Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 15 Jul 2005 at 1:46, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> On 15 Jul 2005, at 1:35 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > On 15 Jul 2005 at 1:17, Darcy James Argue wrote:
> >
> >> Any ATI or nVidia graphics card with 32MB or more supports OpenGL
> >> (and, on Windows, Direct3D -- the Windows version of Sib may use
> >> Direct3D, I don't know).
> >
> > Is nVidia the chipset that ATI uses?
> 
> No.  nVidia and ATI are rivals.
> 
> > Mine is ATI and I know it's an
> > nVidia chipset.
> 
> I'm afraid you must be mistaken.  (That would be like saying "Mine is
> an Intel and I know it's an Athlon chipset.")

Well, somewhere along the line, I had an nVidia chipset.

Perhaps it was my old PC.

Geez, why do I clutter up my brain by remembering useless information 
like that?

> > Maybe I'm just misremembering when 16- and 32MB video cards became
> > normal.
> 
> If I recall correctly, somewhere around 1999-2000.

Well, this machine was shipped from Dell 4/14/1999, and was bought on 
the high end of the product line (it was one of the first Pentium 4 
machines available). I know 8MBs wasn't an unusual amount of RAM, 
because my previous PC, purchased in 1996 had that much (though I had 
spent an extra $60 to upgrade it).

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RE: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[keith helgesen]

There is no such thing as gravity- the Earth sucks!

That came from one of my grand-daughter's friends yesterday!

Cheers K in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0439-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Christopher Smith
Sent: Friday, 15 July 2005 1:19 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.


On Jul 14, 2005, at 10:05 PM, dhbailey wrote:

> Raymond Horton wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:
>>>
 Okay, what's the term for words which are originally antonyms but 
 which in certain situations mean the same thing?

 Example:  Cool, HotThat's really cool!  That's really hot!  
 (both meaning essentially "that's really phat!")  ;-)

>>>
>>> Or, "That band really sucks!" "That band really blows!"
>>>
>>> (But only in a rock/pop context. In a jazz context, "That band 
>>> really blows" means it improvises with extraordinary creativity and 
>>> group sensitivity.)
>>>
>>> 8-)
>>>
>>> Christopher
>>>
>> In the original, non-musical meaning of the two words, suck and blow 
>> mean the same thing, and neither is a really accurate description of 
>> the act, but at least the former implies the correct direction.
>
> I don't think what you are hinting at are the original non-musical 
> meanings of those two words.
>


Hmm, OK. Time for some slang etymology here.

When I was a boy, the term "suck" as in "You suck!" was only applied to 
people, and in fact only to males, and usually to their performance in 
sports. The term was quite homophobic, in fact, implying that instead 
of getting in and playing the sport like a man, they were being 
"fairies" (not my term!) and letting themselves be dominated by the MEN 
who were playing well. The meaning of the term was quite clear to me 
and everyone else, as it was substituted quite often by other taunts of 
the same nature.

It was only much later that I heard it applied to things, like "This 
hamburger sucks!" It became clear that the expression no longer meant 
what it used to mean, and just meant "bad". I noticed a similar shift 
in meaning in the word "pansy", which now apparently means "not 
aggressive" or "gentle-natured" with no connection at all to my 
generation's association of the term with homosexuality. It was freely 
thrown around in the children's film "Madagascar" that I just took my 
kids to this week, for crying out loud!

Maybe fifteen years ago I first heard "blows" meaning bad. It was 
around the time that the expression "blowing chunks" (for throwing up) 
gained popularity, and often the two were interchanged. "That team 
blows chunks!" would be freely interchanged with "That team blows!" Of 
course, now it just means "bad." Note there is no connection with 
"sucks" that is immediately apparent to today's generation, just as 
there is no connection between "phat" and "fat".

By contrast, in the jazz world "blow" has meant "improvise" for at 
least eighty years, and maybe more. It also applies equally to non-wind 
instruments, which caused me to giggle immoderately my first week in 
music school when the teacher said, "OK, the guitar will blow first, 
then the piano will take the next blow."

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:30, Tyler Turner wrote:

> --- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I would like to see a better, more consistent
> > implementation of 
> > partial measure selection in Finale, as well as the
> > ability to do non-
> > contiguous selections. Having that capability in
> > partial measure 
> > selections also implies the capability to do it with
> > full measure 
> > selections, meaning that you could select measure 4
> > in the piano 
> > right hand and measure 6 in the violin and perform
> > the same operation 
> > on them.
> > 
> > Wouldn't that be useful? It certainly would be for
> > me!
> 
> Yes! It would be useful. I hope I don't seem to be
> debating that. . . .

And the way Finale has implemented the Mass Edit tool makes it more 
likely that such a feature could get implemented, I think.

> . . . For what it's worth, Sibelius won't let
> you select measure 4 and measure 6 - same staff or
> not. It allows non-contiguous entry selection or same
> measure different staves, but not different measures.

It allows you to ctrl-click any notes that are visible onscreen, but 
they can be on any pages of the file, even ones that you've scrolled 
offscreen.

I'm not sure that's real-world useful or not, because here the page-
based display really gets in my way.

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 1:35 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 15 Jul 2005 at 1:17, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Any ATI or nVidia graphics card with 32MB or more supports OpenGL
(and, on Windows, Direct3D -- the Windows version of Sib may use
Direct3D, I don't know).


Is nVidia the chipset that ATI uses?


No.  nVidia and ATI are rivals.


Mine is ATI and I know it's an
nVidia chipset.


I'm afraid you must be mistaken.  (That would be like saying "Mine is 
an Intel and I know it's an Athlon chipset.")



Maybe I'm just misremembering when 16- and 32MB video cards became
normal.


If I recall correctly, somewhere around 1999-2000.

Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

Re my own question about copying articulations.
Nevermind - I forgot the plug-in. You select the
source, run the plugin, choose to copy the source the
clip board. Close the plug-in. Highlight the target,
run the plug-in, paste, close the plug-in. And then
just hope you don't need to undo. 

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

One thing I am forgetting in Sibelius... what's the
workaround for copying articulations without notes?
You can't separately filter the property elements of
notes, which includes the articulations.

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 15 Jul 2005 at 1:17, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> Any ATI or nVidia graphics card with 32MB or more supports OpenGL
> (and, on Windows, Direct3D -- the Windows version of Sib may use
> Direct3D, I don't know).

Is nVidia the chipset that ATI uses? Mine is ATI and I know it's an 
nVidia chipset. I can't seem to find any way to poke the thing to 
find out how much RAM it has. It currently has a driver installed for 
the 8MB version, but that could be the wrong one. I'd have to 
uninstall and redetect to find out, and I don't have the time for 
that (and it could still redetect wrong, since I believe that's how I 
did it after I tested a newer driver, which failed to work).

I'm almost certain that this machine would not have been bought with 
such a meager video card as only 8MBs, but I don't have the original 
ordering information, as I bought it from a client (for whom I'd 
originally speced it out and set it up) when it was less than a year 
old (and used it as nothing more than a file and web server for about 
18 months).

Oops, now I know -- I was able to pull up the shipped configuration 
on Dell's website, and it is only 8MBs.

Well, that answers that, at least.

I still am surprised that we skimped on video, since I've always 
considered it crucially important to have lots of video RAM to insure 
getting maximum performance out of the Windows GUI. That and RAM and 
fast hard disks are the most important factors in having a fast PC -- 
most bargain PCs skimp heavily in those three areas, but this was 
*not* a cheap PC. It came with 256MBs, a 20GB hard drive and a tape 
drive, back when that was a *really* heavy-duty, workstation-level 
configuration (one of my clients' NT file server had only 256MBs at 
the same time, and it was only a 1-year-old server).

Maybe I'm just misremembering when 16- and 32MB video cards became 
normal.

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to see a better, more consistent
> implementation of 
> partial measure selection in Finale, as well as the
> ability to do non-
> contiguous selections. Having that capability in
> partial measure 
> selections also implies the capability to do it with
> full measure 
> selections, meaning that you could select measure 4
> in the piano 
> right hand and measure 6 in the violin and perform
> the same operation 
> on them.
> 
> Wouldn't that be useful? It certainly would be for
> me!
> 

Yes! It would be useful. I hope I don't seem to be
debating that. For what it's worth, Sibelius won't let
you select measure 4 and measure 6 - same staff or
not. It allows non-contiguous entry selection or same
measure different staves, but not different measures.

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Ken Durling]

By the way, I'm not sure I really experience "redraw" slowness on my 866 
machine.  What I reported was that it did take a fraction of a second 
longer for the cursor to appear after a Ctrl+T command.   Most other 
operations seem normal, although I haven't really put the demo through its 
paces on this machine since I do all my work on the other one.


Ken


At 10:13 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:
It does have 32mb of video RAM, but I don't think it has OpenGL.  To be 
honest I'm not really even sure how or where that would be indicated.  I 
have an Intel 82810 graphics controller.w/32MB on the slower machine, and 
an NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5700 w/64MB video RAM on the fast one.  That tell 
anyone anything?  :-)


Ken


At 06:02 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:


I wonder if Ken's 866MHz PC has an OpenGL graphics card with 32MBs or
more?



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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Ken,

Any ATI or nVidia graphics card with 32MB or more supports OpenGL (and, 
on Windows, Direct3D -- the Windows version of Sib may use Direct3D, I 
don't know).


The "Intel graphics controller" is not a proper graphics controller at 
all -- it means there is no separate graphics card, and the CPU has to 
handle drawing in addition to everything else.  Whether it supports 
OpenGL or Direct3D is anyone's guess -- if it did, it would be very 
slow.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 15 Jul 2005, at 1:13 AM, Ken Durling wrote:

It does have 32mb of video RAM, but I don't think it has OpenGL.  To 
be honest I'm not really even sure how or where that would be 
indicated.  I have an Intel 82810 graphics controller.w/32MB on the 
slower machine, and an NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5700 w/64MB video RAM on 
the fast one.  That tell anyone anything?  :-)


Ken


At 06:02 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:


I wonder if Ken's 866MHz PC has an OpenGL graphics card with 32MBs or
more?



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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Ken Durling]

It does have 32mb of video RAM, but I don't think it has OpenGL.  To be 
honest I'm not really even sure how or where that would be indicated.  I 
have an Intel 82810 graphics controller.w/32MB on the slower machine, and 
an NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5700 w/64MB video RAM on the fast one.  That tell 
anyone anything?  :-)


Ken


At 06:02 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:


I wonder if Ken's 866MHz PC has an OpenGL graphics card with 32MBs or
more?



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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 21:58, Tyler Turner wrote:

> --- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Now, if articulations always had handles like
> > expressions do, then 
> > the Sibelius functionality would be blown away.
> 
> Articulations always showing handles in Finale? Which
> version are you using? This has been a Finale feature
> since 2004 I believe - maybe 2005. Have I
> misunderstood you?

I use WinFin2K3, and have been playing with the Finale 2005 demo the 
last couple of days. I had not noticed this.

So:


Never mind.



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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 15 Jul 2005 at 0:37, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> On 15 Jul 2005, at 12:22 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > In Finale you cannot select the 1st and 3rd of 3 notes in one
> > operation.
> 
> But you don't NEED to do this, is my point.  In Finale, you can select
> *and* apply the articulation with a single click (or drag-enclose
> operation).  So being able to select non-contiguous notes provides no
> absolutely *no additional benefit.*
> 
> If you have to click on a note or block of notes) to select it/them,
> you might as well apply the articulation you want *right away*,
> instead of selecting multiple non-contiguous blocks of notes and
> *then* applying the articulation.

I've already dealt with this:

1. the selection remains.

2. it is easily undoable, either by one UNDO buffer item, or by using 
the palette to turn off what you just did (or what you did yesterday 
to the same notes).

3. it makes it easier to selectively remove items that have already 
been applied.

For just plain articulation entry, no, the number of mouse clicks is 
not fewer. But I would argue that there's not much difference when 
you consider that you have to coordinate metatool keystroke with 
mouse click in Finale, whereas you don't need to in Sibelius (of 
course, I usually just hold down the key and click, so it seems 
pretty much identical, except for the question other whether you hit 
the number before or after you start clicking).

I recognized that the Sibelius palettes are much more limited than 
Finale's metatools.

But to me, the alternate selection behavior is a big advantage, and 
partly because it is consistent with non-contiguous selection of 
items in any number of other user interfaces. Finale simply doesn't 
provide non-contiguous selection, except for items that display 
handles at all times.

If Finale articulations had handles all the time like expressions, 
the Sibelius advantage would be gone, I'd say.

