Re: [Finale] Quoting
Darcy James Argue schrieb: In that case, then you are one of maybe three people on the entire Finale list who is sending properly formatted email messages -- at least by your definition. And it actually makes everyone else's life more difficult, unless you actually want double messages, so from now on you (not you, Darcy) will get double messages from me. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
David W. Fenton schrieb: Well, that's their choice, now isn't it? Why would you want to make life more difficult for Digest readers by suggesting that no one should bother trimming their quotations? What does it cost you to agree that cutting quotations to the minimum is A Good Thing? Or how can you argue that it is a bad thing just because you personally believe that nobody should be subscribed to the Digest? That would be like me asking MakeMusic to remove the features I don't use in Finale just because I can't see why anyone would need them (e.g., Simple Entry). David, You are always looking for an arguement, aren't you? Darcy just asked a very legicit question, he never doubted that it was their choice, and he never suggested to make their life more difficult. He did agree that cutting quotations down to a minimum is a good thing. So what are you going on about? There was absolutely no reason for this. Johannes PS: I am really tired of having to cut out your address from the replies. So whoseever fault it is, you either have to live with getting individual replies twice from me, or take out your reply-to header when you send to the list, to make my life easier. -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: Finale Digest, Vol 25, Issue 20
David W. Fenton wrote I'd be interested to know if under OS X you guys were stikll finding RAM disks helpful with pre-2006 Finale. We had a discussion of this a while back and I can't remember what was concluded. I'd have thought that OS X's modern industrial-strength virtual memory management would have made that obsolete, but I seem to remember that some of you were reporting that it still helped (which implies substantial inefficiency somewhere in the OS X disk caching subsystems). I'd think that this move of what used to be in temp files to RAM would finally obsolete the use of RAM disks as a performance enhancer (and make it into a performance drag). In my early days as a programmer, when IBM re-invented paging and called it virtul memory, it was generally understood that simplistic replacement algorithms, like Least Recently Used, could produce very poor performance in some circumstances e.g. inverting a matrix that is slightly bigger than main memory. With overlays, the programmer could anticipate data requirements and overlap fetches with computation. Even with more sophisticated control algorithms, it would not surprise me if paging sometimes hit a pathological condition. -- Ken Moore Musician and engineer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
David W. Fenton wrote: On 10 Aug 2005 at 17:58, Darcy James Argue wrote: I forgot to add, when addressing someone's question, lots of people reply to the replies (not the original), so even if the list was configured to automatically reply-to the individual as well as the list (which it isn't), digest subscribers _still_ wouldn't see many responses to their queries until the next edition of the digest is published. Well, that's their choice, now isn't it? Why would you want to make life more difficult for Digest readers by suggesting that no one should bother trimming their quotations? What does it cost you to agree that cutting quotations to the minimum is A Good Thing? Or how can you argue that it is a bad thing just because you personally believe that nobody should be subscribed to the Digest? That would be like me asking MakeMusic to remove the features I don't use in Finale just because I can't see why anyone would need them (e.g., Simple Entry). Darcy didn't disagree with trimming messages. He only raised an oblique issue questioning why anybody would receive the digest. In his original message he began with While I'm all for more selective quoting, so I don't understand why you're construing his tangential discussion of the relative merits of receiving individual messages as indicating that he doesn't agree with Andrew's point about better trimming. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
What messes me up is coming up on an interesection and seeing.. HERE STOP reminds me of lots of WAY - FREE's that I drive on. -- Rocky Road - in Oz Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica, leads a ragtag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest, for a shining planet known as Earth. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 10/08/05, Johannes Gebauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darcy James Argue schrieb: And it actually makes everyone else's life more difficult, unless you actually want double messages, so from now on you (not you, Darcy) will get double messages from me. Actually, he need not get double messages. There is an option in the Mailman preferences to Avoid duplicate copies of messages: When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing list. I'm fairly certain that gmail adds a Reply-To header to every email I send out (and that there's no way to change that), but with avoid duplicates turned on I never get more than one of each message. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
