Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 18:21:58 -0400 Allan Jude allanj...@freebsd.org wrote: On 2014-10-20 17:15, Chris H wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:32:53 -0400 Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.org wrote On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 02:58:57PM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: I think the advantages of the forum are... *Well moderated by moderators and anministrators. *Registering email address is needed, but not disclosed by default. The disadvantages of web fora include: * I can't read things in my very efficient email client. Related: * I have to compose my replies in a web browser edit window. * I need to visit periodically and hope that the site makes it possible for me to attend to unread messages without struggling. I think wikis are useful. I think web fora exist because folks haven't had sufficient exposure to email to make the advantages clear. Not discussed here are newsgroups, which are perhaps ideal for the sorts of topics commonly found on mailing lists, except perhaps that they're not at all centralized. This thread reeks of bikeshed. There isn't anything wrong with all of the opinions shared in this thread except there will surely be no final consensus. :) --Chris -- Mason Loring Bliss (( In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams ma...@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan. - Rabindranath Tagore ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org This thread is supposed to be about how to make it easier for people to migrate to FreeBSD from Linux. Not a discussion about forums vs mailing lists vs newsgroups. -- Allan Jude I guess. So I won't post further discussion about Forum vs ML vs ... in this thread. (Will pop in again if another thread purely for that is created. But as Chris noted later, there would be no final consensus.) Sorry for noise and long delay. -- Tomoaki AOKIjunch...@dec.sakura.ne.jp ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 02:34:13PM -0400, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 09:14:07AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: I agree that this would be useful, but it requires someone familiar with both systems to write. Doing this stuff professionally, I could probably come up with equivalences for a number of Unices. What would be a reasonable path to getting write privs on the wiki? Thanks for volunteering! :) Please register with your realname and I can give you the needed rights. I just created a first draft comparing pkg, ports and apt / dpkg: https://wiki.freebsd.org/PackageManagerRosettaStone Feel free to edit and add things as needed. pgpTxArBNVmpM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:20:20AM +0200, Lars Engels wrote: Please register with your realname and I can give you the needed rights. A snag... When I click 'Logic' at the top of the page it brings me to the login form, which has a link to https://wiki.freebsd.org/action/newaccount/FrontPage?action=newaccount However, this produces a red error icon and the message Unknown action newaccount. I'll be happy to sign up once this is resolved, one way or the other. -- Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.orghttp://blisses.org/ I am a brother of jackals, and a companion of ostriches. (Job 30 : 29) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:20:20AM +0200, Lars Engels wrote: Please register with your realname and I can give you the needed rights. A snag... When I click 'Logic' at the top of the page it brings me to the login form, which has a link to https://wiki.freebsd.org/action/newaccount/FrontPage?action=newaccount However, this produces a red error icon and the message Unknown action newaccount. I'll be happy to sign up once this is resolved, one way or the other. If I remember correctly, a committer needs to request the wiki account creation for a given user name and associated email address. I think you should send those (offlist) to Lars or me, and we can make the actual request. -Ben ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 21 Oct 2014, at 00:15, Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.org wrote: The second thing that would be useful would be a series of cheat sheets for various things. This can either be equivalent commands or equivalent systems. Let new folks know that LUKS is GELI and that md-raid1 is gmirror and so forth. Show common package handling commands for various Linux flavours and map them to pkgng and ports. For instance, what's the equivalent of yum provides? Or what do I do in place of apt-cache search or zypper up or similar. I agree that this would be useful, but it requires someone familiar with both systems to write. Perhaps you could help by coming up with a list of things that you did frequently with Debian and a description of what they did, then someone more familiar with the FreeBSD side can help fill in any gaps where you haven't yet worked out what the FreeBSD equivalent is (or, if there isn't a FreeBSD equivalent, then we have a useful feature request). Other things in the grab bag... It's generally said that ports and pkgs shouldn't mix, but there are at least a couple instances where it's unavoidable: I bet roughly no one who installs Subversion wants the FreeBSD bug report headers baked in by default, but there they are unless you rebuild from ports with a non-default configuration. It's worth noting that the FreeBSD headers don't affect operation. Subversion only adds the headers to the commit message if they're modified. I think that the fix for this is to add a line at the top saying # Things below this line are only included if modified I find that I do occasionally use those in other projects. If you want to watch DVDs on your FreeBSD workstation, it's necessary to install libdvdcss, but you can't get it from pkgng because it's not there. Again, you must build from ports. Really? I've installed vlc from packages and it seems able to play DVDs. I don't remember having to do anything special. Perhaps I had an old version of libdecss installed. I thought that CSS had been ruled not to be an 'effective copyright protection mechanism' in the US, so wasn't covered by the DMCA anymore. I have nothing against ports, but people are warned off of mixing packages and ports when clearly it's necessary sometimes. Oh, here's one. I *was* horrified by ports at first, until someone told me about make config-recursive. It really makes me wonder why this isn't the default. I remember giving up on FreeBSD when 9.x was new because I had to build X from ports after the FreeBSD breach, and it seemed like the process was going to take a couple days of stuttering stops and starts as random packages I didn't want in some cases popped up between compiles. I learned some mechanism for saying just take the defaults but what I know now is that what I really wanted was make config-recursive. Why, out of curiosity, is it not the default? That would seem better than documenting it harder. The recommended way of building packages now is to use Poudriere. The Poudriere section in the handbook is still very new and contributions are *very* welcome. I think that having an example of 'how to build libdecss from ports' there might be a good idea. There is a plan that each package set should come with a package containing the matching ports tree, so that you can build package from ports that are compatible with the binary ones. That should make a lot of this easier. I think the two cases for Poudriere that need to be in the handbook are: - How to build a few custom packages but mostly use upstream for an individual - How to build a local package repository for your organisation with a load of custom config options for packages built from ports and some custom local-only ports Ah, and one more for the grab bag. I strongly suspect that many folks coming from Linux are going to bristle at the notion of using Sendmail. I used to run it so I wasn't terribly bothered by it, but maybe pre-populating rc.conf with obvious bits that people can see and turn off would be nice. OpenBSD has a nice model of populating rc.conf and sysctl.conf fully, and it ends up being a pleasant tool. Those awash in wonder, coming from Linux, can say, Look, it's all right here! We put those things in /etc/defaults/rc.conf, which makes merges easier on upgrade: the user doesn't touch /etc/defaults/rc.conf and the update tool doesn't touch /etc/rc.conf. Again, if the handbook doesn't tell you to look in /etc/defaults/rc.conf then that's an oversight that we should fix. It might be a good idea to move this thread to the -docs mailing list, as it seems to have identified a number of shortcomings in our documentation and it would be a good idea to try to find some docs people willing to help get them fixed. David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe,
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 09:14:07AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: I agree that this would be useful, but it requires someone familiar with both systems to write. Doing this stuff professionally, I could probably come up with equivalences for a number of Unices. What would be a reasonable path to getting write privs on the wiki? I bet roughly no one who installs Subversion wants the FreeBSD bug report headers baked in by default, It's worth noting that the FreeBSD headers don't affect operation. It mostly violates the principle of least surprise and is a cosmetic blemish. I'd suspect that a lot of people use Subversion for their own or their company development, and the default behaviour looks strange. It was certainly surprising to me in any event. A default of not having that turned on but an option to turn it on seems like the most reasonable thing, given that the option is so closely tied to FreeBSD development. It might be a good idea to move this thread to the -docs mailing list, I will subscribe to that. -- Mason Loring Bliss (( If I have not seen as far as others, it is because ma...@blisses.org )) giants were standing on my shoulders. - Hal Abelson ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 02:58:57PM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: I think the advantages of the forum are... *Well moderated by moderators and anministrators. *Registering email address is needed, but not disclosed by default. The disadvantages of web fora include: * I can't read things in my very efficient email client. Related: * I have to compose my replies in a web browser edit window. * I need to visit periodically and hope that the site makes it possible for me to attend to unread messages without struggling. I think wikis are useful. I think web fora exist because folks haven't had sufficient exposure to email to make the advantages clear. Not discussed here are newsgroups, which are perhaps ideal for the sorts of topics commonly found on mailing lists, except perhaps that they're not at all centralized. -- Mason Loring Bliss (( In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams ma...