Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Sal Sunshine]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Vaj wrote:

Of course no one's asking society to sanitize all traditions and  
strip out references to God or whatever.


That's not the point at all. It might behoove you to look into the  
origins of the USA and look at why the founding fathers, based on  
previous experience, decided to keep church and state emphatically  
separate but allowed religions freedom without threat of persecution.


And the best part of that, of course,
is freedom from religion.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Robert]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:
 
  It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and worships a
  guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of church and
  state--there are a host of other issues such as with charging the
  taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can easily be taught for
  free and the destructive nature of aspects of the TM org, side effects,
  phony and biased research, etc..
 
 Just because I succumbed to voting for Messiah Obama and think that
 last night's press conference was Obama's finest hour so far doesn't
 mean that I've completely sold out.  I continue to believe as I have
 before.  I agree that TM is a religion and I have no problem with it
 being designated as such.  My real problem lies with Judy and others
 who so much want to prove that TM is non-sectarian.  This I just don't
 get.   But then I put my buns and $$ where my mouth is, unlike other
 TM proponents on FFL.

 
So, I see dat, you muss Know what your talkin' 'bout beef-fo ya' Speaks!
Dat Bees Real Nice!
R.g.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the host offers 
grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus on  the meal and not on my 
hosts particular beliefs or traditions. And I don't somehow feel tainted or 
duped. 

Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly taught a 
religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving meal?  Who were the 
pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was God! Run!

Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with actual fruit. And 
I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my meal analogy. But to me, it 
fits quite well. I am getting something quite secular -- a meal -- a useful 
meditation technique -- at the HUGE cost of listening to someone give thanks 
prior to the meal. I don't get the outrage.

I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My Indian 
friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have something in common 
with them and their religion. But I can't be a Hindu in traditional Hinduism. 
White boys not allowed. So why would another white boy or worse white girl -- 
who can never be a hindu, teaching something to another white boy who can never 
be a hindu, somehow make teaching TM a religion. 

And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools give these as 
holidays, aren't they complicit in some great religious conspiracy to dupe our 
poor cloistered youth? These holidays  CLEARLY have religious roots.

No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn. Clearly a violation of church 
and state. Not only that, it has roots in pagan religions! Pagan! As do 
Christmas trees. No more lighting of the Christmas tree on TV at Rokerfella 
square or the White House.

And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually give thanks to 
GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!  Getting duped again by the 
omnipresent religious conspiracy. 

(I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am riffing on. ) 


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 Most of the puja is blatantly religious. For example, the puja  
 contains the traditional shodashopachura pujana -  the puja of 16  
 offering. The puja of 16 offering is common in Hindu worship as a way  
 to receive or connect to a particular God. In this case the God is  
 the Guru, the Guru God or Guru Deva; Guru Dev:
 
 आवाहनं समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 aavaahanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering invocation to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 आसनं समर्पयामि श्रीगुरु  
 चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 aasanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering a seat to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 स्नानं समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 snaanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering a bath to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 वस्त्रं समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 vastraM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering a cloth to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 चंदनं समर्पयामि श्रीगुरु  
 चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 cha.ndanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering sandal paste to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 अक्शतान् समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 akshataan samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering full unbroken rice to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I  
 bow down.
 पुष्पं समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 pushhpaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering a flower to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 धूपं समर्पयामि श्रीगुरु  
 चचरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 dhuupaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering incense to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 दीपं समर्पयामि श्रीगुरु  
 चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 diipaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering light to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 अच्मनियम् समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
 achmaniyam samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
 Offering water to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
 नैवेद्यं समर्पयामि  
 श्रीगुरु 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[do.rflex]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 Most of the puja is blatantly religious. For example, the puja  
 contains the traditional shodashopachura pujana -  the puja of 16  
 offering. The puja of 16 offering is common in Hindu worship as a way  
 to receive or connect to a particular God. In this case the God is  
 the Guru, the Guru God or Guru Deva; Guru Dev:


AVAHANAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering invocation to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

ASANAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering a seat to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

SNANAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering a bath to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

VASTRAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering a cloth to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

CHANDANAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering sandal paste to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

AKSHATAN SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering full unbroken rice to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

PUSHPAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering a flower to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

DHUPAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering incense to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

DEEPAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering light to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

ACHMANIYAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering water to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

NAIVEDYAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH 
Offering fruit to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

ACHMANIYAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH
Offering water to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

TAMBULAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH
Offering betel leaf to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

SHRI PHALAM SAMARPAYAMI SHRI GURU CHARANA KAMALEBHYO NAMAH
Offering coconut to the lotus feet of the blessed Guru, I bow down.

[reposted for clarity - apparently the Sanskrit doesn't post properly]
===

Many properly trained TM teachers can verify from directly perceived experience 
[and have many times to me personally] that indeed this complete Puja invokes 
the presence of Guru Dev [Swami Bramhananda Saraswati]. 

In my teacher training course, Maharishi explained that in essence, the 
initiator 'becomes' Guru Dev when the mantra is imparted from that deep level 
and given to the initiate. It's a very gentle and sublime, but powerful 
experience. For me personally while teaching, it has varied unpredictably in 
intensity. 

Some times while reciting and performing the Puja I have transcended and felt 
that I was losing track of where I was in the recitation - however at the same 
time noticing that the Puja continued flowing like a river as if all by itself.

--Apparently some TM teachers don't seem to have experienced that. I have no 
definitive explanation for that.

As a TM teacher trained by MMY, I have always had serious reservations about 
introducing TM wholesale into public schools claiming it's strictly a 
non-religious relaxation technique. To me personally, it's blatantly dishonest.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Vaj]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:37 AM, grate.swan wrote:

Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the  
host offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus  
on  the meal and not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions.  
And I don't somehow feel tainted or duped.


Only if it is in a public school, in the context we're talking of here.



Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly  
taught a religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving  
meal?  Who were the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was  
God! Run!


