PMC chair nominations?
Sam said that we should obtain nominations for chair from people in the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by the 16th, followed by [a]n election where every member of the PMC has one vote...to be completed on the 18th. Whoops, we're late. Are we obligated to choose a chair this month. I don't think we have enought time left for a proper vote. - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC
+1 - Morgan --- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip/ The next board meeting is the 19th. My suggestion is that current PMC members nominate individuals that they believe should be on the PMC by the 9th, then we hold a vote on these nominees to be complete on the 12th. This is to be followed this up with nominations for chair from people in the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by the 16th. An election where every member of the PMC has one vote, will then commence, to be completed on the 18th. If there are concerns about not wishing one's votes to be known, I can ask the board for an independent set of participants to tally the votes. In any case, I can inform the board of the results (potentially jointly with my intended successor) on the 19th. How does this sound? - Sam Ruby = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination
--- Jeffrey Dever [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to the exclusion of active committers. I'm the release prime for Commons HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the time, including releases. HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons as it is rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a rich family where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just one project, HttpClient. The goal is to make all active committers PMC members. Then what, exactly, is the difference between a committer and a PMC member? I thought the goal was to have the release primes be the PMC members. It is the Project Management Committee after all. If the implication is that release management = project management, I don't agree. Typically there can only be one release manager, but it's takes lots of people to keep a project going. Certainly every release manager should forward themselves as PMC nominees, but the body of qualified candidates is much larger. - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Licensing again.
No there are plenty of works derived from Apache projects. Apache code may be freely modified or redistributed, but as per the Apache license: The end-user documentation included with [redistributions of Apache code], if any, must include the following acknowlegement: This product includes software developed by the Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/). Alternately, this acknowlegement may appear in the software itself, if and wherever such third-party acknowlegements normally appear. The fact that Apache code has an owner (the ASF membership) and a copyright does not exclude it from having an open-source license. In fact, if the code did not have an owner, the license would be exceedingly difficult to defend. - Morgan --- Timothy Halloran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this mean the ASF has taken away the ability for others to do derived works (including derived works that make the code commercial or GPL -- with a simple name change)? That would mean the license is no longer open source (by OSD anyway)? This is a strange discussion thread. On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 12:36, Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 10/2/03 4:05 Lawrence E. Rosen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It should be noted that Apache Software Foundation members are the legal *owners* of the software that is available under the Apache Software License. Indeed, that is one of the key benefits to becoming an ASF member, as opposed to just a committer on one or more projects. It seems perfectly reasonable that decisions on the license under which that software is licensed should be made by the people that own it. I'm curious. What is the legal basis for this claim of ownership? The fact that each contributor, prior access to our CVS repository, signs a paper saying that for whatever goes in CVS, he assigns copyright and ownership of the code to the ASF... No more no less than what any random employee of a software company does with his employer... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Logging strategy
--- Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:21 29.01.2003 +0100, Dani Estermann wrote: Has jakarta got a strategy/guideline/regulation that recommends a certain logging api to be used by jakarta projects? Are existing and future jakarta projects allowed to choose between log4j, LogKit, commons-logging or even JDK1.4-Logging? We are currently choosing a logging api and implementation to be used in our business projects. While I favor the power of the log4j implementation, I ask myself if it would be wise to use a -- maybe more future-proof -- thin bridge like commons-logging on top. I believe log4j is here to stay. Its user base is large and growing. As time passes, more people will gravitate to it as it keeps improving. We have enough cool features in pipe to keep us busy for the foreseeable future. Simile, the future is bright and open! I agree with Ceki, Log4j has a bright future indeed. If it were my project, I'd pick Log4J first, then the Merlin logging (even if I were using JDK 1.4). I don't known too much about LogKit, but it's probably fine as well. Don't use commons-logging unless you're absolutely sure you need it. If you are distributing your code to other companies, then you might have an argument for a logging facade in order to plug into their logging framework. However, if your code is intended for internal use only, using a facade is more work with no benefit. - Morgan Daniel -- Ceki - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations
Are the current PMC members automatically re-upped? And it sounds like there won't have to be a massive all-committer election like last year, which I'm sure will be a relief to Dirk. ;) Sounds like Jakarta PMC membership will become more like Apache membership; once you're in, you can stay in as long as you remain active. - Morgan --- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reorging the Jakarta PMC apparently has become an annual event. This year will be no different. I've had lengthy talks with the Apache Board, and this has caused me to revisit a number of assumptions. Looking at http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/, it is clear that the ASF concept of a Project Management Committee permits a significantly larger number of PMC members per project than I, at least, had ever presumed. Given the success that Jakarta has had to date, I don't want to propose any rapid, irreversable, or disruptive changes. But the goal should be clear: the PMC should consist of *all* the people who are actively and consistently monitoring the code. So for the first step, I'd like to nominate the following individuals who have contributed multiple times to the Jakarta newsletter and/or recently served as a release manager of a Jakarta subproject: [ ] Nicola Ken Barozzi [ ] Stephen Colebourne [ ] Martin Cooper [ ] Henri Gomez [ ] John Keyes [ ] Larry Isaacs [ ] Otis Gospodnetic [ ] Thomas Mahler [ ] Remy Maucherat [ ] Glenn Nielsen [ ] Andrew C Oliver [ ] Rob Oxspring [ ] Martin Poeschl [ ] Scott Sanders [ ] David Sean Taylor [ ] Mladen Turk [ ] James Turner [ ] Henri Yandell Future steps will include introduction of a concept of an emeritus PMC member, reinstating prior PMC members who are still active, and more nominations (particularly those that chose to contribute to the newsletter, and/or act as release manager, hint, hint). Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects that chose to remain in Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in particular release votes will become a responsibility of the PMC. That does not mean that all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that it will be from this pool of members that release votes will be cast. Clearly there will need to be a number waves of additions like the one above to the PMC before we get to this point. Meanwhile, my plan is to see to it that those subprojects that desire to become ASF projects will get the full cooperation and support of this PMC. Now for some fine print: * nominees may chose to decline without giving any reason * only current PMC member's votes are binding * once the vote completes, PMC membership is not effective until 48 hours after a board member acknowledges receipt of these votes. Let the voting begin! - Sam Ruby P.S. My vote is +1 on all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta member seeking ASF membership
