subject:"Re\: OOBOL and English was Re\: Still COBOL After All These Years\?"

That explains why the term used in the 19th Century was confusing; it has no 
relevance to the issue of whether the term is limited to temperatures in the 
range 0-100.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 11:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

WTF? It's true that both used (past tense) the freezing and boiling point
of "water" at STP, but since when weren't they defined outside of 0-100?"

Because:

The centigrade scale was confusing because "centigrade" was also the
Spanish and French term for a unit of angular measurement equal to 1/100 of
a right angle. When the scale was extended from 0 to 100 degrees for
temperature, centigrade was more properly hectograde. The public was
largely unaffected by the confusion. Even though the degree Celsius was
adopted by international committees in 1948, weather forecasts issued by
the BBC continued to use degrees centigrade until February 1985.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:27 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> WTF? It's true that both used (past tense) the freezing and boiling point
> of "water" at STP, but since when weren't they defined outside of 0-100?
>
> Scare quotes because there is no standard for the percent of Deuterium in
> the water.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Centigrade was derived from Celsius, however, both described only the
> freezing point and boiling point of water at NTP.
>
> My physics teachers said don't say >100 centigrade. It's outside the
> bounds. So physicists use Kelvin.
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:26 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> > Actually, i does, but is not as precise:
> >
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZfcTRtyL1fHmGItPj-arpyyhb5EkDhUxhc8INI8z9BhT28rjk7J8JV2395Uwd7sGnpC_G5-WdPEkYaPYMrlh1fItSRJOUCDucUqXK5IOPjKCoC4RfbpCc1ufuEYxlinUM0WiPti_hVwdTYo1ZDI5RpLaTn1egI8jCtSkqHfLm8llGulJJUBk1ep2_bu4jEVyJvZccjCMguX5TP6eLTE2CtooWHn9naE2zF2ERJedlrw2LP0dkgR-DFrpOz7By8t7fYf1tNYFfpdL_FWB-R7Y7xXjlhtiuV8Bg1V6FWgAIiTC_TksQft1PDlIRHGjVUBu0mhbtwK07UF_blEtDFQgdEGWmaB9pTGCU2vwq0y2i3IJqA1m35BuWPympC_mbki5G6k9m9wDvZ_KMV6wap-BOnIkG4CvMdpMRheDkVgxg1ju3hbqn_LZLkKGuLqKxj0z30xjGHfcHsEKDUm037cMww/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtco.com%2Fdifference-between-celsius-and-centigrade-609226
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> >
> > ________
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Joe Monk 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:54 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade
> doesn't
> > exist.
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.
> It's
> > > fun though, right?
> > >
> > > I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> > > pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is
> > something
> > > we could all ponder and be better off.
> > >
> > > First Horizon Bank
> > > Mainframe Technical Support
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf
> > > Of Bob Bridges
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > >
> > > [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > > attachments.]
> > >
> > > I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> > > euphonious.  A personal bias.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> > >
> > > /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> > > on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated
> by
> > &

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

WTF? It's true that both used (past tense) the freezing and boiling point
of "water" at STP, but since when weren't they defined outside of 0-100?"

Because:

The centigrade scale was confusing because "centigrade" was also the
Spanish and French term for a unit of angular measurement equal to 1/100 of
a right angle. When the scale was extended from 0 to 100 degrees for
temperature, centigrade was more properly hectograde. The public was
largely unaffected by the confusion. Even though the degree Celsius was
adopted by international committees in 1948, weather forecasts issued by
the BBC continued to use degrees centigrade until February 1985.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:27 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> WTF? It's true that both used (past tense) the freezing and boiling point
> of "water" at STP, but since when weren't they defined outside of 0-100?
>
> Scare quotes because there is no standard for the percent of Deuterium in
> the water.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Centigrade was derived from Celsius, however, both described only the
> freezing point and boiling point of water at NTP.
>
> My physics teachers said don't say >100 centigrade. It's outside the
> bounds. So physicists use Kelvin.
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:26 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> > Actually, i does, but is not as precise:
> >
> >
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZfcTRtyL1fHmGItPj-arpyyhb5EkDhUxhc8INI8z9BhT28rjk7J8JV2395Uwd7sGnpC_G5-WdPEkYaPYMrlh1fItSRJOUCDucUqXK5IOPjKCoC4RfbpCc1ufuEYxlinUM0WiPti_hVwdTYo1ZDI5RpLaTn1egI8jCtSkqHfLm8llGulJJUBk1ep2_bu4jEVyJvZccjCMguX5TP6eLTE2CtooWHn9naE2zF2ERJedlrw2LP0dkgR-DFrpOz7By8t7fYf1tNYFfpdL_FWB-R7Y7xXjlhtiuV8Bg1V6FWgAIiTC_TksQft1PDlIRHGjVUBu0mhbtwK07UF_blEtDFQgdEGWmaB9pTGCU2vwq0y2i3IJqA1m35BuWPympC_mbki5G6k9m9wDvZ_KMV6wap-BOnIkG4CvMdpMRheDkVgxg1ju3hbqn_LZLkKGuLqKxj0z30xjGHfcHsEKDUm037cMww/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtco.com%2Fdifference-between-celsius-and-centigrade-609226
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> >
> > ________
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Joe Monk 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:54 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade
> doesn't
> > exist.
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.
> It's
> > > fun though, right?
> > >
> > > I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> > > pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is
> > something
> > > we could all ponder and be better off.
> > >
> > > First Horizon Bank
> > > Mainframe Technical Support
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf
> > > Of Bob Bridges
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > >
> > > [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > > attachments.]
> > >
> > > I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> > > euphonious.  A personal bias.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> > >
> > > /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> > > on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated
> by
> > > hate or prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told
> > You
> > > So" by Rush Limbaugh */
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Joe Monk
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17
> > >
> > > Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

Time for us to go back to school.

Lb Foot is not a measure of pressure, it needs to act on area to be a
measure of pressure. Lbs / square foot/ PSI etc. are common measurements of
pressure (tires etc.).

In the 60's we were taught poundals as a measure of force, ie the force
required to accelerate  a mass of one pound at a rate of one foot per
second per second.

Thankfully SI came to the rescue by the time I went to college.
Isaac Newton, quintessentially English gets an SI unit, as does Faraday,
Tesla, Curie. Very multicultural...


On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:44 PM Mike Schwab 
wrote:

> And the metric equivalent is Newton Meters.  You can get torque
> wrenches in either measurement, I would think some have both.  Some
> bolts will fail if too loose or too tight.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:31 PM Gibney, Dave  wrote:
> >
> > Foot pounds is a measure of pressure
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > >
> > > Yes, and whyat is lbf?
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > > BY0HMszNaDT!78SA9VzAdbjMTRYvnKQIT6jc0VOHrKWRan9aUIqsjvsI210oVzT
> > > j6BY-5Ot12g$
> > >
> > >
> > > ________
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> > > behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > >
> > > Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe
> weight is
> > > measured in stones.
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > > > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > > >
> > > > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > > >
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > > >
> > > BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > > > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > > > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These
> Years?
> > > >
> > > > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > > > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> > > >
> > > > Thank you France.
> > > >
> > > > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> > > >
> > > > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> > > >
> > > > Tony Thigpen
> > > >
> > > > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit
> of mass,
> > > not
> > > > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > > > >>
> > > > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an
> idiomatic
> > > > > alternative?:
> > > > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > > > o Other (specify)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > > > >
> > > > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for
> ∆v?
> > > > Ugh!)
> > > > >
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > > > >> Sent: Wedne

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Mike Schwab

And the metric equivalent is Newton Meters.  You can get torque
wrenches in either measurement, I would think some have both.  Some
bolts will fail if too loose or too tight.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:31 PM Gibney, Dave  wrote:
>
> Foot pounds is a measure of pressure
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Yes, and whyat is lbf?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > BY0HMszNaDT!78SA9VzAdbjMTRYvnKQIT6jc0VOHrKWRan9aUIqsjvsI210oVzT
> > j6BY-5Ot12g$
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> > behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is
> > measured in stones.
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> > >
> > > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > >
> > BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> > >
> > > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> > >
> > > Thank you France.
> > >
> > > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> > >
> > > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> > >
> > > Tony Thigpen
> > >
> > > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of 
> > > >> mass,
> > not
> > > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > > >>
> > > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > > > alternative?:
> > > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > > o Other (specify)?
> > > >
> > > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > > >
> > > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> > > Ugh!)
> > > >
> > > >> 
> > > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> > > >>
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: Bob Bridges
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> > > >>
> > > >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > > attachments.]
> > > >>
> > > >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> > > >
> > > > -- gil
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-
> > MAIN
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > send email to lis

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Mike Schwab

One Stone is 14 pounds on Earth's Surface on average.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:27 PM Gibney, Dave  wrote:
>
> Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is 
> measured in stones.
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> >
> > Thank you France.
> >
> > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> >
> > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> >
> > Tony Thigpen
> >
> > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > >
> > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of 
> > >> mass, not
> > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > >>
> > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > > alternative?:
> > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > o Other (specify)?
> > >
> > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > >
> > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> > Ugh!)
> > >
> > >> 
> > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Bob Bridges
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> > >>
> > >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> > >>
> > >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> > >
> > > -- gil
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Tony Thigpen


Horse Power??

Tony Thigpen

Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 10:20 PM:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 00:31:03 +, Gibney, Dave wrote:


Foot pounds is a measure of pressure


???

Torque?


-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM

Yes, and whyat is lbf?


-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 00:31:03 +, Gibney, Dave wrote:

>Foot pounds is a measure of pressure
> 
???

Torque?

>> -Original Message-
>> From: Seymour J Metz
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
>> 
>> Yes, and whyat is lbf?

-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Gibney, Dave

Have to admit that I haven't been in a physics class in 40 years. 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)
> __;!!JmPEgBY0HMszNaDT!7i7tDktIvhYFOl7W3Lc4g1gb3zY9Z96bxOUHwZei8_8
> SEWGN6VBnx0KF3Z56hg$
> 
> foot-pound force is ft⋅lbf or ft⋅lb
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> BY0HMszNaDT!7i7tDktIvhYFOl7W3Lc4g1gb3zY9Z96bxOUHwZei8_8SEWGN6V
> Bnx0KJcGj9fQ$
> 
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:31 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> Foot pounds is a measure of pressure
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Yes, and whyat is lbf?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> >
> BY0HMszNaDT!78SA9VzAdbjMTRYvnKQIT6jc0VOHrKWRan9aUIqsjvsI210oVzT
> > j6BY-5Ot12g$
> >
> >
> > ________________
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> > behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is
> > measured in stones.
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> On
> > > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> > >
> > > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> > >
> >
> BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> > >
> > > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> > >
> > > Thank you France.
> > >
> > > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> > >
> > > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> > >
> > > Tony Thigpen
> > >
> > > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of 
> > > >> mass,
> > not
> > > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > > >>
> > > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > > > alternative?:
> > > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > > o Other (specify)?
> > > >
> > > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > > >
> > > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> > > Ugh!)
> > > >
> > > >> 
> > > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> > > >>
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: Bob Bridges
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)

foot-pound force is ft⋅lbf or ft⋅lb


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Gibney, Dave 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Foot pounds is a measure of pressure

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Yes, and whyat is lbf?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> BY0HMszNaDT!78SA9VzAdbjMTRYvnKQIT6jc0VOHrKWRan9aUIqsjvsI210oVzT
> j6BY-5Ot12g$
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is
> measured in stones.
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> >
> BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> >
> > Thank you France.
> >
> > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> >
> > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> >
> > Tony Thigpen
> >
> > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > >
> > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of 
> > >> mass,
> not
> > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > >>
> > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > > alternative?:
> > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > o Other (specify)?
> > >
> > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > >
> > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> > Ugh!)
> > >
> > >> 
> > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Bob Bridges
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> > >>
> > >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> > >>
> > >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> > >
> > > -- gil
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-
> MAIN
> > >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> --
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Gibney, Dave

Foot pounds is a measure of pressure

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:29 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> Yes, and whyat is lbf?
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> BY0HMszNaDT!78SA9VzAdbjMTRYvnKQIT6jc0VOHrKWRan9aUIqsjvsI210oVzT
> j6BY-5Ot12g$
> 
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of Gibney, Dave 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is
> measured in stones.
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> >
> BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> > a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> > standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> >
> > Thank you France.
> >
> > Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> >
> > (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> >
> > Tony Thigpen
> >
> > Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > >
> > >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of 
> > >> mass,
> not
> > of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> > >>
> > > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > > alternative?:
> > > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > > o Other (specify)?
> > >
> > > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> > >
> > > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> > Ugh!)
> > >
> > >> 
> > >> From: Jackson, Rob
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Bob Bridges
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> > >>
> > >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> > >>
> > >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> > >
> > > -- gil
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-
> MAIN
> > >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Yes, and whyat is lbf?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Gibney, Dave 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is 
measured in stones.


> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
>
> Thank you France.
>
> Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
>
> (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
> Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> >
> >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, 
> >> not
> of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> >>
> > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > alternative?:
> > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > o Other (specify)?
> >
> > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> >
> > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> Ugh!)
> >
> >> 
> >> From: Jackson, Rob
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Bob Bridges
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> >>
> >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
> >>
> >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> >
> > -- gil
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Gibney, Dave

Actually, the pound is a unit of force in English units. I believe weight is 
measured in stones.


> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:23 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!JmPEg
> BY0HMszNaDT!6qfIOAdssnfWNb9bnHdVr6MfJemAcckz1N2FLwezCZtDcak8bJ
> a3JHuDBIGmlQ$
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
> standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)
> 
> Thank you France.
> 
> Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...
> 
> (This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)
> 
> Tony Thigpen
> 
> Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> > On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> >
> >> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, 
> >> not
> of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
> >>
> > Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> > alternative?:
> > o ... how many kg I mass?
> > o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> > o Other (specify)?
> >
> > Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
> >
> > (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?
> Ugh!)
> >
> >> 
> >> From: Jackson, Rob
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Bob Bridges
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
> >>
> >> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
> >>
> >> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
> >
> > -- gil
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

I would prefer "how many kgF I weigh"; I definitely don't like Newtons as a 
weight unit for, e.g., medicine, sports.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, not 
>of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
>
Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
alternative?:
o ... how many kg I mass?
o ... how many kgF I weigh?
o Other (specify)?

Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?

(BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?  Ugh!)

>
>From: Jackson, Rob
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Bob Bridges
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
>
>[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]
>
>... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.

-- gil

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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

WTF? It's true that both used (past tense) the freezing and boiling point of 
"water" at STP, but since when weren't they defined outside of 0-100?

Scare quotes because there is no standard for the percent of Deuterium in the 
water.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Centigrade was derived from Celsius, however, both described only the
freezing point and boiling point of water at NTP.

My physics teachers said don't say >100 centigrade. It's outside the
bounds. So physicists use Kelvin.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:26 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Actually, i does, but is not as precise:
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZfcTRtyL1fHmGItPj-arpyyhb5EkDhUxhc8INI8z9BhT28rjk7J8JV2395Uwd7sGnpC_G5-WdPEkYaPYMrlh1fItSRJOUCDucUqXK5IOPjKCoC4RfbpCc1ufuEYxlinUM0WiPti_hVwdTYo1ZDI5RpLaTn1egI8jCtSkqHfLm8llGulJJUBk1ep2_bu4jEVyJvZccjCMguX5TP6eLTE2CtooWHn9naE2zF2ERJedlrw2LP0dkgR-DFrpOz7By8t7fYf1tNYFfpdL_FWB-R7Y7xXjlhtiuV8Bg1V6FWgAIiTC_TksQft1PDlIRHGjVUBu0mhbtwK07UF_blEtDFQgdEGWmaB9pTGCU2vwq0y2i3IJqA1m35BuWPympC_mbki5G6k9m9wDvZ_KMV6wap-BOnIkG4CvMdpMRheDkVgxg1ju3hbqn_LZLkKGuLqKxj0z30xjGHfcHsEKDUm037cMww/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thoughtco.com%2Fdifference-between-celsius-and-centigrade-609226
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Joe Monk 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:54 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade doesn't
> exist.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob 
> wrote:
>
> > We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's
> > fun though, right?
> >
> > I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> > pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is
> something
> > we could all ponder and be better off.
> >
> > First Horizon Bank
> > Mainframe Technical Support
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Bob Bridges
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> >
> > I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> > euphonious.  A personal bias.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> > on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by
> > hate or prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told
> You
> > So" by Rush Limbaugh */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Joe Monk
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17
> >
> > Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)
> >
> > --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges 
> > wrote:
> > > Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without
> > > having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are
> > > cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jackson, Rob
> > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
> > >
> > > As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but
> > > I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every
> > > time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life
> > > is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough,
> > > since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in
> > > Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at
> > > zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I
> > guess I never cared.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email
> > to lists...@

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

You have the same mass versus weight issue with pound.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all
standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)

Thank you France.

Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...

(This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)

Tony Thigpen

Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>> I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, 
>> not of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
>>
> Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
> alternative?:
> o ... how many kg I mass?
> o ... how many kgF I weigh?
> o Other (specify)?
>
> Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?
>
> (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?  Ugh!)
>
>> 
>> From: Jackson, Rob
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Bob Bridges
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
>>
>> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening 
>> attachments.]
>>
>> ... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.
>
> -- gil
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 22, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> (BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?  Ugh!)
> 
> 

From wikipedia:

“The most common unit for specific impulse is the second, as values are 
identical regardless of whether the calculations are done in SI, imperial, or 
customary units. Nearly all manufacturers quote their engine performance in 
seconds, and the unit is also useful for specifying aircraft engine 
performance.[6]

“The use of metres per second to specify effective exhaust velocity is also 
reasonably common. The unit is intuitive when describing rocket engines, 
although the effective exhaust speed of the engines may be significantly 
different from the actual exhaust speed, especially in gas-generator cycle 
engines. For airbreathing jet engines, the effective exhaust velocity is not 
physically meaningful, although it can be used for comparison purposes.[7]

“Meters per second are numerically equivalent to Newton-seconds per kg 
(N·s/kg), and SI measurements of specific impulse can be written in terms of 
either units interchangeably.[citation needed]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Tony Thigpen

See! SI is a "FANTASTIC" improvement over old stuff. It's all 
standardized and everyone talks in the same way. (NOT!)


Thank you France.

Vive la pound, and inch, and mile...

(This post was posted with sarcastic mode set to "on".)

Tony Thigpen

Paul Gilmartin wrote on 7/22/20 5:58 PM:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:


I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, not 
of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).


Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
alternative?:
o ... how many kg I mass?
o ... how many kgF I weigh?
o Other (specify)?

Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?

(BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?  Ugh!)



From: Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM

-Original Message-
From: Bob Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.


-- gil

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

Centigrade was derived from Celsius, however, both described only the
freezing point and boiling point of water at NTP.

My physics teachers said don't say >100 centigrade. It's outside the
bounds. So physicists use Kelvin.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:26 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Actually, i does, but is not as precise:
>
> https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-celsius-and-centigrade-609226
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Joe Monk 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:54 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade doesn't
> exist.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob 
> wrote:
>
> > We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's
> > fun though, right?
> >
> > I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> > pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is
> something
> > we could all ponder and be better off.
> >
> > First Horizon Bank
> > Mainframe Technical Support
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Bob Bridges
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> >
> > I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> > euphonious.  A personal bias.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> > on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by
> > hate or prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told
> You
> > So" by Rush Limbaugh */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Joe Monk
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17
> >
> > Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)
> >
> > --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges 
> > wrote:
> > > Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without
> > > having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are
> > > cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jackson, Rob
> > > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
> > >
> > > As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but
> > > I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every
> > > time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life
> > > is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough,
> > > since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in
> > > Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at
> > > zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I
> > guess I never cared.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email
> > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > Confidentiality notice:
> > This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally
> > privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended
> > recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
> > message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
> > dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is
> strictly
> > prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please
> immediately
> > notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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>


-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:05:29 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, not 
>of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).
>
Which of the following would you envision and welcome as an idiomatic
alternative?:
o ... how many kg I mass?
o ... how many kgF I weigh?
o Other (specify)?

Should an outfitter sell climbing ropes rated in Newtons?

(BTW, what's the SI unit of Specific Impulse?  And the formula for ∆v?  Ugh!)

>
>From: Jackson, Rob
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Bob Bridges
>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
>
>[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]
>
>... I'd have to calculate to tell you how many kg I weigh.

-- gil

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Actually, i does, but is not as precise:

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-celsius-and-centigrade-609226


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Joe 
Monk 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade doesn't
exist.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob  wrote:

> We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's
> fun though, right?
>
> I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is something
> we could all ponder and be better off.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
>
> I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> euphonious.  A personal bias.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by
> hate or prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You
> So" by Rush Limbaugh */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Joe Monk
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17
>
> Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)
>
> --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
> > Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without
> > having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are
> > cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jackson, Rob
> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
> >
> > As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but
> > I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every
> > time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life
> > is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough,
> > since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in
> > Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at
> > zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I
> guess I never cared.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> Confidentiality notice:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
> notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
>
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Joe Monk

Kelvin (absolute temperature) is converted from Celsius. Centigrade doesn't
exist.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 13:46 Jackson, Rob  wrote:

> We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's
> fun though, right?
>
> I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more
> pleasant for some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is something
> we could all ponder and be better off.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
>
> I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively
> euphonious.  A personal bias.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps
> on.  What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by
> hate or prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You
> So" by Rush Limbaugh */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Joe Monk
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17
>
> Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)
>
> --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
> > Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without
> > having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are
> > cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jackson, Rob
> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
> >
> > As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but
> > I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every
> > time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life
> > is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough,
> > since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in
> > Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at
> > zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I
> guess I never cared.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> Confidentiality notice:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
> notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
>
>
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Joe Monk

The measure of weight is a kgf. Kilogram force. It is a kilogram multiplied
by 9.8 (gravity force).

But in shorthand we say kilogram.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 15:36 Pommier, Rex  wrote:

> A kilogram may not technically be a weight, but if not the whole world, at
> least a large percentage of the world uses it as such.  Looking at a
> package of dried fruit in front of me and it says net weight 340 grams
> which I believe translates to .34 kilograms.
>
> Rex
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 1:51 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [External] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All
> These Years?
>
> A kilogram is not a weight, Bob.  Never has been; never will be.  I'm not
> one to be anal-retentive.  This point is more important than anything like
> that.
>
> I like your quote.  That was a wise person.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:41 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
>
> Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I
> missing, here?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.  -Lazarus Long */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22
>
> My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.
> You don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
>
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.
>
> I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like
> centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
> I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you
> how many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> Confidentiality notice:
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Pommier, Rex

A kilogram may not technically be a weight, but if not the whole world, at 
least a large percentage of the world uses it as such.  Looking at a package of 
dried fruit in front of me and it says net weight 340 grams which I believe 
translates to .34 kilograms.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 1:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These 
Years?

A kilogram is not a weight, Bob.  Never has been; never will be.  I'm not one 
to be anal-retentive.  This point is more important than anything like that.

I like your quote.  That was a wise person.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I missing, 
here?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a 
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a 
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act 
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a 
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization 
is for insects.  -Lazarus Long */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.  You 
don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to 
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are warm, 
30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like 
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you how 
many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 22, 2020, at 1:41 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I missing,
> here?

As long as you stay near the earth’s surface, you can treat mass and weight as 
equivalent. But kilograms measure mass, not weight. If I go into orbit around 
the earth, my weight has gone to zero, but my mass hasn’t changed.

-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020, at 19:41, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I missing,
> here?

That kg is a measure of mass, ie how much there is of something.  One kg of
sugar on earth is the same amount as 1 kg on the moon.

Weight depends on gravity.  You'd weigh much less on the moon.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

From wiki: "Anders Celsius, 27 November 1701 – 25 April 1744) was a Swedish 
astronomer, physicist and mathematician. He was professor of astronomy at 
Uppsala University from 1730 to 1744, but traveled from 1732 to 1735 visiting 
notable observatories in Germany, Italy and France. He founded the Uppsala 
Astronomical Observatory in 1741, and in 1742 proposed (an inverted form of) 
the Centigrade temperature scale which was later renamed Celsius in his honor."

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jesse 1 Robinson [jesse1.robin...@sce.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 3:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

When I was a kid a hundred years ago, the canonical term was 'centigrade', 
based I assumed on the 100 degree span between the freezing and boiling points 
of water. The term was logical and fit into a world view that included metric 
measurements and decimal currency. And who the heck was Celsius anyway?

Could Ray Bradbury have found a publisher for "Celsius 232.778"?

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 11:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These 
Years?

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's fun 
though, right?

I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more pleasant for 
some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is something we could all 
ponder and be better off.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively 
euphonious.  A personal bias.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps on.  
What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or 
prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You So" by Rush 
Limbaugh */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Joe Monk
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17

Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)

--- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without
> having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are
> cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but
> I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every
> time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life
> is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough,
> since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in
> Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at
> zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I 
> never cared.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Jesse 1 Robinson

When I was a kid a hundred years ago, the canonical term was 'centigrade', 
based I assumed on the 100 degree span between the freezing and boiling points 
of water. The term was logical and fit into a world view that included metric 
measurements and decimal currency. And who the heck was Celsius anyway?

Could Ray Bradbury have found a publisher for "Celsius 232.778"?

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 11:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These 
Years?

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's fun 
though, right?

I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more pleasant for 
some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is something we could all 
ponder and be better off.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively 
euphonious.  A personal bias.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps on.  
What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or 
prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You So" by Rush 
Limbaugh */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Joe Monk
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17

Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)

--- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without 
> having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are 
> cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but 
> I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every 
> time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life 
> is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, 
> since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in 
> Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at 
> zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I 
> never cared.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread David Spiegel


*98.6

On 2020-07-22 14:38, Bob Bridges wrote:

For weather I don't feel the need to distinguish between 67°F and 68°F.  "High 
60s" is close enough for most conversations.

I suppose you already know this, but when someone (I forget who) first worked out the 
normal human temperature, he measured a number of people and arrived at an average of 
37°C, plus or minus a few degrees.  37°C got translated to 96.6°F, which became a 
way-too-precise number adhered to by way-too-many moms.  "99!  You have a 
temperature!  Get to bed!"

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's so simple to be wise.  Just think of something stupid to say and then 
don't say it.  -Sam Levenson */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Spiegel
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

Yeah, except that Fahrenheit degrees are smaller. For the same accuracy,
you'd have to resort to digits to the right of the decimal point. Feh!

