Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Jul 2005, at 2:32 PM, ronan wrote: Or if you are planning on sharing your file with someone whose computer resources are small enough that he/she is only using soundfont playback (yes I know that's midi output, but not to some uninitiated Finale users -- to them it's just another means of sound production). Thus the need for two different scores at least. Until or unless you know that the only people who will be hearing your Finale files will be using GPO playback only. NO. Look, I don't know how many times I need to say this: In Finale 2006, you do NOT have to make an additional version of the score for soundfont playback. Provided you use the Setup Wizard to create your score (or manually set up the score correctly), the EXACT SAME VERSION OF THE SCORE will play back just fine using *either* HP plus either the Finale Soundfont *or* HP plus GPO. You do NOT need two different versions of the file. And for someone using an external playback device with 16 channels? How will having channels 1-8 and 17-24 be responded to on a device which only recognizes 1-16? Not everybody has the latest/greatest computer equipment, some actually think hardware modules sound better. But for whatever reason, if sharing a file with them, changes will have to be made. Changes which won't work with GPO. Thus the need for 2 files. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Chuck Israels wrote: On Jul 31, 2005, at 1:17 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I agree, and thanks for pointing it out! I understand that this GPO thing is very confusing to newcomers -- much more confusing than it needs to be. MakeMusic should pay someone ([ahem] like, say, me) to write a simple, easy-to-understand tutorial on this. Here's another idea, Darcy, Write the missing manual, perhaps as a ebook, and charge us for it. I know this gets MM and Gary off the hook, but it helps one of the most helpful people on the list, and that's OK with me. I would be willing to pay your for such a book/tutorial/whatever, as well. If you can add any windows/mac discrepancies as well, it would be a universally useful add-on. We pay Tobias and Robert for TGTools and Patterson Plug-ins, I certainly will pay you for your expertise. Even more helpful would be if you include a sample file or two, showing us the correct to get a file setup so it can be used with any of the three playback methods: Finale/GPO (adding some hints for use with full GPO), soundfont playback, external midi playback. Just a thought, and since your orchestration client has bailed on you, you could pick up some needed cash. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 07:26 AM 08/01/2005, dhbailey wrote: And for someone using an external playback device with 16 channels? How will having channels 1-8 and 17-24 be responded to on a device which only recognizes 1-16? David, take a look at some of my other responses to Darcy. A GPO slot is not the same thing as a MIDI channel, even though the easiest way to set things up may be to have the two be equivalent. It's easy to use MIDI 1-16 and map them to GPO slots 1-8 and 17-24 so that things will playback correctly. In fact, you have to do something like this with percussion, which require MIDI 10. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Aaron Sherber / 2005/08/01 / 09:15 AM wrote: percussion, which require MIDI 10. This is the one got me messed up yesterday. Would you elaborate why percussion needs to be ch10? Un-pitched instrument reserved for ch10 is only for GM protocol, and none of sampler including GPO should be following this since GPO is not a GM device. In another word, why ch10 has to be controlled only by velocity but disables CC in Finale? This just doesn't make sense to me, and it did bit me heard since I didn't expect CC7 was set to 105 by HP. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 09:43 AM 08/01/2005, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Aaron Sherber / 2005/08/01 / 09:15 AM wrote: percussion, which require MIDI 10. This is the one got me messed up yesterday. Would you elaborate why percussion needs to be ch10? Un-pitched instrument reserved for ch10 is only for GM protocol, Yes, that's what I meant. For those of us using primarily the Finale Softsynth, unpitched percussion has to be on MIDI channel 10. But Finale GPO only has slots 1-8 and then 17-24, so MIDI channel 10 has to be mapped to some other GPO slot *if* you want a score that can playback either with Softsynth or FinGPO. In another word, why ch10 has to be controlled only by velocity but disables CC in Finale? This just doesn't make sense to me, and it did bit me heard since I didn't expect CC7 was set to 105 by HP. Sorry, Hiro -- I know just enough about MIDI to do the things I need to do, so I don't understand a single part of this question. g Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Aaron Sherber wrote: At 07:26 AM 08/01/2005, dhbailey wrote: And for someone using an external playback device with 16 channels? How will having channels 1-8 and 17-24 be responded to on a device which only recognizes 1-16? David, take a look at some of my other responses to Darcy. A GPO slot is not the same thing as a MIDI channel, even though the easiest way to set things up may be to have the two be equivalent. It's easy to use MIDI 1-16 and map them to GPO slots 1-8 and 17-24 so that things will playback correctly. In fact, you have to do something like this with percussion, which require MIDI 10. Thanks for persisting with me, Aaron. I just spent a very frustrating half-hour before I realized that the place to change channels isn't the instrument list but is the keyboard-like interface of the VST setup (get to the place where you can initiate however many instances of GPO you want and then click the EDIT button.) There's a little-tiny midi-port with a channel number next to it, just to the right of the LOAD button, just below the instrument's patch name and the CPU Usage slot. Click on that channel number next to the midi-port icon (why clicking the icon does nothing is beyond me) and you get a list of channels. Okay, I now see that. However, when I edit that, a comparable edit is not made in the Instrument List window, so if I am configuring a file to play through an external device I need to edit that as well. And the edit there won't have any affect on the channel I edit in the GPO dialog. But if I edit the instrument playback list, even if I am using GPO, and so assign a channel that doesn't have a patch loaded, there will be no sound. So it seems that Instrument list edits can affect GPO playback, but GPO edits don't always affect Instrument List data. Interestingly enough, changing the setting to be OMNI, and GPO responds to any channel edits I make in Instrument List. However, if you load two different patches and assign them both to OMNI, you get one sound or the other for all your staves (I added a second staff and tried it), so you're stuck with assigning specific channels to the GPO sounds. I don't think anybody could explain this behavior, not even Darcy. In any event, now, Aaron, I do see your point and can understand how a person can maintain a single file for any sort of playback, unless your score utilizes more than 16 channels and you want to make it playable on a standard 16-channel midi playback device, but then that's been true ever since MakeMusic expanded midi capability to more than 16 channels and there's never been a way around that. The more I dig to find out what it is people are trying to say to me, the more I learn about this GPO stuff. But I'm not sure anybody could make it easy, because it's only by asking the questions which have us baffled or stonewalled that some of us are perservering through the answers to find some tiny spark of light. I'm sure it'll come, a much more fluid, fluent understanding, but I'm not sure at what price, nor at what a return on investment. I still find the soundfont playback to be perfectly fine for playback and for demos. After all, we've been reminded that even GPO has its limitations and will sound synthetic. As long as my clients can recognize the instruments as being what they're supposed to be (e.g. have a violin sound like a violin and not a gameboy sqwauk as used to happen with the old FMsynth soundcards), they'll be happy. Especially since without a larger outlay for samples (full GPO, Jazz/BigBand set) and in hardware (I'm already noticing hiccups with my 1.8GHz P4 with 1GB of ram, if anything is running in the background), we won't ever be able to fully realize the potential of this stuff. So my public thanks to Tyler and Darcy and Aaron and the others who have persisted against my granite-brained obstinance -- I can see the potential. I can't realize it yet, but I know it's there. Now let me see, how can I overbill my clients that extra $400 so I can buy the full GPO and the Jazz/BigBand set when it's released, and then there's that extra money for a larger hard drive to hold the samples and more ram so they can be held in memory when needed, and, oh, yes, the faster processor which will necessitate a new motherboard. By my calculations, to get the full potential out of this $100 upgrade, it should only cost me somewhere around $800 or more. Yeah, I can pad my billing that much, no problem! Maybe even convince my bank that a capital improvement loan for my business would be worthwhile. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, dhbailey wrote: Interestingly enough, changing the setting to be OMNI, and GPO responds to any channel edits I make in Instrument List. However, if you load two different patches and assign them both to OMNI, you get one sound or the other for all your staves (I added a second staff and tried it), so you're stuck with assigning specific channels to the GPO sounds. I don't think anybody could explain this behavior, not even Darcy. I don't know if this explains it or not, but I had some problems getting the GPO to work at all. I was trying an organ piece that I set the staves to channels 4, 5 6 in the instrument list. However, I loaded the GPO sounds into the first 3 slots (which default to channels 1, 2 3). Messing around with OMNI did get me the organ sounds, but not in the way I wanted. So, I loaded the GPO sounds into slots 4, 5 6 and everything worked fine. So, whatever channels are in the instrument list are the channels you need to load the GPO sounds into. (It should be noted that each slot in the Kontakt player, where you load the GPO sounds, can be changed to whatever channel you want it to, but it doesn't affect the instrument list. So, load the GPO sounds into the same channels specified by the instrument list). I still find the soundfont playback to be perfectly fine for playback and for demos. Considering the excessive system demands GPO has and the ready availability of free soundfounts on the internet - there is a nice english organ soundfont floating around out there for free and many orchestra soundfonts - I'm quite content with the smartsynth soundfont or even the Roland VSC for playback and demos. James Gilbert ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 11:09 AM 08/01/2005, dhbailey wrote: I just spent a very frustrating half-hour before I realized that the place to change channels isn't the instrument list but is the keyboard-like interface of the VST setup Yes, that was in one of my earlier posts. However, when I edit that, a comparable edit is not made in the Instrument List window, so if I am configuring a file to play through an external device I need to edit that as well. And the edit there won't have any affect on the channel I edit in the GPO dialog. Well, yes, I suppose. That all makes sense to me. The edits you make in the GPO dialog tell GPO what channels to listen for. It doesn't tell any other device. But if I edit the instrument playback list, even if I am using GPO, and so assign a channel that doesn't have a patch loaded, there will be no sound. Yes, that's also true. So it seems that Instrument list edits can affect GPO playback, but GPO edits don't always affect Instrument List data. I don't think either affects either, really. The instrument list tells Finale what MIDI channel to use for each staff. The Kontakt dialog tells Kontakt what channels to map to what patches. If you things around, neither one talks to the other. However, if you load two different patches and assign them both to OMNI, you get one sound or the other for all your staves That's what I would expect. OMNI probably means to listen to all MIDI channels and play that sound. score utilizes more than 16 channels and you want to make it playable on a standard 16-channel midi playback device, but then that's been true ever since MakeMusic expanded midi capability to more than 16 channels and there's never been a way around that. Yes, exactly. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 01 Aug 2005, at 7:26 AM, dhbailey wrote: And for someone using an external playback device with 16 channels? They will have to use the Finale SoundFont. But for whatever reason, if sharing a file with them, changes will have to be made. Changes which won't work with GPO. Or you could just record to audio and send that along with the file. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005, at 6:16 PM, John Hughes wrote: I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. Well, how *do* you have things set up at the moment? MIDI IN SB Audigy Midi Port MIDI OUT Smart Music Soft Synth You mean you're not actually using GPO for playback??? You're using the Smart Music SoftSynth??? No wonder you're disappointed! - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
ronan wrote: I just finished setting up a symphonic score with 40 instruments, using Finale with the full version of GPO. I have each percussion instrument set to a different channel. Eg, Snare: 67; tamtam = 68, etc. They play back beautifully. BTW, I didn't bother with midi assignments. I left all of them pointing to the acoustic Grand Piano because I am not interested in midi. Channel 10 does not exist in Kontakt and is only of use if you are planning to produce midi output. Or if you are planning on sharing your file with someone whose computer resources are small enough that he/she is only using soundfont playback (yes I know that's midi output, but not to some uninitiated Finale users -- to them it's just another means of sound production). Thus the need for two different scores at least. Until or unless you know that the only people who will be hearing your Finale files will be using GPO playback only. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
- Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO On 30 Jul 2005, at 6:16 PM, John Hughes wrote: I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. Well, how *do* you have things set up at the moment? MIDI IN SB Audigy Midi Port MIDI OUT Smart Music Soft Synth You mean you're not actually using GPO for playback??? You're using the Smart Music SoftSynth??? No wonder you're disappointed! - Darcy I'm sorry you're taking this so hard Darcy. Why do you come out swinging? Blimey! if I ever thought I was upsetting anybody I wouldn't have appealed to the group with my problem. Fortunately there are some wonderful, helpful people on the list like David Bailey and David Fenton. God bless 'em. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 12:11 PM, John Hughes wrote: I'm sorry you're taking this so hard Darcy. Why do you come out swinging? I'm not coming out swinging, John. I'm trying to help you. I asked you how your GPO was set up and you started talking about your MIDI Setup, which is completely irrelevant to the question. This leads me to believe that you are still playing back using the soundfont, and not GPO. I'm asking you straight out -- are you 100% sure you are actually using GPO and not the SoftSynth for playback? What are your steps for setting up your score for GPO playback? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Based on this answer, it's entirely possible John is very confused and getting Finale softsynth sounds instead of GPO sounds, which would explain his disappointment with the sound quality. I read it the same way too, which was why I was suprised that John took offence, I didn't think it was meant that way. In Darcy's defence, he's been helping a great many of us as he's had a good deal more time to play with the Finale GPO implementation than most of us. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Hi Simon , Tyler Turner kindly offered to do that very thing. I replied immediately enclosing with an attachment of one of my files, but it hasn't been delivered yet. It is being held for moderator approval because the size is overt the limit. John - Original Message - From: Simon Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO On 30 Jul 2005, at 6:16 PM, John Hughes wrote: I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. Hi John Maybe if you sent a file out, someone could make an MP3 of their own playback, and you could hear if you're getting something different? Would that help? I mean, have we established that you're hearing something different or just have very different expectations? Or maybe you're getting the sounds but just not optimised in a way that makes them believeable. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
John, You can't post attachments to the list. You need to send it privately to Tyler Turner's email. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 31 Jul 2005, at 1:32 PM, John Hughes wrote: Hi Simon , Tyler Turner kindly offered to do that very thing. I replied immediately enclosing with an attachment of one of my files, but it hasn't been delivered yet. It is being held for moderator approval because the size is overt the limit. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
John Hughes schrieb: Hi Simon , Tyler Turner kindly offered to do that very thing. I replied immediately enclosing with an attachment of one of my files, but it hasn't been delivered yet. It is being held for moderator approval because the size is overt the limit. Well, let's hope it doesn't get through! Please do not ever send such attachments to the list. Thanks, Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Or if you are planning on sharing your file with someone whose computer resources are small enough that he/she is only using soundfont playback (yes I know that's midi output, but not to some uninitiated Finale users -- to them it's just another means of sound production). Thus the need for two different scores at least. Until or unless you know that the only people who will be hearing your Finale files will be using GPO playback only. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You're exactly right. Scores are for printing; MP3's and Waves for listening. I do post some Finale files, but those are small and it's no problem to assign channels to them. But for a large serious work, I am not going to be posting the Finale file. My reason for the comment was to let people know they do not have to mess with Channel 10 for percussion if it doesn't suit them. Maybe they already know that--but I didn't for a long time and kept shooting myself in the foot. Cheers, Ron Ronald J Brown PO Box 138 Newboro ON K0G 1P0 (613) 272-3181 http://www.RonaldJBrown.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 2:32 PM, ronan wrote: Or if you are planning on sharing your file with someone whose computer resources are small enough that he/she is only using soundfont playback (yes I know that's midi output, but not to some uninitiated Finale users -- to them it's just another means of sound production). Thus the need for two different scores at least. Until or unless you know that the only people who will be hearing your Finale files will be using GPO playback only. NO. Look, I don't know how many times I need to say this: In Finale 2006, you do NOT have to make an additional version of the score for soundfont playback. Provided you use the Setup Wizard to create your score (or manually set up the score correctly), the EXACT SAME VERSION OF THE SCORE will play back just fine using *either* HP plus either the Finale Soundfont *or* HP plus GPO. You do NOT need two different versions of the file. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Thanks, Hiro. - Original Message - From: A-NO-NE Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO John Hughes / 2005/07/31 / 01:57 PM wrote: I had no idea of the existence of VST (I still don't know what the initials stand for) Virtual Studio Technology protocol created by Steinberg. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 3:37 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: Ahhh.another *extremely* important and confusing thing that doesn't appear to be in the manual: You can assign a different slot to an instrument in GPO than the MIDI channel number. This, for me, was the missing link, and it explains how you can have percussion play back on MIDI channel 10 when that slot is not available in Finale GPO. You can see this if you set up a new GPO score with flute, violin, and percussion. Check the instrument list; as expected, flute is channel 1, perc is channel 10, and violin is channel 3. Now look at GPO setup. The instruments are in slots 1-3, but if you select slot 2 (percussion), you'll see underneath that it's set to pick up on MIDI channel 10. Darcy, this for me is a *very* important insight, even if it's something that was obvious to you. I agree, and thanks for pointing it out! I understand that this GPO thing is very confusing to newcomers -- much more confusing than it needs to be. MakeMusic should pay someone ([ahem] like, say, me) to write a simple, easy-to-understand tutorial on this. Now, this leads me to to another feature which I think would be very useful. I don't have a very powerful machine, and I'm not going to be using GPO in the near future. But I would like to set up my new scores for GPO playback from the start. The problem is that actual instrument loading takes place at the *wrong* point in the process. In the setup wizard, it takes place when you finish the wizard. If you're configuring GPO by hand, it takes place as you add each instrument. I think instrument loading shouldn't take place until you click the Play through VST option. But that's checked by default (as it should be!) when you set up a score using Finale GPO Edition instruments. However, I have requested that there be a new Program Option Only load AU/VST instruments on playback. This would be *tremendously* helpful when switching between multiple scores that are configured for AU/VST playback. If you think this is a good idea, please let MakeMusic know. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 4:28 PM, dennis c. wrote: A stupid question while I'm at it: could GPO be of any use at all for vocal music? Not really at this point. But if you have AU-compatible choral samples (or, at least ones that use the Kontakt Player), you could combine those with accompaniment from the GPO piano or whatever. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005 at 10:11, John Hughes wrote: I'm sorry you're taking this so hard Darcy. Why do you come out swinging? Blimey! if I ever thought I was upsetting anybody I wouldn't have appealed to the group with my problem. Fortunately there are some wonderful, helpful people on the list like David Bailey and David Fenton. God bless 'em. Darcy is *far* more helpful and *much* nicer about it than *I* am! You insult him by comparing him to me! -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005 at 12:46, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Jul 2005, at 12:11 PM, John Hughes wrote: I'm sorry you're taking this so hard Darcy. Why do you come out swinging? I'm not coming out swinging, John. I'm trying to help you. I asked you how your GPO was set up and you started talking about your MIDI Setup, which is completely irrelevant to the question. This leads me to believe that you are still playing back using the soundfont, and not GPO. Well, it seems to me that John's confusion here is natural. Now, granted, I don't have Finale 2006 in front of me to work with, but to me, GPO *ought* to be one of the MIDI output options, because it's, well A MIDI OUTPUT OPTION. I don't care what the underlying technologies are, but from a user point of view, it's an output device and oughtn't be treated in a special way, in completely different dialogs that are located somewhere else. This is one of the big problems with adapting any program to the specifics of another program. It seems to me that this kind of thing can only exacerbate Finale's already myriad UI problems. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 5:11 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 31 Jul 2005 at 10:11, John Hughes wrote: I'm sorry you're taking this so hard Darcy. Why do you come out swinging? Blimey! if I ever thought I was upsetting anybody I wouldn't have appealed to the group with my problem. Fortunately there are some wonderful, helpful people on the list like David Bailey and David Fenton. God bless 'em. Darcy is *far* more helpful and *much* nicer about it than *I* am! You insult him by comparing him to me! Not really... but thanks all the same, David. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 04:17 PM 07/31/2005, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Jul 2005, at 3:37 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: I think instrument loading shouldn't take place until you click the Play through VST option. But that's checked by default (as it should be!) when you set up a score using Finale GPO Edition instruments. I think there should be a separate step in the setup wizard. I ought to be able to setup a score for GPO and *assign* GPO instruments but also choose not to *load* those instruments -- that is, to play through Softsynth. However, I have requested that there be a new Program Option Only load AU/VST instruments on playback. This would be *tremendously* helpful when switching between multiple scores that are configured for AU/VST playback. If you think this is a good idea, please let MakeMusic know. It depends how the *unload* is configured. If this is like HP, where samples are loaded before playback and then unloaded immediately after, then I don't think it's a good idea, because you'd have to load all the instruments each time you press play. I like the idea of not loading until the first playback, but then maybe they should stay loaded until you switch docs or press some button to manually unload them. Like maybe I'm working on a file, I want to listen to some of it in GPO, and then I want to get rid of the samples and get some of my RAM back while I continue working. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
When do maintenance releases usually appear, and are we charged for them? Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 06:40 PM 07/30/2005, dhbailey wrote: Which brings up the question as to why the Ambience Reverb doesn't give us Room Sizes to choose from, at least on the Windows side of things? Is that something to be expected in the maintenance release as well? Yes, according to Winsupport. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 31 Jul 2005, at 5:58 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 04:17 PM 07/31/2005, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 31 Jul 2005, at 3:37 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: I think instrument loading shouldn't take place until you click the Play through VST option. But that's checked by default (as it should be!) when you set up a score using Finale GPO Edition instruments. I think there should be a separate step in the setup wizard. I ought to be able to setup a score for GPO and *assign* GPO instruments but also choose not to *load* those instruments -- that is, to play through Softsynth. No. That's the wrong place for it. It should be a Program Option, as I said. If you had Load AU/VST instruments only when needed checked, you could set up you score for GPO with the Setup Wizard, have it open right away (without loading any GPO instruments) and immediately switch to SoftSynth playback. That's almost as easy as what you described, and it's better UI, usable in a greater variety of situations (like loading multiple scores). However, I have requested that there be a new Program Option Only load AU/VST instruments on playback. This would be *tremendously* helpful when switching between multiple scores that are configured for AU/VST playback. If you think this is a good idea, please let MakeMusic know. It depends how the *unload* is configured. If this is like HP, where samples are loaded before playback and then unloaded immediately after, That's not what I'm proposing. then I don't think it's a good idea, because you'd have to load all the instruments each time you press play. Obviously, that would be bad. I like the idea of not loading until the first playback, but then maybe they should stay loaded until you switch docs or press some button to manually unload them. Exactly. Like maybe I'm working on a file, I want to listen to some of it in GPO, and then I want to get rid of the samples and get some of my RAM back while I continue working. Again, exactly. Please suggest this to MM. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On Jul 31, 2005, at 1:17 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:I agree, and thanks for pointing it out! I understand that this GPO thing is very confusing to newcomers -- much more confusing than it needs to be.MakeMusic should pay someone ([ahem] like, say, me) to write a simple, easy-to-understand tutorial on this.Here's another idea, Darcy,Write the "missing" manual, perhaps as a ebook, and charge us for it. I know this gets MM and Gary off the hook, but it helps one of the most helpful people on the list, and that's OK with me.Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 06:41 PM 07/31/2005, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: When do maintenance releases usually appear, For the last few years, there has been an 'a' version that comes out after three months or so, to fix things that were broken in the original release. and are we charged for them? No. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 07:02 PM 07/31/2005, Darcy James Argue wrote: No. That's the wrong place for it. It should be a Program Option, as I said. You're right -- I wrote this reply before I saw your other post. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Thanks Aaron. Dean On Jul 31, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 06:41 PM 07/31/2005, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: When do maintenance releases usually appear, For the last few years, there has been an 'a' version that comes out after three months or so, to fix things that were broken in the original release. and are we charged for them? No. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
--- Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good explanation Tyler ... now, how do you feel about the GPO sounds? Are they as good as the samples provided on the MM site, or not? And if not, what gives? Also, I've just received the following message: Dear Finale Macintosh Customer; In a previous e-mail we informed you of an upgrade installation problem with Finale 2006. In that e-mail we described how to remove a folder from your Macintosh before running the installer. Since then we have created a small program that will automatically find and delete the folder for you. Again, this MUST be run BEFORE you run the Finale 2006 installer. In order for this pre-installer to work properly you must quit all running applications prior to installation. If you haven't already deleted this folder, you can download this program, the Pre-installer for Finale 2006, and run it from your desktop. It will only take a few seconds. Select the link below to download. I downloaded this and activated it, as I have not yet installed my 2006, though it is sitting by my side as I write. I got a message that my system didn't need the pre-installer's benefit. Should I trust this and go ahead with installation ... even if so many are disappointed with GPO sounds? Dean I'm pleased with the GPO sounds. They absolutely require some use of the special Ambience reverb plug-in that's included, and it's possible that some people here haven't had a chance to really experiment with that and find settings that work well. The right reverb settings improve the sound 500%. (disclaimer - I know that there are people on this list who are against the idea of using reverb, but GPO sounds were designed with the idea that reverb would be used) The demos on MakeMusic's webpage are definitely better than average, but they're not unrealistic. I have at least one that I pulled from the Showcase, played from Finale and found I thought sounded better than the demos. There's a lot of variation - some sound great with GPO and others are less of an improvement. You could check to see if the folder that the first e-mail told you to remove is gone. If it's gone, then it should be safe to install. If you're concerned, you could first create a copy of the folder that was getting wiped out. Tyler Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Totally agree. I really think the GPO thing is fluff. I'd rather see Finale get better at importing Midi files. I hate when a Midi that I've done in Digital Performer does not come across correctly in Finale. It happens all the time. It's frustrating, and wastes time. Aaah, but think how much better that messed up file sounds with GPO playback! ;-) You mean you think they should repair midi import and possible get EPS export working on the windows platform before adding more bells and whistles? How dare you, that's not part of MakeMusic's corporate culture! :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 29 Jul 2005, at 9:06 PM, John Hughes wrote: Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? Those sound wonderful -- however from my limited work with the 2006 upgrade, it is painfully apparent that the quality comes at a huge cost in labor. We'll end up spending a lot of time in entering the score and then a lot more to get it to sound ever so perfect when played back in GPO. But we'll have to remember to do that work on a copy of the score, so we can maintain a third copy to be optimized for playback through non-GPO devices for sharing with those folks who don't have machines powerful enough to use GPO. It is obvious that for the demos on the web-sites they didn't just take an existing Finale file and divert its output to GPO. Obvious now, but not obvious from anything on the web-sites. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Tyler Turner wrote: Hi Craig, Darcy mentioned it, but I just want to make sure you caught it. For new compositions that you create with the setup wizard, you don't have to do any GPO setup. It's automatically done (and that's a major part of the integration). For older files, yes, you will have to spend some time converting them over. How much conversion is necessary for making a GPO-wizard file sharable with others who don't/can't use GPO for playback? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
ronan wrote: I admit I was somewhat disappointed with the Finale/GPO instruments. To me they didn't sound much better than the Softsynths. But I just got the patch so I can use the full GPO and I've got all those wonderful sounds back. There is a huge difference between the generic solo violin that comes with Finale and the Gagliano (and Stradavari and Guameri) solo violins that come with full GPO. So far, to me, the marriage has been seamless. New files created using the setup wizard automatically use the full GPO patches and expressions trigger the KS instruments as they should (except they don't seem to want to let strings play their first note as pizz. Must be a new rule in music.) So far, I'm happy. And the cost for being happy with the GPO/Finale integration? I mean for those of us who haven't already purchased the full GPO? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Darcy James Argue wrote: [snip] Some people seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations of what GPO is. It is *not* a massive, high-end sample library suitable for professional film scoring. It will *not* fool anybody (or at least, not anybody on this list) into thinking that they are listening to a real orchestra. It is a low-cost, easy-to-use orchestral sample library designed to provide good value for the money and seamless integration with Finale. (And it is *worlds* better than Finale's default sound font, at least when playing back through decent speakers.) By some people are you by any chance referring to the MakeMusic marketing people? Those who published on the web site that the GPO includes more than 100 studio-quality sounds -- that line certainly made me think it might be suitable for professional work. When else does anybody refer to studio-quality except to denote the pinnacle of musical performance? If they had marketed the GPO inclusion in the much more honest terms you used, Darcy, I think those of us who feel burned by MakeMusic wouldn't feel so bad. That MakeMusic spent so much of this upgrade's development resources on including a low-cost, easy-to-use orchestral sample library is what rankles the most. As to seamless integration it seems that may not exactly be true, especially if you wish to share files for playback with someone who doesn't have a machine capable of using GPO. I wonder how GPO-enabled files will playback in the 2006 version of NotePad? After all, that has long been a nice aspect of Finale, that we could share our files with folks who don't use Finale and they could still see them onscreen and hear them so they could make informed decisions about whether they wanted to buy/rent/perform our music. I would hope that MakeMusic would build the new version of NotePad so that will automatically convert all those keyswitch-enabled expressions so they worked like normally playback-enabled expressions. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
I have played around some more with the GPO and I will admit that its sounds really are an improvement over the soundfont. A large improvement? No. But an improvement nonetheless. Worth the majority of the upgrade development effort? No. Does anybody else notice that the green playback indicator for scrolling playback is just a bit (maybe a quarter of a beat at 120) ahead of the sounds? I do see now how to get more than 8 sounds to playback at one time (provided my computer has enough RAM to hold the samples.) I'll have to experiment and see if I can actually get 64 instruments loaded into my 1.8GHz P4 with 1GB of ram. The whole process should be a lot more straightforward than it is, though. Now if there were just more significant engraving improvements or an actually functioning EPS export for Windows. . . I would still appreciate some insight as to why I need to pay for a subscription to SmartMusic to use my own Finale-generated SmartMusic Accompaniment file. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Tyler Turner wrote: Hi Craig, Darcy mentioned it, but I just want to make sure you caught it. For new compositions that you create with the setup wizard, you don't have to do any GPO setup. It's automatically done (and that's a major part of the integration). For older files, yes, you will have to spend some time converting them over. Tyler Well, so far, that seems not to be true. I do a lot of my work with HyperScribe. I need to have metronome tracks. Somebody mentioned that GPO has a clave sound, but it most certainly does not play automatically. I guess if I want to spend a few hours hacking on this thing, I can figure out how to make a GPO score play a metronome track. I would have thought that would be handled. I consider the metronome rather fundamental. And until I have the metronome I cannot say whether the latency involved in rendering GPO will make the whole concept impractical for the compositional phase. In the past, the latency inherent in software synths made it impossible for me to work with it. I ended up with a $50 SoundBlaster Live card that gives me 32 channels of hardware synth with virtually no latency. From what I've seen so far, GPO is a giant step backwards for what I want to do with Finale. I have 4 projects stacked up, so I can't take the time to fart around with this stuff. It is a real disappointment that the functions aren't easy and intuitive to use right out of the box. What I heard of the GPO samples sounded really good. I loved the harp voice for example. If somebody has an easy procedure for making the metronome work with GPO, I might change my opinion. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
- Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO On 29 Jul 2005, at 9:06 PM, John Hughes wrote: Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? Darcy Yes I did, and that was the quality of sound I was expecting, but mine stinks. I have a Sound Blaster Audigy Audio (A400) sound card. So what's the problem? John - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Thanks. Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 12:29 AM, Tyler Turner wrote: --- Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good explanation Tyler ... now, how do you feel about the GPO sounds? Are they as good as the samples provided on the MM site, or not? And if not, what gives? Also, I've just received the following message: Dear Finale Macintosh Customer; In a previous e-mail we informed you of an upgrade installation problem with Finale 2006. In that e-mail we described how to remove a folder from your Macintosh before running the installer. Since then we have created a small program that will automatically find and delete the folder for you. Again, this MUST be run BEFORE you run the Finale 2006 installer. In order for this pre-installer to work properly you must quit all running applications prior to installation. If you haven't already deleted this folder, you can download this program, the Pre-installer for Finale 2006, and run it from your desktop. It will only take a few seconds. Select the link below to download. I downloaded this and activated it, as I have not yet installed my 2006, though it is sitting by my side as I write. I got a message that my system didn't need the pre-installer's benefit. Should I trust this and go ahead with installation ... even if so many are disappointed with GPO sounds? Dean I'm pleased with the GPO sounds. They absolutely require some use of the special Ambience reverb plug-in that's included, and it's possible that some people here haven't had a chance to really experiment with that and find settings that work well. The right reverb settings improve the sound 500%. (disclaimer - I know that there are people on this list who are against the idea of using reverb, but GPO sounds were designed with the idea that reverb would be used) The demos on MakeMusic's webpage are definitely better than average, but they're not unrealistic. I have at least one that