Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Alexander Z]

on January 23. I rest my case.
> >> >
> >> > "No its not."
> >> >
> >> > Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
> >> > Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who
> >> > visited
> >> > Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own
> >> > opinion?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> >> >> The
> >> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from
> this
> >> >> change."
> >> >> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is
> sinificantly
> >> >> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> >> >> modifications.
> >> >>
> >> >> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> >> servers."
> >> >> No its not.
> >> >>
> >> >> -- Original Message --
> >> >> From: "Robert Paulson" 
> >> >> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
> >> >> 
> >> >> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
> >> >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
> >> >> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
> >> >> punishing
> >> >> the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
> >> >>
> >> >> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> >> >> The
> >> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from
> this
> >> >> change.
> >> >>
> >> >> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> >> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this
> >> >> change
> >> >> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
> >> >> because
> >> >> they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official servers
> >> >> they
> >> >> would also be in the top 20.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
> >> >>
> >> >> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> >> >> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at
> Valve
> >> >> came
> >> >> to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
> >> >> on TF2
> >> >> with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or
> not
> >> >>> QP
> >> >>> should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot
> of
> >> >>> issues
> >> >>> and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
> >> >>> Though
> >> >>> some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
> >> >>> right
> >> >>> direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
> >> >>> need to
> >> >>> be addressed and improved upon.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
> >> >>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no
> >> >>> offense)
> >> >>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change
> >> >>> needed to
> >> >>> make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for
> >> >>> server
> >> >>> ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the
> issues
> >> >>> that
> >> >>> have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and does
> >> >

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Phillip Vector]

unity is
> completely
> > unnecessary."
> >
> > How are you forced? Does Valve require you to run a server? Do you have
> to
> > pay a fee to Valve if you don't get the quickplay people?
> >
> > Back before quickplay, we used to build up communities. Have people
> really
> > lost the ability to do that anymore?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Valentin G. 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is
> sinificantly
> >> > improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> >> > modifications."
> >>
> >> No one is lamenting the fact that Valve tries to remove these abusive
> >> practices from the Quickplay system, the issue is that Valve servers
> >> are now the default.
> >> Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before,
> >> this additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is
> >> completely unnecessary.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Robert Paulson  >
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
> >> >
> >> > The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
> >> >
> >> > "No its not."
> >> >
> >> > Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
> >> > Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who
> >> > visited
> >> > Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own
> >> > opinion?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> >> >> The
> >> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from
> this
> >> >> change."
> >> >> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is
> sinificantly
> >> >> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> >> >> modifications.
> >> >>
> >> >> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> >> servers."
> >> >> No its not.
> >> >>
> >> >> -- Original Message --
> >> >> From: "Robert Paulson" 
> >> >> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
> >> >> 
> >> >> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
> >> >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
> >> >> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
> >> >> punishing
> >> >> the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
> >> >>
> >> >> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> >> >> The
> >> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from
> this
> >> >> change.
> >> >>
> >> >> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> >> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this
> >> >> change
> >> >> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
> >> >> because
> >> >> they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official servers
> >> >> they
> >> >> would also be in the top 20.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
> >> >>
> >> >> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> >> >> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at
> Valve
> >> >> came
> >> >> to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
> >> >> on TF2
> >> >> with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> >>>
&

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[1nsane]

Again you have no idea what you are talking about. Apart from not having
flash support up until the HTML motd renderer update there were very few
(if any) "pay to win" servers. Saigns was probably the only one. And I
don't know if it was always pay to win.

Sourcemod was very basic and lacked many of the plugins you see today. The
admin plugins of the time Mani Admin/Beetlesmod and the like were plugins
focused on administration and not providing TF2 specific pay to win
benefits. So "pay to win" either didn't exist or was private and on VERY
few servers.

Remember this was 6 years ago and yet you are acting like it was exactly
the same as it is today.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Phillip Vector wrote:

> Fine then. They were losing players and losing players means they didn't
> have people to pay to win.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:30 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Not because it was a bad idea, but because when faced with losing
>> revenue from ads (HTML ads) and pay to win slots, the custom server people
>> cheated and didn't follow the rules."
>>
>> Ads? What?  There were no ads back then. HTML motd had no flash support
>> and no javascript support either. Clearly you have no idea what you are
>> talking about.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You also claim..
>>>
>>>
>>> "There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>>> came to their senses and removed it."
>>>
>>> What you forget (or more likely, decided not to mention) is that the
>>> reason they removed it was because several custom servers cheated their way
>>> out of the custom tab and onto the main tab. Not because it was a bad idea,
>>> but because when faced with losing revenue from ads (HTML ads) and pay to
>>> win slots, the custom server people cheated and didn't follow the rules.
>>>
>>> Also, back in Nov 1, 2011 at 7:40 PM, you said on this very list...
>>>
>>> "To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
>>> server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
>>> function and adding either of these 2 features.
>>>
>>> 1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers."
>>>
>>> So they followed your suggestion. Why are you now complaining? What
>>> happened to you?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robert Paulson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>>>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>>>> modifications."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>>>
>>>> The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>>>>
>>>> "No its not."
>>>>
>>>> Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
>>>> Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
>>>> Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a
>>>>> mistake. The player experience was not improved by any significant amount
>>>>> from this change."
>>>>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>>>>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>>>>> modifications.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>>>>> servers."
>>>>> No its not.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>>>>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>>>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>>>>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>>>&

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Supreet]

First and foremost, no disrespect intended but you should do more research.
In-game browser does support Flash. MOTDgd solely runs on Flash and Pinion
runs 60% of their ads on Flash approximately. Also, the in-game browser
supports JavaScript and limited HTML5 features. It borrows WebKit which was
last used in Chrome 18 then discontinued.