@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan. - Rabindranath Tagore ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:32:53 -0400 Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.org wrote On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 02:58:57PM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: I think the advantages of the forum are... *Well moderated by moderators and anministrators. *Registering email address is needed, but not disclosed by default. The disadvantages of web fora include: * I can't read things in my very efficient email client. Related: * I have to compose my replies in a web browser edit window. * I need to visit periodically and hope that the site makes it possible for me to attend to unread messages without struggling. I think wikis are useful. I think web fora exist because folks haven't had sufficient exposure to email to make the advantages clear. Not discussed here are newsgroups, which are perhaps ideal for the sorts of topics commonly found on mailing lists, except perhaps that they're not at all centralized. This thread reeks of bikeshed. There isn't anything wrong with all of the opinions shared in this thread except there will surely be no final consensus. :) --Chris -- Mason Loring Bliss (( In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams ma...@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan. - Rabindranath Tagore ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 2014-10-20 17:15, Chris H wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:32:53 -0400 Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.org wrote On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 02:58:57PM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: I think the advantages of the forum are... *Well moderated by moderators and anministrators. *Registering email address is needed, but not disclosed by default. The disadvantages of web fora include: * I can't read things in my very efficient email client. Related: * I have to compose my replies in a web browser edit window. * I need to visit periodically and hope that the site makes it possible for me to attend to unread messages without struggling. I think wikis are useful. I think web fora exist because folks haven't had sufficient exposure to email to make the advantages clear. Not discussed here are newsgroups, which are perhaps ideal for the sorts of topics commonly found on mailing lists, except perhaps that they're not at all centralized. This thread reeks of bikeshed. There isn't anything wrong with all of the opinions shared in this thread except there will surely be no final consensus. :) --Chris -- Mason Loring Bliss (( In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams ma...@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan. - Rabindranath Tagore ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org This thread is supposed to be about how to make it easier for people to migrate to FreeBSD from Linux. Not a discussion about forums vs mailing lists vs newsgroups. -- Allan Jude signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 20 October 2014 15:21, Allan Jude allanj...@freebsd.org wrote: This thread is supposed to be about how to make it easier for people to migrate to FreeBSD from Linux. Not a discussion about forums vs mailing lists vs newsgroups. It turns out those things are intertwined. It turns out that making it easier for people to do 'X' just isn't a handbook and a printed book - it's community building, communication and inclusiveness. All the ease of use in the world doesn't matter if people don't know about it and don't feel a part of of something. If you want to avoid the community building, then it's just a tool - and you should market it as such. :) -adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 06:21:58PM -0400, Allan Jude wrote: This thread is supposed to be about how to make it easier for people to migrate to FreeBSD from Linux. Not a discussion about forums vs mailing lists vs newsgroups. I'm going to transition from being an avid Debian user who hates web fora to an avid FreeBSD who hates web fora. Anyway, my experience here is useful as I've got to be representative of a number of people making the transition lately. It's been a relatively smooth transition so far, with only a couple bugs and quirks in the way of my doing everything I did with Debian. Two things would be principally useful for people coming from Linux. First, the handbook should be updated and corrected, as it's a good enough resource that I've come to depend upon it, but I've hit snags that seem to not reflect the current state of FreeBSD. For instance, the page that talks about running buildworld and buildkernel have some instructions that are evidently vestigal for root-on-ZFS people. Another example, the documentation of Poudriere is hard to follow, presenting a complex and idealized set-up rather than explaining to a new user what the moving parts are and how it all works. I strongly suspect in that case that people who need the Handbook won't easily follow that, and people who can follow it don't need the Handbook per se, or that level of instruction. Joe Armstrong talks about this process of picking an audience in his forward to the second edition of his Erlang book: https://joearms.github.io/2014/06/26/Background-to-programming-erlang.html The second thing that would be useful would be a series of cheat sheets for various things. This can either be equivalent commands or equivalent systems. Let new folks know that LUKS is GELI and that md-raid1 is gmirror and so forth. Show common package handling commands for various Linux flavours and map them to pkgng and ports. For instance, what's the equivalent of yum provides? Or what do I do in place of apt-cache search or zypper up or similar. Other things in the grab bag... It's generally said that ports and pkgs shouldn't mix, but there are at least a couple instances where it's unavoidable: I bet roughly no one who installs Subversion wants the FreeBSD bug report headers baked in by default, but there they are unless you rebuild from ports with a non-default configuration. If you want to watch DVDs on your FreeBSD workstation, it's necessary to install libdvdcss, but you can't get it from pkgng because it's not there. Again, you must build from ports. I have nothing against ports, but people are warned off of mixing packages and ports when clearly it's necessary sometimes. Oh, here's one. I *was* horrified by ports at first, until someone told me about make config-recursive. It really makes me wonder why this isn't the default. I remember giving up on FreeBSD when 9.x was new because I had to build X from ports after the FreeBSD breach, and it seemed like the process was going to take a couple days of stuttering stops and starts as random packages I didn't want in some cases popped up between compiles. I learned some mechanism for saying just take the defaults but what I know now is that what I really wanted was make config-recursive. Why, out of curiosity, is it not the default? That would seem better than documenting it harder. Ah, and one more for the grab bag. I strongly suspect that many folks coming from Linux are going to bristle at the notion of using Sendmail. I used to run it so I wasn't terribly bothered by it, but maybe pre-populating rc.conf with obvious bits that people can see and turn off would be nice. OpenBSD has a nice model of populating rc.conf and sysctl.conf fully, and it ends up being a pleasant tool. Those awash in wonder, coming from Linux, can say, Look, it's all right here! -- Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.orgEwige Blumenkraft! (if awake 'sleep (aref #(sleep dream) (random 2))) -- Hamlet, Act III, Scene I ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 2014-10-20 19:15, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 06:21:58PM -0400, Allan Jude wrote: This thread is supposed to be about how to make it easier for people to migrate to FreeBSD from Linux. Not a discussion about forums vs mailing lists vs newsgroups. I'm going to transition from being an avid Debian user who hates web fora to an avid FreeBSD who hates web fora. Anyway, my experience here is useful as I've got to be representative of a number of people making the transition lately. It's been a relatively smooth transition so far, with only a couple bugs and quirks in the way of my doing everything I did with Debian. Two things would be principally useful for people coming from Linux. Thank you very much for sharing this First, the handbook should be updated and corrected, as it's a good enough resource that I've come to depend upon it, but I've hit snags that seem to not reflect the current state of FreeBSD. For instance, the page that talks about running buildworld and buildkernel have some instructions that are evidently vestigal for root-on-ZFS people. Which parts? Nothing about buildworld is really any different when using ZFS except maybe the way you mount /usr/obj with noatime etc. Another example, the documentation of Poudriere is hard to follow, presenting a complex and idealized set-up rather than explaining to a new user what the moving parts are and how it all works. I strongly suspect in that case that people who need the Handbook won't easily follow that, and people who can follow it don't need the Handbook per se, or that level of instruction. Can you be more specific? The documentation team likes to add 'quick start' sections to the often more complex sections, so that users looking to just get started can do so, and dig into the more advanced options once they have it working. Joe Armstrong talks about this process of picking an audience in his forward to the second edition of his Erlang book: https://joearms.github.io/2014/06/26/Background-to-programming-erlang.html The second thing that would be useful would be a series of cheat sheets for various things. This can either be equivalent commands or equivalent systems. Let new folks know that LUKS is GELI and that md-raid1 is gmirror and so forth. Show common package handling commands for various Linux flavours and map them to pkgng and ports. For instance, what's the equivalent of yum provides? Or what do I do in place of apt-cache search or zypper up or similar. This is what this thread was originally about, creating such cheat sheets. Other things in the grab bag... It's generally said that ports and pkgs shouldn't mix, but there are at least a couple instances where it's unavoidable: This was true with the old package system, since those packages were built work a ports tree snapshot from the date of the release. With the new binary packages being rebuild weekly, it is much less of an issues. One goal is to actually have the version of the ports tree that the most recent binary packages were built with available, so that users who use that would have 0 complications from mixing. Also, there have been some proposed features for pkg to make it aware of which packages were installed from ports, and when 'pkg upgrade' runs, to rebuild those packages from ports with the same options, instead of installing the 'wrong' version from the binary packages, requiring the user to 'pkg lock' or 'pkg annotate' to avoid that. I bet roughly no one who installs Subversion wants the FreeBSD bug report headers baked in by default, but there they are unless you rebuild from ports with a non-default configuration. If you want to watch DVDs on your FreeBSD workstation, it's necessary to install libdvdcss, but you can't get it from pkgng because it's not there. Again, you must build from ports. Binary packages of libdvdcss are not built for legal reasons I have nothing against ports, but people are warned off of mixing packages and ports when clearly it's necessary sometimes. It may be time to revisit this warning, as it may no longer be required. Oh, here's one. I *was* horrified by ports at first, until someone told me about make config-recursive. It really makes me wonder why this isn't the default. I remember giving up on FreeBSD when 9.x was new because I had to build X from ports after the FreeBSD breach, and it seemed like the process was going to take a couple days of stuttering stops and starts as random packages I didn't want in some cases popped up between compiles. I learned some mechanism for saying just take the defaults but what I know now is that what I really wanted was make config-recursive. Why, out of curiosity, is it not the default? That would seem better than documenting it harder. Making config-recursive the default is infact a good idea, unless someone knows a reason it should not be. Ah, and one more for the
