Re: [Flexradio] Audio processing advice with the Presonus FireBox
Tim, There is a reason that many people recognize the Cubase software name. They are simply at the top of the game. You can use the version that ships with the PreSonus Firebox in combination with the PowerSDR software for fantastic results. The only con I can think of in this setup is that it does require another D/A - A/D connection (from output 5/6 to Mic Input 1). But what this allows is using all of the parametric EQs and all the other bells and whistles in Cubase to make your audio sound just like you want it. The flat frequency response of the SDR-1000 transmitter is what allows us to use processed audio coming into the PowerSDR software and it comes out on the air just as you hear it on the monitor. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of Tim Ellison Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:41 PM To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Audio processing advice with the Presonus FireBox I an considering getting the FireBox for some portable operations. Before making that purchase I wanted to inquire to those who have been using it and wanted to get some feedback. Since I haven't seen any posts related to the FireBox and it not working correctly, I'll assume that is the case. My question has to do with audio processing. I have always been told that for the optimal audio chain goes something like this: Mic-preamp-EQ-compressor/limiter-effects Now I don't plan on using all that type of processing, but I do like using an EQ and currently the PowerSDR EQ is currently being re-coded. Since the FireBox has a preamp for the two XLR inputs and there isn't anything like an effects loop, what options would I have for signal process pre-SDR1K? What would be the cons for EQing a signal before the preamp? I see where you can use VST plug-ins for QuBase. Has anyone done this and what were the results? -Tim --- Tim Ellison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Integrated Technical Services http://www.itsco.com/ Apex, NC USA 919.674.0044 Ext. 25 / 919.674.0045 (FAX) 919.215.6375 - cell PGP public key available at all public KeyServers ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
This is cool. It's great to be able to discuss the nuances of what really goes on within our radios. Spreading the word is a very good thing. I checked out John's(N8UR) web site and I'm inspired. I have an E5052A Signal Source Analyzer setting here and plan to make a few measurements. Here's the plan so far: i. measure phase noise of a 10MHz crystal (it will probably be limited by the E5052A) ii. the 200MHz VF1611 iii. DDS output with VF1611 as the clock at: 1MHz 5MHz 10MHz 50MHz Anyone have any additional ideas? I'm all ears. 73, k2ox -Original Message- From: richard allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:39 PM To: John Ackermann N8UR Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Gentlemen, The DDS does Direct Digital Synthesis hence the name. It does not divide back to anything but runs an phase accumulation engine at 200 MHz (or whatever the clock rate) that produces output values to the dac at that rate. No division is performed. Richard W5SXD John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (01/04/2006 16:09) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, any osc multiplied up widens its sidebands (phase noise) by the multiplication factor and the inverse is also true. The DDS does a 20X to 200MHz and a divide by 20 to get back to 10MHz. I guess it's academic at this point how much jitter is added by the DDS until someone measures it. You're only dividing back to 10MHz if that's the operating frequency. At higher operating frequencies, the division doesn't equal the multiplication (and of course, at lower ones it exceeds it). Measuring the DDS output lets us see the phase noise where it counts, taking into account both multiplication and division, rather than just at the fundamental frequency of the reference. Second, Rubidium standards are not intended to be used as local oscillators. They have terrible phase noise. They are intended to be used in timekeeping. It is their long term drift that excels, not short term phase noise. Agreed in general -- though there's a wide difference in performance between different types of Rb; some use FM modulation of the xtal, which results in horrible phase noise, while others, like the 5065A, don't. My post wasn't suggesting that you use an Rb as the primary reference. However, the DDS output when driven by 10MHz shows the effect of the multiplication, which is all I was trying to do. My web page also has a plot of the HP 5065A phase noise at 10MHz, so you can see the difference in noise between the raw and multiplied frequencies. John http://www.febo.com/geekworks/sdr1k/sdr1k_phase/index.html has screenshots that show the phase noise at the output of the DDS for the standard 200MHz oscillator, and an HP Rubidium frequency standard at 10MHz multiplied by 20 in the DDS. You can clearly see the phase-noise hit caused by the multiplication. John ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