Second of all, clear the wax in your ears before you get this. BACK in the
day (Yes, I've been running servers since CS 1.6), there was no such thing
as QuickPlay so everyone was FORCED to use the server browser. Its NOT THE
SAME THING when QuickPlay is available and communities with a strong
regulars base get more QuickPlay advantage over "the new guy" who just
started.

Third of all, no one is forcing us or paying us to run these servers but we
do it out of the love for the game and making a great environment for
players.

LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE IN DEFENSE TO YOUR PINION ARGUMENT.

We used to pay $69 a month for a dedicated server and we never ran ads
until we started getting DDoSd on a regular basis and had to ditch the host
for a DDoS protected host which don't come cheap. The bill went from $69 to
$250 for a protected box that was less powerful.

You might ask why you were running a really powerful server? Because we
hosted our own website, HLStats and Sourcebans. Our community did Unusual
Hat Giveaways every month and still does for highest ranking HLStats player
- There's your "community building" and "encouraging competition" act. We
put on Pinion to cover these high costs.

OKAY NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO THIS. STOP COMPLAINING! You say?

We do this WHY (Open your ears Valve, its your cue)? BECAUSE A LARGE
MAJORITY OF THE TF2 POPULATION WHO VISITED OUR SERVERS ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT!

FYI, the CAPS don't imply me yelling or being angry. I don't like reading
long boring paragraphs so I decided to make it easier for you to see the
emphasis of my message.
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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Valentin G.]

> How are you forced? Does Valve require you to run a server? Do you have to 
> pay a fee to Valve if you don't get the quickplay people?

I really appreciate the smartass reply, but not running a server at
all does not equal a "quickplay server". Opting out of quickplay is
also not a "quickplay server". I have explicitly stated that
*quickplay servers* are forced to be more vanilla than ever.

> Back before quickplay, we used to build up communities. Have people really 
> lost the ability to do that anymore?

Brilliant observation. Before Quickplay even existed you used to build
communities, when the situation was *completely* different. Quickplay
is now the most prominent option to play the game. New players are
explicitly encouraged to use quickplay to join servers. This system
now siphons almost all players to Valve servers. Do you really think
we would be complaining if the vast majority of players were still
opting to use the server browser? Many simply don't. A huge part of
the existing and new playerbase uses quickplay, that's a fact. How are
people supposed to build a community when a significant fraction of
the playerbase is not even available to find your server?

I'm not complaining because of my own situation right now. While this
change has noticeably hit us, we managed to build a solid regular
playerbase before this change. But I'm not ignorant, and I see how
this will affect all of us in the long run.

I know people love to go on about how "no one forces you to use
quickplay", "build your community" and whatnot. Yes, technically no
one is forced to use quickplay. But Valve has built it up to be a
necessity for many of us. No community building without traffic.

> Fine then. They were losing players and losing players means they didn't have 
> people to pay to win.

You are generalizing to a point where it physically hurts. I wasn't
around back then, but I can just see how people are eager to escape a
system that just hides their server from vitally important traffic.
There are custom experiences that players actually enjoy, that are far
from abusive and actually enhance the gameplay. If people can't find
this experience without going out of their way to find it (remember
that many don't even know they want this experience before they tried
it), it's futile to even provide it. That's the problem.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Phillip Vector  
wrote:
> "Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before, this
> additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is completely
> unnecessary."
>
> How are you forced? Does Valve require you to run a server? Do you have to
> pay a fee to Valve if you don't get the quickplay people?
>
> Back before quickplay, we used to build up communities. Have people really
> lost the ability to do that anymore?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Valentin G.  wrote:
>>
>> > "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> > improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> > modifications."
>>
>> No one is lamenting the fact that Valve tries to remove these abusive
>> practices from the Quickplay system, the issue is that Valve servers
>> are now the default.
>> Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before,
>> this additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is
>> completely unnecessary.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>> >
>> > The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>> >
>> > "No its not."
>> >
>> > Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
>> > Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who
>> > visited
>> > Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own
>> > opinion?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>> >> The
>> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> >> change."
>> >> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> >> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> >> modifications.
>> >>
>> >> "It was already proved the community experience is super

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Michelle]

"-MY- TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake."
Instead of "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a 
mistake."

I for one love the quickplay vanilla servers. And the pick your official server 
feature is great so I don't get stuck in a high ping match. And if I want to 
poke around the community servers and deal with pinion buy here mandatory 
donations just to find the one new game mode then I know where to go.

Why not have 3 buttons "Play now random official vanilla" "Serverlist" "Play 
now random Community/FUnMoDe".

And for all the ddos attacks, have any of you tried contacting your host? I see 
a ton of what they do by defualt, or "u shuld try this" but has anyone 
contacted the actual host as it's happening?

