Re: Thermal grease?
I realize this is old news but I recently saw a 1947 Cadillac with the exhaust manifolds exiting from the vee block over the intake manifolds and down over the rear of the engine. Thought I knew engines but I guess I have much more to learn!! On Mar 16, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Mar 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, John Callahan wrote: At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. Mis-statement on my part: The intake manifold fed both banks from inside the Vee but the exhaust had to pass between the cylinders to reach the outboard exhaust manifolds. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flathead_engine It's because the valves are in the block, rather than in the cylinder head as on most designs See this photo: http://tinyurl.com/crgz2v This meant that not only is precious intercylinder space taken up by exhaust porting rather than cooling channels, heat is transferred from the exhaust back to the block. __ _ I was going to say something about that too Bruce but restrained myself as we kinda get into pecking parties at times. But interesting to learn you know about old engines. In a recent issue of Old School Rodz they had an oddball flathead rod from Finland. A '26 T is powered by a 348 cube Cadillac tank engine from a WWW II Stuart. The exhaust exits between the intake runners at the top of the engine. good for the cylinders, but maybe not for keeping the intake charge cool. Also of interest was the matching water cooled hydramatic transmission that the guy left uncovered and painted to match a body color. ( Rat rods are like that ) He had of course custom headers and a carb setup. I had never seen this engine before this, A unique rod engine indeed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 15/3/09 21:13, Amanda Ward amanda.w...@comcast.net wrote: I have the aforementioned heat sink and CPU apart. What would be a good thermal compound to reassemble the beast? I do have a dab of Arctic Silver from a former project. Think this would be okee dokee? The chip doesn't seem to have any exposed circuitry... 'cept for the Bazillion pins on the underside. :-) Amanda Remembering my first computer had a 40 pin CPU! Yikes! If it's a sprung heatsink - held on by springs or through the mobo plungers - you need Arctic Silver 5 or Arctic Silver Ceramique - Ceramique is better than 5 by a degree or two. Your dab of Arctic Silver should be fine if it's not too old - doesn't keep too well If it's a heatsink which is retained in place by the contact only you need the two part epoxy ceramic adhesive - Arctic Alumina - mixes 50/50 then you have about five minutes get it spread well over the contact area and join the two surfaces - so if the phone rings while you're ruining your credit card trying to spread the stuff ignore it - or it will be back to chipping it off with a scalpel. Another option for glued sinks is thermal adhesive pads - though I've never used them Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, John Callahan wrote: At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. Mis-statement on my part: The intake manifold fed both banks from inside the Vee but the exhaust had to pass between the cylinders to reach the outboard exhaust manifolds. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flathead_engine It's because the valves are in the block, rather than in the cylinder head as on most designs See this photo: http://tinyurl.com/crgz2v This meant that not only is precious intercylinder space taken up by exhaust porting rather than cooling channels, heat is transferred from the exhaust back to the block. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Mar 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, John Callahan wrote: At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. Mis-statement on my part: The intake manifold fed both banks from inside the Vee but the exhaust had to pass between the cylinders to reach the outboard exhaust manifolds. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flathead_engine It's because the valves are in the block, rather than in the cylinder head as on most designs See this photo: http://tinyurl.com/crgz2v This meant that not only is precious intercylinder space taken up by exhaust porting rather than cooling channels, heat is transferred from the exhaust back to the block. ___ I was going to say something about that too Bruce but restrained myself as we kinda get into pecking parties at times. But interesting to learn you know about old engines. In a recent issue of Old School Rodz they had an oddball flathead rod from Finland. A '26 T is powered by a 348 cube Cadillac tank engine from a WWW II Stuart. The exhaust exits between the intake runners at the top of the engine. good for the cylinders, but maybe not for keeping the intake charge cool. Also of interest was the matching water cooled hydramatic transmission that the guy left uncovered and painted to match a body color. ( Rat rods are like that ) He had of course custom headers and a carb setup. I had never seen this engine before this, A unique rod engine indeed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. Mis-statement on my part: The intake manifold fed both banks from inside the Vee but the exhaust had to pass between the cylinders to reach the outboard exhaust manifolds. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flathead_engine It's because the valves are in the block, rather than in the cylinder head as on most designs See this photo: http://tinyurl.com/crgz2v This meant that not only is precious intercylinder space taken up by exhaust porting rather than cooling channels, heat is transferred from the exhaust back to the block. -- My reply: One last OT comment since this seems to be such a topic of interest, at least to some. Bruce is correct as usual as to the many advantages of the OHV small block Chevy engine over the old Flathead Ford. I attempted use the old ford engine as an example in thermal paste/grease discussion. Gosh, this was 45 years ago. At 16 years of age I had a very limited budget and got the Flathead for a song. Then I realized the Ford engine just would not be enough power for my teenage angst. So after a trip to the local recking yard I got the Chevy engine. Promptly bored it out and re-camed it, rebuilt it and added two BIG carbs (too big). I could not afford decent headers on the Chevy so I kept the stock ones. Also the neighborhood hot rodder was much more extreme putting 426 hemi in in a 30 something Dodge coupe. Then drag racing it on an unopened section of the recently constructed I-95. Talk about Ba*ls. If anyone wants more info contact me off list. I probably can fine I photo I can scan and provide any additional info if anyone (I doubt) is interested. Anyway dinner is waiting and most go now.