--- On 2020-07-22 12:15, Bob Bridges wrote:

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
warm, 30s are hot.

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.


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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Shirley 98.6.

Wiki claims "The normal human body temperature range is typically stated as 
36.5–37.5 °C (97.7–99.5 °F)."

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

For weather I don't feel the need to distinguish between 67°F and 68°F.  "High 
60s" is close enough for most conversations.

I suppose you already know this, but when someone (I forget who) first worked 
out the normal human temperature, he measured a number of people and arrived at 
an average of 37°C, plus or minus a few degrees.  37°C got translated to 
96.6°F, which became a way-too-precise number adhered to by way-too-many moms.  
"99!  You have a temperature!  Get to bed!"

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's so simple to be wise.  Just think of something stupid to say and then 
don't say it.  -Sam Levenson */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Spiegel
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

Yeah, except that Fahrenheit degrees are smaller. For the same accuracy,
you'd have to resort to digits to the right of the decimal point. Feh!

--- On 2020-07-22 12:15, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Jackson, Rob

A kilogram is not a weight, Bob.  Never has been; never will be.  I'm not one 
to be anal-retentive.  This point is more important than anything like that.

I like your quote.  That was a wise person.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I missing, 
here?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a 
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a 
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act 
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a 
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.  Specialization 
is for insects.  -Lazarus Long */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.  You 
don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to 
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are warm, 
30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like 
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you how 
many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Jackson, Rob

We have definitely devolved . . . like we always do on this forum.  It's fun 
though, right?

I agree on Celsius.  The name disturbs me too.  Centigrade is more pleasant for 
some reason.  Reminds me of tardigrade.  Now that is something we could all 
ponder and be better off.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 2:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively 
euphonious.  A personal bias.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps on.  
What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or 
prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You So" by Rush 
Limbaugh */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Joe Monk
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17

Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)

--- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without 
> having to think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are 
> cool, 20s are warm, 30s are hot.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but 
> I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every 
> time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life 
> is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, 
> since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in 
> Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at 
> zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I 
> never cared.

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Who doesn't?  You may not, but lots of other people do.  What am I missing,
here?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly.  Specialization is for insects.  -Lazarus Long */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.  You
don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bob Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
warm, 30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you
how many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

For weather I don't feel the need to distinguish between 67°F and 68°F.  "High 
60s" is close enough for most conversations.

I suppose you already know this, but when someone (I forget who) first worked 
out the normal human temperature, he measured a number of people and arrived at 
an average of 37°C, plus or minus a few degrees.  37°C got translated to 
96.6°F, which became a way-too-precise number adhered to by way-too-many moms.  
"99!  You have a temperature!  Get to bed!"

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's so simple to be wise.  Just think of something stupid to say and then 
don't say it.  -Sam Levenson */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Spiegel
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:22

Yeah, except that Fahrenheit degrees are smaller. For the same accuracy, 
you'd have to resort to digits to the right of the decimal point. Feh!

--- On 2020-07-22 12:15, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

I just think the word "Celsius" is ugly; "centigrade" is comparatively 
euphonious.  A personal bias.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Do you know what constitutes a "hate crime"?  Put your thinking caps on.  
What tools do we need to determine whether a crime was motivated by hate or 
prejudice?  Answer: We need thought police.  -from "See, I Told You So" by Rush 
Limbaugh */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Joe Monk
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:17

Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)

--- On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I
> have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I
> say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're
> exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than
> Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell
> you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

I took me a while before I realized that, of course, kg is a unit of mass, not 
of weight; you weigh tings in kilogram-force (kgf or kgF).


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jackson, Rob [rwjack...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.  You 
don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)


First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to 
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are warm, 
30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like 
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you how 
many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you read the New Testament with an Old-Covenant heart, it will be just 
Law to you.  Likewise, if you read the Old Testament with a New-Covenant heart, 
you will see Christ in all of it.  -Rick Joyner, "The Apostolic Ministry" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23

It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.

Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in slugs, 
please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in a grain 
or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is not 
a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;"
no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a 
beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, 
then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  
I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, 
although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
Imagine that.  
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Pm_NdRGjzh-gLPPSLRoo6uIFi2Zmzjn-DhAiYu7AFOvpzg1hS9s3rFWeJDelnUf-NPXN8vCxWk_eonnSq_hkj8tE9FRowi9Ufa1_YWYHDGdb-G5dR5VYahRIvmjnyo-oxSoXI3R_hXxdLU12IVc2vXzxjuZvHmVf4gIALNIWvuih1uzUP7wKDZ5-l6NakML4_k_bIIAWL3nOFjxO7Qa-FVlPiF_bLuF8cP5QGalWWwSedY63qwJVM-ejwaTo4MJfXd_vl8lp-n4uIQ3bRrqdldRDU1SqqDdPYSjEs8MwcbmN4rB5BKw-CtQjqgtAra2O24svgDIV--u1PnIj88J_JHKNi5PDKtFkfS9oEKziIWnTSpwZ5ekmvdoweF4BCKsYy6Ah12hsCqS-vM5yUH-r9LQ4Ft90Fz1wQzSfW7pdM78tePYEyc9jdlgTlRIbJzsLwl0AFzIIRK_fmWD4QLDbyA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Ftopic%2FImperial-unit

P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
get it.  It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say them. 
 The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius degrees.  I 
think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same 
thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe 
I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in 
Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
fortnight to miles per hour?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Mike Hochee

Is it time to mind our Ps and Qs yet? 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of PINION, RICHARD W.
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Caution! This message was sent from outside your organization.

What about cubits and stadia?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

If we're going to express sympathy for imperial units, I've always thought the 
furlong was pretty useful.  Not so much when you're driving a car, but for 
walking it works pretty well.

Portages in Minnesota and Ontario are measured in rods, but I could never get 
my head wrapped around them.  Besides, I think there are two different rods.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It said "Insert disk #3", but only two will fit. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 09:47

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other 
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. They 
evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m cooking I could 
say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for the precision I need) 
but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know 
I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of 
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans 
you had to move both before they counted it.)

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

ObColePorter I call 40 °C TDH; in fact, local humidity being what it is, I call 
30 °C (86 °F) TDH.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Pew, Curtis G [curtis@austin.utexas.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

On Jul 22, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.

If 30s are hot, what do you call 40s? We hit 106°F last week, which is just 
above 41°C.

--
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 22, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.

If 30s are hot, what do you call 40s? We hit 106°F last week, which is just 
above 41°C.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread PINION, RICHARD W.

What about cubits and stadia?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

If we're going to express sympathy for imperial units, I've always thought the 
furlong was pretty useful.  Not so much when you're driving a car, but for 
walking it works pretty well.

Portages in Minnesota and Ontario are measured in rods, but I could never get 
my head wrapped around them.  Besides, I think there are two different rods.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It said "Insert disk #3", but only two will fit. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 09:47

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other 
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. They 
evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m cooking I could 
say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for the precision I need) 
but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know 
I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of 
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans 
you had to move both before they counted it.)

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

If we're going to express sympathy for imperial units, I've always thought the 
furlong was pretty useful.  Not so much when you're driving a car, but for 
walking it works pretty well.

Portages in Minnesota and Ontario are measured in rods, but I could never get 
my head wrapped around them.  Besides, I think there are two different rods.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It said "Insert disk #3", but only two will fit. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 09:47

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other 
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. They 
evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m cooking I could 
say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for the precision I need) 
but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know 
I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of 
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans 
you had to move both before they counted it.)

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Jackson, Rob

My high school physics teacher would be rolling in his grave about now.  You 
don't weigh anything in kilograms.  :)


First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to 
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are warm, 
30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like 
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you how 
many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you read the New Testament with an Old-Covenant heart, it will be just 
Law to you.  Likewise, if you read the Old Testament with a New-Covenant heart, 
you will see Christ in all of it.  -Rick Joyner, "The Apostolic Ministry" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23

It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.

Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in slugs, 
please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in a grain 
or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is not 
a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;"
no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a 
beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, 
then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  
I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, 
although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit

P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
get it.  It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say them. 
 The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius degrees.  I 
think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same 
thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe 
I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in 
Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
fortnight to miles per hour?

--
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread David Spiegel

Yeah, except that Fahrenheit degrees are smaller. For the same accuracy, 
you'd have to resort to digits to the right of the decimal point. Feh!


On 2020-07-22 12:15, Bob Bridges wrote:

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
warm, 30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn't tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you
how many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you read the New Testament with an Old-Covenant heart, it will be just
Law to you.  Likewise, if you read the Old Testament with a New-Covenant
heart, you will see Christ in all of it.  -Rick Joyner, "The Apostolic
Ministry" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23

It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.

Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in
slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in
a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is
not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;"
no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a
beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you
disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about
physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid
for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
Imagine that.  
https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.britannica.com%2Ftopic%2FImperial-unitdata=02%7C01%7C%7C1f08f9d644ff4478e52508d82e5a8d55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637310313750326496sdata=o2W5RPBIlDxJdEtgYt8W%2BlOzErmp8kN5apiWIkk624A%3Dreserved=0

P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I
don't get it.  It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I
have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I
say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius
degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're
exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than
Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell
you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité,
fraternité", but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the
English system of units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick
question; it depends on which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can
you convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
.


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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-22 Thread Joe Monk

Centigrade? It always thought it's Celsius. :)

Joe

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:16 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
> think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
> warm, 30s are hot.
>
> I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like
> centimeters and millimeters, but I couldn’t tell you how tall I am in cm.
> I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you
> how many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* If you read the New Testament with an Old-Covenant heart, it will be
> just
> Law to you.  Likewise, if you read the Old Testament with a New-Covenant
> heart, you will see Christ in all of it.  -Rick Joyner, “The Apostolic
> Ministry” */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Jackson, Rob
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23
>
> It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.
>
> Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in
> slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add
> in
> a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.
>
> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is
> not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;"
> no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is
> a
> beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you
> disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things
> about
> physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid
> for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
>
> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
> Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit
>
> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He
> absolutely
> couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I
> don't get it.  It is what it is.
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I
> have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I
> say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're
> exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than
> Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell
> you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM
>
> The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all
> sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité,
> fraternité", but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the
> English system of units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick
> question; it depends on which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton?
> Can
> you convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Interesting; centigrade is the one system I use nowadays without having to
think much about it.  It's so easy:  0s are cold, 10s are cool, 20s are
warm, 30s are hot.

I get kilometers but I think in miles.  For short measurements I like
centimeters and millimeters, but I couldnt tell you how tall I am in cm.
I'm happy in either pounds or kilos, but I'd have to calculate to tell you
how many kg I weigh.  But centigrade makes complete sense to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you read the New Testament with an Old-Covenant heart, it will be just
Law to you.  Likewise, if you read the Old Testament with a New-Covenant
heart, you will see Christ in all of it.  -Rick Joyner, The Apostolic
Ministry */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Jackson, Rob
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 23:23

It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.

Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in
slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in
a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is
not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;"
no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a
beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you
disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about
physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid
for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit

P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I
don't get it.  It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I
have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I
say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius
degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're
exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than
Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell
you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité,
fraternité", but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the
English system of units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick
question; it depends on which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can
you convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

I wondered whether someone would catch me on that.  Yeah, I know AltaVista gave 
up the ghost a while ago.  I still ~think~ "AltaVista"; I type "alta" in the 
address bar and select Yahoo from the list.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Programmer:  We've all heard that the Inuits have 22 different words for 
snow...the English-speaking sailor has about the same number for "rope" and the 
carpenter considerably more for "piece of wood"; all three of them have special 
distinctions for the things that are important in their everyday lives.  (And 
the programmer for "element of storage", come to think of it.)
Screenwriter:  Actually, screenwriters have 92 words for "gratuitously sexy."
  -From an email conversation, summer 1998 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of zMan
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 20:20

Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.

--- On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
> capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
> simply that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
> actually.  So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that
> you were saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were
> referring to the internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread David Crayford

Not as bad as the pint. I thought I was being short changed when I first 
ordered a beer in the USA!

On 21 Jul 2020, at 10:57 pm, Tom Russell  wrote:

>> Do we really want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, 
>> with the
>> same name denoting different quantities depending on context?
> 
> I agree with Shmuel.  As a Canadian I was always mildly amused that the 
> Americans had different quarts and gallons from us.  They were wrong of 
> course, but in a naïve way.  Their quart was 32 ounces and ours was 40, their 
> gallon was four quarts and so was ours. However I remember my shock when I 
> discovered the ounce is different as well.  A US fluid ounce is 1.040843 of 
> our fluid ounces.  That just seems so *wrong*. 
> 
> G. Tom Russell   
> “Stay calm. Be brave. Wait for the signs” — Jasper FriendlyBear
> “… and remember to leave good news alone.” — Gracie HeavyHand 
> 
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


I guess everyone knows I can't type worth a flip. :-)

Tony Thigpen

Mike Schwab wrote on 7/21/20 4:58 PM:

100 KPM (Kilometers per minute) would be about 6,000 KPH (Kilometers per
hour), about Mach 6, or 3 times the speed of the Concorde.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 1:24 PM Tony Thigpen  wrote:


Too many things

That context was with regard to driving in Canada and should have been
100 KPM, not 100 knots. :-(

Last time I was in Canada, we still were stuck with mostly 55mph limits
in USA while Canada seemed to have a standard of 100kpm so I equate the
two.

My point was that I don't bother to convert. I just use the measurement
as presented.

Tony Thigpen

Pew, Curtis G wrote on 7/21/20 12:28 PM:

On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:12 AM, David Spiegel 

wrote:


"... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's

actually 62.5 MPH.




Well, if the posted limit is 55 mph, 62.5 mph seems about the right

speed to go. 


But duck-duck-go tells me 100 knots is 115.078 mph, or 185.2001 km/h.




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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Mike Schwab

100 KPM (Kilometers per minute) would be about 6,000 KPH (Kilometers per
hour), about Mach 6, or 3 times the speed of the Concorde.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 1:24 PM Tony Thigpen  wrote:

> Too many things
>
> That context was with regard to driving in Canada and should have been
> 100 KPM, not 100 knots. :-(
>
> Last time I was in Canada, we still were stuck with mostly 55mph limits
> in USA while Canada seemed to have a standard of 100kpm so I equate the
> two.
>
> My point was that I don't bother to convert. I just use the measurement
> as presented.
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
> Pew, Curtis G wrote on 7/21/20 12:28 PM:
> > On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:12 AM, David Spiegel 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> "... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
> >> Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's
> actually 62.5 MPH.
> >>
> >
> > Well, if the posted limit is 55 mph, 62.5 mph seems about the right
> speed to go. 
> >
> > But duck-duck-go tells me 100 knots is 115.078 mph, or 185.2001 km/h.
> >
> >
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


But who believes anything that the NPR says. :-)

(As I slap myself in the face for bringing up politics.)

Tony Thigpen

Jesse 1 Robinson wrote on 7/21/20 3:22 PM:

Or not...

https://www.npr.org/2013/01/14/169140590/-the-whole-nine-yards-of-what

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Thigpen
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These 
Years?

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

Well, "the whole nine yards" is about cloth, so I guess it fits the two known 
items. :-)

As for things being in SI and not US, but labeled as US, yes, I too am seeing that. If 
you buy washers (for bolts) at the big box stores, they have larger holes than the ones 
at the true hardware store. And, they look to actually be metric when you measure them. 
Also, plywood seems to be a bit "off" on the thickness too. The router bits I 
used to use to make glue-up dado slots (with plywood going into the slot) are a little 
off now.

Tony Thigpen

Jeremy Nicoll wrote on 7/21/20 2:29 PM:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, at 17:00, Tony Thigpen wrote:

It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are
measuring.

The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football.


What about "the whole nine yards"?



In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths.
That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.


In the UK, stuff is now labelled in cm or mm, but actual sizes of many
things haven't changed.  And timber sizes are often nominal anyway, eg
the size of something before it was planed or sawn.

What used to be an 8 foot by 2 foot board is typically now sold as
2400x600.



When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We
don't say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.


On motorways etc the countdown markers to where a slip-road starts
were supposedly at 100 yard intervals.  A quick google suggests they
are "at about 100 yard/metre" intervals now, so goodness knows what
the actual distances are.  But it hardly matters for the purpose of
seeing one's approaching the start of the slip.


And incidentally both 1/16 and 1/32 were easy to work with (eg in DIY
with timber) being, if you like just a bit more and just a bit less
than 1 mm.

On the other hand if you were machining metal you'd likely have been
working in "thou" ie thousandths of an inch.  Apparently USAians call
that a "mil" - which must be easily confused with millimetre.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch



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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Jesse 1 Robinson

Or not...

https://www.npr.org/2013/01/14/169140590/-the-whole-nine-yards-of-what

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Tony Thigpen
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These 
Years?

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

Well, "the whole nine yards" is about cloth, so I guess it fits the two known 
items. :-)

As for things being in SI and not US, but labeled as US, yes, I too am seeing 
that. If you buy washers (for bolts) at the big box stores, they have larger 
holes than the ones at the true hardware store. And, they look to actually be 
metric when you measure them. Also, plywood seems to be a bit "off" on the 
thickness too. The router bits I used to use to make glue-up dado slots (with 
plywood going into the slot) are a little off now.

Tony Thigpen

Jeremy Nicoll wrote on 7/21/20 2:29 PM:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, at 17:00, Tony Thigpen wrote:
>> It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are 
>> measuring.
>>
>> The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football.
>
> What about "the whole nine yards"?
>
>
>> In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths.
>> That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.
>
> In the UK, stuff is now labelled in cm or mm, but actual sizes of many 
> things haven't changed.  And timber sizes are often nominal anyway, eg 
> the size of something before it was planed or sawn.
>
> What used to be an 8 foot by 2 foot board is typically now sold as 
> 2400x600.
>
>
>> When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We 
>> don't say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.
>
> On motorways etc the countdown markers to where a slip-road starts 
> were supposedly at 100 yard intervals.  A quick google suggests they 
> are "at about 100 yard/metre" intervals now, so goodness knows what 
> the actual distances are.  But it hardly matters for the purpose of 
> seeing one's approaching the start of the slip.
>
>
> And incidentally both 1/16 and 1/32 were easy to work with (eg in DIY 
> with timber) being, if you like just a bit more and just a bit less 
> than 1 mm.
>
> On the other hand if you were machining metal you'd likely have been 
> working in "thou" ie thousandths of an inch.  Apparently USAians call 
> that a "mil" - which must be easily confused with millimetre.
>
> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch


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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Gibney, Dave

It's been a very long time since I drove in Canada (BC). What I noticed was 
that the yellow, recommended speed thought the upcoming curve, really meant go 
that speed through the curve. Unlike ours in the US where they are very much 
advisory. 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:25 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> 
> Too many things
> 
> That context was with regard to driving in Canada and should have been
> 100 KPM, not 100 knots. :-(
> 
> Last time I was in Canada, we still were stuck with mostly 55mph limits
> in USA while Canada seemed to have a standard of 100kpm so I equate the
> two.
> 
> My point was that I don't bother to convert. I just use the measurement
> as presented.
> 
> Tony Thigpen
> 
> Pew, Curtis G wrote on 7/21/20 12:28 PM:
> > On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:12 AM, David Spiegel 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> "... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
> >> Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's
> actually 62.5 MPH.
> >>
> >
> > Well, if the posted limit is 55 mph, 62.5 mph seems about the right speed to
> go. 
> >
> > But duck-duck-go tells me 100 knots is 115.078 mph, or 185.2001 km/h.
> >
> >
> 
> --
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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Well, "the whole nine yards" is about cloth, so I guess it fits the two 
known items. :-)


As for things being in SI and not US, but labeled as US, yes, I too am 
seeing that. If you buy washers (for bolts) at the big box stores, they 
have larger holes than the ones at the true hardware store. And, they 
look to actually be metric when you measure them. Also, plywood seems to 
be a bit "off" on the thickness too. The router bits I used to use to 
make glue-up dado slots (with plywood going into the slot) are a little 
off now.


Tony Thigpen

Jeremy Nicoll wrote on 7/21/20 2:29 PM:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, at 17:00, Tony Thigpen wrote:

It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are
measuring.

The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football.


What about "the whole nine yards"?



In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths.
That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.


In the UK, stuff is now labelled in cm or mm, but actual sizes of many
things haven't changed.  And timber sizes are often nominal anyway,
eg the size of something before it was planed or sawn.

What used to be an 8 foot by 2 foot board is typically now sold as
2400x600.



When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We don't
say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.


On motorways etc the countdown markers to where a slip-road starts
were supposedly at 100 yard intervals.  A quick google suggests they
are "at about 100 yard/metre" intervals now, so goodness knows
what the actual distances are.  But it hardly matters for the purpose
of seeing one's approaching the start of the slip.


And incidentally both 1/16 and 1/32 were easy to work with (eg in DIY
with timber) being, if you like just a bit more and just a bit less than 1
mm.

On the other hand if you were machining metal you'd likely have been
working in "thou" ie thousandths of an inch.  Apparently USAians call
that a "mil" - which must be easily confused with millimetre.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch



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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, at 17:00, Tony Thigpen wrote:
> It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are 
> measuring.
> 
> The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football. 

What about "the whole nine yards"?

> In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths. 
> That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.

In the UK, stuff is now labelled in cm or mm, but actual sizes of many 
things haven't changed.  And timber sizes are often nominal anyway, 
eg the size of something before it was planed or sawn.

What used to be an 8 foot by 2 foot board is typically now sold as 
2400x600.

> When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We don't 
> say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.

On motorways etc the countdown markers to where a slip-road starts
were supposedly at 100 yard intervals.  A quick google suggests they 
are "at about 100 yard/metre" intervals now, so goodness knows 
what the actual distances are.  But it hardly matters for the purpose 
of seeing one's approaching the start of the slip.

And incidentally both 1/16 and 1/32 were easy to work with (eg in DIY
with timber) being, if you like just a bit more and just a bit less than 1 
mm.

On the other hand if you were machining metal you'd likely have been 
working in "thou" ie thousandths of an inch.  Apparently USAians call 
that a "mil" - which must be easily confused with millimetre.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousandth_of_an_inch

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


Too many things

That context was with regard to driving in Canada and should have been 
100 KPM, not 100 knots. :-(


Last time I was in Canada, we still were stuck with mostly 55mph limits 
in USA while Canada seemed to have a standard of 100kpm so I equate the two.


My point was that I don't bother to convert. I just use the measurement 
as presented.


Tony Thigpen

Pew, Curtis G wrote on 7/21/20 12:28 PM:

On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:12 AM, David Spiegel  wrote:


"... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's actually 62.5 
MPH.



Well, if the posted limit is 55 mph, 62.5 mph seems about the right speed to 
go. 

But duck-duck-go tells me 100 knots is 115.078 mph, or 185.2001 km/h.




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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:12 AM, David Spiegel  wrote:
> 
> "... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
> Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's actually 
> 62.5 MPH.
> 

Well, if the posted limit is 55 mph, 62.5 mph seems about the right speed to 
go. 

But duck-duck-go tells me 100 knots is 115.078 mph, or 185.2001 km/h.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu






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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread David Spiegel


Hi Tony,
"... 100 knots is about 55mph ..."
Assuming you meant Kilometers/Hour (based upon the context), it's 
actually 62.5 MPH.


Regards,
David

On 2020-07-21 12:00, Tony Thigpen wrote:
It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are 
measuring.


The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football. 
In football, we never measure in feet or inches, just yards. We just 
care if it crosses the line.


For construction, we never use yards, it's always feet. It can be 300 
feet and we still call it feet. We don't convert it to yards.


In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths. 
That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.


When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We don't 
say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.


When I am flying my plane, I only care about height in 100 feet 
increments. If I say I am at 3100 feet, that can be anywhere between 
3050 and 3150. And, if I am talking to ATC, its "N1234 level at 3.1".


And, speaking of flying, I fly in KPH , not MPH. I don't don't convert 
between knots or miles, I just use what is applicable.


When I drive in Canada, I just use the other markings on the 
speedometer. I know that 100 knots is about 55mph, but I don't really 
care as I don't convert it back and forth. I just go by what the sign 
says. (Which, as a good American, I add 10 to, or maybe 20 if I am on 
an interstate highway.)


So, as a USAns (as someone called us), we don't worry about conversion 
between lengths that much. So, that is why the whole "must be base 10" 
issue does not matter to me.


Tony Thigpen

David Crayford wrote on 7/21/20 9:57 AM:
I agree that cups are useful! The only time I find Imperial useful is 
reading US recipes that use cups. Other than that Imperial is brain 
damaged! And I say that having grown up in the UK to a family which 
used Imperial all the time in my youth.
I used to go to the sweet shop and ask for a quarter of a pound of 
American hard gums!


I recently watched a US home improvements show and couldn't fathom 
how anybody could make sense of 1/16th of an inch. I couldn't tell 
you how many yards to a mile but meters to a KM is simple.


On 2020-07-21 9:46 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote:
On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob 
 wrote:
American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject 
garbage.  SI is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the 
"French;" no fan of "Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, 
revised a couple times or three, is a beautiful system of units in 
which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, then I assert you 
have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  I'm 
talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for 
E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use 
anything but SI units. They have precise definitions, and being 
decimal-based make calculations easier. Not to mention being used 
world-wide.


For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any 
other traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their 
advantages. They evolved because people found them useful. For 
example, when I’m cooking I could say 250 milliliters or one cup 
(they’re close enough for the precision I need) but one cup is 
simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know I’ve 
gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand 
of steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but 
for the Romans you had to move both before they counted it.)



P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to 
SI.  Imagine that.

Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.

I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact 
values for physical constants.



P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He 
absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being 
obviously superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.


As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; 
but I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind 
every time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in 
every-day life is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. 
Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same thing, I find it 
easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I 
just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute 
zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. 
Fahrenheit is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more 
precise without having to go to decimals.





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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

It's all perspective and how precise you need to be. And what we are 
measuring.


The only thing I know that is measured in yards is cloth and football. 
In football, we never measure in feet or inches, just yards. We just 
care if it crosses the line.


For construction, we never use yards, it's always feet. It can be 300 
feet and we still call it feet. We don't convert it to yards.


In home improvements, boards and such are measured in feet,inch,16ths. 
That is it. Not yards,feet,inch,16th.


When driving down the road, it's all miles or 1/10 of a mile. We don't 
say Mile,yard,feet,inch,16th.


When I am flying my plane, I only care about height in 100 feet 
increments. If I say I am at 3100 feet, that can be anywhere between 
3050 and 3150. And, if I am talking to ATC, its "N1234 level at 3.1".


And, speaking of flying, I fly in KPH , not MPH. I don't don't convert 
between knots or miles, I just use what is applicable.


When I drive in Canada, I just use the other markings on the 
speedometer. I know that 100 knots is about 55mph, but I don't really 
care as I don't convert it back and forth. I just go by what the sign 
says. (Which, as a good American, I add 10 to, or maybe 20 if I am on an 
interstate highway.)


So, as a USAns (as someone called us), we don't worry about conversion 
between lengths that much. So, that is why the whole "must be base 10" 
issue does not matter to me.


Tony Thigpen

David Crayford wrote on 7/21/20 9:57 AM:
I agree that cups are useful! The only time I find Imperial useful is 
reading US recipes that use cups. Other than that Imperial is brain 
damaged! And I say that having grown up in the UK to a family which used 
Imperial all the time in my youth.
I used to go to the sweet shop and ask for a quarter of a pound of 
American hard gums!


I recently watched a US home improvements show and couldn't fathom how 
anybody could make sense of 1/16th of an inch. I couldn't tell you how 
many yards to a mile but meters to a KM is simple.


On 2020-07-21 9:46 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote:
On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob 
 wrote:
American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  
SI is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan 
of "Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple 
times or three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may 
compute physics.  If you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge 
understanding many things about physics.  I'm talking about mechanics 
and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, although the same 
equivalency attempts apply there.
For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use 
anything but SI units. They have precise definitions, and being 
decimal-based make calculations easier. Not to mention being used 
world-wide.


For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any 
other traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their 
advantages. They evolved because people found them useful. For 
example, when I’m cooking I could say 250 milliliters or one cup 
(they’re close enough for the precision I need) but one cup is 
simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know I’ve 
gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of 
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for 
the Romans you had to move both before they counted it.)



P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to 
SI.  Imagine that.

Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.

I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact 
values for physical constants.



P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He 
absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously 
superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.


As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; 
but I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind 
every time I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in 
every-day life is Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. 
Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier 
to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like 
starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in 
Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. 
Fahrenheit is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more 
precise without having to go to decimals.





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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread David Spiegel


Hi Tom,
Don't forget that Metric was foisted upon us (as was federal 
bilingualism) by Justin's father as a political move after he quelled 
the FLQ Crisis.
It also was a sneaky way to get more tax revenue. That is, 1 penny/liter 
gasoline tax seems more palatable than an extra 4.5 cents/gallon.


One other thing ... When I worked at Environment Canada (for Americans 
think EPA+NOAA)  (1980), I was writing FORTRAN (CDC and IBM) to decipher 
weather-related data based upon MANOBS (a world-wide convention).
Believe it or not, EVERY item was measured in Imperial units (e.g. 
inches of rain/snow, candlepowers of sunlight, windspeed in miles per 
hour, atmospheric pressure in inches of mercury etc.). There was nary a 
Meter, Joule, Newton nor Kilopascal.


Regards,
David

On 2020-07-21 10:57, Tom Russell wrote:

Do we really want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, 
with the
same name denoting different quantities depending on context?

I agree with Shmuel.  As a Canadian I was always mildly amused that the 
Americans had different quarts and gallons from us.  They were wrong of course, 
but in a naïve way.  Their quart was 32 ounces and ours was 40, their gallon 
was four quarts and so was ours. However I remember my shock when I discovered 
the ounce is different as well.  A US fluid ounce is 1.040843 of our fluid 
ounces.  That just seems so *wrong*.

G. Tom Russell
“Stay calm. Be brave. Wait for the signs” — Jasper FriendlyBear
“… and remember to leave good news alone.” — Gracie HeavyHand

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Tom Russell

> Do we really want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, 
> with the
> same name denoting different quantities depending on context?

I agree with Shmuel.  As a Canadian I was always mildly amused that the 
Americans had different quarts and gallons from us.  They were wrong of course, 
but in a naïve way.  Their quart was 32 ounces and ours was 40, their gallon 
was four quarts and so was ours. However I remember my shock when I discovered 
the ounce is different as well.  A US fluid ounce is 1.040843 of our fluid 
ounces.  That just seems so *wrong*. 

G. Tom Russell   
“Stay calm. Be brave. Wait for the signs” — Jasper FriendlyBear
“… and remember to leave good news alone.” — Gracie HeavyHand 

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread David Crayford

No, but I understood what the 18 and 6 yard boxes were in football :)

Measuring out cups of flour is easier than getting the scales out when making 
Yorkshire puddings. 

> On 21 Jul 2020, at 10:33 pm, Martin Packer  wrote:
> 
> Then the 440 yard and 880 yard races would've meant nothing to you at 
> school. :-)
> 
> Cheers, Martin
> 
> Martin Packer
> 
> zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM
> 
> +44-7802-245-584
> 
> email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com
> 
> Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker
> 
> Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com
> 
> Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or 
> 
> https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2
> 
> 
> Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA
> 
> 
> 
> From:   David Crayford 
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date:   21/07/2020 14:58
> Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After 
> All These Years?
> Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that cups are useful! The only time I find Imperial useful is 
> reading US recipes that use cups. Other than that Imperial is brain 
> damaged! And I say that having grown up in the UK to a family which used 
> Imperial all the time in my youth.
> I used to go to the sweet shop and ask for a quarter of a pound of 
> American hard gums!
> 
> I recently watched a US home improvements show and couldn't fathom how 
> anybody could make sense of 1/16th of an inch. I couldn't tell you how 
> many yards to a mile but meters to a KM is simple.
> 
>> On 2020-07-21 9:46 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote:
>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob  
> wrote:
>>> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage. SI 
> is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of 
> "Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or 
> three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics. If 
> you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things 
> about physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too 
> stupid for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
>> For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use 
> anything but SI units. They have precise definitions, and being 
> decimal-based make calculations easier. Not to mention being used 
> world-wide.
>> 
>> For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any 
> other traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their 
> advantages. They evolved because people found them useful. For example, 
> when I’m cooking I could say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close 
> enough for the precision I need) but one cup is simpler. Or if my 
> pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know I’ve gone about a mile. 
> (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of steps”; my pedometer 
> counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans you had to move 
> both before they counted it.)
>> 
>> 
>>> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI. 
> Imagine that.
>> Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.
>> 
>> I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact 
> values for physical constants.
>> 
>> 
>>> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He 
> absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously 
> superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.
>>> 
>>> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but 
> I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time 
> I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is 
> Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. Oddly enough, since 
> they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather 
> than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't 
> tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
>> This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. 
> Fahrenheit is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more precise 
> without having to go to decimals.
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Martin Packer

Then the 440 yard and 880 yard races would've meant nothing to you at 
school. :-)

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com

Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or 
  
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2


Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA



From:   David Crayford 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   21/07/2020 14:58
Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After 
All These Years?
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



I agree that cups are useful! The only time I find Imperial useful is 
reading US recipes that use cups. Other than that Imperial is brain 
damaged! And I say that having grown up in the UK to a family which used 
Imperial all the time in my youth.
I used to go to the sweet shop and ask for a quarter of a pound of 
American hard gums!

I recently watched a US home improvements show and couldn't fathom how 
anybody could make sense of 1/16th of an inch. I couldn't tell you how 
many yards to a mile but meters to a KM is simple.

On 2020-07-21 9:46 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob  
wrote:
>> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage. SI 
is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of 
"Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or 
three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics. If 
you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things 
about physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too 
stupid for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
> For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use 
anything but SI units. They have precise definitions, and being 
decimal-based make calculations easier. Not to mention being used 
world-wide.
>
> For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any 
other traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their 
advantages. They evolved because people found them useful. For example, 
when I’m cooking I could say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close 
enough for the precision I need) but one cup is simpler. Or if my 
pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know I’ve gone about a mile. 
(“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of steps”; my pedometer 
counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans you had to move 
both before they counted it.)
>
>
>> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI. 
Imagine that.
> Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.
>
> I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact 
values for physical constants.
>
>
>> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He 
absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously 
superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.
>>
>> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but 
I have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time 
I say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is 
Celsius degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. Oddly enough, since 
they're exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather 
than Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't 
tell you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
> This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. 
Fahrenheit is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more precise 
without having to go to decimals.
>
>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread David Crayford

I agree that cups are useful! The only time I find Imperial useful is
reading US recipes that use cups. Other than that Imperial is brain
damaged! And I say that having grown up in the UK to a family which used
Imperial all the time in my youth.
I used to go to the sweet shop and ask for a quarter of a pound of
American hard gums!

I recently watched a US home improvements show and couldn't fathom how
anybody could make sense of 1/16th of an inch. I couldn't tell you how
many yards to a mile but meters to a KM is simple.

On 2020-07-21 9:46 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote:

On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob wrote:

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish. Abject garbage. SI is not a fad, despite its
origins. No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;" no fan of anything political.
But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may compute
physics. If you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.
I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics. I'm too stupid for E, although the same
equivalency attempts apply there.

For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use anything but
SI units. They have precise definitions, and being decimal-based make
calculations easier. Not to mention being used world-wide.

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. They
evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m cooking I could
say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for the precision I need)
but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know
I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans
you had to move both before they counted it.)

P.S. Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI. Imagine
that.

Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.

I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact values for
physical constants.

P.P.S. This reminds me of many conversations with my father. He absolutely
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior. I don't
get it. It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot. I say miles and yards; but I have
this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say them.
The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius degrees. I
think in Fahrenheit degrees. Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same
thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees. Maybe
I just like starting at zero. :) I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in
Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. Fahrenheit
is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more precise without having
to go to decimals.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Martin Packer

Measures where the names have other meanings are unhelpful. So "1 cup" 
might be meaningful to a USAn (or someone like me who bought measuring 
spoons/cups in the USA) but it's thoroughly ambiguous.

I notice that USAns don't talk about "stone" (14lbs) so there's only so 
far the non-decimal usefulness goes. :-) Probably they don't talk about 
"hundredweight" or "groats" or "florins" either. :-)

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com

Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or 

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA

From:   "Pew, Curtis G" 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   21/07/2020 14:46
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After 
All These Years?
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 

On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob  
wrote:
> 
> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI 
is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of 
"Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or 
three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics. If 
you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things 
about physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too 
stupid for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use anything 
but SI units. They have precise definitions, and being decimal-based make 
calculations easier. Not to mention being used world-wide.

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other 
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. 
They evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m 
cooking I could say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for 
the precision I need) but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve 
walked 2000 steps I know I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille 
passuum” = “a thousand of steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as 
separate steps but for the Romans you had to move both before they counted 
it.)

> 
> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI. 
Imagine that. 

Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.

I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact values 
for physical constants.

> 
> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He 
absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously 
superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.
> 
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I 
have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I 
say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius 
degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. Oddly enough, since they're 
exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than 
Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell 
you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. 
Fahrenheit is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more precise 
without having to go to decimals.

-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:22 PM, Jackson, Rob  wrote:
> 
> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is 
> not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;" 
> no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a 
> beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, 
> then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  
> I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, 
> although the same equivalency attempts apply there.

For science and engineering I totally agree: you should never use anything but 
SI units. They have precise definitions, and being decimal-based make 
calculations easier. Not to mention being used world-wide.

For everyday life, though, I think American/Imperial units (and any other 
traditional systems that may survive elsewhere) have their advantages. They 
evolved because people found them useful. For example, when I’m cooking I could 
say 250 milliliters or one cup (they’re close enough for the precision I need) 
but one cup is simpler. Or if my pedometer says I’ve walked 2000 steps I know 
I’ve gone about a mile. (“Mile” comes from “mille passuum” = “a thousand of 
steps”; my pedometer counts left and right as separate steps but for the Romans 
you had to move both before they counted it.)

> 
> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.  
> Imagine that. 

Yep. For precision definitions, always use SI.

I think it’s cool that SI units are now defined by specifying exact values for 
physical constants.

> 
> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
> couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
> get it.  It is what it is.
> 
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
> this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say 
> them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius 
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees. Oddly enough, since they're exactly 
> the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius 
> degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what 
> absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

This supports my point about the convenience of traditional units. Fahrenheit 
is more granular than Celsius, so you can be a bit more precise without having 
to go to decimals.

-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-21 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

Mike Schwab wrote:




*Actually, the original gram was 1 cubic centimeter of distilled waterat
4c, making a kilogram 10 cm * 10 cm * 10 cm of distilled water at4c.  Then
they discovered nuclear isotopes that allowed the mass ofwater to vary
between samples.*

There's a logical reason for this. The anomalous expansion of water.
Whoever threw together physics as we know it was a deep thinker.

Water is most dense at 4C. So if you are going to dice up a gram of water
into a cube, at 4c it will occupy a cubic centimetre.

This is very good for the survival of fish when the pond starts to freeze.

This is another proper example of MOVE.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 2:09 PM Jackson, Rob 
wrote:

> Thanks, Mike.  I worry the point will be lost.  -459.67 degrees
> Fahrenheit.  Yup; makes perfect sense.  Slides in so well with the other
> Imperial units.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:59 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
> Absolute 0 is 0K, 0R, -273.15C, -459.67F.
> Freezing point of water is 273.15K, 491.67R, 0C, 32F.
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:23 PM Jackson, Rob 
> wrote:
> >
> > It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.
> >
> > Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in
> slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add
> in a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.
> >
> > American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI
> is not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of
> "Trump;" no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or
> three, is a beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If
> you disagree, then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things
> about physics.  I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too
> stupid for E, although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
> >
> > P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.
> > Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit
> >
> > P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He
> absolutely couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously
> superior.  I don't get it.  It is what it is.
> >
> > As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I
> have this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I
> say them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're
> exactly the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than
> Celsius degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell
> you what absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
> >
> > First Horizon Bank
> > Mainframe Technical Support
> >
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
> >
> > [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> > attachments.]
> >
> > The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say
> all sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité,
> fraternité", but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the
> English system of units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick
> question; it depends on which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton?
> Can you convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > nstructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message:
> > INFO IBM-MAIN Confidentiality notice:
> > This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Jackson, Rob

Thanks, Mike.  I worry the point will be lost.  -459.67 degrees Fahrenheit.  
Yup; makes perfect sense.  Slides in so well with the other Imperial units.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
Absolute 0 is 0K, 0R, -273.15C, -459.67F.
Freezing point of water is 273.15K, 491.67R, 0C, 32F.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:23 PM Jackson, Rob  
wrote:
>
> It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.
>
> Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in 
> slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in 
> a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.
>
> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is 
> not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;" 
> no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a 
> beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, 
> then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  
> I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, 
> although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
>
> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.  
> Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit
>
> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
> couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
> get it.  It is what it is.
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
> this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say 
> them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius 
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're exactly 
> the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius 
> degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what 
> absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening 
> attachments.]
>
> The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
> sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
> but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
> units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
> which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
> fortnight to miles per hour?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> nstructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: 
> INFO IBM-MAIN Confidentiality notice:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally 
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended 
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this 
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly 
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately 
> notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
>
> --
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> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero
Absolute 0 is 0K, 0R, -273.15C, -459.67F.
Freezing point of water is 273.15K, 491.67R, 0C, 32F.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:23 PM Jackson, Rob
 wrote:
>
> It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.
>
> Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in 
> slugs, please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in 
> a grain or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.
>
> American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is 
> not a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;" 
> no fan of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a 
> beautiful system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, 
> then I assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  
> I'm talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, 
> although the same equivalency attempts apply there.
>
> P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.  
> Imagine that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit
>
> P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
> couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
> get it.  It is what it is.
>
> As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
> this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say 
> them.  The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius 
> degrees.  I think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're exactly 
> the same thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius 
> degrees.  Maybe I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what 
> absolute zero in Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.
>
> First Horizon Bank
> Mainframe Technical Support
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]
>
> The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
> sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
> but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
> units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
> which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
> fortnight to miles per hour?
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> nstructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO 
> IBM-MAIN
> Confidentiality notice:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally 
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended 
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this 
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly 
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately 
> notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Jackson, Rob

It disturbs me that I agree with Shmuel three times in as many days.

Tony, what's your mass here lately after Insanity-19?  Let's have it in slugs, 
please, since that's the unit.  Take you a dram and a scruple; add in a grain 
or two for precision, but make sure you convert it to mass.

American standard--Imperial units; they're rubbish.  Abject garbage.  SI is not 
a fad, despite its origins.  No fan of the "French;" no fan of "Trump;" no fan 
of anything political.  But SI, revised a couple times or three, is a beautiful 
system of units in which one may compute physics.  If you disagree, then I 
assert you have a challenge understanding many things about physics.  I'm 
talking about mechanics and fluid dynamics.  I'm too stupid for E, although 
the same equivalency attempts apply there.

P.S.  Apparently Imperial units have been redefined as relative to SI.  Imagine 
that.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Imperial-unit

P.P.S.  This reminds me of many conversations with my father.  He absolutely 
couldn't stand this type of thing, i.e. SI being obviously superior.  I don't 
get it.  It is what it is.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a complete bigot.  I say miles and yards; but I have 
this nasty habit of converting them to meters in my mind every time I say them. 
 The one thing I cannot get used to in every-day life is Celsius degrees.  I 
think in Fahrenheit degrees.  Oddly enough, since they're exactly the same 
thing, I find it easier to talk in Kelvins rather than Celsius degrees.  Maybe 
I just like starting at zero.  :)  I couldn't tell you what absolute zero in 
Fahrenheit is; I guess I never cared.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
fortnight to miles per hour?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

nstructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO 
IBM-MAIN
Confidentiality notice: 
This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally privileged 
and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or 
the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended 
recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or 
copying of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited. If you have received 
this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete this 
e-mail message from your computer.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

These days everybody has disabled the finger port, except on the coke machine.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

And FINGERing each other???
:-)

Tony Thigpen

Seymour J Metz wrote on 7/20/20 9:20 PM:
> IMHO we'd all be better off with Gopher instead of the WWW.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Mike Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 8:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?
>
> Well, at least he didn't claim to be using Archie, or Veronica.
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:20 PM zMan  wrote:
>>
>> Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
>> using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>>
>>> You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
>>> capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
>>> simply
>>> that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
>>> actually.
>>> So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
>>> saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
>>> internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


And FINGERing each other???
:-)

Tony Thigpen

Seymour J Metz wrote on 7/20/20 9:20 PM:

IMHO we'd all be better off with Gopher instead of the WWW.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mike Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 8:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Well, at least he didn't claim to be using Archie, or Veronica.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:20 PM zMan  wrote:


Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:


You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
simply
that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
actually.
So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.



--
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--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

IMHO we'd all be better off with Gopher instead of the WWW.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mike Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 8:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Well, at least he didn't claim to be using Archie, or Veronica.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:20 PM zMan  wrote:
>
> Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
> using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> > You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
> > capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
> > simply
> > that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
> > actually.
> > So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
> > saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
> > internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Well, at least he didn't claim to be using Archie, or Veronica.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:20 PM zMan  wrote:
>
> Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
> using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> > You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
> > capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
> > simply
> > that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
> > actually.
> > So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
> > saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
> > internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread zMan

Not gonna sue you, but you realize AltaVista died in 2003, right? You’re
using Yahoo, whose continued existence is a mystery to all.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:52 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
> capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean
> simply
> that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista,
> actually.
> So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
> saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
> internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.
>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Well, the English Inch and the American inch were both defined as 3
barley corns.  But the lengths were slightly different.  So in 1959
they set the international inch as 25.4 mm, which was between the two
values and less than 1/1000 for the larger change from the old value.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:04 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> This interests me.  I'm sort of on Seymour's side on this one, Tony; I
> learned the metric system in high-school chemistry and mildly prefer it.
> While I gotta admire anyone with the stick-to-it-iveness it takes to call it
> a "fad" after two hundred years and 192 out of 195 countries, I'm persuaded
> by the practical value of decimal units.
>
> You say that's only "a small part of the 'standard' ", but I would have
> said, if asked, that it was the whole point.  What other reason would anyone
> have to adopt SI units?  Well, aside from the 192/195-countries thing, of
> course, which I suppose ain't chopped liver - but that came later, so I
> don't count it.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A ship in harbour is safe.  But that's not what a ship is for. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:38
>
> We are no more immune to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
> Crowds than any other country, and our society has massive conformity in
> many areas. Even many who want to rebel find a marginal group to rebel in
> conformity with. People accept the most ludicrous claims because others in
> their in group accept them. Koolaid, anybody?
>
> As to SI units, there are practical reasons for adopting them.  Do we really
> want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, with the
> same name denoting different quantities depending on context?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:36
>
> This is a fun Monday discussion. :-)
>
> I did not say anything about decimal arithmetic, either for nor against.
> I was discussing this fad called SI and how it was a standard looking
> for a base. The fact that it uses base-10 arithmetic may add to it's
> popularity, but that is only one small part of the 'standard'.
>
> --- Martin Packer wrote on 7/20/20 8:13 AM:
> > So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars
> > and cents? :-)
> >
> > ---
> > From:   Tony Thigpen 
> > Date:   20/07/2020 12:41
> >
> > We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
> > after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
> > something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
> > 'fit' into the new perception of reality.
> >
> > --- Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
> >> Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to
> >> SI units while I was at school in the 1960s.
> >>
> >> Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint
> >> that isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by
> >> 240 lbs.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

The practical value doesn't depend on how it started. Yes, I could say all 
sorts of things about how the mob interpreted "Liberté, égalité, fraternité", 
but it doesn't change the fact that nobody understands the English system of 
units. How many gills in a gallon? (That's a trick question; it depends on 
which kind of gallon.) How many ounces in a ton? Can you convert furlongs per 
fortnight to miles per hour?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 4:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Yes, it started as a 'fad'. If you look at what happened, the French
were beheading all the royalty just because "royalty is bad" and they
wanted a new measurement system because the old one could be traced back
to royalty so therefore that old measurement system was also "bad" by
association.

Sounds like the same thing that happens every season in Paris. The old
clothing is "out" and the new clothing is "in".

Like I said, "fads". (I wonder if the 'f' in fads should stand for
'French'?) :-)

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/20/20 4:03 PM:
> This interests me.  I'm sort of on Seymour's side on this one, Tony; I
> learned the metric system in high-school chemistry and mildly prefer it.
> While I gotta admire anyone with the stick-to-it-iveness it takes to call it
> a "fad" after two hundred years and 192 out of 195 countries, I'm persuaded
> by the practical value of decimal units.
>
> You say that's only "a small part of the 'standard' ", but I would have
> said, if asked, that it was the whole point.  What other reason would anyone
> have to adopt SI units?  Well, aside from the 192/195-countries thing, of
> course, which I suppose ain't chopped liver - but that came later, so I
> don't count it.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* A ship in harbour is safe.  But that's not what a ship is for. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:38
>
> We are no more immune to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
> Crowds than any other country, and our society has massive conformity in
> many areas. Even many who want to rebel find a marginal group to rebel in
> conformity with. People accept the most ludicrous claims because others in
> their in group accept them. Koolaid, anybody?
>
> As to SI units, there are practical reasons for adopting them.  Do we really
> want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, with the
> same name denoting different quantities depending on context?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:36
>
> This is a fun Monday discussion. :-)
>
> I did not say anything about decimal arithmetic, either for nor against.
> I was discussing this fad called SI and how it was a standard looking
> for a base. The fact that it uses base-10 arithmetic may add to it's
> popularity, but that is only one small part of the 'standard'.
>
> --- Martin Packer wrote on 7/20/20 8:13 AM:
>> So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars
>> and cents? :-)
>>
>> ---
>> From:   Tony Thigpen 
>> Date:   20/07/2020 12:41
>>
>> We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
>> after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
>> something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
>> 'fit' into the new perception of reality.
>>
>> --- Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
>>> Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to
>>> SI units while I was at school in the 1960s.
>>>
>>> Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint
>>> that isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by
>>> 240 lbs.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Yes, it started as a 'fad'. If you look at what happened, the French 
were beheading all the royalty just because "royalty is bad" and they 
wanted a new measurement system because the old one could be traced back 
to royalty so therefore that old measurement system was also "bad" by 
association.


Sounds like the same thing that happens every season in Paris. The old 
clothing is "out" and the new clothing is "in".


Like I said, "fads". (I wonder if the 'f' in fads should stand for 
'French'?) :-)


Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/20/20 4:03 PM:

This interests me.  I'm sort of on Seymour's side on this one, Tony; I
learned the metric system in high-school chemistry and mildly prefer it.
While I gotta admire anyone with the stick-to-it-iveness it takes to call it
a "fad" after two hundred years and 192 out of 195 countries, I'm persuaded
by the practical value of decimal units.

You say that's only "a small part of the 'standard' ", but I would have
said, if asked, that it was the whole point.  What other reason would anyone
have to adopt SI units?  Well, aside from the 192/195-countries thing, of
course, which I suppose ain't chopped liver - but that came later, so I
don't count it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A ship in harbour is safe.  But that's not what a ship is for. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:38

We are no more immune to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
Crowds than any other country, and our society has massive conformity in
many areas. Even many who want to rebel find a marginal group to rebel in
conformity with. People accept the most ludicrous claims because others in
their in group accept them. Koolaid, anybody?

As to SI units, there are practical reasons for adopting them.  Do we really
want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, with the
same name denoting different quantities depending on context?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:36

This is a fun Monday discussion. :-)

I did not say anything about decimal arithmetic, either for nor against.
I was discussing this fad called SI and how it was a standard looking
for a base. The fact that it uses base-10 arithmetic may add to it's
popularity, but that is only one small part of the 'standard'.

--- Martin Packer wrote on 7/20/20 8:13 AM:

So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars
and cents? :-)

---
From:   Tony Thigpen 
Date:   20/07/2020 12:41

We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
'fit' into the new perception of reality.

--- Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:

Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to
SI units while I was at school in the 1960s.

Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint
that isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by
240 lbs.


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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Bob Bridges

This interests me.  I'm sort of on Seymour's side on this one, Tony; I
learned the metric system in high-school chemistry and mildly prefer it.
While I gotta admire anyone with the stick-to-it-iveness it takes to call it
a "fad" after two hundred years and 192 out of 195 countries, I'm persuaded
by the practical value of decimal units.

You say that's only "a small part of the 'standard' ", but I would have
said, if asked, that it was the whole point.  What other reason would anyone
have to adopt SI units?  Well, aside from the 192/195-countries thing, of
course, which I suppose ain't chopped liver - but that came later, so I
don't count it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A ship in harbour is safe.  But that's not what a ship is for. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:38

We are no more immune to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of
Crowds than any other country, and our society has massive conformity in
many areas. Even many who want to rebel find a marginal group to rebel in
conformity with. People accept the most ludicrous claims because others in
their in group accept them. Koolaid, anybody?

As to SI units, there are practical reasons for adopting them.  Do we really
want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, with the
same name denoting different quantities depending on context?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 08:36

This is a fun Monday discussion. :-)

I did not say anything about decimal arithmetic, either for nor against. 
I was discussing this fad called SI and how it was a standard looking 
for a base. The fact that it uses base-10 arithmetic may add to it's 
popularity, but that is only one small part of the 'standard'.

--- Martin Packer wrote on 7/20/20 8:13 AM:
> So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars
> and cents? :-)
> 
> ---
> From:   Tony Thigpen 
> Date:   20/07/2020 12:41
> 
> We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
> after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
> something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
> 'fit' into the new perception of reality.
> 
> --- Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
>> Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to
>> SI units while I was at school in the 1960s.
>>
>> Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint
>> that isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by
>> 240 lbs.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Bob Bridges

You had me convinced, Tony :).  I've recently started using "Google",
capitalized, to mean Google, but the lower-case verb "google" to mean simply
that I searched for something on-line.  (By habit I use AltaVista, actually.
So I'm an old fart - so sue me.)  So when I finally noticed that you were
saying "google" and not "Google", I thought maybe you were referring to the
internet generally, not Wikipedia specifically.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The results are astounding.  I've seen the before and after photographs,
and let me tell you, in just a few weeks the women go from having tired,
sagging, wrinkly skin to having a new haircut and expert makeup.  -W Bruce
Cameron, 2010 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 09:59

OK. OK, I now see how I was not communicating it correctly. At one point 
when I was talking about Wikipedia, I started using the term 'google'. 
And, yes, I was incorrect. I intended to be talking about Wikipedia, not 
Google. I guess my age is now showing. :-(

--- Jeremy Nicoll wrote on 7/20/20 9:47 AM:
> Well in that case perhaps you'd care to explain to /me/ what you meant by
> 
>  ... when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
>  just about anything into google.
> 
> I know of no way that I can "write ... anything into google".
> 
> Yes, I could edit a Wikipedia article that google could allow other people
to
> find, but you seem certain that you really DID mean google.
> 
> Please explain.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Actually, the original gram was 1 cubic centimeter of distilled water
at 4c, making a kilogram 10 cm * 10 cm * 10 cm of distilled water at
4c.  Then they discovered nuclear isotopes that allowed the mass of
water to vary between samples.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:41 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:
>
> Wayne,
>
> We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
> after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
> something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
> 'fit' into the new perception of reality.
>
> It is humorous that the meter was originally defined to be one ten
> millionth of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator through
> Paris. Or that the kilogram was originally defined as the mass of a
> man-made artifact of platinum-iridium held in a specific laboratory in
> France. It appears that the whole SI system was a system to make France
> the center of the universe. :-)
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
> Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
> > Current international agreement for all new elements is to end them with
> > -ium.
> >
> > Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to SI
> > units while I was at school in the 1960s.
> >
> > Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint that
> > isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by 240 lbs.
> >
> > And Webster, whilst described as an anglophile gave you center instead of
> > centre, defense instead of defence...
> >
> > Not sure why saying an abacus is a computer makes me insane:) The best
> > joker wore a mask.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:19 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:
> >
> >> Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
> >> almost the same story:
> >>
> >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium
> >>
> >> Tony Thigpen
> >>
> >> Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:
> >>> Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the
> >> great "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more information.
> >> At https://books.google.com/books?id=YjMwYAAJ=PA201 you can find a
> >> page in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first
> >> isolated aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum" (a
> >> metal to be found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).
> >> Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium) says this about the
> >> name:
> >>>
> >>> "British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments
> >> aimed to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the
> >> element. In 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article on
> >> his electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical
> >> Transactions of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by
> >> contemporary chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted the
> >> metal should be named for the oxide, alumina, from which it would be
> >> isolated. In 1812, Davy published a chemistry textbook in which he settled
> >> on the name aluminum, thus producing the modern name. However, its spelling
> >> and pronunciation varies: aluminum is in use in the United States and
> >> Canada while aluminium is in use elsewhere."
> >>>
> >>> That sounds plausible to me.
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >>>
> >>> /* It's ok to doubt your beliefs; but it's not ok to believe your
> >> doubts.  -Jim Snider, pastor, 2000-12-10 */
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Bob Bridges [mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 17:34
> >>>
> >>> Aha!  Yet a third story; in this one Davy started out with "aluminum"
> >> and the Europeans ~added~ the 'i'.
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> >> On Behalf Of Joe Monk
> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 07:22
> >>>
> >>> The British Scientist (Davy) who discovered ALUMINUM named it that. It is
> >>> we Americans who are using the correct name ... the British press felt
> >> that
> >>> it should be in line with sodium and potassium and thus added to the
> >>> spelling.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >
> >
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

OK. OK, I now see how I was not communicating it correctly. At one point 
when I was talking about Wikipedia, I started using the term 'google'. 
And, yes, I was incorrect. I intended to be talking about Wikipedia, not 
Google. I guess my age is now showing. :-(


Tony Thigpen

Jeremy Nicoll wrote on 7/20/20 9:47 AM:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020, at 13:42, Tony Thigpen wrote:

You have missed the point. Twice. Enough said. Not worth the effort.


Well in that case perhaps you'd care to explain to /me/ what you meant by

 ... when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
 just about anything into google.


I know of no way that I can "write ... anything into google".


Yes, I could edit a Wikipedia article that google could allow other people to
find, but you seem certain that you really DID mean google.

Please explain.



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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Mon, 20 Jul 2020, at 13:42, Tony Thigpen wrote:
> You have missed the point. Twice. Enough said. Not worth the effort.

Well in that case perhaps you'd care to explain to /me/ what you meant by 

... when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
just about anything into google.


I know of no way that I can "write ... anything into google".


Yes, I could edit a Wikipedia article that google could allow other people to 
find, but you seem certain that you really DID mean google.

Please explain.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Wikipedia is not google. Google is an attempt at a search engine, and that URL 
is a rwedirect URL that lets google track the use of the link. Some of the 
article on wiki are of high quality. Others? Well, I trust wiki as a source of 
references ;-)


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 7:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Bob,

I was referring to your "Wikipedia
(https://secure-web.cisco.com/1KI3faUsQ4YEpgh7TyZ4fLSApgKA8S4U6_YCt5N7I9n70WHQJlTRhnwY585_ptp9A0THTRBN2o2Rx306X21ywdEePy1x4O_8UxlPcpzs_aP1veOkERadnjzsak0KEEFxEdZKLnoptrQcN2EzhKZIG9JPbcH9K_2aGl8-5a4UuKjiiMGsfbr5UycCe7JnMawJwMf3W2W-BNzH-PwYujuTPsK9JK9JGHHKjFFdVpCCvGZA1i3pz7Kmd3JlQCXrbqgbbeJi9HvtGz_k6UrRZOVwREOVatIdIP4ATkdKMmLYz5EmMqlV-LgbQotYi-hCBm6pLY3ehNRS66ZkWSB74FlkexXgACUIIHFpfseZE5_GuPS_PsxfrWSLdjdzkuqWwpfR2FYA8DzEns3lb49R6U9ofdnkB9IfXpigOuG69R54YnxEjARG3XEcbmSMwY6TLNCmB/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAluminium%29
 says this about the name:"
quote when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
just about anything into google. Most teachers will not allow quotes
from google due to the mess that google is in.

The people at Merrian-Webster have always been considered authoritative.
If we can't trust the people that produce of the the top dictionaries,
then we are lost.

In this case, I was saying that "here is a much more authoritative site
that backs up most of the story posted on google."

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/20/20 2:04 AM:
> Always interesting, if you like words (and I do).  Thanks.
>
> "Google", you say?  Google isn't the source of my information, only the 
> warehouse (so to speak).  The first source I quoted was Mr Davy himself.  But 
> maybe you meant Wikipedia; a lot of people express varying amounts of 
> derision when they hear Wikipedia mentioned.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The arguments against state-controlled churches apply with equal force to 
> state-run schools.  No free society allows the state to claim authority over 
> the mind.  -Joseph Sobran */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
> Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 18:19
>
> Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
> almost the same story:
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1zHQtBmJvC1vVJ0vW-l7ndshrJmSTHAKKvrtUdN8uEe6vxdo1GOUouThBioS83Z0U0bfb4Q5O8Yt8E0ZnP9X6C05s9EsWXz36AyMlvxc-6yK2lncIOIUii4SjSvjCPu5vuv3BCSKNqm4MavRaqdeIeahTGtkdhDkOo-9QvI4o3y-AIZIynL1iSBAjSv6ET1zY0Wnzsh_4-AhgtCYuB7Y1FFtmvSfvNsOEyg-94-Rf8Xw4pPgHLaBq8kCDUG9m7dh0GIeUZEkxMfwrE-XkW6vkojSG7UCcrtypIOw5sGJ6SAqnmn3-Cy37KUwaZ4bwckKs7OJQYmbbReNfe5wkq-nq4Lxddf3NFloCKHcGZ0O9P0phWSkFryRCxuf4dndtiq0FTU_1QgJGxMaA-wuWF1rTaqpMcQh7m5SvsdHAuMeKcRBe877K5k5FQK0OdEGwqPsO9V2rJaJyDr_CGTKaUK6W_Q/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fwords-at-play%2Faluminum-vs-aluminium
>
> --- Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:
>> Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the great 
>> "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more information.  At 
>> https://books.google.com/books?id=YjMwYAAJ=PA201 you can find a page 
>> in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first isolated 
>> aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum" (a metal to be 
>> found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).  Wikipedia 
>> (https://secure-web.cisco.com/1KI3faUsQ4YEpgh7TyZ4fLSApgKA8S4U6_YCt5N7I9n70WHQJlTRhnwY585_ptp9A0THTRBN2o2Rx306X21ywdEePy1x4O_8UxlPcpzs_aP1veOkERadnjzsak0KEEFxEdZKLnoptrQcN2EzhKZIG9JPbcH9K_2aGl8-5a4UuKjiiMGsfbr5UycCe7JnMawJwMf3W2W-BNzH-PwYujuTPsK9JK9JGHHKjFFdVpCCvGZA1i3pz7Kmd3JlQCXrbqgbbeJi9HvtGz_k6UrRZOVwREOVatIdIP4ATkdKMmLYz5EmMqlV-LgbQotYi-hCBm6pLY3ehNRS66ZkWSB74FlkexXgACUIIHFpfseZE5_GuPS_PsxfrWSLdjdzkuqWwpfR2FYA8DzEns3lb49R6U9ofdnkB9IfXpigOuG69R54YnxEjARG3XEcbmSMwY6TLNCmB/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAluminium%29
>>  says this !
 about the name:
>>
>> "British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments aimed 
>> to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the element. In 
>> 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article on his 
>> electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical Transactions 
>> of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by contemporary 
>> chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted the metal should be 
>> named for the oxide, alumina, from whi

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


You have missed the point. Twice. Enough said. Not worth the effort.

Tony Thigpen

Steve Smith wrote on 7/20/20 8:38 AM:

And therefore the question as to what you're talking about.  You seem to be
conflating a search engine with an online encyclopedia for some reason.  So
we're left wondering what it is you really mean.

Wikipedia itself says it's not an academic reference, and actually no
encyclopedia is.  It is adequate for the purposes of IBM-MAIN, however.

sas


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:26 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:


Bob,

I was referring to your "Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium) says this about the name:"
quote when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
just about anything into google. Most teachers will not allow quotes
from google due to the mess that google is in.

The people at Merrian-Webster have always been considered authoritative.
If we can't trust the people that produce of the the top dictionaries,
then we are lost.

In this case, I was saying that "here is a much more authoritative site
that backs up most of the story posted on google."

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/20/20 2:04 AM:

Always interesting, if you like words (and I do).  Thanks.

"Google", you say?  Google isn't the source of my information, only the

warehouse (so to speak).  The first source I quoted was Mr Davy himself.
But maybe you meant Wikipedia; a lot of people express varying amounts of
derision when they hear Wikipedia mentioned.


---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The arguments against state-controlled churches apply with equal

force to state-run schools.  No free society allows the state to claim
authority over the mind.  -Joseph Sobran */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]

On Behalf Of Tony Thigpen

Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 18:19

Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
almost the same story:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium





--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Steve Smith

And therefore the question as to what you're talking about.  You seem to be
conflating a search engine with an online encyclopedia for some reason.  So
we're left wondering what it is you really mean.

Wikipedia itself says it's not an academic reference, and actually no
encyclopedia is.  It is adequate for the purposes of IBM-MAIN, however.

sas


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 7:26 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:

> Bob,
>
> I was referring to your "Wikipedia
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium) says this about the name:"
> quote when I said that google is not an authority. Anybody can write
> just about anything into google. Most teachers will not allow quotes
> from google due to the mess that google is in.
>
> The people at Merrian-Webster have always been considered authoritative.
> If we can't trust the people that produce of the the top dictionaries,
> then we are lost.
>
> In this case, I was saying that "here is a much more authoritative site
> that backs up most of the story posted on google."
>
> Tony Thigpen
>
> Bob Bridges wrote on 7/20/20 2:04 AM:
> > Always interesting, if you like words (and I do).  Thanks.
> >
> > "Google", you say?  Google isn't the source of my information, only the
> warehouse (so to speak).  The first source I quoted was Mr Davy himself.
> But maybe you meant Wikipedia; a lot of people express varying amounts of
> derision when they hear Wikipedia mentioned.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* The arguments against state-controlled churches apply with equal
> force to state-run schools.  No free society allows the state to claim
> authority over the mind.  -Joseph Sobran */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
> > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 18:19
> >
> > Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
> > almost the same story:
> >
> > https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium
> >
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

We are no more immune to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of 
Crowds than any other country, and our society has massive conformity in many 
areas. Even many who want to rebel find a marginal group to rebel in conformity 
with. People accept the most ludicrous claims because others in their in group 
accept them. Koolaid, anybody?

As to SI units, there are practical reasons for adopting them.  Do we really 
want to stick with a system of units that few of us understand, with the same 
name denoting different quantities depending on context?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 7:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

Wayne,

We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
'fit' into the new perception of reality.

It is humorous that the meter was originally defined to be one ten
millionth of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator through
Paris. Or that the kilogram was originally defined as the mass of a
man-made artifact of platinum-iridium held in a specific laboratory in
France. It appears that the whole SI system was a system to make France
the center of the universe. :-)

Tony Thigpen

Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
> Current international agreement for all new elements is to end them with
> -ium.
>
> Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to SI
> units while I was at school in the 1960s.
>
> Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint that
> isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by 240 lbs.
>
> And Webster, whilst described as an anglophile gave you center instead of
> centre, defense instead of defence...
>
> Not sure why saying an abacus is a computer makes me insane:) The best
> joker wore a mask.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:19 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:
>
>> Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
>> almost the same story:
>>
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1pIHfKwEyRKXQ258d6HQn6pXUesJTG2ibsqShT6MRYhV9r4fUKEdk9EpqHJwml6iAcP62SzIC3uZkRzKBr2xFFIvxxdrq3FJOEo5YJpHdsTZL_IkvdhsdpPU_emKLXtEo0jOyWZi52wCFJoHhj57fg6pahAkz7uHKMjYBLrCPzfJH16RCdPZUmdUJv0SpiLPWvn8jpo3ft44amIQPJisLmwO1OOZIG63LdJVOv2kBOiuA2Ipj-_RmUn5F1hCqvWXtHFB_DSXpN6qgLMysEGbxRCQZmOJTQGpy2_xgVa9lJ9gK-tYUGDm0p6-K2y9hhAPN45yb1dspz2Cz13TqP0qZ0OHjYLIEBVaQxmojGC-2VlBIpe-MBFS2ZKWsNddCSJ9YTVE_Q42TOEjLV-e9hzuDQfKzDcBF1IPqnTdgnYvMQfDqc4GDojyBrhcrbMPlu1SBOJwYIYlN4NGPdzFscEshLA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fwords-at-play%2Faluminum-vs-aluminium
>>
>> Tony Thigpen
>>
>> Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:
>>> Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the
>> great "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more information.
>> At https://books.google.com/books?id=YjMwYAAJ=PA201 you can find a
>> page in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first
>> isolated aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum" (a
>> metal to be found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).
>> Wikipedia 
>> (https://secure-web.cisco.com/1o6jW0bqoJQZaMyasPgxtzBf_1f444E0jC_JhX8hRoMJuqwbXVk8hQt14kOFIaHV1WtTiLzRUoR0Veuz7o0GDCSEupyT9FPsCpb-FjYXsZtaEoOd_oUCq--prwLBmDIxl3sPQU6dN3PT0G6KSrj7Oxh3B2stsVoQPwiFnRswppFy89Zg0YgQD4xXrkcxI0-IFFPUvAnNrqtGX2dwdAo02cIdQQskgySknoXpD5je9yGqHXOV5DlltC7iczjDJ45NW67kHGiQ4cRXdwKV7hvNF_sJtT7yOdOGGeHpOfePCkYOBi_qGp4vlrx8JFZcB_2D1t_gi66X_CgDb_0hK5om0PY9ap9gh-SWfoq3TEZIJRX9C7MBC5WYC0AQhqc-0ItOy-So75wqar6z_d0D3x0GxhuimV3l6hrGm3bRD0YMJ1h6RRjkSXmKnPUrFOZlleSuI/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAluminium%29
>>  says this about the
>> name:
>>>
>>> "British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments
>> aimed to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the
>> element. In 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article on
>> his electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical
>> Transactions of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by
>> contemporary chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted the
>> metal should be named for the oxide, alumina, from which it would be
>> isolated. In 1812, Davy published a chemistry textbook in which he settled
>> on the name aluminum, thus producing the modern name. However, its spelling
>> and

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


This is a fun Monday discussion. :-)

I did not say anything about decimal arithmetic, either for nor against. 
I was discussing this fad called SI and how it was a standard looking 
for a base. The fact that it uses base-10 arithmetic may add to it's 
popularity, but that is only one small part of the 'standard'.


Tony Thigpen

Martin Packer wrote on 7/20/20 8:13 AM:

So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars
and cents? :-)

Cheers, Martin (GDAR)

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com

Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or
   
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2



Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA



From:   Tony Thigpen 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   20/07/2020 12:41
Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After
All These Years?
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



Wayne,

We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others
after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on
something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that
'fit' into the new perception of reality.

It is humorous that the meter was originally defined to be one ten
millionth of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator through
Paris. Or that the kilogram was originally defined as the mass of a
man-made artifact of platinum-iridium held in a specific laboratory in
France. It appears that the whole SI system was a system to make France
the center of the universe. :-)

Tony Thigpen

Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:

Current international agreement for all new elements is to end them with
-ium.

Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to

SI

units while I was at school in the 1960s.

Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint

that

isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by 240

lbs.


And Webster, whilst described as an anglophile gave you center instead

of

centre, defense instead of defence...

Not sure why saying an abacus is a computer makes me insane:) The best
joker wore a mask.




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:19 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:


Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
almost the same story:



https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_words-2Dat-2Dplay_aluminum-2Dvs-2Daluminium=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=d8pDAilSCrc1YYJmjeWxtvdn0nnvwLb91ZjhFuTbnY4=



Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:

Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the

great "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more

information.

At

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__books.google.com_books-3Fid-3DYjMwYAAJ-26pg-3DPA201=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=LFMQJaJldrcYU7-Opl-zMJAqNhkfZwMUsGgs1X_N_kU=
  you can find a

page in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first
isolated aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum"

(a

metal to be found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).
Wikipedia (

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Aluminium=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=gpcu8EXVajvDZsGWOQJp093GxumoNwb58qtlFORxwu4=
) says this about the

name:


"British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments

aimed to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the
element. In 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article

on

his electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical
Transactions of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by
contemporary chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted

the

metal should be named for the oxide, alumina, from which it would be
isolated. In 1812, Davy published a chemistry textbook in which he

settled

on the name aluminum, thus producing the modern name. However, its

spelling

and pronunciation varies: aluminum is in use in the United States and
Canada while aluminium is in use elsewhere."


That sounds plausible to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's ok to doubt your beliefs; but it's not ok to believe your

doubts.  -Jim Snider, pastor, 2000-12-10 */


-Original Message-
From: Bob Bridges [mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?

2020-07-20 Thread Martin Packer

So you don't rate decimal arithmetic? :-) So how do you explain dollars 
and cents? :-)

Cheers, Martin (GDAR)

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com

Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or 
  
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2


Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA



From:   Tony Thigpen 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   20/07/2020 12:41
Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After 
All These Years?
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



Wayne,

We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others 
after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on 
something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that 
'fit' into the new perception of reality.

It is humorous that the meter was originally defined to be one ten 
millionth of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator through 
Paris. Or that the kilogram was originally defined as the mass of a 
man-made artifact of platinum-iridium held in a specific laboratory in 
France. It appears that the whole SI system was a system to make France 
the center of the universe. :-)

Tony Thigpen

Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:
> Current international agreement for all new elements is to end them with
> -ium.
> 
> Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to 
SI
> units while I was at school in the 1960s.
> 
> Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint 
that
> isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by 240 
lbs.
> 
> And Webster, whilst described as an anglophile gave you center instead 
of
> centre, defense instead of defence...
> 
> Not sure why saying an abacus is a computer makes me insane:) The best
> joker wore a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:19 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:
> 
>> Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
>> almost the same story:
>>
>> 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_words-2Dat-2Dplay_aluminum-2Dvs-2Daluminium=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=d8pDAilSCrc1YYJmjeWxtvdn0nnvwLb91ZjhFuTbnY4=
 

>>
>> Tony Thigpen
>>
>> Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:
>>> Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the
>> great "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more 
information.
>> At 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__books.google.com_books-3Fid-3DYjMwYAAJ-26pg-3DPA201=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=LFMQJaJldrcYU7-Opl-zMJAqNhkfZwMUsGgs1X_N_kU=
 
 you can find a
>> page in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first
>> isolated aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum" 
(a
>> metal to be found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).
>> Wikipedia (
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Aluminium=DwICaQ=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ=BT2zj1sgx0Ufo7xAfOAn2evt5Ihizark8xEHfcPHsz4=gpcu8EXVajvDZsGWOQJp093GxumoNwb58qtlFORxwu4=
 
) says this about the
>> name:
>>>
>>> "British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments
>> aimed to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the
>> element. In 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article 
on
>> his electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical
>> Transactions of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by
>> contemporary chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted 
the
>> metal should be named for the oxide, alumina, from which it would be
>> isolated. In 1812, Davy published a chemistry textbook in which he 
settled
>> on the name aluminum, thus producing the modern name. However, its 
spelling
>> and pronunciation varies: aluminum is in use in the United States and
>> Canada while aluminium is in use elsewhere."
>>>
>>> That sounds plausible to me.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>>
>>> /* It's ok to doubt your beliefs; but it's not ok to believe your
>> doubts.  -Jim Snider, pastor, 2000-12-10 */
>>>
>>> -Ori

Re: OOBOL and English was Re: Still COBOL After All These Years?


Wayne,

We are an independent sort of people. We don't blindly follow others 
after the latest fad, like SI units. SI units are not really built on 
something real, but instead are a unit that looked for a base item that 
'fit' into the new perception of reality.


It is humorous that the meter was originally defined to be one ten 
millionth of the distance between the North Pole and the Equator through 
Paris. Or that the kilogram was originally defined as the mass of a 
man-made artifact of platinum-iridium held in a specific laboratory in 
France. It appears that the whole SI system was a system to make France 
the center of the universe. :-)


Tony Thigpen

Wayne Bickerdike wrote on 7/20/20 12:50 AM:

Current international agreement for all new elements is to end them with
-ium.

Odd how the USA hangs on to impractical learnings. Even the UK moved to SI
units while I was at school in the 1960s.

Took me a while to get used to a gallon that isn't a gallon and a pint that
isn't a pint (16 oz vs 20 oz.). You also short changed the ton by 240 lbs.

And Webster, whilst described as an anglophile gave you center instead of
centre, defense instead of defence...

Not sure why saying an abacus is a computer makes me insane:) The best
joker wore a mask.




On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:19 AM Tony Thigpen  wrote:


Personally, I prefer a more authoritative source than Google, but it is
almost the same story:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/aluminum-vs-aluminium

Tony Thigpen

Bob Bridges wrote on 7/19/20 6:09 PM:

Because I know you were all breathlessly awaiting the verdict on the

great "aluminum"/"aluminium" controversy, I went to find more information.
At https://books.google.com/books?id=YjMwYAAJ=PA201 you can find a
page in _Elements of Chemical Philosophy_ by Humphrey Davy (who first
isolated aluminum), published in 1812; here he talks about "aluminum" (a
metal to be found in alumina, which in turn was processed from alum).
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium) says this about the
name:


"British chemist Humphry Davy, who performed a number of experiments

aimed to isolate the metal, is credited as the person who named the
element. In 1808, he suggested the metal be named alumium in an article on
his electrochemical research which was published in Philosophical
Transactions of the Royal Society. This suggestion was criticized by
contemporary chemists from France, Germany, and Sweden, who insisted the
metal should be named for the oxide, alumina, from which it would be
isolated. In 1812, Davy published a chemistry textbook in which he settled
on the name aluminum, thus producing the modern name. However, its spelling
and pronunciation varies: aluminum is in use in the United States and
Canada while aluminium is in use elsewhere."


That sounds plausible to me.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's ok to doubt your beliefs; but it's not ok to believe your

doubts.  -Jim Snider, pastor, 2000-12-10 */


-Original Message-
From: Bob Bridges [mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 17:34

Aha!  Yet a third story; in this one Davy started out with "aluminum"

and the Europeans ~added~ the 'i'.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]

On Behalf Of Joe Monk

Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2020 07:22

The British Scientist (Davy) who discovered ALUMINUM named it that. It is
we Americans who are using the correct name ... the British press felt

that

it should be in line with sodium and potassium and thus added to the
spelling.

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