-- 
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 21:37, Tyler Turner wrote:

> --- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Finale requires the same number of mouse clicks if
> > you metatool 
> > applied to each individual note. But the result is
> > as many UNDO 
> > buffer events as there were mouse clicks. In
> > Sibelius, you have the 
> > same number of ctrl-clicks as Finale has metatool
> > clicks, but when 
> > you apply the articulation, it's one item in the
> > UNDO buffer.
> 
> Which can be a another big reason to prefer the Finale
> method as well. Make a mistake in Sibelius, and you
> are undoing all of them. . .

But they are *still* selected, so it's not hard to apply the 
correction.

> . . . Make a mistake in Finale, you
> correct the mistake then and there. Try to select a
> bunch of notes in Sibelius, screw up your selection by
> accidentally letting up a little too much on the ctrl
> or shift key, you're left to reselect everything.

I don't seem to have that problem, myself.

I *do* have problems with drag selection in Finale, often missing the 
first note.

> Finale, you hit escape to close the stupid
> Articulation dialog box. When I work with Sibelius, I
> don't do a large amount of non-contiguous selection
> for this very reason. 
> 
> It's a great thing to have! Don't get me wrong. But
> the undo buffer can go either way.

But I think the real power is in the fact that the selection once 
defined is static, and editable (i.e., you can add or subtract notes 
from it as needed). With Finale, it's all or nothing between starting 
point and ending, and with articulation metatool mass apply, the 
selection is gone once you release the mouse button.

I would like to see a better, more consistent implementation of 
partial measure selection in Finale, as well as the ability to do non-
contiguous selections. Having that capability in partial measure 
selections also implies the capability to do it with full measure 
selections, meaning that you could select measure 4 in the piano 
right hand and measure 6 in the violin and perform the same operation 
on them.

Wouldn't that be useful? It certainly would be for me!

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't get why there's any benefit to it beyond
> regular mass copy 
> used selectively. That *also* copies between the
> same rhythmic 
> values, but also has the advantage in some cases of
> copying to 
> *different* rhythmic values. 

That's the advantage - you don't have to be selective
- it does the selecting for you, either with my
confirmation or without. I guess it doesn't help you,
but it sure makes my life easier at times.


> 
> The other Sibelius advantage is that once the notes
> are selected, the 
> tool palette "loads" the items that are on those
> notes and allows you 
> to change them/remove them, etc. That's quite a
> useful method, much 
> easier for deleting than using the articulation
> deletion from the 
> Mass Edit menu, or doing them one at a time. 

That's what I was referring to by:

>> Sibelius
> gets
> > points for being able to delete specific
> articulations
> > from a range of notes and for the ability to add
> more
> > than one articulation after selecting the notes
> only
> > once.
> 
> Now, if articulations always had handles like
> expressions do, then 
> the Sibelius functionality would be blown away.

Articulations always showing handles in Finale? Which
version are you using? This has been a Finale feature
since 2004 I believe - maybe 2005. Have I
misunderstood you?

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>With only two notes involved, the comparison is
pretty >equal, but if 
>there's more, Sibelius is clearly quicker.

Only if you intend to do something more with the notes
after the fact, right?

Sibelius:
Hold Ctrl and click 20 non-contiguous notes
navigate to (if necessary) and press articulation key

Finale:
Hold Metatool and click 20 non-contiguous notes


Tyler

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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

Christopher Smith wrote:


Hmm, OK. Time for some slang etymology here.

...
Maybe fifteen years ago I first heard "blows" meaning bad. It was 
around the time that the expression "blowing chunks" (for throwing up) 
gained popularity, and often the two were interchanged. "That team 
blows chunks!" would be freely interchanged with "That team blows!" Of 
course, now it just means "bad." Note there is no connection with 
"sucks" that is immediately apparent to today's generation, just as 
there is no connection between "phat" and "fat".


Sorry, but a quick check of Internet slang dictionaries do not agree 
with you that the slang "blow" is only short for "blow chunks." It seems 
to be as a verb most often connected with oral sex, as a noun with 
cocaine.  Only farther down the lists do the chunkier definitions 
appear.   


(From a man who knows how to blow when he needs to)
Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra





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Re: [Finale] Jazz quarter notes

[Chuck Israels]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 8:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:I have never had good results leaving jazz quarter notes up to chance.  They are all marked either staccato or tenuto (or, of course, ^ or >).Me too, in spite of the fact that Dave Berger thinks it's excessively cluttered.  In a way, I agree.  I'd prefer all quarter notes to be interpreted at full value, unless otherwise marked - "classical" style, but that still requires a lot of ^ markings on most of the quarters in a jazz piece, and I don't have the luxury of a stable stable of players who will know the interpretation I'd like.  I must admit that David's scores are less cluttered with articulations (all quarters short, unless marked long), and you can't argue with the interpretations of his players.  He gets what he wants.ChuckChuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com  ___
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 21:29, Tyler Turner wrote:

> 
> > 
> > But it does *not* offer the same functionality. It
> > only offers the 
> > ability to copy from one source to another.
> > 
> > Well, unless I completely do *not* understand how it
> > works -- the 
> > online documentation says it's for COPYING. That's
> > great if you've 
> > got a model to copy from, but it still does not come
> > close to the 
> > Sibelius functionality, which actually solves a
> > problem that has 
> > always annoyed me about Finale's metatool drag for
> > articulations.
> > 
> > I never stated that you couldn't get the
> > articulations onto the notes 
> > you want them to be on. Ferchrissakes, you can click
> > on each note 
> > individually and choose the articulation from the
> > selection dialog. 
> > But it's much faster with the shortcuts provided
> > both by Finale and 
> > Sibelius. 
> > 
> > And Sibelius's shortcuts for this in this one
> > instance provide more 
> > functionality than Finale's.
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> >From your other response, I'm not sure we're on the
> same page with smartfind and paint. NO. It doesn't do
> what you're talking about - but it still might be
> useful as a means of helping you reduce the time you
> spend on entering articulations. I'm not sure I made
> its usefulness clear. The source doesn't have to have
> the same pitches as the various targets - only the
> same rhythm. Common rhythmic motives are frequent in
> most music. But maybe they aren't in yours! I just
> wanted to be clear.

I don't get why there's any benefit to it beyond regular mass copy 
used selectively. That *also* copies between the same rhythmic 
values, but also has the advantage in some cases of copying to 
*different* rhythmic values. 

I just am not doing engraving where the SmartFind and Paint would 
save me any time whatsoever. Well, maybe once in a blue moon, but I 
just don't see that it would be very often for me.

> Here's where I see Sibelius vs. Finale on this: Finale
> gets points for having a one step application of
> articulations (Sibelius does take a minimum of two).
> It also gets points for having a quick way to delete
> all articulations from a range of notes. Sibelius gets
> points for being able to delete specific articulations
> from a range of notes and for the ability to add more
> than one articulation after selecting the notes only
> once. In the case of non-contiguous notes, this can be
> particularly handy. Finally, Finale gets points for
> having an entire keyboard's set of metatools devoted
> to articulations, whereas in Sibelius you're going to
> flip through keypads (or sacrifice/make awkward
> keyboard commands).

The other Sibelius advantage is that once the notes are selected, the 
tool palette "loads" the items that are on those notes and allows you 
to change them/remove them, etc. That's quite a useful method, much 
easier for deleting than using the articulation deletion from the 
Mass Edit menu, or doing them one at a time. 

Now, if articulations always had handles like expressions do, then 
the Sibelius functionality would be blown away.

The non-contiguous selection is something I've wished Finale did for 
a very long time. Every time I'm drag applying articulations I run 
into cases where it would be quite helpful.

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 12:22 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:


In Finale you cannot select the 1st and 3rd of 3 notes in one
operation.


But you don't NEED to do this, is my point.  In Finale, you can select 
*and* apply the articulation with a single click (or drag-enclose 
operation).  So being able to select non-contiguous notes provides no 
absolutely *no additional benefit.*


If you have to click on a note or block of notes) to select it/them, 
you might as well apply the articulation you want *right away*, instead 
of selecting multiple non-contiguous blocks of notes and *then* 
applying the articulation.


- Darcy
-
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Finale requires the same number of mouse clicks if
> you metatool 
> applied to each individual note. But the result is
> as many UNDO 
> buffer events as there were mouse clicks. In
> Sibelius, you have the 
> same number of ctrl-clicks as Finale has metatool
> clicks, but when 
> you apply the articulation, it's one item in the
> UNDO buffer.

Which can be a another big reason to prefer the Finale
method as well. Make a mistake in Sibelius, and you
are undoing all of them. Make a mistake in Finale, you
correct the mistake then and there. Try to select a
bunch of notes in Sibelius, screw up your selection by
accidentally letting up a little too much on the ctrl
or shift key, you're left to reselect everything.
Finale, you hit escape to close the stupid
Articulation dialog box. When I work with Sibelius, I
don't do a large amount of non-contiguous selection
for this very reason. 

It's a great thing to have! Don't get me wrong. But
the undo buffer can go either way.

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

> 
> But it does *not* offer the same functionality. It
> only offers the 
> ability to copy from one source to another.
> 
> Well, unless I completely do *not* understand how it
> works -- the 
> online documentation says it's for COPYING. That's
> great if you've 
> got a model to copy from, but it still does not come
> close to the 
> Sibelius functionality, which actually solves a
> problem that has 
> always annoyed me about Finale's metatool drag for
> articulations.
> 
> I never stated that you couldn't get the
> articulations onto the notes 
> you want them to be on. Ferchrissakes, you can click
> on each note 
> individually and choose the articulation from the
> selection dialog. 
> But it's much faster with the shortcuts provided
> both by Finale and 
> Sibelius. 
> 
> And Sibelius's shortcuts for this in this one
> instance provide more 
> functionality than Finale's.
> 
> -- 

>From your other response, I'm not sure we're on the
same page with smartfind and paint. NO. It doesn't do
what you're talking about - but it still might be
useful as a means of helping you reduce the time you
spend on entering articulations. I'm not sure I made
its usefulness clear. The source doesn't have to have
the same pitches as the various targets - only the
same rhythm. Common rhythmic motives are frequent in
most music. But maybe they aren't in yours! I just
wanted to be clear.

Here's where I see Sibelius vs. Finale on this: Finale
gets points for having a one step application of
articulations (Sibelius does take a minimum of two).
It also gets points for having a quick way to delete
all articulations from a range of notes. Sibelius gets
points for being able to delete specific articulations
from a range of notes and for the ability to add more
than one articulation after selecting the notes only
once. In the case of non-contiguous notes, this can be
particularly handy. Finally, Finale gets points for
having an entire keyboard's set of metatools devoted
to articulations, whereas in Sibelius you're going to
flip through keypads (or sacrifice/make awkward
keyboard commands).

Tyler




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Re: [Finale] Jazz quarter notes

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:31 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

I had to create a playback file for my jazz ear training class, and I 
ended up adding a lot of non-printing articulations to change note 
lengths where the performance practice required it (short quarter 
notes, in my case.) This idea might be useful to you if you have to 
do this often.


You mean you *don't* normally put articulations on *all* quarter notes 
(in a swing style)?


I have never had good results leaving jazz quarter notes up to chance. 
 They are all marked either staccato or tenuto (or, of course, ^ or 
>).




 do, especially inside a phrase, but for the jazz ear training 
class' purposes I was trying to teach them common practice as well, 
when there is nothing (or very little) marked.


Also, I am not likely to mark quarters followed by a rest as short, 
even though they will almost certainly be performed that way. Finale 
sounds dumb holding them out full value.


And I actually prefer (for long accented quarters only) the combination 
sideways accent and tenuto, as the sideways accent alone has been used 
for short quarters for so long in standard repertoire that I can't 
count on players performing it full value.


And (and, and!) I have noticed the young cats coming out of McGill 
playing quarters marked staccato as a tongue-stopped staccatissimo. 
Very ugly! I had to dissuade them of that (it was my gig, so I could!)  
They claim that marking nothing at all will get the kind of fat, 
round-ended quarter I am used to.


Kids today!

Christopher

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 23:57, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:15 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:15, Darcy James Argue wrote:
> >
> >> You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply
> >> articulation dialog.
> >>
> >> In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the
> >> articulation you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you
> >> want.
> >>
> >> I only wish note expressions worked like this too.
> >
> > Yes, I know this perfectly well.
> >
> > But it only works with CONTIGUOUS notes -- all the notes within the
> > drag area get the articulation applied.
> >
> > Sibelius offers a really easy method for doing this with non-
> > contiguous notes.
> 
> Yes, but since you have to shift-select or drag-enclose those 
> non-contiguous notes anyway, I don't see how that's faster than 
> Finale's metatool method.  Especially since in Sibelius you have to
> select the notes *then* apply the articulation, whereas in Finale you
> can select *and* apply all in one step.

