Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Hi Scott! I just don't like the browser part of it. Makes it all too complex, same from RIAs in Flex/Flash, though. Desktop Applications like Apollo and WPF/Avalon are more my thing. Yes, expression/Web looks nice even got good reviews from a popular magazine :) Trillion times better then FrontPage, even MSFT themself know that app sucked... Yours, Weyert
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Weyert, I'm curious to learn more about what you mean by the browser part. If we could take this offline (I'm concious of the mail-list's context) and anyone else for that matter would throw there pain points in this regard my way I can feed it back to th SL Team. Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft On 5/3/07, Weyert de Boer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Scott! I just don't like the browser part of it. Makes it all too complex, same from RIAs in Flex/Flash, though. Desktop Applications like Apollo and WPF/Avalon are more my thing. Yes, expression/Web looks nice even got good reviews from a popular magazine :) Trillion times better then FrontPage, even MSFT themself know that app sucked... Yours, Weyert
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
No problem! You got my email address. Remind me offlist and I will respond tomorrow. Time to go home. :)
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Time to go home... Never! I'm with Weyert on this one as well, Browser restrictions make my job difficult. Bjorn On 03/05/2007, at 5:52 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote: No problem! You got my email address. Remind me offlist and I will respond tomorrow. Time to go home. :)
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On May 2, 2007, at 10:15 PM, Andrew Muller wrote: Ooh, does this mean that they forgot to announce IE for the Mac at MIX??? Thank goodness they won't... I'd be afraid of all the new CSS hacks I'd have to learn. Oh, and all those other hacked variations on standard languages... - jon
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Tuesday 01 May 2007, Adam Reynolds wrote: When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous message? I have no idea what this one is about :) Maybe you should turn threading on in Thunderbird. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to vitalistically harness cross-platform e-tailers on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Wednesday 02 May 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote: Why would you want to do it though ? I was suggesting an escape route just in case Adobe felt the heat just too close. Pfft. hand wave argument/ -- Tom Chiverton Helping to dramatically maximize eigth-generation eyeballs on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
If you ever watch the developer videos on Channel 9, you'll see that many MS devs have macbooks (or whatever they're called) sitting on their desks! -Scott On 4/29/07, dorkie dork from dorktown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it. not everyone uses windows. i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them. since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users. On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does C# kill Java? Does IE kill Firefox? Does SQLServer kill Oracle? Does Windows kill UNIX? Will Silverlight kill Flex? From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true. In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left. Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty good (c'mon, be generous). I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software company you start with Windows. The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering. If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to remain in business and the market will take care of them. So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player. Simon --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Jason, Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many millions aren't.. If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by Windows users, well good luck to you. Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have that luxury. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer  Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St. South Melbourne 3205, VIC Australia T: +61 3 9674 7400 F: +61 3 9645 9160 W: http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---)) One person wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. Another responded: Think again. Think again? What kind of an argument is that? People keep brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, that technology does not support obscure browser X or non-Windows operating system Y and therefore is doomed to fail argument. As much as I wish it were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and again developed solutions for Windows only and been
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I have been going through some of the Silverlight material and videos, and the way they have engineered the dlr and the openness with which ms is approaching this market does seem fundamentally different from what I have seen in the past from ms (just try to imagine ms open sourcing anything substantial 5 years ago). Also given the people they have hired recently I do have the impression the commitment is substantial. Whether there is anything sustainable in there remains to be seen (but that is true for life in general). And of course, it will not kill Flex. Actually my guess is it will make Flex stronger. _ From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sher_ali2004 Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:24 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ? Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy. They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except Window OS and MS Office. If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never want to loss. What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com ups.com, slangeberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you ever watch the developer videos on Channel 9, you'll see that many MS devs have macbooks (or whatever they're called) sitting on their desks! -Scott On 4/29/07, dorkie dork from dorktown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it. not everyone uses windows. i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them. since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users. On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does C# kill Java? Does IE kill Firefox? Does SQLServer kill Oracle? Does Windows kill UNIX? Will Silverlight kill Flex? From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true. In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left. Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty good (c'mon, be generous). I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software company you start with Windows. The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering. If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to remain in business and the market will take care of them. So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player. Simon --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com ups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss bjorn.schultheiss@ wrote: Hey Jason, Even
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy. They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except Window OS and MS Office. If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never want to loss. What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ? Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it smarter etc). ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward. Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac. It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being left out on the Mac. Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF), Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world, that's fine but I doubt Flex will die simply because Microsoft is in the room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will own the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think is quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands. In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some combination applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies. Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform Ooh, does this mean that they forgot to announce IE for the Mac at MIX??? ;-) On 03/05/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy. They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except Window OS and MS Office. If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never want to loss. What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ? Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it smarter etc). ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward. Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac. It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being left out on the Mac. Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF), Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world, that's fine but I doubt Flex will die simply because Microsoft is in the room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will own the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think is quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands. In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some combination applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies. Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft --- Andrew Muller http://www.webqem.com linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/151/905
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
You got to love how easy it is to obtain artwork from the XAML files used by the demos of Silverlight ;) Time to create some evil version of it. :
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
erm, i dont think so. what about visual interdev? you say it got reborn. no its not frontpage. its a completely new and different program. unless you can run your frontpage files in it Expression Web != frontpage. you wrote, I'll also talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies. no. thats not true. when i say, i want to choose a technology to use whoever i choose to use is the winner of my decision. so if silverlight doesn't support the features i need and the platforms i need then it will never win my bid. if it doesn't support *me* and my project then its not even in the running. ps it could mash together with other apps if i choose multiple technologies but i want one tool to develop in. i hate the mashup mash up development the web has created. html talking to css talks to javascript talks to ajax talks to java talks to database. were sending messages all over the place. although flex helps this you still have 1 dummy html wrapper + 1 swf + 1 server side technology + 1 optional db. i had to give a swf to another developer at work. it was loading in all the images and css. we had run into path issues so i asked if he wanted everything embedded. i gave him one file from then on. from 30 files to 1 swf. On 5/2/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy. They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except Window OS and MS Office. If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never want to loss. What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ? Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it smarter etc). ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward. Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac. It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being left out on the Mac. Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF), Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world, that's fine but I doubt Flex will die simply because Microsoft is in the room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will own the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think is quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands. In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some combination applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies. Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I dont really care about SivlerLight I want Ultimate Experience (WPF) on the Mac! All those stupid online applications g