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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Phillip Vector]

Fine then. They were losing players and losing players means they didn't
have people to pay to win.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:30 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Not because it was a bad idea, but because when faced with losing revenue
> from ads (HTML ads) and pay to win slots, the custom server people cheated
> and didn't follow the rules."
>
> Ads? What?  There were no ads back then. HTML motd had no flash support
> and no javascript support either. Clearly you have no idea what you are
> talking about.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Phillip Vector 
> wrote:
>
>> You also claim..
>>
>>
>> "There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>> came to their senses and removed it."
>>
>> What you forget (or more likely, decided not to mention) is that the
>> reason they removed it was because several custom servers cheated their way
>> out of the custom tab and onto the main tab. Not because it was a bad idea,
>> but because when faced with losing revenue from ads (HTML ads) and pay to
>> win slots, the custom server people cheated and didn't follow the rules.
>>
>> Also, back in Nov 1, 2011 at 7:40 PM, you said on this very list...
>>
>> "To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
>> server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
>> function and adding either of these 2 features.
>>
>> 1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers."
>>
>> So they followed your suggestion. Why are you now complaining? What
>> happened to you?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:
>>
>>> "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>>> modifications."
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>>
>>> The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>>>
>>> "No its not."
>>>
>>> Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
>>> Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
>>> Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>>>
>>>>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>>>> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>>>> change."
>>>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>>>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>>>> modifications.
>>>>
>>>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>>>> servers."
>>>> No its not.
>>>>
>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>>>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>>>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>>>> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
>>>> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>>>>
>>>> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>>>> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>>>> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
>>>> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
>>>> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
>>>> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>>>>
>>>> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>>>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>>>> 

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[1nsane]

"Not because it was a bad idea, but because when faced with losing revenue
from ads (HTML ads) and pay to win slots, the custom server people cheated
and didn't follow the rules."

Ads? What?  There were no ads back then. HTML motd had no flash support and
no javascript support either. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking
about.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Phillip Vector wrote:

> You also claim..
>
>
> "There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
> came to their senses and removed it."
>
> What you forget (or more likely, decided not to mention) is that the
> reason they removed it was because several custom servers cheated their way
> out of the custom tab and onto the main tab. Not because it was a bad idea,
> but because when faced with losing revenue from ads (HTML ads) and pay to
> win slots, the custom server people cheated and didn't follow the rules.
>
> Also, back in Nov 1, 2011 at 7:40 PM, you said on this very list...
>
> "To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
> server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
> function and adding either of these 2 features.
>
> 1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers."
>
> So they followed your suggestion. Why are you now complaining? What
> happened to you?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> modifications."
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>>
>> "No its not."
>>
>> Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
>> Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
>> Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>>> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>>> change."
>>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>>> modifications.
>>>
>>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>>> servers."
>>> No its not.
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>>
>>>
>>>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>>> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
>>> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>>>
>>> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
>>> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>>> change.
>>>
>>> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>>> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
>>> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
>>> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
>>> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>>>
>>> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>>>
>>> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>>> came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
>>> on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato <
>>> silenciodelg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
>>>> QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
>>>> issues and became the center of 

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Phillip Vector]

"Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before, this
additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is completely
unnecessary."

How are you forced? Does Valve require you to run a server? Do you have to
pay a fee to Valve if you don't get the quickplay people?

Back before quickplay, we used to build up communities. Have people really
lost the ability to do that anymore?


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Valentin G.  wrote:

> > "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> > improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> > modifications."
>
> No one is lamenting the fact that Valve tries to remove these abusive
> practices from the Quickplay system, the issue is that Valve servers
> are now the default.
> Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before,
> this additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is
> completely unnecessary.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
> >
> > The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
> >
> > "No its not."
> >
> > Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
> > Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
> > Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own
> opinion?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
> >>
> >> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> The
> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> >> change."
> >> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> >> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> >> modifications.
> >>
> >> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> servers."
> >> No its not.
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Robert Paulson" 
> >> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
> >> 
> >> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
> >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
> >>
> >>
> >> How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
> >> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
> punishing
> >> the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
> >>
> >> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
> >> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> >> change.
> >>
> >> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> >> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this
> change
> >> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
> because
> >> they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official servers
> they
> >> would also be in the top 20.
> >>
> >> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
> >>
> >> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> >> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
> came
> >> to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
> on TF2
> >> with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
> QP
> >>> should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
> issues
> >>> and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
> Though
> >>> some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
> right
> >>> direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
> need to
> >>> be addressed and improved upon.
> >>>
> >>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
> >>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no
> offense)
> >>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change
> needed to
> >>> make Quickplay a benef

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Valentin G.]

> "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> modifications."

