RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
Hola Santiago! -Mensaje original- De: Santiago Gala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] P.S.: (This holds for any Apache Committer coming to Madrid. I feel quite isolated here). Hey, perhaps there are no Apache Committers in Madrid, but there are surely lots of Apache users! :) Un saludo, Alex.
Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Folks, *Context* To remind you, I am a committer on Avalon and Commons with intersts in anything that uses avalon-phoenix. Many months ago, I placed a long worked on project called Jesktop inside jakarta-avalon-cornerstone's CVS as a demo application for Avalon-Phoenix. I then did quite a bit more work on it. I think it may have been a bit of a mistake. Despite continued interest in Jesktop ( I get a private email once a week asking how do I download it), it is essentially stagnating there as I am sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time). *Proposal* I'm proposing moving it off jakarta CVS and onto sourceforge, where committers can be added at will without the faux-pas of access to Avalon's huge codebase. The reason I am asking here is that it is taking code away from Apache. It will still be Apache licensed and could well *come back one day* (when community is proven and assuming it is not still alien in principle). The BSD licensed API is already at sourceforge: http://jesktop.sourceforge.net/ The multiple non-Apache licensed ported applications are already at sourceforge: http://jesktopapps.sourceforge.net/ (pictures speak 1000 words) Regards, - Paul H -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Ted, Has there been a vote regarding this in Avalon? It is in progress and so far in favour of a move. I dont think it will be vetoed as I was the only one that ever committed changes. It won't be useful until I complete the mime-manager-registry (for double click associations etc), so few have tested it. Have all the prior authors of the packages been pinged? There were consulted on a move to Apache license and a move to Jakarta hosting. I have written 90% of the code and the other authors dropped away, probably not related to the move to jakarta. I am sure they do not actually need to be asked as they are not committers here. Others are interested now. Will the existing codebase continue under the Apache License? Yes. Without any change to wording. What is the status of the current sourceforge projects? Could this be joined into one project there under the Apache License? The API (project jesktop) is BSD licensed because I haveported lots of GPL applications to be Jesktop compatible and GPL is incompatible with Apache software license, but not BSD. Those apps are hosted under project jesktopapps. This proposal is about moving the source tree undchanged (apart from package rename) to souceforge as jesktopimpl. There is scope for others to take the API and make a Jesktop desktop that is not of the same codebase. It's my feeling that our core mission is promoting the Apache open source methodology and licensing terms. Where the codebase lives is secondary. Yup, we do concentrate on server side comps/tools/apps now. I think that is limiting and cite Batik as a cool Apache GUI app. I would love for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no community yet. I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it back. Regards, - Paul H -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Paul Hammant wrote: I'm proposing moving it off jakarta CVS and onto sourceforge, where committers can be added at will without the faux-pas of access to Avalon's huge codebase. The reason I am asking here is that it is taking code away from Apache. It will still be Apache licensed and could well *come back one day* (when community is proven and assuming it is not still alien in principle). There is no technical reason that the committers to cornerstone need to have commit or voting rights to avalon as a whole. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Paul Hammant wrote: I would love for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no community yet. I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it back. What rules do you want changed? Warning: that's a trick question. If you want to take initiative and move jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and work to get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful. The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number of hours in a day. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Sam, I would love for Jesktop (impl) to remain at Apache as a top-level project, but a) it is not in scope and b) suffers from the wel known catch-22 of having no community yet. I hope the rules change in teh future so I can bring it back. What rules do you want changed? 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF attentions. 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) ) Warning: that's a trick question. If you want to take initiative and move jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and work to get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful. The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number of hours in a day. Three assertions - a, b c. (a) true, (b) subject to project-status and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above. You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish? - Paul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
jkarta-site2
Hi, I'm about to release James 2.0a2, and I'd like it to appear in news so two questions .. 1/ please can I have karma for jakarta-site2, Or would posting a Patch be quicker? 2/ if I add it to news xdoc do I also have to add it to index under headlines, and.. if I do that do I knock off the earliest headline to keep the lists the same length. Thanks. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
Hello Morgan, +1 Saturday, February 02, 2002, 1:16:55 AM, you wrote: MD I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC. MD Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I MD cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments. I can say, however, MD that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to MD numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community. MD - Morgan Delagrange MD _ MD Do You Yahoo!? MD Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com MD -- MD To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MD For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Best regards, Olegmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: jkarta-site2