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Cool, if you see Silverlight as another piece in your online delivery solution great, if you think it's pure evil - don't use it. It's great to have choice of offerings like this and more power to one and all :) p.s Frontpage = Expression Web in terms of the next generation of Web Designer tool for Microsoft. If you want developer base functionaity (C# etc), go with Visual Studio Web Express etc.. On 5/3/07, Weyert de Boer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dont really care about SivlerLight I want Ultimate Experience (WPF) on the Mac! All those stupid online applications g -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Monday 30 Apr 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote: Just an idea, Why would you want to do it though ? -- Tom Chiverton Helping to continually drive ubiquitous developments on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Tom Chiverton wrote: On Monday 30 Apr 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote: Just an idea, Why would you want to do it though ? When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous message? I have no idea what this one is about :) -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
It's about whether or not Silverlight will kill Flex. :) (subject line) Seriously .. this conversation has been going on for days .. would be impossible to keep it all. When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous message? I have no idea what this one is about :) -- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On 4/30/07, simonjpalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does C# kill Java? Does IE kill Firefox? Does SQLServer kill Oracle? Does Windows kill UNIX? Will Silverlight kill Flex? The answer exists only in Tao. http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Title: QDC - Bjorn Signature Hey Jason,Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many millions aren't..If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by Windows users, well good luck to you.Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have that luxury.Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St.South Melbourne 3205,VIC AustraliaT: +61 3 9674 7400F: +61 3 9645 9160W: http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))One person wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. Another responded:Think again."Think again?" What kind of an argument is that? People keep brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument. As much as I wish it were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and again developed solutions for Windows only and been quite successful at it. Not supporting Mac or Linux WILL hurt you a little, but it's still a Windows world (unfortunately) and thus there is a huge market there to tap. The world is changing, sure, but very very slowly in this regard. At the same time, I think Silverlight is coming out a little too late - the RIA runtime has already left the barn IMO. Jason Merrill Bank of America GTO Learning Leadership Development eTools Multimedia Team
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left. I am not sure about the C# and Java bit, though ;) It might my severe experiences with Java lately. But I C# does a good job... You just need to use the right stuff with CLR. I mean most people run server applications in workstation mode instead of server mode. Yes, then you have performance issues. The garbage collector works differently then. Also some limitations will be removed etc. Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty good (c'mon, be generous). I think Word is terrible to use, and Excel is good but I still think Quatro Pro worked better when I had to use it. I dont use Excel anymore. Yours, Weyert
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it. not everyone uses windows. i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them. since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users. On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does C# kill Java? Does IE kill Firefox? Does SQLServer kill Oracle? Does Windows kill UNIX? Will Silverlight kill Flex? From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true. In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left. Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty good (c'mon, be generous). I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software company you start with Windows. The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering. If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to remain in business and the market will take care of them. So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player. Simon --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Jason, Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many millions aren't.. If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by Windows users, well good luck to you. Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have that luxury. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer  Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St. South Melbourne 3205, VIC Australia T: +61 3 9674 7400 F: +61 3 9645 9160 W: http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---)) One person wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. Another responded: Think again. Think again? What kind of an argument is that? People keep brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, that technology does not support obscure browser X or non-Windows operating system Y and therefore is doomed to fail argument. As much as I wish it were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and again developed solutions for Windows only and been quite successful at it. Not supporting Mac or Linux WILL hurt you a little, but it's still a Windows world (unfortunately) and thus there is a huge market there to tap. The world is changing, sure, but very very slowly in this regard. At the same time, I think Silverlight is coming out a little too late - the RIA
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I am of the same opinion. At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC notebook, all the rest were macbooks. I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS. regards, Bjorn On 30/04/2007, at 1:00 PM, dorkie dork from dorktown wrote: the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it. not everyone uses windows. i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them. since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users. On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does C# kill Java? Does IE kill Firefox? Does SQLServer kill Oracle? Does Windows kill UNIX? Will Silverlight kill Flex? From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true. In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left. Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty good (c'mon, be generous). I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software company you start with Windows. The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering. If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to remain in business and the market will take care of them. So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player. Simon --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Jason, Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many millions aren't.. If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by Windows users, well good luck to you. Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have that luxury. Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer  Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St. South Melbourne 3205, VIC Australia T: +61 3 9674 7400 F: +61 3 9645 9160 W: http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---)) One person wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. Another responded: Think again. Think again? What kind of an argument is that? People keep brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, that technology does not support obscure browser X or non-Windows operating system Y and therefore is doomed to fail argument. As much as I wish it were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and again developed
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: I am of the same opinion. At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC notebook, all the rest were macbooks. Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-) I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS. Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though. Creating Grid components and such! Yours, Weyert de Boer
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-) Yes i noticed. mbp is the nicest notebook IMO. Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though. Creating Grid components and such! WPF is cool for sure, silverlight not so much. At the moment Flash 9 and PV3D seems more interesting than silverlight. regards, Bjorn On 30/04/2007, at 2:11 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote: Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: I am of the same opinion. At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC notebook, all the rest were macbooks. Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-) I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS. Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though. Creating Grid components and such! Yours, Weyert de Boer
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-) Yes i noticed. mbp is the nicest notebook IMO. Yeah, nice ones indeed! And fast too. WPF is cool for sure, silverlight not so much. At the moment Flash 9 and PV3D seems more interesting than silverlight. Yes, thats what I am thinking too! It would be nice to have the real WPF under MacOSX instead of only a browser plugin. Yours, Weyert de Boer
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Silverlight does not require IE. It workes on IE and Firefox under Windows, and Safari for Mac. I also understand Firefox for Mac support is expected soon (if I've not already missed it). It has extensive cross platform functionality including streaming video support. It also has the advantage of development under Visual Studio which is a HUGE plus for me. Don't get me wrong, Eclipse is a good IDE with a good debugger and a great set of available (even free) 3rd party plug-ins. But, I've yet to find anything that can compare to the power and ease of Visual Studio 2005 (IMHO). All that being said Silverlight is not without it's problems: * It's control library is still very week. It does not even have a real TextInput equivalent in the last preview release I used. * I does not offer any form of compilation, so it is delivered to the end user as XAML and Javascript source code (which sucks). * It may also be a long time before it has anywhere close to the market penetration that Flash has now. I think Silverlight will be a good contender, but I really do not see it replacing Flash/Flex any time in the near future. - Kelly Paul J DeCoursey wrote: Ummm no IE does not work on the Mac, the last few versions were awful and barely worked. MS hasn't been developing it in at least 2 years, maybe three. They stopped supporting it over a year ago. Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. The better solution was a cross plataform solution, that's why I've been working with Flex. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
At fitc Ted Patrick announced that Flex 3 will have platform-neutral support for data integration with .Net, Java, PHP, etc.. see Aral Balkan's notes from the keynote: http://aralbalkan. com/922 http://aralbalkan.com/922 /*I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove very useful.*/ I don't know exactly what that means - we'll have to wait and see. Cheers, -Brian mvbaffa wrote: I beleive that Adobe wants to increase its participation in the software development market. .NET is very good and its number of developers is huge. That's why they should not be fogotten. This at least is naive. Adobe has one thing that Microsoft does not have, FLASH. This is the key to success if it is well conducted. I do not care about politics. I really do not care which is the winner Microsoft or Adobe. The winner will be the one that can deploy good and affordable products. -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser __
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Ummm no IE does not work on the Mac, the last few versions were awful and barely worked. MS hasn't been developing it in at least 2 years, maybe three. They stopped supporting it over a year ago. Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. The better solution was a cross plataform solution, that's why I've been working with Flex.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Which department? Development. Creative. Windows does not have a monopoly. On 27/04/2007, at 12:34 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote: I think this is true for many enterprises. Not true for a lot of developers. At 09:41 PM 4/26/2007, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: Think again. On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. -- Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St. South Melbourne 3205, VIC Australia T: +61 3 9674 7400 F: +61 3 9645 9160 W: http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Think again. On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I think this is true for many enterprises. Not true for a lot of developers. At 09:41 PM 4/26/2007, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote: Think again. On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote: Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs have IE working OK. -- Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com Connecticut Macromedia User Group: http://www.ctmug.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Wednesday 25 Apr 2007, Scott Barnes wrote: developers more power in delivering their potential instead of reserving it for Enterprise firstly, getting caught up in this Microsoft is evil war and lastly forcing a technology like LiveCycle into the equation. How's that misleading? Because LCDS isn't being forced on anyone. No 'power' (do you mean feature ?) is being reserved for the Enterprise (who ever they are). All features are available to everyone. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to professionally pursue enterprise-class services on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Monday 23 Apr 2007, mvbaffa wrote: And It's free ! Isn't FDS Express free ? When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex. As long as you don't want to have small downloads. Or to work on Linux. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to widespreadedly restore turn-key supply-chains on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
How will they become a true competitor when as I understand it, the XBAPs really only work in IE, so the whole cross-platform notion goes out the window, doesn't it? I think that WPF definitely has it's place... on the windows desktop. It is my opinion that it will be huge in making windows applications more rich and friendly experiences, but for now at least, I don't see it making the same headway in online applications. On 4/23/07, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to remember that Windows Communication Foundation has duplex, or callback services. That allows the server notify the clients of any server events. Sounds like FDS don't you think ??? And It's free ! FDS is still more easy to use and more complete. But WCF is getting there. When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, dorkie dork from dorktown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you wrote, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i thought Flex/RIA was trying to address. i thought that was to make development and developers lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress that. i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to get the foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the foundation. the data services adapters on the server need to be part of that foundation. at least basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of flex is the data communications. client side *is* only half the application. flex builder - reasonably priced flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption) flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another solution. i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have something out of the box it will have a huge advantage. On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Scott, Don't you think you should make it clear in your emails that you work for Microsoft, as an evangelist with technologies that compete directly with Flash and Flex? I know you mentioned it a couple of times, but you are emailing from a gmail account, and don't put your Microsoft affiliation in your sig. That seems a little misleading to me. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Barnes wrote: heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was sell-out from memory... I've heard them all dude :) Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to be a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm trolling does that make you fanboi? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy (gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?) Scott. Connect with others. .
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
*sigh* you wanna play politics Mike, go for it, but if you spent more time focusing on the products and the issues developers face daily instead of engaging in politics around the semantics of what exactly should be disclosed vs shouldn't - on a public forum, that's not owned by Adobe - go for it. More to the point, this is my opinion and not of my employer (as per previous emails) so no, it's not relevant and while you assume my job is to compete with Adobe it's actually not, I deal with developers in all stacks around the web. So, if Adobe want to go this whole us vs them attitude, then you're a fool. As there are .NET developers out there whom use your products and part of my role is also engaging these folks and helping them through these hurdles. I deal with a lot of .NET folk whom need help withe FLEX (thus why I promote WebORB as a nice end to end solution so far) Sad part of all Mike is if you actually read the post and focused on it, I'm *praising* FLEX and advocating it could do better (which if we were competiting would mean bad for us right?). All I am asking is give the developers more power in delivering their potential instead of reserving it for Enterprise firstly, getting caught up in this Microsoft is evil war and lastly forcing a technology like LiveCycle into the equation. How's that misleading? - less time mud slinging the same old rant (you'e done this before on Ted's blog and got the same responses) and more focus on doing whatever it is you do at Adobe. btw. I've not only bought Adobe products, but I've sold them on your behalf, so with all due respect I'm still paying customer first, brand second. Focus on that. On 4/25/07, Mike Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, Don't you think you should make it clear in your emails that you work for Microsoft, as an evangelist with technologies that compete directly with Flash and Flex? I know you mentioned it a couple of times, but you are emailing from a gmail account, and don't put your Microsoft affiliation in your sig. That seems a little misleading to me. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] mesh%40adobe.com Scott Barnes wrote: heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was sell-out from memory... I've heard them all dude :) Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to be a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm trolling does that make you fanboi? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy (gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?) Scott. Connect with others. . -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
(*which by rights it should be doing much bigger things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the technology*) and can cost people jobs. Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress! Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong signals, being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this occasion this is purely my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both sides) :) Scott. P.S I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at Microsoft also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch Site), I code offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have where I swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET 2.0 with MXML using the server-side compiler... just because i drink now from the Microsoft fire hose, doesn't mean I turn my back on everything I worked on for the past 10 years.. there is life after Microsoft Adobe. I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me started... heh. On 4/23/07, David Mendels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, This is all FUD. You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years, but the below is just so off-base. a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not crash and burn. It was one of the most successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that time. That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many people (not everyone) were very successfull with it. As soon as we had the performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2. That was (IMO) the right order of operations. You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully. b) Our strategy is clear. The FlexSDK is free and can work with any backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many implementations of AMF. c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well. It isn't intended for everyone. But it has tremendous value for use cases where it it relevent and it is also very successfull. It is clear you are not interested in it yourself, which is fine. Others are. We--Adobe--will continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use them. If that is a conspiracy I don't get it. d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs, artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF (an ISO standard) can be very valuable. Some of the use cases I have seen lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management, field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management, new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc. I could go on, but the combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not. If you aren't interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free. There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;) We'll keep working on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no conspiracies. -David -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ? Paul: How many? Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so it means in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on supporting the users if need be. Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a million and one points of interest in this space and it does look compelling when you separate
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
it just smacks of customer disloyalty firstly and secondly - most important of all - results in poor uptake of Flex ( *which by rights it should be doing much bigger things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the technology*) and can cost people jobs. Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress! Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong signals, being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this occasion this is purely my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both sides) :) Scott. P.S I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at Microsoft also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch Site), I code offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have where I swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET 2.0 with MXML using the server-side compiler... just because i drink now from the Microsoft fire hose, doesn't mean I turn my back on everything I worked on for the past 10 years.. there is life after Microsoft Adobe. I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me started... heh. On 4/23/07, David Mendels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, This is all FUD. You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years, but the below is just so off-base. a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not crash and burn. It was one of the most successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that time. That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many people (not everyone) were very successfull with it. As soon as we had the performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2. That was (IMO) the right order of operations. You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully. b) Our strategy is clear. The FlexSDK is free and can work with any backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many implementations of AMF. c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well. It isn't intended for everyone. But it has tremendous value for use cases where it it relevent and it is also very successfull. It is clear you are not interested in it yourself, which is fine. Others are. We--Adobe--will continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use them. If that is a conspiracy I don't get it. d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs, artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF (an ISO standard) can be very valuable. Some of the use cases I have seen lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management, field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management, new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc. I could go on, but the combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not. If you aren't interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free. There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;) We'll keep working on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no conspiracies. -David -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ? Paul: How many? Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so it means in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on supporting the users if need
