Re: glitches installing and starting Leo

[andyjim]

one more question and I'll try to leave you alone:
I use Bike, an outlining editor. The file extension is .bike
Can I represent an external Bike file in a Leo outline and from that Leo 
outline can I open the external file in the Bike application? 
On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 9:20:40 PM UTC-4 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> It's something Qt on the Mac does automatically.  You have to go to some 
> trouble to prevent it.
>
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 7:55:42 PM UTC-4 andyjim wrote:
>
>> OK, in Mac the menu bar is at top of screen, not in the Leo window. True 
>> of all apps in Mac, I just wasn't expecting that in Leo and was looking for 
>> it in the Leo window. So that little glitch is solved and I'll continue 
>> getting acquainted.
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 11:23:14 AM UTC-4 andyjim wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Edward and tbp1 (Thomas, is it?) 
>>> I just rolled the dice and figured it shouldn't hurt to just install 
>>> again.
>>> I used:  python -m pip install Leo
>>> It ran through install apparently without a hitch
>>> I launched with: leo  (not ``leo``)
>>> Leo launched, but no menu bar. Also got TypeError. Here is the whole 
>>> output:
>>>
>>>- 
>>>
>>>setting leoID from os.getenv('USER'): 'andy'
>>>
>>>Leo 6.7.8
>>>
>>>Python 3.9.19, PyQt version 6.7.0
>>>
>>>darwin
>>>
>>>load_session Ignoring invalid session unl: 
>>>'unl:gnx:///Users/andy/.leo/workbook.leo#andy.20240513222826.1'
>>>
>>>qt.qpa.fonts: Populating font family aliases took 355 ms. Replace 
>>>uses of missing font family "DejaVu Sans Mono" with one that exists to 
>>>avoid this cost. 
>>>
>>>unexpected error creating: None
>>>
>>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>
>>>
>>>  File 
>>>
>>> "/opt/miniconda3/lib/python3.9/site-packages/leo/commands/spellCommands.py",
>>>  
>>>line 65, in create
>>>
>>>f = open(fn, mode='wb')
>>>
>>>
>>>- 
>>>
>>>
>>>TypeError: expected str, bytes or os.PathLike object, not NoneType
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>- 
>>>
>>>I'll go ahead and get acquainted with it and see how she rolls from 
>>>here. It would be nice to have a menu bar though.
>>>
>>>Sorry I didn't figure out how to change the format/font back after 
>>>the copy paste.
>>>
>>>
>>>Andy
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 10:33:36 AM UTC-4 Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 8:50 AM Thomas Passin  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's a little hard to help with Mac-related problems because most of 
>>>>> the developer-minded people (like Edward and myself) don't have Macs to 
>>>>> try 
>>>>> things out on.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do have a Mac, but I have been lax about testing. I typically update 
>>>> Leo using git.
>>>>
>>>> I've just made a note to myself about testing a clean MacOS install.
>>>>
>>>> Edward
>>>>
>>>

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Re: glitches installing and starting Leo

[andyjim]

OK, in Mac the menu bar is at top of screen, not in the Leo window. True of 
all apps in Mac, I just wasn't expecting that in Leo and was looking for it 
in the Leo window. So that little glitch is solved and I'll continue 
getting acquainted.

On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 11:23:14 AM UTC-4 andyjim wrote:

> Thanks Edward and tbp1 (Thomas, is it?) 
> I just rolled the dice and figured it shouldn't hurt to just install again.
> I used:  python -m pip install Leo
> It ran through install apparently without a hitch
> I launched with: leo  (not ``leo``)
> Leo launched, but no menu bar. Also got TypeError. Here is the whole 
> output:
>
>- 
>
>setting leoID from os.getenv('USER'): 'andy'
>
>Leo 6.7.8
>
>Python 3.9.19, PyQt version 6.7.0
>
>darwin
>
>load_session Ignoring invalid session unl: 
>'unl:gnx:///Users/andy/.leo/workbook.leo#andy.20240513222826.1'
>
>qt.qpa.fonts: Populating font family aliases took 355 ms. Replace uses 
>of missing font family "DejaVu Sans Mono" with one that exists to avoid 
>this cost. 
>
>unexpected error creating: None
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>
>
>  File 
>
> "/opt/miniconda3/lib/python3.9/site-packages/leo/commands/spellCommands.py", 
>line 65, in create
>
>f = open(fn, mode='wb')
>
>
>- 
>
>
>TypeError: expected str, bytes or os.PathLike object, not NoneType
>
>
>
>
>
>- 
>
>I'll go ahead and get acquainted with it and see how she rolls from 
>here. It would be nice to have a menu bar though.
>
>Sorry I didn't figure out how to change the format/font back after the 
>copy paste.
>
>
>Andy
>
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 10:33:36 AM UTC-4 Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 8:50 AM Thomas Passin  wrote:
>>
>>> It's a little hard to help with Mac-related problems because most of the 
>>> developer-minded people (like Edward and myself) don't have Macs to try 
>>> things out on.  
>>
>>
>> I do have a Mac, but I have been lax about testing. I typically update 
>> Leo using git.
>>
>> I've just made a note to myself about testing a clean MacOS install.
>>
>> Edward
>>
>

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Re: glitches installing and starting Leo

[andyjim]

Thanks Edward and tbp1 (Thomas, is it?) 
I just rolled the dice and figured it shouldn't hurt to just install again.
I used:  python -m pip install Leo
It ran through install apparently without a hitch
I launched with: leo  (not ``leo``)
Leo launched, but no menu bar. Also got TypeError. Here is the whole output:

   - 
   
   setting leoID from os.getenv('USER'): 'andy'
   
   Leo 6.7.8
   
   Python 3.9.19, PyQt version 6.7.0
   
   darwin
   
   load_session Ignoring invalid session unl: 
   'unl:gnx:///Users/andy/.leo/workbook.leo#andy.20240513222826.1'
   
   qt.qpa.fonts: Populating font family aliases took 355 ms. Replace uses 
   of missing font family "DejaVu Sans Mono" with one that exists to avoid 
   this cost. 
   
   unexpected error creating: None
   
   Traceback (most recent call last):
   
   
 File 
   "/opt/miniconda3/lib/python3.9/site-packages/leo/commands/spellCommands.py", 
   line 65, in create
   
   f = open(fn, mode='wb')
   
   
   TypeError: expected str, bytes or os.PathLike object, not NoneType
   
   
   
   I'll go ahead and get acquainted with it and see how she rolls from 
   here. It would be nice to have a menu bar though.
   
   Sorry I didn't figure out how to change the format/font back after the 
   copy paste.
   
   
   Andy
   
On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 10:33:36 AM UTC-4 Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 8:50 AM Thomas Passin  wrote:
>
>> It's a little hard to help with Mac-related problems because most of the 
>> developer-minded people (like Edward and myself) don't have Macs to try 
>> things out on.  
>
>
> I do have a Mac, but I have been lax about testing. I typically update Leo 
> using git.
>
> I've just made a note to myself about testing a clean MacOS install.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: glitches installing and starting Leo

[andyjim]

I spoke from frustration, sir. I should not complain so loudly on day one.
No I don't have the complete message. Should I uninstall and start over? If 
so, how do I uninstall?
And is there a more likely install path than what I used:
I tried miniconda first (seemed simplest), then brew. Sorry, I don't have 
record of the breakdown of those two install attempts.

On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 7:06:44 AM UTC-4 Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 7:46 AM andyjim  wrote:
>
> > Leo seems like a tough road for a non-techie.
>
> My apologies. It shouldn't the *that* tough :-)
>
> > It was a challenge just installing it (on Mac 14.4.1), and Terminal 
> gave me an error:
>
> > TypeError: expected str, bytes or os.PathLike object, not NoneType 
>
> In the future, it's good to record the entire console message. That will 
> tell me where the problem lies.
>
> Do you have a copy of the console message?
>
> The other problems you report may have been the result of the TypeError.
>
> Edward
>

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glitches installing and starting Leo

[andyjim]

   
   - 
   
   I am not a techie, but I want to try using Leo as an organizer. I may 
   try building something like Johnny Decimal type indexing in Leo to organize 
   files, and use an external app for my actual journaling (Bike Outliner), 
   since as I understand it Leo can organize files and I can open them in 
   their native app from Leo.
   - 
   
   My use case is notes and files organization, journaling, hopefully 
   writing a book. Leo seems like a tough road for a non-techie. It was a 
   challenge just installing it (on Mac 14.4.1), and Terminal gave me an error:
   - 
   
   TypeError: expected str, bytes or os.PathLike object, not NoneType
   - 
   
   I don’t know what it means or what to do about it.
   - 
   
   After Python installation (I failed with miniconda and with brew) Leo 
   launched with ``Leo``, but with the same error as above.
   - 
   
   On Leo startup there was no menu bar in the main window and I somehow 
   managed to lose the icon area.
   - 
   
   Next day now, I cannot start it with ``leo`` (zsh: command not found) 
   and I don’t know how to start it.
   
   I had Leo a few years ago (don't recall what version) and as I recall it 
   started from a desktop icon, not from terminal.
   

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

I've messed around so much now that I forget if I used homebrew to install 
python3.9. Mind has poor retention these days, specially since I'm over my 
head in these waters anyway. Should take notes.  Is there a way I can get a 
history of terminal commands to see what I've done?
I did decide not to try homebrew to install Leo, but did it with python3.9, 
being sort of fed up with homebrew since it seemed to mess me up pretty 
good.
Well, thanks much for all your help.  I'll keep wrestling with it.  Might 
be getting another used Mac given to me in a couple of weeks, so may have 
the opportunity to start fresh.

On Sunday, December 20, 2020 at 1:27:12 PM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> I don't think I can help you much here, not having a Mac to try things out 
> with. I can see something is going wrong, because something is expecting to 
> find a Python3.7 version and run it during the install, but not finding 
> it.  You are running the install with Python 3.9, so Python 3.7 shouldn't 
> be getting invoked.  This makes me think that Python 3.7 is being invoked 
> by some script that perhaps is trying to use an old (now non-existent) 
> default version of Python.
>
> You could look for all versions of Python on your system with:
>
> find  / -name python*  -type f 2>/dev/null |grep /bin/
>
> This will give you a lot of hits, most of which will be of no interest.  
> You might find some path that looks similar to the one that didn't exist, 
> but with a different version:
>
> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python
>  
>
>
> The Cellar is a location created by Homebrew, so something about Homebrew 
> must be using a broken script.  But I don't have any knowledge about this 
> subject.  Did you use Homebrew to install Python 3.9?  If not, this might 
> be the cause of the problems, even if I don't see why just now.  I would 
> say that the chances are good that some environmental variable is being set 
> wrong and that some script is using it.  How to fix that is not something I 
> can answer.
>
> It could be time to go to the Homebrew site and ask how to straighten this 
> out.  Alternatively maybe the Python site might be a good choice.  Someone 
> there probably knows a lot about installing with Homebrew on a Mac.
> On Sunday, December 20, 2020 at 12:13:32 PM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>
>> I am finally making some progress.  Seems something got broken in my 
>> system and I don’t quite have it fully repaired yet.  The following might 
>> give the best clues as to what I need to do.  After finally getting pip 
>> upgraded, and learning that I have to use $ python3.9 command in the 
>> terminal, every time, I was finally able to start installing Leo 6.3 (I 
>> think my old version was 5.6 or something).  But it seems even Python3.9 is 
>> looking the wrong place for something.  Not sure what I need to do next, 
>> and how to make sure Python3.9 runs the show top to bottom.
>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ pip --version
>> -bash: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/pip: 
>> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/:
>>  
>> bad interpreter: No such file or directory [This is after finally 
>> successfully upgrading pip, but $ pip --version  command could not find]
>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip --version
>> pip 20.3.3 from 
>> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/lib/python3.9/site-packages/pip
>>  
>> (python 3.9) 
>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip install leo
>> Collecting leo
>>   Downloading leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl (9.7 MB)
>>  || 9.7 MB 6.4 kB/s 
>> Collecting PyQt5>=5.12
>>   Downloading 
>> PyQt5-5.15.2-5.15.2-cp35.cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-macosx_10_13_intel.whl 
>> (47.6 MB)
>>  || 47.6 MB 761 kB/s 
>> Collecting PyQt5-sip<13,>=12.8
>>   Downloading PyQt5_sip-12.8.1-cp39-cp39-macosx_10_9_x86_64.whl (63 kB)
>>  || 63 kB 428 kB/s 
>> Collecting pyshortcuts>=1.7
>>   Downloading pyshortcuts-1.8.0.tar.gz (933 kB)
>>  || 933 kB 759 kB/s 
>> ERROR: Error [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
>> '/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python'
>>  
>> while executing command python setup.py egg_info
>> ERROR: Could not install packages due to an EnvironmentError: [Errno 2] 
>> No such file or directory: 
>> '/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python'
>>
>> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 1:20:39 

Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

I am finally making some progress.  Seems something got broken in my system 
and I don’t quite have it fully repaired yet.  The following might give the 
best clues as to what I need to do.  After finally getting pip upgraded, 
and learning that I have to use $ python3.9 command in the terminal, every 
time, I was finally able to start installing Leo 6.3 (I think my old 
version was 5.6 or something).  But it seems even Python3.9 is looking the 
wrong place for something.  Not sure what I need to do next, and how to 
make sure Python3.9 runs the show top to bottom.
Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ pip --version
-bash: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/pip: 
/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/: 
bad interpreter: No such file or directory [This is after finally 
successfully upgrading pip, but $ pip --version  command could not find]
Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip --version
pip 20.3.3 from 
/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/lib/python3.9/site-packages/pip
 
(python 3.9) 
Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip install leo
Collecting leo
  Downloading leo-6.3-py3-none-any.whl (9.7 MB)
 || 9.7 MB 6.4 kB/s 
Collecting PyQt5>=5.12
  Downloading 
PyQt5-5.15.2-5.15.2-cp35.cp36.cp37.cp38.cp39-abi3-macosx_10_13_intel.whl 
(47.6 MB)
 || 47.6 MB 761 kB/s 
Collecting PyQt5-sip<13,>=12.8
  Downloading PyQt5_sip-12.8.1-cp39-cp39-macosx_10_9_x86_64.whl (63 kB)
 || 63 kB 428 kB/s 
Collecting pyshortcuts>=1.7
  Downloading pyshortcuts-1.8.0.tar.gz (933 kB)
 || 933 kB 759 kB/s 
ERROR: Error [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python'
 
while executing command python setup.py egg_info
ERROR: Could not install packages due to an EnvironmentError: [Errno 2] No 
such file or directory: 
'/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python'