In Finale you cannot select the 1st and 3rd of 3 notes in one 
operation.

Which is what I mean by "selecting non-contiguous notes."

Also, consider this:

Finale requires the same number of mouse clicks if you metatool 
applied to each individual note. But the result is as many UNDO 
buffer events as there were mouse clicks. In Sibelius, you have the 
same number of ctrl-clicks as Finale has metatool clicks, but when 
you apply the articulation, it's one item in the UNDO buffer.

It also leaves the relevant notes selected to apply something else 
to, if that were needed (though that's not a common situation).

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 15 Jul 2005 at 0:02, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:23 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > My point is that Finale only allows a range of notes. If you start
> > on beat 1 and end on beat 3, beat 2 is included. Sibelius allows you
> > to select beat 1 and beat 3 without selecting beat 2. This is a
> > useful feature.
> 
> But David, the point Tyler and I have been trying to make is that once
> you've selected beat 1 and beat 3 in Sib, the articulation *still* has
> not been applied.  So even though Finale doesn't have non-contiguous
> selection, it doesn't matter since applying an articulation is
> *exactly as fast* as simply selecting the notes.
> 
> Here are the steps in Sib.
> 
> 1) Drag-enclose to select Beat 1.
> 2) Shift-drag-enclose to select Beat 3.
> 3) Apply the articulation.

No.

Ctrl-click note 1.

Ctrl-click note 2.

Apply the articulation.

> Here are the steps in Finale:
> 
> 1) Drag-enclose Beat 1 while holding a metatool.
> 2) Drag-enclose Beat 3 without letting go of the metatool.

To me, holding the metatool and clicking is really not significantly 
different from selecting a notes and then clicking the keypad. The 
difference is simultaneity.

With only two notes involved, the comparison is pretty equal, but if 
there's more, Sibelius is clearly quicker.

Take my original example of 8 eighths and you want a stacatto on 3, 4 
and 7, 8. In Sibelius, I can ctrl-click on any randomly chosen 
selection of notes and apply an articulation to all of them. The more 
notes you want to apply it to at once, and the less of a recurring 
pattern there is to those notes, the more the Sibelius method gets 
better.

Take for instance, a passage in 12/8 where I wanted a stacatto on the 
last 8th of each beat. Finale basically requires a metatool click for 
each individual note, Sibelius a ctrl-click for each note. But once 
selected, I can do anything to those notes that I like.

I do this kind of thing in Finale's MIDI window all the time. When 
I'm changing the lengths of grace notes (to make them on the beat) 
and, say, I have a passage with a sequence of a figure with a grace 
note in it, I select all the grace notes by shift clicking each of 
them, then going to the menu to set the ending point. Then I shift 
click the notes they are attached to and set the starting point to 
make room for the grace note. This is much easier than doing all of 
them separately.

Likewise with passages of articulations where I want to apply them in 
a batch, I think the Sibelius way is going to be easier for me. Not 
*much* easier -- the Finale way is pretty fast (i.e., just metatool 
clicking each note in turn) -- but easier in a way that I have missed 
many times in using Finale. It's a selection method I've *wanted* in 
Finale even before I knew Sibelius offered it.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
All non-quoted content (c) David W. Fenton, all rights reserved

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:23 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


My point is that Finale only allows a range of notes. If you start on
beat 1 and end on beat 3, beat 2 is included. Sibelius allows you to
select beat 1 and beat 3 without selecting beat 2. This is a useful
feature.


But David, the point Tyler and I have been trying to make is that once 
you've selected beat 1 and beat 3 in Sib, the articulation *still* has 
not been applied.  So even though Finale doesn't have non-contiguous 
selection, it doesn't matter since applying an articulation is *exactly 
as fast* as simply selecting the notes.


Here are the steps in Sib.

1) Drag-enclose to select Beat 1.
2) Shift-drag-enclose to select Beat 3.
3) Apply the articulation.

Here are the steps in Finale:

1) Drag-enclose Beat 1 while holding a metatool.
2) Drag-enclose Beat 3 without letting go of the metatool.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 23:37, Christopher Smith wrote:

> 
> On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:15 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:15, Darcy James Argue wrote:
> >
> >> You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply
> >> articulation dialog.
> >>
> >> In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the
> >> articulation you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you
> >> want.
> >>
> >> I only wish note expressions worked like this too.
> >
> > Yes, I know this perfectly well.
> >
> > But it only works with CONTIGUOUS notes -- all the notes within the
> > drag area get the articulation applied.
> 
> If you hold down the Delete key (on a Mac, it might be Backspace on a
> PC) and click on or drag across some notes in the Articulation Tool,
> the articulations get deleted. You can use this if every 1st note
> needs a tenuto, while the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th need stacattos. Give EVERY
> note a staccato, then delete the first ones. Then add the tenutos. You
> could also do this for one measure, then set Mass Edit to copy only
> articulations, and drag and drop the measure everywhere else those
> articulations are needed.

More steps than Sibelius.

> > Sibelius offers a really easy method for doing this with non-
> > contiguous notes.
> 
> Finale does too, with the Smart Find and Paint option. This might be
> too new for you (are you in Fin2003?)

I didn't know it existed, but it is there in WinFin2K3, as well.

But it does *not* offer the same functionality. It only offers the 
ability to copy from one source to another.

Well, unless I completely do *not* understand how it works -- the 
online documentation says it's for COPYING. That's great if you've 
got a model to copy from, but it still does not come close to the 
Sibelius functionality, which actually solves a problem that has 
always annoyed me about Finale's metatool drag for articulations.

I never stated that you couldn't get the articulations onto the notes 
you want them to be on. Ferchrissakes, you can click on each note 
individually and choose the articulation from the selection dialog. 
But it's much faster with the shortcuts provided both by Finale and 
Sibelius. 

And Sibelius's shortcuts for this in this one instance provide more 
functionality than Finale's.

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:15 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:15, Darcy James Argue wrote:


You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply
articulation dialog.

In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the articulation
you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you want.

I only wish note expressions worked like this too.


Yes, I know this perfectly well.

But it only works with CONTIGUOUS notes -- all the notes within the
drag area get the articulation applied.

Sibelius offers a really easy method for doing this with non-
contiguous notes.


Yes, but since you have to shift-select or drag-enclose those 
non-contiguous notes anyway, I don't see how that's faster than 
Finale's metatool method.  Especially since in Sibelius you have to 
select the notes *then* apply the articulation, whereas in Finale you 
can select *and* apply all in one step.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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[Finale] Jazz quarter notes

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 11:31 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

I had to create a playback file for my jazz ear training class, and I 
ended up adding a lot of non-printing articulations to change note 
lengths where the performance practice required it (short quarter 
notes, in my case.) This idea might be useful to you if you have to do 
this often.


You mean you *don't* normally put articulations on *all* quarter notes 
(in a swing style)?


I have never had good results leaving jazz quarter notes up to chance.  
They are all marked either staccato or tenuto (or, of course, ^ or >).


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY




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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:31 PM, John Bell wrote:



On 15 Jul 2005, at 04:18, Christopher Smith wrote:

It was only much later that I heard it applied to things, like "This 
hamburger sucks!" It became clear that the expression no longer meant 
what it used to mean, and just meant "bad".


Depends on context. "This vacuum cleaner really sucks" is surely an 
endorsement?




 Oh, you obfuscator, you!  8-)

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:15 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:15, Darcy James Argue wrote:


You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply
articulation dialog.

In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the articulation
you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you want.

I only wish note expressions worked like this too.


Yes, I know this perfectly well.

But it only works with CONTIGUOUS notes -- all the notes within the
drag area get the articulation applied.



If you hold down the Delete key (on a Mac, it might be Backspace on a 
PC) and click on or drag across some notes in the Articulation Tool, 
the articulations get deleted. You can use this if every 1st note needs 
a tenuto, while the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th need stacattos. Give EVERY note a 
staccato, then delete the first ones. Then add the tenutos. You could 
also do this for one measure, then set Mass Edit to copy only 
articulations, and drag and drop the measure everywhere else those 
articulations are needed.




Sibelius offers a really easy method for doing this with non-
contiguous notes.




Finale does too, with the Smart Find and Paint option. This might be 
too new for you (are you in Fin2003?)


Christopher

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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Does anyone know if MakeMusic is intending to provide finer control
over HP parameters than one finds in Finale 2005?



Under Human Playback Style in the advanced Playback window, select 
Custom. You can copy the settings from an existing style, and then edit 
as you like. I don't know how deep this is, as I've not spent a lot of 
time on it, but muck around a bit and let us know what you are able to 
do with it.


I know at least you can turn off "Interpret slurs", and maybe replace 
it with something you like better.


I had to create a playback file for my jazz ear training class, and I 
ended up adding a lot of non-printing articulations to change note 
lengths where the performance practice required it (short quarter 
notes, in my case.) This idea might be useful to you if you have to do 
this often.


Christopher

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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 23:18, Christopher Smith wrote:

> It was only much later that I heard it applied to things, like "This
> hamburger sucks!" It became clear that the expression no longer meant
> what it used to mean, and just meant "bad". I noticed a similar shift
> in meaning in the word "pansy", which now apparently means "not
> aggressive" or "gentle-natured" with no connection at all to my
> generation's association of the term with homosexuality.

That's the meaning I grew up with.

The term came into common usage while I was in high school (graduated 
in 1980). That is, when I started high school, no one was using it, 
but by the time I graduated, it was commonly used (and it still 
referred to fellatio exclusively).

I recently watched Mel Gibson in "The man without a face," which was 
set in 1969. The kids in the movie used "you suck" the way kids use 
it today, and it seemed very anachronistic to me (though I was only 7 
years old in 1969).

-- 
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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 04:18, Christopher Smith wrote:It was only much later that I heard it applied to things, like "This hamburger sucks!" It became clear that the _expression_ no longer meant what it used to mean, and just meant "bad". Depends on context. "This vacuum cleaner really sucks" is surely an endorsement?John___
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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Ah,  what I  do is create a finale file, which then, for playback,  
goes via my MIDI to my Roland J35 Keboard, thence to my stereo amp and 
speaker system,  whence I hear it. Sorry I didn't clarify that.


Dean

On Jul 14, 2005, at 11:44 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:




Dean M. Estabrook schrieb:
How does one access the smartmusic soundfount for playback (not 
through the internal speaker) with Mac Fin 04c?


Not sure how you mean. Where would the sound come out if not the 
internal speaker?


Johannes
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As a newly diagnosed diabetic,  self denial is now my ally,  exercise  
my master.


Dean M. Estabrook

Retired Church Musician
Composer, Arranger
Adjudicator
Amateur Golfer



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Re: [Finale] USB MIDI Interface (was: Sibelius version 4 has dynamic score/parts linking!)

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:48, Christopher Smith wrote:

> While thinking about this, I came to the hypothesis that one of the
> first replies here (David, was that you?) was correct; that the MIDI
> may be time stamped, but the keyboard input is not; it is just read in
> the order that the keys are pressed and held in a buffer until such
> time as it can be taken and applied. So if my computer gets
> bottle-necked on some housekeeping task (like redrawing the screen)
> then it just forgets about the carefully time-stamped MIDI input that
> happened eons ago (in its mind) and goes on with the "Important" tasks
> fed into it by the QWERTY keyboard, completely uncoordinated with the
> MIDI.

Surely for a data bus that is assumed to have multiple devices using 
it, *all* data has to be time-stamped in some fashion.

If not, then that means that nobody using a USB QWERTY keyboard with 
a USB MIDI interface would be having success, since it would mean 
that there's no way for USB to appropriate serialize events generated 
by different devices destined for the same software process.

I've never been impressed with USB, though I use it a lot (I have a 
three devices attached to my PC and four attached to a USB hub). I 
just don't use it for more than one time sensitve task (my mouse, 
which is plugged directly into one of the PC's USB ports). 

-- 
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 19:25, Tyler Turner wrote:

> --- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Well, that's a feature I'd never seen before, but it
> > seems to me that 
> > it hardly relates at all to the scenario I outlined.
> > 
> > First off, it only works for copying from existing
> > music to music 
> > that is similar. Useful as that is, it is completely
> > orthogonal to 
> > the problem I was describing.
> > 
> > Yes, if I had many measures of da-yat-dit-dit I
> > could set up one 
> > measure and the copy to all other measures that I
> > wanted the same 
> > articulation. I could also do that with simply mass
> > copying 
> > restricted to articulations and slurs.
> 
> Mass copying articulations and slurs doesn't cover the
> major functionality of SmartFind and Paint. SmartFind
> and Paint looks for exact rhythmic matches. This means
> you can set your source, highlight a large area (such
> as the entire score), and apply the paste - it only
> pastes onto exact rhythm matches.