is approved. Especially for projects like Commons, which clearly tie to existing communities. Jakarta Commons is a very active community and our charter was created very deliberately; I think we would have had a lot to offer to the discussion. And I don't think that j-c has a monopoly here; projects like Commons are relevant to all committers. - Shane Disclaimers: ASF Member; xml-xalan, xml-commons committer; IBM Employee; Massachusetts, USA resident; lover of bad puns and cats. = - Shane eof .sig='When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a very scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less' Oohayu oyod?!=gis. / __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Jakarta member seeking ASF membership
Hi all, [from a previous thread on a previous list] Morgan Delagrange wrote: I don't know if I've yet achieved the status of a long-term [committer] who have earned the right to set Apache-wide policies [...] However, there's no time like the present to find out. Roy Fielding has suggested that not enough Jakarta members seek membership in the ASF. Until recently, I was quite happy plugging along in my little Jakarta world, developing software and trusting the Apache world to continue onward as it has. However, recent events have shown me that my view may be too narrow. One specific example (sorry if you subscribe to the reorg list, as this is repetition of threads there): a top-level Apache project with the same name and similar scope as a Jakarta subproject can be proposed, discussed and approved (including a PMC) without ever being mentioned on a list to which I can subscribe. This week, a mailing list was formed to try to alleviate some of these communication deficiencies, but in the words of a former U.S. president, trust, yet verify. So my specific goal in seeking ASF membership is to look inside the black box. I already know that important decisions can be made that are hidden from the view of most committers. I'd like to know more about the process, and hopefully help to make these decisions more open and transparent to committers at large; at present a very small percentage of Jakarta members are actually ASF members. Likewise, I encourage other Jakarta committers to consider seeking ASF membership if they are also concerned about representation and the decision-making process. The Board seems very interested in increasing our numbers in the ASF membership, and I think we should take them up on this opportunity. Specifically, I'd like to ask a member of our PMC or any current ASF member to sponsor my membership., Unfortunately I will probably not be able to attend the next Foundation meeting, and so I'd also ask that my sponsor act as my proxy, if possible. If I understand this process correctly, if I am nominated, I fill out an application form and it's discussed on the private [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list until a decision spits out. I guess I won't be gaining any insight into the admission process at first. :) - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Jakarta member seeking ASF membership
As far as I can tell, that's up to the ASF to decide on a case-by-case basis. So I suggest that if you think your experince would make a valuable contribution to the ASF, ask our PMC for sponsorship. The worst they can do is say no. --- Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we're expected to nominate ourselves as such, it'd be nice to have some guidelines as to what we should be looking at in our day-to-day Apache goings on to know that the time has come. So we don't look like young punks :) Hen On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote: Hi all, [from a previous thread on a previous list] Morgan Delagrange wrote: I don't know if I've yet achieved the status of a long-term [committer] who have earned the right to set Apache-wide policies [...] However, there's no time like the present to find out. Roy Fielding has suggested that not enough Jakarta members seek membership in the ASF. Until recently, I was quite happy plugging along in my little Jakarta world, developing software and trusting the Apache world to continue onward as it has. However, recent events have shown me that my view may be too narrow. One specific example (sorry if you subscribe to the reorg list, as this is repetition of threads there): a top-level Apache project with the same name and similar scope as a Jakarta subproject can be proposed, discussed and approved (including a PMC) without ever being mentioned on a list to which I can subscribe. This week, a mailing list was formed to try to alleviate some of these communication deficiencies, but in the words of a former U.S. president, trust, yet verify. So my specific goal in seeking ASF membership is to look inside the black box. I already know that important decisions can be made that are hidden from the view of most committers. I'd like to know more about the process, and hopefully help to make these decisions more open and transparent to committers at large; at present a very small percentage of Jakarta members are actually ASF members. Likewise, I encourage other Jakarta committers to consider seeking ASF membership if they are also concerned about representation and the decision-making process. The Board seems very interested in increasing our numbers in the ASF membership, and I think we should take them up on this opportunity. Specifically, I'd like to ask a member of our PMC or any current ASF member to sponsor my membership., Unfortunately I will probably not be able to attend the next Foundation meeting, and so I'd also ask that my sponsor act as my proxy, if possible. If I understand this process correctly, if I am nominated, I fill out an application form and it's discussed on the private [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list until a decision spits out. I guess I won't be gaining any insight into the admission process at first. :) - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: [Actual Action Taken] Re: Advertisement using Apache lists
--- Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please see: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/vendors.html If this is acceptable (this is the best I could do on my lunch break ;-) ) Doesn't there need to be some legalese? Jakarta does not endorse those vendors; that should probably be noted. -- I'll go ahead and update the site and I'll supply a patch for mail.html that asks that folks don't post commercial ads to the mail lists rather supply a patch for the vendor page to be applied at jakarta-site2 committer discretion. So, if a committer is competing with another company, he can veto that company's patches? How is this governed, while still maintaining our integrity as a non-for-profit volunteer organization? If you have minor suggestions for this, please supply them in the form of commits or patches that correct any minor errors or improve things. I'm not interested in creating the vendor superpage. Thanks, -Andy PS I realize www.superlinksoftware.com is down at the moment. Its undergoing upgrades. It'll be back up at the end of the week. On Mon, 2002-05-13 at 09:32, Henri Yandell wrote: +1 from me. While it's nice to see committers who are able to commercially work with the experience they gain/use here, it would be very demeaning to the list for every company who are using jsp/servlets/other to post their consultant services to the general list. Hen On 13 May 2002, Leo Simons wrote: +1 to all of that. - Leo Sun Micro, has a page of here are Java companies -- lets innovate it and put up a similar Jakarta page -- Here are companies and folks who support Apache Jakarta software. I volunteer. Secondly, lets Make a rule NOT to post advertising to the mail lists, that is NOT what they are there for. This does a few things: 1. Provides a good rationale to companies to use Apache Jakarta Software (not a specific goal of the group but a personal goal of several people here including myself as I like working with GOOD software) 2. Gives those companies a place to post thats relevant to Jakarta, won't annoy people who might otherwise use them. 3. Give those companies a high visability web page to advertise on. 4. God I don't need more spam. My spam filter entries will one day reach the limit on the number of strings I can match on. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org __ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAIN TING The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project. Gather some developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides. Later on, if you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging area, and call another vote. Both will do the job. Personally I like XSLT. I find it feature rich and I don't find it difficult to use. But I'll use DVSL if that's what the project requires. I think the quantity of developers who are literally incapable of using one or the other is negligable. If they are ideologically incapable, that's their problem. Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other exclusively. For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added a transform to Anakia so it works with the site build. Similarly you may be able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives. This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else. This just happened to be the most recent post on this topic. - Morgan - Original Message - From: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)) Guys, Bottom line (you could probably guess these but it needs to be said): 1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined effort with centipede. 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to. So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is successful... If its that a large set or all of the projects on jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it removes my and several others objections). If its to force us all to use your pet projects, well good luck. Its certainly not turning out to be a springboard for collaboration. You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it. Work towards collaboration. Work towards standards support. Then you'll reach a consensus. If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve. -Andy Berin Loritsch wrote: Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision to get past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that works and is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think, IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge. I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me. I can't stand XSL... And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages... Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/ But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: You guys are so funny.
I agree with pretty much everything said, although as always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever would. :) Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should use. If you don't like it, prove that your alternative is better. But dropping a whole project because of a detail is needless. - Morgan --- Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter. DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both. Costin You guys are so funny. Bike Sheds -- At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world. On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on Sourceforget.net all the time. The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not valid in my opinion. Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like that. You hypocrite. Learning Technology --- The argument about learning minor technologies to make money is so silly it is funny. I have owned/started several companies now and have been responsible for hiring or directly approving the hiring of about 50-60 people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount, but not small either. Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person knows minor technology X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the most about was that the person had a general good skill set and the aptitude to learn something new. So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not have hired you anyway. On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into the box because everyone else is doing it would make me instantly not like your personality. I like people who are free thinkers and who can think outside of the box. Software is an art form, not something that you can just cookie cutter produce (and have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that you care about the code and systems you are creating. People -- Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar. Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped). Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu! :-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: You guys are so funny.
- Original Message - From: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: You guys are so funny. You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to use a combined collaborated project... I'd -1 solely on that. Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about xsl)... I'd -1 solely on that Nope I'm not missing your point. I'm just waiting for the salient points to come out. This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring. You've said: [Andy] 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to. and Jon has said: [Jon] I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me. I can't stand XSL... I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he picked up my bike shed argument. I suspect you are too. If we want to see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table. So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached to the color of their shed. However it's hard to even judge what would make a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal. If there are real discrepencies, let's spell them out. BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based? I regard this as a product change. DVSL is a product change for Centipede. XSL is a product change for Maven. If the projects merge, different approaches will have to be reconciled by the majority; essentially you would have a new product; there would be no existing product to change. Clearly most people don't known what, if anything, they want to gain from this discussion. Two compatible projects? One merged project? Let's work out some more detailed proposals before chasing at shadows. Morgan Delagrange wrote: I agree with pretty much everything said, although as always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever would. :) Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should use. If you don't like it, prove that your alternative is better. But dropping a whole project because of a detail is needless. - Morgan --- Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter. DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both. Costin You guys are so funny. Bike Sheds -- At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world. On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on Sourceforget.net all the time. The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not valid in my opinion. Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like that. You hypocrite. Learning Technology --- The argument about learning minor technologies to make money is so silly it is funny. I have owned/started several companies now and have been responsible for hiring or directly approving the hiring of about 50-60 people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount, but not small either. Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person knows minor technology X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the most about was that the person had a general good skill set and the aptitude to learn something new. So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not have hired you anyway. On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into the box because everyone else is doing it would make me instantly not like your personality. I like people who are free thinkers and who can think outside of the box. Software is an art form, not something that you can just cookie cutter produce (and have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that you care about the code and systems you are creating. People -- Needless
Re: News Page Problems
Thats probably my fault. I'll fix it. --- Daniel F. Savarese [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kur t Schrader writes: It seems that whomever updated http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html last somehow managed to generate it in such a way so that it has two menus, instead of just one. The jakarta-site2 build from CVS appears to work correctly though, so someone with karma probably just needs to rebuild and update the site. When I tried to update news.html I got a conflict, so I moved it to news.html.conflict and did an update for the sake of having the Web site look right. I'll leave it to someone else who knows what was intended to resolve the conflict. daniel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs http://jakarta.apache.org/commons http://axion.tigris.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ANNOUNCE] Jakarta Commons Collections 2.0 Released
