for souls dictated by 
 their intelligence, they simply do not understand the connection. 
 Perhaps Maharishi was right, perhaps it will take 400 years before people 
 understand what he did.
 
 
   Did the yogic flying troupe spur 
  it on?
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Bhairitu]

On 01/15/2012 11:02 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@...  wrote:
 On 01/15/2012 04:58 AM, Buck wrote:
 All area Satsangs:
 While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
 of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
 very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
 neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.

 [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]

 Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
 ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
 application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
 produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
 Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
 Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
 program,
 may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
 great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
 race.

 Jai Guru Dev
 So what would the actual results of the a national yagya be?   It
 should result in reducing the rakshasa big corporations to extinction
 and returning economic equality to the people of the USA.  Of course you
 don't actually need a yagya to do that, just a revolution.  OTOH, I'm
 noting that may not even be needed as the rakshasa big corporations are
 beginning to collapse under their own weight and bad karma.

 Remember that a bunch of yogic flyers went to Iran back in the late
 1970s and we know what happened there.

 Yes I was there and know exactly what happened.
 Nothing. Nada. No bloodshed, even though all the embassies had closed down 
 and all personell had left in fear of a bloody revolution. The whole world 
 waited for something nasty and bloody.
 Instead the Shah quietly slipped out of Iran and later died of cancer. Much 
 like Marcos did when we were in Manilla, slipping quietly out, later dying of 
 cancer.

And this wouldn't have happened anyway with out the butt bouncers?  
After there was a student revolution going on that had been fomenting 
ever since the US installed the Shah as a puppet leader.

Same with the Philippines.  A little knowledge of world history goes a 
long way.

But keep drinking the kool-aid and add a little bourbon to it so it goes 
down easier. :-D

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Thank you!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
 
  On 01/15/2012 04:58 AM, Buck wrote:
   All area Satsangs:
   While Yogic Flying produces a powerful, generalized, non-directed surge
   of positivity for the general well-being of society, Yagyas create a
   very focused, concentrated influence of positivity designed to
   neutralize specific threats. Like the threats that are looming today.
  
  [LAUNCHING: THE NEW NATIONAL YAGYA PROGRAM]
  
   Maharishi has designed the most powerful system of Yagya the world has
   ever seen. The Maharishi National YagyaSM program is a massive
   application of Yagya on a national scale, specifically engineered to
   produce the largest possible impact on an entire nation.
   Focus for 2012: Maharishi Yagyas® for the Nation
   Join us in this great endeavor, please.Let us launch this powerful new
   program,
   may abundant good fortune smile on America, and may Maharishi's
   great legacy of peace and enlightenment permanently bless the human
   race.
  
   Jai Guru Dev
  
  So what would the actual results of the a national yagya be?   It 
  should result in reducing the rakshasa big corporations to extinction 
  and returning economic equality to the people of the USA.  Of course you 
  don't actually need a yagya to do that, just a revolution.  OTOH, I'm 
  noting that may not even be needed as the rakshasa big corporations are 
  beginning to collapse under their own weight and bad karma.
  
  Remember that a bunch of yogic flyers went to Iran back in the late 
  1970s and we know what happened there.
 
 
 Yes I was there and know exactly what happened. 
 Nothing. Nada. No bloodshed, even though all the embassies had closed down 
 and all personell had left in fear of a bloody revolution. The whole world 
 waited for something nasty and bloody. 
 Instead the Shah quietly slipped out of Iran and later died of cancer. Much 
 like Marcos did when we were in Manilla, slipping quietly out, later dying of 
 cancer.
 
 Big success for the TMO, but difficult to understand for souls dictated by 
 their intelligence, they simply do not understand the connection. 
 Perhaps Maharishi was right, perhaps it will take 400 years before people 
 understand what he did.
 
 
   Did the yogic flying troupe spur 
  it on?
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Big success for the TMO, but difficult to understand for souls
  dictated by their intelligence, they simply do not understand
  the connection. 
 
 I couldn't agree more, intelligence is the biggest block to
 buying into the movement's claims.  


Oh suh-nap!

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

*Very* funny. Well done.

Someone has put up two pictures on the wall, one is Maharishi
and next to him Jimi Hendrix.

LOL. Excellent.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:

 Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
 bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!
 
 Each would teach the same basic technique, same puja, only the atmosphere 
 would be quite different for each sect at initiation time:
 
 Rationalist TM:
 The TM Center is in an uber modern building in the city, long thin windows, 
 high ceilings, industrial chic, painted a soft grey outside. You knock at the 
 door and are instructed by speaker: Jai Guru Dev. Please enter your code. 
 You check your smartphone, find the file, hold the graphic up to the reader 
 and the door clicks open. 
 