I don't celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, I celebrate in  
as an exercise in food materialism.




Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with  
actual fruit. And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my  
meal analogy. But to me, it fits quite well. I am getting something  
quite secular -- a meal -- a useful meditation technique -- at the  
HUGE cost of listening to someone give thanks prior to the meal.  
I don't get the outrage.


It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and  
worships a guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of  
church and state--there are a host of other issues such as with  
charging the taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can  
easily be taught for free and the destructive nature of aspects of  
the TM org, side effects, phony and biased research, etc..  Body  
modification freaks also feel that insertion of needles can induce  
pleasurable trance states. Let's not forget to invite them. And  
voudoun trance rites often involve the sacrificing of small animals  
to the Loa: VM, Voudoun Meditation. Yes, you too can enjoy an  
effortless technique that takes you 'down to the crossroads' without  
ever having to leave your chair.


Perhaps you should look into what the actual goal of Hindu mental  
ishta-devata meditation is, since you don't seem clear on what it  
actually is.


Can you name one common place you would find the Hindu 16-fold offering?



I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My  
Indian friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have  
something in common with them and their religion. But I can't be a  
Hindu in traditional Hinduism. White boys not allowed. So why would  
another white boy or worse white girl -- who can never be a hindu,  
teaching something to another white boy who can never be a hindu,  
somehow make teaching TM a religion.


I know of numerous people who became Hindus--some have even received  
the sacred thread.




And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools  
give these as holidays, aren't they complicit in some great  
religious conspiracy to dupe our poor cloistered youth? These  
holidays  CLEARLY have religious roots.


They're just appealing to the majority of their students I guess, but  
that is an interesting objection. Of course none of their religious  
rites would appear on campus if they are absent.




No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn. Clearly a  
violation of church and state. Not only that, it has roots in pagan  
religions! Pagan! As do Christmas trees. No more lighting of the  
Christmas tree on TV at Rokerfella square or the White House.


Easter eggs to not appear in the Christian bible--unless you happen  
to have a very different bible than I do!




And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually  
give thanks to GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!   
Getting duped again by the omnipresent religious conspiracy.


(I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am  
riffing on. )

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

Another thought on this.

We live in a pluralistic society and laudably multi-culturalism and the 
appreciation of diversity in other culture is increasingly celebrated. Where I 
work, a large company, the daily e-mail newsletter celebrates and explains 
every  major religions and cultural holiday. Hindu, islamic, jewish, ... Thats 
a cool thing IMO.  it does not make my company a religious advocate nor does it 
have some hidden agenda. Its educating us all, and making us sensitive to, 
other cultures. 

In that light, teaching TM in the traditional way, is giving a nod to, and 
adding to the texture of a multicultural society. Its preserving a heritage 
enabling all to see a type of ceremony that they would not normally see. In 
that light, the TMO should be given thanks for not coping out and sanitizing 
the way they teach TM. They teach it in the traditional way. They provide a 
micro museum tour of an ancient culture. I rather like that. That doesn't make 
me Hindu or religious. It reflects that I am multi-cultural and live in a 
diverse society of tolerance and appreciation of all traditions. 

You don't have a true multi-cultural society if you sanitize all traditions and 
strip out references to God or whatever. That would be a sham and a shame. You 
have a multi-cultural society when things with religious roots can be shared 
and appreciated as part of diverse cultures -- not phobiacized. 


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:

 Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the host 
 offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus on  the meal and 
 not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions. And I don't somehow feel 
 tainted or duped. 
 
 Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly taught a 
 religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving meal?  Who were 
 the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was God! Run!
 
 Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with actual fruit. 
 And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my meal analogy. But to me, 
 it fits quite well. I am getting something quite secular -- a meal -- a 
 useful meditation technique -- at the HUGE cost of listening to someone give 
 thanks prior to the meal. I don't get the outrage.
 
 I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My Indian 
 friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have something in common 
 with them and their religion. But I can't be a Hindu in traditional Hinduism. 
 White boys not allowed. So why would another white boy or worse white girl -- 
 who can never be a hindu, teaching something to another white boy who can 
 never be a hindu, somehow make teaching TM a religion. 
 
 And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools give these 
 as holidays, aren't they complicit in some great religious conspiracy to dupe 
 our poor cloistered youth? These holidays  CLEARLY have religious roots.
 
 No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn. Clearly a violation of 
 church and state. Not only that, it has roots in pagan religions! Pagan! As 
 do Christmas trees. No more lighting of the Christmas tree on TV at 
 Rokerfella square or the White House.
 
 And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually give thanks 
 to GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!  Getting duped again by 
 the omnipresent religious conspiracy. 
 
 (I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am riffing on. ) 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  Most of the puja is blatantly religious. For example, the puja  
  contains the traditional shodashopachura pujana -  the puja of 16  
  offering. The puja of 16 offering is common in Hindu worship as a way  
  to receive or connect to a particular God. In this case the God is  
  the Guru, the Guru God or Guru Deva; Guru Dev:
  
  आवाहनं समर्पयामि  
  श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
  aavaahanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
  Offering invocation to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
  आसनं समर्पयामि श्रीगुरु  
  चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
  aasanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
  Offering a seat to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
  स्नानं समर्पयामि  
  श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
  snaanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
  Offering a bath to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
  वस्त्रं समर्पयामि  
  श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
  vastraM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
  Offering a cloth to the lotus feet of the blessed guru, I bow down.
  चंदनं 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Vaj]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, do.rflex wrote:

In my teacher training course, Maharishi explained that in essence,  
the initiator 'becomes' Guru Dev when the mantra is imparted from  
that deep level and given to the initiate. It's a very gentle and  
sublime, but powerful experience. For me personally while teaching,  
it has varied unpredictably in intensity.


Some times while reciting and performing the Puja I have  
transcended and felt that I was losing track of where I was in the  
recitation - however at the same time noticing that the Puja  
continued flowing like a river as if all by itself.