No one is lamenting the fact that Valve tries to remove these abusive
practices from the Quickplay system, the issue is that Valve servers
are now the default.
Quickplay Servers are now forced to be more vanilla than ever before,
this additional punishment for the entire server hosting community is
completely unnecessary.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:01 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>
> "No its not."
>
> Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
> Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
> Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>>
>> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
>> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change."
>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> modifications.
>>
>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers."
>> No its not.
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list"
>> 
>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>
>>
>> How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is punishing
>> the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>>
>> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
>> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change.
>>
>> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
>> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers because
>> they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official servers they
>> would also be in the top 20.
>>
>> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>>
>> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve came
>> to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working on TF2
>> with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not QP
>>> should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of issues
>>> and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011. Though
>>> some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the right
>>> direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that need to
>>> be addressed and improved upon.
>>>
>>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
>>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense)
>>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed to
>>> make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for server
>>> ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the issues that
>>> have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and does not
>>> have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be specifically
>>> addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that is based on an
>>> idea that we as server owners deserve players in our servers, which is the
>>> wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the players, we have to be
>>> fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not they will be placed in
>>> our servers. We have to show that, as a community, we are worthy of their
>>> presence and a worthwhile experience to take the time to be a part of, not
>>> the other way around. These days, we seem more like enemies to players than
>>> friends/fellow players, given these recen

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Phillip Vector]

You also claim..

"There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
came to their senses and removed it."

What you forget (or more likely, decided not to mention) is that the reason
they removed it was because several custom servers cheated their way out of
the custom tab and onto the main tab. Not because it was a bad idea, but
because when faced with losing revenue from ads (HTML ads) and pay to win
slots, the custom server people cheated and didn't follow the rules.

Also, back in Nov 1, 2011 at 7:40 PM, you said on this very list...

"To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
function and adding either of these 2 features.

1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers."

So they followed your suggestion. Why are you now complaining? What
happened to you?



On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:

> "Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> modifications."
>
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.
>
> "No its not."
>
> Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
> Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
> Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>
>>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change."
>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> modifications.
>>
>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers."
>> No its not.
>>
>> ------ Original Message --
>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>
>>
>>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
>> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>>
>> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
>> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change.
>>
>> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
>> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
>> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
>> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>>
>> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>>
>> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>> came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
>> on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato <
>> silenciodelg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
>>> QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
>>> issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
>>> Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
>>> right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
>>> need to be addressed and improved upon.
>>>
>>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
>>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense)
>>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed
>>> to make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for
>>> server ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the
>>> issues that have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and
>>> doe

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Derek Howard]

But it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while
mouthing 'look over there'.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Phillip Vector wrote:

> "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake."
>
> *Correlation does not imply causation*
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:
>
>>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
>> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change."
>> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
>> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
>> modifications.
>>
>> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers."
>> No its not.
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Robert Paulson" 
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>>
>>
>>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
>> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
>> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>>
>> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
>> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
>> change.
>>
>> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
>> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
>> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
>> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
>> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>>
>> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>>
>> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
>> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
>> came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
>> on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato <
>> silenciodelg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
>>> QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
>>> issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
>>> Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
>>> right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
>>> need to be addressed and improved upon.
>>>
>>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
>>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense)
>>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed
>>> to make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for
>>> server ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the
>>> issues that have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and
>>> does not have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be
>>> specifically addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that
>>> is based on an idea that we as server owners deserve players in our
>>> servers, which is the wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the
>>> players, we have to be fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not
>>> they will be placed in our servers. We have to show that, as a community,
>>> we are worthy of their presence and a worthwhile experience to take the
>>> time to be a part of, not the other way around. These days, we seem more
>>> like enemies to players than friends/fellow players, given these
>>> recent/past developments regarding the community servers.
>>>
>>> We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to put
>>> up servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their own now.
>>> However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would have done it
>>> back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they allowed us (and still
>>> allow us) to use the functionality, giving us every opportunity to prove
>>> that we could use it responsibly and in the best interest of the player.
>>> Clearly, there were a few who could not do that and thu

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Phillip Vector]

"TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake."

*Correlation does not imply causation*


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:

>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> change."
> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> modifications.
>
> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> servers."
> No its not.
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Paulson" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>
>
>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>
> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> change.
>
> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>
> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>
> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
> came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
> on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato <
> silenciodelg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
>> QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
>> issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
>> Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
>> right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
>> need to be addressed and improved upon.
>>
>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense)
>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed
>> to make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for
>> server ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the
>> issues that have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and
>> does not have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be
>> specifically addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that
>> is based on an idea that we as server owners deserve players in our
>> servers, which is the wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the
>> players, we have to be fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not
>> they will be placed in our servers. We have to show that, as a community,
>> we are worthy of their presence and a worthwhile experience to take the
>> time to be a part of, not the other way around. These days, we seem more
>> like enemies to players than friends/fellow players, given these
>> recent/past developments regarding the community servers.
>>
>> We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to put
>> up servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their own now.
>> However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would have done it
>> back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they allowed us (and still
>> allow us) to use the functionality, giving us every opportunity to prove
>> that we could use it responsibly and in the best interest of the player.
>> Clearly, there were a few who could not do that and thus we were all
>> punished. While, in my opinion, Quickplay was not entirely thought all the
>> way through and I know I and many others have their own opinions about this
>> subject, it does not account for the fact that we as a community were
>> unable, and perhaps unwilling, to police ourselves well enough to ensure we
>> used this functionality responsibly to avoid Valve stepping in and taking
>> the measures it has. Arguably, that isn't our job to police oth

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Robert Paulson]

"Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
modifications."

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

The change happened on January 23. I rest my case.