Great plan, John. I only had access to the 5052A for a day, so was pretty limited in what I could do; it's great that you'll be able to carry things forward. The one addition I would suggest is that you duplicate the DDS output measurements using the 10MHz source as well as the VF oscillator. That would add to my sketchy info about the effect of the multiplier on phase noise. I was not happy with the results I got, I think due to the way I was coupling out of the DDS, which was essentially a x1 scope probe with less-than-perfect grounding. After the fact, I redid the connection with a 50 ohm series resistor at U1 pin 6 (actually, mounted into a via on that line) and a short piece of RG-174 feeding a buffer amplifier. I think something like that will give better results. By the way -- I looked at the AD9854 data sheet and it includes several phase noise plots. From those, you would gather that there is a cost in using the internal multiplier, but that it doesn't scale with DDS output frequency. Also, from a quick read you could get the impression that the phase noise of the reference clock doesn't really matter (within reason, of course); they show the output phase noise plot without any reference to the noise of the clock. 73, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is cool. It's great to be able to discuss the nuances of what really goes on within our radios. Spreading the word is a very good thing. I checked out John's(N8UR) web site and I'm inspired. I have an E5052A Signal Source Analyzer setting here and plan to make a few measurements. Here's the plan so far: i. measure phase noise of a 10MHz crystal (it will probably be limited by the E5052A) ii. the 200MHz VF1611 iii. DDS output with VF1611 as the clock at: 1MHz 5MHz 10MHz 50MHz Anyone have any additional ideas? I'm all ears. 73, k2ox -Original Message- From: richard allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:39 PM To: John Ackermann N8UR Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Gentlemen, The DDS does Direct Digital Synthesis hence the name. It does not divide back to anything but runs an phase accumulation engine at 200 MHz (or whatever the clock rate) that produces output values to the dac at that rate. No division is performed. Richard W5SXD John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (01/04/2006 16:09) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, any osc multiplied up widens its sidebands (phase noise) by the multiplication factor and the inverse is also true. The DDS does a 20X to 200MHz and a divide by 20 to get back to 10MHz. I guess it's academic at this point how much jitter is added by the DDS until someone measures it. You're only dividing back to 10MHz if that's the operating frequency. At higher operating frequencies, the division doesn't equal the multiplication (and of course, at lower ones it exceeds it). Measuring the DDS output lets us see the phase noise where it counts, taking into account both multiplication and division, rather than just at the fundamental frequency of the reference. Second, Rubidium standards are not intended to be used as local oscillators. They have terrible phase noise. They are intended to be used in timekeeping. It is their long term drift that excels, not short term phase noise. Agreed in general -- though there's a wide difference in performance between different types of Rb; some use FM modulation of the xtal, which results in horrible phase noise, while others, like the 5065A, don't. My post wasn't suggesting that you use an Rb as the primary reference. However, the DDS output when driven by 10MHz shows the effect of the multiplication, which is all I was trying to do. My web page also has a plot of the HP 5065A phase noise at 10MHz, so you can see the difference in noise between the raw and multiplied frequencies. John http://www.febo.com/geekworks/sdr1k/sdr1k_phase/index.html has screenshots that show the phase noise at the output of the DDS for the standard 200MHz oscillator, and an HP Rubidium frequency standard at 10MHz multiplied by 20 in the DDS. You can clearly see the phase-noise hit caused by the multiplication. John ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] Audio processing advice with the Presonus FireBox
I should have mentioned when I originally posted this that care needs to be taken to make sure that the Cubase software does NOT use the same output channel as the PowerSDR software. Not taking proper precautions here could cause the full output voltage (~6V) to be put into the radio which will likely cause damage to the SDR-1000 hardware. Make doubly sure PowerSDR audio is the only thing driving the radio directly. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of Eric Wachsmann - FlexRadio Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:39 AM To: 'Tim Ellison'; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Audio processing advice with the Presonus FireBox Tim, There is a reason that many people recognize the Cubase software name. They are simply at the top of the game. You can use the version that ships with the PreSonus Firebox in combination with the PowerSDR software for fantastic results. The only con I can think of in this setup is that it does require another D/A - A/D connection (from output 5/6 to Mic Input 1). But what this allows is using all of the parametric EQs and all the other bells and whistles in Cubase to make your audio sound just like you want it. The flat frequency response of the SDR-1000 transmitter is what allows us to use processed audio coming into the PowerSDR software and it comes out on the air just as you hear it on the monitor. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of Tim Ellison Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:41 PM To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Audio processing advice with the Presonus FireBox I an considering getting the FireBox for some portable operations. Before making that purchase I wanted to inquire to those who have been using it and wanted to get some feedback. Since I haven't seen any posts related to the FireBox and it not working correctly, I'll assume that is the case. My question has to do with audio processing. I have always been told that for the optimal audio chain goes something like this: Mic-preamp-EQ-compressor/limiter-effects Now I don't plan on using all that type of processing, but I do like using an EQ and currently the PowerSDR EQ is currently being re-coded. Since the FireBox has a preamp for the two XLR inputs and there isn't anything like an effects loop, what options would I have for signal process pre-SDR1K? What would be the cons for EQing a signal before the preamp? I see where you can use VST plug-ins for QuBase. Has anyone done this and what were the results? -Tim --- Tim Ellison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Integrated Technical Services http://www.itsco.com/ Apex, NC USA 919.674.0044 Ext. 25 / 919.674.0045 (FAX) 919.215.6375 - cell PGP public key available at all public KeyServers ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
The DDS does in fact divide the clock down. Let me give an example. To make it easier for me to explain, let's take the case of outputting a square wave. In this case the phase to amplitude lookup table has the first half of the table filled with ones and the second half filled with zeros. Now if you set the tuning word 'M' so that it jumps through the table twice the output is a square wave at the 1/2 the clock freq. If you set to tuning word so that it jumps through the table 4 times the output is 1/4 the clock rate and so on. Therefore the phase accumulator is actually a modulo-M counter that increments its value by 'M' each time it receives a clock pulse. The basic tuning equation is Fout = Fclk*(M/(2**n)), where M is the tuning word and n is the length in bits of the phase accumulator. Regards, k2ox -Original Message- From: richard allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:39 PM To: John Ackermann N8UR Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Gentlemen, The DDS does Direct Digital Synthesis hence the name. It does not divide back to anything but runs an phase accumulation engine at 200 MHz (or whatever the clock rate) that produces output values to the dac at that rate. No division is performed. Richard W5SXD John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (01/04/2006 16:09) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, any osc multiplied up widens its sidebands (phase noise) by the multiplication factor and the inverse is also true. The DDS does a 20X to 200MHz and a divide by 20 to get back to 10MHz. I guess it's academic at this point how much jitter is added by the DDS until someone measures it. You're only dividing back to 10MHz if that's the operating frequency. At higher operating frequencies, the division doesn't equal the multiplication (and of course, at lower ones it exceeds it). Measuring the DDS output lets us see the phase noise where it counts, taking into account both multiplication and division, rather than just at the fundamental frequency of the reference. Second, Rubidium standards are not intended to be used as local oscillators. They have terrible phase noise. They are intended to be used in timekeeping. It is their long term drift that excels, not short term phase noise. Agreed in general -- though there's a wide difference in performance between different types of Rb; some use FM modulation of the xtal, which results in horrible phase noise, while others, like the 5065A, don't. My post wasn't suggesting that you use an Rb as the primary reference. However, the DDS output when driven by 10MHz shows the effect of the multiplication, which is all I was trying to do. My web page also has a plot of the HP 5065A phase noise at 10MHz, so you can see the difference in noise between the raw and multiplied frequencies. John http://www.febo.com/geekworks/sdr1k/sdr1k_phase/index.html has screenshots that show the phase noise at the output of the DDS for the standard 200MHz oscillator, and an HP Rubidium frequency standard at 10MHz multiplied by 20 in the DDS. You can clearly see the phase-noise hit caused by the multiplication. John ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] Pre 10 *WARNING* TX 11 KHz below RX
Eric and all, I did the below, and installed the revised Pre 10. Won't run. Get a fatal error. 73, Chas W1CG At 05:51 PM 1/4/2006, Eric Wachsmann - FlexRadio wrote: The best way to do this is to go through the Control Panel - Add/Remove Programs and remove Preview 10 there. That should allow you to reinstall the corrected P10. This was a quick fix and we will likely have a P11 out by the end of the week to clear up the mess. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: Dale Richardson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 4:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Pre 10 *WARNING* TX 11 KHz below RX I deleted the original preview 10 and downloaded the new version. When I try to install it I get a screen that says another preview 10 is already installed. Where could it be installed at? I have searched the computer and I don't see anything on preview 10. There is nothing in the Add/Remove programs function of Control Panel either. 73, Dale AA5XE Eric Wachsmann - FlexRadio wrote: John, Thanks for the heads up on this (Also thanks to KM0T who saw the same issue). This was an ordering problem that was introduced with the fix for the X2 issue. I am posting a new version of Preview 10 that has the problem corrected. Please uninstall preview 10 and download the one on the site now if you plan to transmit. An updated source will also be provided. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 1:03 PM To: mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.bizFlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] Pre 10 *WARNING* TX 11 KHz below RX I just tried Pre 10 on 40M. Tx SSB is 11 KHz below the Rx freq. 73, k2ox ___ FlexRadio mailing list mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.bizFlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.bizFlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