--glen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Hi Peter... On Mar 14, 2009, at 2:42 PM, PeterH wrote: With over-application of Arctic Silver, for example, to a G4, there are power decoupling lines on the surface of the chip which can be shorted-out by such oozing. The washer which Apple generally applies to its processors can limit the intrusion of the conductive paste to those lines. However, over-application will usually get underneath the washer and be resistant to attempts to remove it. If you over-apply Arctic Silver, you are asking for trouble. If you over-apply silicone thermal grease, there is no issue except for the mess. Pine-Sol®, applied full-strength, can dissolve most such greases. And, as Pine-Sol is water-soluble, the excess grease, then in suspension, will simply, and completely wash-off. I have a CPU (Intel type) with a large heat sink that is firmly stuck to the processor. Any thought on getting the two separated. They should come apart somehow... the CPU is a ZIF and you can't get it back into the socket because of the overhang of the heat sink. Amanda --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 15/3/09 09:21, Amanda Ward amanda.w...@comcast.net wrote: I have a CPU (Intel type) with a large heat sink that is firmly stuck to the processor. Any thought on getting the two separated. They should come apart somehow... the CPU is a ZIF and you can't get it back into the socket because of the overhang of the heat sink. Amanda I've removed quite a few glued heatsinks. Firstly I put it in the freezer for an hour or so then I work carefully around the edges of the seal with a thin blade or scalpel (oops another finger gone) until it pops off. If it refuses to budge I put it back in the freezer for another hour and try again - and so onalways works for me... Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 10:44 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote: CPUs and heat sinks never move, they simply need a thermally conductive join. And yeah, that '34 would be worth a whole boatload of money today...:-) -- Bruce Johnson U of Az College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions don't have opinions, merely customs At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. John Callahan jcalla...@stny.rr.com If there are no dogs in Heaven, when I die I want to go where they went.¨ --Will Rogers extreme positive = (ybya2) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Hey John... On Mar 15, 2009, at 9:17 AM, John Callahan wrote: At last, a voice of reason and acuity in this exercise in tedium. Also I take issue with this statement the exhaust manifold comes off the sides of the engine, not down the middle... Never saw an engine (V8) with the exhaust down the middle. John Callahan Never saw a Chevrolet engine like that. Ford had an aluminum block, 255 four cam racing engine with the exhaust ports facing the middle of the engine. 'Tis a rare bird and not very many ever saw street use. I saw one at a car show in Chicago many years ago. Darned if I figure a way to work G-Processors or thermal grease into this observation... sorry nannys! ;-) Amanda --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
PETE!!! On Mar 15, 2009, at 3:08 AM, pdimage wrote: On 15/3/09 09:21, Amanda Ward amanda.w...@comcast.net wrote: I have a CPU (Intel type) with a large heat sink that is firmly stuck to the processor. Any thought on getting the two separated. They should come apart somehow... the CPU is a ZIF and you can't get it back into the socket because of the overhang of the heat sink. Amanda I've removed quite a few glued heatsinks. Firstly I put it in the freezer for an hour or so then I work carefully around the edges of the seal with a thin blade or scalpel (oops another finger gone) until it pops off. If it refuses to budge I put it back in the freezer for another hour and try again - and so onalways works for me... Pete Yer awesome! A few hours in the fridge (got busy with housework don'tcha know) and they popped apart with a few pokes of the razor knife. I wouldn't make such a fuss... it's a wintel box, but it is a P4-2.4 GHz and not too much of a slouch. ;-) Many thanks, Amanda --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Back on topic... I promise!!! On Mar 15, 2009, at 3:08 AM, pdimage wrote: On 15/3/09 09:21, Amanda Ward amanda.w...@comcast.net wrote: I have a CPU (Intel type) with a large heat sink that is firmly stuck to the processor. Any thought on getting the two separated. They should come apart somehow... the CPU is a ZIF and you can't get it back into the socket because of the overhang of the heat sink. Amanda I've removed quite a few glued heatsinks. Firstly I put it in the freezer for an hour or so then I work carefully around the edges of the seal with a thin blade or scalpel (oops another finger gone) until it pops off. If it refuses to budge I put it back in the freezer for another hour and try again - and so onalways works for me... I have the aforementioned heat sink and CPU apart. What would be a good thermal compound to reassemble the beast? I do have a dab of Arctic Silver from a former project. Think this would be okee dokee? The chip doesn't seem to have any exposed circuitry... 'cept for the Bazillion pins on the underside. :-) Amanda Remembering my first computer had a 40 pin CPU! Yikes! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 14/3/09 02:32, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. Seems strange - the laws of physics would suggest that a coarse finish - rather than a polished surface - would provide a much greater surface area for a face to face contact - with the compound filling the pits in the coarse finish... Pete ~--~--~--- With a coarse finish the surfaces are held apart by the metal to metal contact at random spots and the interstices are filed with compound. The compound has a finite, even if small, Thermal resistance. The length of the path through the compound is defined by the roughness of the surfaces. The smoother the surface the smaller the interstices left by the metal to metal contact points. Thus the layer of Compound necessary to fill the interstices is thinner. It could be argued and possibly answered by experiment that there could be a surface condition in the range between a very rough finish and a finish that imposes a Casimir force that would give the minimum thermal resistance at a reasonable cost of Time, Money and Resources. I would imagine that the Engineers at the Heat sink, Thermal Paste, Processor and Computer Manufacturers have thoroughly investigated the situation. If they have followed good engineering practices they have experimented and found a workable solution within the Triple Constraint (Money, Resources, Time). The Over Clockers are the modern equivalent of the old Shade Tree Mechanics squeezing the last possible Horsepower/Torque out of a Flat Head Ford engine; as they work within their version of the Triple Constraint. If it works for them, Hurrah, ErnieG --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 2:38 AM, Ernest L. Gunerius wrote: It could be argued and possibly answered by experiment that there could be a surface condition in the range between a very rough finish and a finish that imposes a Casimir force that would give the minimum thermal resistance at a reasonable cost of Time, Money and Resources. I would imagine that the Engineers at the Heat sink, Thermal Paste, Processor and Computer Manufacturers have thoroughly investigated the situation. If they have followed good engineering practices they have experimented and found a workable solution within the Triple Constraint (Money, Resources, Time). For the LGA 775 products from Intel, which present a very large surface area to the cooler, the most popular method of extreme cooling is lapping the processor and the cooler to flatness, followed by application of the best available heat transfer compound. The cooling surface of the processor is injection cast, and is not necessarily maximally flat, but it is certainly flat enough to transfer the rated heat to the supplied cooler under normal conditions, and improvements in the interface, and in the external cooling components can help significantly in the extreme cases. Liquid cooling is popular, and packaged solutions abound. Some motherboard manufactures. knowing that their customers will be liquid cooling the processors, offer motherboards with liquid cooling of the voltage regulator modules, the Northbridge, and even the Southbridge. Liquid-cooled RAM modules is less common, but are offered, too. For the BGA products from IBM and Freescale which are found on G4s, for example, a dramatically smaller surface is presented to the cooler, and the challenges are therefore greater. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 8:25 AM, PeterH wrote: For the LGA 775 products from Intel, which present a very large surface area to the cooler, the most popular method of extreme cooling is lapping the processor and the cooler to flatness, followed by application of the best available heat transfer compound. This process of Lapping is used on musical instruments as well to fit a trumpet or other piston/valve into its own personal cylinder ... uses the surfaces that will be touching in the end, or living together, and a lapping compound (sometimes even toothpaste...), to bring the 2 surfaces shapes closer together ... then uses a valve oil to seal and lubricate the result. These valves require air tight fit (seal) and a friction free movement (lubricated) for rapid repositioning during making music. Just some comments on Lapping two surfaces ... which I have only seen done ... I think I'm going to leave my QS Dual 1GHz alone, unless it starts having kps I cannot explain otherwise ... was considering preventive maintenance idea of replacing the thermal connection being discussed herein ... Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 4:43 AM, pdimage pdim...@btinternet.com wrote: On 14/3/09 02:32, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. Seems strange - the laws of physics would suggest that a coarse finish - rather than a polished surface - would provide a much greater surface area for a face to face contact - with the compound filling the pits in the coarse finish... I agree about surface area. Like cooling fins on a motor. However the idea here is conduction. And the closer the fit the less resistance there will be to conduction. ( I think ) For sure the finer the tolerance the thinner the layer of paste can be.And fewer minuscule air pockets which would transfer heat by radiation. I do not know if the coefficient of transfer for the paste is less than that for an air pocket. But would presume the paste is more efficient for transfer than an air pocket. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Ernest L. Gunerius wrote: On 14/3/09 02:32, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. Seems strange - the laws of physics would suggest that a coarse finish - rather than a polished surface - would provide a much greater surface area for a face to face contact - with the compound filling the pits in the coarse finish... Pete ~--~--~--- With a coarse finish the surfaces are held apart by the metal to metal contact at random spots and the interstices are filed with compound. The compound has a finite, even if small, Thermal resistance. The length of the path through the compound is defined by the roughness of the surfaces. The smoother the surface the smaller the interstices left by the metal to metal contact points. Thus the layer of Compound necessary to fill the interstices is thinner. It could be argued and possibly answered by experiment that there could be a surface condition in the range between a very rough finish and a finish that imposes a Casimir force that would give the minimum thermal resistance at a reasonable cost of Time, Money and Resources. I would imagine that the Engineers at the Heat sink, Thermal Paste, Processor and Computer Manufacturers have thoroughly investigated the situation. If they have followed good engineering practices they have experimented and found a workable solution within the Triple Constraint (Money, Resources, Time). The Over Clockers are the modern equivalent of the old Shade Tree Mechanics squeezing the last possible Horsepower/Torque out of a Flat Head Ford engine; as they work within their version of the Triple Constraint. If it works for them, Hurrah, ErnieG Heh... You mean the engine that despite having two waterpumps still tended to overheat? G JT --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 6:46 PM, PeterH wrote: Silicone thermal grease needs no special preparation. Arctic Silver must be applied according to instructions, as this stuff is conductive, and it can short-out a processor, if improperly applied. Is this true? I'd think there's a chance the the word conductive is being misinterpreted? It seems to me that thermal paste is likely to be thermodynamically conductive and not likely to be electrically conductive? Does it have silver in it? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 14/3/09 16:28, Kris Tilford ktilfo...@cox.net wrote: Is this true? I'd think there's a chance the the word conductive is being misinterpreted? It seems to me that thermal paste is likely to be thermodynamically conductive and not likely to be electrically conductive? Yes this is sort of true of Arctic Silver 5 and other metal containing thermal pastes and greases - though it's capacitive rather than conductive so it can build up an electrical charge and bridge contacts - their latest Ceramique paste is neither conductive nor capacitive - and runs cooler allegedly - you don't get much for your money with either though so you're hardly likely to use a plasterers trowel for an applicator. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 14/3/09 14:50, PAR prieme...@msn.com wrote: still don't have a good feel for an answer. For example, arctic silver (and comparable products) say they are thermal conductors and not electrical conductors, yet the fine print says it may end up shorting out circuits -- in plain English, that means it is an electrical conductor. The processor I have to plug into my gigabit machine is a standard Apple dual processor with a standard apple heatsink. Does anyone know where I could buy about two inches of Apple thermal conductive tape, which appears to be the original product used in Macs? Get the Ceramique paste - it's totally safe. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
PAR wrote: still don't have a good feel for an answer. For example, arctic silver (and comparable products) say they are thermal conductors and not electrical conductors, yet the fine print says it may end up shorting out circuits -- in plain English, that means it is an electrical conductor. The processor I have to plug into my gigabit machine is a standard Apple dual processor with a standard apple heatsink. Does anyone know where I could buy about two inches of Apple thermal conductive tape, which appears to be the original product used in Macs? Even if the thermal GREASE is non-conductive, you have two metal surfaces being pressed together. They will almost certainly come into direct contact and make an electrical circuit if possible. That is why it doesn't really matter if the thermal grease is electrically conductive or not, one has to assume the two metal items will make contact. That is unless you are also adding an object between them that is specifically designed to keep them out of electrical contact. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
insightinmind wrote: On Mar 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 6:46 PM, PeterH wrote: Silicone thermal grease needs no special preparation. Arctic Silver must be applied according to instructions, as this stuff is conductive, and it can short-out a processor, if improperly applied. Is this true? I'd think there's a chance the the word conductive is being misinterpreted? It seems to me that thermal paste is likely to be thermodynamically conductive and not likely to be electrically conductive? Does it have silver in it? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio Ya, I can tell you from experience that it IS electrically conductive. Got a blob where I shouldn't have on a motherboard once upon a time, luckily I got it cleaned off after it wouldn't run. But it was a windoze PC so it really doesn't matter, eh? Arctic Silver has metal particles in the gel - I'm not sure if it is aluminum or real silver. Trade secret, I guess! Stephen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 1:43 AM, pdimage wrote: On 14/3/09 02:32, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. Seems strange - the laws of physics would suggest that a coarse finish - rather than a polished surface - would provide a much greater surface area for a face to face contact - with the compound filling the pits in the coarse finish... Pete Many Overclockers are much like some of the loonier Stereo buffs, the ones who will spend $300 on a wooden volume knob because it lends a 'warmer tone' to the sound; the ones who will spend $1300 on speaker cables that cannot be distinguished from coathanger wire in blind listening tests. Facts and logic only incidentally coincide with their methodology. -- Bruce Johnson Wherever you go, there you are B. Banzai, PhD --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Ya, I can tell you from experience that it IS electrically conductive. Got a blob where I shouldn't have on a motherboard once upon a time, luckily I got it cleaned off after it wouldn't run. ... Arctic Silver has metal particles in the gel - I'm not sure if it is aluminum or real silver. Trade secret, I guess! AFAIK ... That's the danger of using one with metal in it, as other indicated earlier in the thread. From what I understand, use too much, and it could also seep out, onto the mobo ... maybe, especially, after things heat up ... added horror if a nearby fan moved it around ... you know, if the stuff hits the fan idea ... Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 3:16 PM, Clark Martin wrote: PAR wrote: still don't have a good feel for an answer. For example, arctic silver (and comparable products) say they are thermal conductors and not electrical conductors, yet the fine print says it may end up shorting out circuits -- in plain English, that means it is an electrical conductor. The processor I have to plug into my gigabit machine is a standard Apple dual processor with a standard apple heatsink. Does anyone know where I could buy about two inches of Apple thermal conductive tape, which appears to be the original product used in Macs? Even if the thermal GREASE is non-conductive, you have two metal surfaces being pressed together. They will almost certainly come into direct contact and make an electrical circuit if possible. That is why it doesn't really matter if the thermal grease is electrically conductive or not, one has to assume the two metal items will make contact. That is unless you are also adding an object between them that is specifically designed to keep them out of electrical contact. The 'Electrically conductive' being a problem is NOT between the processor heat sink, it's the problem caused by 'excess conductive paste' oozing onto circuit traces adjacent to the processor, and shorting various signals and/or power traces. I.E. Sloppy application Chuck D. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 14, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Charles Davis wrote: The 'Electrically conductive' being a problem is NOT between the processor heat sink, it's the problem caused by 'excess conductive paste' oozing onto circuit traces adjacent to the processor, and shorting various signals and/or power traces. I.E. Sloppy application With over-application of Arctic Silver, for example, to a G4, there are power decoupling lines on the surface of the chip which can be shorted-out by such oozing. The washer which Apple generally applies to its processors can limit the intrusion of the conductive paste to those lines. However, over-application will usually get underneath the washer and be resistant to attempts to remove it. If you over-apply Arctic Silver, you are asking for trouble. If you over-apply silicone thermal grease, there is no issue except for the mess. Pine-Sol®, applied full-strength, can dissolve most such greases. And, as Pine-Sol is water-soluble, the excess grease, then in suspension, will simply, and completely wash-off. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
PeterH wrote: On Mar 14, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Charles Davis wrote: The 'Electrically conductive' being a problem is NOT between the processor heat sink, it's the problem caused by 'excess conductive paste' oozing onto circuit traces adjacent to the processor, and shorting various signals and/or power traces. I.E. Sloppy application Whatever stuff you are applying, you don't want any excess amount falling anywhere. That is why you apply a very tiny amount and let the pressure moosh it into place. With over-application of Arctic Silver, for example, to a G4, there are power decoupling lines on the surface of the chip which can be shorted-out by such oozing. The washer which Apple generally applies to its processors can limit the intrusion of the conductive paste to those lines. However, over-application will usually get underneath the washer and be resistant to attempts to remove it. If you over-apply Arctic Silver, you are asking for trouble. If you over-apply silicone thermal grease, there is no issue except for the mess. Pine-Sol®, applied full-strength, can dissolve most such greases. And, as Pine-Sol is water-soluble, the excess grease, then in suspension, will simply, and completely wash-off. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Mar 14, 2009, at 1:43 AM, pdimage wrote: On 14/3/09 02:32, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. Seems strange - the laws of physics would suggest that a coarse finish - rather than a polished surface - would provide a much greater surface area for a face to face contact - with the compound filling the pits in the coarse finish... Pete Many Overclockers are much like some of the loonier Stereo buffs, the ones who will spend $300 on a wooden volume knob because it lends a 'warmer tone' to the sound; the ones who will spend $1300 on speaker cables that cannot be distinguished from coathanger wire in blind listening tests. Facts and logic only incidentally coincide with their methodology. -- Well I still envy anyone who will take a chance with a $ 1400.00 processor! It takes either foolishness or a firm confidence with what you are doing. Maybe both. Like high stakes poker with lousier odds. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
The Over Clockers are the modern equivalent of the old Shade Tree Mechanics squeezing the last possible Horsepower/Torque out of a Flat Head Ford engine; as they work within their version of the Triple Constraint. If it works for them, Hurrah, ErnieG Heh... You mean the engine that despite having two waterpumps still tended to overheat? I'm always amazed at the mechanical/electrical comparisons. So here are some random thoughts. Bear with me it gets bak on topic. If you bore out an old Ford Flathead cylinders enough to make it a larger engine the cast iron cylinder walls can get too thin to conduct the necessary heat from the internal gas combustion to the water based coolant and the engine will fail. Realizing this in my high school days in the 60's; I went to small block 1955 Chevy engine and bored it out to a reasonable size (265 to 283 CI) for my 1934 Ford Coupe hot rod and got more horsepower than the old flathead I orginaly wanted to use. Wish I had that rod today -- it would be worth a lot! Back on topic, the same heat transfer principle applies to computer processors. Air is not a good medium for heat transfer. Water is better and metal to metal is the better yet. So, the smoother the contact between the heat sink and the processor (no air) the better the heat transfer. Heat sinks are radiant; cool by air. A water cooling system will transfer heat more efficiently. Lapping is a good way to get better a seat between metal objects. Be it a computer heat sink/processor, auto cylinder/piston or musical instrument valves. Thermal paste/grease or whatever you call it is just an attempt to eliminate the imperfections in the heat sink/processor contact that allow air to impede the heat transfer. as Clarke said For conductive heat transfer as in this case you ideally want perfectly flat surfaces. They wouldn't need any heat transfer compound between them as there would be no gap. But ideal and perfect are on back order so you fill the thin gap with heat transfer compound which displaces the air. Heat transfer compounds have relatively poor thermal conductivity compared to the metals they are used with. But they have much better thermal conductivity than air which they replace in the gap. This is why you want just a very thin layer. I'm not, nor ever have been a practicing engineer but do have a BS in engineering and my undergraduate program was very strong on both mechanical and electrical disciplines. I really liked thermodynamics. OK, I'm sure some MSE.s and PHD's will find some fault in this post and will humbly accept any appropriate corrections --glen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM, glen glenst...@yahoo.com wrote: For conductive heat transfer as in this case you ideally want perfectly flat surfaces. They wouldn't need any heat transfer compound between them as there would be no gap. But ideal and perfect are on back order so you fill the thin gap with heat transfer compound which displaces the air. Heat transfer compounds have relatively poor thermal conductivity compared to the metals they are used with. But they have much better thermal conductivity than air which they replace in the gap. This is why you want just a very thin layer. I'm not, nor ever have been a practicing engineer but do have a BS in engineering and my undergraduate program was very strong on both mechanical and electrical disciplines. I really liked thermodynamics. OK, I'm sure some MSE.s and PHD's will find some fault in this post and will humbly accept any appropriate corrections --glen Most MSEs and PHds have never built a Rod. wadda they know? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
So, let me get this straight (forgive my ignorance. I'm used to the plug-n-play of the beige processor upgrades that had their own built- in heatsinks). If I decide to upgrade the processor in my Quicksilver to a later quicksilver processor (for example, putting a used gual 1GHz in a QS933 motherboard), do I have to apply anything to the two processors, since the heat sink and processor boards would be two separated pieces (i.e. you have to take the heat sink off just to get the processor out of the machine)? I wouldn't want to take a chance on frying a precious upgrade! Andy On Mar 13, 2:11 am, Clark Martin cm...@sonic.net wrote: PeterH wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 7:14 PM, technophobic_...@comcast.net wrote: Don't put ANY grease near your processor! A grease is simply solids within an oily carrier. Electronics grade silicone thermally conductive grease, Thermalcote, or equal, is fine. Arctic Silver claims to be non-conductive, but it also comes with a detailed procedure for application to avoid foul-ups due to over- application, which procedures are not necessary with a silicone product. Arctic Silver is also a grease, using the conventional definition of the term. If the Heatsink / Processor combo is supposed to use grease then conductivity isn't an issue, you assume the CPU and heatsink will connect electrically. If you don't want them to connect electrically you use an insulating spacer like a mica insulator. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
mythmaker18 wrote: So, let me get this straight (forgive my ignorance. I'm used to the plug-n-play of the beige processor upgrades that had their own built- in heatsinks). If I decide to upgrade the processor in my Quicksilver to a later quicksilver processor (for example, putting a used gual 1GHz in a QS933 motherboard), do I have to apply anything to the two processors, since the heat sink and processor boards would be two separated pieces (i.e. you have to take the heat sink off just to get the processor out of the machine)? I wouldn't want to take a chance on frying a precious upgrade! Andy If and whenever the heatsink comes away from the processor itself; you add thermal grease before installing both together for use. On Mar 13, 2:11 am, Clark Martin cm...@sonic.net wrote: PeterH wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 7:14 PM, technophobic_...@comcast.net wrote: Don't put ANY grease near your processor! A grease is simply solids within an oily carrier. Electronics grade silicone thermally conductive grease, Thermalcote, or equal, is fine. Arctic Silver claims to be non-conductive, but it also comes with a detailed procedure for application to avoid foul-ups due to over- application, which procedures are not necessary with a silicone product. Arctic Silver is also a grease, using the conventional definition of the term. If the Heatsink / Processor combo is supposed to use grease then conductivity isn't an issue, you assume the CPU and heatsink will connect electrically. If you don't want them to connect electrically you use an insulating spacer like a mica insulator. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
I'm not a big fan of the sticky black goop Apple uses for thermal compound. When I swap processors, which is pretty frequent, I always replace it with a better compound. First I remove the black stuff with a plastic (not metal- don't scratch the heatsink or CPU) scraper, scrub it off with acetone (or nail polish remover) and then wipe it with rubbing alcohol. I then apply Arctic Silver Ceramique; it's non- conductive and seems to do a very good job transferring the heat from the CPU t the heatsink. I haven't fried any CPUs yet. On Mar 13, 9:36 am, mythmaker18 mythmake...@yahoo.com wrote: So, let me get this straight (forgive my ignorance. I'm used to the plug-n-play of the beige processor upgrades that had their own built- in heatsinks). If I decide to upgrade the processor in my Quicksilver to a later quicksilver processor (for example, putting a used gual 1GHz in a QS933 motherboard), do I have to apply anything to the two processors, since the heat sink and processor boards would be two separated pieces (i.e. you have to take the heat sink off just to get the processor out of the machine)? I wouldn't want to take a chance on frying a precious upgrade! Andy On Mar 13, 2:11 am, Clark Martin cm...@sonic.net wrote: PeterH wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 7:14 PM, technophobic_...@comcast.net wrote: Don't put ANY grease near your processor! A grease is simply solids within an oily carrier. Electronics grade silicone thermally conductive grease, Thermalcote, or equal, is fine. Arctic Silver claims to be non-conductive, but it also comes with a detailed procedure for application to avoid foul-ups due to over- application, which procedures are not necessary with a silicone product. Arctic Silver is also a grease, using the conventional definition of the term. If the Heatsink / Processor combo is supposed to use grease then conductivity isn't an issue, you assume the CPU and heatsink will connect electrically. If you don't want them to connect electrically you use an insulating spacer like a mica insulator. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 13, 2009, at 9:40 AM, nestamicky wrote: mythmaker18 wrote: So, let me get this straight (forgive my ignorance. I'm used to the plug-n-play of the beige processor upgrades that had their own built- in heatsinks). If I decide to upgrade the processor in my Quicksilver to a later quicksilver processor (for example, putting a used gual 1GHz in a QS933 motherboard), do I have to apply anything to the two processors, since the heat sink and processor boards would be two separated pieces (i.e. you have to take the heat sink off just to get the processor out of the machine)? I wouldn't want to take a chance on frying a precious upgrade! Andy If and whenever the heatsink comes away from the processor itself; you add thermal grease before installing both together for use. In a similar vein ... I have a Dual 1GHz QS 2002 ... seems to be working fine ... just concerned about age. Would it be advisable to go on and remove the heatsink(s), clean the surfaces, and re-apply thermal grease? Sort of preventive maintenance? Or if it ain't broke ... don't fix it apply? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 13, 2009, at 6:54 AM, insightinmind wrote: I have a Dual 1GHz QS 2002 ... seems to be working fine ... just concerned about age. Would it be advisable to go on and remove the heatsink(s), clean the surfaces, and re-apply thermal grease? Sort of preventive maintenance? In the specific cases of the Gig-E, DA, QS and similar, removing the processor involves removing the heatsink. In fact, the heatsink may be removed without removing the processor. Apple employed a special heat transfer tape on these models. The tape sticks to the underside of the heatsink, and the functional side of the tape comes into contact with the processor. The heat transfer material on the functional side of the tape is essentially single-use. Carefully cleaning both the tape and the processor, and then applying an appropriate heat transfer substance (grease/paste/whatever) is required if a replacement tape is not available. Those self-stick tapes are occasionally available. About a dollar or so apiece. Me, I just clean the surfaces appropriately and then apply silicone thermal grease. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
Isn't heat transfer the issue here??? On Mar 13, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Clark Martin wrote: PeterH wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 7:14 PM, technophobic_...@comcast.net wrote: Don't put ANY grease near your processor! A grease is simply solids within an oily carrier. Electronics grade silicone thermally conductive grease, Thermalcote, or equal, is fine. Arctic Silver claims to be non-conductive, but it also comes with a detailed procedure for application to avoid foul-ups due to over- application, which procedures are not necessary with a silicone product. Arctic Silver is also a grease, using the conventional definition of the term. If the Heatsink / Processor combo is supposed to use grease then conductivity isn't an issue, you assume the CPU and heatsink will connect electrically. If you don't want them to connect electrically you use an insulating spacer like a mica insulator. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway John Callahan jcalla...@stny.rr.com If there are no dogs in Heaven, when I die I want to go where they went.¨ --Will Rogers extreme positive = (ybya2) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
technophobic_...@comcast.net wrote: On 3/12/09, Clark Martin wrote: If the Heatsink / Processor combo is supposed to use grease then conductivity isn't an issue, you assume the CPU and heatsink will connect electrically. If you don't want them to connect electrically you use an insulating spacer like a mica insulator. You're NOT supposed to use grease. You're supposed to use thermally conductive compounds or adhesives. Engineers deliberately distinguish between grease (hydrocarbon/oil based lubricants) and thermal compounds (homogeneous polymeric organosilicon substances) so that the ignorant don't go to the local auto parts store, pick up a tube of grease, and apply it to their computers. An unmentioned someone is being bull-headed in this matter. :-) (Remember, ignorance isn't a sin. It merely means one hasn't been exposed to the issue.) See: http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm As discharging the processor's heat is the goal, thermal conductivity is critical. Thermal compounds and adhesives are intentionally designed to conduct heat and to be electrically non-conductive. Mica would satisfy the electrical requirement but grossly fail to sufficiently conduct heat. Mica is commonly used as an electrical insulator and thermal conductor in in electronics. It seems to fit both requirements well enough. No, it's not a great thermal conductor but most things that are electrical insulators aren't. That is why it is kept very thin. do a web search on thermal grease http://www.google.com/search?client=safarirls=en-usq=thermal+greaseie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8 Most or all refer to a substance for conducting heat in electronics. Whether or not grease is the proper term here, it IS one used extensively. -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On 13/3/09 13:54, insightinmind billycarm...@verizon.net wrote: In a similar vein ... I have a Dual 1GHz QS 2002 ... seems to be working fine ... just concerned about age. Would it be advisable to go on and remove the heatsink(s), clean the surfaces, and re-apply thermal grease? Sort of preventive maintenance? Or if it ain't broke ... don't fix it apply? I use quite a lot of this stuff - the 'grease' I use is Arctic Silver Ceramique and the glue is Arctic Silver Alumina Thermal Chipset Adhesive - the grease is for 'sprung' heatsinks - held with clips like a cpu or pins and plungers in the case of graphics cards (which is mostly what I use it for). The glue is for heatsinks/fans with no circuit board fastening and it sets very hard - so it's not easy to get the heatsink off if you make a pig's ear of the contact - but an hour in the freezer will make the job easier. It's maybe advisable with secondhand graphics cards which run at high speeds and temps - definitely advisable if you see artifacts of any kind or experience video problems. I do gpu and memory solder reflows on old graphics cards with problems and I remove the gpu and memory heatsinks as a first step so I refurbish the cooling when I replace them - it will often kill or cure problems which look terminal - I've just fixed two PC Radeon 9700 Pros and one 9800 Pro which all had terminal artifacts (I like to recycle - call me green) and now they're mac cards - one of the 9700's has vga out only and one has barely noticeable artifacts - the 9800 is perfect. Maybe not so advisable with motherboard processors unless they are running at too high temps and giving problems - a temperature monitor is a good utility to forewarn of heat problems - but I think there's quite a bit of latitude with the G4s - not so much with the G5s. I would say don't do it unless it's necessary - if you've not done it before there is the usual round of 'learners' mistakes to get through - and some of those are very very terminal. I have already paid my dues and terminated untold devices. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 9:49 AM, dc dbc...@verizon.net wrote: I'm not a big fan of the sticky black goop Apple uses for thermal compound. When I swap processors, which is pretty frequent, I always replace it with a better compound. First I remove the black stuff with a plastic (not metal- don't scratch the heatsink or CPU) scraper, scrub it off with acetone (or nail polish remover) and then wipe it with rubbing alcohol. I then apply Arctic Silver Ceramique; it's non- conductive and seems to do a very good job transferring the heat from the CPU t the heatsink. I haven't fried any CPUs yet. Overclockers who are set on defeating heat to preserve costly CPUs yet squeeze extreme clock counts out of them have been known to polish the CPU and heatsink with ever finer grades of wet or dry paper starting with 1000 grit. And even going to finer grits of polishing compound. Some may even lap : the surfaces together with a polishing compound. Then they apply the thermal paste after all of that. In theory the more closely the parts surfaces match and the thinner the paste needed to make up the difference the faster and therefore the more successful the heat transfer will be. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 12, 2009, at 3:48 PM, PAR wrote: I just received a 450 Mhz dual processor to replace the single 400 Mhz processor in my G4 gigabit machine. I assume I must get a tube of thermal grease to put a drop on top of each processor before i put the new processor unit and heatsink in my G4? Only if you're getting it sans heatsink. The daughter card should come as a unit with cpu's and heatsink attached, since, iirc, the heatsink for a dual system is different that that for a single cpu system. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:48 PM, PAR prieme...@msn.com wrote: I just received a 450 Mhz dual processor to replace the single 400 Mhz processor in my G4 gigabit machine. I assume I must get a tube of thermal grease to put a drop on top of each processor before i put the new processor unit and heatsink in my G4? __ A thin even coating on the area of contact is sufficient. Available at computer shops and Radio Shack. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
You might want to read some documentation on the CPU, there might be something in there about thermal grease. I know the processor upgrade that I got for my BW said not to use any thermal grease because it already had something on it. If you do decide to put on some thermal grease remember to use just a very very tiny bit because it spreads when you clamp the heat sink back on. Stephen On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:48 PM, PAR prieme...@msn.com wrote: I just received a 450 Mhz dual processor to replace the single 400 Mhz processor in my G4 gigabit machine. I assume I must get a tube of thermal grease to put a drop on top of each processor before i put the new processor unit and heatsink in my G4? __ A thin even coating on the area of contact is sufficient. Available at computer shops and Radio Shack. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Thermal grease?
On Mar 12, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Stephen Weber wrote: You might want to read some documentation on the CPU, there might be something in there about thermal grease. I know the processor upgrade that I got for my BW said not to use any thermal grease because it already had something on it. If you do decide to put on some thermal grease remember to use just a very very tiny bit because it spreads when you clamp the heat sink back on. Silicone thermal grease needs no special preparation. Arctic Silver must be applied according to instructions, as this stuff is conductive, and it can short-out a processor, if improperly applied. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