Brad Beyenhof schrieb: I'm fairly certain that gmail adds a Reply-To header to every email I send out (and that there's no way to change that), but with avoid duplicates turned on I never get more than one of each message. No, mailman is obviously not adding a reply-to header, if I click reply to your message only the finale address is put into the To field, not yours. With David's emails to the list are different as they turn out to have 2 reply to addresses in the header. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 09:41 AM 08/11/2005, Johannes Gebauer wrote: No, mailman is obviously not adding a reply-to header, if I click reply to your message only the finale address is put into the To field, not yours. Right. Mailman is adding 'Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu'. With David's emails to the list are different as they turn out to have 2 reply to addresses in the header. That's because when David (and others) sends an email, his mail client puts a 'Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]' header in. When Mailman then processes the message, instead of replacing this header with its own, it simply adds 'finale@shsu.edu' to the existing header. If you examine the headers of one of David's posts, you'll see 'Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], finale@shsu.edu'. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Fret number font
Have figured out how to place the 'fret number' next to a guitar grid by editing it etc. When I do another chord and put the number in a different 'vertical' position, it changes all of the fret number positions to the same as the new one. Isn't there a way to have each one separate? Also, is there some way I can save all of these that I'm creating so I can continue using them in other songs? Thanks for any help. George Ports ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
In my message mailman should have read Gmail, I think it is clearer then. We agree I believe. Johannes Aaron Sherber schrieb: At 09:41 AM 08/11/2005, Johannes Gebauer wrote: No, mailman is obviously not adding a reply-to header, if I click reply to your message only the finale address is put into the To field, not yours. Right. Mailman is adding 'Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu'. With David's emails to the list are different as they turn out to have 2 reply to addresses in the header. That's because when David (and others) sends an email, his mail client puts a 'Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]' header in. When Mailman then processes the message, instead of replacing this header with its own, it simply adds 'finale@shsu.edu' to the existing header. If you examine the headers of one of David's posts, you'll see 'Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], finale@shsu.edu'. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 11:31 AM 08/11/2005, Johannes Gebauer wrote: In my message mailman should have read Gmail, I think it is clearer then. We agree I believe. Ah, yes -- thanks for clarifying. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Dolet 3 for Finale released
Dear Finale list members, Today Recordare released our Dolet 3 for Finale plug-in. Dolet 3 for Finale reads and writes MusicXML 1.1 files for better file exchange with Sibelius, SharpEye Music Reader, and the many other programs that read and write MusicXML files. Even if you use the built-in MusicXML functions in Finale 2006, Dolet 3 for Finale has two big advantages: 1) Batch translation. Dolet 3 lets you translate an entire folder of MusicXML files into Finale files, or an entire folder of Finale files into MusicXML files. If you have a lot of files to transfer, this is an enormous time saver. Batch translation requires Finale 2004 or later and is not included in the 30-day free trial. 2) MusicXML 1.1 export. Finale 2006 reads MusicXML 1.0 and 1.1 files, but it only writes MusicXML 1.0 files to ensure the greatest compatibility with older versions of Finale. Dolet 3 writes MusicXML 1.1 files as well as reading them, letting you transfer more formatting information to older versions of Finale, Sibelius 4, or other MusicXML 1.1 applications. Dolet 3 for Finale works with Finale 2000 to 2006 on Windows and 2004 to 2006 on Macintosh OS X. Macintosh OS 9 is not supported. It is available now for download and purchase from: http://store.recordare.com/dolet3fin.html New purchases are US $119.95. Upgrades from Version 1 on Windows are $69.95. Upgrades from Version 2 on Macintosh OS X are $49.95. Best regards, Michael Good Recordare LLC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Quotes and Digests
I haven't done a total lately; however, I believe the DIGEST option is a 70/30 prefernce of listmembers. As for quoting, I believe cogent, concise quotes will be read more avidly than full-blown rehashes of conversations. Shakespeare;-) Your frindly listowner Henry Howey Professor of Music Sam Houston State University Box 2208 Huntsville, TX 77341 (936) 294-1364 http://www.shsu.edu/~music/faculty/howey.html Owner of FINALE Discussion List ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quotes and Digests
At 01:31 PM 08/11/2005, Henry E. Howey wrote: I haven't done a total lately; however, I believe the DIGEST option is a 70/30 prefernce of listmembers. 421 Digest / 362 non-digest Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