[Flexradio] CuBase PowerSDR don't get along together
OK folks. I got my Firebox today, used the quick start guide and got it working in minutes. No problems. I loaded CuBase, didn't even open the application and when I try to run PowerSDR (any flavor from 1.44 up) I get a fatal error. It fails at the point where the splash screen says Initializing PortAudio Fatal Error Message: Object reference not set to an instance object at PowerSDR.PA19PA_Initialize() at PowerSDR.Console.ctor(String[] args) at PowerSDR.Console.Main(String[] args) I then get the Application Error: The instruction at 0x7c83fc3e reference memory 0x. The memory could not be read. I presume that CuBase is mucking with the sound card drivers some how. Anybody running these two programs together successfully? If so I'd appreciate any assistance. The CuBase audio process with VST plug-ins is AWSOME and I'd really like these things to play well together. -Tim --- Tim Ellison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Integrated Technical Services http://www.itsco.com/ Apex, NC USA 919.674.0044 Ext. 25 / 919.674.0045 (FAX) 919.215.6375 - cell PGP public key available at all public KeyServers
Re: [Flexradio] CuBase PowerSDR don't get along together
A. Reproducibility - the mark of a good bug. My apologizes for not reading today's posts before diving into CuBase. New toys, you know? -Tim --- Tim Ellison ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Integrated Technical Services ( http://www.itsco.com ) -Original Message- From: Charles Greene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:47 PM To: Tim Ellison Subject: Re: [Flexradio] CuBase PowerSDR don't get along together Tim, That's exactly what I got. See my message to Eric W with cc to you i just sent a couple of minutes ago. 73, Chas, W1CG At 05:39 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote: OK folks. I got my Firebox today, used the quick start guide and got it working in minutes. No problems. I loaded CuBase, didn't even open the application and when I try to run PowerSDR (any flavor from 1.44 up) I get a fatal error. It fails at the point where the splash screen says Initializing PortAudio Fatal Error Message: Object reference not set to an instance object at PowerSDR.PA19PA_Initialize() at PowerSDR.Console.ctor(String[] args) at PowerSDR.Console.Main(String[] args) I then get the Application Error: The instruction at 0x7c83fc3e reference memory 0x. The memory could not be read. I presume that CuBase is mucking with the sound card drivers some how. Anybody running these two programs together successfully? If so I'd appreciate any assistance. The CuBase audio process with VST plug-ins is AWSOME and I'd really like these things to play well together. -Tim --- Tim Ellison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Integrated Technical Services http://www.itsco.com/ Apex, NC USA 919.674.0044 Ext. 25 / 919.674.0045 (FAX) 919.215.6375 - cell PGP public key available at all public KeyServers ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] CuBase PowerSDR don't get along together
Tim, Strangely enough, I had problems when I tried to duplicate my earlier test. When I tried to install Cubase LE on my system, it hang with the message skipping file on some font stein___.ttf. I was able to start the program from the executable in the program menu, but this didn't make me feel too comfortable with it. Initially, I was unable to reproduce my earlier tests. However, after I rebooted, things seemed to straighten out. I set the device in Cubase to use the FireBox and set it to use Output 5/6 and Input Mic 2 and things worked just as they had before. I was able to use the Cubase EQ to modify the audio going into Mic 1 (via patch cable) and the audio in PowerSDR changed as seen on the panadapter. I'm not sure what happened on the installation, but I'll let you know what I find when/if I get it worked out. Eric Wachsmann FlexRadio Systems -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] radio.biz] On Behalf Of Tim Ellison Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:39 PM To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [Flexradio] CuBase PowerSDR don't get along together OK folks. I got my Firebox today, used the quick start guide and got it working in minutes. No problems. I loaded CuBase, didn't even open the application and when I try to run PowerSDR (any flavor from 1.44 up) I get a fatal error. It fails at the point where the splash screen says Initializing PortAudio Fatal Error Message: Object reference not set to an instance object at PowerSDR.PA19PA_Initialize() at PowerSDR.Console.ctor(String[] args) at PowerSDR.Console.Main(String[] args) I then get the Application Error: The instruction at 0x7c83fc3e reference memory 0x. The memory could not be read. I presume that CuBase is mucking with the sound card drivers some how. Anybody running these two programs together successfully? If so I'd appreciate any assistance. The CuBase audio process with VST plug-ins is AWSOME and I'd really like these things to play well together. -Tim --- Tim Ellison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Integrated Technical Services http://www.itsco.com/ Apex, NC USA 919.674.0044 Ext. 25 / 919.674.0045 (FAX) 919.215.6375 - cell PGP public key available at all public KeyServers ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! Bob K5KDN is working on a Timebase board, chassis etc and has a Jupiter and nice 10 mhz Ovenized VCXO interfaced and building a board which will squat down on the DIP connector on the Jupiter. On the Xylo side Bill - KD5TFD published a picture of his breadboard of the Jupiter interfacing to the Xylo board, which will eventually pass frequency/phase information back to the PowerSDR software. I am looking for more information on anyone who has produced a complete circuit design published here several months ago by Tom Clark. Based on an original design by Tom van Baak and enhanced by Tom Clark. This is really an inspired design! PIC header is published here without permission, however, I did not note a copyright, and Tom made it available on the Forum several months ago. If it uses 10 MHZ this is the way to go! ; -- ; ; Title: ; ; 10 MHz frequency divider ; ; Function: ; ; This PIC 16c84 program is designed to divide a 10 MHz frequency ; source down to 1 Hz (1 PPS). ; ; Since several extra output pins are available the program creates ; a total of 9 square wave outputs -- one for each frequency decade ; from 100 kHz to 0.001 Hz (1000 s). ; ; A STOP input and a 1 PPS synchronization input are also provided. ; Raising the STOP input high stops and resets the divider. The ; divider resumes on the leading edge of the 1 PPS SYNC input. The ; 1 PPS output will be synchronized to the 1 PPS SYNC input to less ; than 1.2 us (three PIC instructions at 10 MHz). ; ; The following chip schematic shows the assignment of each pin. ; ;-- -- ; 100 kHz - RA2 |1--- 18| RA1 - Red LED ; Green LED - RA3 |2 17| RA0 = Stop input ; 1PPS SYNC = T0CKI/RA4 |3 16| OSC1/CLKIN = 10 MHz input ;+5 VDC - /MCLR |4 15| OSC2/CLKOUT -- N/C ; GND - Vss |5 16C84 14| Vdd - +5 VDC ;10 kHz - INT/RB0 |6 13| RB7 - 1000 s ; 1 kHz - RB1 |7 12| RB6 - 100 s ; 100 Hz - RB2 |8 11| RB5 - 10 s ;10 Hz - RB3 |9 10| RB4 - 1 Hz / 1 PPS ;--- ; ; Implementation: ; ; To generate a 10 kHz square wave at 50% duty cycle an output pin ; must be flipped every 50 us (125 instructions at 10 MHz clock). ; This program does not use TMR0, the pre-scaler, or interrupts. ; Instead it relies on the fact that given an accurate 10 MHz clock ; each PIC instruction takes precisely 400 ns and the main loop has ; been designed to use exactly 125 instructions. ; ; The 100 kHz frequency (10 us period) is generated by setting an ; output pin on and off every 25 cycles. Since 25 is an odd number ; it is not possible for the PIC to generate this square wave with ; a 50% duty cycle. Instead a 20% duty cycle (5 cylcles on and 20 ; cycles off) was chosen for this frequency output. A total of 5 ; pairs of 100 kHz bit set/clear code are carefully interspersed ; within the 50 us main loop. ; ; Pins RA0 and RA4 are not used to drive a LED. RA4 is a Schmidt ; trigger input and O.C. output. It is used as the SYNC input. ; The data sheet says not to toggle RA0 under some conditions so ; it is used as the STOP input. ; ; Version: ; ; 1998-Aug-05, Version 4, tvb ; ; -- ; Using Microhip assembler. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Great plan, John. I only had access to the 5052A for a day, so was pretty limited in what I could do; it's great that you'll be able to carry things forward. The one addition I would suggest is that you duplicate the DDS output measurements using the 10MHz source as well as the VF oscillator. That would add to my sketchy info about the effect of the multiplier on phase noise. I was not happy with the results I got, I think due to the way I was coupling out of the DDS, which was essentially a x1 scope probe with less-than-perfect grounding. After the fact, I redid the connection with a 50 ohm series resistor at U1 pin 6 (actually, mounted into a via on that line) and a short piece of RG-174 feeding a buffer amplifier. I think something like that will give better results. By the way -- I looked at the AD9854 data sheet and it includes several phase noise plots. From those, you would gather that there is a cost in using the internal multiplier, but that it
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
Sorry I couldn't join in the fun; just too many things going on. TVB's PIC divider is a really elegant hack, and works very well. I'm currently working on a project for TAPR for a universal divider (to take any common frequency standard output and drop it to 1pps) and started out planning to use the PIC design, but changed to a CPLD because that offered more flexibility (or at least a more comprehensible programming model) for what I was trying to do, which has more options than Tom considered. I suspect that if you're doing something with an FPGA or CPLD anyway, you'll have the gates available in that chip to do the division without having to add another device, so I'd consider that first before adding another block to the system. John Eric Ellison said the following on 01/05/2006 07:14 PM: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! Bob K5KDN is working on a Timebase board, chassis etc and has a Jupiter and nice 10 mhz Ovenized VCXO interfaced and building a board which will squat down on the DIP connector on the Jupiter. On the Xylo side Bill - KD5TFD published a picture of his breadboard of the Jupiter interfacing to the Xylo board, which will eventually pass frequency/phase information back to the PowerSDR software. I am looking for more information on anyone who has produced a complete circuit design published here several months ago by Tom Clark. Based on an original design by Tom van Baak and