"No its not."

Gametracker stats clearly proves this. I didn't take a screenshot of
Gametracker before this change but I am sure most people here who visited
Gametracker can vouch for me. Where's your proof besides your own opinion?


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM,  wrote:

>  "TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake.
> The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> change."
> Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly
> improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win
> modifications.
>
> "It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> servers."
> No its not.
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Paulson" 
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" <
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development
>
>
>  How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
> exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
> punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.
>
> TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
> player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
> change.
>
> It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
> servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
> and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
> because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
> servers they would also be in the top 20.
>
> http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.
>
> There was another situation like this long before quickplay where
> community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve
> came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working
> on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato <
> silenciodelg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not
>> QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
>> issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
>> Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
>> right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
>> need to be addressed and improved upon.
>>
>> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to
>> benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense)
>> seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed
>> to make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for
>> server ops and the community at large. It does not address many of the
>> issues that have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and
>> does not have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be
>> specifically addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that
>> is based on an idea that we as server owners deserve players in our
>> servers, which is the wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the
>> players, we have to be fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not
>> they will be placed in our servers. We have to show that, as a community,
>> we are worthy of their presence and a worthwhile experience to take the
>> time to be a part of, not the other way around. These days, we seem more
>> like enemies to players than friends/fellow players, given these
>> recent/past developments regarding the community servers.
>>
>> We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to put
>> up servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their own now.
>> However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would have done it
>> back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they allowed us (and still
>> allow us) to use the functionality, giving us every opportunity to prove
>> that we could use it responsibly and in the best interest of the player.
>> Clearly, there were a few who could not do that and thus we were all
>> punished. While, in my o

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[davidaap1234]

"TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. 
The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from 
this change."
Player counts havent dropped any the player experience is sinificantly 
improved by not getting into servers full of ads and pay 2 win 
modifications.


"It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve 
servers."

No its not.

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Paulson" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list" 


Sent: 26-2-2014 22:27:57
Subject: Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect 
exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is 
punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.


TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. 
The player experience was not improved by any significant amount from 
this change.


It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve 
servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this 
change and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official 
servers because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot 
official servers they would also be in the top 20.


http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.

There was another situation like this long before quickplay where 
community servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve 
came to their senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still 
working on TF2 with the good sense to remove official servers by 
default as well.





On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato 
 wrote:
I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not 
QP should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot 
of issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out 
in 2011. Though some of the changes that have been added recently are 
a step in the right direction, there are still many issues with this 
functionality that need to be addressed and improved upon.


I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to 
benefit everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no 
offense) seems a bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of 
change needed to make Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and 
extensible system for server ops and the community at large. It does 
not address many of the issues that have ended up creating this 
current situation we are all in and does not have a list of concerns 
or changes or anything that could be specifically addressed, it only 
has a demand and presents a solution that is based on an idea that we 
as server owners deserve players in our servers, which is the wrong 
way to go about this. And lets not forget the players, we have to be 
fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not they will be placed 
in our servers. We have to show that, as a community, we are worthy of 
their presence and a worthwhile experience to take the time to be a 
part of, not the other way around. These days, we seem more like 
enemies to players than friends/fellow players, given these 
recent/past developments regarding the community servers.


We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to 
put up servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their 
own now. However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would 
have done it back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they 
allowed us (and still allow us) to use the functionality, giving us 
every opportunity to prove that we could use it responsibly and in the 
best interest of the player. Clearly, there were a few who could not 
do that and thus we were all punished. While, in my opinion, Quickplay 
was not entirely thought all the way through and I know I and many 
others have their own opinions about this subject, it does not account 
for the fact that we as a community were unable, and perhaps 
unwilling, to police ourselves well enough to ensure we used this 
functionality responsibly to avoid Valve stepping in and taking the 
measures it has. Arguably, that isn't our job to police other 
communities/servers, it never has been, and its not Valve's job 
either. But someone had to do this in order to put an end to the 
misuse, which is a sad thing indeed because it should not have come to 
that.


We could go back and forth on who started what and why and all that 
all day, but bottom line, we are just as much at fault as Valve is for 
these recent developments that have hurt many community servers. 
However, what is done is done and we have to move forward now. It is 
time to stop playing the victim and start attempts in trying to get 
some meaningful, and dare I say diplomatic, dialogue open between 
ourselves and Valve for meaningful change, not band-aid solutions and 
option switching that wo

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Supreet]

Wow. Thanks for posting that Robert. This is just disheartening to see.
Hopefully, Valve will do something about this and fix this problem.

What Valve needs to understand and ask themselves is do we even play enough
TF2 or host enough servers to understand player dynamics?

Community server ops that have hosted servers for years have that
experience. Valve, please! You have to understand just because people are
complaining on the forums and on Reddit - they don't account for the loyal
and majority of the population.

There are people for whom TF2 is a season or temporary game. And there are
people who regular TF2 and don't play other games much often. A lot of
these players who complain about these issues are the temporary players who
will leave the game or just trade.

Please support the petition once again and help bring this topic to
attention.

It is just sad to see that Valve made quickplay available to community
servers and made it a crutch for them - now they took away the crutch just
like that.