On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> You left off the "m":
>
> python3.9 -m leo.core.runLeo
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:39:21 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>
>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 - leo.core.runLeo
>> Python 3.9.1 (v3.9.1:1e5d33e9b9, Dec  7 2020, 12:44:01) 
>> [Clang 12.0.0 (clang-1200.0.32.27)] on darwin
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>> >>> 
>>
>> not sure what's supposed to happen here
>>
>> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:51:45 AM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:30:29 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Despite the glitch with pip, it appears I have python3.9, so I went 
>>>>> ahead with:
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python 3.9 - leo.core.runLeo python: can't open 
>>>>> file '3.9': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
>>>>>
>>>>  No space after "python" - use python3.9. The way you typed it, Python 
>>> tried to open a file named "3.9".
>>>
>>> There was no glitch with pip.  It's just telling you that there is an 
>>> update available for pip itself, not that anything is wrong.  Update it 
>>> when it's convenient; the message tells you the command line to use.
>>>
>>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

so I did "help()", then, "modules" and got long list but nothing called 
"leo"

On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:39:21 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:

> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 - leo.core.runLeo
> Python 3.9.1 (v3.9.1:1e5d33e9b9, Dec  7 2020, 12:44:01) 
> [Clang 12.0.0 (clang-1200.0.32.27)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> 
>
> not sure what's supposed to happen here
>
> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:51:45 AM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:30:29 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>>
>>> Despite the glitch with pip, it appears I have python3.9, so I went 
>>>> ahead with:
>>>>
>>>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python 3.9 - leo.core.runLeo python: can't open 
>>>> file '3.9': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
>>>>
>>>  No space after "python" - use python3.9. The way you typed it, Python 
>> tried to open a file named "3.9".
>>
>> There was no glitch with pip.  It's just telling you that there is an 
>> update available for pip itself, not that anything is wrong.  Update it 
>> when it's convenient; the message tells you the command line to use.
>>
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 - leo.core.runLeo
Python 3.9.1 (v3.9.1:1e5d33e9b9, Dec  7 2020, 12:44:01) 
[Clang 12.0.0 (clang-1200.0.32.27)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> 

not sure what's supposed to happen here

On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:51:45 AM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:30:29 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>
>> Despite the glitch with pip, it appears I have python3.9, so I went ahead 
>>> with:
>>>
>>> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python 3.9 - leo.core.runLeo python: can't open 
>>> file '3.9': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
>>>
>>  No space after "python" - use python3.9. The way you typed it, Python 
> tried to open a file named "3.9".
>
> There was no glitch with pip.  It's just telling you that there is an 
> update available for pip itself, not that anything is wrong.  Update it 
> when it's convenient; the message tells you the command line to use.
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

sorry about the mess there, I don't know how to edit after I've posted

On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 9:27:42 AM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:

> Especially us newbies! Thanks all. Here's what I've got so far:
>
> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.6 -m pip list -bash: python3.6: command not 
> found Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.7 -m pip list -bash: python3.7: command 
> not found Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip list Package Version
>
> pip 20.2.3 setuptools 49.2.1 WARNING: You are using pip version 20.2.3; 
> however, version 20.3.3 is available. You should consider upgrading via 
> the 
> '/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python
>  
> -m pip install --upgrade pip' command. Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ 
> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python
>  
> -m pip install --upgrade pip -bash: 
> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python:
>  
> No such file or directory Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ 
> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.9/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/python
>  
> -m pip install --upgrade pip -bash: 
> /usr/local/Cellar/python/3.9/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/python:
>  
> No such file or directory Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python --version Python 
> 2.7.14 :: Anaconda, Inc.
>
> Despite the glitch with pip, it appears I have python3.9, so I went ahead 
> with:
>
> Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python 3.9 - leo.core.runLeo python: can't open file 
> '3.9': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
> On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 8:27:09 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 7:26 AM tbp1...@gmail.com  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> :) We all need help sometimes, don't we?
>>>
>>
>> Definitely!
>>
>> Edward
>>
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

Especially us newbies! Thanks all. Here's what I've got so far:

Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.6 -m pip list -bash: python3.6: command not 
found Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.7 -m pip list -bash: python3.7: command 
not found Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python3.9 -m pip list Package Version

pip 20.2.3 setuptools 49.2.1 WARNING: You are using pip version 20.2.3; 
however, version 20.3.3 is available. You should consider upgrading via the 
'/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python
 
-m pip install --upgrade pip' command. Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ 
/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python
 
-m pip install --upgrade pip -bash: 
/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.7.6_1/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.7/bin/python:
 
No such file or directory Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ 
/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.9/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/python
 
-m pip install --upgrade pip -bash: 
/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.9/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/3.9/bin/python:
 
No such file or directory Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python --version Python 
2.7.14 :: Anaconda, Inc.

Despite the glitch with pip, it appears I have python3.9, so I went ahead 
with:

Andrews-iMac:~ jam$ python 3.9 - leo.core.runLeo python: can't open file 
'3.9': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 8:27:09 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 7:26 AM tbp1...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
>> :) We all need help sometimes, don't we?
>>
>
> Definitely!
>
> Edward
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

Tom, you have saved my bacon. .leoRecentFiles found the missing file, 7 
directories deep at usr/local/lib/python3.7/site-packages/Leo/doc/. The 
file appears uncorrupted, but it seems to be the only copy of that file 
anywhere on the system. I have made another copy now. And python3.7 is 
present, although I think python3.9 supplanted it when I installed it. 
Doesn 't matter I guess, as presumably Leo and Python will find each other.

Now to reinstall Leo and implement a sensible strategy with leo files. 
Here's what I get with pip install leo:

jam$ pip install leo 

Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Users/jam/anaconda2/bin/pip", 
line 7, in  from pip.*internal.main import main ImportError: No 
module named pip.*internal.main

Where do I go from here? Thanks.


On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:16:24 AM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> The most obvious thing would be that you never saved it, just kept it open 
> in Leo since March.  But that seems pretty far-fetched.  So let's hope that 
> the correct .leo file has another name!  I tend to hit Save when I have an 
> idle moment.  I also keep a USB backup drive connected all the time, and 
> backup my work directories to it fairly often.  Less commonly, I sometimes 
> put a .leo file in my on-disk Mercurial repository (which is Windows only, 
> so far as I know).  But that doesn't always do the job, especially when 
> much of the work is in @file trees.
>
> Also, I wouldn't be keeping my .leo files in ~/.leo, since that is written 
> to by Leo and who knows what might happen to it sometime if Leo or an Leo 
> installer burps.  What I usually do these days is to create a new .leo file 
> in a project tree I'm working on.  Then I symlink all those .leo files to a 
> standard directory, like (for linux) ~/leo_outlines.  This way, I don't 
> have to remember where all my .leo files are, since I can just go to the 
> leo_outlines directory to find them.
>
> I realize that none of these musings will help you right now.  But going 
> forward once you recover, maybe they might help.
>
> If it were me, I'd search my whole drive for .leo files first, and then 
> grep through them later. It would save a lot of time:
>
> find / -name *.leo -type f 2>/dev/null # or find ~ ...
>
> Also, if you can get Leo reinstalled, the file might show up on the recent 
> files list - and you might recognize the file name there.  Actually, maybe 
> the recent file list is still there and uncorrupted:
>
> ~/.leo/.leoRecentFiles.txt
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 10:50:17 PM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>
>> no, my files were/are in Users/jam/.leo  There are a few .leo files 
>> there, but the only one that might be it (the primary file I wrote in since 
>> March) has only March entries in it.  Confusing. Mac Finder says it was 
>> created, last modified and last opened at 7:39pm on March 31.  Seems 
>> strange.  I stopped paying attention to the name of the file, Leo just 
>> opened it every day and I continued writing in it, not thinking about the 
>> name, so I cannot be certain the March 31 file I find is it, but if so, 
>> it's somehow lost all data since March 31.  Other leo system files in that 
>> directory are dated 12-12-2020, which is the day this happened, so that 
>> appears to be the active leo directory at the time.
>> My focus now is on finding that file.  It's more important than what went 
>> wrong.  I currently have a grep search going for a text phrase that I know 
>> is in the file (but can be in several others as well)  Been going for 
>> several hours only on the Users/jam directory.  It has so far found seven 
>> files containing the phrase, none of which contain the lost data.
>> Could the March 31 file have gotten corrupted, fragmented?  If so, it 
>> seems I should still be able to find the raw data on the drive.  I lost an 
>> important file five years ago, on Windows at the time, and was fortunate 
>> enough to  locate the data on the drive with a specialized data finding 
>> program.  Anyone know of a good one for Mac?  I'll see if I can find that 
>> program again but don't know if it works on Mac.
>> On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 7:47:10 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 7:08 PM tbp1...@gmail.com  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your actual .leo files are probably still there, where ever they were 
>>>> before.  You could look for them with find.  Then after getting Leo 
>>>> reinstalled, you should be good to go.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. You didn't store .leo files in usr/local/opt did you?
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

no, my files were/are in Users/jam/.leo  There are a few .leo files there, 
but the only one that might be it (the primary file I wrote in since March) 
has only March entries in it.  Confusing. Mac Finder says it was created, 
last modified and last opened at 7:39pm on March 31.  Seems strange.  I 
stopped paying attention to the name of the file, Leo just opened it every 
day and I continued writing in it, not thinking about the name, so I cannot 
be certain the March 31 file I find is it, but if so, it's somehow lost all 
data since March 31.  Other leo system files in that directory are dated 
12-12-2020, which is the day this happened, so that appears to be the 
active leo directory at the time.
My focus now is on finding that file.  It's more important than what went 
wrong.  I currently have a grep search going for a text phrase that I know 
is in the file (but can be in several others as well)  Been going for 
several hours only on the Users/jam directory.  It has so far found seven 
files containing the phrase, none of which contain the lost data.
Could the March 31 file have gotten corrupted, fragmented?  If so, it seems 
I should still be able to find the raw data on the drive.  I lost an 
important file five years ago, on Windows at the time, and was fortunate 
enough to  locate the data on the drive with a specialized data finding 
program.  Anyone know of a good one for Mac?  I'll see if I can find that 
program again but don't know if it works on Mac.
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 7:47:10 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 7:08 PM tbp1...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
>> Your actual .leo files are probably still there, where ever they were 
>> before.  You could look for them with find.  Then after getting Leo 
>> reinstalled, you should be good to go.
>>
>
> I agree. You didn't store .leo files in usr/local/opt did you?
>
> Edward
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

no, my files were/are in Users/jam/.leo  There are a few .leo files there, 
but the only one that might be it (the primary file I wrote in since March) 
has only March entries in it.  Confusing. Mac Finder says it was created, 
last modified and last opened at 7:39pm on March 31.  Seems strange.  I 
stopped paying attention to the name of the file, Leo just opened it every 
day and I continued writing in it, not thinking about the name, so I cannot 
be certain the March 31 file I find is it, but if so, it's somehow lost all 
data since March 31.  Other leo system files in that directory are dated 
12-12-2020, which is the day this happened, so that appears to be the 
active leo directory at the time.
My focus now is on finding that file.  It's more important than what went 
wrong.  I currently have a grep search going for a text phrase that I know 
is in the file (but can be in several others as well)  Been going for 
several hours only on the Users/jam directory.  It has so far found seven 
files containing the phrase, none of which contain the lost data.
Could the March 31 file have gotten corrupted, fragmented?  If so, it seems 
I should still be able to find the raw data on the drive.  I lost an 
important file five years ago, on Windows at the time, and was fortunate 
enough to  locate the data on the drive with a specialized data finding 
program.  Anyone know of a good one for Mac?  I'll see if I can find that 
program again but don't know if it works on Mac.
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 7:47:10 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 7:08 PM tbp1...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
>> Your actual .leo files are probably still there, where ever they were 
>> before.  You could look for them with find.  Then after getting Leo 
>> reinstalled, you should be good to go.
>>
>
> I agree. You didn't store .leo files in usr/local/opt did you?
>
> Edward
>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

$ leo  gives: jam$ leo
-bash: /usr/local/bin/leo: /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7: bad 
interpreter: No such file or directory

On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 8:41:31 PM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:

> I may have lost python.  $ python --version yields:  Python 2.7.14 :: 
> Anaconda, Inc.
> Thought I was supposed to have python 3.x  Tried to install 3.9 from 
> Python. Says it's installed but doesn't seem to be.
> should I just run a leo install anyway? What install command should I 
> use?  MacOS
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 8:08:24 PM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Your actual .leo files are probably still there, where ever they were 
>> before.  You could look for them with find.  Then after getting Leo 
>> reinstalled, you should be good to go.
>>
>> Otherwise, there's always the backups :)
>>
>> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 7:42:01 PM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>>
>>> I updated brew.  It took an hour or more. After the smoke cleared, Leo 
>>> was gone.  Would not launch (from icon), and I get this error: 
>>> /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7 /usr/local/bin/leo 
>>> -bash: /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7: No such file or directory
>>> Likely I have made things worse in my naive, thrashing attempts to fix 
>>> it.  
>>> At the very least I need to recover the text data in my leo files but 
>>> don't know how to do that.
>>>
>>

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Re: lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

I may have lost python.  $ python --version yields:  Python 2.7.14 :: 
Anaconda, Inc.
Thought I was supposed to have python 3.x  Tried to install 3.9 from 
Python. Says it's installed but doesn't seem to be.
should I just run a leo install anyway? What install command should I use?  
MacOS

On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 8:08:24 PM UTC-5 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> Your actual .leo files are probably still there, where ever they were 
> before.  You could look for them with find.  Then after getting Leo 
> reinstalled, you should be good to go.
>
> Otherwise, there's always the backups :)
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 7:42:01 PM UTC-5 andyjim wrote:
>
>> I updated brew.  It took an hour or more. After the smoke cleared, Leo 
>> was gone.  Would not launch (from icon), and I get this error: 
>> /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7 /usr/local/bin/leo 
>> -bash: /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7: No such file or directory
>> Likely I have made things worse in my naive, thrashing attempts to fix 
>> it.  
>> At the very least I need to recover the text data in my leo files but 
>> don't know how to do that.
>>
>

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lost my leo and much data with it

[andyjim]

I updated brew.  It took an hour or more. After the smoke cleared, Leo was 
gone.  Would not launch (from icon), and I get this error: 
/usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7 /usr/local/bin/leo 
-bash: /usr/local/opt/python/bin/python3.7: No such file or directory
Likely I have made things worse in my naive, thrashing attempts to fix it.  
At the very least I need to recover the text data in my leo files but don't 
know how to do that.

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Re: font size shrank

[andyjim]

I closed and reopened Leo.  Should have thought to try that.  It worked.

btheado I'm on an iMac. I must have done something to cause it, but I dunno 
what.

Thanks, 
Andy

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font size shrank

[andyjim]

All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find the 
font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small size.  
Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files I have 
open. The other five files are as usual.
I do not know how to correct this.

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Re: recover deleted node

[andyjim]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Probably not.  If you hadn't saved the outline after the delete, then you 
> could have closed it without saving and then reloaded it again.  You would 
> have lost your work since the last save, but the node would have been there.
>

No I did NOT save after the delete. Undo does not work from the menu, but 
Cmd-Z worked. I guess on Mac, Command is Control.

So I've got the lost node back.  Thanks all for the help.