Danny Angus wrote: 2/ if I add it to news xdoc do I also have to add it to index under headlines, and.. if I do that do I knock off the earliest headline to keep the lists the same length. +1 Actually, I'm thinking five looks a little crowded. If you wanted to go with three, I think that would be fine too. But I don't think we want more than five. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Java Web Development with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Paul Hammant wrote: What rules do you want changed? 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF attentions. 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where I can find them? ;-) Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) ) Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Quoting from www.apache.org: The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and users. I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps. Warning: that's a trick question. If you want to take initiative and move jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and work to get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful. The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number of hours in a day. Three assertions - a, b c. (a) true, (b) subject to project-status and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above. Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form if only these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they would attract a community. Such proposals generally get politely turned away. You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish? Actually, no. At least not given the information you have provided before. Specifically, the comment about being sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time). But this has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above. I can't resist closing this with the following: In The Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers together saying, There's no place like home. Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him? Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something, that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our own path toward home. ;-) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
Sam, What rules do you want changed? 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF attentions. 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where I can find them? ;-) OK OK, I'm talking from position of ignorance. Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) ) Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Quoting from www.apache.org: The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and users. I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps. :-) Warning: that's a trick question. If you want to take initiative and move jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and work to get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful. The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number of hours in a day. Three assertions - a, b c. (a) true, (b) subject to project-status and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above. Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form if only these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they would attract a community. Such proposals generally get politely turned away. True, it is too much of a risk of course. You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish? Actually, no. At least not given the information you have provided before. Specifically, the comment about being sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time). But this has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above. Ahh, now. I work in fits and spurts like others. Enterprise Object broker (206Kb runtime) now has two example applications that are published internally to other beans and externally to other things including a test client. It does all this without RemoteException (all beans are local and remote). Shortly I'll complete a demo servlet that EOB will push to Hendrik Schreiber's Jo! webserver that is also in the Phoenix VM. AltRMI is a core work of the moment because EOB uses it. I'd back burner both and AvalonDB to have Jesktop as a top-level Jakarta project. This morning as a consequence of this thread to independant developers has contacted me to discuss the differences between Jesktop an their independantly developed efforts. There are some license (in the case of one) and architecture (the other) differences that I'm sure will be overcome, so that some commonality will be found. The last thing we want is a KDE / Gnome split at an early stage of a desktop/window manager/gui app server. I can't resist closing this with the following: In The Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers together saying, There's no place like home. Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him? Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something, that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our own path toward home. ;-) Paths, yellow brick or otherwise, can sometimes be odd choices :-) It is often not correct to direct another on which path to take, even when the journey has been completed by oneself. - Paul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
Hi Alex, You ask why I think it's important to distinguish between the characteristics of a remote call and a local one. One of the nicest things on this topic I found is a paper from Sun themselves - http://research.sun.com/technical-reports/1994/sml1_tr-94-29.pdf From the date, I would think that Sun were in the initial stages of thinking about how to do remote calls in java, and RMI was probably in the gestation stage (anyone knowing the dates of all that better, please correct me !). And I imagine that this paper, which is about the characteristics of distributed computing, and which makes a case for *not* trying to make remote calls transparent, was on the losing side of the argument. My suspicion is that it was marketing thinking that actually pushed the remote model to where it is today. It's a while since I read the paper, and I remember feeling it didn't go quite far enough: my own thoughts are that when you ask a remote machine to do something, you don't necessarily want to suspend your thread till it completes, and when the remote machine responds, it doesn't necessarily want to have completed all the work involved in your request, nor does it want to be restricted to responding just once, or with only a single value. And it might want to queue your request up if it's busy. And if it doesn't