Come and get the Commons Collections 2.0 release! http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/components.html Commons-Collections provides a suite of classes that extend or augment the Java Collections Framework. Collections 2.0 includes 11 new collections and 3 new comparators, as well as several enhancements and bug fixes. Enjoy! - The Commons Dev Team _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
- Original Message - From: Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: RE: Comments on the commons-logging API From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Yes, the defining advantage to the commons-logging API that I see is that it allows users to adopt a single logging implementation, which confers real What needs to be appended to that statement is ...if everyone codes to the commons-logging API. Every component that uses the Commons Logging proxy will play well with every other component using the proxy, _plus_ all code using a single logger implementation of your choice. Saying that everyone must code to the commons-logging API is an oversimplification. More accurately, coding to commons-logging facilitates integration with a single arbitrary logging implementation. Any environment that uses a combination of the logging facade and a single logging implementation will work well. Any environment that uses more than one logging implementation will not work as well. The exact same statement can be reconstructed using Log4J API and it is equally true. If you can guarantee that: 1) All Jakarta developers will use Log4J in their code, eschewing even LogKit, another logging implementation under the Jakarta umbrella. and 2) All Jakarta _users_ will use Log4J in their code. then there is no need for a proxy logger. If everyone uses commons-logging, then only one logger must be configured. If everyone uses Log4J, then only one logger must be configured. Where is this world where everyone uses Log4J? If third-party software is using different loggers, then you have to configure multiple loggers no matter what API your code uses. Unless that third-party is Jakarta, and that software is utilizing a proxy logger like commons-logging. That's the whole point, we can't (and shouldn't) dictate what implementations others may choose to use. We can, however, facilitate integration with their implementation. Or we can leave them to the wolves. It seems to me that the commons-logging API just adds Yet Another Logging API... especially when someone gets the bright idea to make a native implementation of the API for performance reasons. At least with Turbine, Struts, (Maverick :-), etc, there are some fundamentally different approaches to the problem of how to publish a web application. Logging doesn't seem that complicated. The massive duplication of this basic feature in the Jakarta codebase is silly, and trying to build an abstraction layer on top of it seems even sillier. I'm not sure what massive duplication you're referring to, but you seem to believe that an abstraction layer is unimportant because you think everyone should use Log4J. I think the LogKit folks would disagree. I do too; for simple logging in a JDK 1.4 environment, using the built-in logger should be perfectly acceptable. Because I made that choice, does that mean I should not get any output from Jakarta components in my log? - Morgan Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
- Original Message - From: Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API At 15:10 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote: Where is this world where everyone uses Log4J? That world = (world - jakarta) I am pro-Log4J. I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless something better came along). Generally, commons-logging neither encourages nor discourages use of Log4J. However, I would argue that it _does_ encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war. The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become more and more common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic recantation of that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is necessary. Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the expense of those who use other logger implementations. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
- Original Message - From: Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API At 15:30 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote: I am pro-Log4J. I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless something better came along). Generally, commons-logging neither encourages nor discourages use of Log4J. However, I would argue that it _does_ encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war. True. It does encourage it, but only initially. On the long run, however, people will run into problems with their logging (as is happening now). They will say this commons-logging+log4j stuff is too complicated, we'll switch to JDK 1.4 logging, at least that does not have any CLASSPATH problems. I'm not convinced. These sound like minor, temporary issues, not showstoppers. Classpaths do get a little complicated, but it's only one additional JAR. The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become more and more common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic recantation of that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is necessary. Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the expense of those who use other logger implementations. Possible but I would not be that sure. We will have very strong new features in log4j 1.3 (the release after 1.2) which will leave JDK 1.4 logging even further behind. Just as importantly, log4j documentation is going to get a massive boost with the upcoming log4j book. I hope you're right. Log4J is a great tool. Still, you cannot dictate preference. Sun's me-too strategy is bound to fail. The question is whether the bigger jakarta community is going to help us defeat JSR47 or stand in the way. That's a bit harsh, isn't it? - Morgan -- Ceki _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
- Original Message - From: Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: RE: Comments on the commons-logging API At 11:49 27.03.2002 -0600, Rodney Waldhoff wrote: But this isn't really the reason commons-logging was created. Note that most of the commons components are just that--tiny libraries meant to be integrated/incorporated into larger frameworks and larger applications. Some of these components need/want logging capabilities, or at least some people need/want some components to have logging capabilities. But it seems a obtrusive for some tiny library to dictate the logging framework (if any) that should be used by the larger application that contains it. So the component is stuck with a decision between not using logging at all, or forcing some standard logging implementation upon the larger framework, and the containing application is stuck with either converting everything to this standard logging implementation (and hoping that each component agrees on what that is) or having a heterogeneous set of logs and logging implementations. Search-and-replace code switching isn't really an option for the commons components, or at least not a terribly good one. If your library chooses to use logging API XYZ, this does not impose XYZ to the clients of your library. Your clients can use the logging library they prefer (if they are using logging API) and your library can use XYZ. One choice does not necessarily influence the other. For example, the fact that JBoss uses log4j does not impose a logging library to the bean developer. Similarly, Tomcat's logging library does not prevent web-app developers from using log4j. But it doesn't facilitate it either. Here's the problem, as I see it. Suppose Commons component A decides to adopt Log4J, Commons component B decides to adopt LogKit, and Commons component C adopts JDK1.4 logging. They will all minimally function with the right jars in the classpath. However you (the end-user) are left with maintaining configuration for 3 different logging APIs, which is tedious at best. When you take into account cool features like variable log levels, Log4J appenders and the like, you're pretty much guaranteed to swallow up useful configuration options because sophisticated configurations are too difficult to maintain over mutiple logging implementations. Contrarily, if all three Commons components use a logging facade, you can focus all your configuration efforts on one logging implementation. Sure, there is a trade-off; you don't have access to all the features, and the interface between the facade and the implementation must be maintained. But the benefits are not just political; they potentially make the end-users configuration much easier. Even if all Commons components used the same logging implementation (Log4J for example), other projects in Jakarta-land may choose otherwise. If you add enough Jakarta projects to your environment, you eventually end up with the scenario described above. It's a worthwhile effort to attempt a logging solution that plays well with the Jakarta community at large. I think in many cases the Commons Logging component can fill that role. To take your analogy of trading a nickel's worth of functionality for a penny payoff later (only because I'm dying to play off of it, FEEL FREE TO IGNORE THIS PARAGRAPH :), yes each logger implementation delivers that nickel. However Log4J is delivering a US nickel, LogKit a Canadian nickel, and JDK 1.4 a wooden nickel. Each end-user becomes a bank that must constantly monitor the exchange rate between those nickels, including those wooden nickels which aren't worth a damn. Some banks would prefer the guarantee of a good penny than deal with the hassle of all those nickels. :) In other words, the argument about (jakarta-commons) components dictating a logging API to the containing application is widely accepted although very dubious in my opinion. I don't know if the word dictate quite captures it. Anyway, I think we have been through all this already. I do not expect to be able to convince anyone altough I suspect uncertainty and the bug reports will, slowly but surely. It may be difficult to maintain. The most we can do to mitigate it is frequent releases and careful version management. Commons-Logging is meant to provide an alternative solution: create a facade/adapter around an arbitrary logging API, use it at the common component level, and allow the user (the containing application) to select which specific logging implementation (if any) to use. Then the same binary works everywhere, and in many (most?) cases, the commons-logging will just quietly do what you hope it would. (If you've got log4j, it uses it. If you've got JDK 1.4, it uses that. If all else fails, it doesn't do anything.) I don't think hoping quitely and computers get along very
Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
- Original Message - From: Ceki Gülcü [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API At 15:18 27.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote: Here's the problem, as I see it. Suppose Commons component A decides to adopt Log4J, Commons component B decides to adopt LogKit, and Commons component C adopts JDK1.4 logging. They will all minimally function with the right jars in the classpath. However you (the end-user) are left with maintaining configuration for 3 different logging APIs, which is tedious at best. When you take into account cool features like variable log levels, Log4J appenders and the like, you're pretty much guaranteed to swallow up useful configuration options because sophisticated configurations are too difficult to maintain over mutiple logging implementations. Contrarily, if all three Commons components use a logging facade, you can focus all your configuration efforts on one logging implementation. Sure, there is a trade-off; you don't have access to all the features, and the interface between the facade and the implementation must be maintained. But the benefits are not just political; they potentially make the end-users configuration much easier. So, if I understand correctly the reason for adopting commons-logging API is for convenience rather than non-intrusiveness as a library (with respect to logging). Yes, the defining advantage to the commons-logging API that I see is that it allows users to adopt a single logging implementation, which confers real benefits particularly with regard to configuration. Easy transitions from one logging implementation to another are not particularly important; the tangible benefit is to let disparate components have the _option_ to use the same log without complicated bridges between logging implementations. With commons-logging, the end user will only have to configure the logging API that common-logging selects (or detects) but the selection mechanism is dynamic such that there are many ways and reasons for which the selected API will be the wrong one. This is the uncertainty factor I am talking about. Uncertainty breeds confusion and confusion breeds despair. I believe the order of precedence is well documented. I think the logging component would benefit from warning messages when a default implementation is selected (like Log4J warns you when there is no log4j.properties file available), but this doesn't require any fundamental change to the API. If you want to take about confusion and despair, look at the environment that's running three logging implementations simultaneously. - Morgan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Overview
I'm not Ted, but let me take a stab. :) - Original Message - From: Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 7:09 AM Subject: RE: Jakarta Overview Ted, I don't want to have an argument, and I'm not criticising Philipp for offering, nor for the effort he obviously put in. I do have some reservations with this particular page, which I'm not going to raise again, if anyones interested they've already read them. I would like to take you up on a couple of points you make though, The overview has been donated to the ASF, and is under Jakarta rules now. Does this mean that anything donated is accepted on behalf of the project, by anyone with karma, without discussion and can therefore only be openly opposed once it has already been accepted? Yes, that is the Commit Then Review philosophy. You cannot prevent anyone from initially committing anything, but one it has been committed you can vote it down. If anyone wants to make it more objective, have at it. If not, leave it alone and it will wither away. What if (and I don't, I'm just asking) modification and inaction are not enough for me, I want to veto it? I don't have enough Karma for Jakarta-site2, but if I did would I be within my rights to arbitrarily remove it? I think, and hope, not. Therefore it seems that it is a bigger hurdle for a donation of this kind to be vetoed than accepted. You cannot arbitrarily remove it, but you can veto it. Under the current, slightly strange, default voting rules for Jakarta, Ted would have to talk you out of your objection; if he could not, he might have to back out his change (or you could do it for him). Any changes to a product require consensus approval. Does the website fit under the definition of a Jakarta product? A good question, which does not come up very often. Usually committers are more permissive of website changes then code changes. Regardless of the content, it's important to recognize that the initial author Did The Right Thing. The overview was prepared in XML and required no afterwork to commit. This makes him a Contributor in my book. If more of our users went to the trouble this person went to, we'd have more and better documentation throughout Jakarta. You're absolutely right, I agree utterly with that statement, and I hope my miserable grumping doesn't put him off. Apache stands for patching ... But we don't want to have to patch any old thing that comes swinging by, do we? Surely there could be a slightly better, and simple, way of accepting website proposals that makes it obvious that they are undergoing peer review? Well you can always exercise your veto. Then the committer backs it out, discusses changes on the list, makes some modifications, and resubmits for another vote. And in the interests of providing construtive criticism I'll propose -- A proposals section of the site, into which anyone with karma can commit any submissions and from which documents can be promoted by lazy concensus of all jakarta commiters. Its stylesheet will include a footer explaining the status of proposal documents(if thats possible). -- for instance? d. We have that section. It's called CVS. :) It operates exactly the way you describe. - Morgan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds them
- Original Message - From: acoliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Get together / SunOne / JakartaOne / The One that binds them On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:01:31 Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Including whiteboards, etternet-hubs, wireless, telcon/phone, coffee, thee, softdrinks c for one day (take your pick; tentative suggestion: that Tuesday). Plane tickets? :) oooh h me too me too! Throw in hotels and registration fees and I'm there dude! I don't even need registration fees. I'd much rather go to JakartaOne. :) - Morgan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?)