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Re: recover deleted node

[andyjim]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 1:49:26 PM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> delete-node is undoable, so undo should recover the node.
>
> Edward
>

It says "Can't undo".  No help from "Refresh from disk" or "Revert to 
saved"? 

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Re: recover deleted node

[andyjim]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 10:25:25 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> Deleting a node is undoable. If you then close Leo, the only way to undo 
> your change is git checkout.
>
> Edward
>

I have not closed Leo since deleting, and I have not saved the file since 
deleting. So is that node still in the file on disk?
And if so, can I use "refresh from disk" or "revert to saved"? Which?

I am not familiar with git checkout. (not familiar with git, though I sorta 
know what it is)

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recover deleted node

[andyjim]

I deleted a node I didn't mean to delete.

I assume revert/refresh is the way to recover that, but what is the 
difference between "Refresh from disk" and "Revert to saved"?

Or is there a direct way to recover it? (can't undo)

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:43:08 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> A zettel thought experiment.
> ...
> So in about five minutes we have wandered from a dinner recipe to paleo 
> history to philosophical questions about the meaning and stability of 
> sensory perceptions.  We've actually come up with several possible research 
> projects and a topic for a philosophical essay.  All in about five minutes.
>
> All this, and there's virtually nothing in my ZK yet!  I'm just 
> visualizing how I might use it.  This serendipidy, that's one of the main 
> things I'm interested in -  that, and helping me and my fallible memory 
> find things again.
>

Zettelkasten = structured serendipity! A self-organizing thought factory! 
How to partner creatively with your own brain! An intelligent memory bank 
that digests what you feed it and provides instant, connected, 
pre-clustered, organized access to everything you've ever written!
End of rant.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:07:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> The line of "=" characters marks a section break, the text in brackets 
> becomes the title, and the date speaks for itself.  The number of "=" 
> characters in a line doesn't matter as long as 1) the line starts with an 
> "=" and 2) there are at least some minimum number of them.
>
> As I see it, when you want to convert one of your text files to 
> zettel-hood, you would go through the file and add these section breaks as 
> you go.  Then paste the entire thing into a Leo node (or import the file 
> into a node), hit a hot key, and the system would split out all your 
> zettels, in order, with the titles as the headlines.  They'd all be at the 
> same level of indentation.  After that, you could move them into the ZK, 
> add organizing zettels, link them, add citations, etc to your heart's 
> delight.
>
> Does that sound like it would work for you?
>

Yes it does. 
So prepping a file consists of adding the separators, [title in brackets] 
on first line, a space and then the 'created' date (where I see you used 
the same -MM-DD format that is my preference. 
Will the system then zettel-ize it with a UID? And where will it place the 
title (within the zettel that is)? 
And can the 'created' date be automated?  Well, that would be nice, but 
since I need to type in the created date anyway I might as well make a 
:created: -MM-DD line.
And if the system extracts the title for the heading, perhaps I need to 
copy the title into the 'body', below.  Or it could even differ from the 
heading if there is any reason to do that. Can you have multiple identical 
headings in an outline? Actually, yes, I've already discovered that you can.

So this gives a way to set the heading from within the zettel, removing a 
step from the process.  A bit less overhead, at least when I bring a zettel 
in that way.

In the example you posted, "Salmon with Whole Lemon Dressing" is the 
heading, and also the title in the rendered pane.  But in the body pane, 
what follows the id is "Salmon Lemon Dressing", so the rendered title is 
the same as the heading, but not the same as what is in the body pane.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:07:09 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> We've got that by means of the Leo outline structure.  The proximity and 
> nesting of the Leo nodes fills exactly the same function.
>

Somehow I don't see it as quite the same thing.  The outline structure is 
hierarchical while the numbered thread structure, while it does represent 
ordered sequence, does not necessarily imply hierarchy (although it can). 
But the other aspect that I see as different (and a necessary difference) 
is that outline headings are categories or topics, while thought sequences 
are another sort of thing.  A thought may be an observation, a viewpoint, 
an opinion, a deduction, a question. I might think of it as more of a 
process than a topic, although it will always have a topic. We will have 
entire sequences of thoughts on one topic, and topic-wise, we do indeed 
need the outline structure, which I consider a top-down function. 

But the sequences of thoughts, and their branches and connections do not, 
to me, closely resemble a hierarchically arranged set of topics. They can 
indeed be, and should be, classed within such a structure, but it appears 
to me that allowing them only a topic-based structure might break the 
dynamic of the sequenced thread of thought.  This forum thread is an 
example of a sequenced thread of thought that would be difficult, I think, 
to represent as a hierarchical outline of headings. Sub-topics topics could 
indeed be identified, and we could build an outline structure of those 
sub-topics (in fact it would likely be helpful to do so), yet that 
structure would not, I think, reflect or adequately (though it could to a 
degree) illuminate the sequential thought processes that develops through 
this thread.  A thought thread or 'train of thought' is a sequential, 
ordered process, not just an organization of topics.  Just my viewpoint for 
what it's worth.

>
> I've actually been making new organizing nodes contain the IDs, because I 
> know from experience with my bookmarks manager that it can be useful to 
> jump to headings instead of only to specific items.
>

So an organizing node is itself a zettel, I gather. Hmm, so a note zettel 
could have a backlink to one or more organizing zettels.  And organizing 
zettels form yet another interlaced system and add a powerful search 
capability. I haven't even begun to think about organizing nodes.  I am 
very interested in your concepts and approaches. 

I completely agree on the utility, the necessity of headings, indexes, 
various top-down organizational structures/functions, even while seeing, I 
believe, shortcomings with them as well.  And by the way, if possible, I am 
very interested in your bookmarks manager.  Need a zk for bookmarks/URLs, a 
sort of adjunct to the notes/thoughts zk.

And Thomas, I can hardly express how very much I appreciate your work on 
this.  I expect I come across sometimes as unappreciative.  I'd like to 
correct that impression if I can.  I think that you are exactly the right 
person to do this.  Wish I could help in more substantive ways, not just 
throwing silly ideas out there.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:26:17 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>  So you will need to have some degree of consistency in the syntax and 
> planning of what you write and in your working procedures.
>
 
Yes, I am aware that the different elements of the zettel must conform 
strictly to syntax specific to the element, so the system can correctly 
execute the functionality of the specific element. I've done a small 
smattering of programming and know that exactitude is required.  Computers 
are much more precise in their communication that we mere humans.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>
>
> I think Zettelkasten people tend to say the automated UID system plus the 
> tags system fulfills the purpose of this, but I don't think it does. ... 
> The branched threads represented stepwise, connected thoughts, while the 
> tags represented relationships not based in any way on sequence, but merely 
> shared or related topics. He wanted both, plus he also had headings systems 
> and index systems.
>

I think we're not as far off as I have thought.  Luhmann's numbering system 
provided ordered, two-way connections. We are doing two-way links, though 
not ordered, just as Luhmann's direct slip-to-slip links were not ordered, 
afaik. I may need to provide literate/semantic ordering somehow within the 
system we have, in place of (and possibly better than, if I can do it well) 
a Luhmann-type numbering system.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

I've begun to use it.
And already I see that I could use a command to slap a UID into an already 
existing zettel that doesn't yet have one. I can do it (and have done it) 
by making a new zettel and copy-pasting the body of the old one to the new 
one, then delete the old, but that's a bit cumbersome.
Oh boy, this gets complicated quickly. I'll also need to be able to select 
a section of a file and create a zettel out of it. It can go in a 
to-be-dealt-with node.  Maybe these are actually parser functions.

Eventually I hope, at least my vision hopes, to 'run the show' from inside 
the zettels. For example, I prep an external (or it can be an already 
imported file) for the leokasten and turn the parser loose on it.  What I 
want to happen, what happens in my vision, is the prepped zettels in the 
file are brought in, placed in their proper headings with all the hooks in 
place. Hooks meaning headings, title, subtitle, abstract, tags, body, 
links, keywords, sum-next, pointers, references/citations,  Most of these 
optional but all of them supported, is the idea.
And they are all written into the zettel, so the system just reads the 
zettel, does all the behind the scenes work, and I have virtually no 
overhead because I've done it all right there in the zettel. Plus I can 
alter or add anything later, which is essential in building up the network 
of interlaced connections.

I know. Soon you're going to have to tell me to go sit in the corner and 
shut up. Probably right after the following:

I have yet another Luhmann-based concern.  Luhmann's numbering system 
created ordered, branched threads, meaningfully connected, meaningfully 
ordered. It wasn't just a way to create UIDs, though the numbers did also 
serve as UIDs. If he were to pull out all the cards numbered under "37", 
for example, it would be an ordered, multi-branched tree of sequenced 
thoughts. When he had a link from some card under "16" to some card under 
"37", in effect it created a link, not just between those two cards, but 
between one ordered, branched tree and another.  He could pull out the 
entire tree(s) and walk up and down the sequence, investigating its 
branches in search of usable ideas.  

I think Zettelkasten people tend to say the automated UID system plus the 
tags system fulfills the purpose of this, but I don't think it does.  
Luhmann also used tags, but that was a separate system entirely, and gave 
him yet another cross-connected, indexed system within the system. He used 
tags for a different purpose. I think if tags had been able to take the 
place of those cascading threads of sequenced thoughts he would have had no 
need for the complex, branched, silly-looking numbering system he used. 
There was method in his madness.  The branched threads represented 
stepwise, connected thoughts, while the tags represented relationships not 
based in any way on sequence, but merely shared or related topics. He 
wanted both, plus he also had headings systems and index systems.

This is quite a mind dump, and I am very hard to get along with. Oh well, 
hopefully some of this is stimulating/amusing at worst and maybe a little 
of it possibly useful at best.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 11:36:00 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> I changed the hot keys  to Ctrl+F8. Ctrl+F7, Ctrl+F6.  They don't seem to 
> conflict with either the OS hot keys, or Leo key assignments.  According to 
> what @Austin(Xu)Wang wrote above, you might have to edit them to use "Meta" 
> instead of "Ctrl".
>
> I also fixed a bug I hadn't known about for the insert new zettel 
> command.  I've attached the revised leo file with the commands.  Just 
> replace the old version with it.  This file with the revised commands works 
> for me on both Windows and Linux.
>

It works in your file. I deleted the @settings node in my file and copied 
yours to it. Reloaded All Settings. Does not work. I opened a new file and 
copied it into that, reloaded All Settings. Does not work. Still works in 
your file.  
Wow.  A puzzle.

Ok, restarted Leo. Now it works.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:36:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> The commands work on linux (and I was able to remove some unnecessary 
> code).  The problem seems to be that Linux intercepts Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 for 
> its own purposes (like resizing a window).  Presumably it's more or less 
> the same on the Mac.  I'm trying to come up with alternate shortcut keys 
> that aren't in use by either the OS or Leo.
>

Both Alt-F8 and Alt-F7 worked correctly initially. Alt-F7 still does.  I'll 
reinstall the first Alt-F8 command and see if it works as it did before (as 
soon as I find it again).

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 8:36:29 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> This one is easy to adjust.  You would put another setting into 
> MyLeoSettings.py with the time format you want.  If you like, myself or 
> someone could write down the string format for your particular format. The 
> name of the setting is
>
> body-time-format-string
>

Looks like I do need help on that. A search did not find it in Leo help. I 
think the best for the 'created:' line would be -MM-DD. I don't see the 
need for HH-MM-SS, as I just want to know the date created. I prefer 
hyphens to slashes. 
example: "created: 2020-02-29" 

Now, I want the 'created' date to refer to the date the original content 
was created, not the date the zettel was created, so while it's fine to 
automate it for a new note in a new zettel, I'll need to be able to reset 
that data manually for imported items, which go back to 1990. Maybe when 
the parser sees a "created:" line in the formatted zettel-to-be-imported, 
it accepts it and does not insert a 'created:' line.

I also would like to know last modified date, but that complicates it I'm 
sure. My own preference would be that it auto-updates the 'modified' date 
whenever the file saves. Sometimes imported files will have both 'created' 
and 'modified' dates, as I do enter those in files I write.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 11:30:58 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Paste the code above into this new node.  The new node has be a child of 
> an @settings node in either your MyLeoSettings.leo file or your ZK leo 
> file, so move it as needed.  Then reload the settings.  The hot-key will be 
> ALT-F8.
>

Ok, added it to my current Leo zk file. What it does now: 
  does not create new node
  inserts id line in the body of the selected node
  does not insert timestamp
  does not shift focus to the body

If I hit it again, repeats the id line under the previous one, same id 
number
Added it also to myLeoSettings file; same thing
Removed it from the Leo zk file, leaving it in the myLeoSettings file; same 
thing.
Then realized I didn't know what 'reload settings' entails. Did 
Settings>Reload Settings>Reload-Settings, also Reload-All-Settings.
Same thing.
Finally I quit Leo and restarted.  Now it does not respond to Alt-F8 at 
all. Still responds correctly to Alt-F7. Also, for some reason it dropped 
all tabs except the one I had open when I quite Leo. Before it has reloaded 
all tabs I had when I shut down.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 12:28:27 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> From my reading, he immediately numbered it. Then he added links to other 
> likely zettels.  And then he got into the writing.  He didn't write these 
> slips quickly, but only after mulling over temporary notes he had taken 
> previously.  Maybe temporary notes are really what you have in mind here.  
> My own notion for that is to have a top-level node, maybe outside the 
> zettelkasten top-level node but in the same leo file.  These temporary 
> notes would all go there.
>

I think something like that is exactly what I need.  Luhmann didn't capture 
his ephemeral note with a computer.  I expect it went in the wastebasket 
after he gave it careful consideration and wrote a well-thought out zettel 
from it.  What I want to do is really just a tweak on that. I want to 
capture the ephemeral note, the spontaneous thought, on a blank slip with 
no title. Then after I chase that thought and write it well enough for the 
moment, I'll place it in the system by entering headings, tags, keywords, 
links, pointers.  Or, I don't even have to do that until another time.

I think a 'slush file', a file even of untitled slips is probably the 
solution for my crazy thought process. That way I'm not constrained in any 
way, except that at some point I have to complete the task of headings, 
titles, tags, keywords, links, pointers. I do like the idea of the first 
line being the default title if I don't enter a title myself.  

>
> We could even have the hot-key put the new node into the temporary notes 
> section, if that's what you want.  From a programming point of view, there 
> would have to be a node with a fixed name, like "temporary notes".  
> Otherwise the command behind the hot key wouldn't know where to put the new 
> node.  If you don't want that, it would just create the new node right 
> where you are in the ZK, and you could move it yourself.  We already just 
> about have that, with -I.
>

I think that's the solution for my use case. If, for example, as in The 
Archive, Command-N (no matter where I am at the moment) creates a new 
zettel, in the 'temporary notes' node, plants the id, and the 'created' 
timestamp, and shifts focus to the body, then I have a distraction-free way 
to immediately capture a new thought bubble. This will cleanly initiate the 
process of thought capture.  I might want a 'back button' to take me back 
where I was before this event, but that's another matter for another day.