The whole system where you can see which server you want to logon to
through Quickplay is plain hypocritical. "Quick"play? More like Smart
Server List Browser.
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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Robert Paulson]

How are we responsible for communities like bets.tf using redirect
exploits? We do not have any influence over these people. Valve is
punishing the majority of us who did nothing wrong.

TF2 player count dropping is proof that this decision was a mistake. The
player experience was not improved by any significant amount from this
change.

It was already proved the community experience is superior to Valve
servers. There wasn't an official server in the top 200 before this change
and now look at gametracker. It is now dominated by official servers
because they get all the new players. If there were 32 slot official
servers they would also be in the top 20.

http://www.gametracker.com/search/tf2/?query=srcds&searchipp=50.

There was another situation like this long before quickplay where community
servers were put in a custom tab. Thankfully someone at Valve came to their
senses and removed it. I hope there is someone still working on TF2 with
the good sense to remove official servers by default as well.




On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Silencio Delgato  wrote:

> I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not QP
> should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
> issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
> Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
> right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
> need to be addressed and improved upon.
>
> I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to benefit
> everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense) seems a
> bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed to make
> Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for server ops
> and the community at large. It does not address many of the issues that
> have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and does not
> have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be specifically
> addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that is based on an
> idea that we as server owners deserve players in our servers, which is the
> wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the players, we have to be
> fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not they will be placed in
> our servers. We have to show that, as a community, we are worthy of their
> presence and a worthwhile experience to take the time to be a part of, not
> the other way around. These days, we seem more like enemies to players than
> friends/fellow players, given these recent/past developments regarding the
> community servers.
>
> We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to put
> up servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their own now.
> However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would have done it
> back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they allowed us (and still
> allow us) to use the functionality, giving us every opportunity to prove
> that we could use it responsibly and in the best interest of the player.
> Clearly, there were a few who could not do that and thus we were all
> punished. While, in my opinion, Quickplay was not entirely thought all the
> way through and I know I and many others have their own opinions about this
> subject, it does not account for the fact that we as a community were
> unable, and perhaps unwilling, to police ourselves well enough to ensure we
> used this functionality responsibly to avoid Valve stepping in and taking
> the measures it has. Arguably, that isn't our job to police other
> communities/servers, it never has been, and its not Valve's job either. But
> someone had to do this in order to put an end to the misuse, which is a sad
> thing indeed because it should not have come to that.
>
> We could go back and forth on who started what and why and all that all
> day, but bottom line, we are just as much at fault as Valve is for these
> recent developments that have hurt many community servers. However, what is
> done is done and we have to move forward now. It is time to stop playing
> the victim and start attempts in trying to get some meaningful, and dare I
> say diplomatic, dialogue open between ourselves and Valve for meaningful
> change, not band-aid solutions and option switching that works in the short
> term. Community servers are important for this game, they always have been
> for good number of reasons and they should be treated that way. However, we
> cannot rely on that reasoning alone to get anything done. We have to prove
> that the community experience is worth having/supporting, now more than
> ever before. The burden is on us and we need to work for it again and prove
> we are ready for the responsibility of owning a server that has players
> connecting to it utilizing functionality like Quickplay, but not just to
> Valve, but to the players that play with us on our servers as well. Respect
>

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Silencio Delgato]

I think there is more to the Quickplay issue than just whether or not QP
should default to Valve servers or not. QP itself has caused a lot of
issues and became the center of controversy ever since it came out in 2011.
Though some of the changes that have been added recently are a step in the
right direction, there are still many issues with this functionality that
need to be addressed and improved upon.

I'm all for wanting change to this functionality for the better to benefit
everyone involved, but this petition (and please take no offense) seems a
bit too short and vague to actually get the kind of change needed to make
Quickplay a beneficial, reasonable, and extensible system for server ops
and the community at large. It does not address many of the issues that
have ended up creating this current situation we are all in and does not
have a list of concerns or changes or anything that could be specifically
addressed, it only has a demand and presents a solution that is based on an
idea that we as server owners deserve players in our servers, which is the
wrong way to go about this. And lets not forget the players, we have to be
fair to them as well, regardless of whether or not they will be placed in
our servers. We have to show that, as a community, we are worthy of their
presence and a worthwhile experience to take the time to be a part of, not
the other way around. These days, we seem more like enemies to players than
friends/fellow players, given these recent/past developments regarding the
community servers.

We also have to accept that, while Valve relied on us in the past to put up
servers for this game, they have the ability to put up their own now.
However, if they wanted to cut us out entirely, they would have done it
back in 2011 when Quickplay became a thing. But they allowed us (and still
allow us) to use the functionality, giving us every opportunity to prove
that we could use it responsibly and in the best interest of the player.
Clearly, there were a few who could not do that and thus we were all
punished. While, in my opinion, Quickplay was not entirely thought all the
way through and I know I and many others have their own opinions about this
subject, it does not account for the fact that we as a community were
unable, and perhaps unwilling, to police ourselves well enough to ensure we
used this functionality responsibly to avoid Valve stepping in and taking
the measures it has. Arguably, that isn't our job to police other
communities/servers, it never has been, and its not Valve's job either. But
someone had to do this in order to put an end to the misuse, which is a sad
thing indeed because it should not have come to that.