have the resources it needs to do what you asked, it might want to tell you about different situations in different ways, without wanting to throw an Exception. Sort of subtler than a local call. If you wanted that kind of subtlety locally, you'd at least be able to widen the interface with some shared memory/shared object communication or even cheap additional calls. Remotely, every communication is expensive. Having the ability for free-running intelligent applications to communicate by sending messages was always a simple and powerful technique in many of the inter-machine situations I've programmed (long before the WWW or CORBA or RMI was around), and RPC feels like a completely unjustified restriction. And I'd suspect the OMG as the hidden source of a lot of the twisted thinking that forced it on us ... a dream, that many bought into, that 'Objects' were the answer to everything, and a theory that the only thing you can do to an object is invoke it, and another theory that the object inside a program is the same as an object in another continent, and they should all look the same and etcetera etcetera. Well, everything's an object, isn't it ? Kiss my object ! - Tim - Original Message - From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 31 January 2002 12:49 Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful Hi Tim. I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs as much as possible. But there's one thing I don't understand. -Mensaje original- De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation techniques would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, instead of requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But personally, I think RPC is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program as though a remote call had the same characteristics as a local one. Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was flawed. Un saludo, Alex. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
Hi Tim! This is good news indeed: someone took the time to actually read a message and respond to it, instead of sending 100's of nonsensical one-liners ;) Answer inline. -Mensaje original- De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hi Alex, You ask why I think it's important to distinguish between the characteristics of a remote call and a local one. One of the nicest things on this topic I found is a paper from Sun themselves - http://research.sun.com/technical-reports/1994/sml1_tr-94-29.pdf Having just browsed over the document, it seems a bit (quite logically) out of date. Nowadays, if you are running a web application, your users are used to big delays and latencies, and so putting up with a few more milliseconds will not bother them. From the date, I would think that Sun were in the initial stages of thinking about how to do remote calls in java, and RMI was probably in the gestation stage (anyone knowing the dates of all that better, please correct me !). And I imagine that this paper, which is about the characteristics of distributed computing, and which makes a case for *not* trying to make remote calls transparent, was on the losing side of the argument. My suspicion is that it was marketing thinking that actually pushed the remote model to where it is today. As a matter of fact, NeXT had been doing remote proxies for a few years: NeXT Computer, Inc. NeXTSTEP Object-Oriented Programming and the Objective C Language, Release 3. Reading, Mass: Addison-Wesley, 1993. The remote model was moving at full speed at the time. It's a while since I read the paper, and I remember feeling it didn't go quite far enough: my own thoughts are that when you ask a remote machine to do something, you don't necessarily want to suspend your thread till it completes, and when the remote machine responds, it doesn't necessarily want to have completed all the work involved in your request, nor does it want to be restricted to responding just once, or with only a single value. And it might want to queue your request up if it's busy. And if it doesn't have the resources it needs to do what you asked, it might want to tell you about different situations in different ways, without wanting to throw an Exception. Sort of subtler than a local call. Most of this can be done if you use asynchronous messaging wisely, and do synchronous calls only when necessary -- appropriate. You can either expect just one result or a number of them; and you may require an answer immediately or not. The mechanics of remote communication might be something like this: 1 immediate answer: sync 1 delayed answer: async n immediate answers: async n delayed answers: async Of course, asynchronous messaging introduces a host of new problems, but they should be easier to deal with than having to code remote calls by hand. If you wanted that kind of subtlety locally, you'd at least be able to widen the interface with some shared memory/shared object communication or even cheap additional calls. Remotely, every communication is expensive. My book says: first make it work, then make it easy, finally make it cheap. Having the ability for free-running intelligent applications to communicate by sending messages was always a simple and powerful technique in many of the inter-machine situations I've programmed (long before the WWW or CORBA or RMI was around), and RPC feels like a completely unjustified restriction. I take it that by RPC you mean the request-response thing? And I'd suspect the OMG as the hidden source of a lot of the twisted thinking that forced it on us ... a dream, that many bought into, that 'Objects' were the answer to everything, and a theory that the only thing you can do to an object is invoke it, and another theory that the object inside a program is the same as an object in another continent, and they should all look the same and etcetera etcetera. On the surface, they all look like reasonable ideas. Well, everything's an object, isn't it ? Kiss my object ! I seem to detect some hostility in this last part :) - Tim Un saludo, Alex.
RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
I second that nomination. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of jean-frederic clere Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To jvote or not to jvote
From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? If they all should, then a lot are missing! Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
On 2/4/02 12:59 PM, jean-frederic clere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1 -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: URGENT: 3rd Party jar's in apache CVS need immediate action.