I didn't say it was the same, only that it didn't help accomplish the 
task I was saying Sibelius made easier.

I don't yet see anything about the Smartfind and Paint functionality 
that would make it into something I'd ever use, as exact repetition 
of this nature is not something that the music I work with uses very 
often. And in my piano quartets, I couldn't use it because I'm 
reproducing sources, so at the time I'm entering I don't know that I 
could be copying a corresponding passage from somewhere else.

> > But none of those speed up the setup of the original
> > measure. If it's 
> > got two da-yat-dit-dit's in it, in Sibelius, I can
> > ctrl-click the 
> > 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th noteheads and apply the
> > stacatto. I can't do 
> > this in Finale without two steps. 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand. In Finale, you wouldn't
> select the notes first. You'd just hold down the
> articulation metatool and click the notes or drag
> select regions at a time, right? No matter what it
> seems like Sibelius has at least one extra step -
> after selecting you press the keypad key at least once
> (assuming the articulation is on the current keypad).

Well, I don't see much difference. One can shift drag in Sibelius to 
select a sequence of notes and then just hit the key pad for the item 
you want to apply. And the selection remains selected so you can then 
add another attached item, if you like.

My point is that Finale only allows a range of notes. If you start on 
beat 1 and end on beat 3, beat 2 is included. Sibelius allows you to 
select beat 1 and beat 3 without selecting beat 2. This is a useful 
feature.

The number of keystrokes for a range of contiguous notes really is 
the same. The only difference is that you don't do the mouse drag and 
keystroke simultaneously. This isn't much of a difference in terms of 
the amount of time involved, and it has the advantage of allowing you 
to apply a second note-attached item.

But there is no non-contiguos selection in Finale. You have to do 
multiple selections to accomplish in Finale what I described above 
which, yes, requires mutiple mouse clicks to select, but that still 
ends up being easier than the Finale method.

I also find that I have some problems with defining the selection 
area in Finale and sometimes miss the first note in a passage I'm 
trying to select.

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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 10:05 PM, dhbailey wrote:


Raymond Horton wrote:


On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Okay, what's the term for words which are originally antonyms but 
which in certain situations mean the same thing?


Example:  Cool, HotThat's really cool!  That's really hot!  
(both meaning essentially "that's really phat!")  ;-)




Or, "That band really sucks!" "That band really blows!"

(But only in a rock/pop context. In a jazz context, "That band 
really blows" means it improvises with extraordinary creativity and 
group sensitivity.)


8-)

Christopher

In the original, non-musical meaning of the two words, suck and blow 
mean the same thing, and neither is a really accurate description of 
the act, but at least the former implies the correct direction.


I don't think what you are hinting at are the original non-musical 
meanings of those two words.





Hmm, OK. Time for some slang etymology here.

When I was a boy, the term "suck" as in "You suck!" was only applied to 
people, and in fact only to males, and usually to their performance in 
sports. The term was quite homophobic, in fact, implying that instead 
of getting in and playing the sport like a man, they were being 
"fairies" (not my term!) and letting themselves be dominated by the MEN 
who were playing well. The meaning of the term was quite clear to me 
and everyone else, as it was substituted quite often by other taunts of 
the same nature.


It was only much later that I heard it applied to things, like "This 
hamburger sucks!" It became clear that the expression no longer meant 
what it used to mean, and just meant "bad". I noticed a similar shift 
in meaning in the word "pansy", which now apparently means "not 
aggressive" or "gentle-natured" with no connection at all to my 
generation's association of the term with homosexuality. It was freely 
thrown around in the children's film "Madagascar" that I just took my 
kids to this week, for crying out loud!


Maybe fifteen years ago I first heard "blows" meaning bad. It was 
around the time that the expression "blowing chunks" (for throwing up) 
gained popularity, and often the two were interchanged. "That team 
blows chunks!" would be freely interchanged with "That team blows!" Of 
course, now it just means "bad." Note there is no connection with 
"sucks" that is immediately apparent to today's generation, just as 
there is no connection between "phat" and "fat".


By contrast, in the jazz world "blow" has meant "improvise" for at 
least eighty years, and maybe more. It also applies equally to non-wind 
instruments, which caused me to giggle immoderately my first week in 
music school when the teacher said, "OK, the guitar will blow first, 
then the piano will take the next blow."


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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 03:53, dhbailey wrote:But they list the Jazz & Big Band Collection for sale (I was terribly wrong about the price -- it's a whopping $259 dollars more, and that's a special deal for Finale users!) so they could include a tickler about how they'll be releasing an update patch of the included GPO soundset to include an Alto Sax, Tenor Sax and Baritone Sax, when they are released.  But there's no mention of that, so those of us who are active in the band world need to make this a $349 upgrade to get what the orchestra-centric Finale users get for $99.  If there's a fairness in this I fail to see it. I agree that this is unfair. But if MakeMusic were to wait until all GPO's sounds were available to Finale users at the same price, some people would be deprived of sounds that they can now get. Yes, it's an unfair world we live in, but I see no conspiracy.John___
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:15, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply 
> articulation dialog.
> 
> In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the articulation
> you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you want.
> 
> I only wish note expressions worked like this too.

Yes, I know this perfectly well.

But it only works with CONTIGUOUS notes -- all the notes within the 
drag area get the articulation applied.

Sibelius offers a really easy method for doing this with non-
contiguous notes.

(I assume that everyone knows what "contiguous" means, right? I used 
to have fits in my classes at NYU where students did not know the 
meaning of the word "adjacent" and were too shy to ask!)

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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 22:10, Rich Caldwell wrote:

> I wish I could use expression shapes along with HP.  I half-recall 
> reading that it is possible now (???), but it simply doesn't work for 
> me at all.

I only know HP from the Finale 2005 demo, but I was quite easily able 
to tell HP to incorporate all performance data into the file.

However, I did eventually turn of HP's adjustments to note durations, 
as it was just too awful. Here's two examples:

1. the non-legato for non-slurred notes was much too short, more like 
a portato.

2. it can't deal properly with stacatto notes under a slur, having 
only one way to play slurred notes (the last note of the slur 
shortened, the previous notes of the slur lengthened).

I really did like the implementation of meter-based accentuation, and 
overall found it pretty impressive. I just wish it were possible to 
turn off particular parameters.

Does anyone know if MakeMusic is intending to provide finer control 
over HP parameters than one finds in Finale 2005?

And, ACK, why does everything have REVERB turned up so high? Reverb 
doesn't improve synthesized sound at all -- just makes it harder to 
hear! I quickly adjusted that to turn it off!

-- 
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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[dhbailey]

John Bell wrote:



On 15 Jul 2005, at 03:04, dhbailey wrote:

Oh, definitely for me!  I relish the thought of having to pay another 
$150 or so to get the sounds of an instrument which it is unthinkable 
to leave out of a quite large share of the composition/engraving 
field, namely Concert Band, to say nothing about Jazz Band or Marching 
Band.



Since much of that music goes to the educational market, though, 
perhaps this is just Finale's way of saying, "We know we've lost the 
educational market, so anybody who could write anything for it can go 
take a hike!"




No, it's simply that GPO doesn't have saxophones, and that is, I agree, 
a serious lack. The Jazz & Big Band Collection, which does of course 
have saxophones, has not yet been released. You can't blame MakeMusic 
for excluding instruments that are not available.

John


But they list the Jazz & Big Band Collection for sale (I was terribly 
wrong about the price -- it's a whopping $259 dollars more, and that's a 
special deal for Finale users!) so they could include a tickler about 
how they'll be releasing an update patch of the included GPO soundset to 
include an Alto Sax, Tenor Sax and Baritone Sax, when they are released.


But there's no mention of that, so those of us who are active in the 
band world need to make this a $349 upgrade to get what the 
orchestra-centric Finale users get for $99.  If there's a fairness in 
this I fail to see it.


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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[Tyler Turner]

--- dhbailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> John Wyman wrote:
> 
> > I talked with a rep at MakeMusic yesterday about
> the absence of 
> > saxophones in the GPO set that come with 2006.
> There will be none in the 
> > full version of GPO either, for saxophones one
> must purchase the jazz 
> > GPO package. 
> > 
> > Can this be a blessing in disguise?
> > 
> 
> Oh, definitely for me!  I relish the thought of
> having to pay another 
> $150 or so to get the sounds of an instrument which
> it is unthinkable to 
> leave out of a quite large share of the
> composition/engraving field, 
> namely Concert Band, to say nothing about Jazz Band
> or Marching Band.
> 
> Since much of that music goes to the educational
> market, though, perhaps 
> this is just Finale's way of saying, "We know we've
> lost the educational 
> market, so anybody who could write anything for it
> can go take a hike!"
> 
> What a wonderful thing MakeMusic (and GPO, those
> darlings!) have done 
> for us all by giving us an orchestra-centric sound
> set, as if the 
> orchestra is still a vibrant compositional medium or
> something while 
> bands are dead as doornails and nobody every writes
> for them anymore.
> 
> I wonder what moved them to include saxophones in
> their soundfonts?
> 
> Blessing?  You bet -- for Sibelius!
> 

Sibelius ships with Kontakt Silver, which includes 20
sounds. You can use 8 at a time. This makes covering
large ensembles of any sort simply impossible.

Finale GPO doesn't have saxophones, but at least the
Finale softsynth does (although you can NOT use these
concurrently - you'll have to record them separately
and mix them). To list the instruments Sibelius Silver
has that Finale GPO does not: tenor sax, voice oohs
and ahs, guitar. To list the instruments Finale GPO
has that Sibelius Kontakt Silver does not, piccolo,
english horn, bass clarinet, contra bassoon, tuba,
marimba, xylophone, harpsichord, solo violin, solo
viola, solo cello, solo bass, violin section, viola
section, cello section, bass section, tremolo strings
(solo and section). Neither library has soprano, alto,
or bari saxes.

For people who are really serious about getting good
sounds for Finale, they will very soon have the option
of GPO Advanced. That includes a ton of new
instruments, including your euphonium and classical
saxes.

For the moment, Finale is leagues ahead of Sibelius in
terms of playback.

Tyler





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Re: [Finale] USB MIDI Interface (was: Sibelius version 4 has dynamic score/parts linking!)

[Christopher Smith]

There's another reason it wouldn't work; the MIDI interface is powered 
off the USB bus, and takes pretty much the full 500 ma current draw 
that the port supplies (if you can read the printout I sent last 
message, the draw and supply are listed.) Add in the 100 ma for the 
wireless mouse receiver and 250 ma for the keyboard itself, and the 
poor USB bus would be completely overloaded. I've heard about expensive 
repairs involving this, so I won't experiment. I was also warned to 
plug it directly into the computer, not into an external hub, unless 
the hub was separately powered.


While thinking about this, I came to the hypothesis that one of the 
first replies here (David, was that you?) was correct; that the MIDI 
may be time stamped, but the keyboard input is not; it is just read in 
the order that the keys are pressed and held in a buffer until such 
time as it can be taken and applied. So if my computer gets 
bottle-necked on some housekeeping task (like redrawing the screen) 
then it just forgets about the carefully time-stamped MIDI input that 
happened eons ago (in its mind) and goes on with the "Important" tasks 
fed into it by the QWERTY keyboard, completely uncoordinated with the 
MIDI.


(On the same subject, my first computer, an 8 mHz Atari ST with 1 meg 
of RAM had FLAWLESS MIDI timing as a result of MIDI being built into 
the OS as well as being built in to the computer itself. My present 
computer has a clock speed 100 times faster and computational power far 
beyond even that, but not as steady on the MIDI. Go figure!)


This may also be related to the general slowdowns reported by some on 
Mac, when the computer has been running for a long time, especially if 
some apps have memory leaks, like Safari is reported to have. Like I 
said at the beginning, I don't ALWAYS outrun my computer when Speedy 
entering; only sometimes, and those times may very well be when I have 
a lot going on at once, and Safari has been running for a week or so, 
and I haven't rebooted recently, etc., you get the idea. I just never 
thought to look for that before. Now I will look for it.


Christopher



On Jul 14, 2005, at 9:25 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Hi David,

That probably wouldn't work.  IIRC, the USB port on the Apple keyboard 
is only designed to take 1.5 Mb/s devices (like a mouse).