I pulled from the Showcase, played from Finale and found I thought sounded better than the demos. There's a lot of variation - some sound great with GPO and others are less of an improvement. You could check to see if the folder that the first e-mail told you to remove is gone. If it's gone, then it should be safe to install. If you're concerned, you could first create a copy of the folder that was getting wiped out. Tyler Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Totally agree. I really think the GPO thing is fluff. I'd rather see Finale get better at importing Midi files. I hate when a Midi that I've done in Digital Performer does not come across correctly in Finale. It happens all the time. It's frustrating, and wastes time. I think it would be a waste of MakeMusic's time to do much more work on the MIDI import. MIDI is not a very good format for representing music notation - it leaves way too much out, making programs guess at what the MIDI files mean. Computer programs aren't very good at guessing. You would get better results if Digital Performer (and Logic, and Cubase) exported MusicXML files. You could then read the notation into either Finale or Sibelius with much greater accuracy than MIDI will ever be able to provide. New notation-based programs like Notion are supporting MusicXML import before they support MIDI import. So I think that the people who can best solve moving files from Digital Performer to Finale are at MOTU rather than MakeMusic. If you agree, please let MOTU know. It means much more if they hear it from customers like you rather than a vendor like us. Best regards, Michael Good Recordare LLC www.recordare.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005, at 12:27 PM, John Hughes wrote: - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? Darcy Yes I did, and that was the quality of sound I was expecting, but mine stinks. I have a Sound Blaster Audigy Audio (A400) sound card. So what's the problem? Well, perhaps if you could be a bit more specific about what you mean by stinks? I don't know anything about PC sound cards, but they shouldn't make that much difference -- we're talking about digital audio here. The demos on the Finale website are a fair representation of the GPO sounds included with Finale. If you are hearing some kind of dramatic difference between the demos and the bundled sounds, there's something wrong. Do you have Ambience enabled? Which GPO instruments sound different from the ones used in the demos? What kind of speakers are you using? What HP settings are you using? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005, at 7:06 AM, dhbailey wrote: Tyler Turner wrote: Hi Craig, Darcy mentioned it, but I just want to make sure you caught it. For new compositions that you create with the setup wizard, you don't have to do any GPO setup. It's automatically done (and that's a major part of the integration). For older files, yes, you will have to spend some time converting them over. How much conversion is necessary for making a GPO-wizard file sharable with others who don't/can't use GPO for playback? None. The Setup Wizard configures for both GPO and Finale soundfont (General MIDI) playback simultaneously. HP handles the rest. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Ok ... just installed 2006 w/out any problems I can detect. Messed around with a couple of instruments in GPO (Eng. Hrn. and Cl.) in a little duet I wrote. I think the quality of the sounds and human playback are excellent, as promised. However, when I added a couple of more instruments, as Darcy predicted, I started getting the crackle and pop because I just running an iMac at 600 Mhz. If I upgrade the processor, I can see no reason at present why I would be unhappy with 2006. Another however, however, in Hyperscribe, out of GPO, the only countoff and click sound I seem to be able to get is my acoustic grand piano. I guess I can live with this, but I'd sure rather have a percussion sound. Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 30 Jul 2005, at 12:27 PM, John Hughes wrote: - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? Darcy Yes I did, and that was the quality of sound I was expecting, but mine stinks. I have a Sound Blaster Audigy Audio (A400) sound card. So what's the problem? Well, perhaps if you could be a bit more specific about what you mean by stinks? I don't know anything about PC sound cards, but they shouldn't make that much difference -- we're talking about digital audio here. The demos on the Finale website are a fair representation of the GPO sounds included with Finale. If you are hearing some kind of dramatic difference between the demos and the bundled sounds, there's something wrong. Do you have Ambience enabled? Which GPO instruments sound different from the ones used in the demos? What kind of speakers are you using? What HP settings are you using? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
- Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO On 30 Jul 2005, at 12:27 PM, John Hughes wrote: - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? Darcy Yes I did, and that was the quality of sound I was expecting, but mine stinks. I have a Sound Blaster Audigy Audio (A400) sound card. So what's the problem? Well, perhaps if you could be a bit more specific about what you mean by stinks? I don't know anything about PC sound cards, but they shouldn't make that much difference -- we're talking about digital audio here. The demos on the Finale website are a fair representation of the GPO sounds included with Finale. If you are hearing some kind of dramatic difference between the demos and the bundled sounds, there's something wrong. Do you have Ambience enabled? Which GPO instruments sound different from the ones used in the demos? What kind of speakers are you using? What HP settings are you using? - Darcy The trumpet, for a start, sounds absolutely nothing like a trumpet. I am a trumpet player and the sound I hear really offends me. As to all the other instruments, even though they vary amongst each other as to degree of reality, they all have unpleasant coloration. My Altec Lansing speakers provide very good sound, so the blame cannot be laid there. The demos I have tried from the internet all sound good, or at least as good as would satisfy me if I could get mine to sound as good. So, in view of the comments from members of the list who say how superior the GPO sounds are, I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. John Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005, at 3:02 PM, John Hughes wrote: The trumpet, for a start, sounds absolutely nothing like a trumpet. I am a trumpet player and the sound I hear really offends me. Everyone's always biased towards their own instrument. Johannes has said that the solo violins sound nothing like solo violins. I'm sure oboe players would say the same of the oboe patch, etc. Again, GPO is a rough approximation (but a vast improvement over the default soundfont, as Jari's excellent demo shows). As to all the other instruments, even though they vary amongst each other as to degree of reality, they all have unpleasant coloration. John, they are exactly the same instruments you heard on the Finale website. If the unpleasant coloration was absent there, then you ought not to have anything to complain about. Have you tried the sounds *in context* (i.e., in an ensemble), with HP and Ambience Reverb on? My Altec Lansing speakers provide very good sound, so the blame cannot be laid there. The demos I have tried from the internet all sound good, or at least as good as would satisfy me if I could get mine to sound as good. So, in view of the comments from members of the list who say how superior the GPO sounds are They are definitely superior to the Finale sound font. Clearly, they are not superior to professional orchestral sample libraries costing thousands of dollars. You have to be realistic in your expectations. I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. Well, how *do* you have things set up at the moment? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Of course you'd like it to work with MusicXML. Isn't that YOUR company? Where is the guess work in MIDI files? Example, I can do something in Digital Performer, load it into Logic, and it looks the same. Triplets come out as triplets. Etc. But I load the same file into Finale, and the triplet comes out wrong. Or maybe Finale decides that a whole note isn't exactly a whole note anymore. Hell, even Cakewalk usually does a better job importing MIDI than Finale. I'm concerned with it just getting the notes and rhythms right, not all the other stuff that goes into music notation. If it could import Midi's 99% better I'd be happy. Michael Good wrote: I think it would be a waste of MakeMusic's time to do much more work on the MIDI import. MIDI is not a very good format for representing music notation - it leaves way too much out, making programs guess at what the MIDI files mean. Computer programs aren't very good at guessing. You would get better results if Digital Performer (and Logic, and Cubase) exported MusicXML files. You could then read the notation into either Finale or Sibelius with much greater accuracy than MIDI will ever be able to provide. New notation-based programs like Notion are supporting MusicXML import before they support MIDI import. So I think that the people who can best solve moving files from Digital Performer to Finale are at MOTU rather than MakeMusic. If you agree, please let MOTU know. It means much more if they hear it from customers like you rather than a vendor like us. Best regards, Michael Good Recordare LLC www.recordare.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Where is the guess work in MIDI files? Example, I can do something in Digital Performer, load it into Logic, and it looks the same. Triplets come out as triplets. Etc. But I load the same file into Finale, and the triplet comes out wrong. Hi eric I'm intrigued, if you have a moment send me a midi file that does this in Finale. Personally I've never run into these sorts of problems. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Where is the setting for Ambiance Reverb? I've missed it somehow. MIDI Native Instruments AU SetUp Ambience Reverb Edit It's at the bottom of the dialog box. Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... just installed 2006 w/out any problems I can detect. Messed around with a couple of instruments in GPO (Eng. Hrn. and Cl.) in a little duet I wrote. I think the quality of the sounds and human playback are excellent, as promised. However, when I added a couple of more instruments, as Darcy predicted, I started getting the crackle and pop because I just running an iMac at 600 Mhz. If I upgrade the processor, I can see no reason at present why I would be unhappy with 2006. Another however, however, in Hyperscribe, out of GPO, the only countoff and click sound I seem to be able to get is my acoustic grand piano. I guess I can live with this, but I'd sure rather have a percussion sound. I believe you can assign that to be channel 10 so you get percussion sounds rather than piano sounds. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
- Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO On 30 Jul 2005, at 3:02 PM, John Hughes wrote: The trumpet, for a start, sounds absolutely nothing like a trumpet. I am a trumpet player and the sound I hear really offends me. Everyone's always biased towards their own instrument. Johannes has said that the solo violins sound nothing like solo violins. I'm sure oboe players would say the same of the oboe patch, etc. Again, GPO is a rough approximation (but a vast improvement over the default soundfont, as Jari's excellent demo shows). As to all the other instruments, even though they vary amongst each other as to degree of reality, they all have unpleasant coloration. John, they are exactly the same instruments you heard on the Finale website. If the unpleasant coloration was absent there, then you ought not to have anything to complain about. Once again - if the sounds I get were as good as the ones on the demo then I would not be complaining. It is precisely because the coloration on my sounds were absent on the demo that is why I am complaining. Have you tried the sounds *in context* (i.e., in an ensemble), with HP and Ambience Reverb on? My Altec Lansing speakers provide very good sound, so the blame cannot be laid there. The demos I have tried from the internet all sound good, or at least as good as would satisfy me if I could get mine to sound as good. So, in view of the comments from members of the list who say how superior the GPO sounds are They are definitely superior to the Finale sound font. Clearly, they are not superior to professional orchestral sample libraries costing thousands of dollars. You have to be realistic in your expectations. I can only surmise that for some reason the problem remains with me. Although, for the life of me I can't see any alterative (that works) to the way I have things set up at the moment. Well, how *do* you have things set up at the moment? MIDI IN SB Audigy Midi Port MIDI OUT Smart Music Soft Synth ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
I thought so myself, and it is on channel 10, but still the piano sounds. Now, interestingly enough, when I tried Hyperscrive in GPO, the countoff and click sound was automatically a percussion sound (kind of like a triangle, I think). H .. Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 3:08 PM, dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... just installed 2006 w/out any problems I can detect. Messed around with a couple of instruments in GPO (Eng. Hrn. and Cl.) in a little duet I wrote. I think the quality of the sounds and human playback are excellent, as promised. However, when I added a couple of more instruments, as Darcy predicted, I started getting the crackle and pop because I just running an iMac at 600 Mhz. If I upgrade the processor, I can see no reason at present why I would be unhappy with 2006. Another however, however, in Hyperscribe, out of GPO, the only countoff and click sound I seem to be able to get is my acoustic grand piano. I guess I can live with this, but I'd sure rather have a percussion sound. I believe you can assign that to be channel 10 so you get percussion sounds rather than piano sounds. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Of course you'd like it to work with MusicXML. Isn't that YOUR company? Where is the guess work in MIDI files? Example, I can do something in Digital Performer, load it into Logic, and it looks the same. Triplets come out as triplets. Etc. But I load the same file into Finale, and the triplet comes out wrong. Or maybe Finale decides that a whole note isn't exactly a whole note anymore. Hell, even Cakewalk usually does a better job importing MIDI than Finale. I'm concerned with it just getting the notes and rhythms right, not all the other stuff that goes into music notation. If it could import Midi's 99% better I'd be happy. Now that MakeMusic have climbed into bed with NativeInstruments and Garritan, they'll next climb into bed with Logic and license their quantization and importing algorithms? Why not? Worse things could happen, our upgrade dollars could certainly be spent much worsely, as long as the midi import is improved. That would also improve Hyperscribe, one would hope, so that Finale could better interpret what we play. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005 at 15:27, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I thought so myself, and it is on channel 10, but still the piano sounds. Now, interestingly enough, when I tried Hyperscrive in GPO, the countoff and click sound was automatically a percussion sound (kind of like a triangle, I think). H .. I've never found Hyperscribe usable, myself, but why would it matter what synth you use for *input*? Can't you switch to the Finale soundfont for Hyperscribe input, and then switch to GPO for playback once the notes are in? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Darcy: Where is the setting for Ambiance Reverb? I've missed it somehow. Under Midi, click on Native Instruments VST Setup. There is a checkbox at the bottom called Ambiance Reverb. There is an edit button next to it. Click the EDIT button and you can then change lots of things about it, but if you're on windows you can't access any presets. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Yes, I could ... not a problem. It's just that when inputting in soundfont, via Hyperscribe, it's easier to deal with a percussive sound, which I haven't been able to get yet. If I understand your question correctly. Thanks, Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 3:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 30 Jul 2005 at 15:27, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I thought so myself, and it is on channel 10, but still the piano sounds. Now, interestingly enough, when I tried Hyperscrive in GPO, the countoff and click sound was automatically a percussion sound (kind of like a triangle, I think). H .. I've never found Hyperscribe usable, myself, but why would it matter what synth you use for *input*? Can't you switch to the Finale soundfont for Hyperscribe input, and then switch to GPO for playback once the notes are in? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Got it, Thanks, Dean On Jul 30, 2005, at 3:46 PM, dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Darcy: Where is the setting for Ambiance Reverb? I've missed it somehow. Under Midi, click on Native Instruments VST Setup. There is a checkbox at the bottom called Ambiance Reverb. There is an edit button next to it. Click the EDIT button and you can then change lots of things about it, but if you're on windows you can't access any presets. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
At 06:40 PM 07/30/2005, dhbailey wrote: Which brings up the question as to why the Ambience Reverb doesn't give us Room Sizes to choose from, at least on the Windows side of things? Is that something to be expected in the maintenance release as well? Yes, according to Winsupport. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
David, HALLELUJAH! At least someone understands what I am getting at. Many thanks for the kind suggestions you put forth in your previous email. Constructive help is so much nicer than sniping. I shall now go forth and put them into practice. In my own defence, I would like to explain that when I received the new software on Thursday I was experiencing a problem with my computer. I could not access the manual. So, I was unable to study just what was involved in setting up GPO. I still haven't had the time to do so. But later on today I shall have the time. Once again, Many thanks, John - Original Message - From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO Darcy James Argue wrote: John, they are exactly the same instruments you heard on the Finale website. If the unpleasant coloration was absent there, then you ought not to have anything to complain about. Have you tried the sounds *in context* (i.e., in an ensemble), with HP and Ambience Reverb on? I think John's point is that he is totally baffled about how to make his files sound like the demo files. He's not saying that the GPO sounds are bad, just that he can't seem to get them to sound good on his computer. That's why one would hope MakeMusic would put the Finale files from which their demos were derived (they were derived from Finale files and not sequences played into a different application, no?) from up somewhere for us to download and to see exactly what settings were used to get those terrific sounding demos. For many of us, simply switching from soundfont to GPO produces very little improvement. We need to know the steps necessary to achieve the same quality as the demos display. Which brings up the question as to why the Ambience Reverb doesn't give us Room Sizes to choose from, at least on the Windows side of things? Is that something to be expected in the maintenance release as well? My Altec Lansing speakers provide very good sound, so the blame cannot be laid there. The demos I have tried from the internet all sound good, or at least as good as would satisfy me if I could get mine to sound as good. So, in view of the comments from members of the list who say how superior the GPO sounds are They are definitely superior to the Finale sound font. Clearly, they are not superior to professional orchestral sample libraries costing thousands of dollars. You have to be realistic in your expectations. The following quotes, from the Garritan web-site: the highest quality collection of orchestral instruments ever sampled (doesn't say in this price range it says EVER) Acclaimed as the most significant sample-based instrument library ever to be produced, GPO has won more awards than any other orchestral library it is the quality of the instruments that drives this package are certainly quotes which lead me to believe it superior to East-West or Vienna Symphony libraries. Either that or Garritan was successful in keeping those libraries from whatever competitions or organizations handed out those awards. The first line I quoted was from Garritan's own ad-copy on the web-site. Okay, I can understand their hyperbole about their own product being a bit of a stretch, but the other two quotes are from outside sources. Those quotes are not exactly what I would expect for a product you describe as not being superior to professional orchestral sample libraries costing thousands of dollars -- it sure sounds as somebody thinks they're the best thing since A440! And that somebody is the company who is building up our expectations -- expectations you are telling us we need to be more realistic about. And that's one major aspect of this whole Finale2006 upgrade debacle -- both MakeMusic and Garritan make it seem as if we will be able easily and without having to sell the farm to buy hardware upgrades to get fantastic sounding representations of our scores. We just want to know how so we can get back to engraving and composing and be done with all this. Nobody ever mentioned large learning curve in the publicity. :-o -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