Ainsi parlait Kimbro Staken : On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 08:46 AM, Guillaume Rousse wrote: I don't think this is really a *benefit* of Java software. Nothing prevent a native software to provide staticaly-linked binaries of make for every existing platforms in CVS. The fact that one only ant binary for Java software is enough doesn't make it an acceptable practice. This is absolutely a benefit of Java software. While it was technically possible to do this for C projects it was practically infeasible. In Java it is entirely feasible and works just fine in the majority of cases. Perl is also multi-platforms, and doesn't rely on blind code duplication everyhwere, AFAK. Instead, they use dependencies. Keeping track of dependencies is the task of a package management system, which only exist for Unix AFAK, while Java is multi-platform. But when this means 'propagating nasty platforms-specific constraints everywhere', i think we reach limits of cross-platform possibilities :-) The issue raised was not a technical one, it was legal. Trying to put in a complex technical solution for it is overkill. The current mechanism works just fine in almost all cases. It may not be ideal, but so what; It still removes a lot more headaches then it creates. The current system is simple and functionnal, right, but it is ugly. And it is *really* a nightmare for people wanting to have a proper packaging policy, as Linux distribution for instance. Users relying on packaged software just have to use apt-get (for debian packages) or uprmi (for rpms packages) to have automated dependencies resolution, remote package fetching, and so on. What about the 99% of the world that uses a platform that isn't Linux? In open-source world this is usually *a bit* more. And there have been proposition recently of extending rpm use to any Unix. See http://www.openpkg.org Ensuring a consistent set of jars is not the task of developpers IHMO, but of packagers and distributers. Moreover, unless you are strictly self-dependant, So how is an Apache project not a packager and distributer? The perspective that open source should only be concerned with the perspective of the developer is not a good one. Apache project is only a distributer for apache project software. Java world is not limited to ASF :-) Plus, developers are not the only people who pull the code from CVS. I cringe at the thought of having to ensure that everybody who uses our CVS tree also needs to manually update dependencies as the software evolves. Why manually ? You have ant task for this... In the current mechanism the system always works. If the source changes such that it depends on an updated jar a simple CVS update will bring not only the source change but the updated jar as well. You always know that the software is supposed to build out of the box and that if it doesn't then someone is on the hook for breaking the build. To say that this isn't a unique benefit of Java is simply not true. The current mechanism also force you sometimes to use out-dated software, just because developpers were not aware of compatibility breaks. It happened recently with ArgoUML, which could not work with xerces-j 1.2., which was a nightmare to figure. This is clearly a developper task, not a user task. Projects as gump try to achieve the same result. If a dependency becomes unavailable, i think there is a reason behind (obsolescence, upgrade, security hole, etc). By short-circuiting the effect, you prevent normal evolution to takes place. Or it could simply be a network failure or server crash or maybe the software moved or maybe the person who made it available changed their mind and pulled it. Regardless of the reason you still have the dependency and the software is now useless to the user trying to install it. Jpackage project (http://package.org) try to provide such a consistent set of java software for rpm world. Debian java project Heh heh, as I write this, this site is down. :-) My fault, it's http://www.jpackage.org, or http://jpackage.sourceforge.net (http://people.debian.org/~tora/java/packagelist.html) provide the same service for debian world. Both try also to enforce nomal Unix conventions (FHS, etc...) and establish cross-project packaging policies. We all know this only adress a subset of java realm, so we don't ask for dropping other platforms support. We just ask to make it an optional additional layer, not make it mandatory as it is currently... I'm kind of disappointed. You suggested that we break all of our software by removing all the jars from CVS and then offer a solution that will only work for an extremely small percentage of the user population. Very disappointing. My proposition was rather: as we are currently cleaning the CVS, why not jump on the event to look for better solutions. BTW, -1 to the whole idea. The issue raised was legal and
Re: To jvote or not to jvote
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange
I accept this nomination, which was originally sent to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. Thanks Rod! - Original Message - From: Waldhoff, Rodney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:15 AM Subject: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC. He's a founding member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial amount of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To jvote or not to jvote
Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To jvote or not to jvote
Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
Another legend. +1 by all means. Bojan On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 04:59, jean-frederic clere wrote: I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To jvote or not to jvote
ARE two +1 votes necessary? That was not mentioned in the original email Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002. (Just to stave off any potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how elections are run. It's not our call.) - Original Message - From: Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
+1 Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]En nombre de jean-frederic clere Enviado el: lunes 4 de febrero de 2002 18:59 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Broken Link On Struts Page
FYI - On this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources.html, the link called StrutsResourcesChecker to this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources/checker.html is broken. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Broken Link On Struts Page
The best place to post a message like this is the Struts-DEV list. Each subproject maintains their own area of the Web site. But in this case, I'll take care of it :-) -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Java Web Development with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - On this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources.html, the link called StrutsResourcesChecker to this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/resources/checker.html is broken. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: To jvote or not to jvote