--Apparently some TM teachers don't seem to have experienced that.  
I have no definitive explanation for that.


As a TM teacher trained by MMY, I have always had serious  
reservations about introducing TM wholesale into public schools  
claiming it's strictly a non-religious relaxation technique. To me  
personally, it's blatantly dishonest.



And MMY's explanation is, in fact, a good one. The idea of the 16- 
fold worship is for the worshipper to unite his consciousness with  
the object of the worship--in this case the Guru-God as embodied in  
the discarnate human, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. The level of  
unification can occur at different levels, but the goal is always to  
unite with the god or goddess being invoked. It sounds to me like you  
simply had a very clear and innocent experience of this state.


If I am going to empower some one or some thing with a certain  
enlightenment-energy practice, I always unite, mentally with  
visualization and with mental mantra, with that force. It's this  
assumption of the acquired force that makes the empowerment work and  
flow. The proper identification with the force you're merging with is  
unmistakable once you're used to that presence.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[do.rflex]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:

 Another thought on this.
 
 We live in a pluralistic society and laudably multi-culturalism and the 
 appreciation of diversity in other culture is increasingly celebrated. Where 
 I work, a large company, the daily e-mail newsletter celebrates and explains 
 every  major religions and cultural holiday. Hindu, islamic, jewish, ... 
 Thats a cool thing IMO.  it does not make my company a religious advocate nor 
 does it have some hidden agenda. Its educating us all, and making us 
 sensitive to, other cultures. 



 In that light, teaching TM in the traditional way, is giving a nod to, and 
 adding to the texture of a multicultural society. Its preserving a heritage 
 enabling all to see a type of ceremony that they would not normally see. In 
 that light, the TMO should be given thanks for not coping out and sanitizing 
 the way they teach TM. They teach it in the traditional way. They provide a 
 micro museum tour of an ancient culture. I rather like that. That doesn't 
 make me Hindu or religious. It reflects that I am multi-cultural and live in 
 a diverse society of tolerance and appreciation of all traditions. 
 
 You don't have a true multi-cultural society if you sanitize all 
 traditions and strip out references to God or whatever. 


That's what the TMO has apparently attempted to do in order to get TM accepted 
wholesale into public schools.


 That would be a sham and a shame. You have a multi-cultural society  when 
 things with religious roots can be shared and appreciated as 
 part of diverse cultures -- not phobiacized. 


That appears to be a pitch to teach TM with its full religious implications and 
let it join others in the diverse variety of what's available. But at the same 
time you can't promote a specific traditional religious teaching in a public 
school.


[snip to end]

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Vaj]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:07 AM, grate.swan wrote:


Another thought on this.

We live in a pluralistic society and laudably multi-culturalism and  
the appreciation of diversity in other culture is increasingly  
celebrated. Where I work, a large company, the daily e-mail  
newsletter celebrates and explains every  major religions and  
cultural holiday. Hindu, islamic, jewish, ... Thats a cool thing  
IMO.  it does not make my company a religious advocate nor does it  
have some hidden agenda. Its educating us all, and making us  
sensitive to, other cultures.


Not an appropriate comparison. IF your place of employ was using  
company money to pay for people to be initiated into and to practice  
TM on work property, then it might be an appropriate comparison.




In that light, teaching TM in the traditional way, is giving a nod  
to, and adding to the texture of a multicultural society. Its  
preserving a heritage enabling all to see a type of ceremony that  
they would not normally see. In that light, the TMO should be given  
thanks for not coping out and sanitizing the way they teach TM.  
They teach it in the traditional way. They provide a micro museum  
tour of an ancient culture. I rather like that. That doesn't make  
me Hindu or religious. It reflects that I am multi-cultural and  
live in a diverse society of tolerance and appreciation of all  
traditions.


Nonetheless, if you are mentally reciting the inner name of a Hindu  
devata, Hindu scriptures do consider this a form of worship, a  
manasika or mental form of worship. Nice try.




You don't have a true multi-cultural society if you sanitize all  
traditions and strip out references to God or whatever. That would  
be a sham and a shame. You have a multi-cultural society when  
things with religious roots can be shared and appreciated as part  
of diverse cultures -- not phobiacized.


Of course no one's asking society to sanitize all traditions and  
strip out references to God or whatever.


That's not the point at all. It might behoove you to look into the  
origins of the USA and look at why the founding fathers, based on  
previous experience, decided to keep church and state emphatically  
separate but allowed religions freedom without threat of persecution.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:37 AM, grate.swan wrote:
 
  Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the  
  host offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus  
  on  the meal and not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions.  
  And I don't somehow feel tainted or duped.
 
 Only if it is in a public school, in the context we're talking of here.
 
 
  Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly  
  taught a religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving  
  meal?  Who were the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was  
  God! Run!
 
 I don't celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, I celebrate in  
 as an exercise in food materialism.



And they why do you deny the same freedom to others to take what they want from 
religious traditions and use it in  a secular way?

Somehow you can use a holiday based on Thanksgiving  to God an not get tainted 
by anything religious. In fact you use it for the antithesis of religion -- 
gluttony. Yet you don't want to ban thanksgiving from schools. 

So why not provide the same freedom to students who may want to use meditation 
techniques that stem from a religious tradition but they use it in totally non 
religious ways?

I don't see the distinction. Except that one option suits you. 





 
 
  Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with  
  actual fruit. And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my  
  meal analogy. But to me, it fits quite well. I am getting something  
  quite secular -- a meal -- a useful meditation technique -- at the  
  HUGE cost of listening to someone give thanks prior to the meal.  
  I don't get the outrage.
 
 It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and  
 worships a guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of  
 church and state--there are a host of other issues such as with  
 charging the taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can  
 easily be taught for free and the destructive nature of aspects of  
 the TM org, side effects, phony and biased research, etc..  Body  
 modification freaks also feel that insertion of needles can induce  
 pleasurable trance states. Let's not forget to invite them. And  
 voudoun trance rites often involve the sacrificing of small animals  
 to the Loa: VM, Voudoun Meditation. Yes, you too can enjoy an  
 effortless technique that takes you 'down to the crossroads' without  
 ever having to leave your chair.
 