enhanced by Tom Clark. This is really an inspired design! PIC header is published here without permission, however, I did not note a copyright, and Tom made it available on the Forum several months ago. If it uses 10 MHZ this is the way to go! ; -- ; ; Title: ; ; 10 MHz frequency divider ; ; Function: ; ; This PIC 16c84 program is designed to divide a 10 MHz frequency ; source down to 1 Hz (1 PPS). ; ; Since several extra output pins are available the program creates ; a total of 9 square wave outputs -- one for each frequency decade ; from 100 kHz to 0.001 Hz (1000 s). ; ; A STOP input and a 1 PPS synchronization input are also provided. ; Raising the STOP input high stops and resets the divider. The ; divider resumes on the leading edge of the 1 PPS SYNC input. The ; 1 PPS output will be synchronized to the 1 PPS SYNC input to less ; than 1.2 us (three PIC instructions at 10 MHz). ; ; The following chip schematic shows the assignment of each pin. ; ;-- -- ; 100 kHz - RA2 |1--- 18| RA1 - Red LED ; Green LED - RA3 |2 17| RA0 = Stop input ; 1PPS SYNC = T0CKI/RA4 |3 16| OSC1/CLKIN = 10 MHz input ;+5 VDC - /MCLR |4 15| OSC2/CLKOUT -- N/C ; GND - Vss |5 16C84 14| Vdd - +5 VDC ;10 kHz - INT/RB0 |6 13| RB7 - 1000 s ; 1 kHz - RB1 |7 12| RB6 - 100 s ; 100 Hz - RB2 |8 11| RB5 - 10 s ;10 Hz - RB3 |9 10| RB4 - 1 Hz / 1 PPS ;--- ; ; Implementation: ; ; To generate a 10 kHz square wave at 50% duty cycle an output pin ; must be flipped every 50 us (125 instructions at 10 MHz clock). ; This program does not use TMR0, the pre-scaler, or interrupts. ; Instead it relies on the fact that given an accurate 10 MHz clock ; each PIC instruction takes precisely 400 ns and the main loop has ; been designed to use exactly 125 instructions. ; ; The 100 kHz frequency (10 us period) is generated by setting an ; output pin on and off every 25 cycles. Since 25 is an odd number ; it is not possible for the PIC to generate this square wave with ; a 50% duty cycle. Instead a 20% duty cycle (5 cylcles on and 20 ; cycles off) was chosen for this frequency output. A total of 5 ; pairs of 100 kHz bit set/clear code are carefully interspersed ; within the 50 us main loop. ; ; Pins RA0 and RA4 are not used to drive a LED. RA4 is a Schmidt ; trigger input and O.C. output. It is used as the SYNC input. ; The data sheet says not to toggle RA0 under some conditions so ; it is used as the STOP input. ; ; Version: ; ; 1998-Aug-05, Version 4, tvb ; ; -- ; Using Microhip assembler. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Great plan, John. I only had access to the 5052A for a day, so was
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
At 04:14 PM 1/5/2006, Eric Ellison wrote: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! And of course, people on the WestCoast who happen to have jobs that don't allow them to be home by 5PM James Lux, P.E. Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213 4800 Oak Grove Drive Pasadena CA 91109 tel: (818)354-2075 fax: (818)393-6875
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
Jim Yeah, I've heard that, on the West Coast if you leave at 5 and have a 20 minute commute, you get home by 10. (smile) I'll push it up some in the future. I'm old and pretty much fade by 9 these days. Eric -Original Message- From: Jim Lux [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:17 PM To: Eric Ellison; 'John Ackermann N8UR'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR At 04:14 PM 1/5/2006, Eric Ellison wrote: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! And of course, people on the WestCoast who happen to have jobs that don't allow them to be home by 5PM James Lux, P.E. Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213 4800 Oak Grove Drive Pasadena CA 91109 tel: (818)354-2075 fax: (818)393-6875
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
John Thanks, yep, I really like that design. There is a great deal I think we can do on the FPGA and it may come to pass that we will do what you are suggesting and attempting. I feel certain that we will have enough le's to do it if we have the programmer to do it. We are still just bouncing around ideas for the FPGA, which will probably be a Cyclone II series in the final product. At the moment we are talking about a motherboard, daughtercard project case with 3 or 4 connectors to buss, raw power, inter card signals as well as FPGA connections across a 96 pin buss. Nothing has been decided regarding what will go on what card but the FPGA and HS USB might locically be on one card, audio processing on another etc. That way we will have the basis to use the FPGA for a lot of things, even yet to be determined. If our little 'project case' comes to fruition, it could even be used to house stand alone boards not even using the FPGA. Phil Harman - VK6APH and Bill Tracy KD5TFD are already working on the audio processing with the Wolfson A/D, although we will probably switch to TI parts for receive and transmit audio processing. Phil and Bill are already successfully digitizing the I/Q and passing it back to the computer over USB and it looks promising. Bill does have the Jupiter interfaced to the FPGA but is just beginning his exploration on that front. OTOH, Bob - K5KDN is working on a conventional design using the division process widely published, on a little circuit board designed to squat on or over the Jupiter GPS board. I think Bob's design and hardware will hit the street before something FPGA generated, and be quite welcome to SDR-1000 owners. I think that Tom and TVB's hack is a good way to go on that board. It is inexpensive, feature packed and the design and code exist for accurate time