[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Peter Faraday Weller w...@gentoo.org posted 1241385973.4028.67.ca...@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive changes this last year or so. The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that way, often both sides get warnings to stop it and people do (tho this of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept to something approaching a reasonable professional level). Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass priority and sharing being worked out. Now Gentoo does seem to be at that magic 250-ish person mid-size organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn to manage at the 250-ish size we are. Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those changes are coming. =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi, I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming [..] I might consider coming back. Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one who's having those thoughts. -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Request for testing of GnuTLS 2.7.*
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote:
GnuTLS =2.7.1 doesn't contain 'libgnutls-config' and 'libgnutls-extra-config'
scripts so packages, which use them, usually fail to build.
(Sometimes `configure` scripts disable support for GnuTLS without failing.)
The list of packages depending on net-libs/gnutls is available at:
http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/misc/dindex/net-libs/gnutls
If you maintain or use a package included in this list, please check if it
can be built with =net-libs/gnutls-2.7.1.
If a package fails to build with =net-libs/gnutls-2.7.1 and it hasn't been
reported yet, please report a bug and make it block bug 253709 [1].
Add a post_src_unpack hook like the following and then emerge all the rdeps.
post_src_unpack() {
egrep -r libgnutls-(extra)?-config ${S} \
ewarn Using deprecated libgnutls-(extra)?-config
}
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Reminder for May 7
Tiziano Müller wrote: Am Montag, den 04.05.2009, 00:25 +0100 schrieb Roy Bamford: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2009.05.03 22:47, Tiziano Müller wrote: This is your friendly reminder! Same bat time (typically the 2nd 4th Thursdays at 2000 UTC / 1600 EST), same bat channel (#gentoo-council @ irc.freenode.net) ! [snip] Tiziano, The 7th is the first Thursday this month. Has there been a change to the meeting dates ? We usually have the meeting every two weeks, so the next meeting would be the next Thursday. Unless someone has objections I'd propose to hold the meeting then. I guess I have to change the template a little :) Isn't it second and fourth Thursday? Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 Markos Chandras hwoar...@gentoo.org wrote: On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi, I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming [..] I might consider coming back. Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one who's having those thoughts. I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are working to fix them. -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org Regards, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) fmc...@gentoo.org Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
On Sun, 3 May 2009 18:51:59 -0400 Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: Peter Faraday Weller w...@gentoo.org posted 1241385973.4028.67.ca...@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive changes this last year or so. For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real bank account. The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that way, often both sides get warnings to stop it and people do (tho this of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept to something approaching a reasonable professional level). Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass priority and sharing being worked out. Now Gentoo does seem to be at that magic 250-ish person mid-size organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn to manage at the 250-ish size we are. Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those changes are coming. =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman Regards, Probably should not have responded, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) fmc...@gentoo.org Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Reminder for May 7
On Mon, May 04, 2009 at 02:06:47PM +0300, Petteri R??ty wrote: Isn't it second and fourth Thursday? Regards, Petteri That's an oversimplification. That varies because of when we have some holidays and skip meetings, throughing the schedule off. It's easiest to remember it as every other thursday. Thomas -- - Thomas Anderson Gentoo Developer / Areas of responsibility: AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council -
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote: On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 [..] I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are working to fix them. I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on features :\ -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.gr signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Reminder for May 7
On 08:34 Mon 04 May , Thomas Anderson wrote: On Mon, May 04, 2009 at 02:06:47PM +0300, Petteri R??ty wrote: Isn't it second and fourth Thursday? Regards, Petteri That's an oversimplification. That varies because of when we have some holidays and skip meetings, throughing the schedule off. It's easiest to remember it as every other thursday. As a rule, it is the 2nd and 4th Thursday of each month. This is announced in every meeting email. Of course there are occasional exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the rule. I don't see why this would be one because I haven't heard anything about next week being bad. -- Thanks, Donnie Donnie Berkholz Developer, Gentoo Linux Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com pgpbKkCr9mxIL.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring
Ferris McCormick fmc...@gentoo.org posted 20090504114734.30329...@anaconda.krait.us, excerpted below, on Mon, 04 May 2009 11:47:34 +: For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real bank account. I should have stated so directly, but FWIW I agree. I'm on the NFP list as I have been since 2004 (when I started with Gentoo), so I know the general status. I did say I thought that was the low point and that Gentoo had turned the corner since then, but given that I DID list it as a low point, it would have been only proper to specifically mention that I think it has come back from the brink (which it was over, but you guys pulled it back! =:^) too. So thanks for pointing that out, and thanks too, to you and the other foundation folks, for all the time and effort you've put into pulling it back from over the brink, as you have. That's no small thing, even if by original design the foundation is separated enough from the day-to-day and technical Gentoo side that it seldom comes up here or in most other Gentoo discussions, and few enough even know about it, let alone stop to say thanks once in awhile. It's certainly not every dev (or user, as I am) that either has the skills for that sort of thing, or even cares about it, so the least we can do is give you a round of thanks for taking on what most of us would prefer not even to have to think about at all. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