 Perhaps you should look into what the actual goal of Hindu mental  
 ishta-devata meditation is, since you don't seem clear on what it  
 actually is.
 
 Can you name one common place you would find the Hindu 16-fold offering?
 
 
  I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My  
  Indian friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have  
  something in common with them and their religion. But I can't be a  
  Hindu in traditional Hinduism. White boys not allowed. So why would  
  another white boy or worse white girl -- who can never be a hindu,  
  teaching something to another white boy who can never be a hindu,  
  somehow make teaching TM a religion.
 
 I know of numerous people who became Hindus--some have even received  
 the sacred thread.
 
 
  And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools  
  give these as holidays, aren't they complicit in some great  
  religious conspiracy to dupe our poor cloistered youth? These  
  holidays  CLEARLY have religious roots.
 
 They're just appealing to the majority of their students I guess, but  
 that is an interesting objection. Of course none of their religious  
 rites would appear on campus if they are absent.
 
 
  No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn. Clearly a  
  violation of church and state. Not only that, it has roots in pagan  
  religions! Pagan! As do Christmas trees. No more lighting of the  
  Christmas tree on TV at Rokerfella square or the White House.
 
 Easter eggs to not appear in the Christian bible--unless you happen  
 to have a very different bible than I do!
 
 
  And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually  
  give thanks to GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!   
  Getting duped again by the omnipresent religious conspiracy.
 
  (I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am  
  riffing on. )

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[I am the eternal]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:37 AM, grate.swan no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the host 
 offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus on  the meal and 
 not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions. And I don't somehow feel 
 tainted or duped.

For the past several years I've offered in FF respite from Annapura in
a lavish Christmas feast with all the fixings:  organic, non-organic,
vegan, turkey, ham, you name it.  I aim for cultural and religious
diversity.  There is not only no resentment when it comes time for
grace, but everyone is very eager to offer his particular prayer to
the group.  This Christmas the prayer token went around twice and the
love was so thick you could cut it with a machete.   But then I hone
in one the religion of others.

OTOH in the late 80's I was forced to listen to the very Christian
music I'm listening to right now and I was resentful.  But the music
was being pushed on me and others as embrace this or burn in Hell.
This was in Colorado Springs where there are a lot of TBs who traded
their addiction to drugs with an addiction to Jesus.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:

 Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the host 
 offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus on  the meal and 
 not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions. And I don't somehow feel 
 tainted or duped. 

This has nothing to do with the schools question.  My answer is no I don't feel 
badly unless my host is a shitty cook.  I close my eyes and think of my 
hostesses rack or if that is not an option, I find something of interest from 
my well stocked mental masturbatory Rolodex.
 
 Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly taught a 
 religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving meal?  Who were 
 the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was God! Run!

No it is not a religious holiday.  I think of it as giving thanks to the 
relatives who have gathered for another year. The Indians at the first one were 
being thankful that their new guests would never betray their trust...and the 
Pilgrims were thankful that the Indian's wouldn't catch on till the next 
shipment of gunpowder comes.

 
 Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with actual fruit. 
 And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my meal analogy. But to me, 
 it fits quite well. I am getting something quite secular -- a meal -- a 
 useful meditation technique -- at the HUGE cost of listening to someone give 
 thanks prior to the meal. I don't get the outrage.

So how would you feel if your child in public school was forbidden from eating 
all day during the month of Ramadan?  Would that be okaydokey?

 
 I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My Indian 
 friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have something in common 
 with them and their religion. But I can't be a Hindu in traditional Hinduism. 
 White boys not allowed. So why would another white boy or worse white girl -- 
 who can never be a hindu, teaching something to another white boy who can 
 never be a hindu, somehow make teaching TM a religion. 

You not being born in the caste system has nothing to do with the beliefs being 
religious or not.  Think of the difference in knowledge between how we know 
how to build a computer and how a person knows that Jesus is their savior.

 
 And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools give these 
 as holidays, aren't they complicit in some great religious conspiracy to dupe 
 our poor cloistered youth? These holidays  CLEARLY have religious roots.

I am against too much Christian religion display in schools because I live in a 
multicultural area.  You can't give a display to everyone so I say keep it 
secular and enjoy Christmas at home. With most of the symbols being pagan and 
my background growing up with them, I love Christmas but I don't want to see a 
nativity scene at schools.

 
 No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn.
I would just as happy to see that go.  Not going to happen till we get our 
first non Christian president.

 Clearly a violation of church and state. Not only that, it has roots in pagan 
religions! Pagan! As do Christmas trees. No more lighting of the Christmas tree 
on TV at Rokerfella square or the White House.

I would just as happy to see that go.  Not going to happen till we get our 
first non Christian president. The US used to be such a Christian nation that 
it didn't matter so much.  That is changing.

 
 And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually give thanks 
 to GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!  Getting duped again by 
 the omnipresent religious conspiracy.

I hate prayers from players during games because it reveals the most idiotic 
theology I can imagine, a God who cares about sports outcomes!
 
 
 (I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am riffing on. ) 

Actually your riffs are typical of Bill O'reilly and the Christian right with a 
anyone who dares speak out about Christianity not being shoved down the throats 
of non Christians. You would enjoy his rap around Easter and Christmas when he 
plays this routine the most.  Check out the cultural shift of our country's 
increasingly diverse religions from recent census numbers.  This issue is not 
going away, it will get more intense.