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
so not at the expense of having Flex Developers on this list having to jump more financial mismanaged hurdles while your guys figure out how the pieces play a role it just smacks of customer disloyalty firstly and secondly - most important of all - results in poor uptake of Flex ( *which by rights it should be doing much bigger things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the technology*) and can cost people jobs. Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress! Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong signals, being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this occasion this is purely my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both sides) :) Scott. P.S I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at Microsoft also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch Site), I code offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have where I swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET http://asp.net/ 2.0 with MXML using the server-side compiler... just because i drink now from the Microsoft fire hose, doesn't mean I turn my back on everything I worked on for the past 10 years.. there is life after Microsoft Adobe. I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me started... heh. On 4/23/07, David Mendels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, This is all FUD. You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years, but the below is just so off-base. a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not crash and burn. It was one of the most successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that time. That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many people (not everyone) were very successfull with it. As soon as we had the performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2. That was (IMO) the right order of operations. You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully. b) Our strategy is clear. The FlexSDK is free and can work with any backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many implementations of AMF. c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well. It isn't intended for everyone. But it has tremendous value for use cases where it it relevent and it is also very successfull. It is clear you are not interested in it yourself, which is fine. Others are. We--Adobe--will continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use them. If that is a conspiracy I don't get it. d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs, artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF (an ISO standard) can be very valuable. Some of the use cases I have seen lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management, field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management, new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc. I could go on, but the combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not. If you aren't interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free. There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;) We'll keep working on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no conspiracies. -David -- *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ? Paul: How many? Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll I wish it was otherwise... -Brian Scott Barnes wrote: http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuDAzzKnz8 :) -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser __
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was sell-out from memory... I've heard them all dude :) Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to be a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm trolling does that make you fanboi? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy (gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?) Scott. P.S I own your book Brian, and so I respect your work and hope you don't take offense, merly trying to illustrate how easy it is to throw the mud and how silly it can get? On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll I wish it was otherwise... -Brian Scott Barnes wrote: http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuDAzzKnz8 :) -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blesser%40ryerson.ca (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser __ -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
i wouldn't say that. i think he has some valid points that echo my own. i love flex and i love the visual studio products when i worked in them. don't really like some of MS business practices but i feel more comfortable with MS than i have in a long time (well parts of it). but like scott, my first goal above a brand is a better experience for the future for the user and for the developer. i don't think MS has told us everything about their plans for Silverlight. what especially concerns me is all the staff they have. if these guys have a say in the actual delivered product that *they* think it needs i think it will be a great product. i dont think that will put us out of the job or prevent flex from being successful. nintendo (yay!) has a strategy that is focus on making games fun / a great experience. they don't really care what the competition is doing. their $200 system is selling more than the super ps3 and super xbox 360. they don't have their head in the sand but even if they did they are focused on the right thing. if adobe focuses on making flex great, a great experience for user and developer, then they got the focus right. all the things they need to do will be enveloped under that umbrella. dorkie dork from dorktown On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll I wish it was otherwise... -Brian Scott Barnes wrote: http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuDAzzKnz8 :) -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blesser%40ryerson.ca (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesserhttp://www.ryerson.ca/%7Eblesser __
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
you wrote, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i thought Flex/RIA was trying to address. i thought that was to make development and developers lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress that. i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to get the foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the foundation. the data services adapters on the server need to be part of that foundation. at least basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of flex is the data communications. client side *is* only half the application. flex builder - reasonably priced flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption) flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another solution. i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have something out of the box it will have a huge advantage. On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect. I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s). On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications. These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that can save them millions of dollars a year. I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and the community to provide those solutions. Paul --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall, I'll push back with a
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Paul: How many? Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so it means in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on supporting the users if need be. Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a million and one points of interest in this space and it does look compelling when you separate it away from FLEX for a bit. Yet, let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture, how does FLEX developers world-wide get any wins from having LiveCycle in the room, and what percentage of them are in favour of LiveCycle development being slotted in front of FLEX? 2002 Paul, I've been waiting since 2002.. I waded through swapping and changing of Flash Framework directions (V1 to V2) like the rest of some of us on this list. I waited for Royale to hit the street only to watch it crash and burn due to price tag issues (which we all said loud and clear this bites! - listen to the customers is a tip). I watched CENTRAL get thrown our way, and was glad we could use this concept and wondered why it went away (EULA and again not consulting customers first was the perception). I watched as FLEX 2.0 came back, but free only the whole remoting piece dropped off the radar and came back as Flex Data Services. Only Its hard to find someone whom will host this product (why?) and secondly it doesn't support .NET and Java anymore? it's only Java? (It's not as if Remoting + .NET has been a mystery, it was there in the past and if the WebORB folks for example can make it happen? surely Adobe could). It's 2007 and I'm seeing Apollo have PDF Integration (which raises an eyebrow on whom this is really for - could be conspiracy theory going off signal, happy to eat crow if i'm wrong on this one as i'm not absolutely sure). Flex Data Services now has a new name, LiveCycle Data Services and FLEX 3 well.. i won't bother... I don't know all the answers but at the very least, I'm seeing all the warning signs of the past and for once, i'd like to raise this (once bit -ok, twice bit -fair enough, thrice bit no thanks). 2002 - 2007, we should be knee deep in RIA happiness and I should be still on the street making bundles of $$ and not working for Microsoft. Fact of the matter is I'm working for them, because to be openly honest i'm going to start over my RIA quest and see what these guys do with Silverlight and WPF as I've done my tour of duty with FLEX and have lots of scars to prove it (It wasn't all bad, I did make a nice living and once I broke through the learning barrier and was able to memorize the entire framework it was easy just lots of fingers on keyboard stuff). On 4/23/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? Quite a few actually. The company I work for provides this as a service for many fortune 500 companies. Some of those companies are right now in the process of moving to Flex for the front end of their forms systems. PDF has already deeply penetrated the business world. Why do you feel PDF is a danger to business? It has many benefits including being a universal format that is easy to read. It includes versioning and security features required by SOX compliance. It just makes sense for many organizations to adopt. Paul -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Hi Paul, You made me laugh out loud when I read: I shouldn't even be responding to this rant. I've had a very similar feeling! Some news that may be of interest from the FITC conference here in Toronto summarized by Aral Balkan: http://aralbalkan.com/922 /*I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove very useful.*/ He's reporting on a quick overview Ted gave about Flex 3 during the keynote - including a brief bit on how the new back-end platform-neutral data integration will work. (I'm probably not using his exact words but the gist was there will be support for Java, .Net, PHP, and others.) I'm looking forward to Ted's longer Flex presentation. Yours truly, -Brian Paul DeCoursey wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ ... wrote: Paul: How many? 37... I don't know... I don't even work in that group. I just know that it has been very lucrative. I shouldn't even be responding to this rant. I'm not too sure how to respond to it really. I don't really understand why people think that Adobe needs to be creating products that suit the needs of every user. If you want a .NET Remoting solution then build one, WebORB did it, why can't you? Adobe is making products that make sense for their main customers, and I'm sorry to say that isn't us. -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser __
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Oh yeah!..i agree.. I kind of wanted to dump and run on this rant as well... Happy to let it die of the natral death it deserves heheeh. On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Paul, You made me laugh out loud when I read: I shouldn't even be responding to this rant. I've had a very similar feeling! Some news that may be of interest from the FITC conference here in Toronto summarized by Aral Balkan: http://aralbalkan.com/922 /*I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove very useful.*/ He's reporting on a quick overview Ted gave about Flex 3 during the keynote - including a brief bit on how the new back-end platform-neutral data integration will work. (I'm probably not using his exact words but the gist was there will be support for Java, .Net, PHP, and others.) I'm looking forward to Ted's longer Flex presentation. Yours truly, -Brian Paul DeCoursey wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com mailto:flexcoders% flexcoders%2540yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ ... wrote: Paul: How many? 37... I don't know... I don't even work in that group. I just know that it has been very lucrative. I shouldn't even be responding to this rant. I'm not too sure how to respond to it really. I don't really understand why people think that Adobe needs to be creating products that suit the needs of every user. If you want a .NET Remoting solution then build one, WebORB did it, why can't you? Adobe is making products that make sense for their main customers, and I'm sorry to say that isn't us. -- __ Brian Lesser Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration Computing and Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835 M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220 Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] blesser%40ryerson.ca (Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser __ -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Yeah, you would also say that when .NET was supported wonderfully and we got the problem with Java or ColdFusion connectivity? Now I can really care less about Java myself, but I can do tell that would hear the same sounds then. Of course, it ain't difficult to write some good connector .NET Flex/Flash. It's just sad that you need to spend time on it, while its being one of the those programming languages widely used. Yours, Weyert de Boe
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Scott, This is all FUD. You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years, but the below is just so off-base. a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not crash and burn. It was one of the most successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that time. That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many people (not everyone) were very successfull with it. As soon as we had the performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2. That was (IMO) the right order of operations. You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully. b) Our strategy is clear. The FlexSDK is free and can work with any backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many implementations of AMF. c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well. It isn't intended for everyone. But it has tremendous value for use cases where it it relevent and it is also very successfull. It is clear you are not interested in it yourself, which is fine. Others are. We--Adobe--will continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use them. If that is a conspiracy I don't get it. d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs, artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF (an ISO standard) can be very valuable. Some of the use cases I have seen lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management, field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management, new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc. I could go on, but the combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not. If you aren't interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free. There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;) We'll keep working on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no conspiracies. -David From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ? Paul: How many? Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so it means in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on supporting the users if need be. Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a million and one points of interest in this space and it does look compelling when you separate it away from FLEX for a bit. Yet, let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture, how does FLEX developers world-wide get any wins from having LiveCycle in the room, and what percentage of them are in favour of LiveCycle development being slotted in front of FLEX? 2002 Paul, I've been waiting since 2002.. I waded through swapping and changing of Flash Framework directions (V1 to V2) like the rest of some of us on this list. I waited for Royale to hit the street only to watch it crash and burn due to price tag issues (which we all said loud and clear this bites! - listen to the customers is a tip). I watched CENTRAL get thrown our way, and was glad we could use this concept and wondered why it went away (EULA and again not consulting customers first was the perception). I watched as FLEX 2.0 came back, but free only the whole remoting piece dropped off the radar and came back as Flex Data Services. Only Its hard to find someone whom will host this product (why?) and secondly it doesn't support .NET and Java anymore? it's only Java? (It's not as if Remoting + .NET has been a mystery, it was there in the past and if the WebORB folks for example can make it happen? surely Adobe could). It's 2007 and I'm seeing Apollo have PDF Integration (which raises an eyebrow on whom this is really for - could be conspiracy theory
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I personally don't see any reason to be newly concerned about LiveCycle + FLEX as opposed to Flex Data Services and Flex. LiveCycle is a suite of products including: Adobe LiveCycle Workflow, Assembler, Policy Server, Designer, Document Security, Form Manager, PDF Generator, etc. It appears Adobe is both enhancing and rebranding Flex Data Services as LiveCycle Data Services. Rebranding and enhancing a product in and of themselves don't indicate that there is a new problem - at least to me. At first glance, Adobe seems to be doing a lot of interesting work within LiveCycle Data Services. The ability to generate PDF, the portal feature, and AJAX data service all look interesting. (I'm still working my way through the Beta developer doc.) To Adobe's credit I think LiveCycle Data Services provides a lot more functionality than the simple Flash Remoting Gateway that started it all and that Macromedia tried to sell for $999/CPU. I also think it is important to acknowledge that Flex 2.0 was a fundamental departure from the licensing model of Flex 1.x. We all know the compiler and framework are now available at no cost and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the server-side Web compiler is also available free. The cost of the IDE - which I enjoy using - is not unreasonable. Flex clients can communicate directly with Web Services and to open-source and commercial Flash/Flex Remoting Gateways. I think that represents an important change: With a Remoting Gateway I can build powerful and *efficient* Flex applications that work with an Enterprise back end without using LiveCycle/Flex DataServices at all. On the other hand I think mvbaffa is making a somewhat different point. The entry barrier of moving from the no-cost commercial FDS license through the $6,000/CPU Department to the $20,000 Enterprise license will often be too high for much of the current Java developer/Enterprise market that Adobe wants to appeal to. That's partly because the cost and difficulty of using Java in the Enterprise has been declining while the power of what it can do has been steadily improving. When you look carefully at what you can get from JBoss or say Mule (see: http://mule.codehaus.org/display/MULE/Home) - to choose only two examples - you'll know what I mean. (My apologies if you've been there and worked through all their projects/modules already.) That Adobe is focusing on Java to start with rather than .Net is not surprising in this context and given Microsoft's offerings. At any rate since you (Scott) works for Microsoft it might be worth pointing out that Microsoft's server-side story can also be costly once you get away from the loss leaders Microsoft includes with the server OS. The value propositions for developers who want to add on to Microsoft's enterprise offerings get especially complicated if they need to push Client Access Licenses as part of new services or products. I think Microsoft and Adobe are two companies committed to making money selling servers into the Enterprise. From my perspective Adobe's licensing around Flex 2.0 and the availability of open source and commercial Remoting gateways, and RTMP capable servers, solved the fundamental barrier to entry for developers. You don't need Flex Data Services or LiveCycle Data Services to rock and roll with Flex. Yes, I'd like LiveCycle Data Services to be a lot less expensive than FDS just as I would like to pay a lot less for many Microsoft products and services I use. As someone who had to work through Microsoft's many licensing options and SKUs in great detail over the years, do I enjoy reading a Microsoft represenative piling on to complaints about Adobe's pricing and SKUs? Not so much. Yours truly, -Brian Scott Barnes wrote: For the record, I was very vocal about Flash's potential all those years ago as well (In 2004, I made this post http://www.mossyblo g.com/archives/ 276.cfm http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/276.cfm). I'm not trying to stir the politics, but i even look at the CS3 sku's and ponder what the hell is going on? (keep it simple). Flash has always been one of these pieces that I thought had so much more potential than what it has today, I mean you're right FLEX 1.0 was not only ahead of the game - but - pre-AJAX movement, so there was enormous potential here and it's why since i'm in an openly honest mood I hate the very though LiveCycle + FLEX are living side by side another as I get that feeling again Here we go, different name, numbers stay about the same. (Yes I know I'm now being negative and being a Microsoft employee it's now sounding like FUD, but in 2004 I had these feelings and I was right, 2007 they are back, difference is i have MS Logo on my back). I love FLEX, just hate the distractions around it. On 4/20/07, *mvbaffa* [EMAIL PROTECTED] com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adobe constructed a great product. The conception and