Then I have the process of entering all the 'hooks' (headings, tags, title, 
keywords, links, pointers, references, each of which is a different type, a 
different hook for searches), but I can do that whenever I 'get a round 
tuit'.  That too is a process of creative thinking, but a very different 
one from the spontaneous process of capturing the bubbles.  And it is an 
enormous relief, believe me, to separate these two creative processes, each 
of which is an adventure in its own right, but each of which can interfere 
with the other if you try to do them both at once. At least that's the way 
my crazy mind works. 

No, not necessarily.  This kind of back-and-forth is needed to home in on 
> how the thing should work. Well, there's going to be a limit to how much 
> time someone is willing to spend on a feature that you want one way but 
> they don't think it should work that way.  As long as we are figuring that 
> out together, to come up with features that could be fairly general, it's 
> all good.
>

Thanks, I'll try to keep enunciating my wild ideas about how it should 
work, and you keep doing only what you have space and energy to do.  I get 
that.  Likely none of us will ever see our ideal vision play out.  But that 
won't keep us from wishing.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 8:31:34 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Here's what I've been doing, and I find it very unobtrusive.  I create a 
> new node where I want it, using the usual -I.  Of course, I type in 
> the node's name as usual. Then -F8, -F7.  I hardly notice I'm 
> doing it.  It would be easy to combine all three of these commands in a 
> single keystroke, but so far I haven't felt the need.
>

Ok, I just did that. But I don't understand why we went through the four 
headings to create the node in your prototype (I copied that for my first 
attempt), but for this new one all we do is write the title and then ID it 
and time stamp it and that's our zettel. One heading instead of four. No 
@rst headings, no @path heading. Don't understand what's going on.

Also realized I don't have to title it until I'm darn good and ready.  And 
I don't have to ID it and time stamp it before writing either. I can do 
those later as well.  All of that is a great help, yet my optimum situation 
would still be: no matter where I am in my system, when a new thought 
strikes, I just hit a hot key and start typing.  I don't have to locate and 
go to the outline where I want the new zettel, position the focus and the 
cursor where I want the new zettel.  Probably I don't even know yet where I 
will want it, but at any rate I don't want to think about any of that. Just 
hit a hot key and type. Take care of all the overhead later, after I've 
completed the thought.  

With The Archive zettelkasten software, for example, you hit command-N and 
start typing. That simple. In Mr. Luhmann's case, he pulls a new blank slip 
from his supply, directly to hand I presume, and starts writing.  Does the 
overhead later. And people thought this pure genius!  Maybe it is.

I'm not easy to get along with, am I?  And your proper response to me, I 
would think, will be, "Son, if you want things exactly your way like that, 
learn python and Leo yourself and learn how to make stuff like that happen!"

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 5:52:09 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
> I have a function bind to a key doing that and can confirm, it's very 
> useful to have a new entry generated and focused instantly.
> I also let it search the proper node in the my prefered leo-file, so it 
> will always created at the same location.
>
>   I am suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide 
>> upon titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel,
>>
>
> Leo has a function to replace text as you type ( 
> http://leoeditor.com/abbreviations.html 
> 
>  
> ), which you could use to create a new entry from  template in an empty 
> node.
>

I would like to learn how to do that.  And how to make the appropriate 
template to create a new 'zettel' in Thomas' format.

But what do you mean with title? Leo does not force you to use a title, but 
> for something meaningful you can't automate this, or do you?
>

In Thomas Passin's prototype, which I downloaded, 1st he types a title 
heading, 2nd a @rst subheading, with title (for Sphinx, which is fine), 3rd 
a @path heading, with title, 4th a @rst subheading, again with title, and 
that 4th node is our zettel.  Four new nodes, four titles before I start 
writing.  At least that is how I understand it (Thomas correct me).  For me 
that is a lot of overhead and distraction before I can start typing.  I 
don't even want to decide upon a title, because I may not know yet what the 
best title should be.  I just want to hit a hot key and start 
writing/thinking.  Title can come after I've completed the thought.

You see Thomas, in his posts below, holding my hand.  That's because I am a 
Leo newbie and also I'm not a programmer.  Everything in this playground is 
baby steps for me, which is why I am leaning on Thomas, who is taking the 
lead on this.  I am a pain in the derriere to these great folks, but so far 
they haven't thrown me out. 

>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 8:11:20 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> That's up in the air for me.  Should it represent the creation time or the 
> last-modified time?  @AndyJim sounded like he'd like to use a last-modified 
> time, because he likes to see what he was working on at a certain period.  
> I don't want to add yet another piece of metadata if it's not needed.  It 
> would be simple to modify the id insertion command to also insert a time 
> the command was run, so it's doable if people think it would be important. 
> Yet the Leo id does actually include a timestamp for the creation time.  
> It's just not formatted to be as readable.  So by inserting the id, we 
> automatically have it anyway.
>
> I'd like to settle on one specific name for that timestamp, though, and 
> finalize it soon before I have too many nodes the other way.
>

I'm afraid my preference and use case on this will complicate rather than 
simplify. You have to do what works for you, but what I personally am 
interested in is the date I first wrote the thought plus the date 
modified.  But to make it considerably worse, the items I want to import 
originated over a 25 year period. It is meaningful and helpful to me to 
know the date I wrote it. Somewhere in the process I will obviously have to 
enter original dates by hand for everything except a new unit for a new 
thought. I accept that. There is no way to automate it. The system's 
automated time stamp when the item is created is fine for a new thought, 
though uniform format for both situations would be nice. Personally, though 
American, I have gotten used to the European date format: YYMMDD and have 
come to prefer it. I've used it in filenames as well as internally in files 
for about five years now (actually I hyphenate it: YY-MM-DD). 
But that's just me. You must do what works for you.  Bottom line is you 
must work within the limitations of Leo and also your time and interest 
budget for this project. I already know and accept that my personal vision 
for all that would go into my own optimal system is way too ambitious for 
the scope of this project. 

Another ugly and inconvenient question: Are you contemplating a command to 
automate starting a new zettel (is it ok to use that term for the time 
being? I gather you plan to find a new term.)?  Sorry to bring it up again, 
but one of the key things for me is to be able to launch a new zettel in an 
instant, without required steps before I can start writing.  I am 
suspicious that if I have to type in three or four headings, decide upon 
titles, etc, in order to create a new zettel, that I might end up not using 
the system.  Currently all I do to start a new thought is skip a line and 
write. I never have to shift attention to accomplishing a mechanical 
process before I can start writing the new thought.  For my very peculiar 
(and inconvenient) profile of creative thought process I need it to be very 
nearly that simple, quick and non-distracting. 

It's this kind of thing that leads me to say you must do what works for 
you. I think even trying to meet some of my nastier requirements would 
impose way too much load for what you are able to invest in this project.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:24:19 AM UTC-5, Marcel Franke wrote:
>
>
>  Yes, for some reasons there is a cargo-cult growing around Luhmann and 
> his knowledge-system. 
> Which is kinda strange, as it's really not that special and we today have 
> many better systems in use. 
>

I really appreciate your comments here. I must frankly admit that the only 
reason I am barking up the zettelkasten tree is that I have failed to run 
across a better system, one better suited to my usage, which will be 
similar to, though of course not a replica of Luhmann's. If I can indeed 
discover an existing system that does what zettelkasten does and more and 
better, I for one will immediately abandon all interest in zettelkasten and 
quickly become an avid user and proponent of such a system. I am looking at 
zettelkasten only because I had despaired of finding something better.

So please, if you would, point us toward at least a few of the many better 
systems for this general type of usage that you have discovered. I do not 
think anyone here will object to the mention of specific softwares, and you 
could save us quite a lot of wasted effort reinventing the wheel when the 
wheel apparently is not that good to begin with.

Thanks much 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 11:05:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> Granted, you can't easily get a listing of all the tags - until we have a 
> zettelkasten plugin that can create one - but you could maintain a zettel 
> that only contains the tag names. It would be almost as good.
>

I'm still wondering exactly how Luhmann's indexing played out.  With 90k 
zettels it must have been efficient and effective indeed, for him to use 
the system so productively.  Seems like there's a whole layer (maybe more 
than one layer) of his system that we don't know enough about.  It seems 
like we might need to innovate something here.
 

> I am unsure, though, whether to allow more than one link per line.  One 
> link per line would be easier to write the code for, yet more than one 
> would be easier to author and would reduce the visual clutter.
>

Personally I very much favor one link per line.
  
One of the types of links I'm very interested in is what I've called 
'pointers', which is a poor term for what I mean. In addition to links to 
related zettels the notion of questions or germs of ideas for further 
thought is, I think, exceedingly creativity inducing.  The example in the 
format we saw I-forget-where appealed to me. The ideas/questions for 
further work followed after the body text (because the ideas were 
stimulated by the content of the text) and they would automatically create 
new zettels, which in turn could be indexed somehow so that, in a spare 
moment we can be stimulated by 'ideas to pursue'. The term 'pointers' came 
to mind meaning 'this points to another path to be investigated', but I'm 
sure there's a better term. In other uses of the system (besides notes), 
there could be other uses for such links; further work needing done on this 
part of a project, memo to self regarding a birthday, a book I'm interested 
in... 

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 9:38:53 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:

>
> I decided to have the link meta-lines have optional labels, because they 
> help you know which links goes where. In the older paper-based system, 
> identifiers generally looked like [...]
>
> Using an optional label seems better.
>

Very much agreed. It's hard to imagine a situation where we wouldn't want a 
literate label with any link, though there might be such a case.  
Should/could the literate label precede the UID in the line, for prominance?

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>>
>> Excellent. Working code (or in this case, a working outline), is worth 
>> gazillions of words and requirements :-) Much easier to understand.
>>
>
> Often, yes, but a good set of requirements can help you to keep your eye 
> on the ball so you end up with what you intend.  Of course, if you don't 
> know that, then no requirements can help you! 
>

I suspect *my* overly long posts and attachment files`stirred the mild 
consternation over "gazillions of words" moreso than yours, Thomas.  And 
indeed, this process has helped me a lot to sharpen up my concepts.  When 
the time comes for me to bring up more of my wish list I will seek to be 
more concise about it. I reckon I have hitherto felt I need to justify and 
sell my ideas, not just define them. Perhaps I don't need to do that, or 
maybe just learn to do it concisely.  

I still think Leo and Zettelkasten are a natural fit, and that Leo can 
significantly enhance the functionalities and value of Zettelkasten.  Thank 
you kindly, Edward, for supporting the project.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Sunday, February 23, 2020 at 7:09:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> So I say we're ready to rock and roll!
>
 
Wonderful!  Didn't expect z-day anything like so soon.  I look forward to 
starting. 

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Re: how to manipulate Leo's windows

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 11:32:24 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> When I was working my way through this, I got the panes into some 
> arrangement that was unusable and I couldn't recover from.  The remedy is 
> to delete Leo's "*db*" directory (thanks to @ekr for this).  This will 
> let you start again.  
>

Looks like I need to delete db, as I've experimented myself into a jam.  
But she don't wanna delete. Says it's a directory and won't touch it.  I 
looked up how to delete a directory but it won't let me do it.  Hmm.  
sudo?  Nope, still won't delete a directory.  MacOS. 

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Re: how to manipulate Leo's windows

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 11:32:24 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> The next step is to drag the panes by their title bars where you want 
> them...One of these docking  areas is on the right.  The body pane should 
> already be in it, if you put that *@setting* node in and restarted Leo.  
> There is another docking area on the left, and you drag the outline pane 
> over there.  The tabs pane may end up tabbed in the same pane as the 
> outline, or with the body pane.  Either way, drag it way down to the bottom 
> under the outline pane on the left.  A new docking area should open up.  
> Drop the tabs pane there.  
>
> Thanks.  Ok, got that far, but the body pane still matches height with the 
outline pane. I want it to vertically fill the space to the right of the 
outline and tabs panes. 

After the tabs pane is in place, you can drag its separator bar up or down 
> to adjust its height.
>

 Yep, but the entire horizontal line dividing the 'north panes' from the 
'south panes' moves. There's no rendering pane but its blank space persists 
and moves up and down along with vertical adjustment of any pane.  I want 
the body pane to fill the entire east half.  Hope I'm clear. 

Another peculiar behavior: When I adjust the width of the tabs pane, the 
body pane jumps down to the blank space to the right of the tabs pane. But 
when I then click in that body pane it snaps back up to its northeast 
position next to the outline pane.  I informally re-title this post, 'pane 
pains'

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how to manipulate Leo's windows

[andyjim]

I haven't managed to find how.  I want my default to be outline tree on the 
left, body on the right, no log window, no render window.  But I want to 
know the ropes so I can modify that as desired.  I'm sure it's in the docs 
somewhere but I haven't put my finger on it.  Thanks.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

I  look forward to getting into this.  So on the Leo side I need to start 
setting up a heading structure.  I also need to learn about Leo tags. And 
start learning some RsT and write some zettels at least for testing.

It's looking interesting.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Cool! That's one thing about Leo - it can do so many things, but it can be 
> hard to discover them.  Maybe a zettelkasten?
>

Yes!  Zettelkasten is a bottom-up, self-organizing, multi-faceted 
journal/database/creativity tool that evolves into a genius, an agent, a 
multi-channel partner in memory and thinking.  Pardon me while I rave, but 
it's the best concept I've ever seen.  You don't have to think, 'now where 
did I put that?'.  When you connect every item three or four different ways 
(the more the better in my opin), it should never be hard to find. The more 
‘handles’ the better, because I think the mind’s own system is that way: a 
multi-faceted network of connections allowing maximum access, maximum 
creativity.  Hierarchical headings, tags, keywords, ‘pointers’, direct 
links, titles, subtitles, first lines, references and more. 
End of rant.

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:35:05 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> I've been spending some time with my bookmark manager again,
>
> Thomas, is your bookmarks manager available to 'the general public'?  I am 
terrible with bookmarks. No organization at all, and (after taking up 
valuable time counting them) I would blush to report how many I have open 
right now.

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:08:30 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> Sure, I understand.  And I wasn't thinking about delineating the different 
> pieces by date so much as automatically extracting them.  Sounds like that 
> won't work.
>
> However, having the dates in the zettels would have the advantage that 
> they can be searched for in Leo without us having to write any new code.
>

I am wondering: Early in this thread someone said you can, in Leo, easily 
break out selected sections from a file, into a new node I believe.  Maybe 
that's what I should do.  I have to work through these files anyway to 
'create' zettels, so why not simply do that in Leo, then format the 
zettels, in Leo.  No need for a parser at all?

It appears you are casting your net beyond Leo a bit too, in case there is 
something out there that does almost all of what we want.  Brain? 
MindForge?  Let me know what you find. I was unable to install MindForge on 
my Mac even though there are instructions to build it. Didn't work.