I just finished setting up a symphonic score with 40 instruments, using Finale with the full version of GPO. I have each percussion instrument set to a different channel. Eg, Snare: 67; tamtam = 68, etc. They play back beautifully. BTW, I didn't bother with midi assignments. I left all of them pointing to the acoustic Grand Piano because I am not interested in midi. Channel 10 does not exist in Kontakt and is only of use if you are planning to produce midi output. Ron Ronald J Brown PO Box 138 Newboro ON K0G 1P0 (613) 272-3181 http://www.RonaldJBrown.com -Original Message- From: dhbailey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 30, 2005 6:08 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... just installed 2006 w/out any problems I can detect. Messed around with a couple of instruments in GPO (Eng. Hrn. and Cl.) in a little duet I wrote. I think the quality of the sounds and human playback are excellent, as promised. However, when I added a couple of more instruments, as Darcy predicted, I started getting the crackle and pop because I just running an iMac at 600 Mhz. If I upgrade the processor, I can see no reason at present why I would be unhappy with 2006. Another however, however, in Hyperscribe, out of GPO, the only countoff and click sound I seem to be able to get is my acoustic grand piano. I guess I can live with this, but I'd sure rather have a percussion sound. I believe you can assign that to be channel 10 so you get percussion sounds rather than piano sounds. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Well, my copy arrived, and installed, and eventually got GPO registered and Finale registered. Can anybody explain why soundfont instruments playback at one volume while Kontakt instruments playback so much louder? With all the volume controls set to the same? Can anybody explain why the solo clarinet sound in Kontakt/GPO doesn't sount any better than the clarinet in the included soundfont? I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about -- the GPO sounds, coming through the same speakers, don't sound any better than the soundfont sounds. The mid-measure repeat plug-in is pretty good, it does take into account the partial measures in renumbering things. That's impressive. Deleting a measure somewhere before the mid-measure-repeat section also adjusts the measure numbering, including the partial measures. That's impressive. The addition of 64 more midi channels is impressive, so that even for those of us for whom GPO isn't the be-all and end-all of playback, we can use as many midi devices as we choose, and get better playback. That's impressive. It opened up a Finale2005 file without any problems, that's impressive. One thing I can't figure out is where all the demo files got installed to on my computer. I also noticed what looked like a lot of .sf2 files being installed but can't find them on my computer. Does anybody know what's going on with them? David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 1:58 PM, dhbailey wrote: Well, my copy arrived, and installed, and eventually got GPO registered and Finale registered. Can anybody explain why soundfont instruments playback at one volume while Kontakt instruments playback so much louder? With all the volume controls set to the same? Can anybody explain why the solo clarinet sound in Kontakt/GPO doesn't sount any better than the clarinet in the included soundfont? I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about -- the GPO sounds, coming through the same speakers, don't sound any better than the soundfont sounds. The mid-measure repeat plug-in is pretty good, it does take into account the partial measures in renumbering things. That's impressive. Deleting a measure somewhere before the mid-measure-repeat section also adjusts the measure numbering, including the partial measures. That's impressive. The addition of 64 more midi channels is impressive, so that even for those of us for whom GPO isn't the be-all and end-all of playback, we can use as many midi devices as we choose, and get better playback. That's impressive. It opened up a Finale2005 file without any problems, that's impressive. One thing I can't figure out is where all the demo files got installed to on my computer. I also noticed what looked like a lot of .sf2 files being installed but can't find them on my computer. Does anybody know what's going on with them? David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Um, GPO sounds a lot better overall. I'm a little disappointed that Smart Music doesn't use the GPO yet. I'd love to ditch the lame piano it uses in favor of the Steinway in GPO. Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? Dean ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? I won't say they're no better, but I surely don't understand the fuss unless you are using Finale strictly as a sequencer. In that case, maybe that last 1% of realism is worth it, but I cannot understand why anybody using Finale to compose or arrange music would want to spend even an extra 10 minutes fussing with GPO -- let alone the hours that it will actually take. I've never really considered Finale a serious sequencer program. Maybe if I change my outlook on that, I would also think differently about GPO. But fundamentally I have a dim view of technology that is so distracting that you can barely remember the art you were trying to create. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Totally agree. I really think the GPO thing is fluff. I'd rather see Finale get better at importing Midi files. I hate when a Midi that I've done in Digital Performer does not come across correctly in Finale. It happens all the time. It's frustrating, and wastes time. Craig Parmerlee wrote: I won't say they're no better, but I surely don't understand the fuss unless you are using Finale strictly as a sequencer. In that case, maybe that last 1% of realism is worth it, but I cannot understand why anybody using Finale to compose or arrange music would want to spend even an extra 10 minutes fussing with GPO -- let alone the hours that it will actually take. I've never really considered Finale a serious sequencer program. Maybe if I change my outlook on that, I would also think differently about GPO. But fundamentally I have a dim view of technology that is so distracting that you can barely remember the art you were trying to create. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. John - Original Message - From: Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 1:58 PM, dhbailey wrote: Well, my copy arrived, and installed, and eventually got GPO registered and Finale registered. Can anybody explain why soundfont instruments playback at one volume while Kontakt instruments playback so much louder? With all the volume controls set to the same? Can anybody explain why the solo clarinet sound in Kontakt/GPO doesn't sount any better than the clarinet in the included soundfont? I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about -- the GPO sounds, coming through the same speakers, don't sound any better than the soundfont sounds. The mid-measure repeat plug-in is pretty good, it does take into account the partial measures in renumbering things. That's impressive. Deleting a measure somewhere before the mid-measure-repeat section also adjusts the measure numbering, including the partial measures. That's impressive. The addition of 64 more midi channels is impressive, so that even for those of us for whom GPO isn't the be-all and end-all of playback, we can use as many midi devices as we choose, and get better playback. That's impressive. It opened up a Finale2005 file without any problems, that's impressive. One thing I can't figure out is where all the demo files got installed to on my computer. I also noticed what looked like a lot of .sf2 files being installed but can't find them on my computer. Does anybody know what's going on with them? David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 29 Jul 2005, at 9:06 PM, John Hughes wrote: Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. You mean you didn't listen to the samples available on both the MakeMusic and Garritan websites before you bought the upgrade? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
--- Craig Parmerlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? I won't say they're no better, but I surely don't understand the fuss unless you are using Finale strictly as a sequencer. In that case, maybe that last 1% of realism is worth it, but I cannot understand why anybody using Finale to compose or arrange music would want to spend even an extra 10 minutes fussing with GPO -- let alone the hours that it will actually take. I've never really considered Finale a serious sequencer program. Maybe if I change my outlook on that, I would also think differently about GPO. But fundamentally I have a dim view of technology that is so distracting that you can barely remember the art you were trying to create. Hi Craig, Darcy mentioned it, but I just want to make sure you caught it. For new compositions that you create with the setup wizard, you don't have to do any GPO setup. It's automatically done (and that's a major part of the integration). For older files, yes, you will have to spend some time converting them over. Tyler __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
I admit I was somewhat disappointed with the Finale/GPO instruments. To me they didn't sound much better than the Softsynths. But I just got the patch so I can use the full GPO and I've got all those wonderful sounds back. There is a huge difference between the generic solo violin that comes with Finale and the Gagliano (and Stradavari and Guameri) solo violins that come with full GPO. So far, to me, the marriage has been seamless. New files created using the setup wizard automatically use the full GPO patches and expressions trigger the KS instruments as they should (except they don't seem to want to let strings play their first note as pizz. Must be a new rule in music.) So far, I'm happy. Ron Ronald J Brown PO Box 138 Newboro ON K0G 1P0 (613) 272-3181 http://www.RonaldJBrown.com -Original Message- From: Dean M. Estabrook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 29, 2005 5:15 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? Dean ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