 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  Most of the puja is blatantly religious. For example, the puja  
  contains the traditional shodashopachura pujana -  the puja of 16  
  offering. The puja of 16 offering is common in Hindu worship as a way  
  to receive or connect to a particular God. In this case the God is  
  the Guru, the Guru God or Guru Deva; Guru Dev:
  
  आवाहनं समर्पयामि  
  श्रीगुरु चरण कमलेभ्यो नमः
  aavaahanaM samarpayaami shriiguru charaNa kamalebhyo namaH
  Offering invocation to the lotus feet of the blessed 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[I am the eternal]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote:

 It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and worships a
 guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of church and
 state--there are a host of other issues such as with charging the
 taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can easily be taught for
 free and the destructive nature of aspects of the TM org, side effects,
 phony and biased research, etc..

Just because I succumbed to voting for Messiah Obama and think that
last night's press conference was Obama's finest hour so far doesn't
mean that I've completely sold out.  I continue to believe as I have
before.  I agree that TM is a religion and I have no problem with it
being designated as such.  My real problem lies with Judy and others
who so much want to prove that TM is non-sectarian.  This I just don't
get.   But then I put my buns and $$ where my mouth is, unlike other
TM proponents on FFL.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the host 
  offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus on  the meal 
  and not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions. And I don't somehow 
  feel tainted or duped. 
 
 This has nothing to do with the schools question.  My answer is no I don't 
 feel badly unless my host is a shitty cook.  I close my eyes and think of my 
 hostesses rack or if that is not an option, I find something of interest from 
 my well stocked mental masturbatory Rolodex.
  
  Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly taught a 
  religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving meal?  Who were 
  the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was God! Run!
 
 No it is not a religious holiday.  I think of it as giving thanks to the 
 relatives who have gathered for another year. The Indians at the first one 
 were being thankful that their new guests would never betray their 
 trust...and the Pilgrims were thankful that the Indian's wouldn't catch on 
 till the next shipment of gunpowder comes.
 
  
  Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with actual fruit. 
  And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my meal analogy. But to 
  me, it fits quite well. I am getting something quite secular -- a meal -- a 
  useful meditation technique -- at the HUGE cost of listening to someone 
  give thanks prior to the meal. I don't get the outrage.
 
 So how would you feel if your child in public school was forbidden from 
 eating all day during the month of Ramadan?  Would that be okaydokey?
 
  
  I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My Indian 
  friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have something in 
  common with them and their religion. But I can't be a Hindu in traditional 
  Hinduism. White boys not allowed. So why would another white boy or worse 
  white girl -- who can never be a hindu, teaching something to another white 
  boy who can never be a hindu, somehow make teaching TM a religion. 
 
 You not being born in the caste system has nothing to do with the beliefs 
 being religious or not.  Think of the difference in knowledge between how we 
 know how to build a computer and how a person knows that Jesus is their 
 savior.
 
  
  And don't even get me started on Christmas or Easter. If schools give these 
  as holidays, aren't they complicit in some great religious conspiracy to 
  dupe our poor cloistered youth? These holidays  CLEARLY have religious 
  roots.
 
 I am against too much Christian religion display in schools because I live in 
 a multicultural area.  You can't give a display to everyone so I say keep it 
 secular and enjoy Christmas at home. With most of the symbols being pagan and 
 my background growing up with them, I love Christmas but I don't want to see 
 a nativity scene at schools.
 
  
  No more Easter egg hunts on the White House lawn.
 I would just as happy to see that go.  Not going to happen till we get our 
 first non Christian president.
 
  Clearly a violation of church and state. Not only that, it has roots in 
 pagan religions! Pagan! As do Christmas trees. No more lighting of the 
 Christmas tree on TV at Rokerfella square or the White House.
 
 I would just as happy to see that go.  Not going to happen till we get our 
 first non Christian president. The US used to be such a Christian nation that 
 it didn't matter so much.  That is changing.
 
  
  And the damn World Series. Those religious nut players actually give thanks 
  to GOD before the game. The horror! Our poor kids!  Getting duped again by 
  the omnipresent religious conspiracy.
 
 I hate prayers from players during games because it reveals the most idiotic 
 theology I can imagine, a God who cares about sports outcomes!
  
  
  (I know you did not explicitly bring up some the points I am riffing on. ) 
 
 Actually your riffs are typical of Bill O'reilly and the Christian right with 
 a anyone who dares speak out about Christianity not being shoved down the 
 throats of non Christians. 

Boy thats a leap! You think I am trying to shove christianity down non 
christians throats. I give a rats ass about christianity. I don't like it in 
fact. it appalls me. You appear to be seeing things in my words that are not 
there. (must be the devil has gotten to you)


You would enjoy his rap around Easter and Christmas when he plays this routine 
the most.

Bill o'reily makes me puke.

  Check out the cultural shift of our country's increasingly diverse religions 
from recent census numbers.  This issue is not going away, it will get more 
intense.

My point exactly . Embrace diversity.

 
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
   Most of the puja is blatantly religious. For 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rf...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Another thought on this.
  
  We live in a pluralistic society and laudably multi-culturalism and the 
  appreciation of diversity in other culture is increasingly celebrated. 
  Where I work, a large company, the daily e-mail newsletter celebrates and 
  explains every  major religions and cultural holiday. Hindu, islamic, 
  jewish, ... Thats a cool thing IMO.  it does not make my company a 
  religious advocate nor does it have some hidden agenda. Its educating us 
  all, and making us sensitive to, other cultures. 
 
 
 
  In that light, teaching TM in the traditional way, is giving a nod to, and 
  adding to the texture of a multicultural society. Its preserving a heritage 
  enabling all to see a type of ceremony that they would not normally see. In 
  that light, the TMO should be given thanks for not coping out and 
  sanitizing the way they teach TM. They teach it in the traditional way. 
  They provide a micro museum tour of an ancient culture. I rather like that. 
  That doesn't make me Hindu or religious. It reflects that I am 
  multi-cultural and live in a diverse society of tolerance and appreciation 
  of all traditions. 
  
  You don't have a true multi-cultural society if you sanitize all 
  traditions and strip out references to God or whatever. 
 
 
 That's what the TMO has apparently attempted to do in order to get TM 
 accepted wholesale into public schools.
 