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 11:55:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> I just found the MindForger project.  This actually looks like it might do 
> a lot of what we like, and very nicely.  It used to be a Linux app, but now 
> there's a Windows installer too (Actually, it's a QT5 project).  It uses 
> Markdown, and stores its data in Markdown files.  It has several types of 
> displays, including a mind map style.  Notes and notebooks can be cloned (I 
> assume the are similar in concept to Leo's clones).  Notes can have 
> associations with other notes, and you can create tags for notes.
>
> I'm not too sure about importing files, but it's supposed to be able to 
> import MD files or directories, which means it should import text files, 
> too, though the files may have to have a .md extension.
>
> In addition, it's a Markdown editor renders to a panel, and exports to 
> HTML.
>
> So it sounds interesting. 
>

Yes it does.  It supposedly can install on MacOS but I couldn't make it 
happen. The installer they give for Mac is the Windows installer.  I tried 
the build method but it failed too. 

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

I tried it briefly years ago too, and don't recall why I quit.  I think it 
did have bugs at that time. 
What format are files stored in? 
Is it 'forward compatible'? 
I haven't yet downloaded the free version now, but very much like the 
capability of a variety of types of links. That's a big part of zk's 
appeal, as it creates discovery and stimulation for creativity. 
What about searches? Can you search for multiple link types in one search? 
Can you walk through search results and pick and choose items to form a 
collection? 
Can you stack up 'zettels' in a column? 
Does it have two panes so you can walk through a tree and view the content 
in a separate pane as you can in Leo? 
Can you write macros? 
Can you design a parser to walk through exterior files and pick up 
'zettels'?
I am hard to get along with.

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:36:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 3:58:48 PM UTC-5, rengel wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I just stumbled upon this particular post, but didn't read the whole 
>> thread. But from what I sense here, you are talking about problems that 
>> have been solved by another product that has been dicussed cursorily 
>> elsewhere on this forum: *TheBrain* (i.e. see the tutorials 
>> https://www.thebrain.com/support/tutorials). TheBrain has everything: 
>> thoughts (aka concepts), notes (aka 'Zettels') with or without filenames, 
>> an internal automatic numbering system, user-defined names for thoughts, 
>> any number of tags, search functions, and named and unnamed links galore 
>> (hierarchical, network). And managing 'Zettel' networks with 500.000+ 
>> zettels is no problem.
>>
>> Again, I haven't read the other posts. Sorry, if this has been mentioned 
>> already...
>>
>
> I just downloaded the free version, and what do you know! I used to use it 
> a very long time ago. I'm thinking early 2000s. I used it on some projects 
> at work.  I don't remember why I stopped using it, but I do remember 
> feeling that the interface wasn't working for me as well as I would have 
> liked. I remember being sorry about it because the thing had some nice 
> capabilities and visualizations.
>
> I had forgotten all about it.  Thanks for reminding me.  I'll play with it 
> a bit.  It must be able to do a whole lot more than back then.  Nice it it 
> were more robust, too.  I seem to remember getting corrupted brains (data 
> stores, for those who haven't used it) once in a while.
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 11:08:54 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> Could you send me an example file?  It you typed in a date, you probably 
> did it in a more or less standard way, and maybe we can automate getting it 
> out without you having to handle each and every file.
> BTW, how many of these files are you talking about?  Roughly speaking, of 
> course.
>
 
There are 20+ of the yearly Word files, but I'll be looking at material in 
other Word files as well; don't know how many.  Much of my writings are an 
undifferentiated mix of personal and non-personal stuff, so because of the 
personal stuff I cannot offer a sample. But I will not be extracting *all* 
of the material in these files to zettels. I assume you were thinking of 
using the dates as delineators. I am confident that would not work for at 
least a couple of reasons: I wrote on multiple topics each day, so sooner 
or later it will have to be subdivided deeper than just the date level, and 
also, since I don't want all of the material to go into the zettelkasten, 
the parser will need to skip over a lot of material.  It seems to me that 
I'll need to insert headings, tags, keywords, perhaps what I've called 
'pointers' (a great idea in my opinion, quite a creativity booster), and 
any other devices (URLs?) we come up with so zettels do all the magic that 
we want them to do.  

I want to accomplish as much of that as possible as I prep the files for 
the parser so I don't still have another mammoth task of working through 
all the zettels *again *to populate them with tags, headings, etc *after* 
bringing them into the system. Am I correct that basically what this 
requires is a pre-designed zettel template with markdown for all these 
sub-elements, so that I go into these files, designate each zettel, format 
it according to the template and insert markdown defining tags, headings, 
etc, i.e. everything that makes up a zettel, so all the parser has to do is 
pick it up and plunk it into a zettel and it is now a functional zettel 
with all its accoutrements, ready to take its place as a complete and fully 
functioning member of the community?  
Or is there more to it than that?

Upshot of the above is that I really don't see any alternative to working 
through every file individually, identifying the items I want, deciding 
upon tags, keywords, headings, etc and inserting everything needed.  Is 
this how you are conceiving it or am I out in left field? 

I did not write with a zettelkasten-like plan in mind for 'someday', so the 
material is a mess.  

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:13:03 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>  
>>
>> 7. Time Stamp
>> agreed generally. I do want date of origin, and I would like modification 
>> dates as well. The vast bulk of my zettels will be extracted from archived 
>> files, so I will have to manually enter those dates of origin as I prep 
>> those files for the parser. And I want to be able to search the 
>> zettelkasten by time stamp as well as (and in combination with) other 
>> handles. 
>>
>
> I'm not sure what date you will get from an archived file.  It will depend 
> on the archiving method, I'm sure.  Windows will claim the creation date is 
> the date a file was created, but that means that a copy you make today of a 
> twenty year old file would have a creation date of today.  The last 
> modified date will show the last time you modified a file, which might be 
> that day twenty years ago.  What dates might come out of your archive, I 
> don't know.
>
> Leo will apply the timestamp of the time you create a node.  That can't 
> change, because Leo used it internally.
>
> The upshot is that if some of these timestamps are going to be important 
> to you, they will have to added.  One way is to put them right in the file 
> using some simple syntax.  I posted up with some possibilities a few days 
> ago.  Another way is at write some code that lets you add them to the 
> node's metadata, similar to the way that the backlinks plugin handles 
> links.  That would be more of an effort to get going.  I would say that for 
> now, the best way to get going would be to put them into the text of the 
> zettel, and later we can write some code to pull them out, index them, and 
> make them more available for searching.  Or we could modify the renderer to 
> not show them if that's what we want.
>  
>
>> If the system-applied UID is time-based (YYMMDDHHMMSS, since I might 
>> create more than one zettel within a minute), then the UID could double as 
>> the timestamp. But, for my zettels drawn from archive I would have to 
>> append additional identifying characters after the YYMMDD portion of the 
>> (user-created) UID, since many of those zettels will have been created on 
>> the same day but without HHMMSS data available.
>>
>> I have been misleading in using the word 'archive'.  What I've called 
archived files are simply Word files in a folder I named 'archive'. They 
are not in an archive format.
I am also misleading in my use of 'time stamp'.  I simply want date of 
origin with everything I write, for context. I realize that the system is 
going to time stamp every new zettel at the time it is created and that's 
fine.  But when I make a zettel from something I wrote 25 years ago, I 
would like the date that I wrote that item to be in the zettel, probably 
right in the body where I can see it.  In my yearly files, in which I wrote 
nearly every day, I (usually) typed the current date each day before I 
started writing. I would like the date of origin (meaning the date I did 
the writing) to be part of the format of any zettel, new or old.  For those 
old files, I will need to go through and format with markdown every zettel 
for the parser.  I would like the date of origin to be in that template, 
and I realize completely that I will have to manually type in that date for 
each and every zettel, in the exact arrangement the parser will require. I 
will need to insert tags, keywords, titles (if possible), headings, etc 
insofar as I can, as part of prepping the old files for the parser. I think 
that is the time to do it, so that when brought into the system by the 
parser, the zettels are fully formed, correctly formatted, populated with 
everything they require and ready to behave as all good little zettels do. 

I hope to accomplish all that prep work in one manual pass through the file 
so I don't have more work to do on the zettel after it's in the system. I 
don't anticipate that this will work out as smoothly as we wish, and that 
there will be trial and error in me and the parser to cooperate with each 
other, and work to do getting the pieces to fit after it's in the system, 
and exactly what headings I want, what tags I want (I know all this must 
evolve). But I want to get each zettel as close as possible to correct 
before it hits the system. We'll have to learn as we go, and I'll try it 
first of course on small files to iron out the kinks before attempting it 
on larger files. It will be an adventure.  As you begin to develop it, 
please give me homework assignments to prepare and train myself. I have to 
learn a lot about Leo, for one thing.

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

If anyone wants me to put this in an attached file instead of verbose here, 
I'll do that. I know I get lengthy.
-
FLOW

It would necessarily be over-simplification, but perhaps the aim of a 
zettelkasten in software could be rolled into one word: flow.
We want a system that triggers, creates, enables, sustains thought flow.

I know there are entire works on flow and I haven't studied them, so just 
trying to express what I see as promoting flow:

Intuitive: It attempts to work the way the mind works so that the mind can 
be more engaged. No clunky, non-intuitive interface that presents obstacles 
rather than tools that make sense from the mind's perspective, which makes 
it:

Easy: not only intuitive, but simple.

Fast: Because of both its structure and its underlying mechanics, 
everything you want to do happens fast, and the usage patterns are fast.

Comprehensive: Everything I've written in 30 years is within easy reach!!!

Discovery: Multiple ways to find or just stumble upon related material, all 
of them intuitive, easily deployed.

Mapping: Integrates all of the above and more, utilizing all of the below 
and more.

Connections: Suppose we call all the connectable elements we've talked 
about cons, for  'connections', to create a general term just for this 
page. Cons can include, not limited to:
   headings
   tags
   links
   keywords (I'll expand)
   titles
   sub-titles (I'll expand)
   first lines
   references/citations
   pointers (I'll expand)
   others not conceived yet...

Now why in heck would I want such a mess? Doesn't it just create confusion? 
Well, I think each of these different types of con can reflect a different 
aspect or tool the mind already has and uses. I think we have multiple 
types of cons that the mind works in or uses, and they are interconnected 
such that we can flow from one to another, put several types to work in 
parallel, etc. And our conscious is the tip of the iceberg; vast majority 
of this is subconscious. The mind is amazing, and we want software that is 
as enabling to the mind as possible, which means it should reflect/enable 
the mind's own tools as completely yet simply as possible. Such a software 
can in effect tap directly into our subconscious by use of such tools.

But in our software we generally severely limit the types of cons we allow, 
thus limiting or at least requiring more work of the mind. So if we attempt 
to create as many types of cons as we can come up with, that reflect 
aspects of the way the mind already works (we're not reinventing the wheel 
here), then we have created a system that works with, encourages, becomes 
an extension of the mind. The fewer mental tools available to us in 
software, and the more awkwardly they are implemented, the more we limit 
the mind, create obstacles instead of bridges between our conscious work 
and the deep and extensive fertility of the mind. And then as a user we 
feel the software is 'clunky', 'non-intuitive', 'stupid' (meaning not very 
mind-like).

Titles can certainly serve as cons. So can sub-titles. I've noticed that 
most non-fiction books these days have sub-titles. The subtitle attempts to 
flesh out the idea represented by the title, or refer to the particular 
aspect the work deals with. Very useful indeed.

First line (after the title) might serve as a subtitle, or, (maybe it 
already has a sub-title) just 'trigger verbiage' that reminds us of that 
particular zettel content.

One could also include a brief summary or abstract of the work. Short 
zettels won't need such, but longer ones could well benefit from such an 
option.

Tags create relations with other zettels

Headings place the zettel within a mapping of all headings, creating 
relations with other zettels. The zettel's own heading structure might 
contribute to the overall headings map (acyclic graph) as well.

Keyword (as opposed to tag): I think of a keyword as generally a word 
within the text (I know, tags can be embedded as well), that may or may not 
be closely related to the topic. I'd like aliasing of keywords. Suppose I 
want to alias 'think', 'thinking', 'thought', 'thoughts', and any compound 
word that contains any of those, such as 'thoughtbase', 'thoughtware'. This 
creates a cluster where keywords link to other zettels containing same, 
just as tags do.  But I would think of a tag as something more directly 
pertaining to the topic at hand, whereas a keyword might be more 
incidental/accidental and yet I want keywords to create 'incidental 
connections' that can trigger creativity.

Pointers (may not be best term): Questions or further thoughts, triggered 
by the thoughts in the zettel body. They can germinate more zettels. 
Perhaps those germ zettels remain empty until I come back to them some 
time. They would probably connect via the parent zettel's existing 
connections, although one could go into the empty zettel and give it 
headings, tags, references or whatever, creating a sort of network of 

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Let me know if I should put this in an attached file instead, and I'll do 
it. Pretty long.

1. No Lockin
agreed

2. Text Files
agreed

3. Simple Section Demarkations
For distraction-free creative/productive activity I'd like to be able to 
optionally see only the text body, or, (and maybe the following belongs 
under Display) in a collection/stack of zettels, or only the first lines, 
or only the titles, or only the links, or only the citations or other 
reference types.

Editor:
In my ideal world I might add a category to this list: Editor. My idealized 
editor displays in rendered text, controlled more or less as a word 
processor does, e.g. Ctl-I for italic (though I don't need and don't want 
the accompanying bells and whistles of a word processor, 'just the rendered 
text please').

This, I think, would significantly enhance creativity because with no 
intervening (and distracting) step I get the immediate benefit of the 
clarity that enhanced formatting gives, plus it eliminates from the display 
all distracting markdown/coding, plus it eliminates me having to think in 
markdown and type in markdown (distractions, distractions).

YET, this wonderful interpretive, self-rendering editor stores the file in 
text/markdown so it's transferable, or forward-compatible (as I have come 
to like to put it). So when you read the file in a plain text editor (and 
my ideal editor optionally displays and operates in plain text/markdown as 
well), the markdown is there. But when rendered in the editor it's in 
rendered mode and you edit directly in rendered mode with word-processor 
style key commands.

Ok, here is a wild thought: Leo has a real time renderer, right? All we 
gotta do then, in my ideal world, is rig key commands and allow the user to 
work directly in the render pane, with the ability to toggle with the 
regular body pane, either overlaid or side by side.
Easy for me to say from my vantage point as a non-programmer. My 
imagination lives in joyous, unfettered freedom by the simple device of not 
knowing what can't be done.

4. Unique Identification
agreed

5. Hierarchical Navigation
The way I see this playing out for me: I will seek a minimal set of 
'highest level' or 'encompassing' headings, the least number under which I 
can class everything. Every zettel must (eventually) class under at least 
one 'top heading' (maybe the default could be 'unclassed' if I don't class 
it). But the acyclic graph principles apply. Even the encompassing headings 
can be anyone's children.