Peter Faraday Weller wrote: On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. Hi, am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time. Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :) I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me (yeah the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO. It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet that will fix everything? Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? I'm quite sure it won't fix the lack of focus. Which I somewhat feel too, but that may be just from the fact that I currently lack time (not motivation though, that seems almost inversely proportional :) ) for Gentoo. If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves. Vlastimil
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Reminder for May 7
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2009.05.04 10:20, Tiziano Müller wrote: [snip] We usually have the meeting every two weeks, so the next meeting would be the next Thursday. Unless someone has objections I'd propose to hold the meeting then. I guess I have to change the template a little :) -- Tiziano Müller Gentoo Linux Developer, Council Member Areas of responsibility: Samba, PostgreSQL, CPP, Python, sysadmin, GLEP Editor E-Mail : dev-z...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : F327 283A E769 2E36 18D5 4DE2 1B05 6A63 AE9C 1E30 Tiziano, Every two weeks works 12 weeks out of 13 because months run in a 4,4,5 week cycle. That is, once every three months, there is three weeks between meetings. Is the council changing from meeting on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month to meetings every two weeks? The two are not quite the same. - -- Regards, Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods treecleaners trustees -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkn/BEcACgkQTE4/y7nJvatKZwCdHz916Uh2Tz0IRPMkQ0fQ2NvL z3cAoJKf1daMoriN09IXFMOHkin1vXfu =0Njd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-commits] gentoo-x86 commit in mail-mta/courier: ChangeLog courier-0.61.2.ebuild
S=${WORKDIR}/${P}
You don't need to set this, it's the default.
filter-flags '-fomit-frame-pointer'
filter-flags in global scope? You should put that in
src_unpack/src_prepare.
--
-
Thomas Anderson
Gentoo Developer
/
Areas of responsibility:
AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council
-
pgpZISbaDHSSC.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday 04 May 2009 18:54:09 Vlastimil Babka wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree needs to be sorted out: we have 16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. Hi, am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time. Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :) I dont think so. Centralized or distributed VCS does not have to do anything about the hierarchical structure of Gentoo. I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me Depends of course on how each team/dev uses the overlay. Some of us use the overlays as testing places which is much better than pushing ebuilds directly to tree without extensive testing :) (yeah the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO. +1 It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet that will fix everything? Certainly it will help development a lot. Take a look on git overlays ( qting- edge,kde-testing etc ). The commit and bugfix rates are incredible because the VCS is amazingly fast. Using cvs, you need at least 2' for a simple commit of a single ebuild. Using git you can push 300 ebuilds at the same time. Imaging the difference... Git is an extra motivation ( at least for me :/ ) Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need people. Then we can concentrate on features :) If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves. Any ideas? -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Mon, 4 May 2009 19:36:04 +0300 Markos Chandras hwoar...@gentoo.org wrote: Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need people. Then we can concentrate on features :) As it happens, a lot of the features that go into EAPIs are designed to help with that. They make it easier to write good ebuilds (and harder to get away with certain QA abuses by accident), possible to write ebuilds that are less annoying and possible to write ebuilds that cover things that could not previously be covered. And, looking at it the other way, Gentoo has lost a lot of good people because they weren't prepared to put up with EAPI stagnation. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
Markos Chandras wrote: I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on features :\ While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved. The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't simply tell people close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff later. We can certainly encourage people to do this, but there will ALWAYS be more maintenance items and I think we'll do better to keep Gentoo exciting and dynamic and try to attract more help, and then there will be more bodies around to take care of the grind of bugs. Essentially features are what keeps a significant portion of the current manpower motivated. Now, there are lots of people around who actually like doing maintenance and caring for specific packages, and we should certainly try to find more people like this. However, those who would rather be implementing new EAPIs in Portage/Paludis/Pkgcore/whatever won't necessarily work on arch bugs just because there is a need for this. I think the best we can do is try to highlight the issues so that those who are interested are aware of them and can sign up to help. I'd also love to see the council and trustees actively looking for solutions to these problems, but it can't be the only issue on the agenda. I've never been big on the whole Gentoo is dying meme. All people and organizations are dying - we're all born dying. Death is just the natural state of the universe in the absence of life. Even if Gentoo were perfect and full of activity we would have people leaving for various reasons - the key is to have people coming in to replace and even surpass those who leave. Gentoo has a LOT to offer the linux community - and if anything I'd say the level of innovation in Gentoo (and related projects) has been trending upwards in recent months.
