Subject: Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
Hi, Also keep in mind your trombone players! Unless playing 1st-position notes, both hands are in-play, as it were... -Steve S NYC Message: 4 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:30:38 -0500 From: Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca Subject: Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed Piano and guitar are not as critical, because if they don't comp for a second, there's no big loss (but not both in the same measure!) No page turns during figures or solos for them, though! Bass: the open strings can be used for page turns if you can't find a one-bar rest anywhere. Drums: during ensemble figures is a bad time to turn, but if he is just playing time then he can turn with his left while riding with his right. I found myself phoning the contractor once to find out if the tuba player was playing a BBb or a C tuba, so I could choose a page turn measure when he wasn't using his right hand! That, if I do say so myself, is hard core... Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
In a message dated 12/12/2008 21:14:47 GMT Standard Time, steves...@aol.com writes: Also keep in mind your trombone players! Unless playing 1st-position notes, both hands are in-play, as it were... And horn players who, if they take the hand out of the bell to turn pages will become horribly sharp! lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
Haha, since I inadvertently started this interesting debate I dare to comment it :-) My original situation was quite simple - a big band arrangement with an open 32 -bar section for solos. All repeats but the last are identical. No backgrounds or anything in this particular solo section (there are others)to take into consideration. Only little problem is that the last chord needs to be different in the last turn...so therefore the pi/g/b needs to have this written out so they can lead harmonically to the next section after the open solo. I selected different endings, with the obvious drawback that all other parts gets it too even though there are no differences for them. So that was my question: what is the advice from a notational perspective to make this look good. I fully agree and understand that all players should have the same roadmap so that is how it looks now and I am pleased with the structure. And I appreciate as always all the useful views on things like this with all the experience that exists in this forum. Next time I might however consider to do it even simpler: why not write in the last chord for the rhythm section: G7(b9) / Last X: Bb13. Well, it might not be better either :-| Need to think about that. But to comment on the general discussion about repeats being outdated: for solo sections they are still a must. And as a musician myself I can also get a little frustrated sometimes that from the old complex-repeat-structure-to-save-paper-and-time to the new era of copy-paste-everything-since-this-is-done-on-a-computer!. When I get a part with 6 pages and realize that with some proper planning and structure with simple and effective repeats and D.S. markings you could have it in 3 it feels like a waste of page-turning, paper and hassle. Not to mention the fact that if you need to make a pencil marking for whatever reason in a certain place and the identical section (and need for pencil marking) comes 3 more times in the same part...then note that this is also time consuming and potentially erroneous especially if you miss to identify any identical section. So I guess as always: the keyword must be *balance*. Try to avoid repeats and D.S.-markings etc if omitting them makes the picture clearer. But use them if they are reasonably obvious and efficient and especially if the alternative would be to do unnecessary and lengthy copy-paste stuff. Just my $0.02 /D On Dec 10, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Horace Brock wrote: If think the Broadway books are bad (and I've played them), wait till you see brass band music published by the Salvation Army. I hate to play topper (no really, I kind of like it!) but the worst by far are salsa and merengue charts, especially those otherwise pretty good ones that are making the rounds from a transcription service in Venezuela or Peru or some place like that. Nested repeats (repeated sections inside a repeat), overlapped repeats (jumping back to a place INSIDE a repeat!) double or triple DSes and double or triple codas, sometimes with instructions on what gets played twice or six times on which repeat in Spanish, so if your Spanish isn't so hot (like mine) then you are left puzzling while the Cuban trumpet player next to you who never seems to get tired (and those parts are HIGH!) rips through it like he owns it without a pause. Plus the guy who copied them with a nib pen never seems to connect his stems to his noteheads and sometimes goes for long passages with the stems on the wrong side of the notehead and who can tell the eighth rests from the quarter rests? as both are indecipherable squiggles. Once I've been through them a few times and practically memorized them (taking my cue from the trumpet player!) they are a hoot to play and sound really good, but the copying and layout are the WORST! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