Each zettel, then, maps into the whole shebang by means of:
 . headings attached to it (as parents, children siblings)
 . zettels attached as parents, children, siblings (Luhman's system does 
this, right?)
 . direct links with other zettels
 . tags, which creates a peculiar, separate but interwoven mapping, which 
has even fewer restrictions than the acyclic graph. I want to be able to 
look at all tags 'associated' (through the zettels but not directly) to a 
given heading or set of headings.
 . organizing nodes  Luhmann used indexes, for one, and I have not explored 
Leo's concepts on this. I expect there is a lot one can do with organizing 
nodes
 . other organizing features not yet mentioned or conceived...

It almost seems as though the acyclic node-mapping system should hardly be 
called hierarchic, as the very word implies binding limitations, which 
clones and acyclic graph bring escape from. And yet a Leo file is a 
hierarchical outline (or perhaps I don't yet grasp how clones change the 
apparently strict hierarchical display of the Leo outline).

I guess this is one reason you like mind maps. I do too, even though I've 
given up on them a couple of times already and don't currently use them. 
You probably enhance the mindmap idea with semantic processing concepts 
that would be great to  have in zettelkasten.

I can visualize opportunistically traversing an integrated mindmap of all 
the above-listed mappings, just in search of inspiration, no particular 
purpose or topic in mind. Each node in such a mapping would access all the 
headings, tags, organizing nodes, etc that intersect it; all the types of 
handles integrated in one map. Or equally imaginable, traversing such a 
mapping with a particular purpose very much in mind. It becomes a capable 
search tool as well as a rich browsing context. Wild, I know, and quite 
possibly too much mess in practice to be worth anything. Yet the concept is 
intriguiing to me. Yep, wild.

6. Link Navigation
And these links are (or can be) embedded in text, right? Do they, or can 
they, also link directly to a specific place in the target note, or simply 
to the note as a unit? Another way to say that: can the target of a link be 
an embedded marker in the target note? I can easily imagine, e.g. in the 
case of more developed zettels such as chapters or textually developed 
outlines, wanting to link to a particular place in the target zettel. I can 
also imagine wanting to 

Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

Thank you Edward, that helps.  I can sense that I'm not going to really get 
it until I do it and find the real world benefits in my own world.  I will 
begin.

So a child, through cloning, can also be parent of its parent?  

And a sibling can also be parent of another sibling? 

If I grasp this correctly then, the only thing that a node cannot be is its 
own parent or its own child?

So this deliberately and fruitfully breaks the confinement and limitation 
that is inherent in a strict hierarchical structure.  And this enables, 
rather than stultifies or confuses creativity/productivity/order.  Exactly 
what I'm looking for, and that few if any others do.  

Is that pretty much the power of the Leo model?  I'm not complaining.  I 
can see that it's simplicity and complexity in harmony and once you bring 
your mind to operate this way you don't have to comprehend the complexity 
itself, only the simple principles by which it operates (at least I believe 
that's something like what will happen).  

But my next question is, what other fundamental operative principles do I 
need to grasp with Leo?  I am probably premature asking this before I've 
mobilized what you've given me.

Andy

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

>
> > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:55:38 AM UTC-5, stevelitt wrote: 
>
> > > The thread you started long ago moved away from the preceding 
> > > desire. Your preceding desire should be very easy to accomplish 
> > > using the same method VimOutliner accomplished it: Use executable 
> > > lines. Somewhere on a headline, or as a direct child of a headline, 
> > > have a command to view the external file, so that if you hotkey the 
> > > headline, it runs the command and pulls up the file. 
>
I've actually gotten some text files into Leo, whole folders full (365 per 
folder), by multi-select, drag/drop. Each forms a node, which I think is 
probably going to turn out best. 

>
> From the preceding, I assume all the information is not within the same 
> directory tree, so you can't just roll it into a tarball. And if it 
> isn't already in Leo, it sounds like you don't yet have an inventory of 
> all this information. If this is indeed the situation, you have a 
> challenge: A very interesting one. Please feel free to contact me 
> offlist for the parts of the situation not involving Leo: If the 
> situation is what I think it is, it's very interesting and common 
> situation whose solution isn't trivial. 
>
> I PM'd you Steve, but it does not seem to go through. I'd be happy to be 
> in touch with you for your suggestions.  
>
andyjim47-at-gmail-dot-com 

>  
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

Well, this gives me a lot to think about. I've been more or less assuming 
the idea of one zettel/one node as being a limiting one, but perhaps it's 
the opposite, given all the capabilities of a node, hardly any of which I 
am familiar with.  And that's what I need to do: dig in and get familiar 
with the organizational/accessing capabilities of Leo.

@EKR says Leo is the ultimate filing cabinet and I must dig into that 
instead of sitting here on the sidelines waiting for something to happen.  
I expect there are one or more tutorials somewhere dealing particularly 
with those aspects while leaving aside the programmer's aspects. I'll look 
around but if someone can point me ...

One thing I wish I understood better is the acyclic graph model, how that 
plays out in Leo and what it accomplishes for us in organization/linking.

And Thomas, perhaps I need to read your papers on semantic processing 
(haven't done so yet), as it seems that's more or less what the 
zettelkasten model offers (maybe the Leo model, in fact), and it appears 
you are bringing the body of your work to bear on this project.  Which 
probably makes you nearly the perfect person to be working on this.

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

A node for each zettel? Thousands of them?

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

Thanks for being patient with this non-programmer.  And I'm glad I stumbled 
in here and stumbled upon the right person who has a personal interest in 
Zettelkasten. Are we more or less caught up now? Have I answered all 
questions where you wanted my responses?  What's next step? Any other 
questions we need to be thinking about? Oh, I know of one:

I think for myself I would like the system to generate date-time based UIDs 
for new zettels (so I don't have to type them in), but to have the option 
to type in title as UID or default the first line to title per your 
suggestion. have the option which way to do it.  BUT, what about parsing my 
archive files?  I will want those zettels dated from origin. They start 
around 1990 and go up to the present. I would like to be able to call up 
zettels by date or date range as well as other keys.  Hopefully the system 
can do that.

Maybe it's as simple as entering my UID manually when I prep a file for the 
parser, though in that case I would not be using the full YYMMDDHHMMSS 
format, probably just YYMMDDxx, since date will be the finest granularity 
available to me. I'll just increment the last two digits after DD for the 
zettels written on that day.  Another point on that: I won't be consigning 
the entire content of these files to zettels; just the points I'm 
interested in. There will be a lot of verbal cruft that I don't need, and 
this is my opportunity to clean up my mess.  I expect the parser will just 
keep parsing line by line until it finds another zettel code that I've set?

Anybody know how to recover old MS Word 2003 files where I've lost the 
password?

OK, one more item: I'm on board with the notion of making zettels short, 
keeping the thought atomic. I see the value of that, but I won't always be 
able to do it. I have a goodly number of non-atomic thoughts, even essays, 
book chapters... But I want them in my ThoughtBase nonetheless. Also, I 
will be drawing on groups of zettels to write longer pieces, possibly 
someday a book or two (Luhmann wrote 60 books from his zettelkasten). I 
realize that at some point you need to take it elsewhere (Scrivener or 
whatever) to finish it, but I can imagine doing most everything up to rough 
draft in Zettelkasten.  IOW I feel I need to have no limit on zettel size.

Earlier you suggested starting a new thread. Are we coming to a good point 
to do that? I lean upon your best judgement; no strong opinion either way.

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Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 9]

[andyjim]

Speaking for myself, with my use case, where the system is for thoughts, I 
want as little clutter and distraction as possible, which is the main 
reason I’ve never even used markdown. When I’m thinking and writing my 
thoughts, I don’t want to have to think about anything at all but writing 
nouns and verbs; not formatting code or anything else.  I don’t know how 
many of my silly breed are thus afflicted, but I know some are. I’m having 
to work at accepting that I probably have to learn some markdown, but I 
won’t be messing with it until after I’m done writing my nouns and verbs.

Likewise when I make a gathering of a cluster of zettels to work with, I 
just want to see the text ("Just the text, ma'am").  Don’t want to see meta 
data or any other sort of informational or system stuff. Just the text, 
please, so I can focus on the meat. I’ll be thinking and writing further 
notes then as well, so keep the dogs quiet and tell that silly parrot to 
just shut up.

Ok well, enough drama.  But this strongly felt need of mine is one reason I 
suggested (in my zettel template file attached to another post) a 
sub-divided zettel instead of a monolithic zettel. Let the system be able 
to address each sub-element independently. Bind the elements together by 
adding one more digit to the zettel’s UID  and let that extra digit 
differentiate the individual elements. Now, let the system permit 
displaying only the body element, and now I have my distraction free 
thinking/writing environment. If all the link stuff is in one sub-zettel 
then the system need only look at that sub-element and not have to scan 
everything else to find what it’s looking for. Distraction free environment 
for the system as well. The links blocks from all the zettels are all the 
system needs to form the entire zettel web. Neat and clean, hopefully 
easier on the programmer (speaking as a non-programmer).

If the body (including title) comprises a separate element, then we can 
easily export only the body (if that’s what we want to do), free of all the 
system stuff. Or, if we wanted to export some but not all the specialized 
blocks. We can do whatever we want with ease.

Too, if the title is a sub-block of the body block, then we can view title 
only, or many titles, stacked up so we can scan them undistracted by 
everything else in the zettel.  But maybe it’s only my use case that would 
benefit from such a capability.

If the links block is a separate element, containing only links (using 
’links’ broadly) then the system only has to directly address that block, 
and everything in it is code that the system understands. It could even 
contain the addresses of the other blocks. 

All of which brings me to another reason I’m suggesting this, and you are 
free to tell me I’m crazy. This is a jealously guarded secret so don’t tell 
a soul: 
If the zettel is modular, then a user can design his own zettels and his 
own system…

Suppose the user wants a GTD system, specialized for his own use case. Now 
I realize the zettelkasten system can be used as is for a GTD, a PIM or 
most anything else. But, a GTD system would probably benefit from 
specialized templates for GTD. Likewise a PIM would better suit with 
specialized templates (fields for data, etc). You yourself designed a 
specialized ‘zettel’ for your URL management system.  If this system has 
the capability to allow the user to ‘roll his own’ for specialized 
purposes, then I think we’ve got something pretty special. Heck you or I 
might want to redesign the zettel for our own use case. It looks already as 
if we have slightly different preferences in some ways each to suit his own 
use case.  I’d like to be able to see first lines only, but you may have 
little or no interest in such a feature.  But if my custom modified zettel 
template allows the first line to be a separate zet (cute name for a 
sub-element?), then I can have my wish, and you can have yours. Too, we 
could combine multiple systems in one: Notes, GTD, PIM, URL manager, 
project manager, … all in one integrated system.

Many researchers and writers want citations. If there’s a separate block 
for them, they can be hidden unless wanted (keep the dogs quiet). Or the 
user can easily view or form a list of all zettels’ citations. Or titles. 
Or links. Or header info.  With such a system maybe the header block would 
contain the descriptor for the zettel.  A list of the 'zets', their types, 
address of each. The system will need all that, and that and making a 
template for each sub element may be about all it takes.

I know---wild idea. And, I know too that it’s not as simple as just 
enabling the user to custom build his own zettel. The rest of the system 
has to accommodate this concept.  But my non-programmers mind naively 
thinks: how difficult could that be, really? Well, maybe way too difficult, 
for all I know. So tell me I’m crazy and I’ll return it back under my hat 
where it belongs, and you don’t have to 

Re: Leo for organizing notes? [Comments Item 4]

[andyjim]

Seems this issue needs a lot of thought.  Niklas Luhmann's zettels had 
numerical ID numbers, without textual clues as to their content.  And it 
was a paper system. And he certainly didn't work by remembering filenames 
(he had 75,000 zettels). I don't think it could have worked with textual, 
meaning-based filenames---not for that big a system (and I have the same 
problem, not on his scale but I will at least be in the 10s of thousands I 
think). How did he do it?  Well, we know he had an indexing system, though 
we don't know much about it. And we know that his zettel ID numbering 
system itself created 'clusters', so the zettel IDs served as a sort of 
internal indexing system, which was in turn connected with his external 
indexing system (I'm assuming his indexing was external to the zettelkasten 
itself. The software zettelkasten systems I've seen simply generate a 
time-based numerical UID. Fine for the system, but gibberish to the user, 
so they do not employ Luhmann's type of indexing system.  Maybe we need to 
figure out how to employ those principles. Maybe some sort of indexing 
system is what I'm fishing for when I talk about 'mapping'.  I'm going to 
be thinking about this.

I understand your wanting individual text-based filenames, in order to be 
forward-compatible with an uncertain future. I get that and agree with the 
principle.  But it appears to me that while that idea is forward-compatible 
it's not current-compatible with a software-based zettelkasten.  How do we 
resolve this?  Well, you suggested an optional, user-entered title as the 
UID. What if the system could (optionally) generate a separate file using 
the zettel title as the filename? The reason I say 'optionally' generate 
that file is that in my case I do intend to use titles, but they won't be 
unique. I might use the same title for a hundred different zettels, some on 
entirely different subjects. 

Hard to conceive?  Well here's an example for a PIM system: a file called 
Books of Interest. Now suppose my PIM system covers a number of different 
categories, in each one of which I want a list of books of interest.  In my 
system, which is a thoughts system, not a PIM system, there will be 
thoughts, concepts, ideas, themes that occur in many different contexts, 
hence the high likelihood of identical zettel titles in many contexts. 
That's why I need much more than just a simple filename in order to locate 
any given zettel in its full context, to say nothing of my inability to 
remember thousands of files. This is the magic of the zettelkasten system. 
So in my thinking, using a zettel's title for its UID won't work in this 
kind of system (maybe I should say in *my* use case of this kind of 
system).  But, having said that, I certainly can buy into what I'm calling 
your forward-compatibility principle.  

So how about going with the best of both worlds, and provide an option to 
generate files by zettel title? They could be loaded into an archive as 
both a second copy of the files, and as a hedge against an unknown future. 
Or if you want, an *option *to use zettel titles as UIDs instead of having 
the system generate time-based UIDs (Let the system do it: I wouldn't want 
to type those in either).

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

A draft of my 'user's story', in hopes it gives a glimpse of how I see the 
system playing out.  Much is left out of this draft; I just intend it to 
give a flavor.