Re: [gentoo-dev] license issue with fretsonfire
Arun Raghavan wrote: As for the songs, does it make sense to put that in a separate package that the code package depends on? The package can have the restrictive license it is distributed under and RESTRICT=mirror bindist. That was my first thought as well - just split out the songs and restrict mirroring. This also works well if more open community-based songs come out - just add packages for them.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday 04 May 2009 21:24:11 Richard Freeman wrote: Markos Chandras wrote: I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on features :\ While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved. The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't simply tell people close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff later. Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in order to survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some people consider as anarchy -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
On Monday 04 May 2009 20:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? This is actually a very interesting idea -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)
Mario Fetka schrieb: On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-) So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new developer. -- Thomas Sachau Gentoo Linux Developer signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
Am Montag, den 04.05.2009, 15:35 +0300 schrieb Markos Chandras: On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote: On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 [..] I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are working to fix them. I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on features :\ The point of most features is to make maintenance easier and reduce breakages at user-side which hopefully reduces the amount of bugs reported because of such breakages and keep our users happy and happy users are more likely to contribute or become devs when they see some progress. But you're right, we have to find the balance somehow... -- Tiziano Müller Gentoo Linux Developer, Council Member Areas of responsibility: Samba, PostgreSQL, CPP, Python, sysadmin, GLEP Editor E-Mail : dev-z...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : F327 283A E769 2E36 18D5 4DE2 1B05 6A63 AE9C 1E30 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council Reminder for May 14
Am Montag, den 04.05.2009, 07:50 -0700 schrieb Donnie Berkholz: On 08:34 Mon 04 May , Thomas Anderson wrote: On Mon, May 04, 2009 at 02:06:47PM +0300, Petteri R??ty wrote: Isn't it second and fourth Thursday? Regards, Petteri That's an oversimplification. That varies because of when we have some holidays and skip meetings, throughing the schedule off. It's easiest to remember it as every other thursday. As a rule, it is the 2nd and 4th Thursday of each month. This is announced in every meeting email. Of course there are occasional exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the rule. I don't see why this would be one because I haven't heard anything about next week being bad. Well then, let it be May 14 and consider this an early agenda post :) -- Tiziano Müller Gentoo Linux Developer, Council Member Areas of responsibility: Samba, PostgreSQL, CPP, Python, sysadmin, GLEP Editor E-Mail : dev-z...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : F327 283A E769 2E36 18D5 4DE2 1B05 6A63 AE9C 1E30 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Thomas Sachau wrote: Mario Fetka schrieb: On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-) So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new developer. I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
On Monday 04 May 2009 23:47:08 George Prowse wrote: Thomas Sachau wrote: Mario Fetka schrieb: On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-) So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new developer. I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. All those things are PR related. Unfortunately Gentoo does not have any PR activity ( ok we have some via Gentoo Planet/Universe ) . We used to have GMN but that died a long time ago. Establishing a proper and active PR team is something that we should consider as a high priority as well :/ -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] Google SoC @ Gentoo - Universal Select Tool
Gentoo Dev's,
My name is Sérgio Almeida, I am Portuguese and I am a student for this
year's Google SoC coding the Universal Select Tool project for Gentoo
being Sébastien Fabbro (bicatali) my mentor.
Abstract:
Universal Select Tool is an utility to manage system configuration.
This tool is similar to the unmaintained eselect utility of Gentoo or
Exherbo's eclectic. The idea is to create a tool that manages both
system settings and user settings with profile creation possibilities.
The utility will use mostly concepts from modules, softenv, and
both eselect and eclectic.
My initial proposal does not get in-depth with implementation details
and I need to make some decisions as soon as possible. Implementation
language will be python as it is easy to maintain, easy to code and
faster and more flexible than bash. See attachment for more details.
Besides introducing myself, the purpose of this e-mail is a
call-to-ideas to all Gentoo developers, mainly all eselect-* and
*-config developers.
Here are the main interest ideas:
* keep eselect structure of modules - actions
* symlinking, environment and aliases actions can consist of something
like:
# module moo comments
description Example Module description
version Example Module Version
author m...@farm.moo
# action system moo
description Moo Action Description
symlink regexp regexp
env regexp regexp
alias regexp regexp
# end moo
These should get the job done for most of the modules and opens the door
to automatic module creation prior to a successful emerge (if some USE
flag set)
* Actions that consist of code blocks that support any scripting
language (what about binaries?) to do more complex actions (full module
example):
# module moo comments
description Example Module description
version Example Module Version
author m...@farm.moo
# action user moo
description Example Module will moo for any user
type runnable
runner /bin/bash
# file moo.bash
#!/bin/bash
do_moo() {
echo This is the Example Module mooing
}
do_moo()
# end moo.bash
# end moo
* actions can be run system-wide and per-user:
# action user moo
# action system moo
* automatic module loading and profile management can be managed by some
env.d python scripts that are user-aware and follow some database
I've been given this difficult task of unifying all of these tools
together and as you all can understand, I won't be having the time to
read through all eselect-* modules and *-config utilities code.