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 14 Jul 2005, at 8:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:31, Christopher Smith wrote:


I don't have a hub. All I have (right now) is my MIDI interface
plugged into one of the two available USB ports in the back of the 
Mac

G4, and my keyboard plugged into the USB port for that purpose on the
back of my Apple Cinema Display. There are two USB ports on the
keyboard; my mouse is plugged into one of them. The keyboard USB 
cable

is too short to plug into the computer directly without an extension,
unless the computer is on the table beside me (crappy design, IMHO).


Have you tried plugging the MIDI adaptor into the keyboard hub? I'm
assuming there's more than one port on it (you're already using one
for the mouse).

That would mean that both signals would be coming from the same
device, over the same cord.

If you've got an unsed port on the keyboard, it might be worth a try!

--
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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[John Bell]

You leave it undefined. That's HP's job. It's supposed
to look for the word accel (or variations of it) and
then look forward to the next tempo marking (if any)
to determine the tempo curve. If it doesn't do that,
report it on the Finale forum as a bug for Robert and
send it into customer support.

I set up a test with note expressions just now and it
worked fine. It should also work with measure
expressions.




Thanks Tyler, I will try this tomorrow. If it works I'm really  
impressed. I mean really really impressed.

John




PS: I didn't wait till tomorrow. I use GPO and have HP Style set to  
"Optimize for GPO". The accel didn't work. So I went to HP  
Preferences and changed "Tempo:"  to "HP(incorporate data)". It now  
works perfectly!


I have been using Finale for years and am still discovering  
untrumpeted features that are so very good.

John

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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 03:04, dhbailey wrote:Oh, definitely for me!  I relish the thought of having to pay another $150 or so to get the sounds of an instrument which it is unthinkable to leave out of a quite large share of the composition/engraving field, namely Concert Band, to say nothing about Jazz Band or Marching Band.  Since much of that music goes to the educational market, though, perhaps this is just Finale's way of saying, "We know we've lost the educational market, so anybody who could write anything for it can go take a hike!" No, it's simply that GPO doesn't have saxophones, and that is, I agree, a serious lack. The Jazz & Big Band Collection, which does of course have saxophones, has not yet been released. You can't blame MakeMusic for excluding instruments that are not available.John___
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Well, that's a feature I'd never seen before, but it
> seems to me that 
> it hardly relates at all to the scenario I outlined.
> 
> First off, it only works for copying from existing
> music to music 
> that is similar. Useful as that is, it is completely
> orthogonal to 
> the problem I was describing.
> 
> Yes, if I had many measures of da-yat-dit-dit I
> could set up one 
> measure and the copy to all other measures that I
> wanted the same 
> articulation. I could also do that with simply mass
> copying 
> restricted to articulations and slurs.

Mass copying articulations and slurs doesn't cover the
major functionality of SmartFind and Paint. SmartFind
and Paint looks for exact rhythmic matches. This means
you can set your source, highlight a large area (such
as the entire score), and apply the paste - it only
pastes onto exact rhythm matches.
> 
> But none of those speed up the setup of the original
> measure. If it's 
> got two da-yat-dit-dit's in it, in Sibelius, I can
> ctrl-click the 
> 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th noteheads and apply the
> stacatto. I can't do 
> this in Finale without two steps. 

I'm not sure I understand. In Finale, you wouldn't
select the notes first. You'd just hold down the
articulation metatool and click the notes or drag
select regions at a time, right? No matter what it
seems like Sibelius has at least one extra step -
after selecting you press the keypad key at least once
(assuming the articulation is on the current keypad).

Tyler




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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[dhbailey]

John Bell wrote:



On 15 Jul 2005, at 00:45, Tyler Turner wrote:


Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just make
sure to have an expression at the end set to the
desired target tempo, and put the accel expression
where you want it to start.



I don't understand how to do this. Target tempo, OK, but how do I define 
the accel expression so that it will trigger the accelerando? 



With human playback you don't need to.  It recognizes what to do when it 
sees accel., just as it knows what to do when it sees Tr for a trill.


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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 10:04 PM, dhbailey wrote:


John Wyman wrote:

I talked with a rep at MakeMusic yesterday about the absence of 
saxophones in the GPO set that come with 2006. There will be none in 
the full version of GPO either, for saxophones one must purchase the 
jazz GPO package. Can this be a blessing in disguise?


Oh, definitely for me!  I relish the thought of having to pay another 
$150 or so to get the sounds of an instrument which it is unthinkable 
to leave out of a quite large share of the composition/engraving 
field, namely Concert Band, to say nothing about Jazz Band or Marching 
Band.


Saxophones are in the SoundFont.  Just not the included GPO lite.  I'm 
sure they would have liked to included them, but GPO Jazz/Big Band is 
not available yet.


Also, the list of GPO instruments included in Fin2k6 is far more 
comprehensive than the instruments Sibelius provides, period.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Staff Name Font

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 10:16 PM, dhbailey wrote:


Can't you use the Swap Fonts function?


No.


Or does that do it for every instance of a given font in a file?


Yes.

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Re: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[dhbailey]

Lee Actor wrote:
[snip]

Something that bothers me is when Finale combines rests on a partial measure
copy.  For example, if I copy a beat consisting of two 16th notes
surrounding two 16th rests, Finale will combine the rests into a single 8th
rest.  This annoying behavior doesn't occur when copying full instead of
partial measures, though.  It would be nice to be able to do an exact copy
of partial measures.

[snip]

I believe there is a "soften syncopations" setting in the quantization 
settings which affects such behavior.  If it's currently checked, try 
unchecking it, and vice-versa.  I can never remember which setting is 
the one to fix what you are mentioning.


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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[James E. Bailey]

I think the word is "slang"
Am 14.07.2005 um 19:05 schrieb dhbailey:


Raymond Horton wrote:


Joel Sears wrote:
In a jazz context, "That band really sucks" means a band that's so 
bad

it can't blow. No other meaning.

Joel Sears


On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Okay, what's the term for words which are originally antonyms but 
which in certain situations mean the same thing?


Example:  Cool, HotThat's really cool!  That's really hot!  
(both meaning essentially "that's really phat!")  ;-)




Or, "That band really sucks!" "That band really blows!"

(But only in a rock/pop context. In a jazz context, "That band 
really blows" means it improvises with extraordinary creativity and 
group sensitivity.)


8-)

Christopher

In the original, non-musical meaning of the two words, suck and blow 
mean the same thing, and neither is a really accurate description of 
the act, but at least the former implies the correct direction.


I don't think what you are hinting at are the original non-musical 
meanings of those two words.


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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[dhbailey]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:




Dean M. Estabrook schrieb:

How does one access the smartmusic soundfount for playback (not 
through the internal speaker) with Mac Fin 04c?



Not sure how you mean. Where would the sound come out if not the 
internal speaker?


Johannes


The line-out jack.

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Re: [Finale] Staff Name Font

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:


How do I change the font for all existing staff names simultaneously?

Changing the default font only affects newly created staff names, not 
the ones already entered.


- Darcy
-
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Can't you use the Swap Fonts function?  Or does that do it for every 
instance of a given font in a file?


The other option is to petition MakeMusic to give us an option 
(checkbox?) when we change the default font (or any default setting) 
labeled: Apply To Data Already Entered?  If we check it, it does the 
font swapping, measurement changing, appearance altering for us of all 
the similar things we have already entered.  If we leave it unchecked, 
it leaves the already-entered stuff alone and only affects newly entered 
stuff.


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Re: [Finale] Anyone else have playback issues on FinMac 2005?

[James E. Bailey]

Gosh, I was going to write, I have the same problem finmac2k4. I 
thought it was because I have first gen harman kardon soundsticks, but 
maybe not. I guess I'll just go back to not worrying about it.


Am 14.07.2005 um 15:39 schrieb Stephen Peters:


Lately my FinMac 2005b installation has seriously been acting up when
it comes to playback.  After running for a while, it will suddenly
decide to stop playing anything, either when I hit play or use
Opt-Space-Drag to listen to a preview.  During playback, the little
green bar will move across the page as if it were playing, but no
sound comes out.

That's using Quicktime playback, and it will usually come back if I
quit the program and restart it.  Sometime about a week ago Softsynth
playback stopped for me totally, for no apparent reason.  Same
symptoms; Finale thinks it's playing, but no sound.  Restarting
doesn't seem to change that at all.

Anyone else having these issues, or know of a workaround?

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

David,

You don't have to use partial measure selection, *or* the apply 
articulation dialog.


In the articulation tool, hold down the metatool for the articulation 
you want, and then just drag enclose the notes you want.


I only wish note expressions worked like this too.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 14 Jul 2005, at 9:54 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005 at 18:31, Tyler Turner wrote:


--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Yes, I don't find this at all difficult in the
Sibelius 4 demo. I can
select and entire measure and apply an articulation
to all notes. Of
I can click a note and then shift-click any
additional notes, then
apply an articulation.

This latter allows non-contiguous selection, which
would be quite
useful to me in many cases. Yes, Finale allows you
to apply
articulations to a particular rhythmic value, but I
often need to
apply to some notes of a uniform rhythmic value
(such as a da-yat-dit-
dit pattern in 8th notes).

Sibelius actually makes this much more flexible and
easy than Finale.


I get quite a bit of use out of SmartFind and Paint
for this type of thing.


???

Well, that's a feature I'd never seen before, but it seems to me that
it hardly relates at all to the scenario I outlined.

First off, it only works for copying from existing music to music
that is similar. Useful as that is, it is completely orthogonal to
the problem I was describing.

Yes, if I had many measures of da-yat-dit-dit I could set up one
measure and the copy to all other measures that I wanted the same
articulation. I could also do that with simply mass copying
restricted to articulations and slurs.

But none of those speed up the setup of the original measure. If it's
got two da-yat-dit-dit's in it, in Sibelius, I can ctrl-click the
2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th noteheads and apply the stacatto. I can't do
this in Finale without two steps. Of course, if I have multiple
homorhythmic staves one above the other with the same articulation, I
can select 2 & 3, and do it for all the staves, and apply the
articulation, then select 7 & 8 for the same set of staves and apply
the articulation.

So, that's something that likely Sibelius can't do without a copy
operation, or with fussy Ctrl-click mousing.

But it's only an advantage for homorhythmic passages in multiple
parts. The Sibelius non-contiguous note selection behavior is much
more user-friendly, in my opinion, than Finale's partial measure
selection, which I've never found very useful (because I can never
quite predict which subdivisions I'm allowed to select, and how to
get the particular partial measure selected that I need).

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Re: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[dhbailey]

Ken Moore wrote:


"David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote

I wish there were a number of things that could be locked and not 
changed:




1. manual spacing




2. cautionary accidentals




3. manual beaming breaks



All of these edits, despite my having explicitly told Finale I want to 
override the defaults, are volatile and get blown away by the simplest 
changes. Numbers 2 & 3 really oughtn't get overriden at all, and your 
request, for the ability to lock a measure's spacing, would be a very 
good thing. If that were combined with the addition of a spacing 
metatool keyboard modifier to force-override that locked spacing (such 
as ctrl-4), that would be even better.



Not quite the same, but reading this reminded me of it: I use dotted
quarter rests in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, because I think it makes it easier
to see where the beats are. Whenever I copy a measure, Finale turns each
of these into a quarter plus an eighth. This is just what I would expect
Sibelius to do (:-)> but is there somewhere that I can tell Finale to
believe me?


In the quantization settings (perhaps in the More Options button) there 
is a "Use Dotted Rests" checkbox.


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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[dhbailey]

Aaron Sherber wrote:


At 02:06 PM 07/14/2005, David W. Fenton wrote:
 >Back in the Randy Stokes days, we had somebody like that, but who
 >also was one of the programmers and could give technical explanations
 >for problems. Boy, but I do miss Randy. Having him around really
 >increased my confidence in Finale.
 >
 >And it seems that back in the days when he worked for Coda was the
 >period of the greatest improvement for Finale. Since his departure,
 >not much has happened to Finale except the bundling of more and more
 >bells and whistles, with the reworking of only a couple major
 >engraving problems.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] is still subscribed to this list. Why do you say 
that Randy has left Coda? (Just curious.)




I recall him telling us that, I think.  Maybe he was taken off the 
Finale team and placed on the SmartMusic team.


In any event he's not a contributor to this list at all, and in the old 
days David Fenton was referring to, he was a regular contributor to this 
list (in an unofficial capacity) and he took the time to explain things 
such as programming problems in solving issues, and occasionally with an 
off-list post to confirm or shoot down something I had speculated about 
on-list.


Allen Fisher is on-list and occasionally chimes in, but I get the 
impression that his time at work is spent on coding issues and he 
doesn't have the energy or the time to post much in his off-duty hours 
(I can't say I blame him.)