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Brian, I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall, I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think that Scrapblog.com concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent product to cope with this burden. LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still somewhat foreign to the RIA momentum. It's forcing the issue. Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I can to make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0 and RIA :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I'd like to say me too to the FDS thing. It really is an issue. They only address Java while ignoring the .NET, PHP and Ruby crowd. They also market FDS way above what the market can bear. In marketing you have to know what clients are willing to pay for your solution over another solution. Without options like AMFPHP and WebORB Flash would not be as successful as it is today. Still, these entities can only support what their free time allows them. As far as Silverlight goes, i like the name, i like the site, it looks cool. I think it validates that RIA technology allows you to do so much more for your user again. The web took away the power of the desktop. RIA is bring the power of applications to the web. For MS to make this choice to pursue this is clear that they see the value and need in it. If I owned the Flash Player I would not be able to compete when MS decided to play. Since its Adobe, I'm not bothered at all, except for the stupid FDS thing. I'm trying to convince my boss to use Flex and like Scott says, this is a entry barrier. When you are trying to get software adopted like Flex (people are still not sure about it) you don't make it so difficult to take advantage of. Adobe knows this, thats why they don't put the price on the site. It would scare people away. I can only hope Silverlight has some sort of FDS for *much* cheaper (free?) than FDS. Anyway, starting to rant. my 1.98 cents On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall, I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think that Scrapblog.com concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent product to cope with this burden. LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still somewhat foreign to the RIA momentum. It's forcing the issue. Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I can to make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0 and RIA :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect. I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s). On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications. These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that can save them millions of dollars a year. I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and the community to provide those solutions. Paul --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall, I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think that Scrapblog.com http://scrapblog.com/ concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent product to cope with this burden. LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still somewhat foreign to the RIA momentum. It's forcing the issue. Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I can to make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0 and RIA :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and /e) for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash but it is clear there is a market for Silverlight. Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been lacking with updates but now the pressure is on. I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers and the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying I wish Flash could do this! This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results. * Silverlight will not crush Flash. * Flash is no longer the only player in the game. * Both have their own markets. * Flash will be on top for many years to come. * I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing. (remember, v1 isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities) Disclaimer: I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good quality. ;-) On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET http://asp.net/ 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET http://asp.net/ AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect. I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s). On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications. These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that can save them millions of dollars a year. I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and the community to provide those solutions. Paul --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall, I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think that Scrapblog.com http://scrapblog.com/ concepts
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
John I agree with you on a lot of the points, but I am driven by the past, present and future and it's murky on both brands to be honest. I get were Microsoft are going, I don't get were Adobe ar going so I'm affiliated to the MS Brand for my RIA going forward Want to know why? http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/04/22/thanks-silverlight-you-just-validated-ria-wrong-here-s-why.aspx I decided to make a post about my history with Flash/FLEX from 2002 to 2007and hopefully illustrate why I prefer Microsoft's thoughts in the end and also disagree with Flash vs Silverlight discussions. I think they are still different technologies that may have an overlap in a few spots, but the direcion is different. On 4/22/07, John C. Bland II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and /e) for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash but it is clear there is a market for Silverlight. Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been lacking with updates but now the pressure is on. I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers and the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying I wish Flash could do this! This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results. * Silverlight will not crush Flash. * Flash is no longer the only player in the game. * Both have their own markets. * Flash will be on top for many years to come. * I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing. (remember, v1 isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities) Disclaimer: I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good quality. ;-) On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET http://asp.net/ 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET http://asp.net/ AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect. I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s). On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the niche markets that do
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I only care about WPF not the crossplatform part of it WPF/e or silverlight. WPF is so much fun with XAML. I am even using it as the user interface engine for one Win32 project which hosting WPF content. Yours, Weyert
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I'll respond on the blog. :-D On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John I agree with you on a lot of the points, but I am driven by the past, present and future and it's murky on both brands to be honest. I get were Microsoft are going, I don't get were Adobe ar going so I'm affiliated to the MS Brand for my RIA going forward Want to know why? http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/04/22/thanks-silverlight-you-just-validated-ria-wrong-here-s-why.aspx I decided to make a post about my history with Flash/FLEX from 2002 to 2007and hopefully illustrate why I prefer Microsoft's thoughts in the end and also disagree with Flash vs Silverlight discussions. I think they are still different technologies that may have an overlap in a few spots, but the direcion is different. On 4/22/07, John C. Bland II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and /e) for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash but it is clear there is a market for Silverlight. Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been lacking with updates but now the pressure is on. I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers and the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying I wish Flash could do this! This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results. * Silverlight will not crush Flash. * Flash is no longer the only player in the game. * Both have their own markets. * Flash will be on top for many years to come. * I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing. (remember, v1 isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities) Disclaimer: I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good quality. ;-) On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger in some organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development world-wide. 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread. So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit. Good Experience AJAX / HTML / CSS Great Experience Silverlight Ultimate Experience Windows Presentation Foundation ASP.NET http://asp.net/ 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NEThttp://asp.net/AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about Developers, Developers, Developers but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off of uptake. Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about co-existence not changing technology stacks. Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect. I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s). On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On 4/20/07, Dave Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful. I did flub the Sparkle reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E. Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=) Fair call :) I'll take you at your word on this one - but don't let that get out or people will think i'm soft, as in micro-soft :) I agree there was confusion and so i retract my point... As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was trying to get out. Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus. Yeah, seems like a lof of MSFT folks floating about, even some folks behind Macromedia are now floating in MSFT? :) You know what would look good for Cynergy Systems .. Adobe Flex Alliance Partner Microsoft Alliance Partner - now that would be worthy of an MSFT Alumnus ;) hehe. -- Dave Wolf Cynergy Systems, Inc. Adobe Flex Alliance Partner http://www.cynergysystems.com http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] dave.wolf%40cynergysystems.com Office: 866-CYNERGY --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave.C, Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to one company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do however disagree with the dark evil plotting - MIX isn't because MAX exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are hoping to mix-it-up a bit more). Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th - 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around Microsoft ;) Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term Missiles,Big Bang and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying I didn't know..I didn't know..) Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that). On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and why it's not just some copycat Flash competitor. If you're looking for a balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry: http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the Regards, Dave Carabetta. Cynergy Systems, Inc. On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG) That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be) On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 1.5 version. But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe. Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET developers. Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very soon. And it's price is very good, it is free ! I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF and SilverLight can