Please drop me a line here or at freenode if you have anything to add to
these ideas or have any further ideas that can help me on this project.
Thank you all in advance.
Cheers,
Sérgio Almeida
mephx @ freenode
Universal Select Tool
*Abstract
Universal Select Tool is an utility to manage system configuration.
This tool is similar to the unmaintained eselect utility of Gentoo or
Exherbo's eclectic. The idea is to create a tool that manages both
system settings and user settings with profile creation possibilities.
The utility will use mostly concepts from modules, softenv, and
both eselect and eclectic.
*Objective
The objective of this project is to create a unified configuration
utility for gentoo. Why this new tool and not eselect? Gentoo has a
set of configuration utilities (eselect-* *-config) that work with
global environment settings regarding the system and therefore needed
to be contradicted by hand by users to fulfill their need to change
it's own defaults. This is a common problem within clusters,
shared-servers, etc, basically all multi-user, multi-profile,
multi-use environments. Creating this utility makes environment
profiles, slots, virtuals and multi-implementations easier to manage,
create and manipulate by developers, sysadmins and users. The current
available solutions do not work this way and therefore enlarging the
gap between configuration unification, profiling and usability.
*General Ideas
Some modules that this project wants to unite do much more than just
update environment variables. Further discussion should be done with
all participants in such projects to check if a general tool can be
created and if not, what can be split as a module and what can not.
Modules will need to be thought in a way that no further *-config and
eselect-* utilities need to exist anymore. These utilities will be
replaced by a module of it's own that allows the universal select tool
to manipulate all available configuration that is specified by the
module.
Modules will not only specify to the universal select tool what can be
changed but also how to make those changes.
Modules will be indexed in it's own database file for faster
searching, switching, and profile creation and managing. This database
will need to be updated by
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
George Prowse wrote: I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that user should not ask and should wait to be asking. I'm not sure most devs are looking to users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy. Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed like it looks like. An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very positive and I would be glad to help with that. Regards, Mounir
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Mounir Lamouri wrote: George Prowse wrote: I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that user should not ask and should wait to be asking. I'm not sure most devs are looking to users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy. Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed like it looks like. An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very positive and I would be glad to help with that. Regards, Mounir I'm always willing to help also. I have plenty of time on my hands. First you need a date, then you need some devs who will be at their computers then you can go ape. Message everyone under the sun that Gentoo is going on a recruitment drive on from $date and there will be lots of friendly people in $location, $location and $location to show people what is required. Of course it would be easier if we had a list from Gentoo where help is needed most and we could broadcast for people in those areas. We could even write a web page where people added their names and details as a kind of pre-signup to test the water and see how many people we might get. Keep the names visible because that might create extra PR. Gentoo is looking for linux personnel and also those familiar with the distribution itself. What is required is either linux experience or experience with Gentoo, knowlege of bash and a helpful, happy attitude... If it were successful then a large group of mentors would be needed.
Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)
Hi, 2009/5/4 Thomas Sachau to...@gentoo.org [snip] For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. I think these are really good advise but I think we could improve the way users can help concerning maintainer-needed packages. dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black hole. For instance, the last bugday I tried to close some bugs. Some one them were assigned to maintainer-needed@, so I said on #gentoo-bugs that I've updated those bugs. Sometimes, a dev was watching and the issue was closed, but for others I have still no comments (Ok. I'm too impatient, but I'm not really confident. But some devs can still surprise me ;-) ) I fully understand that looking at this type of bug is hard and boring. On the other hand, I know some devs who are willing to help and check patches. Since I don't think it would be a good practise to savagely CC' them, I propose to add a bug-with-patch alias or something like that. Cheers, -- Olivier Huber
Re: [gentoo-dev] Google SoC @ Gentoo - Universal Select Tool
2009/5/4 Sérgio Almeida meph...@gmail.com: Please drop me a line here or at freenode if you have anything to add All I have to add is thanks a lot. I wished other SoC students would also introduce themselves and their project on their list. Denis.
Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring)
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Olivier Huber oli.hu...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] dirtyepic made a funny entry on his blog [1] and darkside tried also to do something [2], but it seems to me that this alias is a black [snip] You forgot the references :) Don't postpone putting them till the end! You *will* forget them! Add them when you write the [$num]s ;) -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan