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 08:04:14PM -0400, Allan Jude wrote: For instance, the page that talks about running buildworld and buildkernel have some instructions that are evidently vestigal for root-on-ZFS people. Which parts? Nothing about buildworld is really any different when using ZFS except maybe the way you mount /usr/obj with noatime etc. https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/makeworld.html In this case, after shutdown now it suggests turning off a readonly flag that's not on, mounting everything despite nothing being unmounted, and setting the kernel time zone despite that never seeming to be an issue. Can you be more specific? The documentation team likes to add 'quick start' sections to the often more complex sections, so that users looking to just get started can do so, and dig into the more advanced options once they have it working. Sure. https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ports-poudriere.html So, coming at it from scratch, the section has a quick description and notes where to find a sample config file. Then it says It may be convenient to put poudriere datasets in an isolated tree mounted at /poudriere. Defaults for the other configuration values are adequate. However, that's the first appearance of the word dataset so I don't know what it is or why I want a root-level mount for it. Section 5.6.1 has an example invocation: poudriere jail -c -j 10amd64 -v 10.0-RELEASE This might not catch everyone, but the formality of the jail name and the version made me think that the jail name has to be of a certain strict form to work. Maybe it doesn't? It's not entirely clear. Then there's another example invocation: poudriere ports -c -p local It's not altogether clear (to me at least) what this is doing as compared with the -c -i -v invocataion. Again, I suspect I can spend enough time reading docs to figure it out, but that completely negates the value of the Handbook as a primary source for information. After these two somewhat opaque examples, we're told poudriere can build ports with multiple configurations, in multiple jails, and from different port trees and The basic configuration shown here puts a single jail-, port-, and set-specific make.conf in /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d. This one definitely got me, as it seems to suggest that things should live in /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d, but it doesn't specify exactly where. I see something now that I think I missed before, which is that the long string 10amd64-local-workstation-pkglist references bits of text from the first two invocations, but the description of how the string is formulated is somewhat opaque, depending to some extent on the still-undefined set which I presume to mean the same thing as dataset. But, where do I go to find the built packages? I'm guessing at the moment that I'd find them somewhere in /poudriere, but I'm not entirely clear on how different architectures and sets and such are kept distinct... (I spun up a large virtual machine to do a test build and try to observe where things went afterwards, and at that I was still unclear on where, for instance, config options were stored... Anyway, the build exhausted its eight gigs of RAM and the OOM killer made a mess of things, and I haven't had a chance to revisit the process.) It's entirely possible that I'm just old and slow and that this stuff isn't as unclear to me as it seems, but at the very least it's introducing new concepts without defining them and then using them in combinations that don't help the reader to understand how the combinations work. Part of this is inconsistency in formatting - are all the italic bits freeform text that doesn't matter, in the examples? It seems like some of them (FreeBSD version, for example) can't be. Again, a dig through more docs would clarify it, but if that's necessary then this Handbook section seems somewhat inadequate. One goal is to actually have the version of the ports tree that the most recent binary packages were built with available, so that users who use that would have 0 complications from mixing. That would be useful. Also, there have been some proposed features for pkg to make it aware of which packages were installed from ports, and when 'pkg upgrade' runs, to rebuild those packages from ports with the same options, instead of installing the 'wrong' version from the binary packages, requiring the user to 'pkg lock' or 'pkg annotate' to avoid that. Hm, I'm as yet unfamiliar with those two commands, but again, that sounds pretty useful. Binary packages of libdvdcss are not built for legal reasons I figured as much - Debian doesn't ship it at all, for comparison, leaving the user in an even worse position. It was a cause of stress when I also had don't mix pkgs and ports emblazoned across my vision. Worth noting is that my world hasn't ended mixing the two, to the point where I'm doing so fairly freely. Making
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:11:50 +0800 Erich Dollansky erichsfreebsdl...@alogt.com wrote: Hi. I think the advantages of the forum are... *Well moderated by moderators and anministrators. *Registering email address is needed, but not disclosed by default. These mean no need to worry about increasing spams. In cases off-forum discussion is needed, private message can be used to exchange actual email address. Hi, On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:01:30 -0700 Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Russell L. Carter rcar...@pinyon.org wrote: One complaint I have about the FreeBSD project, is that the core project contributors and developers rely too much on e-mail for communication. This certainly works, and I use it too, but new and casual users getting into FreeBSD may get lost in the maze of FreeBSD mailing lists. It would be nice if more of the core project contributors mailing lists have two advantages I would not like to miss. A) people can create their own archive and use it when they are offline B) Google Co. offer good search tools to search the online archives used the web forums ( http://forums.freebsd.org ), since stuff like I also noticed while travelling that some locations block the forum. Ok, it is rare. that shows up nicely in web searches, and it is easier This is also true for the e-mails. Erich ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- 青木 知明 [Tomoaki AOKI] junch...@dec.sakura.ne.jp mxe02...@nifty.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Russell L. Carter rcar...@pinyon.org wrote: One complaint I have about the FreeBSD project, is that the core project contributors and developers rely too much on e-mail for communication. This certainly works, and I use it too, but new and casual users getting into FreeBSD may get lost in the maze of FreeBSD mailing lists. It would be nice if more of the core project contributors used the web forums ( http://forums.freebsd.org ), since stuff like that shows up nicely in web searches, and it is easier for newcomers to find stuff, and jump in and contribute to threads, versus mailing lists. I just noticed this: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/new-forums-software-online.48495/ The FreeBSD Forums Administration team just upgraded the forum software from phpBB to Xenforo. They migrated 260,000 messages..wow, this is a huge achievement! Xenforo is nice stuff, so hopefully more FreeBSD core developers can take advantage of the forums, in addition to the traditional mailing lists. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Hi, On Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:01:30 -0700 Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Russell L. Carter rcar...@pinyon.org wrote: One complaint I have about the FreeBSD project, is that the core project contributors and developers rely too much on e-mail for communication. This certainly works, and I use it too, but new and casual users getting into FreeBSD may get lost in the maze of FreeBSD mailing lists. It would be nice if more of the core project contributors mailing lists have two advantages I would not like to miss. A) people can create their own archive and use it when they are offline B) Google Co. offer good search tools to search the online archives used the web forums ( http://forums.freebsd.org ), since stuff like I also noticed while travelling that some locations block the forum. Ok, it is rare. that shows up nicely in web searches, and it is easier This is also true for the e-mails. Erich ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Russell L. Carter rcar...@pinyon.org wrote: I love this idea. I recently moved back to FreeBSD after 14 years on debian, and was shocked at how great poudriere + pkg is for maintaining a consistent set of packages for a cluster of systems. (I know it's pitiful compared to the cloud, but I've got 3 FreeBSD and 3 debian-testing atm, and two of those debians are in danger of forced religious conversion. :-) The main reason I moved to debian in the first place is I was working in high user-space and I needed office apps (egads) working consistently and reliably through upgrades, and the ports system then was not up to the job. It is now! Basically, poudriere + pkg is debian apt-file + apt-cache + apt-get + approx with the added benefit of site specific, port-specific options. Maybe like arch? So I would be very willing to contribute to this project, if that makes sense. Wow, it's great to read about your experience. We need to get more experiences like yours mentioned online in blogs, tweets, etc. so that when people go to www.freebsd.org, or do a web search, they can see nice stories like yours. I guess we can move this conversation to the freebsd-doc@ mailing list, as David Chisnall suggested. One complaint I have about the FreeBSD project, is that the core project contributors and developers rely too much on e-mail for communication. This certainly works, and I use it too, but new and casual users getting into FreeBSD may get lost in the maze of FreeBSD mailing lists. It would be nice if more of the core project contributors used the web forums ( http://forums.freebsd.org ), since stuff like that shows up nicely in web searches, and it is easier for newcomers to find stuff, and jump in and contribute to threads, versus mailing lists. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 14 Aug 2014, at 02:34, Russell L. Carter rcar...@pinyon.org wrote: So I would be very willing to contribute to this project, if that makes sense. Best, Russell (what list should this move to? Perhaps ports?) I'd suggest docs. Note that currently, the docs team is the smallest part of FreeBSD, yet is responsible for one of the most important user-facing portions. People interested in joining the docs team are always very welcome. The #bsddocs channel on EFNet is a good place to chat with existing docs folks. David ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Thiago Barroso Perrotta thiagoperrott...