We could go back and forth on who started what and why and all that all
day, but bottom line, we are just as much at fault as Valve is for these
recent developments that have hurt many community servers. However, what is
done is done and we have to move forward now. It is time to stop playing
the victim and start attempts in trying to get some meaningful, and dare I
say diplomatic, dialogue open between ourselves and Valve for meaningful
change, not band-aid solutions and option switching that works in the short
term. Community servers are important for this game, they always have been
for good number of reasons and they should be treated that way. However, we
cannot rely on that reasoning alone to get anything done. We have to prove
that the community experience is worth having/supporting, now more than
ever before. The burden is on us and we need to work for it again and prove
we are ready for the responsibility of owning a server that has players
connecting to it utilizing functionality like Quickplay, but not just to
Valve, but to the players that play with us on our servers as well. Respect
and trust are earned, not given freely, and I don't see anything we have
done in recent years to earn that respect/trust from anyone.

Sorry if this was too long/came off as offense or rude, I did not mean it
to be. I just felt I had to add my 2 cents.



On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:34 AM, Anthony  wrote:

>  Anyone who believes that petitioning for the default to be community
> servers is relying on quickplay traffic far too heavily or using it to i.e
> Play Ads. Remember with a good community you won't need quickplay for the
> majority of my traffic they actually find the server themselves via the
> steam browser from the data I collected. A few even favorite it afterwards
> which with the new remember IP (Steam Account) they will always know where
> it is.
>
> The point of community servers is to build a community, sure you can use
> quickplay but it is a tool not a way of knowing members. A high majority
> will go to valve servers but in recent days I've seen others talk about
> 'going to prophunt or dodgeball. In their own Free will. The change to QP
> was only positive sure there should be some tweaks but that's for another
> topic.
>
>
>
> On 26/02/2014 12:09, Robert

Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Anthony]

Anyone who believes that petitioning for the default to be community 
servers is relying on quickplay traffic far too heavily or using it to 
i.e Play Ads. Remember with a good community you won't need quickplay 
for the majority of my traffic they actually find the server themselves 
via the steam browser from the data I collected. A few even favorite it 
afterwards which with the new remember IP (Steam Account) they will 
always know where it is.


The point of community servers is to build a community, sure you can use 
quickplay but it is a tool not a way of knowing members. A high majority 
will go to valve servers but in recent days I've seen others talk about 
'going to prophunt or dodgeball. In their own Free will. The change to 
QP was only positive sure there should be some tweaks but that's for 
another topic.



On 26/02/2014 12:09, Robert Paulson wrote:
> This far from the worst suggestion I've seen. Perhaps aim for a 
seemless solution where by "community servers" wasn't even a choice 
during the first few hours of gameplay, becomes a choice later, then 
becomes the default after it has been selected a couple of times.


I don't like this modification to my idea. The point of it was to 
overcome the huge inertia to simply click play now. They need to be 
automatically switched to community servers.


It is supposed to be a compromise which guarantees players the ability 
to learn what plain tf2 is supposed to be without completely screwing 
over communities like what's happening now.



On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:30 AM, John Irwin > wrote:


>> It would be a more realistic solution to switch quickplay
settings to community servers after 3-4 hours of playing time.

This far from the worst suggestion I've seen. Perhaps aim for a
seemless solution where by "community servers" wasn't even a
choice during the first few hours of gameplay, becomes a choice
later, then becomes the default after it has been selected a
couple of times.

I'm not sure a petition is the right way to go though.
Particularly one that invites reddit to participate. Valve reads
these email strings. A good message makes itself heard.

John

On 26 Feb 2014 08:12, "Robert Paulson" mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:

It is not possible unless you did something like switching
from fast to instant respawn. In that case we went from 10 to
a whopping 30 quickplay connects per day which is hardly worth
being pleased about. Official servers are still taking the
vast majority of new players who are never exposed to
community servers.

For those of you who weren't on quickplay this is also bad
news for you. Everyone relies on new players since old players
quit all the time. Fewer players become aware of community
servers because it is too easy to just click play now.

If you have a top server you will see more players for now,
but these are mostly older players fleeing killed servers who
will not be playing forever. The new equilibrium hasn't been
reached yet and we will see more servers die as long as Valve
continues this. Unfortunately this will be a slow decline with
many server owners not realizing they are a few months away
from dying as well.

I am all for trying a petition but people will not associate
with someone who has such a bad reputation. The solution being
offered, "provide an option to choose either Valve only
servers or Community servers on every quickplay connect" would
annoy everyone. It would be a more realistic solution to
switch quickplay settings to community servers after 3-4 hours
of playing time.




On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Peter Jerde
mailto:peter-h...@jerde.net>> wrote:

I don't know about you, but our quickplay traffic has more
than TRIPLED since the changes. Seems to have been quite a
positive change.

 - Peter



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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Robert Paulson]

> This far from the worst suggestion I've seen. Perhaps aim for a seemless
solution where by "community servers" wasn't even a choice during the first
few hours of gameplay, becomes a choice later, then becomes the default
after it has been selected a couple of times.

I don't like this modification to my idea. The point of it was to overcome
the huge inertia to simply click play now. They need to be automatically
switched to community servers.