 
  That would be a sham and a shame. You have a multi-cultural society  when 
  things with religious roots can be shared and appreciated as 
  part of diverse cultures -- not phobiacized. 
 
 
 That appears to be a pitch to teach TM with its full religious implications 

I am not pitching TM. I could give a rats ass if its TM, buddhist-rooted 
meditation, Catholic-rooted mediation, hindu based yoga asanas, catholic-rooted 
philosophical tools, religions-roooted must or art. My point is that so many 
things of value in society have religious roots.  Why the secular fruit of such 
cannot be taught in schools is mind boggling as if that is teaching religion. 

 and let it join others in the diverse variety of what's available. But at the 
 same time you can't promote a specific traditional religious teaching in a 
 public school.

Sure. Don't teach religion in public schools. How is teaching a secular 
meditation technique teaching religion. Give a test on hinduism to any 1000 TM 
practicioners. They will fail miserably. They know nothing about hinduism. If 
TM is teaching religion, its doing a piss poor job.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Vaj]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, grate.swan wrote:


Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly
taught a religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving
meal?  Who were the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was
God! Run!


I don't celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, I celebrate in
as an exercise in food materialism.




And they why do you deny the same freedom to others to take what  
they want from religious traditions and use it in  a secular way?


It's not a valid comparison, unless of course you're deliberately  
trying to establish a straw man.


And of course, TM is not secular, it's only secular through either 1.  
deceit or 2. ignorance that it is ever allowed in schools.


And of course Thanksgiving is celebrated at home.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:

This shifting of the topic from teaching TM IN the schools to a general 
discussion of religious diversity and appreciation of multiculturalism is 
missing my positive appreciation of the religious nature of Maharishi's 
teaching even as an atheist.

I am pro separation of church and state and believe that religions try to blur 
the line to advance their agenda in schools, TM and creationism as examples of 
religion under secular veneers.

But outside the classroom and government agencies I have always enjoyed the 
historical context of Maharishi's version of his religious beliefs.  Both when 
I believed that Vyasa was 3/4 Vishnu and was blue skinned, and now when I see 
him as a character from an elaborate mythology.

The TM puja is one of the most beautiful songs I have learned.   I now use it 
to blow Indian taxi driver's minds rather than in the serious context of 
teaching TM, but I still love the song.

I am fascinated by religious beliefs and will always be.  I seek them out to 
understand human's better.  So I don't want my opposition to TM being peddled 
as a non religious practice in schools to be some kind of statement that I hate 
all things TM.  Obviously the belief system still intrigues me.  I may have a 
much snarkier take on the whole thing now but my delight in hearing about the 
Rajas is no less joy to me now then when I took it all seriously.  I'm a see  
the pearly white teeth on the dog kind of guy.

But keep holy communions and TM meditations at home where they belong.  If you 
want to teach kids to meditate in schools to see if it settles down the little 
monsters,(it might) then don't start the process by invoking the name of a 
Hindu god in a Hindu Puja before filling their heads full of religious beliefs 
during their meditation class.  Find a meditation style that doesn't need this 
religious belief system support. Is that really too much to ask? 




 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  
  On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:37 AM, grate.swan wrote:
  
   Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the  
   host offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus  
   on  the meal and not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions.  
   And I don't somehow feel tainted or duped.
  
  Only if it is in a public school, in the context we're talking of here.
  
  
   Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly  
   taught a religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving  
   meal?  Who were the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was  
   God! Run!
  
  I don't celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, I celebrate in  
  as an exercise in food materialism.
 
 
 
 And they why do you deny the same freedom to others to take what they want 
 from religious traditions and use it in  a secular way?
 
 Somehow you can use a holiday based on Thanksgiving  to God an not get 
 tainted by anything religious. In fact you use it for the antithesis of 
 religion -- gluttony. Yet you don't want to ban thanksgiving from schools. 
 
 So why not provide the same freedom to students who may want to use 
 meditation techniques that stem from a religious tradition but they use it in 
 totally non religious ways?
 
 I don't see the distinction. Except that one option suits you. 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
   Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with  
   actual fruit. And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my  
   meal analogy. But to me, it fits quite well. I am getting something  
   quite secular -- a meal -- a useful meditation technique -- at the  
   HUGE cost of listening to someone give thanks prior to the meal.  
   I don't get the outrage.
  
  It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and  
  worships a guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of  
  church and state--there are a host of other issues such as with  
  charging the taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can  
  easily be taught for free and the destructive nature of aspects of  
  the TM org, side effects, phony and biased research, etc..  Body  
  modification freaks also feel that insertion of needles can induce  
  pleasurable trance states. Let's not forget to invite them. And  
  voudoun trance rites often involve the sacrificing of small animals  
  to the Loa: VM, Voudoun Meditation. Yes, you too can enjoy an  
  effortless technique that takes you 'down to the crossroads' without  
  ever having to leave your chair.
  
  Perhaps you should look into what the actual goal of Hindu mental  
  ishta-devata meditation is, since you don't seem clear on what it  
  actually is.
  
  Can you name one common place you would find the Hindu 16-fold offering?
  
  
   I practiced TM for some time. I don't know much about Hinduism. My  
   Indian friends sort of tolerate my delusion that somehow I have  
   something in 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[I am the eternal]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:
 Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly taught a 
 religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving meal?  Who were 
 the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was God! Run!

 No it is not a religious holiday.  I think of it as giving thanks to the 
 relatives who have gathered for another year. The Indians at the first one 
 were being thankful that their new guests would never betray their 
 trust...and the Pilgrims were thankful that the Indian's wouldn't catch on 
 till the next shipment of gunpowder comes.