 Inside it is spacious, and spare, a faint smell of sandalwood and floor wax. 
 You take a seat on the micro-suede and chrome Scandinavian couch. 
 
 There is a low black granite coffee table in front of you, TMO publications 
 arranged precisely to the right, with two small aluminum signs like name 
 plates to the left, one labeled Fruit and the other, Flowers, both in a 
 san serif font. You place your offerings in the appropriate areas on the 
 table, and sit back to wait. You check you watch and see that you are 
 actually right on time.
 
 Just then a door opens. You look left and see the teachers, Gunter and Lisa, 
 both blond, tall, German, impeccably groomed, wearing single piece grey 
 jumpsuits, walking towards you. They are both smiling when they stop in front 
 of you (did Gunter click his heels together just then?).
  
 Jai Guru Dev!! They say in unison...
 
 Bhakti TM:
 
 The TM Center resides in a leafy tree filled neighborhood of big lawns and 
 comfortable houses, with plenty of parking. You park and begin walking up the 
 walkway towards a two story white cottage with red shutters. There is a sign 
 near the door, Namaste! Come On In!. You step inside the brightly lit foyer 
 and instantly the aroma of fresh chocolate chip cookies hits your nostrils. 
 You start to get hungry until the strong scent of rose incense also becomes 
 apparent, almost overpowering.
 
 Someone is playing Layla and singing to it sporadically somewhere in the 
 back of the house. You look into the living room which has colored sheer 
 curtains at the windows and some brightly covered throws on the overstuffed 
 country furniture. Someone has put up two pictures on the wall, one is 
 Maharishi and next to him Jimi Hendrix.
 
 Dude!
 
 The voice comes from around the corner. You walk through the doorway, over to 
 a middle aged guy, trying for a ponytail with what is left, wearing overalls 
 and a grateful dead t-shirt.
 
 Name's Krishna Patterson, and you are here to learn TM? Would you like a 
 cookie? Just baked! I've had six! 
 You begin to take one while at the same time noticing that Krishna is 
 really buzzing from his sugar high. Oh and here's `teach'!. A short woman 
 in a sari and a garland of flowers appears. 
 
 Hi, I am Saraswati Rutkowski, glad to meet you! Let's get started!
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they 
  discount scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set 
  scientific validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it 
  remains an ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific 
  evidence out there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down 
  with those attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.
  
  Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
  bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this kind 
   of claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just as much 
   sense through the perspective in this sentence:
   
   practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.
   
   You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.
   
   If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
   this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good 
   faith could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the need 
   for demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, it is 
   about the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a strictly 
   aw shucks ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.
   
   You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
   believers.  But since this is in principle testable, even if we accept 
   that for people who already believe it is not necessary,wouldn't the 
   message go out to more people just as it did for TM?  Even though it 
   wasn't the science 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
anartaxius@... wrote:

snip
 There have been a number of large well-designed studies
 recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
 prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
 to show any effect.

Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
several differences that could render such extraplation
pretty weak.

 Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
 without making a dent in the scientific community as the
 results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
 found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
 replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
 distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
 study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
 Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
 the result was disproved.

Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?

Do you have a cite for this?

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

Ha-ha! It was fun!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 *Very* funny. Well done.
 
 Someone has put up two pictures on the wall, one is Maharishi
 and next to him Jimi Hendrix.
 
 LOL. Excellent.
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
 
  Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and the 
  bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!
  
  Each would teach the same basic technique, same puja, only the atmosphere 
  would be quite different for each sect at initiation time:
  
  Rationalist TM:
  The TM Center is in an uber modern building in the city, long thin windows, 
  high ceilings, industrial chic, painted a soft grey outside. You knock at 
  the door and are instructed by speaker: Jai Guru Dev. Please enter your 
  code. You check your smartphone, find the file, hold the graphic up to the 
  reader and the door clicks open. 
  
  Inside it is spacious, and spare, a faint smell of sandalwood and floor 
  wax. You take a seat on the micro-suede and chrome Scandinavian couch. 
  
  There is a low black granite coffee table in front of you, TMO publications 
  arranged precisely to the right, with two small aluminum signs like name 
  plates to the left, one labeled Fruit and the other, Flowers, both in a 
  san serif font. You place your offerings in the appropriate areas on the 
  table, and sit back to wait. You check you watch and see that you are 
  actually right on time.
  