Johannes Gebauer wrote: I just wished Thunderbird would support selective quoting (where you select something in the original message, click Reply, and only that portion is quoted at the beginning of the reply message). Thunderbird is a great email client, but this is a huge step back from Claris Emailer and Outlook Express Mac. Very annoying. If anyone has a solution (and QuickReply isn't a solution, it doesn't work properly for me) let me know. Not very quick, as I have just reminded myself, if you take the digest. 1) Block from the message header to the end of the part to which I wish to reply. 2) [CTRL C] 3) Click on Reply; this sets To: and From: correctly. 4) Replace the Subject: contents with the message subject. 5) Delete up to the message author. 6) Replace from the space after the author's name to the beginning of the quote with wrote: [NL] [NL] 7) Insert at the beginning of each line of the message, with deletions and additions of [NL] if necessary to eliminate short lines. 8) Add my reply. On another mailing list that I take (indivisual posts), where nested quotes are often used to excess, deletions are even more detailed. -- Ken Moore Musician and engineer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 8:44, Johannes Gebauer wrote: PS: I am really tired of having to cut out your address from the replies. So whoseever fault it is, you either have to live with getting individual replies twice from me, or take out your reply-to header when you send to the list, to make my life easier. Take it up with the list owner. I'm not about to change the configuration of my email client to accommodate a mis-configured mailing list. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 6:17, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 10/08/05, Johannes Gebauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Darcy James Argue schrieb: And it actually makes everyone else's life more difficult, unless you actually want double messages, so from now on you (not you, Darcy) will get double messages from me. Actually, he need not get double messages. There is an option in the Mailman preferences to Avoid duplicate copies of messages: When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing list. I' not sure I quite understand how the list software can address that, as it isn't processing the header -- the sender's SMTP server is doing it. And, in any event, the problem is not duplication between headers, or duplication of emails to the same address in a single header. It's because the Reply-To header set by the list has two email addresses in it, the Reply-To of the message sent (in the case of my posts, [EMAIL PROTECTED]) plus the Finale mailing list. When someone replies to that post and does not trim the poster's address, there's no way I can imagine that the mailing list could eliminate any duplication, since the mailing list software only sees the copy that is addressed to it. So far as I can tell, that setting applies only to duplication between CC and To (which is what it says), and wouldn't have any effect on the current situation. BTW, I actually appreciate the efforts of the people who take the time to trim out my email address when replying. But the problem is not caused by *me* -- it's caused by an incorrect configuration of the mailing list software. This is the only mailing list I'ver ever subscribed to that exhibits this problem. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
PS: I am really tired of having to cut out your address from the replies. So whoseever fault it is, you either have to live with getting individual replies twice from me, or take out your reply-to header when you send to the list, to make my life easier. Take it up with the list owner. I'm not about to change the configuration of my email client to accommodate a mis-configured mailing list. I think you misread, Johannes said he's not bothering anymore, so if you don't want two replies from him, you should contact the list owner. It's not up to Johannes to accomodate you. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 15:41, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Brad Beyenhof schrieb: I'm fairly certain that gmail adds a Reply-To header to every email I send out (and that there's no way to change that), but with avoid duplicates turned on I never get more than one of each message. No, mailman is obviously not adding a reply-to header, if I click reply to your message only the finale address is put into the To field, not yours. With David's emails to the list are different as they turn out to have 2 reply to addresses in the header. Just to clarify: the two addresses are not put there by *me*. When I send to the list, there's only one address in the Reply-To header, my own. I subscribe to two other mailing lists using exactly the same configuration, and neither of those has a problem getting the Reply- To correct on posts sent out from the mailing list server. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quotes and Digests
On 11 Aug 2005 at 13:41, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 01:31 PM 08/11/2005, Henry E. Howey wrote: I haven't done a total lately; however, I believe the DIGEST option is a 70/30 prefernce of listmembers. 421 Digest / 362 non-digest *BOGGLE* That means that a *majority* of subscribers are on Digest. That means that more of the people you are writing to are reading your posts in Digest (assuming they are actually reading) than individual messages. That indicates to me that, assuming we all want the list's subscribers to read our posts, we should all format our posts for maximum readability on the Digest -- we should all be considering Digest readers when we post to the list. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 03:29 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: Just to clarify: the two addresses are not put there by *me*. When I send to the list, there's only one address in the Reply-To header, my own. Right. As I've explained before, Mailman adds the finale@shsu.edu to any existing Reply-To header. I subscribe to two other mailing lists using exactly the same configuration, and neither of those has a problem getting the Reply- To correct on posts sent out from the mailing list server. If Henry were so inclined, he could set first_strip_reply_to to YES in the Mailman settings, which would remove your personal Reply-To before adding the one from the list. This is not a bad idea and shouldn't break anything. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 03:27 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: I' not sure I quite understand how the list software can address that, as it isn't processing the header -- the sender's SMTP server is doing it. Right. If you have 'avoid' set to Yes, what Mailman does is look to see if you are explicitly named in the To or CC fields. If you are, then it doesn't send you a message through the list, since it assumes you've already been sent one directly. In other words, it doesn't discard the one addressed personally -- as you've surmised, it *can't* do that. It just chooses not to send you one as part of the group. The problem with this setting is (I think) that the one copy of the message you do receive will only have Reply-To set to the person who sent the message, and not to the list at all. So that if you have 'avoid' set to Yes, and you have a redundant Reply-To in your own MUA (as you do), and someone replies to one of your messages, and you reply to *that* message, your reply will not go to the list at all. That's a little confusing, but it makes sense if you think it through. So far as I can tell, that setting applies only to duplication between CC and To (which is what it says), and wouldn't have any effect on the current situation. If the Reply-To of a message I receive has your address and the list's, then my reply will have both addresses in To. But the problem is not caused by *me* -- it's caused by an incorrect configuration of the mailing list software. Well, it's caused by a certain setting in the software which would arguably be better set the other way. It's also caused by your MUA setting an un-needed and redundant Reply-To header. What would be nice is if Mailman could look at the Reply-To header and strip it out if it corresponds with the email address of an existing list subscriber. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 15:49, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 03:27 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: But the problem is not caused by *me* -- it's caused by an incorrect configuration of the mailing list software. Well, it's caused by a certain setting in the software which would arguably be better set the other way. It's also caused by your MUA setting an un-needed and redundant Reply-To header. What would be nice is if Mailman could look at the Reply-To header and strip it out if it corresponds with the email address of an existing list subscriber. Pegasus Mail has always set the Reply-To header, and I've been using it since 1996. Over that time, I've subscribed to any number of mailing lists, and the Finale list since the switch to Mailman (and after the controversy over whether the Reply-To should be set to the list address or to the sender's address), the Finale list is the only mailing list I've subscribed to in nearly 10 years that causes this problem. So, the problem is with the Finale list, not with my email client. Period. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quotes and Digests
David W. Fenton schrieb: That indicates to me that, assuming we all want the list's subscribers to read our posts, we should all format our posts for maximum readability on the Digest -- we should all be considering Digest readers when we post to the list. Which, of course, noone ever doubted. Only you doubted that noone doubted, so there you go. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz schrieb: Since I keep a big archive of posts that interest me, here's what I've found in the 3,009 posts I saved from 2005: Wow, this is turning into a research project. Anyway, I feel there is enough justification that those who have reply-to headers in their mail to the list actually want double postings in their inboxes, so I go with this and send them double postings. Fine with me. I am definitely not stripping out the To fields anymore. If those people don't want the double postings it's very easy to fix it at your end. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
David W. Fenton schrieb: Take it up with the list owner. I'm not about to change the configuration of my email client to accommodate a mis-configured mailing list. I am not so sure, actually. Isn't the very nature of a reply-to header that you _want_ it to be replied to? So, unless you want your double messages (which is fair enough, if that's the case) isn't it your mail client which is mis-configured, by definition of the reply-to header? Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: Quoting
I guess the firestorm for Finale2006 and GPO has died down, allowing us a full day to discuss email etiquette! :-) Of course, since I'm on the digest, I'm only about 18 hours late to the party... Darcy wrote: What possible advantage does the digest have over creating a Finale list folder and a rule that I use Eudora and it's quite easy to set up a different folder and route all Finale emails there (in fact, I have it set up that way right now, for the digest). I guess the main reason I stick to the digest is that I don't want to be involved with Finale issues throughout the day. Quite frankly, I don't see how some of you have so much time throughout the day to respond to the list, but I'm not you. And I suppose if I had the discipline I could easily ignore the Finale mailbox but for once a day, but I'm not that strong! :-) Once a day is fine by me. Also, I've been a Finale user since 1991 but I'm not a daily user. If I don't get an answer to my question right away that's OK. And if I do need to see something right away I can always go to the SHSU web site. it's harder to reply to individual messages True. you can't sort the list by thread True, but threads sometimes go astray, so that mechanism isn't always useful. I just use the space bar to fly through the digest, stopping when something interests me; in the meanwhile, I at