We could save travel money if we slept under the bar. - Original Message - From: acoliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 1:56 PM Subject: Boycott JavaOne? was Re: Re: StudioZ (was: Re: JakartaOne?) If a group were zealously opensource, a group Could publically boycott the JavaOne, hold a countersession called JakartaOne at a bar or club and a certain club owner might make a killing in selling inebriation to geeks and make a very public spit in a certain corporations eye. Hypothetically of course. It would certainly make for interesting press.. Moot for me because of my limited wealth. -Andy On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:20:48 Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would love to host JakartaOne at Studio Z. I think it would be a lot of fun. For free. * However, I do need to know the day/time/length of the event as well as what other things will be needed (chairs/tables/whatever). Unless some people here volunteers, I can look into getting some great local techno/house/trance/ambient DJ's to spin music. We do have a DSL line into the space as well as ethernet drops literally every five feet (the space was a .bomb before we moved in) and I will have an open 802.11b network available in the next week or so (as soon as the Linksys is delivered). Bring your laptops. :-) Studio Z is not walking distance from Moscone, however, it is only about a 5 minute, $4-5 taxi ride. Not a big deal. * The only requirement is that the date/times not conflict with any other events that we are putting on there. The Covalent deal also sounds cool, but I doubt they have a large dance floor and a big sound system. :-) And I can vouch for him... The space is _fantastic_... Been there, seen that, wanna get back! :) Go JON! :) Pier (for free? Where's that nice scottish spirit of yours! :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.
Congratulations to the new PMC members! We couldn't ask for a more qualified group. :) - Morgan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Thanks for voting. We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462 votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of 7x75=525 votes). None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found during the verification of the email sender/messages. The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order): Stefan Bodewig Craig McClanahan Diane Holt Conor MacNeill Geir Magnusson Jr. Costin Monolache Sam Ruby The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF board meeting. Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem. Thanks, Dw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBPHp8QjGmPZbsFAuBAQHXnAP+Jlfa5oCvFumrlYC07P27FZUL7SkJzML6 OlvkCShXJBnsvN5glDkKhzPPLVDZMSuPEXRusT7B08hxoqyzLWhe9AXV2QPx3gUI nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1 e1m8VWWhOds= =f3Ef -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
jakarta-site2 karma please
Could someone grant me karma to jakarta-site2? I'd like to post a copy of the versioning guidelines from Taglibs (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-taglibs/HOWTO-RELEASE?rev=1.8content -type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup) and Commons (http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-commons/xdocs/versioning.xml?rev=1.1; content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup) to the site, so that they can be shared by those projects and any others that wish it. - Morgan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Are 3 votes necessary for the PMC nomination? [was: Re: To jvote or not to jvote]
So, what was the answer to the question below? If we really do need two +1s for a nomination, then I have some campaigning to do! (Unless someone else wants to go ahead and +1 me, if only to shut me up. ;) - Original Message - From: Morgan Delagrange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote ARE two +1 votes necessary? That was not mentioned in the original email Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002. (Just to stave off any potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how elections are run. It's not our call.) - Original Message - From: Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange
I accept this nomination, which was originally sent to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. Thanks Rod! - Original Message - From: Waldhoff, Rodney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:15 AM Subject: PMC Nomination - Morgan Delagrange I would like to nominate Morgan Delagrange for the PMC. He's a founding member of and an active participant in jakarta-commons, is the author of some popular jakarta-taglibs tags, and has contributed a substantial amount of code, documentation and organizational support to both projects. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: To jvote or not to jvote
ARE two +1 votes necessary? That was not mentioned in the original email Announcement: JakartaPMC elections for 2002. (Just to stave off any potential debate here, the ASF-appointed administrator gets to decide how elections are run. It's not our call.) - Original Message - From: Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: RE: To jvote or not to jvote Thanks Dirk. But then, from what I can see in the general list, only Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional +1s all sent to jvote. How should this be fixed? This is what I see in general: (I am skipping those that refused the nomination.) - Ted Husted The 3rd +1 did not get to jvote. - Stefan Bodewig - Conor MacNeill Nothing went to jvote. (I think that both are still missing votes.) - Scott Sanders Only the nomination went to jvote. - Sam Ruby Nothing went to jvote. - Peter Donald Nothing went to jvote. - Paulo Gaspar Nothing went to jvote. - Morgan Delagranje Only his acceptance went to jvote. - Geir Magnusson Enough votes went to jvote. - Diane Holt Only the nomination went to jvote. - Craig McClanahan Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. - Costin Manolache Only the nomination and one vote went to jvote. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote: From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not. Why? What are the rules? See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it is clearer. What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list - and in particular those messages from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to be run in the election. Dw. T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation from the nominee being received. - Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short description about who you are, what you want to accomplish. - Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar message confirming that you are accepting the nomination - with again - some details about yourself. - PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming he or she would consent of course.) - The board volunteers handling the vote cannot be nominated. - The nomination must include the email address of the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC. Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments. I can say, however, that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to Taglibs, and to numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community. - Morgan Delagrange _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PMC Nomination - Ted Husted
I would like to nominate Ted Husted for re-election to the PMC. Ted has a strong (and active) committment to documentation, probably the most often neglected component of any project. He also was a driving force in the Commons project; it's unlikely that the Commons would have been so successful in its first year if it weren't for Ted's influence. Finally, he may have the most level head in Jakarta. That's a big plus. - Morgan Delagrange _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: problem with Apache email?
on 7/19/01 6:51 PM, Morgan Delagrange [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They are icarus and daedelus right? I just tried icarus and it was no better. But you're probably on to something, maybe something got goofed up in the transition to the new CVS server. (I didn't actually get this email in my Apache account, by the way. Had to paste it from Outlook. :( ) I know a few other folks use the SMTP server; is everyone experiencing this? - Morgan The smart thing to do is to setup a .forward file and keep the resource usage on apache.org down. Oh wait, I just posted about that like 2 days ago...sigh... -jon I probably didn't get the email. :) That's a good idea, I'll probably do that, although it's a moot point at the moment...no email to forward. I started using my Apache account, because at work we have to use Outlook 98, which is incapable (yes, incapable) of sending emails without reformatting them as HTML. Some committers are very adamant about text emails, eh Jon? - Morgan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Binaries in CVS
--- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Costin Manolache wrote: One compromise may be to use a separate CVS only for binaries, with the latest released version of each product. Users will have to check out the project cvs and the common binaries CVS. Benefits over checking in binaries in all projects: - only pristine sources in all projects ( except the binary tree ) - consistent behavior and location for the binaries for all projects using the binary tree - less duplication and space ( and download time ) - a simple way to get the latest stable release for all jars ( a cvs update will also get only what's changed, instead of requiring to download and install x different tar.gz files ) +1 Perhaps we could even get a change into ant.bat and ant.sh to -Djakarta.home=$JAKARTA_HOME. [big ol' snip] A common binary repository sounds like the way to go. There's no strict need for everbody to buy into it though. If, for some reason, a new release of a JAR breaks a particular subproject, that subproject can always check in the required version of a binary locally. Or ignore the common repository and check everything in locally, if they're dead set against the idea. To me, a common repository sounds like a lot less work for the individual subproject owners, but Jakarta members are nothing if not peculiar. Of course, there are administrative details to consider. I would be very wary of putting anything approaching a beta release in the common repository. We would need some ground rules to make sure that didn't happen. - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta PMC election results
Hi all, I have no objection to the elections, but for the benefit of the Jakarta members, could a current PMC member please list the PMC members (current and proposed) and which projects they are qualified to represent? I at least would like to know who's speaking for what project. - Morgan --- Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/7/01 8:04 AM, "Sam Ruby" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Donald: five +1's, one +0, one -1. Passes. Diane Holt: six +1's.Passes. Beyond challenge. Ted Husted: five +1's, one +0. Passes. Ceki Gülcü: seven +1's. Passes. Beyond challange. Geir Magnusson Jr.:four +1's, two +0's. Passes. Daniel F. Savarese:four +1's, two +0's. Passes. Jason van Zyl: four +1's, two +0's. Passes. +1 -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ===== Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta PMC election results
Ah, so according to the site the proposed PMC represents: Peter Donald: Avalon, Ant Diane Holt: No listing on Site, don't know her work Ted Husted: Site doesn't list Karma, but I know he at least works on Struts Ceki Gülcü: Log4J Geir Magnusson Jr.: Velocity Daniel F. Savarese: Site doesn't list Karma, probably ORO Hans Bergsten: Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his work, probably Tomcat? James Duncan Davidson: Tomcat, Ant Pierpaolo Fumagalli: Jserv, probably Tomcat? Craig McClanahan: Jserv, Struts, probably Tomcat? Sam Ruby: Site doesn't list Karma, don't know his work (other that his Chairmanship, that is :) Jon S. Stevens: JServ, ECS, Turbine Anil Vijendran: Tomcat So if you cross-reference this list against Jakarta subprojects, you get the following subproject representation: Ant 2 Avalon 1 ECS 1 James 0 Jetspeed 0 JMeter 0 Log4J 1 ORO 1 Regexp 0 Slide 0 Struts 2 Taglibs 0 Tomcat 5 Turbine 1 Velocity 1 Watchdog 1 An improvement, I guess, but still not perfect. The Apache board's compliant still seems legitimate, since we don't really know who's representing what. Maybe Sam could comment on the roles of the nominees, since I'm sure he knows what project they work on, and the site is not specific enough. --- Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/8/01 11:44 AM, "Morgan Delagrange" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have no objection to the elections, but for the benefit of the Jakarta members, could a current PMC member please list the PMC members (current and proposed) and which projects they are qualified to represent? I at least would like to know who's speaking for what project. - Morgan http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ===== Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta PMC election results
That list is perfect, Jon. Thanks! Perhaps the PMC might go as far as to designate point person(s) for each subproject? E.g. if nobody from the PMC is monitoring the dev mailing list for a particular project, they're not really in the know despite their karma. I know that those karma lists are considerably longer than the people I hear from in a typical week, which makes me fear that some are not active participants. --- Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 3/8/01 2:39 PM, "Morgan Delagrange" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if you cross-reference this list against Jakarta subprojects, you get the following subproject representation: Ah, I see what you are trying to do. Actually, it is better to just look at the avail file and get your data that way. That is about as specific as possible because it shows who has CVS write access to what. http://www.apache.org/websrc/viewcvs.cgi/CVSROOT/avail From that POV, you can see that there are ASF members and or PMC members involved with *every* Jakarta Project currently available. In reality, we should simply create another page on the website that lists things out in exact specifics. It would be something similar to what I started here: http://www.apache.org/foundation/members-projects.html As you can see, I'm involved with quite a few projects. :-) It would be nice if others picked up the balls as well. I'm getting tired. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ===== Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] Re: Code Sharing Concepts