Good repeats are nice simple ones that just repeat a whole passage, especially if they economise on pages turns. Bad repeats are those that say first time round jump to B, second time round play these 8 measures, then jump to D, third time round play everything up to E, then jump to Coda without passing Go (do not collect $200). On 10 Dec 2008, at 23:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As this whole repeat thing is one of my pet peeves, I'm now going to mount my soapbox. Realizing that in some circumstances repeats may be necessary or even preferable, I believe that in most cases they are outdated. Since music no longer needs to be hand copied, it make little sense to use these old-fashioned short cuts. Just copy and paste. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As this whole repeat thing is one of my pet peeves, I'm now going to mount my soapbox. Realizing that in some circumstances repeats may be necessary or even preferable, I believe that in most cases they are outdated. Since music no longer needs to be hand copied, it make little sense to use these old-fashioned short cuts. Just copy and paste. Although many won't tell you unless you ask pretty directly, most orchestral musicians would much rather just play straight through. The less we have to expend precious mental resources on not being lost or confused, the more we have to use on music making. More mistakes (especially in rehearsal) are made at the seams in the music than anywhere else so don't put in extra ones. Especially the complex nested types. End of rant. Richard Smith [1]http://www.rgsmithmusic.com Christopher Smith wrote: [snip] Richard's rant is fine to a point, and it is important to note that he is saying most orchestral musicians. For some reason they never got the practice that band musicians get for playing music with repeats, although with all those minuets in Haydn and Mozart I don't understand how they missed that lesson. However, in their defense, it's the repeats in longer movements such as the first or final movements in major works, where the repeat goes back over several pages, that cause the most problems. But for goodness' sake, in band music which may very well be played outdoors, the fewer page turns the better! There's nothing worse than having to flip the paper over (including messing with clothespins or windclips). Far better in band music to use repeats when you can and keep the music on fewer pages. Jazz bands seem not to have problems with repeats, DC / DS, codas, etc. No musician, in my opinion, should have any problem with any of that stuff, assuming (of course) that the form is easy to see and clearly marked with large symbols. Imagine a Strauss waltz such as Tales From the Vienna Woods written out in straight form from start to end -- each part would be 30 pages long! Why deforest North America simply because the musicians can't figure out the form? ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On 11 Dec 2008 at 8:19, Dan Tillberg wrote: And as a musician myself I can also get a little frustrated sometimes that from the old complex-repeat-structure-to-save-paper-and-time to the new era of copy-paste-everything-since-this-is-done-on-a-computer!. I had a case just yesterday where mirrors should have been perfect (I was creating a 2-sided printout that was going to be cut in half, so I needed passage A at the top of page 1 and passage B at the bottom, and page 2 needed to reverse that, with B on top and A on the bottom (so it could be photocopied back-to-back). A mirror would have been perfect, but I couldn't figure out how to make it work, and just copied and pasted. And then the corrections had to be made in two places. One fortunate thing was that the lyrics were linked the same in both copies, so fixing the accents grave that I misread as acute was pretty easy. But the mirror would have been a lot easier, if it only had a user interface that was discoverable (at least for me). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
At 9:51 AM +0100 12/11/08, Florence + Michael wrote: Good repeats are nice simple ones that just repeat a whole passage, especially if they economise on pages turns. Bad repeats are those that say first time round jump to B, second time round play these 8 measures, then jump to D, third time round play everything up to E, then jump to Coda without passing Go (do not collect $200). Gee, you must have seen some of the late medieval manuscripts of dance pieces, which do exactly that and use a vocabulary of repeat signs to try to make it clear! But of course in those days, space on a page was REALLY dear, since every page of vellum had to be hand-prepared from animal skin. I have to say that the horror story about salsa or Salvation Army charts struck a horrid chord for me. The last time I tried to save arranging time (gotta have it ready for rehearsal in 20 minutes!) with nested repeats and multiple da segni WAS the last time, and I'll never do it again, because it cost me big time in rehearsal time and confusion. But when it comes to a choice between using repeats and having more page turns--especially BAD page turns--the situation isn't nearly as straightforward. As a string player I'm used to having a stand partner to turn pages--or to being that stand partner myself. But as a wind player I really feel like cussing out editors who blithely ignore bad or impossible page turns. And of course in jazz or commercial charts this is a special problem in rhythm section parts, where there ARE no rests! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On 11-Dec-08, at 11-Dec-08 12:44 PM, John Howell wrote: As a string player I'm used to having a stand partner to turn pages--or to being that stand partner myself. But as a wind player I really feel like cussing out editors who blithely ignore bad or impossible page turns. And of course in jazz or commercial charts this is a special problem in rhythm section parts, where there ARE no rests! Yeah, you get real good at finding places for the rhythm players to turn pages! Piano and guitar are not as critical, because if they don't comp for a second, there's no big loss (but not both in the same measure!) No page turns during figures or solos for them, though! Bass: the open strings can be used for page turns if you can't find a one-bar rest anywhere. Drums: during ensemble figures is a bad time to turn, but if he is just playing time then he can turn with his left while riding with his right. I found myself phoning the contractor once to find out if the tuba player was playing a BBb or a C tuba, so I could choose a page turn measure when he wasn't using his right hand! That, if I do say so myself, is hard core... Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On 10 Dec 2008, at 2:59 AM, Dan Tillberg wrote: Would it be advicable to make the parts so that only instruments with differences have these different endings, while others don't? Definitely not. Or would it be better to anyway, for rehearsal simplicity, make all parts equal in this aspects? Yes. All parts must have the same roadmap. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
Well I almost expected that answer :-) Just wanted to be fully convinced myself. Thanks for putting it straight-forward! /D On 10 Dec 2008, at 2:59 AM, Dan Tillberg wrote: Would it be advicable to make the parts so that only instruments with differences have these different endings, while others don't? Definitely not. Or would it be better to anyway, for rehearsal simplicity, make all parts equal in this aspects? Yes. All parts must have the same roadmap. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On Dec 10, 2008, at 2:59 AM, Dan Tillberg wrote: When looking at a part where there are for example full bar rests in both first and second ending, it makes sense in a way but it looks a bit...unnecessary...or even a bit funny perhaps. I know Darcy got to you within minutes (he must smell these questions coming from the computer while he's asleep!) but I just wanted to add my weight to his answer. I assure you, experienced readers don't find it funny at all to have empty 1st and 2nd endings. They are completely normal. Would it be advicable to make the parts so that only instruments with differences have these different endings, while others don't? Not only not advisable, but a bit kludgy to accomplish. Or would it be better to anyway, for rehearsal simplicity, make all parts equal in this aspects? The last thing you want is to say in rehearsal Take it at the second ending and have half the band say, What? The aspect of Finale that forces you to have the same roadmap between all parts and the score has probably saved more rehearsal time worldwide than any other single thing I can point to. Now, I don't honestly even know if Finale 2007 supports to have different ending setup for different parts. Does it? You need to preserve measure numbering so that it is the same, which involves editing measure regions, you have to do this on extracted parts, not linked parts, etc., etc. My advice is don't bother. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
At 8:55 AM -0500 12/10/08, Christopher Smith wrote: The last thing you want is to say in rehearsal Take it at the second ending and have half the band say, What? The aspect of Finale that forces you to have the same roadmap between all parts and the score has probably saved more rehearsal time worldwide than any other single thing I can point to. Hear, hear!!! I've actually run into that very thing in Broadway books, specifically in The King I. I was asked to make a cut at a certain point in a certain number, discovered that some parts had repeated bars (and LONG endings!) while others did not, and it probably took us at least 15-20 minutes to solve that stupid problem. It probably saved the copyist something like 10 minutes work, and has been plaguing musical directors and wasting time in the pit ever since! This does, however, bring up the question (again! it's been discussed before) of how to handle bar numbers in multiple endings. Number the first ending bars but not the second? Use duplicate numbers in the 2nd ending? Just number straight through, giving each ending it's own numbers? My feeling (and my practice) has always been that every bar should have its own unique number to avoid confusion in rehearsal, regardless of repeat marks, and I have NEVER thought of bar numbers as outlining the form of the piece. Is there actually a standard? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On Dec 10, 2008, at 11:27 AM, John Howell wrote: This does, however, bring up the question (again! it's been discussed before) of how to handle bar numbers in multiple endings. Number the first ending bars but not the second? Use duplicate numbers in the 2nd ending? Just number straight through, giving each ending it's own numbers? My feeling (and my practice) has always been that every bar should have its own unique number to avoid confusion in rehearsal, regardless of repeat marks, and I have NEVER thought of bar numbers as outlining the form of the piece. Is there actually a standard? What you said. If it has a measure, it gets numbered consecutively. I never had much patience for going through and numbering bar 1 as bar 1-9 just because there was an eight-measure repeat. Everyone knows that bar 1 gets played twice in that case, so just say, Start at bar 1 first time or Start at bar 1 second time (or tacet it, or delete it, or play it softer, or whatever needs to be said.) Now, I AM glad that I can set measure number regions so that my parts agree with the existing choral parts, or existing piano part, or whatever. I will gladly screw with that for a couple of minutes to save rehearsal time once the whole thing gets thrown together with not enough rehearsal. That part of Finale is a god-send! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On 10 Dec 2008 at 11:27, John Howell wrote: I've actually run into that very thing in Broadway books, specifically in The King I. I was asked to make a cut at a certain point in a certain number, discovered that some parts had repeated bars (and LONG endings!) while others did not, and it probably took us at least 15-20 minutes to solve that stupid problem. It probably saved the copyist something like 10 minutes work, and has been plaguing musical directors and wasting time in the pit ever since! And yet, in the 18th and early 19th century, this was incredibly common in both MSS music and in printed editions. For both, it may not have been a matter of saving copying/engraving time, but of saving paper, which was relatively more expensive than paying the copyist/engraver. Of course, it's also the case that a lot of old sources that were clearly used have uncorrected errors in them (wrong notes, even missing measures), so it's unclear to me how they managed to use them. I'm certainly not arguing for the practice, just pointing out that there was once a time when the balance of rehearsal time vs. savings came out, apparently, differently. This does, however, bring up the question (again! it's been discussed before) of how to handle bar numbers in multiple endings. Number the first ending bars but not the second? Use duplicate numbers in the 2nd ending? Just number straight through, giving each ending it's own numbers? My feeling (and my practice) has always been that every bar should have its own unique number to avoid confusion in rehearsal, regardless of repeat marks, and I have NEVER thought of bar numbers as outlining the form of the piece. Is there actually a standard? I don't know if there's a standard. I have always questioned the authority of even our respected books on notation, since however much they try, they can't deal with every situation. But I think the way you describe it is the very simplest way to do it. It's also the easiest to implement in Finale! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
David W. Fenton wrote: On 10 Dec 2008 at 11:27, John Howell wrote: I've actually run into that very thing in Broadway books, specifically in The King I. I was asked to make a cut at a certain point in a certain number, discovered that some parts had repeated bars (and LONG endings!) while others did not, and it probably took us at least 15-20 minutes to solve that stupid problem. It probably saved the copyist something like 10 minutes work, and has been plaguing musical directors and wasting time in the pit ever since! And yet, in the 18th and early 19th century, this was incredibly common in both MSS music and in printed editions. For both, it may not have been a matter of saving copying/engraving time, but of saving paper, which was relatively more expensive than paying the copyist/engraver. Of course, it's also the case that a lot of old sources that were clearly used have uncorrected errors in them (wrong notes, even missing measures), so it's unclear to me how they managed to use them. I'm certainly not arguing for the practice, just pointing out that there was once a time when the balance of rehearsal time vs. savings came out, apparently, differently. I think that in the time period of which you are speaking there was much more consistency of form and of expectations from the musicians. They sort of knew where to go and when, sort of the way jazz musicians know when playing from a head arrangement. In a common language it's easy to use abbreviations which get everybody to the same place at the same time even if by different routes. It's only when such commonality is lost that confusion begins to set in and valuable rehearsal time is lost. Heck, even with Strauss waltzes when they have the same first/second endings in all the parts, people get confused about where to go back to when, from which D.S., etc. simply because as a general rule people these days aren't used to playing that sort of convoluted form. But I'm sure Strauss's musicians had no problem with such things, even when presented with a new waltz. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
As this whole repeat thing is one of my pet peeves, I'm now going to mount my soapbox. Realizing that in some circumstances repeats may be necessary or even preferable, I believe that in most cases they are outdated. Since music no longer needs to be hand copied, it make little sense to use these old-fashioned short cuts. Just copy and paste. Although many won't tell you unless you ask pretty directly, most orchestral musicians would much rather just play straight through. The less we have to expend precious mental resources on not being lost or confused, the more we have to use on music making. More mistakes (especially in rehearsal) are made at the seams in the music than anywhere else so don't put in extra ones. Especially the complex nested types. End of rant. Richard Smith [1]http://www.rgsmithmusic.com Christopher Smith wrote: On Dec 10, 2008, at 2:59 AM, Dan Tillberg wrote: When looking at a part where there are for example full bar rests in both first and second ending, it makes sense in a way but it looks a bit...unnecessary...or even a bit funny perhaps. I know Darcy got to you within minutes (he must smell these questions coming from the computer while he's asleep!) but I just wanted to add my weight to his answer. I assure you, experienced readers don't find it funny at all to have empty 1st and 2nd endings. They are completely normal. Would it be advicable to make the parts so that only instruments with differences have these different endings, while others don't? Not only not advisable, but a bit kludgy to accomplish. Or would it be better to anyway, for rehearsal simplicity, make all parts equal in this aspects? The last thing you want is to say in rehearsal Take it at the second ending and have half the band say, What? The aspect of Finale that forces you to have the same roadmap between all parts and the score has probably saved more rehearsal time worldwide than any other single thing I can point to. Now, I don't honestly even know if Finale 2007 supports to have different ending setup for different parts. Does it? You need to preserve measure numbering so that it is the same, which involves editing measure regions, you have to do this on extracted parts, not linked parts, etc., etc. My advice is don't bother. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale References 1. http://www.rgsmithmusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
I like repeats - it's means I don't have to tax tired and precious brain cells on working out that I'm playing what I just played and sorted out five minutes ago. Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
If think the Broadway books are bad (and I've played them), wait till you see brass band music published by the Salvation Army. I don't know if they're trying to save paper or what, but one part will have two baqrs and a six-bar 1st ending, another will have four bars and a 4-bar ending, another will have 8 bars and just a repeat sign (both endings identical), and the score has no repeats at all! On top of that, they'll put a rehearsal letter or maybe two INSIDE the first ending. Every player needs a guidebook to find the way through the part. AND in my band, we have to enlarge all the parts because they're printed almost microscopically. Notes look like flyspecks. There's no convention that I know of, but oh, how I wish! Horace Brock On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:15:03 -0500, you wrote: On 10 Dec 2008 at 11:27, John Howell wrote: I've actually run into that very thing in Broadway books, specifically in The King I. I was asked to make a cut at a certain point in a certain number, discovered that some parts had repeated bars (and LONG endings!) while others did not, and it probably took us at least 15-20 minutes to solve that stupid problem. It probably saved the copyist something like 10 minutes work, and has been plaguing musical directors and wasting time in the pit ever since! And yet, in the 18th and early 19th century, this was incredibly common in both MSS music and in printed editions. For both, it may not have been a matter of saving copying/engraving time, but of saving paper, which was relatively more expensive than paying the copyist/engraver. Of course, it's also the case that a lot of old sources that were clearly used have uncorrected errors in them (wrong notes, even missing measures), so it's unclear to me how they managed to use them. I'm certainly not arguing for the practice, just pointing out that there was once a time when the balance of rehearsal time vs. savings came out, apparently, differently. This does, however, bring up the question (again! it's been discussed before) of how to handle bar numbers in multiple endings. Number the first ending bars but not the second? Use duplicate numbers in the 2nd ending? Just number straight through, giving each ending it's own numbers? My feeling (and my practice) has always been that every bar should have its own unique number to avoid confusion in rehearsal, regardless of repeat marks, and I have NEVER thought of bar numbers as outlining the form of the piece. Is there actually a standard? I don't know if there's a standard. I have always questioned the authority of even our respected books on notation, since however much they try, they can't deal with every situation. But I think the way you describe it is the very simplest way to do it. It's also the easiest to implement in Finale! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On 10 Dec 2008 at 17:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As this whole repeat thing is one of my pet peeves, I'm now going to mount my soapbox. Realizing that in some circumstances repeats may be necessary or even preferable, I believe that in most cases they are outdated. Since music no longer needs to be hand copied, it make little sense to use these old-fashioned short cuts. Just copy and paste. That works fine if you're *done* with the music. However, I find that almost any score, whether composed/arranged by me or copied from some other source, needs tweaking after it's been finalized. That means making the changes in more than one place for music that is identical. Although many won't tell you unless you ask pretty directly, most orchestral musicians would much rather just play straight through. The less we have to expend precious mental resources on not being lost or confused, the more we have to use on music making. More mistakes (especially in rehearsal) are made at the seams in the music than anywhere else so don't put in extra ones. Especially the complex nested types. Well, I can agree on complex nested repeates, but simple ABA, or ||:A:||:B:||, really shouldn't need to have the repeats written out. The only exception would be to avoid page unwieldy turns, seems to me. I am all for using repeats to indicate form, as long as that's not going to make it more complicated than the forms I just mentioned. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Endings in repeats - advice needed
On Dec 10, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Horace Brock wrote: If think the Broadway books are bad (and I've played them), wait till you see brass band music published by the Salvation Army. I hate to play topper (no really, I kind of like it!) but the worst by far are salsa and merengue charts, especially those otherwise pretty good ones that are making the rounds from a transcription service in Venezuela or Peru or some place like that. Nested repeats (repeated sections inside a repeat), overlapped repeats (jumping back to a place INSIDE a repeat!) double or triple DSes and double or triple codas, sometimes with instructions on what gets played twice or six times on which repeat in Spanish, so if your Spanish isn't so hot (like mine) then you are left puzzling while the Cuban trumpet player next to you who never seems to get tired (and those parts are HIGH!) rips through it like he owns it without a pause. Plus the guy who copied them with a nib pen never seems to connect his stems to his noteheads and sometimes goes for long passages with the stems on the wrong side of the notehead and who can tell the eighth rests from the quarter rests? as both are indecipherable squiggles. Once I've been through them a few times and practically memorized them (taking my cue from the trumpet player!) they are a hoot to play and sound really good, but the copying and layout are the WORST! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