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On 4/20/07, Michael Schmalle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake. which is important :) All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken yourselves by your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple years, look back at what you say and see how hilarious it all is. I live near a desert? does that' coun't for isolation and freedom of thoughts? (Sorry in Australia, our mountains are hard to come by at times). How many times can the battle of north and south be fought and... won? :) Until East West figure out it's time to join in, and then we go on Springer... i got dibs on the chair throwing... Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the internet is much more funny than turning on the TV these days. They still have TV? you mean YouTube + TV can co-exist? next thing you'll say Silverlight and Flash can co-exist.. pft crazy talk. Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking regardless of the side your on. Your good at it to. Oh stop, you say that to all the Evangelists.. now you're making me blush *blush in ascii art*. As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one ever 'wins' forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your posts is exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want choice. I guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft have been saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE! Watch what you wish for, you just may get it... I think that is what being human is all about. Peace, Mike If I didn't have leg cramps right about now, i'd stand and applaud you :) (Seriously - Politics is bound to happen when you have to large corporations saying to all of you - try my stuff, no try mine, nooo try mine... and so on.. Adobe Microsoft compete on a number of levels while at the same time - this will freak the kids out in the front row - without Microsoft, Adobe couldn't of gotten to where it is today. Without Microsoft Flash's penetration numbers wouldn't be where they are/were today (but its ok, no thanks required for the Updates / Default installs we put on the box when we ship etc). I should also mention sites like Honda, MySpace, YouTube and Movie Sites etc were also strong drivers in this space more so then us. Yet if i say this outloud then we could sober up a bit and no1 likes a buzz killer ;) Point: Lighten up folks, it's just technology - or should I say Silverlight, Light up the web! :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft - whom wrote this with GMAIL.. shhh, don't tell HQ or they'll dock my pay ...as Hotmail and GMAIl cannot co-exist at all! it's in the rules alongside Silverlight and Flash :)
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Take it from me: Thomson v Microsoft 1. The documents I've seen waht to make me through up (dry heave) 2. Microsoft is involved in patent them, z4 technologies $140 recently is proof. So is Sun's settlement for MS hacking code. 3. Would you trust Microsoft. Bill Gates is a desperate LOSER I don't care how much money he has -- STEVE JOBS IS AN INNOVATOR, Bill Gates is a huster stealing from you peole in their early 20's. Paul DeCoursey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that there is room in the RIA space for another player. I think that MS has a few things going against it for this launch. First off it's a new plugin with little real world experience. It is going to take a long time for the market to become saturated enough for it to be relevant. It took many years for the Flash Player to gain acceptance, and it's still not a total success (read any posting on slashdot that is related to Flash to see what I mean). Throw on top of that Microsofts reputation in Internet Security and you have a user base that will be uneasy with the install. I see this going one of two ways. Silverlight takes more than 2 years to reach saturation, partially fueled by the reluctance of the population to upgrade to Vista. This causes developers to choose other options which in turn drive the next big web trend beyond RIA. Or Sliverlight is a moderate success and everyone is happy. Or (sorry, I just thought of this so it's actually 3 ways) Silverlight is a big success and clever developers like myself (I do totally rock ;) blend Flash, Flex, Silverlight and some other new emerging technologies that in turn drive innovation away from all the current RIA platforms to something far more advanced. This fits into my demented belief that the web is doomed to failure and something better is bound to replace it before it ends up killing us all. I can't say right now that I am totally excited about Silverlight. I would like to take a look at it and see what it can do. Paul deCoursey --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Dave Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful. I did flub the Sparkle reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E. Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=) As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was trying to get out. Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus. -- Dave Wolf Cynergy Systems, Inc. Adobe Flex Alliance Partner http://www.cynergysystems.com http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: 866-CYNERGY --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ wrote: Dave.C, Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to one company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do however disagree with the dark evil plotting - MIX isn't because MAX exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are hoping to mix-it-up a bit more). Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th - 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around Microsoft ;) Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term Missiles,Big Bang and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying I didn't know..I didn't know..) Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that). On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta dcarabetta@ wrote: I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and why it's not just some copycat Flash competitor. If you're looking for a balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry: http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the Regards, Dave Carabetta. Cynergy Systems, Inc. On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Puff. Avalon or WPF just rocks! :-) I luv it. Great, to use a the user interface engine in application. Easier to leverage then the Flash ActiveX control g Weyert
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
For the record, I was very vocal about Flash's potential all those years ago as well (In 2004, I made this post http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/276.cfm). I'm not trying to stir the politics, but i even look at the CS3 sku's and ponder what the hell is going on? (keep it simple). Flash has always been one of these pieces that I thought had so much more potential than what it has today, I mean you're right FLEX 1.0 was not only ahead of the game - but - pre-AJAX movement, so there was enormous potential here and it's why since i'm in an openly honest mood I hate the very though LiveCycle + FLEX are living side by side another as I get that feeling again Here we go, different name, numbers stay about the same. (Yes I know I'm now being negative and being a Microsoft employee it's now sounding like FUD, but in 2004 I had these feelings and I was right, 2007 they are back, difference is i have MS Logo on my back). I love FLEX, just hate the distractions around it. On 4/20/07, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adobe constructed a great product. The conception and architecture are excelent, but the comercial strategy is not so good. Macromedia had something like 4 years ahead of Microsoft, since Flex 1.5, that was a very good product too. Macromedia insisted to to seel it for US$18 k, nobody bought it Microsoft at that time did not exist in RIA Market. Then Adobe came and Flex became more accessible. But Adobe charges FDS in US$ 20K and does not pay attention to .NET developers. Well it seems to me that this is another big mistake. if Adobe continues with this kind of comercial strategy, i am afraid that our beloved Flex will loose the race. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4/20/07, Michael Schmalle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake. 4 which is important :) All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken yourselves by your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple years, look back at what you say and see how hilarious it all is. I live near a desert? does that' coun't for isolation and freedom of thoughts? (Sorry in Australia, our mountains are hard to come by at times). How many times can the battle of north and south be fought and... won? :) Until East West figure out it's time to join in, and then we go on Springer... i got dibs on the chair throwing... Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the internet is much more funny than turning on the TV these days. They still have TV? you mean YouTube + TV can co-exist? next thing you'll say Silverlight and Flash can co-exist.. pft crazy talk. Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking regardless of the side your on. Your good at it to. Oh stop, you say that to all the Evangelists.. now you're making me blush *blush in ascii art*. As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one ever 'wins' forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your posts is exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want choice. I guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft have been saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE! Watch what you wish for, you just may get it... I think that is what being human is all about. Peace, Mike If I didn't have leg cramps right about now, i'd stand and applaud you :) (Seriously - Politics is bound to happen when you have to large corporations saying to all of you - try my stuff, no try mine, nooo try mine... and so on.. Adobe Microsoft compete on a number of levels while at the same time - this will freak the kids out in the front row - without Microsoft, Adobe couldn't of gotten to where it is today. Without Microsoft Flash's penetration numbers wouldn't be where they are/were today (but its ok, no thanks required for the Updates / Default installs we put on the box when we ship etc). I should also mention sites like Honda, MySpace, YouTube and Movie Sites etc were also strong drivers in this space more so then us. Yet if i say this outloud then we could sober up a bit and no1 likes a buzz killer ;) Point: Lighten up folks, it's just technology - or should I say Silverlight, Light up the web! :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes Developer Evangelist Microsoft - whom wrote this with GMAIL.. shhh, don't tell HQ or they'll dock my pay ...as Hotmail and GMAIl cannot co-exist at all! it's in the rules alongside Silverlight and Flash :) -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and why it's not just some copycat Flash competitor. If you're looking for a balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry: http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the Regards, Dave Carabetta. Cynergy Systems, Inc. On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG) That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be) On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 1.5 version. But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe. Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET developers. Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very soon. And it's price is very good, it is free ! I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative. Marcus Baffa NOVA Consulting --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Peter Demling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow, unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers of major bugs and gaps in functionality. However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment to establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its commitment, it's not a question of *if* it could be almost as good as Flex - just a matter of when. I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are more of a market force than a true software company - and so the relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do - it's independent of the present quality of the actual product. -Peter Demling Lexington, MA --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ wrote: Claus, Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs SilverLight and once developers designers unsubscribe from the notion it's a Flash Killer and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming release) you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's early days yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an open mind should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :) WPF SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just like Apollo and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different things for different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :) On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers claus@ wrote: If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be opened to the idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich interactive applications. Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like some weird kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs. I'm still searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex offers (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video market share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2 centavos. Cheers, Claus. -- claus wahlers côdeazur brasil http://codeazur.com.br/ http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/ -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Dave.C, Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to one company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do however disagree with the dark evil plotting - MIX isn't because MAX exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are hoping to mix-it-up a bit more). Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th - 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around Microsoft ;) Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term Missiles,Big Bang and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying I didn't know..I didn't know..) Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that). On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and why it's not just some copycat Flash competitor. If you're looking for a balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry: http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the Regards, Dave Carabetta. Cynergy Systems, Inc. On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG) That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be) On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 1.5 version. But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe. Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET developers. Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very soon. And it's price is very good, it is free ! I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative. Marcus Baffa NOVA Consulting --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Peter Demling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow, unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers of major bugs and gaps in functionality. However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment to establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its commitment, it's not a question of *if* it could be almost as good as Flex - just a matter of when. I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are more of a market force than a true software company - and so the relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do - it's independent of the present quality of the actual product. -Peter Demling Lexington, MA --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ wrote: Claus, Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs SilverLight and once developers designers unsubscribe from the notion it's a Flash Killer and do
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake. All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken yourselves by your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple years, look back at what you say and see how hilarious it all is. How many times can the battle of north and south be fought and... won? :) Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the internet is much more funny than turning on the TV these days. Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking regardless of the side your on. Your good at it to. As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one ever 'wins' forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your posts is exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want choice. I guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft have been saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE! I think that is what being human is all about. Peace, Mike On 4/19/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave.C, Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to one company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do however disagree with the dark evil plotting - MIX isn't because MAX exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are hoping to mix-it-up a bit more). Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th - 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around Microsoft ;) Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term Missiles,Big Bang and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying I didn't know..I didn't know..) Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of MS is evil, watch them mentality. I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that). On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and why it's not just some copycat Flash competitor. If you're looking for a balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry: http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the Regards, Dave Carabetta. Cynergy Systems, Inc. On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG) That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be) On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 1.5 version. But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe. Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET developers. Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very soon. And it's price is very good, it is free ! I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative. Marcus Baffa NOVA Consulting --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Peter Demling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow, unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers of major bugs and gaps in functionality. However, their astronomical cash reserves and
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Always fun with Microsoft it's your competitor and your friend at the same time. I mean sometimes you cant without Microsoft when developing for the Windows platform.
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG) That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be) On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 1.5 version. But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe. Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET developers. Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very soon. And it's price is very good, it is free ! I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative. Marcus Baffa NOVA Consulting --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Peter Demling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow, unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers of major bugs and gaps in functionality. However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment to establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its commitment, it's not a question of *if* it could be almost as good as Flex - just a matter of when. I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are more of a market force than a true software company - and so the relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do - it's independent of the present quality of the actual product. -Peter Demling Lexington, MA --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ wrote: Claus, Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs SilverLight and once developers designers unsubscribe from the notion it's a Flash Killer and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming release) you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's early days yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an open mind should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :) WPF SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just like Apollo and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different things for different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :) On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers claus@ wrote: If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be opened to the idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich interactive applications. Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like some weird kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs. I'm still searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex offers (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video market share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2 centavos. Cheers, Claus. -- claus wahlers côdeazur brasil http://codeazur.com.br/ http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/ -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
See there ya go ;) once you get past all this my muscles are bigger than yours stuff and you get to the heart of it, it doesn't hurt to know how SilverLight ticks though does it :) Scott. On 17 Apr 2007 06:29:35 -0700, driverdude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *snarf* I'm trying to stop laughing! Realistically, Silverlight may pick up some heavy video developers, but Adobe is way far out there. I love Microsoft tools for coding, but doesn't this look like an opportunity to dis-include Linux and Solaris more than a real product? I'll pay much more serious attention if they do a good job with .NET integration. Flex + Coldfusion + SQL Server Silverlight + SQL Server with no middleware application server. As long as Adobe keeps the Flash runtime under 1 MB, with decent performance, and no plug-in CODEC searches (like QuickTime or WMP), I think Flash wins. Perhaps if Microsoft makes the tools free, that would shift the scales in their direction, or announcing something Apollo-like or integrating PDF viewing/generation/web browsing like Apollo. I intend to be fluent in Silverlight technologies as well as Flash/Flex/Apollo, in hopes that they do something really innovative, but I just can't imagine the masses dropping Flash for a very green product. Let's see what the next few months hold... -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
On Tuesday 17 Apr 2007, driverdude wrote: I'll pay much more serious attention if they do a good job with .NET integration. Flex + Coldfusion + SQL Server Silverlight + SQL Server with no middleware application server. .. except the one MS would have to bundle for free with SQL server ? Can you say 'anti-trust' ? in their direction, or announcing something Apollo-like WPF is Apollo-like. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to globally reintermediate industry-wide m-commerce on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?
) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool -Who will have to do JS scripting 2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR) CLR extends to the XAML implementation. What speed are you referring too? Render speed? 3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up) Which only run on Windows. Nice way to get the design community in. 4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users will be running Windows WPF/e is crossplatform to the extent of PC/MAC + IE6 + Firefox 1.5+ Safari or another mozilla based project. Ralph. On 17 Apr 2007 11:26:13 -0700, Shaun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would have to believe that WPF will win over Apollo for backoffice/intranet software for the following reasons: 1) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool 2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR) 3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up) 4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users will be running Windows As far as public internet sites go, I can't fathom why anyone would go for Silverlight over Flash/Flex. It's unproven, has 0 market share, is not truly cross-platform, and on and on... Shaun --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, softwarecat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you go and see the sample of the technology on the Silverlight website, it is not as smooth and elegent as the ones Ely has created. I think it will have it's audience, but IMHO I think the movement of the community and the designer involvement is going to make Flex the king. I agree, marketing and brute force are a challenge to Flex only by company name and reputation with the masses. Still clumsy, but I honestly have not worked within WPF to know, only seen some results. My 2 Cents! --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com, Paul J DeCoursey paul@ wrote: All I have to say is it's Microsoft, if they kill anything it's not on the merits of their product... it's brute force. This is not a threat to Flash/Flex by any means. Microsoft will never be able to create a truly cross platform product. All of their past efforts have been clumsy at best, even on their own platform. Paul -- Ralph Hauwert