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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[Rich Caldwell]

I've had mixed success with accel. & rit. markings.  Sometimes it  
works fairly well.  Other times, it does nothing.  Most of the time,  
it doesn't make a smooth transition from one tempo to the new  
tempo.   Perhaps it doesn't work well over short distances (2  
measures or less?), with changes that are too subtle or too extreme,  
or generally with more complex music?   I haven't found a pattern -  
like with most of the HP bugs - which might explain why they haven't  
been fixed.


I wish I could use expression shapes along with HP.  I half-recall  
reading that it is possible now (???), but it simply doesn't work for  
me at all.


Back with FinMac2004, I started communication with MM about playback  
issues, but quickly began to realize I was spending more time testing  
their software rather than using it for my own productivity.


Rich

On Jul 14, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Tyler Turner wrote:

--- John Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 15 Jul 2005, at 00:45, Tyler Turner wrote:



Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just


make


sure to have an expression at the end set to the
desired target tempo, and put the accel expression
where you want it to start.



I don't understand how to do this. Target tempo, OK,
but how do I
define the accel expression so that it will trigger
the accelerando?

John>


___


You leave it undefined. That's HP's job. It's supposed
to look for the word accel (or variations of it) and
then look forward to the next tempo marking (if any)
to determine the tempo curve. If it doesn't do that,
report it on the Finale forum as a bug for Robert and
send it into customer support.

I set up a test with note expressions just now and it
worked fine. It should also work with measure
expressions.

Tyler


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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[dhbailey]

Raymond Horton wrote:


Joel Sears wrote:


In a jazz context, "That band really sucks" means a band that's so bad
it can't blow. No other meaning.

Joel Sears


On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:
 

Okay, what's the term for words which are originally antonyms but 
which in certain situations mean the same thing?


Example:  Cool, HotThat's really cool!  That's really hot!  (both 
meaning essentially "that's really phat!")  ;-)
   



Or, "That band really sucks!" "That band really blows!"

(But only in a rock/pop context. In a jazz context, "That band really 
blows" means it improvises with extraordinary creativity and group 
sensitivity.)


8-)

Christopher
 

In the original, non-musical meaning of the two words, suck and blow 
mean the same thing, and neither is a really accurate description of the 
act, but at least the former implies the correct direction.




I don't think what you are hinting at are the original non-musical 
meanings of those two words.


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Re: [Finale] 2006/GPO

[dhbailey]

John Wyman wrote:

I talked with a rep at MakeMusic yesterday about the absence of 
saxophones in the GPO set that come with 2006. There will be none in the 
full version of GPO either, for saxophones one must purchase the jazz 
GPO package. 


Can this be a blessing in disguise?



Oh, definitely for me!  I relish the thought of having to pay another 
$150 or so to get the sounds of an instrument which it is unthinkable to 
leave out of a quite large share of the composition/engraving field, 
namely Concert Band, to say nothing about Jazz Band or Marching Band.


Since much of that music goes to the educational market, though, perhaps 
this is just Finale's way of saying, "We know we've lost the educational 
market, so anybody who could write anything for it can go take a hike!"


What a wonderful thing MakeMusic (and GPO, those darlings!) have done 
for us all by giving us an orchestra-centric sound set, as if the 
orchestra is still a vibrant compositional medium or something while 
bands are dead as doornails and nobody every writes for them anymore.


I wonder what moved them to include saxophones in their soundfonts?

Blessing?  You bet -- for Sibelius!


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Re: [Finale] Anyone else have playback issues on FinMac 2005?

[Rich Caldwell]

I had this problem when HP was introduced, and reported it, but it  
remains an issue in 2005 (Mac).  I have found no consistent way to  
get it to play.  I think it's merely chance, so I just keep hitting  
the play button until I get a pass that will play.  It'll happen, but  
it might take a few (or five) tries.


Maybe my issue is different from yours, since I always had it, QT or  
Softsynth.  Another annoyance I've had since HP is that once it  
starts playing, at a random moment all instruments get "stuck," as if  
they had sustain pedals depressed.  Instant organ!


Rich

On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Stephen Peters wrote:

Lately my FinMac 2005b installation has seriously been acting up when
it comes to playback.  After running for a while, it will suddenly
decide to stop playing anything, either when I hit play or use
Opt-Space-Drag to listen to a preview.  During playback, the little
green bar will move across the page as if it were playing, but no
sound comes out.

That's using Quicktime playback, and it will usually come back if I
quit the program and restart it.  Sometime about a week ago Softsynth
playback stopped for me totally, for no apparent reason.  Same
symptoms; Finale thinks it's playing, but no sound.  Restarting
doesn't seem to change that at all.

Anyone else having these issues, or know of a workaround?

--
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 18:31, Tyler Turner wrote:

> --- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I don't find this at all difficult in the
> > Sibelius 4 demo. I can 
> > select and entire measure and apply an articulation
> > to all notes. Of 
> > I can click a note and then shift-click any
> > additional notes, then 
> > apply an articulation.
> > 
> > This latter allows non-contiguous selection, which
> > would be quite 
> > useful to me in many cases. Yes, Finale allows you
> > to apply 
> > articulations to a particular rhythmic value, but I
> > often need to 
> > apply to some notes of a uniform rhythmic value
> > (such as a da-yat-dit-
> > dit pattern in 8th notes). 
> > 
> > Sibelius actually makes this much more flexible and
> > easy than Finale.
> 
> I get quite a bit of use out of SmartFind and Paint
> for this type of thing.

???

Well, that's a feature I'd never seen before, but it seems to me that 
it hardly relates at all to the scenario I outlined.

First off, it only works for copying from existing music to music 
that is similar. Useful as that is, it is completely orthogonal to 
the problem I was describing.

Yes, if I had many measures of da-yat-dit-dit I could set up one 
measure and the copy to all other measures that I wanted the same 
articulation. I could also do that with simply mass copying 
restricted to articulations and slurs.

But none of those speed up the setup of the original measure. If it's 
got two da-yat-dit-dit's in it, in Sibelius, I can ctrl-click the 
2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th noteheads and apply the stacatto. I can't do 
this in Finale without two steps. Of course, if I have multiple 
homorhythmic staves one above the other with the same articulation, I 
can select 2 & 3, and do it for all the staves, and apply the 
articulation, then select 7 & 8 for the same set of staves and apply 
the articulation.

So, that's something that likely Sibelius can't do without a copy 
operation, or with fussy Ctrl-click mousing.

But it's only an advantage for homorhythmic passages in multiple 
parts. The Sibelius non-contiguous note selection behavior is much 
more user-friendly, in my opinion, than Finale's partial measure 
selection, which I've never found very useful (because I can never 
quite predict which subdivisions I'm allowed to select, and how to 
get the particular partial measure selected that I need).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
All non-quoted content (c) David W. Fenton, all rights reserved

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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 02:28, Tyler Turner wrote:




--- John Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




On 15 Jul 2005, at 00:45, Tyler Turner wrote:



Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just


make


sure to have an expression at the end set to the
desired target tempo, and put the accel expression
where you want it to start.



I don't understand how to do this. Target tempo, OK,
but how do I
define the accel expression so that it will trigger
the accelerando?

John>


___


You leave it undefined. That's HP's job. It's supposed
to look for the word accel (or variations of it) and
then look forward to the next tempo marking (if any)
to determine the tempo curve. If it doesn't do that,
report it on the Finale forum as a bug for Robert and
send it into customer support.

I set up a test with note expressions just now and it
worked fine. It should also work with measure
expressions.


Thanks Tyler, I will try this tomorrow. If it works I'm really  
impressed. I mean really really impressed.

John
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Yes, I don't find this at all difficult in the
> Sibelius 4 demo. I can 
> select and entire measure and apply an articulation
> to all notes. Of 
> I can click a note and then shift-click any
> additional notes, then 
> apply an articulation.
> 
> This latter allows non-contiguous selection, which
> would be quite 
> useful to me in many cases. Yes, Finale allows you
> to apply 
> articulations to a particular rhythmic value, but I
> often need to 
> apply to some notes of a uniform rhythmic value
> (such as a da-yat-dit-
> dit pattern in 8th notes). 
> 
> Sibelius actually makes this much more flexible and
> easy than Finale.
> 
> -- 
> David W. Fenton   


I get quite a bit of use out of SmartFind and Paint
for this type of thing.

Tyler

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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[Tyler Turner]

--- John Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On 15 Jul 2005, at 00:45, Tyler Turner wrote:
> 
> > Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just
> make
> > sure to have an expression at the end set to the
> > desired target tempo, and put the accel expression
> > where you want it to start.
> 
> I don't understand how to do this. Target tempo, OK,
> but how do I  
> define the accel expression so that it will trigger
> the accelerando?
> 
> John>
___


You leave it undefined. That's HP's job. It's supposed
to look for the word accel (or variations of it) and
then look forward to the next tempo marking (if any)
to determine the tempo curve. If it doesn't do that,
report it on the Finale forum as a bug for Robert and
send it into customer support.

I set up a test with note expressions just now and it
worked fine. It should also work with measure
expressions.

Tyler



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Re: [Finale] USB MIDI Interface (was: Sibelius version 4 has dynamic score/parts linking!)

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi David,

That probably wouldn't work.  IIRC, the USB port on the Apple keyboard 
is only designed to take 1.5 Mb/s devices (like a mouse).


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


On 14 Jul 2005, at 8:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:31, Christopher Smith wrote:


I don't have a hub. All I have (right now) is my MIDI interface
plugged into one of the two available USB ports in the back of the Mac
G4, and my keyboard plugged into the USB port for that purpose on the
back of my Apple Cinema Display. There are two USB ports on the
keyboard; my mouse is plugged into one of them. The keyboard USB cable
is too short to plug into the computer directly without an extension,
unless the computer is on the table beside me (crappy design, IMHO).


Have you tried plugging the MIDI adaptor into the keyboard hub? I'm
assuming there's more than one port on it (you're already using one
for the mouse).

That would mean that both signals would be coming from the same
device, over the same cord.

If you've got an unsed port on the keyboard, it might be worth a try!

--
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 15 Jul 2005 at 1:25, Gerhard Torges, geb. Hölscher wrote:

> Am 14.07.2005 um 08:04 schrieb Darcy James Argue:
> 
> >>> 14 Clunky text selection for expressions etc.
> >>
> >> I assume this is a complaint about our word menu system (where you
> >> right-click during text input for a useful menu of terms to input
> >> into the score).  This is actually pretty flexible (e.g. you can
> >> create your own shortcuts both for text styles and for individual
> >> text items within those text styles), and Sibelius, for example,
> >> has *always* been able to mix fonts in text expressions, something
> >> which I understand Finale has only recently been able to do.
> >
> > My understanding is Sibelius still does not have any method of
> > expression entry that is as fast as Finale's context-sensitive
> > metatools.  And as Richard Yates discovered, entering articulations
> > is still much faster and more flexible using Finale's metatools. 
> > (Does Sibelius have anything to compare with Finale's "drag-enclose
> > notes while holding metatool key" method to assign an articulation
> > to multiple notes in multiple staves, all in one step?)
> 
> Hmm.
> Selecting several notes and then hitting "/" on the keypad is not what
> you want?

Yes, I don't find this at all difficult in the Sibelius 4 demo. I can 
select and entire measure and apply an articulation to all notes. Of 
I can click a note and then shift-click any additional notes, then 
apply an articulation.

This latter allows non-contiguous selection, which would be quite 
useful to me in many cases. Yes, Finale allows you to apply 
articulations to a particular rhythmic value, but I often need to 
apply to some notes of a uniform rhythmic value (such as a da-yat-dit-
dit pattern in 8th notes). 

Sibelius actually makes this much more flexible and easy than Finale.

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 02:11, David W. Fenton wrote:I would think that MakeMusic would want someone's job description to  include monitoring this list, in any case. There are too many heavy  hitters here to ignore, in my opinion. SecondedJohn___
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Re: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 21:39, Michael Cook wrote:

> I know this is annoying. Two things can help:
> 
> 1. If you make sure that you copy whole measures, with no partial
> measure selection, Finale should copy the measures exactly as you
> wrote them. 2. Go to Options > Quantization Settings and click on More
> Settings. Here you will find the option "Allow Dotted Rests", which
> (with a bit of luck) should allow you to copy partial measures and
> keep the dotted rests.

Well, that's great that it can be done, but exactly why does Finale 
re-quantize the music you're copying when it's copying to a 
destination with the exact same meter as the source?