  Just then a door opens. You look left and see the teachers, Gunter and 
  Lisa, both blond, tall, German, impeccably groomed, wearing single piece 
  grey jumpsuits, walking towards you. They are both smiling when they stop 
  in front of you (did Gunter click his heels together just then?).
   
  Jai Guru Dev!! They say in unison...
  
  Bhakti TM:
  
  The TM Center resides in a leafy tree filled neighborhood of big lawns and 
  comfortable houses, with plenty of parking. You park and begin walking up 
  the walkway towards a two story white cottage with red shutters. There is a 
  sign near the door, Namaste! Come On In!. You step inside the brightly 
  lit foyer and instantly the aroma of fresh chocolate chip cookies hits your 
  nostrils. You start to get hungry until the strong scent of rose incense 
  also becomes apparent, almost overpowering.
  
  Someone is playing Layla and singing to it sporadically somewhere in the 
  back of the house. You look into the living room which has colored sheer 
  curtains at the windows and some brightly covered throws on the overstuffed 
  country furniture. Someone has put up two pictures on the wall, one is 
  Maharishi and next to him Jimi Hendrix.
  
  Dude!
  
  The voice comes from around the corner. You walk through the doorway, over 
  to a middle aged guy, trying for a ponytail with what is left, wearing 
  overalls and a grateful dead t-shirt.
  
  Name's Krishna Patterson, and you are here to learn TM? Would you like a 
  cookie? Just baked! I've had six! 
  You begin to take one while at the same time noticing that Krishna is 
  really buzzing from his sugar high. Oh and here's `teach'!. A short woman 
  in a sari and a garland of flowers appears. 
  
  Hi, I am Saraswati Rutkowski, glad to meet you! Let's get started!
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@ wrote:
  
   Yeah, I can see the marketing problem it presents for the TMO if they 
   discount scientific or demonstrable results. Since the TMO has always set 
   scientific validity as a key objective, wrt marketing and fundraising, it 
   remains an ongoing tussle for the TMO  between putting enough scientific 
   evidence out there to bolster the claims it makes and getting pinned down 
   with those attempts, especially wrt things like sidhis and yagyas.
   
   Maybe one day the TMO will schism into two sects, the rationalists and 
   the bhaktis, each will seize a Dome, and its on!  
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
Although I did use some scientific terms because I believe that this 
kind of claim could meet such a threshold in principle, it makes just 
as much sense through the perspective in this sentence:

practical and solitary nature of the TM practice eventually won out.

You felt results so you continued, right?  Not scientific but practical.

If we lower the bar below a scientific threshold and say 
this claim could be practically demonstrated so that people of good 
faith could appreciate that it was true  wouldn't we be back to the 
need for demonstration?  This is not a claim that you will feel better, 
it is about the world so we can share in its evidence together, in a 
strictly aw shucks ain't that a sight Ma kind of way.

You are making a case for apriori faith in the system which is fine for 
believers.  But since this is in principle testable, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[futur.musik]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@ 
 wrote:
 
 snip
  There have been a number of large well-designed studies
  recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
  prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
  to show any effect.
 
 Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
 the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
 several differences that could render such extraplation
 pretty weak.
 
  Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
  without making a dent in the scientific community as the
  results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
  found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
  replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
  distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
  study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
  Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
  the result was disproved.
 
 Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
 
 Do you have a cite for this?

Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when it came out and there 
was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff in it. It is all about integrating TM into 
society.

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Need is for National Yagya

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, futur.musik futur.musik@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius 
  anartaxius@ wrote:
  
  snip
   There have been a number of large well-designed studies
   recently, such as the Templeton study, of 'intercessionary
   prayer', which seem a lot like yagyas. These studies failed
   to show any effect.
  
  Is intercessory prayer *enough* like yagyas to extrapolate
  the results of the prayer tests to yagyas? I can think of
  several differences that could render such extraplation
  pretty weak.
  
   Psychic, long-distance phenomena have been studied for years
   without making a dent in the scientific community as the
   results have never been clear cut, and studies have been
   found to contain serious flaws which became evident when 
   replication attempts failed, such as the Targ-Puthoff long
   distance viewing study many years ago. The result of this
   study seems to have been mentioned by MMY in the Science of
   Being and Art of Living as an established fact, but in fact,
   the result was disproved.
  
  Or rather, the results were not confirmed, right?
  
  Do you have a cite for this?
 
 Doesn't sound accurate. I read that book thoroughly when
 it came out and there was no Autobiography of a Yogi stuff
 in it. It is all about integrating TM into society.

Actually I meant a cite for the Targ-Puthoff results being
disproved. I don't know about SBAL mentioning the study.
Don't care about that one way or the other.