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? I fear by having to be manually be going through the archives careully. Thanks for compiling the checklist below ! As an extra safeguard - the 3 volunteers will send out a message to general@ with what they think is the proper list on the 7th. With a 48 hours to correct exactly this sort of thing. Dw This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
+1 We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real OSS and ASF spirit defensor jean-frederic clere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
+1 We should call Costin Professor since he's a terrific example of patience and excellence, a very consensual man and a real OSS and ASF spirit defensor jean-frederic clere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC. Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0, tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...). He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions. He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real hacker. I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the jakarta-tomcat-* projects. Cheers Jean-frederic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. I hope that Sun will recall from its previous mistakes, like putting Solaris in OSS just when Linux was so widely used on Unix boxes that it became a de-facto reference in business even considered by IT. May be they will wake-up when MS .NET will start to populate 70% of the Web Services of the Planet, at that time they'll propose Java to OSS. But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad. Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of just software. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 09:18, Sam Ruby wrote: Paul Hammant wrote: What rules do you want changed? 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF attentions. 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where I can find them? ;-) Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) ) Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Quoting from www.apache.org: The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and users. I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps. It would seem to be slightly outside Jakarta's mission statement Jakarta is a Project of the Apache Software Foundation, charged with the creation and maintenance of commercial-quality, open-source, server-side solutions for the Java Platform, based on software licensed to the Foundation, for distribution at no charge to the public. with the probable failing principal being server-side. I don't really object or anything. Just pointing that out. Warning: that's a trick question. If you want to take initiative and move jesktop to sourceforge, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and build a community for jesktop here within Apache, you will ultimately be successful. If you want to take initiative and work to get a rule changed you will ultimately be successful. The only think you will find that you don't have control over is the number of hours in a day. Three assertions - a, b c. (a) true, (b) subject to project-status and 1 above, (c) subject to 2 above. Apache and Jakarta get proposals all the time that are of the form if only these codebases were part of the Jakarta or Apache, then certainly they would attract a community. Such proposals generally get politely turned away. You really think there is a real possibility to stay here and flourish? Actually, no. At least not given the information you have provided before. Specifically, the comment about being sidetracked with Enterprise Object Broker and AltRMI (and would be with AvalonDB if I had time). But this has nothing to do with a, b, *OR* c above. I can't resist closing this with the following: In The Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is lost in Oz and longs for home. She visits the Wizard, who gives her a task that she must perform (killing the Wicked Witch) before he will help her. When she and her friends accomplish this task, Dorothy comes back to the Wizard, only to discover that he's a charlatan with no more powers than she. And, yet, he knows much! The Wizard tells Dorothy that she has had the power to go home all along--inside herself. All she has to do is click her ruby slippers together saying, There's no place like home. Should the Wizard have told Dorothy when she first came to him that she alone had the power to bring herself home? Would she have believed him? Aren't we all looking for our Wizard, the Great Oz, Someone, Something, that will have the answers and help us find home? We do not easily accept that home can be found inside our own skin, or in the very house we inhabit, or in the very lives we live. The path toward home begins where we are, and only we can direct ourselves to it. And the only way to comprehend that is to begin the journey outward, and inward, on our own path toward home. ;-) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
On 2/4/02 7:04 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 09:18, Sam Ruby wrote: Paul Hammant wrote: What rules do you want changed? 1) Apache considering that GUI apps are legitimate targets for ASF attentions. 2) If jakarta is not the place, then a foundary for GUI apps/comps/tools These rules don't seem to be present in my copy, can you point me to where I can find them? ;-) Perhaps I am foolish in that I think this is a forgone conclusion? (i.e. will be voted down by jakarta-general for (1) and PMC for (2) ) Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Quoting from www.apache.org: The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and users. I see absolutely nothing there that would preclude GUI apps. It would seem to be slightly outside Jakarta's mission statement I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be on the server... Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a tool for java api documentation
The goal of dbdoc is the same as javadoc's: to produce documentation and make it accessible via a web browser. Forcibly then there must exist similarities between the two. dbdoc actually uses javadoc at runtime to generate the in-memory object model of java packages. so i see it more as an evolution or customization of javadoc rather than a replacement of javadoc. I think that this is Javadoc with modifications. The Javadoc license doesn't allow one to release the modified source code. I use the doclet mechanism to extract documentation information. The doclet api provides a clear demarcation between the javadoc code and the customizations. One essential design difference between dbdoc and javadoc is the fact that dbdoc uses a database. this creates two significant advantages in dbdoc: 1. the ability to build api documentation incrementally, where a single repository is used for multiple api's and where the various api's are actually cross-referenced. 