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings! First of all, hello. I intended to reply to [1], but since I am new to this mailing list, I found that it would be better to create a new thread (if any of you know how to reply to a mailman message without much trouble, I would appreciate to discover it). I am the author of the post referred in the previous message (Wordpress brought me there). I am liking FreeBSD, and I'll probably migrate soon my current Debian server to it. One of the reasons that I enjoyed FreeBSD is because it is similar to Arch Linux (my current preferred Linux distro) in various ways. Anyways, I just wanted to indicate this [2] link to you. It is a good resource comparing different package manager commands. Right now it does not include FreeBSD's pkg, however I highly encourage you to add one more column to this table, featuring it. There is no problem that pkg is not a Linux thing. Also, I am interested in the direction the original thread could go. As a almost-2,5 years Linux user, I could have discovered FreeBSD before. One of the reasons that I haven't paid much attention to it in the past was just because I didn't know that it had a large community. I thought it was small, not much significant. I'm still confused about the difference between the several BSDs out there (Open, Net, DragonFly, etc) and the relative size of each community, however at least I can see it is significant :) [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2014-July/051429.html [2]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman_rosetta Thiago, I really liked the blog articles you wrote: http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/here-be-dragons-freebsd-overview-part-i/ http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/here-be-packages-freebsd-overview-part-ii/ and you have very good suggestions. You seem like a very positive person, and are willing to make good suggestions and contributions. We (FreeBSD community) should take your suggestions, because you are a newcomer, so you are seeing things with fresh eyes. I am a bit busy these days, but would you have time to maybe help me write some HOWTO's for FreeBSD, especially things that help people migrate from Linux to FreeBSD? Thanks. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:19:16 -0700 Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: Thiago, I really liked the blog articles you wrote: http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/here-be-dragons-freebsd-overview-part-i/ http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/here-be-packages-freebsd-overview-part-ii/ and you have very good suggestions. You seem like a very positive person, and are willing to make good suggestions and contributions. We (FreeBSD community) should take your suggestions, because you are a newcomer, so you are seeing things with fresh eyes. I am a bit busy these days, but would you have time to maybe help me write some HOWTO's for FreeBSD, especially things that help people migrate from Linux to FreeBSD? Thanks. -- Craig Hi Craig, Thanks. I guess we can work that out, feel free to e-mail me and tell what you have in mind whenever you like. -- - Thiago signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 08/13/14 17:37, Thiago Barroso Perrotta wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 15:19:16 -0700 Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: Thiago, I really liked the blog articles you wrote: http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/here-be-dragons-freebsd-overview-part-i/ http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/here-be-packages-freebsd-overview-part-ii/ and you have very good suggestions. You seem like a very positive person, and are willing to make good suggestions and contributions. We (FreeBSD community) should take your suggestions, because you are a newcomer, so you are seeing things with fresh eyes. I am a bit busy these days, but would you have time to maybe help me write some HOWTO's for FreeBSD, especially things that help people migrate from Linux to FreeBSD? Thanks. -- Craig Hi Craig, Thanks. I guess we can work that out, feel free to e-mail me and tell what you have in mind whenever you like. I love this idea. I recently moved back to FreeBSD after 14 years on debian, and was shocked at how great poudriere + pkg is for maintaining a consistent set of packages for a cluster of systems. (I know it's pitiful compared to the cloud, but I've got 3 FreeBSD and 3 debian-testing atm, and two of those debians are in danger of forced religious conversion. :-) The main reason I moved to debian in the first place is I was working in high user-space and I needed office apps (egads) working consistently and reliably through upgrades, and the ports system then was not up to the job. It is now! Basically, poudriere + pkg is debian apt-file + apt-cache + apt-get + approx with the added benefit of site specific, port-specific options. Maybe like arch? So I would be very willing to contribute to this project, if that makes sense. Best, Russell (what list should this move to? Perhaps ports?) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Greetings! First of all, hello. I intended to reply to [1], but since I am new to this mailing list, I found that it would be better to create a new thread (if any of you know how to reply to a mailman message without much trouble, I would appreciate to discover it). I am the author of the post referred in the previous message (Wordpress brought me there). I am liking FreeBSD, and I'll probably migrate soon my current Debian server to it. One of the reasons that I enjoyed FreeBSD is because it is similar to Arch Linux (my current preferred Linux distro) in various ways. Anyways, I just wanted to indicate this [2] link to you. It is a good resource comparing different package manager commands. Right now it does not include FreeBSD's pkg, however I highly encourage you to add one more column to this table, featuring it. There is no problem that pkg is not a Linux thing. Also, I am interested in the direction the original thread could go. As a almost-2,5 years Linux user, I could have discovered FreeBSD before. One of the reasons that I haven't paid much attention to it in the past was just because I didn't know that it had a large community. I thought it was small, not much significant. I'm still confused about the difference between the several BSDs out there (Open, Net, DragonFly, etc) and the relative size of each community, however at least I can see it is significant :) [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2014-July/051429.html [2]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman_rosetta Regards, -- - Thiago signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Greetings! First of all, hello. I intended to reply to [1], but since I am new to this mailing list, I found that it would be better to create a new thread (if any of you know how to reply to a mailman message without much trouble, I would appreciate to discover it). I am the author of the post referred in the previous message (Wordpress brought me here). I am liking FreeBSD, and I'll probably migrate soon my current Debian server to it. One of the reasons that I enjoyed FreeBSD is because it is similar to Arch Linux (my current preferred Linux distro) in various ways. Anyways, I just wanted to indicate this [2] link to you. It is a good resource comparing different package manager commands. Right now it does not include FreeBSD's pkg, however I highly encourage you to add one more column to this table, featuring it. There is no problem that pkg is not a Linux thing. Also, I am interested in the direction the original thread could go. As a almost-2,5 years Linux user, I could have discovered FreeBSD before. One of the reasons that I haven't paid much attention to it in the past was just because I didn't know that it had a large community. I thought it was small, not much significant. I'm still confused about the difference between the several BSDs out there (Open, Net, DragonFly, etc) and the relative size of each community, however at least I can see it is significant :) [1]: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2014-July/051429.html [2]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman_rosetta Regards, -- - Thiago signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: For (2), encouraging people to move away from Linux to FreeBSD on the server, may be something where we can get more wins. I think we can do this by having more HOWTO articles on the FreeBSD web page that explain the following: (1) We need a HOWTO article that explains for each command using apt or yum for installing packages, how can I do the same thing using pkg. Even if we have a web page with a table, contrasting the apt/yum commands, and pkg commands, that would be super useful. A lot of folks have moved away from FreeBSD, purely because they are sick of pkg_add. We need to explain to folks that we have something better, that is quite competitive to apt/yum, and it is easy to use. (2) We need a HOWTO article that explains how to set up a FreeBSD environment with some of the major cloud providers, i.e. Amazon, Rackspace, Microsoft Azure, etc. Hi, While I appreciate the enthusiasm of the responses to this e-mail thread, especially the patches to service(8), I feel that my original e-mail was hijacked into the weeds, and none of the questions that I asked were answered. :) So, I am assuming that no one is working on the HOWTO's that I mentioned in my original e-mail. :) In the latest edition of BSDNow ( http://www.bsdnow.tv/episodes/2014_07_23-des_challenge_iv ), they refer to a blog article where someone who was used to Linux posted their experience setting up FreeBSD: http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/here-be-dragons-freebsd-overview-part-i/ http://thiagoperrotta.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/here-be-packages-freebsd-overview-part-ii/ The Part II article goes in-depth into installing packages, and the user had a positive experience with using pkg, which is great. What I'd like to see is an article on freebsd.org either on the wiki or in the handbook, which compares using apt, yum, rpm, whatever to pkg. Is anyone interested in working on an article like this? I don't have the bandwidth right now. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, 25 Jul 2014, Craig Rodrigues wrote: What I'd like to see is an article on freebsd.org either on the wiki or in the handbook, which compares using apt, yum, rpm, whatever to pkg. Is anyone interested in working on an article like this? I don't have the bandwidth right now. A person to write that article needs detailed knowledge of pkg and the Linux package systems. I don't have that, but would be willing to help you develop an outline for the article. Having a design like that makes it easier to write when time and resources are available. Writing an article is hard. Writing a small section on how deleting packages is different between pkg and, say, apt, is much easier. The scope is known. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