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 12:15, Tyler Turner wrote:

> I'll be honest. When I was working as an employee of
> MakeMusic, I tried to keep up with this list so I
> could comment when needed. But boy, there are so many
> e-mails going through here every day that keeping up
> here meant not being able to keep up with my regular
> duties to e-mails, phone calls and the official forum.
> Part of the nice thing about the forum is that the
> organization into threads makes it much easier to
> browse through and quickly see where your input is
> beneficial and skip over the stuff where you aren't needed.

I hear you, but there are options to make things work better, such as 
using an email client for the account you use to subscribe to the 
Finale list that can thread email messages.

For instance, gmail defaults to a threaded view.

Another thing that could be done is that MakeMusic could set up a 
local Usenet server, and use any one of many different mail-to-news 
converters so that you could use a thread newsreader to browse the 
list. That would also give MakeMusic the ability to refer to the 
discussions of a dedicated portion of their user population.

It's not that difficult to set up, and it's very easy to use, and 
would provide a resource for monitoring user opinion and needs.

I would think that MakeMusic would want someone's job description to 
include monitoring this list, in any case. There are too many heavy 
hitters here to ignore, in my opinion.

But it's their business, and if they want to miss such an 
opportunity, then that's their choice.

-- 
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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[John Bell]

On 15 Jul 2005, at 00:45, Tyler Turner wrote:Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just makesure to have an _expression_ at the end set to thedesired target tempo, and put the accel _expression_where you want it to start.I don't understand how to do this. Target tempo, OK, but how do I define the accel _expression_ so that it will trigger the accelerando? John___
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:37, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> When Sib3 first came out, there was a discussion on this list of the
> effectively instantaneous graphics-card assisted redraw.  Several PC
> users downloaded the demo and reported the same results.

Um, the Sibelius 3 demo is FINE on my PC -- perfectly usable in terms 
of redraw and UI responsiveness.

It's Sibelius *4* that is the problem.

And Ken reported similar redraw problems on the slower of his PCs (an 
866MHz machine).

-- 
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:37, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> On 14 Jul 2005, at 2:18 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> >> That's because Finale doesn't use OpenGL-enhanced drawing.
> >>
> >> If you have an OpenGL-compatible video card, drawing in Sib 3 is
> >> virtually instantaneous, and drawing in Sib 4 is still very good.
> >> (There are some slowdowns when you have to actually adjust things,
> >> but just dragging or scrolling the music is very speedy.)
> >
> > Darcy, how would you know what the redraw is like on a PC?
> 
> When Sib3 first came out, there was a discussion on this list of the
> effectively instantaneous graphics-card assisted redraw.  Several PC
> users downloaded the demo and reported the same results.

I wonder if Ken's 866MHz PC has an OpenGL graphics card with 32MBs or 
more?

> If you don't have a graphics card that is compatible with Sib's OpenGL
> drawing, then of course redraw will be slower, because it can't be
> offloaded to the graphics card.  That's true no matter which platform
> you are using.

Well, as long as I'm poor and can't afford to upgrade my whole PC 
setup, I wouldn't be able to use Sibelius.

At this point, I wouldn't choose to do so, anyway.

By the time Finale loses the market to Sibelius (which I think it 
will, unless something drastic happens to the direction Finale is 
going in), I'll probably be able to afford a new PC.

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:36, Aaron Sherber wrote:

> At 02:06 PM 07/14/2005, David W. Fenton wrote:
>  >Back in the Randy Stokes days, we had somebody like that, but who
>  >also was one of the programmers and could give technical
>  explanations >for problems. Boy, but I do miss Randy. Having him
>  around really >increased my confidence in Finale. > >And it seems
>  that back in the days when he worked for Coda was the >period of the
>  greatest improvement for Finale. Since his departure, >not much has
>  happened to Finale except the bundling of more and more >bells and
>  whistles, with the reworking of only a couple major >engraving
>  problems. 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] is still subscribed to this list. Why do you say
> that Randy has left Coda? (Just curious.)

I had a foggy memory of his having told the list exactly that! I 
guess I'm wrong.

Too bad he has curtailed the marvelous participation that used to be 
his norm. Perhaps we were too hard on him! :(

-- 
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David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Re: [Finale] USB MIDI Interface (was: Sibelius version 4 has dynamic score/parts linking!)

[David W. Fenton]

On 14 Jul 2005 at 14:31, Christopher Smith wrote:

> I don't have a hub. All I have (right now) is my MIDI interface
> plugged into one of the two available USB ports in the back of the Mac
> G4, and my keyboard plugged into the USB port for that purpose on the
> back of my Apple Cinema Display. There are two USB ports on the
> keyboard; my mouse is plugged into one of them. The keyboard USB cable
> is too short to plug into the computer directly without an extension,
> unless the computer is on the table beside me (crappy design, IMHO).

Have you tried plugging the MIDI adaptor into the keyboard hub? I'm 
assuming there's more than one port on it (you're already using one 
for the mouse).

That would mean that both signals would be coming from the same 
device, over the same cord.

If you've got an unsed port on the keyboard, it might be worth a try!

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
All non-quoted content (c) David W. Fenton, all rights reserved

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Re: [Finale] Is this a Finale or Sibelius list?

[dhbailey]

Colin Broom wrote:
[snip]> I'd be interested in hearing more about Finale in education 
elsewhere.
I've always had this (probably largely unfounded) idea that Finale is 
for the most part still the prominent product in the States, is this true?


The brand new high school plus the rebuilt older high school (so we now 
have two complete 4-year high schools) both have Sibelius on the music 
computers at school.


--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "Gerhard Torges, geb. Hölscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hello Tyler,
> 
> Am 14.07.2005 um 21:15 schrieb Tyler Turner:
> 
> > Part of the nice thing about the forum is that the
> > organization into threads makes it much easier to
> > browse through and quickly see where your input is
> > beneficial and skip over the stuff where you
> aren't needed.
> 
> You can get the threaded view using a proper mail
> client.
> 
> 
> Gerhard
> 

Thanks. Yes, I've looked into this some in the past,
but it's a bit of a hassle to do it with my free Yahoo
account, and the free software that's available for
doing it is from what I understand pretty buggy. It
would also make it impossible for me to access my old
yahoo messages on multiple computers, so in the end
it's not worth it to me.

Tyler


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Re: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[Tyler Turner]

Human Playback usually does it pretty well. Just make
sure to have an expression at the end set to the
desired target tempo, and put the accel expression
where you want it to start.

Tyler

--- Darcy James Argue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ever since the unfortunate demise of JW Tempo for
> Mac, I've been 
> looking for an easy way to tell Finale "Change
> smoothly from q=X to q=Y 
> over Z number of measures."
> 
> I know tempo improvements are coming in Fin2k6, but
> is there any *easy* 
> way to do this in FinMac2k5?
> 
> (And just in case, using shape expressions = NOT
> EASY, unless you have 
> developed some painless method you'd like to share.)
> 
> - Darcy
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 
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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Gerhard Torges, geb. Hölscher]

Hello Darcy,

Am 14.07.2005 um 08:04 schrieb Darcy James Argue:


14 Clunky text selection for expressions etc.


I assume this is a complaint about our word menu system (where you 
right-click during text input for a useful menu of terms to input 
into the score).  This is actually pretty flexible (e.g. you can 
create your own shortcuts both for text styles and for individual 
text items within those text styles), and Sibelius, for example, has 
*always* been able to mix fonts in text expressions, something which 
I understand Finale has only recently been able to do.


My understanding is Sibelius still does not have any method of 
expression entry that is as fast as Finale's context-sensitive 
metatools.  And as Richard Yates discovered, entering articulations is 
still much faster and more flexible using Finale's metatools.  (Does 
Sibelius have anything to compare with Finale's "drag-enclose notes 
while holding metatool key" method to assign an articulation to 
multiple notes in multiple staves, all in one step?)


Hmm.
Selecting several notes and then hitting "/" on the keypad is not what 
you want?



Gerhard

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Gerhard Torges, geb. Hölscher]

Hello Tyler,

Am 14.07.2005 um 21:15 schrieb Tyler Turner:


Part of the nice thing about the forum is that the
organization into threads makes it much easier to
browse through and quickly see where your input is
beneficial and skip over the stuff where you aren't needed.


You can get the threaded view using a proper mail client.


Gerhard

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RE: [Finale] Controlled accel.

[Lee Actor]

> Ever since the unfortunate demise of JW Tempo for Mac, I've been
> looking for an easy way to tell Finale "Change smoothly from q=X to q=Y
> over Z number of measures."
>
> I know tempo improvements are coming in Fin2k6, but is there any *easy*
> way to do this in FinMac2k5?
>
> (And just in case, using shape expressions = NOT EASY, unless you have
> developed some painless method you'd like to share.)
>
> - Darcy

How about JW Tempo for PC? (sorry).  I feel your pain; I use this plugin a
LOT.

Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
http://www.leeactor.com


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Re: [Finale] Is this a Finale or Sibelius list?

[m_lawlor]

Darcy James Argue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

"The Sibelius discussion was directly related to the future of Finale and 
the kind of features and approach we'd like to see Finale emulate…  And why 
is it always the lurkers who never contribute solutions to Finale problems 
(or contribute to the discussion in any way whatsoever) who feel entitled to 
come out of the woodwork to complain about allegedly off-topic discussions? 
Who died and made you thread cop?" 

dhbailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

"People, the way to change the conversation on an e-mail list isn't to 
complain about it -- ASK A QUESTION!" 

Considering the large number of posts on apparently a Sibelius question 
(there was no reference to Finale comparisons in the subject) and not being 
a Sibelius user, I ignored the initial posts, since I do not have the time 
to spend reading everything that comes through.  I only read what is 
relevant to my work.  Does that make me a 'lurker'?  How many of you 
actually read everything? 

I do not consider myself an expert user of Finale (and I am still using 2002 
since there have been no useful updates to the product - in my opinion) so I 
usually only participate in discussions of a musical rather than technical 
nature.  Does that make me a 'lurker'?  I was quite happy to accept the 
opinion that the Sibelius discussion was indeed relevant, but others have 
made a mountain out of a mole hill. 

As far as 'changing the discussion by asking a question' is concerned, I do 
not want to add even more volume, making it more likely that useful 
discussions will be missed.  I am more concerned with reducing the volume of 
mail coming in. 

A simple, 'It's relevant!' would have sufficed.  No doubt I shall now go 
back to lurking, until I can think of some other way of generating even more 
junk than my simple (?) question. 


Regards, Best Wishes and I do not intend this as an insult to anyone!
Michael Lawlor
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[Finale] Controlled accel.

[Darcy James Argue]

Ever since the unfortunate demise of JW Tempo for Mac, I've been 
looking for an easy way to tell Finale "Change smoothly from q=X to q=Y 
over Z number of measures."


I know tempo improvements are coming in Fin2k6, but is there any *easy* 
way to do this in FinMac2k5?


(And just in case, using shape expressions = NOT EASY, unless you have 
developed some painless method you'd like to share.)


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] Anyone else have playback issues on FinMac 2005?

[Christopher Smith]

On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Stephen Peters wrote:


Lately my FinMac 2005b installation has seriously been acting up when
it comes to playback.  After running for a while, it will suddenly
decide to stop playing anything, either when I hit play or use
Opt-Space-Drag to listen to a preview.  During playback, the little
green bar will move across the page as if it were playing, but no
sound comes out.

That's using Quicktime playback, and it will usually come back if I
quit the program and restart it.  Sometime about a week ago Softsynth
playback stopped for me totally, for no apparent reason.  Same
symptoms; Finale thinks it's playing, but no sound.  Restarting
doesn't seem to change that at all.

Anyone else having these issues, or know of a workaround?



I am having ENORMOUS issues with playback on the same version.

I find going into MIDI menu, turn Internal Speaker Playback OFF, then 
on again, fixes the silent treatment.


This only works for Quicktime playback. Softsynth stopped working for 
me when I first tried out GPO, so I think it is related to that (or 
maybe not?), but I haven't messed around with it enough to discover 
what the real problem is, yet.


Christopher

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[Finale] Anyone else have playback issues on FinMac 2005?

[Stephen Peters]

Lately my FinMac 2005b installation has seriously been acting up when
it comes to playback.  After running for a while, it will suddenly
decide to stop playing anything, either when I hit play or use
Opt-Space-Drag to listen to a preview.  During playback, the little
green bar will move across the page as if it were playing, but no
sound comes out.

That's using Quicktime playback, and it will usually come back if I
quit the program and restart it.  Sometime about a week ago Softsynth
playback stopped for me totally, for no apparent reason.  Same
symptoms; Finale thinks it's playing, but no sound.  Restarting
doesn't seem to change that at all.

Anyone else having these issues, or know of a workaround?