least glance at everything, so I can see whether there's something I want to read more carefully. I might very well be in the minority, but it suits me. Andrew Levin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 12 Aug 2005 at 0:54, Johannes Gebauer wrote: David W. Fenton schrieb: Take it up with the list owner. I'm not about to change the configuration of my email client to accommodate a mis-configured mailing list. I am not so sure, actually. Isn't the very nature of a reply-to header that you _want_ it to be replied to? So, unless you want your double messages (which is fair enough, if that's the case) isn't it your mail client which is mis-configured, by definition of the reply-to header? The message that has the incorrect Reply-To header is not being sent by me. My message to the list is correct in having my email address in the Reply-To field. The list then sends a copy of my message out to all the subscribers. THe original of that message was from me, but the copy is from the list server. Thus, it's Reply-To should not include my address. It seems to me that this is all a last result of the fix to the problem that was present for a very long time where the list was configured to use the sender's address for the Reply-To (whether or not your message to the list had a Reply-To header). Instead of setting up the listserv to ignore the Reply-To of the incoming message and set the Reply-To to the list address, it now combines the incoming Reply-To field with the list address. Does anyone think that's a good idea? Anyone? What problem, exactly, does it solve? None, so far as I can see. It causes problems in one of two ways: 1. it either inconveniences the people who are paying attention to remove the extra address when replying, OR 2. it inconveniences the person lists in the Reply-To along with the list, by causing them to get two copies of those messages. Is there a justification for this? I don't think so. The only justification would be if Mailman were not configurable to drop the incoming Reply-To header. We know that is not the case. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 12 Aug 2005 at 1:01, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz schrieb: Since I keep a big archive of posts that interest me, here's what I've found in the 3,009 posts I saved from 2005: Wow, this is turning into a research project. Anyway, I feel there is enough justification that those who have reply-to headers in their mail to the list actually want double postings in their inboxes, so I go with this and send them double postings. Fine with me. I am definitely not stripping out the To fields anymore. If those people don't want the double postings it's very easy to fix it at your end. And you have the nerve to accuse *me* of being an asshole! -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quotes and Digests
On 12 Aug 2005 at 0:56, Johannes Gebauer wrote: David W. Fenton schrieb: That indicates to me that, assuming we all want the list's subscribers to read our posts, we should all format our posts for maximum readability on the Digest -- we should all be considering Digest readers when we post to the list. Which, of course, noone ever doubted. Only you doubted that noone doubted, so there you go. Well, the lack of effort on the part of many posters in regard to trimming quotations indicates to me that there was little concern over the issue. Darcy's questioning of the utility of the Digest confused me into thinking that this was also a challenge to the basic request, that people take the time to post sensibly. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 19:12, Andrew Levin wrote: I might very well be in the minority, but it suits me. As you'll see when you get to today's Digest, you're actually in the majority of list subscribers. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11/08/05, David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It causes problems in one of two ways: 1. it either inconveniences the people who are paying attention to remove the extra address when replying, OR 2. it inconveniences the person lists in the Reply-To along with the list, by causing them to get two copies of those messages. That's not the whole picture. People who include the Reply-To can also set the list not to send a duplicate message. This can be problematic in its own ways (as previously described), but I find this to be less obnoxious than receiving duplicate messages. However, I was on the digest for a while (when traffic was unbelievably heavy), and I actually *liked* receiving replies to myself as well as to the list. This way, I was able to see the answers to specific questions immediately, without having to wait for a new Digest or needing to visit the archive pages. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quotes and Digests
David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] Well, the lack of effort on the part of many posters in regard to trimming quotations indicates to me that there was little concern over the issue. Darcy's questioning of the utility of the Digest confused me into thinking that this was also a challenge to the basic request, that people take the time to post sensibly. I think the issue of people not trimming messages properly is simply one of learning netiquette -- just as with table manners, people new to something often need to be reminded about proper behavior, and people who are old-timers at it often need to be reminded to because neat habits can turn into sloppy habits. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Quoting
David W. Fenton wrote: On 11 Aug 2005 at 19:12, Andrew Levin wrote: I might very well be in the minority, but it suits me. As you'll see when you get to today's Digest, you're actually in the majority of list subscribers. An interesting point of research would be to see among the top 50% of users, based on activity, what the break-down of digest-vs-individual would be. I wonder if that would reflect the list's preference as a whole, or if the bulk of the digest-recipients are inactive members who simply want to glean whatever they can from the active members. I don't wonder it enough to actually do the research, but if we're trying to tailor behavior to benefit any specific group, who's to say it should be the digest-recipients? Why not tailor it to those who post the most, since those who post the least benefit a lot from the more active members, while those who post a lot benefit not one whit from those who don't post at all. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
Does anyone think that's a good idea? Anyone? Doesn't affect us, it's your problem. Take it up with the list owner and let's move onto something more interesting - we're all agreed about quoting aren't we. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 16:42, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 11/08/05, David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It causes problems in one of two ways: 1. it either inconveniences the people who are paying attention to remove the extra address when replying, OR 2. it inconveniences the person lists in the Reply-To along with the list, by causing them to get two copies of those messages. That's not the whole picture. People who include the Reply-To can also set the list not to send a duplicate message. . . . No, the list setting only controls duplicated TO: and CC: addresses, and the problem is *not* a duplicate address -- it's the recipient address plus the list address. . . . This can be problematic in its own ways (as previously described), but I find this to be less obnoxious than receiving duplicate messages. There isn't any subscriber setting that solves the problem. However, I was on the digest for a while (when traffic was unbelievably heavy), and I actually *liked* receiving replies to myself as well as to the list. This way, I was able to see the answers to specific questions immediately, without having to wait for a new Digest or needing to visit the archive pages. Well, that's perhaps one justification for it, but it seems a not very compelling one to me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 19:58, dhbailey wrote: An interesting point of research would be to see among the top 50% of users, based on activity, what the break-down of digest-vs-individual would be. I wonder if that would reflect the list's preference as a whole, or if the bulk of the digest-recipients are inactive members who simply want to glean whatever they can from the active members. I don't wonder it enough to actually do the research, but if we're trying to tailor behavior to benefit any specific group, who's to say it should be the digest-recipients? Why not tailor it to those who post the most, since those who post the least benefit a lot from the more active members, while those who post a lot benefit not one whit from those who don't post at all. Well, as I pointed out in one of my earliest post on the subject of quoting, trimming the quotations benefits everyone (by enhancing readability and clarity), though the benefit to the Digest users is, perhaps, larger, and more pragmatic. Even if there were no Digest at all, I'd still be calling for judicious trimming of quotations to only what is necessary to supply context for your own comments. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 12 Aug 2005 at 1:06, Simon Troup wrote: Does anyone think that's a good idea? Anyone? Doesn't affect us, it's your problem. Take it up with the list owner and let's move onto something more interesting - we're all agreed about quoting aren't we. Well, given how much difficulty there was in getting the list owner to change the Reply-To from the poster to the list, I don't see much point. On that one, there was generalized agreement among list subscribers, but it dragged on for months before the list owner made the change. And, yes, that's public criticism of the list owner, who seems to me to not pay much attention to the mechanics of running the list, probably because has much more important things to do. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 07:26 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: The message that has the incorrect Reply-To header is not being sent by me. Yes, it is. My message to the list is correct in having my email address in the Reply-To field. Having the same address in a Reply-To header as in your From header is redundant. The only justification would be if Mailman were not configurable to drop the incoming Reply-To header. We know that is not the case. I agree that Henry can -- and should -- easily configure Mailman to strip Reply-To. However, your sending out a Reply-To header which is the same as your From header serves no purpose whatsoever. I'm not saying this is anyone's fault, but it's something that you could fix for yourself quite easily and with no negative repercussions to you -- just as it's also something that Henry could fix listwide with no apparent negative repercussions. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
At 08:29 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: That's not the whole picture. People who include the Reply-To can also set the list not to send a duplicate message. . . . No, the list setting only controls duplicated TO: and CC: addresses, and the problem is *not* a duplicate address -- it's the recipient address plus the list address. David, you're missing the point of how this setting works. Please go back and read my earlier post. If I reply to one of your messages, my reply has your address in the To field as well as the list address. When Mailman processes my reply, it sees that your address is in the To field and also knows that you are a subscriber to the list. So if 'avoid duplicates' is Yes, Mailman will send my message to everyone on the list *except you*, because it figures you already got a direct reply from me. But as we've already discussed, this solution is not without problems. There are three ways to keep you from getting duplicate emails when someone replies to one of your posts: 1. The poster has to remember to strip out your address. A little annoying. 2. Henry can set Mailman to strip out Reply-To headers before adding Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Easy, and no significant downside. (Brad mentioned a scenario in which he was on digest and liked also getting immediate posts replying to his questions, but this assumes that posters didn't strip out his address from the reply!) 3. You can take out your redundant Reply-To header, which serves no purpose in any message you send, since it's the same as your From header. Easy, and no downside at all. And this discussion really is taking up far more bandwidth than it's worth. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 20:51, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 07:26 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: The message that has the incorrect Reply-To header is not being sent by me. Yes, it is. No, it really isn't. The incorrect Reply-To header is generated by the mailing list server. My message to the list is correct in having my email address in the Reply-To field. Having the same address in a Reply-To header as in your From header is redundant. But not incorrect -- you're the one who pointed out the RFC on this, and while it is optional, it is not incorrect formatting to include it, even if it's redundant (from a human point of view) when identical to the FROM address. The only justification would be if Mailman were not configurable to drop the incoming Reply-To header. We know that is not the case. I agree that Henry can -- and should -- easily configure Mailman to strip Reply-To. However, your sending out a Reply-To header which is the same as your From header serves no purpose whatsoever. . . . It is the way my email client works. . . . I'm not saying this is anyone's fault, but it's something that you could fix for yourself quite easily and with no negative repercussions to you -- just as it's also something that Henry could fix listwide with no apparent negative repercussions. No, I'm not going to change the way I send email, which I've been doing since 1996 when I started using Pegasus Mail, just because of a misconfigured mailing list. As others have said, the inconvenience is quite small, even if annoying because it's so easily correctable. If there were really some kind of problem with my email client's settings for the Reply-To header, you'd think it would have emerged sometime in the 9 years I've been using it. The only place there's ever been a problem is the Finale mailing list. Indeed, the Finale mailing list is the only one I've ever subscribed to that has repeatedly had these kinds of list configuration issues. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Quoting
On 11 Aug 2005 at 20:59, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 08:29 PM 08/11/2005, David W. Fenton wrote: That's not the whole picture. People who include the Reply-To can also set the list not to send a duplicate message. . . . No, the list setting only controls duplicated TO: and CC: addresses, and the problem is *not* a duplicate address -- it's the recipient address plus the list address. David, you're missing the point of how this setting works. Please go back and read my earlier post. If I reply to one of your messages, my reply has your address in the To field as well as the list address. When Mailman processes my reply, it sees that your address is in the To field and also knows that you are a subscriber to the list. So if 'avoid duplicates' is Yes, Mailman will send my message to everyone on the list *except you*, because it figures you already got a direct reply from me. And that could be a completely incorrect assumption on the part of Mailman, because it can't know what your SMTP server actually did. In any event, I just checked, and I do, in fact, have that feature checked, yet I still get duplicate posts. But as we've already discussed, this solution is not without problems. And it doesn't actually work reliably. There are three ways to keep you from getting duplicate emails when someone replies to one of your posts: 1. The poster has to remember to strip out your address. A little annoying. 2. Henry can set Mailman to strip out Reply-To headers before adding Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Easy, and no significant downside. (Brad mentioned a scenario in which he was on digest and liked also getting immediate posts replying to his questions, but this assumes that posters didn't strip out his address from the reply!) 3. You can take out your redundant Reply-To header, which serves no purpose in any message you send, since it's the same as your From header. Easy, and no downside at all. Yes, there *is* a downside -- I have to change the way my email messages are constructed, and depart from the default configuration for my email reader, one that I've been using for 9 years. If there's only one context in which the configuration of my email client causes any problems, then it's pretty clear that the problem is with that recipient, the Finale mailing list, not with my email configuration. And this discussion really is taking up far more bandwidth than it's worth. I agree. I don't understand why misconfigurations of this mailing list continue to be such an issue. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