--- John Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mine sound just awful. I bought Fin2006 purely on the promise that I could at last hear my work sound something like real. But I'm afraid I was very disappointed. The same with Finale's HP. I could never use it. John Hi John, My findings have been very different, although the amount of improvement can vary a lot with the type of music and the methods of using GPO and HP. If you'd be willing to send me a Finale file or two, I'd be willing to see if I could set things up in a way that sounds better than what you're getting. If I end up with a result that you like better, I'd be happy to share any tips. I might not be able to make any improvement, but it can't hurt to try. Tyler __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Good explanation Tyler ... now, how do you feel about the GPO sounds? Are they as good as the samples provided on the MM site, or not? And if not, what gives? Also, I've just received the following message: Dear Finale Macintosh Customer; In a previous e-mail we informed you of an upgrade installation problem with Finale 2006. In that e-mail we described how to remove a folder from your Macintosh before running the installer. Since then we have created a small program that will automatically find and delete the folder for you. Again, this MUST be run BEFORE you run the Finale 2006 installer. In order for this pre-installer to work properly you must quit all running applications prior to installation. If you haven't already deleted this folder, you can download this program, the Pre-installer for Finale 2006, and run it from your desktop. It will only take a few seconds. Select the link below to download. I downloaded this and activated it, as I have not yet installed my 2006, though it is sitting by my side as I write. I got a message that my system didn't need the pre-installer's benefit. Should I trust this and go ahead with installation ... even if so many are disappointed with GPO sounds? Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Tyler Turner wrote: --- Craig Parmerlee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? I won't say they're no better, but I surely don't understand the fuss unless you are using Finale strictly as a sequencer. In that case, maybe that last 1% of realism is worth it, but I cannot understand why anybody using Finale to compose or arrange music would want to spend even an extra 10 minutes fussing with GPO -- let alone the hours that it will actually take. I've never really considered Finale a serious sequencer program. Maybe if I change my outlook on that, I would also think differently about GPO. But fundamentally I have a dim view of technology that is so distracting that you can barely remember the art you were trying to create. Hi Craig, Darcy mentioned it, but I just want to make sure you caught it. For new compositions that you create with the setup wizard, you don't have to do any GPO setup. It's automatically done (and that's a major part of the integration). For older files, yes, you will have to spend some time converting them over. Tyler __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Ah, forget my previous question. Thanks, Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 8:19 PM, ronan wrote: I admit I was somewhat disappointed with the Finale/GPO instruments. To me they didn't sound much better than the Softsynths. But I just got the patch so I can use the full GPO and I've got all those wonderful sounds back. There is a huge difference between the generic solo violin that comes with Finale and the Gagliano (and Stradavari and Guameri) solo violins that come with full GPO. So far, to me, the marriage has been seamless. New files created using the setup wizard automatically use the full GPO patches and expressions trigger the KS instruments as they should (except they don't seem to want to let strings play their first note as pizz. Must be a new rule in music.) So far, I'm happy. Ron Ronald J Brown PO Box 138 Newboro ON K0G 1P0 (613) 272-3181 http://www.RonaldJBrown.com -Original Message- From: Dean M. Estabrook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 29, 2005 5:15 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO Ok ... so I'd like to hear someone else confirm that the GPO sounds are no better at all than standard soundfonts. True? No? What's the concensus? Dean ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
On 30 Jul 2005, at 12:54 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Yeah, I listened to the samples on both sites Darcy mentioned, and was most impressed. That's why I bought Fin 2006. Are not the sounds available in the package as we purchased it the same we heard in the samples? If so, I can't imagine being disappointed with them. Dean, The examples on MakeMusic's website were created using the GPO Finale Edition that comes with Finale 2006. The sounds you get will sound like that. Unfortunately, your current computer doesn't really have the horsepower to play them well, but if you are happy with the MP3 demos MakeMusic provided, you should be happy with the results once you upgrade your machine. What you hear is what you get, basically. Some people seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations of what GPO is. It is *not* a massive, high-end sample library suitable for professional film scoring. It will *not* fool anybody (or at least, not anybody on this list) into thinking that they are listening to a real orchestra. It is a low-cost, easy-to-use orchestral sample library designed to provide good value for the money and seamless integration with Finale. (And it is *worlds* better than Finale's default sound font, at least when playing back through decent speakers.) - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Dean, I downloaded and ran the pre-installer and installed the retail Fin2006 today without incident. I would recommend making a backup of everything in your ~/Application Support folder (where ~ is your home user folder first, but I didn't have any problem once I ran the pre-installer. And once again, the GPO demos on the MakeMusic site were done with GPO Finale Edition and accurately represent the quality of the samples. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Darcy: Many thanks for the good info and optimism on this interesting day. So, if the pre-installer says my system doesn't require it's use, you figure (since I have backed up the folder in question as well as my Address Book) that it's probably ok to go ahead and install? I'll mess around with my machine and the program for a bit, and if not satisfied, I'll probably bite the bullet and upgrade. I may have several questions about configurations, etc. Please don't leave the country for awhile. Thanks again for all the help ... it must be really late in NYC. Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Dean, I downloaded and ran the pre-installer and installed the retail Fin2006 today without incident. I would recommend making a backup of everything in your ~/Application Support folder (where ~ is your home user folder first, but I didn't have any problem once I ran the pre-installer. And once again, the GPO demos on the MakeMusic site were done with GPO Finale Edition and accurately represent the quality of the samples. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Hey Dean, You should be just fine, but one final thing I would recommend just as a precaution: Launch Address Book, and from the File menu choose Back Up Database. After that, you should be good to go. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 30 Jul 2005, at 1:43 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Darcy: Many thanks for the good info and optimism on this interesting day. So, if the pre-installer says my system doesn't require it's use, you figure (since I have backed up the folder in question as well as my Address Book) that it's probably ok to go ahead and install? I'll mess around with my machine and the program for a bit, and if not satisfied, I'll probably bite the bullet and upgrade. I may have several questions about configurations, etc. Please don't leave the country for awhile. Thanks again for all the help ... it must be really late in NYC. Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Dean, I downloaded and ran the pre-installer and installed the retail Fin2006 today without incident. I would recommend making a backup of everything in your ~/Application Support folder (where ~ is your home user folder first, but I didn't have any problem once I ran the pre-installer. And once again, the GPO demos on the MakeMusic site were done with GPO Finale Edition and accurately represent the quality of the samples. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Finale2006 and GPO
Wilco, Have a good nite's sleep. Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:51 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hey Dean, You should be just fine, but one final thing I would recommend just as a precaution: Launch Address Book, and from the File menu choose Back Up Database. After that, you should be good to go. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 30 Jul 2005, at 1:43 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Darcy: Many thanks for the good info and optimism on this interesting day. So, if the pre-installer says my system doesn't require it's use, you figure (since I have backed up the folder in question as well as my Address Book) that it's probably ok to go ahead and install? I'll mess around with my machine and the program for a bit, and if not satisfied, I'll probably bite the bullet and upgrade. I may have several questions about configurations, etc. Please don't leave the country for awhile. Thanks again for all the help ... it must be really late in NYC. Dean On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Dean, I downloaded and ran the pre-installer and installed the retail Fin2006 today without incident. I would recommend making a backup of everything in your ~/Application Support folder (where ~ is your home user folder first, but I didn't have any problem once I ran the pre-installer. And once again, the GPO demos on the MakeMusic site were done with GPO Finale Edition and accurately represent the quality of the samples. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale As a newly diagnosed diabetic, self denial is now my ally, exercise my master. Dean M. Estabrook Retired Church Musician Composer, Arranger Adjudicator Amateur Golfer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