It is supposed to be a compromise which guarantees players the ability to
learn what plain tf2 is supposed to be without completely screwing over
communities like what's happening now.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:30 AM, John Irwin  wrote:

> >> It would be a more realistic solution to switch quickplay settings to
> community servers after 3-4 hours of playing time.
>
> This far from the worst suggestion I've seen. Perhaps aim for a seemless
> solution where by "community servers" wasn't even a choice during the first
> few hours of gameplay, becomes a choice later, then becomes the default
> after it has been selected a couple of times.
>
> I'm not sure a petition is the right way to go though. Particularly one
> that invites reddit to participate. Valve reads these email strings. A good
> message makes itself heard.
>
> John
> On 26 Feb 2014 08:12, "Robert Paulson"  wrote:
>
>> It is not possible unless you did something like switching from fast to
>> instant respawn. In that case we went from 10 to a whopping 30 quickplay
>> connects per day which is hardly worth being pleased about. Official
>> servers are still taking the vast majority of new players who are never
>> exposed to community servers.
>>
>> For those of you who weren't on quickplay this is also bad news for you.
>> Everyone relies on new players since old players quit all the time. Fewer
>> players become aware of community servers because it is too easy to just
>> click play now.
>>
>> If you have a top server you will see more players for now, but these are
>> mostly older players fleeing killed servers who will not be playing
>> forever. The new equilibrium hasn't been reached yet and we will see more
>> servers die as long as Valve continues this. Unfortunately this will be a
>> slow decline with many server owners not realizing they are a few months
>> away from dying as well.
>>
>> I am all for trying a petition but people will not associate with someone
>> who has such a bad reputation. The solution being offered, "provide an
>> option to choose either Valve only servers or Community servers on every
>> quickplay connect" would annoy everyone. It would be a more realistic
>> solution to switch quickplay settings to community servers after 3-4 hours
>> of playing time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Peter Jerde wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know about you, but our quickplay traffic has more than TRIPLED
>>> since the changes. Seems to have been quite a positive change.
>>>
>>>  - Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[John Irwin]

>> It would be a more realistic solution to switch quickplay settings to
community servers after 3-4 hours of playing time.

This far from the worst suggestion I've seen. Perhaps aim for a seemless
solution where by "community servers" wasn't even a choice during the first
few hours of gameplay, becomes a choice later, then becomes the default
after it has been selected a couple of times.

I'm not sure a petition is the right way to go though. Particularly one
that invites reddit to participate. Valve reads these email strings. A good
message makes itself heard.

John
On 26 Feb 2014 08:12, "Robert Paulson"  wrote:

> It is not possible unless you did something like switching from fast to
> instant respawn. In that case we went from 10 to a whopping 30 quickplay
> connects per day which is hardly worth being pleased about. Official
> servers are still taking the vast majority of new players who are never
> exposed to community servers.
>
> For those of you who weren't on quickplay this is also bad news for you.
> Everyone relies on new players since old players quit all the time. Fewer
> players become aware of community servers because it is too easy to just
> click play now.
>
> If you have a top server you will see more players for now, but these are
> mostly older players fleeing killed servers who will not be playing
> forever. The new equilibrium hasn't been reached yet and we will see more
> servers die as long as Valve continues this. Unfortunately this will be a
> slow decline with many server owners not realizing they are a few months
> away from dying as well.
>
> I am all for trying a petition but people will not associate with someone
> who has such a bad reputation. The solution being offered, "provide an
> option to choose either Valve only servers or Community servers on every
> quickplay connect" would annoy everyone. It would be a more realistic
> solution to switch quickplay settings to community servers after 3-4 hours
> of playing time.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Peter Jerde wrote:
>
>> I don't know about you, but our quickplay traffic has more than TRIPLED
>> since the changes. Seems to have been quite a positive change.
>>
>>  - Peter
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Robert Paulson]

It is not possible unless you did something like switching from fast to
instant respawn. In that case we went from 10 to a whopping 30 quickplay
connects per day which is hardly worth being pleased about. Official
servers are still taking the vast majority of new players who are never
exposed to community servers.

For those of you who weren't on quickplay this is also bad news for you.
Everyone relies on new players since old players quit all the time. Fewer
players become aware of community servers because it is too easy to just
click play now.

If you have a top server you will see more players for now, but these are
mostly older players fleeing killed servers who will not be playing
forever. The new equilibrium hasn't been reached yet and we will see more
servers die as long as Valve continues this. Unfortunately this will be a
slow decline with many server owners not realizing they are a few months
away from dying as well.

I am all for trying a petition but people will not associate with someone
who has such a bad reputation. The solution being offered, "provide an
option to choose either Valve only servers or Community servers on every
quickplay connect" would annoy everyone. It would be a more realistic
solution to switch quickplay settings to community servers after 3-4 hours
of playing time.




On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Peter Jerde  wrote:

> I don't know about you, but our quickplay traffic has more than TRIPLED
> since the changes. Seems to have been quite a positive change.
>
>  - Peter
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Petitioning Valve TF2 Development

[Peter Jerde]

I don't know about you, but our quickplay traffic has more than TRIPLED since 
the changes. Seems to have been quite a positive change.

 - Peter



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