2. content becomes searchable i understand that these may not be significant differences to many developers. but have you ever wondered why the sun site does not provide a single location to browse their javadocs? the other major difference i do not mention is that if you view the gui using ie 5.5 or 6.0, you will see a radically different implementation of the gui. this is another by-product of the design difference between javadoc and dbdoc. the dbdoc gui is jsp/template-based, which makes it much easier to maintain, revise, and/or enhance. i believe that javadoc's html doclet suffers from the same problems of the servlet days (before template mechanisms were introduced) where the html is generated using inline println() statements. / eitan - Original Message - From: Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 3:20 PM Subject: Re: a tool for java api documentation -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 2/3/02 10:12 PM, Eitan Suez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you have the time, i would be very interested in (and would very much appreciate) your thoughts and feedback on dbdoc. Sincerely, Eitan Suez Programmer snip/ Other than that, cool software...I don't see a link to download the source code though...:-( Until you provide that link, it is useless to advertise it here as it makes you look kind of funny...:-) I think that this is Javadoc with modifications. The Javadoc license doesn't allow one to release the modified source code. PS... thanks SUN! :( Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ The dawn is rising on a new day! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8XvsTAwM6xb2dfE0RApmeAJ4r7oxA0D1b87qI0KroLGYuP2FccwCcCh3W QlCil3OnJG4twUTL/niKfI0= =YpYa -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a tool for java api documentation
on 2/4/02 4:23 PM, Eitan Suez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the dbdoc gui is jsp/template-based, which makes it much easier to maintain, revise, and/or enhance. To bad you didn't use Velocity, then I would believe your claim. :-) Anyway, when are you going to make this cool tool available as open source? :-) I might even be interested in helping you convert it to Velocity. :-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 16:58, Kevin A. Burton wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for the X-post. Then don't do it. I just created a new mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can sign up here: http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead ... Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. Do you *hate* the JCP? probably too strong a word. Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and bloating it beyond belief? no. I think the VM needs a few new *well engineered* features. Do you want SUN to Open Source Java? I think so...I'm not always sure about that. Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations? perhaps. ... I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. no offense but if java is dead, why would you want a mailing list to beat a dead horse? Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your site. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! - Emiliano Zapata -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8XwPpAwM6xb2dfE0RAs5MAKCjopim62GAoeZSKxcPK8l5+VkJTwCbBVoC 5uMWqzV1IrVYFdcZjk8YcQ8= =Vgaj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be on the server... whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again. Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :) And a rapid fire reset button. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
On 2/4/02 8:00 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be on the server... whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again. Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :) And a rapid fire reset button. There are three, right? CTL, ALT and DEL? :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts don't impact the viability of that effort. - Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform Services Sun Microsystems -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jesktop migrating from Jakarta to Sourceforge
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 20:12, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 2/4/02 8:00 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought the same of POI, but the most popular use case was claimed to be on the server... whoa, I'll shut up now less I forget which end is up again. Every microsoft server requires a GUI, for example :) And a rapid fire reset button. There are three, right? CTL, ALT and DEL? :) ahh yes. 4 if you count the one on the case. -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts don't impact the viability of that effort. - Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform Services Sun Microsystems -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for the X-post. I just created a new mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can sign up here: http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead ... Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Do you *hate* the JCP? Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and bloating it beyond belief? Do you want SUN to Open Source Java? Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations? ... I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your site. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! - Emiliano Zapata -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8XwPpAwM6xb2dfE0RAs5MAKCjopim62GAoeZSKxcPK8l5+VkJTwCbBVoC 5uMWqzV1IrVYFdcZjk8YcQ8= =Vgaj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. Well there really isn't any place to organize an effort like this... AKA java-is-dead :) ... and yes I agree. SUN is VERY stubborn even when faced with an inevitable fact of life. I just don't want to scrap all the Java work I have done over the last few years just because SUN managers can't pull their heads out of the sand :( Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! - Emiliano Zapata -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8X0drAwM6xb2dfE0RAqtzAJ9w+C3rv7MGZD609xu6qfBGmNUr3wCfX/PB xOmgptKLTBkKFIJkppPMqrI= =NdDd -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Kevin A. Burton Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:48 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip/ But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad. Yes... I couldn't agree more. SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it proprietary and continually bloats the JDK. Thanks guys ! :( Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of just software. ... SUN and learn shouldn't be in the same sentence :) Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ Copyright exists to improve science not to preserve the rights of the author. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8X0fLAwM6xb2dfE0RAkmfAJ4mo4r7qRS6rRXjr8Kflffv1ZO7ZgCeN7Nt +rHGEPJ4ceN2c/qYlJJc008= =aqyl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal. Simple: JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this wildly. Hmmn. So what is the significance? What does this mean for implementations? Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent others from implementing it? What are the worse case scenarios? What is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR? Aaron -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