In article alpine.bsf.2.11.1407251459370.72...@wonkity.com you write: Writing an article is hard. Writing a small section on how deleting packages is different between pkg and, say, apt, is much easier. The scope is known. Indeed, it's pretty trivial. I think the sort of article Craig was looking for was more on the order of apt command pkg command apt-get update pkg update (*1) ... ... (*1) Explanation of differences between how apt behaves and how pkg behaves. The set of common apt operations is pretty well-known, and most of them have direct pkg(8) equivalents. -GAWollman ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Garrett Wollman woll...@hergotha.csail.mit.edu wrote: In article alpine.bsf.2.11.1407251459370.72...@wonkity.com you write: Writing an article is hard. Writing a small section on how deleting packages is different between pkg and, say, apt, is much easier. The scope is known. Indeed, it's pretty trivial. I think the sort of article Craig was looking for was more on the order of apt command pkg command apt-get update pkg update (*1) ... ... (*1) Explanation of differences between how apt behaves and how pkg behaves. The set of common apt operations is pretty well-known, and most of them have direct pkg(8) equivalents. Hi, Garrett is describing exactly what I am looking for. I'm not looking for a complicated article explaining the internal differences between apt and pkg. Very few people have the interest or patience to read that. Providing a simple table contrasting the basic apt/yum/rpm/pkg commands for installing/upgrading/deleting packages is mostly what is needed. We need to show people that installing packages on FreeBSD is not like the bad old pkg_add days which people have bad memories of. We need to show that pkg is as good as what people are used to on modern Linux distributions. I have less experience with OS X, but if we can show people that pkg is as good as (or better than) MacPorts or Homebrew for installing third-party packages, that would be great as well, but focusing on Linux first would be good. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, 25 Jul 2014, Craig Rodrigues wrote: On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Garrett Wollman woll...@hergotha.csail.mit.edu wrote: In article alpine.bsf.2.11.1407251459370.72...@wonkity.com you write: Writing an article is hard. Writing a small section on how deleting packages is different between pkg and, say, apt, is much easier. The scope is known. Indeed, it's pretty trivial. I think the sort of article Craig was looking for was more on the order of apt command pkg command apt-get update pkg update (*1) ... ... (*1) Explanation of differences between how apt behaves and how pkg behaves. The set of common apt operations is pretty well-known, and most of them have direct pkg(8) equivalents. Garrett is describing exactly what I am looking for. I'm not looking for a complicated article explaining the internal differences between apt and pkg. Very few people have the interest or patience to read that. Providing a simple table contrasting the basic apt/yum/rpm/pkg commands for installing/upgrading/deleting packages is mostly what is needed. This gave me a flashback to the last time somebody said Oh, I just want a simple little program. :) We need to show people that installing packages on FreeBSD is not like the bad old pkg_add days which people have bad memories of. We need to show that pkg is as good as what people are used to on modern Linux distributions. The wiki should be ideal for this. Start a table, fill in what you can, and others can fill in the other parts. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: [PATCHES] Extend service(8) and rc(8) was: Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:56:42PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: Hi! I like it! It's a useful command line API. Eventually people will realise there needs to be a more formal method for describing/controlling the underlying framework, but I leave that up to bapt to figure out and .. well, push people to do. :) Thanks! -a [CC trimmed] I added a -s flag to allow the usage of /etc/rc.conf.d/$script for use with puppet, etc. https://phabric.freebsd.org/D451 pgpCJKyU5Wu9p.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 7/18/2014 1:18 PM, Alfred Perlstein wrote: On 7/18/14, 6:28 AM, Allan Jude wrote: On 2014-07-17 16:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org We could make 'service apache22 enable' which can run: sysrc -f /etc/rc.conf apache22_enable=YES and 'service apache22 disable' that can use sysrc -x And then ports can individually extend the functionality if they require. I like this a lot. That said, if other distros are setting up apache in 2 steps and we require 3 then we require 50% MORE STEPs! Or they require 33% LESS steps than us. Just to put it into perspective. Should FreeBSD be 50% more difficult or time consuming to configure? -Alfred Yes. As someone who works on a large fleet of Ubuntu systems, the worst thing dpkg does is auto-start services and it even auto-restarts them on updates in some cases. * Starting a service is a security risk. Especially before it has been configured, either manually or with tools. This is potentially true even with sane defaults - for instance, the pkg may be installed from an image/media and need to be updated from an internet repo because the image has aged. * Mandatory (re)starting of a service may happen before all deps are upgraded/installed, requiring multiple pointless and time consuming restarts. * Likewise, starting a service before the manual or CM policy hits can cause all sorts of problems, difficulties, and again even security implications. The way of doing things for large infrastructure is using some type of config management or orchestration tool like Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, cfengine. This is even the case for small deployments for the types of users Craig was talking about in the initial post. Regards, Kevin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
[PATCHES] Extend service(8) and rc(8) was: Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:10:34PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
Hi!
On 18 July 2014 07:28, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
Having a way for sysrc and service to know what particular options and
services are exposed by a given package or installed thing would be
nice. Right now the namespace is very flat and it's not obvious in all
instances what needs to happen to make it useful and what the options
are.
Oh, hm, I'd like to know what options there are for controlling the
installed apache24 package, let's see...
I remember IRIX having that command to list services, stop them and
start them, configure them enabled and disabled. Solaris grew
something like that with Solaris 10 and after the initial learning
curve it was great. Hving something like that would be 100% awesome.
I've updated the patch and extended it a little:
https://phabric.freebsd.org/D451
It can now print the rc options for a service.
It needs however to have the options listed as comments between the
KEYWORDS section and the sourcing of /etc/rc.subr.
And I've made some changes to rc.subr itself:
https://phabric.freebsd.org/D452
So now you can use
# service sshd describe
Secure Shell Daemon
and
# service sshd extracommands
configtest keygen reload
Sorry for the mess in phabricator's SUMMARY. I will learn the markup
syntax later...
Lars
pgp7uIZ9L4onn.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [PATCHES] Extend service(8) and rc(8) was: Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Hi!
I like it! It's a useful command line API.
Eventually people will realise there needs to be a more formal method
for describing/controlling the underlying framework, but I leave that
up to bapt to figure out and .. well, push people to do. :)
Thanks!
-a
On 19 July 2014 09:08, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:10:34PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
Hi!
On 18 July 2014 07:28, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of
a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
Having a way for sysrc and service to know what particular options and
services are exposed by a given package or installed thing would be
nice. Right now the namespace is very flat and it's not obvious in all
instances what needs to happen to make it useful and what the options
are.
Oh, hm, I'd like to know what options there are for controlling the
installed apache24 package, let's see...
I remember IRIX having that command to list services, stop them and
start them, configure them enabled and disabled. Solaris grew
something like that with Solaris 10 and after the initial learning
curve it was great. Hving something like that would be 100% awesome.
I've updated the patch and extended it a little:
https://phabric.freebsd.org/D451
It can now print the rc options for a service.
It needs however to have the options listed as comments between the
KEYWORDS section and the sourcing of /etc/rc.subr.
And I've made some changes to rc.subr itself:
https://phabric.freebsd.org/D452
So now you can use
# service sshd describe
Secure Shell Daemon
and
# service sshd extracommands
configtest keygen reload
Sorry for the mess in phabricator's SUMMARY. I will learn the markup
syntax later...
Lars
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:00:03PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 12:57, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. That's cool. We can disagree on that. But the fact that you have to edit a file to enable things and hope you get the right start entry in /etc/rc.conf or /usr/local/etc/rc.conf, or wherever you put it is, is a pain. No, Sir! No need to edit anything: root@testjail: # pkg install apache24 Updating repository catalogue The following 5 packages will be installed: Installing pcre: 8.33 Installing gdbm: 1.10 Installing db42: 4.2.52_5 Installing apr: 1.4.8.1.5.3 Installing apache24: 2.4.6_1 The installation will require 47 MB more space 5 MB to be downloaded Proceed with installing packages [y/N]: y gdbm-1.10.txz 100% 83KB 83.2KB/s 83.2KB/s 00:00 db42-4.2.52_5.txz 100% 1457KB 1.4MB/s 1.4MB/s 00:00 apr-1.4.8.1.5.3.txz 100% 390KB 389.5KB/s 389.5KB/s 00:00 apache24-2.4.6_1.txz 100% 3649KB 3.6MB/s 3.6MB/s 00:00 Checking integrity... done [1/5] Installing pcre-8.33... done [2/5] Installing gdbm-1.10... done [3/5] Installing db42-4.2.52_5... done [4/5] Installing apr-1.4.8.1.5.3... done [5/5] Installing apache24-2.4.6_1...