On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 1:30:36 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 10:30:26 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thomas, tell me if this is an inappropriate suggestion, but I wonder if 
>> this thread has pretty much played out its level of pertinence and interest 
>> to the Leo community, since it's not directly about Leo and may be on a 
>> subject of limited interest here.  Given your own zettelkasten-like program 
>> and your interest in knowledge and semantic processing, and your direct 
>> questions to me about my ideas (I'm working on it), would it be appropriate 
>> for us to continue the discussion by email?  That would be much easier for 
>> me, but if not appropriate I'll continue here, though this thread waxes 
>> long now and I feel I don't function well in a forum venue.  
>>
>
> I've been wondering the same thing.  Trouble is, if we use email, it's 
> just us, and we miss out on other people's  thinking.  We could set up a 
> whole new Google group, but I'd like to keep the discussion in the Leo 
> context if we can do so - would you agree?  And it's clear that there is 
> some degree of interest, as we see from @Xavier's post.
>
> What I'm thinking is to open a new thread in the Leo group - and to keep 
> opening new threads when and as one gets too long to work with.  Just now, 
> we're wrestling with what we really want to accomplish and how it ought to 
> work, and it would make sense to open a new thread on requirements and 
> concept of operation (this could include your narratives).  How's this 
> sound to everyone? 
>
> I've gone beyond the requirements I posted a few days ago, and tried to 
> come up with a note format that
>
>1. Can be typed and read easily;
>2. Can be processed by software easily;
>3. Could be used in a paper Zettelkasten if one really had to do that;
>4. The system could export note files in this format without too much 
>difficulty;
>5. Contains most of the essential information, so that the software 
>could reconstruct the entire zettelkasten just from these notes if need be 
>(possibly with a small amount of information loss);
>
> I think I've gotten most of this.  The main things I haven't worked out so 
> far are links to other notes that might be embodied right in the text of 
> the note (if we really want these). and similarly how links to other 
> non-text media would be captured in the zettel.  There is no end of ways 
> these things could be done, and my interest is in coming up with something 
> that is especially easy to type and read.
>
> Why my emphasis on typing the zettels?  Because the alternative is to use 
> some software system that tries to "help" you.  Now we'll certainly want 
> something like that as an option, but having to use a number of select or 
> drop-down lists or whatnot all the time really interferes with one's flow.  
> Straight typing is better where possible.
>
> In my concept of operations, one would be able to type into a new zettel - 
> either in a Leo node or even in a separate file - and then the system would 
> hook it up based on the info you typed.  Later, the system would help you 
> change, add to, or update the references;  you could do that when you 
> weren't so involved with the thoughts you were typing.
>

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user_story_aj-1
Description: Binary data

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

attached is my first draft for a zettel format.  


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zettel-template-aj-1
Description: Binary data

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

I'm attaching my responses to the requirements you wrote, Thomas  I'm 
thrilled there is more interest here than I had thought.  I haven't even 
digested your comment here yet, just wanted to get my responses posted to 
hold up my end here.  Will gladly consider all thoughts on how we should 
proceed here.  Thanks much to all.  I never expected this much when I 
walked in here.  I definitely want to take this as far as it can go.
Andy

On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 1:30:36 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 10:30:26 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thomas, tell me if this is an inappropriate suggestion, but I wonder if 
>> this thread has pretty much played out its level of pertinence and interest 
>> to the Leo community, since it's not directly about Leo and may be on a 
>> subject of limited interest here.  Given your own zettelkasten-like program 
>> and your interest in knowledge and semantic processing, and your direct 
>> questions to me about my ideas (I'm working on it), would it be appropriate 
>> for us to continue the discussion by email?  That would be much easier for 
>> me, but if not appropriate I'll continue here, though this thread waxes 
>> long now and I feel I don't function well in a forum venue.  
>>
>
> I've been wondering the same thing.  Trouble is, if we use email, it's 
> just us, and we miss out on other people's  thinking.  We could set up a 
> whole new Google group, but I'd like to keep the discussion in the Leo 
> context if we can do so - would you agree?  And it's clear that there is 
> some degree of interest, as we see from @Xavier's post.
>
> What I'm thinking is to open a new thread in the Leo group - and to keep 
> opening new threads when and as one gets too long to work with.  Just now, 
> we're wrestling with what we really want to accomplish and how it ought to 
> work, and it would make sense to open a new thread on requirements and 
> concept of operation (this could include your narratives).  How's this 
> sound to everyone? 
>
> I've gone beyond the requirements I posted a few days ago, and tried to 
> come up with a note format that
>
>1. Can be typed and read easily;
>2. Can be processed by software easily;
>3. Could be used in a paper Zettelkasten if one really had to do that;
>4. The system could export note files in this format without too much 
>difficulty;
>5. Contains most of the essential information, so that the software 
>could reconstruct the entire zettelkasten just from these notes if need be 
>(possibly with a small amount of information loss);
>
> I think I've gotten most of this.  The main things I haven't worked out so 
> far are links to other notes that might be embodied right in the text of 
> the note (if we really want these). and similarly how links to other 
> non-text media would be captured in the zettel.  There is no end of ways 
> these things could be done, and my interest is in coming up with something 
> that is especially easy to type and read.
>
> Why my emphasis on typing the zettels?  Because the alternative is to use 
> some software system that tries to "help" you.  Now we'll certainly want 
> something like that as an option, but having to use a number of select or 
> drop-down lists or whatnot all the time really interferes with one's flow.  
> Straight typing is better where possible.
>
> In my concept of operations, one would be able to type into a new zettel - 
> either in a Leo node or even in a separate file - and then the system would 
> hook it up based on the info you typed.  Later, the system would help you 
> change, add to, or update the references;  you could do that when you 
> weren't so involved with the thoughts you were typing.
>

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zk-requirements-aj-comments
Description: Binary data

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thank you, got it, and will reply. I had been thinking if I just opened 
your attachment it should display rendered. Didn't realize that for some 
reason it doesn't do that unless it's downloaded. Don't understand it, but 
that's ok.  Many things in life I don't understand...

Thomas, tell me if this is an inappropriate suggestion, but I wonder if 
this thread has pretty much played out its level of pertinence and interest 
to the Leo community, since it's not directly about Leo and may be on a 
subject of limited interest here.  Given your own zettelkasten-like program 
and your interest in knowledge and semantic processing, and your direct 
questions to me about my ideas (I'm working on it), would it be appropriate 
for us to continue the discussion by email?  That would be much easier for 
me, but if not appropriate I'll continue here, though this thread waxes 
long now and I feel I don't function well in a forum venue.  

Some may ask why then did I post here? Well, I can function, just not well, 
in my opinion. And I did want help. And I do indeed recognize and 
appreciate the time, consideration and help given here. No disappointment 
at all, nor disrespect intended, just wondering if it's time to continue it 
elsewhere.

Andy
andyjim47-at-gmail-dot-com

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 10:08:10 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> I have put the HTML file on my server at
>
> http://tompassin.net/pub/zettel/zettel_requirements.html
>
> You can just open it in your browser at that address.
>
> On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 8:04:06 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 10:36:59 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thomas, sorry for my ignorance but what do I need to do to view your 
>>> HTML file rendered?  I can dig out the text as is, but rendering it would 
>>> make it a lot easier.  I'm not HTML literate.
>>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thomas, I will respond to your notes, and I'm working on a concise 
description of my envisioned system.

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 2:01:16 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
> Here's another potentially useful paper -
>
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/msbernst/papers/p337-vankleek.pdf
>
> The actual software project is now defunct, but we might get some ideas 
> from it.
>
> On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 9:43:17 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>>
>> Here's something interesting.  Remember the Memex, described by Vannebar 
>> Bush in 1945?  It sounded like a mixture of the Web and a zettelkasten, 
>> with better media input means than perhaps we have today.  Well, someone is 
>> trying to actually build one, or at least something as close as he can get 
>> given that the article was only a notional sketch of an idea, and that 
>> technology has changed a lot  since then.  Take a look -
>>
>> http://memexsim.sourceforge.net/index.html
>>
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

"Nonsense.  Anyone over the age of 7 can learn python."

Love it!  Where do I start?  More politely, could you recommend a handful 
of what you consider the best resources/approach for a beginning 
programmer?  I may or may not dig in, but I might as well give myself the 
opportunity and exposure. Actually I've had a very modest exposure to 
programming and I have heard that python is one of the easier languages to 
learn.  How come?  Intuitive?  Simple?  Works the way the mind works?  

My age is the exact minimum age you mentioned...but with another digit 
following.

Andy

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 5:25:45 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 5:06 PM andyjim > 
> wrote:
>
> Sure wish I were a programmer.  Sometimes I've thought maybe I should dive 
>> into programming just to gain the skills to build this myself, but I think 
>> that's likely way too ambitious, especially at my age.
>>
>
> Nonsense. Anyone over the age of 7 can learn python. The trick is not 
> minding all the mistakes you are going to make :-)
>
>> But if/when someone here wants to/has time to give it a look, I would 
>> love to have the opportunity to submit a more lengthy 'essay' 
>>
>
> Length is not your friend in convincing others.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thanks much Matt and Thomas.  I have many pages of notes on this, and as I 
looked at some notes from 2-3 years ago most of them lack clarity, though 
some are better than others.  One approach I thought I might take is to 
'narrate' a work session with my envisioned program. Describe what I am 
wanting to do, how search and navigation plays out, what does a 'standard 
zettle' do and not do, etc.  The steps I take and how the software 
responds, what I see happening.  That might bring me about as close as I 
can get without a working software.  Might be better than just trying to 
list desirable features, which I have done a lot of. Some of my past notes 
are so vague that I hardly understand now what I was trying to say! But I 
think my ideas have slowly gotten clearer in the past couple of years, but 
I have yet to spell it out clearly in nouns and verbs.  iow I think it's 
clearer in my mind, but not yet in text.  I'll see what I can do but it's 
going to take some time. What should I do once I get something written? 
Post it in this same thread (which is getting long)?  I'll just do it in a  
plain text file, since I don't know any markdown/up anyway. 
Thomas, sorry for my ignorance but what do I need to do to view your HTML 
file rendered?  I can dig out the text as is, but rendering it would make 
it a lot easier.  I'm not HTML literate.

Thanks for your gentle and patient assistance.
Andy

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 9:28:32 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 6:06:33 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sure wish I were a programmer.  Sometimes I've thought maybe I should 
>> dive into programming just to gain the skills to build this myself, but I 
>> think that's likely way too ambitious, especially at my age.
>> But if/when someone here wants to/has time to give it a look, I would 
>> love to have the opportunity to submit a more lengthy 'essay' outlining in 
>> some detail what I've evolved in my imagination over a few years of 
>> thinking about this.  Naming a few features doesn't get the idea across.  I 
>> haven't written it up in one piece as yet.  I need to scramble through all 
>> my past notes about it; might take 3-5 pages.  Heck, maybe it's not as good 
>> a set of ideas as I think, but what I envision sure appeals to me for what 
>> I do with writing.  Wish I'd had it 20 years ago.
>>
>  
> I have written an initial set of user requirements (attached), and I would 
> appreciate your thoughts on them.  These are very high level requirements, 
> and they don't include any actual user interface ideas.  Instead, they are 
> things that I think any UI would have to honor.  I have tried to abstract 
> from written work on paper zettelkasten systems.  I also tried out several 
> (free) zettel-programs for Windows, none of which worked well at all for me.
>
> One key point for me is a need to prevent lock-in to this - or any - 
> particular system by either keeping the zettelkasten in the form of text 
> note files, or having the ability to export a complete set of such files.  
> In the worst case, I picture to myself, one could print out the text notes 
> and actually use them as is in a physical zettelkasten.  I think this is so 
> important that I made it the first requirement.
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thank you again Edward.  I wandered in here shyly with an idea I didn't 
think would get much attention.  And it still may not warrant or deserve a 
lot of interest here.  Also the Leo community is about to begin work on 6.2 
so I expect there isn't time to spare on something like this.  Nonetheless 
I'm surprised and grateful for what attention and comment it has received.

I want to say that I have only touched here on my ideas about it. The 
zettelkasten concept is central to it indeed, but there's a lot more to my 
whole concept than the zettelkasten model.  I've spent several years 
dreaming, as a non-programmer, on an optimal program for the writer, 
note-taker, organizer, thinker, journaler, what have you . All assembled, 
my ideas (some my own, some already implemented somewhere) would, imo, make 
a better program for this kind of work than anything I've been able to find 
(had I found it I'd already have it).

Sure wish I were a programmer.  Sometimes I've thought maybe I should dive 
into programming just to gain the skills to build this myself, but I think 
that's likely way too ambitious, especially at my age.
But if/when someone here wants to/has time to give it a look, I would love 
to have the opportunity to submit a more lengthy 'essay' outlining in some 
detail what I've evolved in my imagination over a few years of thinking 
about this.  Naming a few features doesn't get the idea across.  I haven't 
written it up in one piece as yet.  I need to scramble through all my past 
notes about it; might take 3-5 pages.  Heck, maybe it's not as good a set 
of ideas as I think, but what I envision sure appeals to me for what I do 
with writing.  Wish I'd had it 20 years ago.

Andy

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 6:48:32 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:40 AM Thomas Passin  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Can you imagine trying to work with thousands or tens of thousands of 
>> nodes in the outline pane?  
>>
>
> It could be done easily, if that is what you wanted.
>
>> Instead, I can see using an @zettel tree whereby if you put a node name 
>> into the headline of the node, Leo would open that note and any notes it 
>> linked to.  You could keep them in a group forever in the outline if you 
>> liked, or delete the tree when you were done with that activity. 
>>
>
> Yes, something like this is reasonable.
>
>> You would have the wiki-like ability to create a new note by using its 
>> name if it didn't already exist.
>>
>
> A plugin would keep track of all existing names somewhere, perhaps in a 
> uA, perhaps in a special node.
>
>> Would this be better than using Zettelr?  
>>
>
> Imo, it is clear that Leo's organization strengths will easily handle 
> whatever tasks we give it.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thomas, thank you for devoting some time to thinking about this.  It's more 
than I could reasonably expect.  Tried to PM you but seems it didn't go 
through.  I agree that files need to be plain text or markdown, even though 
undoubtedly a database-based system would offer advantages. The 'no 
proprietary formats' principle is part of why I quit using Word five years 
ago and went to Vim and plain text.

I do not quite grasp your Lucene scheme but I have myself wondered about 
arranging my past notes text files into units in a clear format with 
headers (containing tags, etc) and 'code' such that a parser could process 
those files, dice out the individual units and load them into a usable 
system.

For what it's worth I'm on MacOS (refugee from Windows) so don't know if 
that makes something like that more feasible for me anyway.  I do think 
that a good zettelkasten system will require tags, keywords, links, 
indexes, not just text searches.  I think some mapping capabilities would 
be extremely helpful too. A map of tag connections where I could traverse a 
search-generated tag map and access the tagged files would be nice.

I did not quite grasp your ideas about an @zettel tree though it sounds 
interesting.  I'm not familiar enough with Leo I guess, but I'm all for 
maps, trees, webs.  That's kind of an underlying principle with 
zettelkasten.  It's a web of ideas/thoughts that serves as an extension of 
the mind.  Very exciting.

I've heard of noSQL databases that are 'document-based', but I have little 
clue what that means or whether it offers anything useful here.