-- 
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RE: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[keith helgesen]

Excuse a bunny daring to offer an answer- but I found Finale will not
believe, as described, if in "select partial measures' (edit menu) mode.

It works for me with dotted v tied notes, but I don't know about rests. 
(I haven't got Finale handy to check up!)

Click alt.e.m. (with no dots) before mass move and it starts to believe. 
(I think!)

Cheers K in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0439-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ken Moore
Sent: Friday, 15 July 2005 4:40 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

"David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote

>I wish there were a number of things that could be locked and not 
>changed:

>1. manual spacing

>2. cautionary accidentals

>3. manual beaming breaks

>All of these edits, despite my having explicitly told Finale I want 
>to override the defaults, are volatile and get blown away by the 
>simplest changes. Numbers 2 & 3 really oughtn't get overriden at all, 
>and your request, for the ability to lock a measure's spacing, would 
>be a very good thing. If that were combined with the addition of a 
>spacing metatool keyboard modifier to force-override that locked 
>spacing (such as ctrl-4), that would be even better.

Not quite the same, but reading this reminded me of it: I use dotted
quarter rests in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, because I think it makes it easier
to see where the beats are. Whenever I copy a measure, Finale turns each
of these into a quarter plus an eighth. This is just what I would expect
Sibelius to do (:-)> but is there somewhere that I can tell Finale to
believe me?



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RE: [Finale] Is this a Finale or Sibelius list?

[keith helgesen]

In the Australian Army Band circles Sibelius is, I understand, the primary
system- but Finale is available.

Most schools I know of here in Canberra use Sibelius- I am regularly told it
is more "user friendly".

Anyone who learns at school or in the Army is almost certainly going to stay
with that product. If it works, and it's what you know, why change?

It would seem that here in OZ at least, Finale have missed the marketing
boat!

Cheers 

K in OZ






Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0439-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Colin Broom
Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2005 11:08 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] Is this a Finale or Sibelius list?

Hooray! Sparks flying on the Finale list! :)

To be honest, I never fail to be somewhat amused at the fact that complaints

about non-Finale-related thread inevitably result in threads even longer 
than the ones complained about.

I too am very much in the "if you don't like it, you don't have to read it" 
camp.  I personally have been really interested in the New Sibelius/New 
Finale chat, as someone who as a minority of one in a community of 
Glasgow-based composers around my age all using Sibelius, still uses Finale.

  Furthermore, I teach Sibelius in a couple of contexts.

In reference to some of the education chat earlier, as far as the UK goes, 
in schools, in universities and in conservatoires, Finale have entirely lost

the battle as far as I can see, and will probably never be able to regain 
any significant ground, unless Sibelius make a series of real foul-ups with 
their product.  Not a single school I am aware of uses Finale, and I can't 
think of many universities using it either.   I find this fact tragic, 
because in so many ways, I strongly feel that for all its annoyances, Finale

is the better application.  The university at which I used to work used 
Finale because I recommended it for the course I was going to teach, but 
since I left 2 years ago, I can only surmise that it has fallen into disuse 
(stupid, I know).

In this environment, what real incentive is there to use a minority product?

  What sense does it make for a student to begin using a different 
application from their peers and often even their supervisors/tutors?

Like everyone here, I don't know what's going to happen with Finale over the

next few years, but I really, really don't want to switch to Sibelius for my

own work.  As much as anything else, I hate the thought of those smug 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] at Sibelius saying "we told you it was better".

I'd be interested in hearing more about Finale in education elsewhere.  I've

always had this (probably largely unfounded) idea that Finale is for the 
most part still the prominent product in the States, is this true?

Colin.

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RE: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[Lee Actor]

> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Ken Moore wrote:
>
> > Not quite the same, but reading this reminded me of it: I use dotted
> > quarter rests in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, because I think it makes it easier
> > to see where the beats are. Whenever I copy a measure, Finale turns each
> > of these into a quarter plus an eighth. This is just what I would expect
> > Sibelius to do (:-)> but is there somewhere that I can tell Finale to
> > believe me?
>
> I can't replicate this behavior - every time I copy, it preserves the
> dotted quarter rests. However, you might look at the quantization
> settings, allow dotted rests.
>

Something that bothers me is when Finale combines rests on a partial measure
copy.  For example, if I copy a beat consisting of two 16th notes
surrounding two 16th rests, Finale will combine the rests into a single 8th
rest.  This annoying behavior doesn't occur when copying full instead of
partial measures, though.  It would be nice to be able to do an exact copy
of partial measures.

Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
http://www.leeactor.com


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[Finale] Finale in education in the States (Was: Is this a Finale or Sibelius list?)

[Michael L. Meyer]

On 7/14/05 9:08 AM, "Colin Broom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'd be interested in hearing more about Finale in education elsewhere.  I've
> always had this (probably largely unfounded) idea that Finale is for the
> most part still the prominent product in the States, is this true?
> 
> Colin.

Based on my personal experiences, Finale still has the edge -- but the
distance is shrinking.  (I've personally been a Finale user since 1995 or so
-- version 3.0.1).

At the first high school I taught at (a district on Long Island, NY) we had
a computer music lab of about five computers, with Finale installed -- full
version, this was before Allegro and PrintMusic etc. etc.  The middle school
used a few copies as well.  Sibelius was around by then, but I didn't see it
anywhere.

When I went to grad school (large conservatory within a public university)
there were a few Sibelius users here and there, but the overwhelming
majority used Finale.  The school had officially adopted Finale as well (it
was installed on all school computers), and students were even required to
complete assignments within Finale for a jazz arranging class I took.

At my next high school job there were no music department (or music
department accessible) computer labs -- so each teacher chose what they
wanted for their personal work.  I still used Finale, but the Band teacher
used Sibelius, mostly because that's what the guy who did his marching band
arrangements (the band director at the other high school in the district)
used.  I believe Sibelius was used by the majority of elementary/middle
school music teachers in the district as well.

In my current job, we use Finale at the Upper School (9th-12th grades)
level, because I'm the only music teacher at the Upper School, and that's
what I wanted.  The middle school music teachers have chosen Sibelius,
although they don't use it with the kids much yet.  Many of my colleagues in
the area seem to be leaning towards or already using Sibelius.  The learning
curve on Sibelius sucked for me because I was already so used to Finale, but
if the learning curve is that much better for people first coming into
computer notation in general, it makes sense that schools are choosing
Sibelius.  Besides, it's not like elementary, middle, or high schoolers need
professional-quality engraving for their projects ...

So, mostly personal/anecdotal experience, but over the 10-12 years of my
career, I've seen a gradual shift towards Sibelius in education.  I'm also a
Mac guy, and this market change seems rather similar to the gradual change
from Apple towards PC (esp. Dell) in schools.

My $0.02.

-- Mike


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Re: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[Michael Cook]

I know this is annoying. Two things can help:

1. If you make sure that you copy whole measures, with no partial 
measure selection, Finale should copy the measures exactly as you wrote 
them.
2. Go to Options > Quantization Settings and click on More Settings. 
Here you will find the option "Allow Dotted Rests", which (with a bit 
of luck) should allow you to copy partial measures and keep the dotted 
rests.


Michael Cook

On 14 Jul 2005, at 20:40, Ken Moore wrote:

Not quite the same, but reading this reminded me of it: I use dotted
quarter rests in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, because I think it makes it easier
to see where the beats are. Whenever I copy a measure, Finale turns 
each
of these into a quarter plus an eighth. This is just what I would 
expect

Sibelius to do (:-)> but is there somewhere that I can tell Finale to
believe me?


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RE: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

Or just by clicking them again.

--- "Fisher, Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ah, but you can cycle through overlapping elements
> with the +/- keys in
> the selection tool...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Matthew Hindson Fastmail Account
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 3:20 AM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius
> 
> 
> Darcy James Argue wrote:
> 
> 
> > It was grabbing the tie ends that was hard
> (especially when items
> > overlapped).  Apparently there's now a shortcut to
> cycle through 
> > overlapping items, which is nice (and which would
> be nice for Finale).
> > 
> 
> Can't you cycle through overlapping items with the
> selection tool in 
> Finale?
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 


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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 3:18 PM, Fisher, Allen wrote:


Ah, but you can cycle through overlapping elements with the +/- keys in
the selection tool...


Yes, but Allen, as you know, the selection tool has been so slow as to 
be completely useless on MacFin since 2k4.  It's faster to just drag 
whatever's in front out of the way and reposition it later.


I hope the selection tool gets some love eventually, because it would 
be nice to have it back.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



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Re: [Finale] Mass copy [was: the last system and measure width lock}

[James Gilbert]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Ken Moore wrote:

> Not quite the same, but reading this reminded me of it: I use dotted
> quarter rests in 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, because I think it makes it easier
> to see where the beats are. Whenever I copy a measure, Finale turns each
> of these into a quarter plus an eighth. This is just what I would expect
> Sibelius to do (:-)> but is there somewhere that I can tell Finale to
> believe me?

I can't replicate this behavior - every time I copy, it preserves the
dotted quarter rests. However, you might look at the quantization
settings, allow dotted rests.

James Gilbert
http://www.jamesgilbertmusic.com
FinWin 2005

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RE: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Fisher, Allen]

Ah, but you can cycle through overlapping elements with the +/- keys in
the selection tool...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Matthew Hindson Fastmail Account
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 3:20 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius


Darcy James Argue wrote:


> It was grabbing the tie ends that was hard (especially when items
> overlapped).  Apparently there's now a shortcut to cycle through 
> overlapping items, which is nice (and which would be nice for Finale).
> 

Can't you cycle through overlapping items with the selection tool in 
Finale?

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RE: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Fisher, Allen]

Nope. Randy's still here. He just does more lurking (:-P) these days.

A

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Aaron Sherber
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:36 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius


At 02:06 PM 07/14/2005, David W. Fenton wrote:
 >Back in the Randy Stokes days, we had somebody like that, but who
>also was one of the programmers and could give technical explanations
>for problems. Boy, but I do miss Randy. Having him around really
>increased my confidence in Finale.  >  >And it seems that back in the
days when he worked for Coda was the  >period of the greatest
improvement for Finale. Since his departure,  >not much has happened to
Finale except the bundling of more and more  >bells and whistles, with
the reworking of only a couple major  >engraving problems.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] is still subscribed to this list. Why do you 
say that Randy has left Coda? (Just curious.)

Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[Tyler Turner]

--- "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Back in the Randy Stokes days, we had somebody like
> that, but who 
> also was one of the programmers and could give
> technical explanations 
> for problems. Boy, but I do miss Randy. Having him
> around really 
> increased my confidence in Finale.
> 
> And it seems that back in the days when he worked
> for Coda was the 
> period of the greatest improvement for Finale. Since
> his departure, 
> not much has happened to Finale except the bundling
> of more and more 
> bells and whistles, with the reworking of only a
> couple major 
> engraving problems.
> 
> > Compare that with MakeMusic's official disregard
> for this list and how
> > we have to look out for each other.
> > 


Randy still works for Coda - harder than ever. He just
doesn't get much time these days to visit the forum or
this list.

I'll be honest. When I was working as an employee of
MakeMusic, I tried to keep up with this list so I
could comment when needed. But boy, there are so many
e-mails going through here every day that keeping up
here meant not being able to keep up with my regular
duties to e-mails, phone calls and the official forum.
Part of the nice thing about the forum is that the
organization into threads makes it much easier to
browse through and quickly see where your input is
beneficial and skip over the stuff where you aren't needed.

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Re: [Finale] Staff Name Font

[Darcy James Argue]

On 14 Jul 2005, at 3:06 PM, Fisher, Allen wrote:


Darcy--

The Global Staff Attributes PI should do the job.

Allen


Thanks!

BTW -- have you guys considered folding some of these plugin items into 
the regular menus?  You could just borrow the code from the Global 
Staff Attributes PI and make it a menu item called "Change Staff Name 
Font" or something.  That seems like a more logical place to put that 
feature than a plugin.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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RE: [Finale] Staff Name Font

[Fisher, Allen]

Darcy--

The Global Staff Attributes PI should do the job.

Allen

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Darcy James Argue
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:44 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: [Finale] Staff Name Font


How do I change the font for all existing staff names simultaneously?

Changing the default font only affects newly created staff names, not 
the ones already entered.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius

[A-NO-NE Music]

Darcy James Argue / 2005/07/14 / 02:33 PM wrote:

>Hiro,
>
>I don't think you understood what I meant. 

Ha-ha.  I did it again.  I reread it and you are right I got it
backward.  Sorry about that.  By the way, in general, the difference
between OGL app and non-OGL app is CPU hit rather than GUI slowness.  If
GUI response is slow, something else is taking redraw process hostage.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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