=== Creating users and/or groups. Using existing group 'www'. Using existing user 'www'. /usr/local/share/examples/apache24/httpd.conf - /usr/local/etc/apache24/httpd.conf done To run apache www server from startup, add apache24_enable=yes in your /etc/rc.conf. Extra options can be found in startup script. Your hostname must be resolvable using at least 1 mechanism in /etc/nsswitch.conf typically DNS or /etc/hosts or apache might have issues starting depending on the modules you are using. root@testjail: # sysrc apache24_enable=yes apache24_enable: - yes root@testjail: # service apache24 start Performing sanity check on apache24 configuration: AH00557: httpd: apr_sockaddr_info_get() failed for testjail AH00558: httpd: Could not reliably determine the server's fully qualified domain name, using 127.0.0.1. Set the 'ServerName' directive globally to suppress this message Syntax OK Starting apache24. AH00557: httpd: apr_sockaddr_info_get() failed for testjail AH00558: httpd: Could not reliably determine the server's fully qualified domain name, using 127.0.0.1. Set the 'ServerName' directive globally to suppress this message root@testjail: # That's 3 commands to enter. Admittedly 2 more than on some OS that blindly starts any service you install, but 2 steps more logical and even a newbie can do this. What could be done is that pkg looks for rc scripts in a package, extracts the enable line and prints a message how to enable the script / daemon permanently. Like: - To start the script apache24 once run service apache24 onestart. - To start the script apache24 at boot time run sysrc apache24_enable=yes - The script apache24 has the following optional settings for /etc/rc.conf: apache24_profiles (str): Set to by default. Define your profiles here. apache24limits_enable (bool):Set to NO by default. Set it to yes to run `limits $limits_args` just before apache starts. apache24_flags (str):Set to by default. Extra flags passed to start command. apache24limits_args (str): Default to -e -C daemon Arguments of pre-start limits run. apache24_http_accept_enable (bool): Set to NO by default. Set to yes to check for accf_http kernel module on start up and load if not loaded. apache24_fib (str): Set an altered default network view for apache pgpd7Che1W7iN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 02:10:25PM +0200, Lars Engels wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:00:03PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 12:57, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. That's cool. We can disagree on that. But the fact that you have to edit a file to enable things and hope you get the right start entry in /etc/rc.conf or /usr/local/etc/rc.conf, or wherever you put it is, is a pain. No, Sir! No need to edit anything: root@testjail: # pkg install apache24 Updating repository catalogue The following 5 packages will be installed: Installing pcre: 8.33 Installing gdbm: 1.10 Installing db42: 4.2.52_5 Installing apr: 1.4.8.1.5.3 Installing apache24: 2.4.6_1 The installation will require 47 MB more space 5 MB to be downloaded Proceed with installing packages [y/N]: y gdbm-1.10.txz 100% 83KB 83.2KB/s 83.2KB/s 00:00 db42-4.2.52_5.txz 100% 1457KB 1.4MB/s 1.4MB/s 00:00 apr-1.4.8.1.5.3.txz 100% 390KB 389.5KB/s 389.5KB/s 00:00 apache24-2.4.6_1.txz 100% 3649KB 3.6MB/s 3.6MB/s 00:00 Checking integrity... done [1/5] Installing pcre-8.33... done [2/5] Installing gdbm-1.10... done [3/5] Installing db42-4.2.52_5... done [4/5] Installing apr-1.4.8.1.5.3... done [5/5] Installing apache24-2.4.6_1...=== Creating users and/or groups. Using existing group 'www'. Using existing user 'www'. /usr/local/share/examples/apache24/httpd.conf - /usr/local/etc/apache24/httpd.conf done To run apache www server from startup, add apache24_enable=yes in your /etc/rc.conf. Extra options can be found in startup script. Your hostname must be resolvable using at least 1 mechanism in /etc/nsswitch.conf typically DNS or /etc/hosts or apache might have issues starting depending on the modules you are using. root@testjail: # sysrc apache24_enable=yes apache24_enable: - yes root@testjail: # service apache24 start Performing sanity check on apache24 configuration: AH00557: httpd: apr_sockaddr_info_get() failed for testjail AH00558: httpd: Could not reliably determine the server's fully qualified domain name, using 127.0.0.1. Set the 'ServerName' directive globally to suppress this message Syntax OK Starting apache24. AH00557: httpd: apr_sockaddr_info_get() failed for testjail AH00558: httpd: Could not reliably determine the server's fully qualified domain name, using 127.0.0.1. Set the 'ServerName' directive globally to suppress this message root@testjail: # That's 3 commands to enter. Admittedly 2 more than on some OS that blindly starts any service you install, but 2 steps more logical and even a newbie can do this. What could be done is that pkg looks for rc scripts in a package, extracts the enable line and prints a message how to enable the script / daemon permanently. Like: - To start the script apache24 once run service apache24 onestart. - To start the script apache24 at boot time run sysrc apache24_enable=yes - The script apache24 has the following optional settings for /etc/rc.conf: apache24_profiles (str): Set to by default. Define your profiles here. apache24limits_enable (bool):Set to NO by default. Set it to yes to run `limits $limits_args` just before apache starts. apache24_flags (str):Set to by default. Extra flags passed to start command. apache24limits_args (str): Default to -e -C daemon Arguments of pre-start limits run. apache24_http_accept_enable (bool): Set to NO by default. Set to yes to check for accf_http kernel module on start up and load if not loaded. apache24_fib (str): Set an altered default network view for apache Sorry for no reading the whole thread first. This was already suggested in another part of the thread. pgp5P8SX3W5nE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 2014-07-17 16:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org We could make 'service apache22 enable' which can run: sysrc -f /etc/rc.conf apache22_enable=YES and 'service apache22 disable' that can use sysrc -x And then ports can individually extend the functionality if they require. -- Allan Jude signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
pgpbRbppx85QX.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:07:39PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:57:52PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:54, Baptiste Daroussin b...@freebsd.org wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit
of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files
and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is
sort
of annoying.
Maybe service needs to be extended (seriously sysrc
${service}_enable=YES is
not user friendly) we have service -l that list the services, maybe a
service
${service} on that create /etc/rc.conf.d/${service} with
${service}_enable=YES
in it and service ${service} off to remove it
maybe service -l could also be extended to show the current status (maybe
with a
-v switch)
but for sure having the service off by default is a good idea :)
Yeah, maybe having it populate an entry of service_enable=NO for now .
then you need to extend rcng to support /usr/local/etc/rc.conf.d so the
packages
can install them without touching base :) and we will need to wait for all
supported FreeBSD version to have the said modification)
Here's a totally untested patch to do that. I was rather surprised that
this wasn't configurable already.
-- Brooks
Index: defaults/rc.conf
===
--- defaults/rc.conf(revision 268825)
+++ defaults/rc.conf(working copy)
@@ -56,6 +56,7 @@
local_startup=/usr/local/etc/rc.d # startup script dirs.
script_name_sep= # Change if your startup scripts' names contain spaces
rc_conf_files=/etc/rc.conf /etc/rc.conf.local
+rc_conf_dirs=/etc/rc.conf.d /usr/local/etc/rc.conf.d
# ZFS support
zfs_enable=NO# Set to YES to automatically mount ZFS file
systems
Index: rc.subr
===
--- rc.subr (revision 268825)
+++ rc.subr (working copy)
@@ -1289,10 +1289,12 @@
fi
_rc_conf_loaded=true
fi
- if [ -f /etc/rc.conf.d/$_name ]; then
- debug Sourcing /etc/rc.conf.d/${_name}
- . /etc/rc.conf.d/$_name
- fi
+ for _dir in ${rc_conf_dirs}; do
+ if [ -f $_dir/$_name ]; then
+ debug Sourcing ${_dir}/${_name}
+ . $dir/$_name
+ fi
+ done
# Set defaults if defined.
for _var in $rcvar; do
pgp8K8x5vb6GE.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi, I attend a lot of different Meetup groups in the San Francisco Bay Area / Silicon Valley. What I am seeing is the following usage pattern for new developers, especially for web apps and cloud applications. (1) On their desktop/laptop, they will generally be using a Mac running OS X. This is their desktop Unix environment. This seems to be true of almost 90% of the people that I meet. The 10% of people who run a PC laptop, will mostly be running Windows. Very few seem to run Linux on their laptops, but if they do, it will likely be Ubuntu Linux. (2) For their deployed application, generally they will deploy to a Linux environment on a server. These days, the server will very likely be in a cloud environment: Amazon, Rackspace, Heroku. For (1), encouraging people to move away from a Mac to FreeBSD for their desktop environment is a tough sell. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company, and they make beautiful hardware, and software with a fantastic end-user experience. The PC-BSD project is fighting the good fight in terms of making a usable FreeBSD desktop, but its a touch battle to fight. For (2), encouraging people to move away from Linux to FreeBSD on the server, may be something where we can get more wins. I think we can do this by having more HOWTO articles on the FreeBSD web page that explain the following: (1) We need a HOWTO article that explains for each command using apt or yum for installing packages, how can I do the same thing using pkg. Even if we have a web page with a table, contrasting the apt/yum commands, and pkg commands, that would be super useful. A lot of folks have moved away from FreeBSD, purely because they are sick of pkg_add. We need to explain to folks that we have something better, that is quite competitive to apt/yum, and it is easy to use. (2) We need a HOWTO article that explains how to set up a FreeBSD environment with some of the major cloud providers, i.e. Amazon, Rackspace, Microsoft Azure, etc. Do we have such articles today, or is anybody working on something like that? I haven't such specific articles. However I did create a project which lets people more easily install and 'try out' FreeBSD. It runs ontop of either FreeNAS, pfSense or NAS4Free. The idea is that because you can boot those distress off of a USB stick, (it's like a liveCD). However you can then install the full FreeBSD generic onto any suitably-formatted attached hard disk. (including PKGNG and ports tree). None of my documentation is aimed specifically at linux - FreeBSD. However I can say that it's utterly true (if you have Mac OS X). The desktop experience is definately nicer (much less niggly / annoying problems). And on Macs we have brew install… which is allright. But you can't use Macs as effectively for server stuff. It doesn't really feel right for that purpose. And homebrew is like ports or gentoo (compiles everything, no binary packages). For me, the FreeBSD is what I decide to for server (more than linux) *not just only* for PKGNG. We are glad that is here now. But also (very important). If FreeBSD jails. Which isn't as-good-as, but often superior to such linux equivalent (if any). In terms of both security, and efficiency. Here you can see my FreeBSD jails HowTo: http://dreamcat4.github.io/finch/jails-how-to/ Which is as simple as I could ever be able to make it. Sorry I don't have any other ideas in regards to how to address the overwhelming popularity of Linux over FreeBSD. It often isn't justified. However in some ways linux is like windows now. For example with overwhelming hardware support (that sometimes is not as good on FreeBSD). And Linux is more success on embedded because it can run on many different kinds of CPUs. Wheras FreeBSD isn't very much support for embedded CPU (unless they happen to be X86). I get the (maybe not justified) impression that even ARM isn't so well supported on FreeBSD. Some things you can't change with just only a better How-To. Even if FreeBSD is super-great / rocks so well now. I think if we had these two HOWTO articles today, and we could aggressively point people at them, this would be a huge win for expanding the number of people who try out FreeBSD for modern server applications. -- Craig ___ freebsd-po...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Baptiste Daroussin b...@freebsd.org
wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit
of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files
and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is
sort
of annoying.