I was on my way from Colorado Springs to Juarez on a Thanksgiving.  I
was listening to the Native American Network broadcast over National
Public Radio in Albiquarky.  God, I wish I had a hard copy of the
broadcast.  They said they came for religious freedom.  We could
understand that, so we helped them learn to farm, to raise and prepare
maize, etc.  It went on to describe all of the atrocities wrought upon
the Native American by these people seeking religious freedom.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[emptybill]

In India the students used to perform a puja to their teacher, sometimes
at the beginning of long vacation breaks and sometimes at the beginning
and ending of the school year. I don't know how it is done now but I
doubt that this traditions has continued much, except in village life.
It always included a dandavat pranam along with simple gifts to the
teacher. Children did the same for their parents only more often.

Parents are the first guru. School teachers are the second. Guru-deva
depends upon the sampradaya but can be either the second or third guru
in a person's traditional life. Parents and school teachers are gurus
but not more. Even the local pandit is only an acharya not a guru-deva.

The Mahabhata clearly shows that martial arts teachers are gurus. Guru
signifies gravitas both of the teacher and of the nature of the
teaching.

Therefore from a Indian viewpoint there is nothing that makes a puja a
relgious practice as such. Puja is not yajna. It is an offering not a
sacrifice. Puja retains the form of the traditional offerings because it
is based upon a standard Indian cutural paradigm. Whether or not it is
performed for a deva depends upon the declaration of intent at the
beginning of the offering ritual.

Which brings up the question of The Force.

Vaj:
If I am going to empower some one or some thing with a certain
enlightenment-energy practice, I always unite, mentally with
visualization and with mental mantra, with that force. It's this
assumption of the acquired force that makes the empowerment
work and flow. The proper identification with the force you're
merging with is unmistakable once you're used to that presence.

Are you talking about Power (shakti) or The Force? Which
of these do you mean by enlightenment-energy?

You say you are an exponent of the Nath sampradaya.
Does this mean you are an Natha diksha guru?

Shouldn't you be calling yourself Vajranath again instead
of -dhatu? Maybe VajraGuru or NathaGuru would be better.

However, if you are initiating people into The Force then
maybe Obevaj would be more accurate.

It is my deeply inquiring mind that brings up such
grand questions. No offence meant, as Kirk would say.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:


 On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, do.rflex wrote:

  In my teacher training course, Maharishi explained that in essence,
  the initiator 'becomes' Guru Dev when the mantra is imparted from
  that deep level and given to the initiate. It's a very gentle and
  sublime, but powerful experience. For me personally while teaching,
  it has varied unpredictably in intensity.
 
  Some times while reciting and performing the Puja I have
  transcended and felt that I was losing track of where I was in the
  recitation - however at the same time noticing that the Puja
  continued flowing like a river as if all by itself.
 
  --Apparently some TM teachers don't seem to have experienced that.
  I have no definitive explanation for that.
 
  As a TM teacher trained by MMY, I have always had serious
  reservations about introducing TM wholesale into public schools
  claiming it's strictly a non-religious relaxation technique. To me
  personally, it's blatantly dishonest.


 And MMY's explanation is, in fact, a good one. The idea of the 16-
 fold worship is for the worshipper to unite his consciousness with
 the object of the worship--in this case the Guru-God as embodied in
 the discarnate human, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. The level of
 unification can occur at different levels, but the goal is always to
 unite with the god or goddess being invoked. It sounds to me like you
 simply had a very clear and innocent experience of this state.

 If I am going to empower some one or some thing with a certain
 enlightenment-energy practice, I always unite, mentally with
 visualization and with mental mantra, with that force. It's this
 assumption of the acquired force that makes the empowerment work and
 flow. The proper identification with the force you're merging with is
 unmistakable once you're used to that presence.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Sal Sunshine]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:34 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

Actually your riffs are typical of Bill O'reilly and the Christian  
right with a anyone who dares speak out about Christianity not being  
shoved down the throats of non Christians. You would enjoy his rap  
around Easter and Christmas when he plays this routine the most.   
Check out the cultural shift of our country's increasingly diverse  
religions from recent census numbers.  This issue is not going away,  
it will get more intense.


Don't you secretly miss the War On Christmas, Curtis?
Come on, admit it...it was so idiotic it was almost
endearing.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[do.rflex]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rflex@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Another thought on this.
   
   We live in a pluralistic society and laudably multi-culturalism and the 
   appreciation of diversity in other culture is increasingly celebrated. 
   Where I work, a large company, the daily e-mail newsletter celebrates and 
   explains every  major religions and cultural holiday. Hindu, islamic, 
   jewish, ... Thats a cool thing IMO.  it does not make my company a 
   religious advocate nor does it have some hidden agenda. Its educating us 
   all, and making us sensitive to, other cultures. 
  
  
  
   In that light, teaching TM in the traditional way, is giving a nod to, 
   and adding to the texture of a multicultural society. Its preserving a 
   heritage enabling all to see a type of ceremony that they would not 
   normally see. In that light, the TMO should be given thanks for not 
   coping out and sanitizing the way they teach TM. They teach it in the 
   traditional way. They provide a micro museum tour of an ancient culture. 
   I rather like that. That doesn't make me Hindu or religious. It reflects 
   that I am multi-cultural and live in a diverse society of tolerance and 
   appreciation of all traditions. 
   
   You don't have a true multi-cultural society if you sanitize all 
   traditions and strip out references to God or whatever. 
  
  
  That's what the TMO has apparently attempted to do in order to get TM 
  accepted wholesale into public schools.
  
  
   That would be a sham and a shame. You have a multi-cultural society  
   when things with religious roots can be shared and appreciated as 
   part of diverse cultures -- not phobiacized. 
  
  
  That appears to be a pitch to teach TM with its full religious implications 
 
 I am not pitching TM. I could give a rats ass if its TM, buddhist-rooted 
 meditation, Catholic-rooted mediation, hindu based yoga asanas, 
 catholic-rooted philosophical tools, religions-roooted must or art. My point 
 is that so many things of value in society have religious roots.  Why the 
 secular fruit of such cannot be taught in schools is mind boggling as if that 
 is teaching religion. 
 
  and let it join others in the diverse variety of what's available. But at 
  the same time you can't promote a specific traditional religious teaching 
  in a public school.
 