Hear hear! I think that Taglibs is an excellent model for a library-oriented subproject. Here are some features of Taglibs (some overlap with Craig's comments) that I think would translate quite well: * individual landing pages for each taglib (essentially sub-subprojects) * standardized documentation formats in most taglibs * clearly defined divisions between tag libraries in the CVS repository * "courteous" interaction between taglib developers (i.e., I don't muck about with your taglib without asking) * lots of user interaction on the dev list esp. concerning release candidates (which neutrilizes maverick developer syndrome and reduces the necessary number of committers) * reasonable scope boundaries (e.g. the JDBC taglib doesn't do database pooling, that's what utility libraries are for!) * it's fun to work on! Although I'm not interested in being a committer on any of the other proposed library sub-subprojects at this time, I'd be happy to help out with the "Library Infrastructure" sub-subproject, if the goal is a Taglibs-like organization for the project and the site. - Morgan --- "Craig R. McClanahan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Geir Magnusson Jr." wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone chooses to duplicate a piece of code, maybe the problem is with the way the code is written and shared. I think in some cases, its bacause people aren't aware that the stuff exists. Go through the Jakarta project sites, and find the number of places that offer a separate, clean FOO tool that supports BAR. (Choose your tool and it's expected functionality). One small proto-model of "shared code" code components already exists within the Jakarta community, and might serve as a starting point for discussions -- the Jakarta Taglibs project, which is focused on creating reuseable JSP custom tag libraries. The encouraged sharing is in this case at the end developer's application level, rather than within the Jakarta community itself, but some practices we created there might be useful models to look at. Basically, developers on Taglibs agree to the following conventions and policies: * No particular concern about overlaps of functionality - different applications care about different features and might appreciate alternative approaches. * Committers essentially take ownership of the pieces they care about, and agree to offer at least some level of ongoing support. * Organize their tag library directories according to standard conventions (source, example app, documentation) and package naming hierarchies that quickly become familiar to library users. * Construct semi-autonomous releases of individual tag libraries, plus a convenient way to go grab them all. Formal versioning hasn't been an issue yet because the whole thing is pretty new, but that will need to be addressed. * Make information (essentially, the documenation associated with each tag library) available online and accessible. Having one or more FOO modules in a shared library doesn't help any more than the current situation, if I don't know about them or cannot find anything out about them. It would seem reasonable to adopt some set of conventions like this for the sorts of code modules we're discussing here. That way, people whose itch is creating shareable modules have a place to showcase their wares, and people who would rather reuse than write have a place to "shop". As long as you avoid a rule that there will be only one kind of FOO in the library, that should avoid most of the potential conflict issues. In order to make this work, someone(s) needs to step up and organize the basic infrastructure, but after that it can be fairly self-sustaining. (And maybe Sam can extend Gump to see which individual modules are being used in which projects -- having your shared code selected by some other project is a pretty good vote on it's quality, plus an indication of who you should talk to before changing APIs ;-). geir Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is Jakarta?
--- Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote: Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition. I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or not. It is evident that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the Jakarta Project. As it stands, the current mission given on the Web site is technically incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious that the ASF will require a board resolution to put things right. From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd rather expand the scope than start pruning subprojects. If you make the definition of Jakarta this restrictive Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted. The contract between the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is "charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source Java Servlet-related software for distribution at no charge to the public." Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of scope according to the current charter. As you pointed out, the Jakarta PMC has exceed its original charter. The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and presented two alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More PMCs. Some people seem to like the idea of a broader charter. Other people have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a followup to Roy's suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering Java-Apache for the out-of-scope projects makes any sense. Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the java.apache.org domain. The current Jakarta site states: The older Java Apache Project will have its projects merged into the Jakarta Project in the near future (no set date). For more information please see the announcement on that website. If this is still the case, fine. If not, we need a new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org needs to go away. Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta project to Servlet-based technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very short: But, is that a bad thing? It's too specific. See next comment. projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal with servlets in part I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately Java Servlet-related software. I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that Struts is not entirely in-scope. Much of Struts deals with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for XML parsing and database pooling, correct? Since these are not specifically servlet-related, they would have to be removed from the project. I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented charter is too inflexible. I'd rather see a charter that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's another argument). - Morgan ===== Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