Maybe service needs to be extended (seriously sysrc
${service}_enable=YES is
not user friendly) we have service -l that list the services, maybe a
service
This might be a pretty good idea. (barring technical obstacles).
${service} on that create /etc/rc.conf.d/${service} with
${service}_enable=YES
in it and service ${service} off to remove it
I think we should hope for an API / service interface that can try to avoid
(as much as it can) to require specifically rc.conf file and no other
possible way. Because FreeBSD may replace the current rc.d system in future
with something else better / next generation. For example the on-going
openlaunchd project. That question is more about when rather than if.
maybe service -l could also be extended to show the current status (maybe
with a
-v switch)
but for sure having the service off by default is a good idea :)
It wouldn't hurt very much to have some optional flag to the pkg install
command that allowed a user to do in 1 command. Then the global
configuration of services being installed off by default would remain as
always.
Yet allowing that little extra switch would achieve the stated goal. And
help towards FreeBSD being a slightly more polished OS that is more
user-friendly. Since, you know do the math. It is 1 fewer total commands to
type in. Such savings all adds up. If enough such minor improvement can
be made all across the board. Then it makes a difference.
regards,
Bapt
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Hi!
On 18 July 2014 07:28, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
Having a way for sysrc and service to know what particular options and
services are exposed by a given package or installed thing would be
nice. Right now the namespace is very flat and it's not obvious in all
instances what needs to happen to make it useful and what the options
are.
Oh, hm, I'd like to know what options there are for controlling the
installed apache24 package, let's see...
I remember IRIX having that command to list services, stop them and
start them, configure them enabled and disabled. Solaris grew
something like that with Solaris 10 and after the initial learning
curve it was great. Hving something like that would be 100% awesome.
-a
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 7/18/14, 6:28 AM, Allan Jude wrote: On 2014-07-17 16:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org We could make 'service apache22 enable' which can run: sysrc -f /etc/rc.conf apache22_enable=YES and 'service apache22 disable' that can use sysrc -x And then ports can individually extend the functionality if they require. I like this a lot. That said, if other distros are setting up apache in 2 steps and we require 3 then we require 50% MORE STEPs! Or they require 33% LESS steps than us. Just to put it into perspective. Should FreeBSD be 50% more difficult or time consuming to configure? -Alfred ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:10:34PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
Hi!
On 18 July 2014 07:28, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
Having a way for sysrc and service to know what particular options and
services are exposed by a given package or installed thing would be
nice. Right now the namespace is very flat and it's not obvious in all
instances what needs to happen to make it useful and what the options
are.
Oh, hm, I'd like to know what options there are for controlling the
installed apache24 package, let's see...
I remember IRIX having that command to list services, stop them and
start them, configure them enabled and disabled. Solaris grew
something like that with Solaris 10 and after the initial learning
curve it was great. Hving something like that would be 100% awesome.
you are asking for rcng2 with a declarative init config rather the a script
regards,
Bapt
pgph_JyaBpvds.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 18 July 2014 14:21, Baptiste Daroussin b...@freebsd.org wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:10:34PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
Hi!
On 18 July 2014 07:28, Lars Engels lars.eng...@0x20.net wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of
a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I hacked up a solution for service(8):
http://bsd-geek.de/FreeBSD/service.sh.enable-disable.patch
The patch adds the following directives to service(8):
enable: Grabs an rc script's rcvar value and runs sysrc foo_enable=YES
disable: The opposite of enable
rcdelete: Deletes an rc script's rcvar value from /etc/rc.conf using
sysrc -x foo_enable
The nice thing about is that you can use one of the new directives on
one line with the old ones, as long as the new are the first argument:
# service syslogd enable
# service apache24 disable stop
# service apache24 rcdelete stop
# service nginx enable start
So after installing a package, to start and enable a daemon permanently
all you have to run is
# service foo enable start
Lars
P.S.: Thansk to Devin for his hard work on sysrc!
Having a way for sysrc and service to know what particular options and
services are exposed by a given package or installed thing would be
nice. Right now the namespace is very flat and it's not obvious in all
instances what needs to happen to make it useful and what the options
are.
Oh, hm, I'd like to know what options there are for controlling the
installed apache24 package, let's see...
I remember IRIX having that command to list services, stop them and
start them, configure them enabled and disabled. Solaris grew
something like that with Solaris 10 and after the initial learning
curve it was great. Hving something like that would be 100% awesome.
you are asking for rcng2 with a declarative init config rather the a script
It can be a series of scripts. The problem is that the namespace for
options has nothing else attached, like Hi I'm an option that
starts/stops a service, Hi I'm an option that's for this package,
Hi I'm an option that's for this class of things. Right now there's
just a series of shell variables with educated guesses about what
package they're related to and what they do, rather than anything that
specifically says what they do.
-a
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Jul 17, 2014, at 13:00, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: On 17 July 2014 12:57, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. That's cool. We can disagree on that. But the fact that you have to edit a file to enable things and hope you get the right start entry in /etc/rc.conf or /usr/local/etc/rc.conf, or wherever you put it is, is a pain. In the context of the email thread, no one in their sane mind will configure Amazon/Heroku/etc. VMs manually. They will use ansible/puppet/chef/etc. to install packages and to start services after they are installed and configured. I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Most of the time you will need to configure your apache server before you can start it. -- Rui Paulo ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Hi, I attend a lot of different Meetup groups in the San Francisco Bay Area / Silicon Valley. What I am seeing is the following usage pattern for new developers, especially for web apps and cloud applications. (1) On their desktop/laptop, they will generally be using a Mac running OS X. This is their desktop Unix environment. This seems to be true of almost 90% of the people that I meet. The 10% of people who run a PC laptop, will mostly be running Windows. Very few seem to run Linux on their laptops, but if they do, it will likely be Ubuntu Linux. (2) For their deployed application, generally they will deploy to a Linux environment on a server. These days, the server will very likely be in a cloud environment: Amazon, Rackspace, Heroku. For (1), encouraging people to move away from a Mac to FreeBSD for their desktop environment is a tough sell. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company, and they make beautiful hardware, and software with a fantastic end-user experience. The PC-BSD project is fighting the good fight in terms of making a usable FreeBSD desktop, but its a touch battle to fight. For (2), encouraging people to move away from Linux to FreeBSD on the server, may be something where we can get more wins. I think we can do this by having more HOWTO articles on the FreeBSD web page that explain the following: (1) We need a HOWTO article that explains for each command using apt or yum for installing packages, how can I do the same thing using pkg. Even if we have a web page with a table, contrasting the apt/yum commands, and pkg commands, that would be super useful. A lot of folks have moved away from FreeBSD, purely because they are sick of pkg_add. We need to explain to folks that we have something better, that is quite competitive to apt/yum, and it is easy to use. (2) We need a HOWTO article that explains how to set up a FreeBSD environment with some of the major cloud providers, i.e. Amazon, Rackspace, Microsoft Azure, etc. Do we have such articles today, or is anybody working on something like that? I think if we had these two HOWTO articles today, and we could aggressively point people at them, this would be a huge win for expanding the number of people who try out FreeBSD for modern server applications. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; 5) .. and then we need examples of actually deploying useful scenarios, like so here's what you type to get django working right, here's how you get a default memcached that works well, here's how you bring up node.js, etc. 6) Then make VMs of the above so people can just clone and install them. -a On 17 July 2014 11:25, Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi, I attend a lot of different Meetup groups in the San Francisco Bay Area / Silicon Valley. What I am seeing is the following usage pattern for new developers, especially for web apps and cloud applications. (1) On their desktop/laptop, they will generally be using a Mac running OS X. This is their desktop Unix environment. This seems to be true of almost 90% of the people that I meet. The 10% of people who run a PC laptop, will mostly be running Windows. Very few seem to run Linux on their laptops, but if they do, it will likely be Ubuntu Linux. (2) For their deployed application, generally they will deploy to a Linux environment on a server. These days, the server will very likely be in a cloud environment: Amazon, Rackspace, Heroku. For (1), encouraging people to move away from a Mac to FreeBSD for their desktop environment is a tough sell. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company, and they make beautiful hardware, and software with a fantastic end-user experience. The PC-BSD project is fighting the good fight in terms of making a usable FreeBSD desktop, but its a touch battle to fight. For (2), encouraging people to move away from Linux to FreeBSD on the server, may be something where we can get more wins. I think we can do this by having more HOWTO articles on the FreeBSD web page that explain the following: (1) We need a HOWTO article that explains for each command using apt or yum for installing packages, how can I do the same thing using pkg. Even if we have a web page with a table, contrasting the apt/yum commands, and pkg commands, that would be super useful. A lot of folks have moved away from FreeBSD, purely because they are sick of pkg_add. We need to explain to folks that we have something better, that is quite competitive to apt/yum, and it is easy to use. (2) We need a HOWTO article that explains how to set up a FreeBSD environment with some of the major cloud providers, i.e. Amazon, Rackspace, Microsoft Azure, etc. Do we have such articles today, or is anybody working on something like that? I think if we had these two HOWTO articles today, and we could aggressively point people at them, this would be a huge win for expanding the number of people who try out FreeBSD for modern server applications. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. 5) .. and then we need examples of actually deploying useful scenarios, like so here's what you type to get django working right, here's how you get a default memcached that works well, here's how you bring up node.js, etc. Oh yes. I think that quite a few packages have default options that make them unsuitable for out-of-box usage, ie some lack the sane default dbi-stuff and so on. 6) Then make VMs of the above so people can just clone and install them. At least zfs-datasets ready to be run as jails would be really good too. /A -a On 17 July 2014 11:25, Craig Rodrigues rodr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi, I attend a lot of different Meetup groups in the San Francisco Bay Area / Silicon Valley. What I am seeing is the following usage pattern for new developers, especially for web apps and cloud applications. (1) On their desktop/laptop, they will generally be using a Mac running OS X. This is their desktop Unix environment. This seems to be true of almost 90% of the people that I meet. The 10% of people who run a PC laptop, will mostly be running Windows. Very few seem to run Linux on their laptops, but if they do, it will likely be Ubuntu Linux. (2) For their deployed application, generally they will deploy to a Linux environment on a server. These days, the server will very likely be in a cloud environment: Amazon, Rackspace, Heroku. For (1), encouraging people to move away from a Mac to FreeBSD for their desktop environment is a tough sell. Apple is a multi-billion dollar company, and they make beautiful hardware, and software with a fantastic end-user experience. The PC-BSD project is fighting the good fight in terms of making a usable FreeBSD desktop, but its a touch battle to fight. For (2), encouraging people to move away from Linux to FreeBSD on the server, may be something where we can get more wins. I think we can do this by having more HOWTO articles on the FreeBSD web page that explain the following: (1) We need a HOWTO article that explains for each command using apt or yum for installing packages, how can I do the same thing using pkg. Even if we have a web page with a table, contrasting the apt/yum commands, and pkg commands, that would be super useful. A lot of folks have moved away from FreeBSD, purely because they are sick of pkg_add. We need to explain to folks that we have something better, that is quite competitive to apt/yum, and it is easy to use. (2) We need a HOWTO article that explains how to set up a FreeBSD environment with some of the major cloud providers, i.e. Amazon, Rackspace, Microsoft Azure, etc. Do we have such articles today, or is anybody working on something like that? I think if we had these two HOWTO articles today, and we could aggressively point people at them, this would be a huge win for expanding the number of people who try out FreeBSD for modern server applications. -- Craig ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 17 July 2014 12:57, Andreas Nilsson andrn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. That's cool. We can disagree on that. But the fact that you have to edit a file to enable things and hope you get the right start entry in /etc/rc.conf or /usr/local/etc/rc.conf, or wherever you put it is, is a pain. -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Regards, Alberto Mijares ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
I wouldn't mind though if pkg via dialog or some such mechanism asked if
wanted it enabled. Or via pkg-message told me howto enable it.
/A
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 17 July 2014 13:15, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff? Yup, and if the default is going to be off, then you want the instructions to be type this in, not edit this file. There's odd things too, like oh look I installed xorg, but then I can't run it without enabling hald/dbus, then starting it.. oh wait, no mouse, so I have to reboot for them to come up right kind of crap. That's the kind of thing that turns people away. -a ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? # service appname onestart For the rest, read the manual and understand your OS. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:15, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff? Yup, and if the default is going to be off, then you want the instructions to be type this in, not edit this file. There's odd things too, like oh look I installed xorg, but then I can't run it without enabling hald/dbus, then starting it.. oh wait, no mouse, so I have to reboot for them to come up right kind of crap. That's the kind of thing that turns people away. But this is more of a desktop/laptop setup, right? If services had an option ( the ones provided via ports anyway) for autostart, and package sets for different use cases was provided, like server and desktop say, there could for desktop be the default to have the option set for autostart and for server the option would be to not autostart. /A ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
Maybe service needs to be extended (seriously sysrc ${service}_enable=YES is
not user friendly) we have service -l that list the services, maybe a service
${service} on that create /etc/rc.conf.d/${service} with ${service}_enable=YES
in it and service ${service} off to remove it
maybe service -l could also be extended to show the current status (maybe with a
-v switch)
but for sure having the service off by default is a good idea :)
regards,
Bapt
pgpPDGYS8Mmyi.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:21:32PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:15, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff? Yup, and if the default is going to be off, then you want the instructions to be type this in, not edit this file. There's odd things too, like oh look I installed xorg, but then I can't run it without enabling hald/dbus, then starting it.. oh wait, no mouse, so I have to reboot for them to come up right kind of crap. yes that is why xorg needs to have devd instead of hal support by default :) regards, Bapt pgpyIxofSUsXQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On 17 July 2014 13:54, Baptiste Daroussin b...@freebsd.org wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
Maybe service needs to be extended (seriously sysrc ${service}_enable=YES is
not user friendly) we have service -l that list the services, maybe a service
${service} on that create /etc/rc.conf.d/${service} with
${service}_enable=YES
in it and service ${service} off to remove it
maybe service -l could also be extended to show the current status (maybe
with a
-v switch)
but for sure having the service off by default is a good idea :)
Yeah, maybe having it populate an entry of service_enable=NO for now .
It's even more unclear-ish - it's not obvious which options control
services and which ones are configuration things. We don't call it
service_xxx_enable, right?
-a
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, 2014-07-17 at 13:21 -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:15, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote: On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and start the service by himself. Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a given package service? Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff? Yup, and if the default is going to be off, then you want the instructions to be type this in, not edit this file. There's odd things too, like oh look I installed xorg, but then I can't run it without enabling hald/dbus, then starting it.. oh wait, no mouse, so I have to reboot for them to come up right kind of crap. That's the kind of thing that turns people away. I see your point, and agree that there should be clear instructions after installing a port/package. Most ports I install already do a good job at this. But I would not like anything to autostart just because I install it. Prefer to enable rather than disable something, or worse, having it autostart without knowing. That's the kind of thing that turned me to FreeBSD :-) -a ___ freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-doc To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-doc-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 01:57:52PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:54, Baptiste Daroussin b...@freebsd.org wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:21:17PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Navdeep Parhar npar...@gmail.com wrote:
On 07/17/14 13:12, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On 17 July 2014 13:03, Alberto Mijares amijar...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org
wrote:
Hi!
3) The binary packages need to work out of the box
4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it
can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a
problem;
No. Please NEVER do that! The user must be able to edit the files and
start the service by himself.
Cool, so what's the single line command needed to type in to start a
given package service?
Aren't sysrc(8) and service(8) for this kind of stuff?
They sure are.
Well, pkg install $service ; sysrc ${service}_enable=YES would do.
Although some services have different names than the packge, which is sort
of annoying.
Maybe service needs to be extended (seriously sysrc ${service}_enable=YES
is
not user friendly) we have service -l that list the services, maybe a
service
${service} on that create /etc/rc.conf.d/${service} with
${service}_enable=YES
in it and service ${service} off to remove it
maybe service -l could also be extended to show the current status (maybe
with a
-v switch)
but for sure having the service off by default is a good idea :)
Yeah, maybe having it populate an entry of service_enable=NO for now .
then you need to extend rcng to support /usr/local/etc/rc.conf.d so the packages
can install them without touching base :) and we will need to wait for all
supported FreeBSD version to have the said modification)
It's even more unclear-ish - it's not obvious which options control
services and which ones are configuration things. We don't call it
service_xxx_enable, right?
imho this is obvious xxx_enable == control service.
regards,
Bapt
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Re: HOWTO articles for migrating from Linux to FreeBSD, especially for pkg?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 09:57:44PM +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote: On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Adrian Chadd adr...@freebsd.org wrote: Hi! 3) The binary packages need to work out of the box 4) .. which means, when you do things like pkg install apache, it can't just be installed and not be enabled, because that's a bit of a problem; I disagree on this. For network services on linux ( apart from ssh ), I want that started very seldom. But I do want the package installed so that when I need it, it is there. Having it autostart as part of being installed is breaking KISS and in some way unix philosophy: I asked for something to be installed, not installed and autostarted. 5) .. and then we need examples of actually deploying useful scenarios, like so here's what you type to get django working right, here's how you get a default memcached that works well, here's how you bring up node.js, etc. Oh yes. I think that quite a few packages have default options that make them unsuitable for out-of-box usage, ie some lack the sane default dbi-stuff and so on. Reporting them is very much needed, we try to change this but without report it is hard, as much as I can I use vanilla packages now, and I discovered that they are now pretty much sane, a few example has been found and modified recently like nginx not supporting https by default, so do not hesitate to report any unsuitable options for out-of-box usage. regards, Bapt pgpa473PzXlOE.pgp Description: PGP signature