division and indicators. I just wondered if there was a more complete schematic for this PIC solution. Last night in brainstorming it appears that Bob will incorporate a USB connection to the board he is designing so we can talk to the Jupiter and the SDR software. Really no telling what way we could possibly go. If the Xylo for fun group hangs together and we get various contributions to Verilog and ideas a lot could be built in the little project case, including Oscilloscope, Spectrum Analyzer, high accuracy time base, SDR, etc. Thanks! Eric -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8UR [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:04 PM To: Eric Ellison Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Sorry I couldn't join in the fun; just too many things going on. TVB's PIC divider is a really elegant hack, and works very well. I'm currently working on a project for TAPR for a universal divider (to take any common frequency standard output and drop it to 1pps) and started out planning to use the PIC design, but changed to a CPLD because that offered more flexibility (or at least a more comprehensible programming model) for what I was trying to do, which has more options than Tom considered. I suspect that if you're doing something with an FPGA or CPLD anyway, you'll have the gates available in that chip to do the division without having to add another device, so I'd consider that first before adding another block to the system. John Eric Ellison said the following on 01/05/2006 07:14 PM: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! Bob K5KDN is working on a Timebase board, chassis etc and has a Jupiter and nice 10 mhz Ovenized VCXO interfaced and building a board which will squat down on the DIP connector on the Jupiter. On the Xylo side Bill - KD5TFD published a picture of his breadboard of the Jupiter interfacing to the Xylo board, which will eventually pass frequency/phase information back to the PowerSDR software. I am looking for more information on anyone who has produced a complete circuit design published here several months ago by Tom Clark. Based on an original design by Tom van Baak and enhanced by Tom Clark. This is really an inspired design! PIC header is published here without permission, however, I did not note a copyright, and Tom made it available on the Forum several months ago. If it uses 10 MHZ this is the way to go! ; -- ; ; Title: ; ; 10 MHz frequency divider ; ; Function: ; ; This PIC 16c84 program is designed to divide a 10 MHz frequency ; source down to 1 Hz (1 PPS). ; ; Since several extra output pins are available the program creates ; a total of 9 square wave outputs -- one for each frequency decade ; from 100 kHz to 0.001 Hz (1000 s). ; ; A STOP input and a 1 PPS synchronization input are also
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
I must have missed the change in schedule of the Teamspeak meeting, is this change permanent? At 06:14 PM 1/5/2006, Eric Ellison wrote: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! Bob K5KDN is working on a Timebase board, chassis etc and has a Jupiter and nice 10 mhz Ovenized VCXO interfaced and building a board which will squat down on the DIP connector on the Jupiter. On the Xylo side Bill - KD5TFD published a picture of his breadboard of the Jupiter interfacing to the Xylo board, which will eventually pass frequency/phase information back to the PowerSDR software. I am looking for more information on anyone who has produced a complete circuit design published here several months ago by Tom Clark. Based on an original design by Tom van Baak and enhanced by Tom Clark. This is really an inspired design! PIC header is published here without permission, however, I did not note a copyright, and Tom made it available on the Forum several months ago. If it uses 10 MHZ this is the way to go! ; -- ; ; Title: ; ; 10 MHz frequency divider ; ; Function: ; ; This PIC 16c84 program is designed to divide a 10 MHz frequency ; source down to 1 Hz (1 PPS). ; ; Since several extra output pins are available the program creates ; a total of 9 square wave outputs -- one for each frequency decade ; from 100 kHz to 0.001 Hz (1000 s). ; ; A STOP input and a 1 PPS synchronization input are also provided. ; Raising the STOP input high stops and resets the divider. The ; divider resumes on the leading edge of the 1 PPS SYNC input. The ; 1 PPS output will be synchronized to the 1 PPS SYNC input to less ; than 1.2 us (three PIC instructions at 10 MHz). ; ; The following chip schematic shows the assignment of each pin. ; ;-- -- ; 100 kHz - RA2 |1--- 18| RA1 - Red LED ; Green LED - RA3 |2 17| RA0 = Stop input ; 1PPS SYNC = T0CKI/RA4 |3 16| OSC1/CLKIN = 10 MHz input ;+5 VDC - /MCLR |4 15| OSC2/CLKOUT -- N/C ; GND - Vss |5 16C84 14| Vdd - +5 VDC ;10 kHz - INT/RB0 |6 13| RB7 - 1000 s ; 1 kHz - RB1 |7 12| RB6 - 100 s ; 100 Hz - RB2 |8 11| RB5 - 10 s ;10 Hz - RB3 |9 10| RB4 - 1 Hz / 1 PPS ;--- ; ; Implementation: ; ; To generate a 10 kHz square wave at 50% duty cycle an output pin ; must be flipped every 50 us (125 instructions at 10 MHz clock). ; This program does not use TMR0, the pre-scaler, or interrupts. ; Instead it relies on the fact that given an accurate 10 MHz clock ; each PIC instruction takes precisely 400 ns and the main loop has ; been designed to use exactly 125 instructions. ; ; The 100 kHz frequency (10 us period) is generated by setting an ; output pin on and off every 25 cycles. Since 25 is an odd number ; it is not possible for the PIC to generate this square wave with ; a 50% duty cycle. Instead a 20% duty cycle (5 cylcles on and 20 ; cycles off) was chosen for this frequency output. A total of 5 ; pairs of 100 kHz bit set/clear code are carefully interspersed ; within the 50 us main loop. ; ; Pins RA0 and RA4 are not used to drive a LED. RA4 is a Schmidt ; trigger input and O.C. output. It is used as the SYNC input. ; The data sheet says not to toggle RA0 under some conditions so ; it is used as the STOP input. ; ; Version: ; ; 1998-Aug-05, Version 4, tvb ; ; -- ; Using Microhip assembler. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Great plan, John. I only had access to the 5052A for a day, so was pretty limited in what I could do; it's great that you'll be able to carry things forward. The one addition I would suggest is that you duplicate the DDS output measurements using the 10MHz source as well as the VF oscillator. That would add to my sketchy info about the effect of the multiplier on phase noise. I was not happy with the results I got, I think due to the way I was coupling out of the DDS, which was essentially a x1 scope probe with less-than-perfect grounding. After the fact, I redid the connection with a 50 ohm series resistor at U1 pin 6 (actually, mounted into a via on that line) and a short piece of RG-174 feeding a buffer amplifier. I think something like that will give better results. By the way -- I looked at the AD9854 data sheet and it includes
Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR
Cecil No you didn't miss. This was just for the Time Nuts! I punned it It's about time... Most of the Time Nuts didn't attend. I am going to make it much later Eastern time next time so Jim can get home in time to spend some time on Teamspeak. I think that would be his first time. I didn't realize it but we had a time conflict last night since the Rose Bowl committee picked our time to have the game. Flex-Radio-Friends weekly teamspeak forum is same time same station on Friday at 0100. See you next time. Eric2 -Original Message- From: KD5NWA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:47 PM To: Eric Ellison Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR I must have missed the change in schedule of the Teamspeak meeting, is this change permanent? At 06:14 PM 1/5/2006, Eric Ellison wrote: Folks Missed you on our Teamspeak session last night It's about time! Had a good discussion amongst a few people working on both the projects (Xylo) and Flex. Guess the fantastic Texas - USC entertainment got most others! Bob K5KDN is working on a Timebase board, chassis etc and has a Jupiter and nice 10 mhz Ovenized VCXO interfaced and building a board which will squat down on the DIP connector on the Jupiter. On the Xylo side Bill - KD5TFD published a picture of his breadboard of the Jupiter interfacing to the Xylo board, which will eventually pass frequency/phase information back to the PowerSDR software. I am looking for more information on anyone who has produced a complete circuit design published here several months ago by Tom Clark. Based on an original design by Tom van Baak and enhanced by Tom Clark. This is really an inspired design! PIC header is published here without permission, however, I did not note a copyright, and Tom made it available on the Forum several months ago. If it uses 10 MHZ this is the way to go! ; -- ; ; Title: ; ; 10 MHz frequency divider ; ; Function: ; ; This PIC 16c84 program is designed to divide a 10 MHz frequency ; source down to 1 Hz (1 PPS). ; ; Since several extra output pins are available the program creates ; a total of 9 square wave outputs -- one for each frequency decade ; from 100 kHz to 0.001 Hz (1000 s). ; ; A STOP input and a 1 PPS synchronization input are also provided. ; Raising the STOP input high stops and resets the divider. The ; divider resumes on the leading edge of the 1 PPS SYNC input. The ; 1 PPS output will be synchronized to the 1 PPS SYNC input to less ; than 1.2 us (three PIC instructions at 10 MHz). ; ; The following chip schematic shows the assignment of each pin. ; ;-- -- ; 100 kHz - RA2 |1--- 18| RA1 - Red LED ; Green LED - RA3 |2 17| RA0 = Stop input ; 1PPS SYNC = T0CKI/RA4 |3 16| OSC1/CLKIN = 10 MHz input ;+5 VDC - /MCLR |4 15| OSC2/CLKOUT -- N/C ; GND - Vss |5 16C84 14| Vdd - +5 VDC ;10 kHz - INT/RB0 |6 13| RB7 - 1000 s ; 1 kHz - RB1 |7 12| RB6 - 100 s ; 100 Hz - RB2 |8 11| RB5 - 10 s ;10 Hz - RB3 |9 10| RB4 - 1 Hz / 1 PPS ;--- ; ; Implementation: ; ; To generate a 10 kHz square wave at 50% duty cycle an output pin ; must be flipped every 50 us (125 instructions at 10 MHz clock). ; This program does not use TMR0, the pre-scaler, or interrupts. ; Instead it relies on the fact that given an accurate 10 MHz clock ; each PIC instruction takes precisely 400 ns and the main loop has ; been designed to use exactly 125 instructions. ; ; The 100 kHz frequency (10 us period) is generated by setting an ; output pin on and off every 25 cycles. Since 25 is an odd number ; it is not possible for the PIC to generate this square wave with ; a 50% duty cycle. Instead a 20% duty cycle (5 cylcles on and 20 ; cycles off) was chosen for this frequency output. A total of 5 ; pairs of 100 kHz bit set/clear code are carefully interspersed ; within the 50 us main loop. ; ; Pins RA0 and RA4 are not used to drive a LED. RA4 is a Schmidt ; trigger input and O.C. output. It is used as the SYNC input. ; The data sheet says not to toggle RA0 under some conditions so ; it is used as the STOP input. ; ; Version: ; ; 1998-Aug-05, Version 4, tvb ; ; -- ; Using Microhip assembler. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] DIP OCXO for SDR Great plan, John. I only had access to the 5052A for a day, so was pretty limited in what I could do; it's great that you'll be able