 Sure. Don't teach religion in public schools. How is teaching a secular 
 meditation technique teaching religion. 


I'm a TM teacher trained by Maharishi. Whether you say it is or not, TM is not 
a secular meditation technique. To pretend that it is is blatantly dishonest.



 Give a test on hinduism to any 1000 TM practicioners. They will 
 fail miserably. 


Probably most people in the general population claiming to be of Hindu 
background would likely fail the same test just as miserably. Very much like, 
for example, Catholics I know haven't a clue about the details of Catholicism.

Most TM teachers on the other hand, having been trained by Maharishi, are 
necessarily quite familiar with the primary Hindu concepts. Since Sanatana 
Dharma and its religious 'Holy Tradition' is the central life basis of the 
whole thing, you simply cannot honestly pass TM off as a strictly secular 
meditation technique. IT. IS. NOT.

To intentionally leave out the whole basis of TM and to try to pawn it off as a 
strictly secular meditation technique AND to try to wholesale introduce it into 
the public school system - is glaringly unethical, dishonest and deceptive. 

Any religious body who saw that attempt would rightly be justified in screaming 
bloody murder to see TM included as part of the curriculum of a public school.

A separate, off-campus non-taxpayer funded club might be acceptable. But not as 
part and parcel of the public education system.

In that regard, the TMO comes off here like the crackpot fundamentalist 
creationist movement who try to pass off their bullshit 'intelligent design' as 
legitimate science into the public school system. 


 They know nothing about hinduism. If TM is teaching 
 religion, its doing a piss poor job.


The TMO *is* doing a piss poor job pretending that TM is secular. It is NOT a 
secular meditation technique.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[grate . swan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_reply@ wrote:
 
 This shifting of the topic from teaching TM IN the schools to a general 
 discussion of religious diversity and appreciation of multiculturalism is 
 missing my positive appreciation of the religious nature of Maharishi's 
 teaching even as an atheist.
 
 I am pro separation of church and state and believe that religions try to 
 blur the line to advance their agenda in schools, TM and creationism as 
 examples of religion under secular veneers.
 
 But outside the classroom and government agencies I have always enjoyed the 
 historical context of Maharishi's version of his religious beliefs.  Both 
 when I believed that Vyasa was 3/4 Vishnu and was blue skinned, and now when 
 I see him as a character from an elaborate mythology.
 
 The TM puja is one of the most beautiful songs I have learned.   I now use it 
 to blow Indian taxi driver's minds rather than in the serious context of 
 teaching TM, but I still love the song.
 
 I am fascinated by religious beliefs and will always be.  I seek them out to 
 understand human's better.  So I don't want my opposition to TM being peddled 
 as a non religious practice in schools to be some kind of statement that I 
 hate all things TM.  Obviously the belief system still intrigues me.  I may 
 have a much snarkier take on the whole thing now but my delight in hearing 
 about the Rajas is no less joy to me now then when I took it all seriously.  
 I'm a see  the pearly white teeth on the dog kind of guy.
 
 But keep holy communions and TM meditations at home where they belong.  If 
 you want to teach kids to meditate in schools to see if it settles down the 
 little monsters,(it might) then don't start the process by invoking the name 
 of a Hindu god in a Hindu Puja before filling their heads full of religious 
 beliefs during their meditation class.  Find a meditation style that doesn't 
 need this religious belief system support. Is that really too much to ask? 


I am all for offering that.  But I don't see any violation of the constitution 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

if TM is also taught. Or Buddhist medtitation or christian cnetering prayer or 
jewish kabala or sufi swirling. As options. If its mandatory -- I may have 
issue with it, depending on the context. 
 
Is the DLF a mandatory thing ALL kids must take to graduate? If not, what is 
the issue? If TM rubs some sensitive religious type the wrong way, they should 
not take the course.




 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
   
   On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:37 AM, grate.swan wrote:
   
Does it upset you when you are a guest at a sumptuous meal and the  
host offers grace before the meal. I may be shallow, but I focus  
on  the meal and not on my hosts particular beliefs or traditions.  
And I don't somehow feel tainted or duped.
   
   Only if it is in a public school, in the context we're talking of here.
   
   
Thanksgiving. Is that a religious holiday? Am I being secretly  
taught a religion if I take the holiday off, and eat a thanksgiving  
meal?  Who were the pilgrims offering thanks to? Oh my God! It was  
God! Run!
   
   I don't celebrate Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, I celebrate in  
   as an exercise in food materialism.
  
  
  
  And they why do you deny the same freedom to others to take what they want 
  from religious traditions and use it in  a secular way?
  
  Somehow you can use a holiday based on Thanksgiving  to God an not get 
  tainted by anything religious. In fact you use it for the antithesis of 
  religion -- gluttony. Yet you don't want to ban thanksgiving from schools. 
  
  So why not provide the same freedom to students who may want to use 
  meditation techniques that stem from a religious tradition but they use it 
  in totally non religious ways?
  
  I don't see the distinction. Except that one option suits you. 
  
  
  
  
  
   
   
Curtis doesn't like me to equate the fruit of meditation with  
actual fruit. And I am sure I am transgressing his beliefs with my  
meal analogy. But to me, it fits quite well. I am getting something  
quite secular -- a meal -- a useful meditation technique -- at the  
HUGE cost of listening to someone give thanks prior to the meal.  
I don't get the outrage.
   
   It's a religious technique that invokes gods and goddesses and  
   worships a guru as a god--it therefore violates the separation of  
   church and state--there are a host of other issues such as with  
   charging the taxpayers exorbitant fees for meditation, which can  
   easily be taught for free and the destructive nature of aspects of  
   the TM org, side effects, phony and biased research, etc..  Body  
   modification freaks also feel 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Religious aspects of the TM puja; Connecting to the Guru God

[Kirk]

It is my deeply inquiring mind that brings up such
grand questions. No offence meant, as Kirk would say.

---Woohoo, a shout out from Ireland. You go Boy!