I suspect the notion of somehow building a better zettelkasten system more 
or less within the Leo architecture (if that's the correct word) is 
probably asking too much, but of course what do I know? Maybe it's doable, 
since Leo seems already to contain most if not all its principles, plus 
principles of its own that could further extend/enhance the zettelkasten 
usefulness.  In any case I hope you can find zettelkasten useful in some 
way.
Andy

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:40:01 AM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
> As I think about how Leo could be useful with the zettel-box approach, I 
> do see a way.  But it's not to have each note be a node in a Leo outline.  
> Can you imagine trying to work with thousands or tens of thousands of nodes 
> in the outline pane?  Instead, I can see using an @zettel tree whereby if 
> you put a node name into the headline of the node, Leo would open that note 
> and any notes it linked to.  You could keep them in a group forever in the 
> outline if you liked, or delete the tree when you were done with that 
> activity. 
>
> You would be able to edit any note just like any other markdown node.  In 
> the vewrendered pane you could see a rendered view of the note or the whole 
> tree it was in.  Possibly you could get other kinds of views in the VR 
> pane.  I would favor a mind map type view, myself.
>
> You would be able to launch full text searches of the notes. I'm thinking 
> that the Python Whoosh search engine would be good for that.
>
> You would have the wiki-like ability to create a new note by using its 
> name if it didn't already exist.
>
> Would this be better than using Zettelr?  I don't know, I just installed 
> it and haven't played with it except to see that it has a very good ability 
> to import many file formats, including LibreOffice documents, and convert 
> them to markdown.  Maybe that would be the way to go - use Zettelr to 
> convert to markdown, and then use Leo to work with the converted notes. 
> You'd still be able to use Zettelr for anything it was better at.
>

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Mechanics of private messages in the forum

[andyjim]

Another dumb question (I've got a million of 'em, but sorry to take up 
bandwidth with them).

I see how to send a private message, and have done so, but that message 
'disappeared', so I cannot review it and don't know if the intended 
recipient got it. The intended recipient has posted again in the thread, 
but I don't know if that was a private message to me or a public post. How 
do I know when I've received a private message, and how can I view a 
private message I've sent?  I haven't found a help item that answers this.

Andy

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Re: How to start up Leo the dumb way

[andyjim]

Thanks much Matt, that worked, so I now have a launch icon (plus I learned 
a smidgen about button use).  I happened to have a terminal open when I 
launched it, and it opened a another terminal, leaving the first one 
usable.  When I don't already have a terminal open and launch Leo from the 
shortcut, I cannot open a second terminal.  So I either need to launch Leo 
in terminal to run in background, or open a terminal before launching Leo 
from the shortcut. 

Oh! I just found out I *can *open another terminal (when Leo is running in 
the first one) by right-clicking the terminal shortcut, where it gives the 
option to open another window! Ok, problem solved three different ways.

Thanks again,
Andy

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:28:28 AM UTC-5, Matt Wilkie wrote:
>
> You could try "Settings >> Open desktop integration" and then use the 
> [add-desktop-links] button. 
>
> I'm the author but I've not had access to a Mac in order to test it. It 
> relies on an external module which supports Mac so it might "just work".
>
> Failing that, add ampersand (&) after any command in Terminal  to make it 
> run in the background and not tie it up (should work on any 'nix machine). 
> Any messages from the background app still print to the terminal so it can 
> get messy, but at least it still available for use.
>
> -matt
>
>
> On Thursday, 30 January 2020 16:48:28 UTC-8, andyjim wrote:
>>
>> Really dumb question, I know.  MacOS system. I'd like to launch Leo from 
>> the launch bar instead of from terminal (which is the only way I know to 
>> launch it). But it ties up the terminal so I can't use it for anything else 
>> while Leo is running (not that I use terminal much, but occasionally), plus 
>> it would be easier/quicker to launch from icon.  I don't find a launchLeo 
>> or a runLeo file on my system.
>> Andy
>>
>

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Re: How to start up Leo the dumb way

[andyjim]

I guess I don't know how to open an additional terminal. When I click the 
icon it just switches focus to the existing terminal rather than opening 
another one.

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 9:19:12 PM UTC-5, tfer wrote:
>
> I can't help you with making a shortcut, but if you start another terminal 
> session, that terminal will be free,and not be tied up waiting for Leo to 
> terminate.
>
> On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 7:48:28 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>> Really dumb question, I know.  MacOS system. I'd like to launch Leo from 
>> the launch bar instead of from terminal (which is the only way I know to 
>> launch it). But it ties up the terminal so I can't use it for anything else 
>> while Leo is running (not that I use terminal much, but occasionally), plus 
>> it would be easier/quicker to launch from icon.  I don't find a launchLeo 
>> or a runLeo file on my system.
>> Andy
>>
>

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How to start up Leo the dumb way

[andyjim]

Really dumb question, I know.  MacOS system. I'd like to launch Leo from 
the launch bar instead of from terminal (which is the only way I know to 
launch it). But it ties up the terminal so I can't use it for anything else 
while Leo is running (not that I use terminal much, but occasionally), plus 
it would be easier/quicker to launch from icon.  I don't find a launchLeo 
or a runLeo file on my system.
Andy

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Definitely, Thomas, and thanks so much for your interest. What I recommend 
as a starting point is to get one or more Zettelkasten programs yourself to 
familiarize yourself with the concepts and also the sort of GUI that is 
generally used. 

https://zettelkasten.de/ is a general site on Zettelkasten, but the authors 
have their own, called The Archive. Free. I have it but haven't gone much 
into it as yet. 
https://github.com/EFLS/zetteldeft  is one for emacs  (I don't have it)
https://takesmartnotes.com/  An entire book on the ideas. Under 'The Book' 
on the homepage you can get the first chapter in pdf, which is really an 
Intro, and does a great job of it. Well worth reading.
https://www.zettlr.com/  A writer produced this version. I have it but 
haven't done much with it yet. Free.
https://roamresearch.com/  looks great but I think it's cloud-based, 
subscription.
https://writingcooperative.com/zettelkasten-how-one-german-scholar-was-so-freakishly-productive-997e4e0ca125
  
Article on the theory and practice
https://github.com/renerocksai/sublimeless_zk  The guy that wrote the 
plugin for Sublime wrote this to stand alone. Looks PDG to me, but he seems 
to have abandoned it 2 yrs ago. Free, I have it.

I think only a couple of these will import, which is one reason I turned to 
Leo, besides that I think Leo's capabilities for this kind of thing are 
probably more robust, just need to be wrapped together in a neat package.  
But what do I know?  If you pursue this you will shortly be more of a 
Zetteler than I currently am. My learning pace is slow.
Andy


On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 11:35:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas Passin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 10:45:58 PM UTC-5, andyjim wrote:
>>
>> Many thanks to all. I've only just now got back to this thread and 
>> gratified to see tips have kept coming in.  It will take me awhile to check 
>> all these out but it looks good indeed. 
>>
>> I also want to put in a plug here if I may, for someone to undertake a 
>> robust Zettelkasten plugin for Leo.  I think Zettelkasten is the best 
>> available idea for notes, and I think Leo may be capable of implementing it 
>> better than anyone else has done (disclaimer: this is the relatively 
>> uninformed opinion of a Leo newbie and a non-programmer as well). It seems 
>> to me (again as a complete newbie) that Leo already utilizes some (maybe 
>> all?) of the core principles of Zettelkasten, and more besides, that would 
>> only enhance the concept.  It could truly be a marvelous piece of 
>> software.  Wish I knew python.
>>
>
> I put a lot of time some years ago looking into how to get the most out of 
> my browser bookmarks, and I arrived at some of the same principles as I now 
> read about for a Zettelkaste.  And I tackled some of the things that seem 
> to be glossed over in the material I've seen on Zettelkastens.  You can 
> read a paper about the work here -
>
>
> http://conferences.idealliance.org/extreme/html/2003/Passin01/EML2003Passin01.html
>
> The user interface is much better now, but the underlying system is the 
> same.  Briefly, with a typical browser, you can save bookmarks in (virtual) 
> folders.  But the only information you can store are 1) the title of the 
> page, and 2) the folder name that you create.  Not much to go on.  I wanted 
> to get the most possible out of it. Some of the difficulties come from the 
> size of a large collection (I have more than 20,000 bookmarks).  You can't 
> remember most of it, and you can't remember the folder names where you put 
> things.  Over time, you may get duplicates, and you will probably invent 
> new folder names even though they may do the same job as the older ones.  
> And you will probably end up with the same bookmark in several folders.  
> How do you find things, and how do you find related pages?  Oh, and the 
> system needs to be very simple to use or it won't be used.
>
> Do these issues sound familiar?
>
> Well, my system is limited to bookmarks, and it has some limitations to 
> work around the fact that you can't store data to the file system from a 
> browser.  OTOH, it doesn't need to use a database, and it runs in the 
> browser.
>
> Why I'm bringing this up here is that from time to time I toy with ideas 
> for generalizing it to go beyond bookmarks (you can already annotate 
> bookmarks with the system, which is much like linking notes to web pages - 
> trouble is, it's very clumsy at present).  I could see implementing some 
> variation in Leo.
>
> The real difficulty in coming up with a system like this is in making it 
> work at a large scale; that and a good interface.  With a Zettelkasten, you 
> want to link a note to other related ones.  But how do you find those other 
> relat

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thanks so much Edward for checking in here. The page that you linked to 
here concerns one minor feature, and doesn't offer a picture of what 
Zettelkasten is, though there's quite a bit on that website. Um, I'm no 
expert on Zettelkasten, and certainly not on Leo, but I still believe Leo 
is probably capable of most if not all features of Zettelkasten and more, 
but the idea of a Zettelkasten plugin would be to wrap it all into a slick, 
dedicated framework.
I guess what I'm proposing really would amount to a stand alone program 
with its own GUI, etc that incorporates all Zettelkasten and some 
additional Leo features. Remember I'm not a programmer but as I think about 
it, it looks to me like probably way more than just a plugin, and I begin 
to think I'm probably dreaming way too big and asking way too much here.
If I had to describe Zettelkasten in one sentence: It's a framework for 
creative thinking, building a personal thoughtbase and from that 
thoughtbase to generate and express new ideas, create documents (up to book 
size), and more. Much more a tool for writers, academics, psychologists, 
journalers (more or less my gig), sociologists and such than a programmer's 
tool.
That said, if anyone feels moved to look into it, I'll offer a few links to 
introduce the basic concept.

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 6:58:25 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:46 PM andyjim > 
> wrote:
>
> I want to put in a plug here for someone to undertake a robust Zettelkasten 
>> plugin for Leo. 
>>
>
> I did a google search on Zettelkasten. The first hit on the search 
> <https://zettelkasten.de/> suggests auto-completing links that might not 
> exist yet. That's a pretty cool idea. It should be straightforward to do. 
> Is that generally what you are thinking of?
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Many thanks to all. I've only just now got back to this thread and 
gratified to see tips have kept coming in.  It will take me awhile to check 
all these out but it looks good indeed. 

I want to put in a plug here for someone to undertake a robust Zettelkasten 
plugin for Leo.  I think Zettelkasten is the best available idea for notes, 
and I think Leo may implement it better than anyone else has done 
(disclaimer: this is the relatively uninformed opinion of a Leo newbie and 
a non-programmer as well). It seems to me (again as a complete newbie) that 
Leo already utilizes some (maybe all?) of the core principles of 
Zettelkasten, and more besides, that would only enhance the concept.  It 
would truly be a marvelous piece of software.  Wish I knew python.


On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 2:24:54 PM UTC-5, Matt Wilkie wrote:
>
> Chapters are indeed useful and are generally speaking a more organized 
>> type of hoisting. They're not often discussed so I would also encourage 
>> checking them out as a means of organization.
>>
>
> Until today I never understood what Chapters were and have just deleted 
> them from my docs. A self imposed ignorance because I hadn't bothered to 
> read up on them, or rather I read but since 'hoist' didn't mean anything 
> the definition didn't help and I lacked the motivation to keep digging into 
> further definitions! Thanks for the bump.
>
> For the record of other dwelling-in-darkeness people like myself:
>
> Hoist & dehoist 
>
> Hoisting a node redraws the screen that node and its descendants becomes 
> the only visible part of the outline. Leo prevents the you from moving 
> nodes outside the hoisted outline. Dehoisting a node restores the outline. 
> Multiple hoists may be in effect: each dehoist undoes the effect of the 
> immediately preceding hoist.
>
> Using Chapters 
> @chapter trees define chapters. Selecting a chapter makes only those nodes 
> in the chapter visible, much like a hoist
>
> -matt
>
>

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Re: Zettelkasten - Notes Jim but not as we know them.

[andyjim]

I'm a journaler, a note-taker, not a programmer.  I've looked for years for 
the right organizer for notes. I now think Zettelkasten is it, but haven't 
found a Zettelkasten program that seems adequate. I'm a very raw beginner 
with Leo, but I'll venture that Leo would be the perfect platform for 
Zettelkasten.  I hope someone will take it up.

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 9:00:23 AM UTC-5, Israel Hands wrote:
>
> While looking at the 'rest' mainly for a more graphic view of notes I came 
> across what might be the opposite.  The Archive. It's a MacOs notes 
> organiser based on  Zettelkasten methodology. Which as far I can see means 
> no categories/hierarchies. Which interestingly Tinderbox kind of espouses. 
> https://zettelkasten.de/the-archive/  One thing I found interesting was 
> their implementation  of tags. 
>
> Use a hash before a word - #ThisIsATag and the note becomes tagged with 
> the tag. Click on the tag and all other notes instantly disappear  from the 
> tree. It's not really a tree you see  but a search bar.
>
> I tentatively think this would be cool in Leo 
>
> It also has links between notes but I haven't explored them yet.
>
> The Archive - stores all notes as text files in a single directory so 
> interoperability with Leo is easy enough.
>
> Ta
>
> IH
>
>
>

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Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Chris and Lewis, thanks.  I think you've got me started.  I'm sure I'll be 
back for more soon.
Andy

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 9:51:51 PM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> I feel for you. It took me a while to get rolling too.
>
> If any of this is confusing, ask questions.
>
> The very best advice I can give you is to open LeoDocs.leo from within Leo.
>
> File, Open Specific Leo File, LeoDocs.leo
>
> Start at Leo's Documentation in the Outline Pane and slowly work your way 
> through. This documentation is preferred to the website as it is much 
> easier to navigate and to search.
>
> The tutorials can be handy, the FAQ contains most of the entry level bits 
> you are looking for..
>
> And ask questions here. The documentation is in general excellent but the 
> steep learning curve can be intimidating. The documentation can always be 
> improved and has been many times during my time using Leo, often after I 
> expressed my own frustrations with understanding how to make Leo do what I 
> want it to do.
>
> A quick overview of plugins requires and understanding of how settings 
> work. This is not going to be comprehensive, but should give you the 
> general idea.
>
> There are different levels of setting. The more local settings take 
> precedence.
>
> LeoSettings.leo are the default settings. Do not mess with these at all, 
> ever. Do take the time to read through them. When you come across a setting 
> you would like to change, copy that node and paste it into 
> myLeoSettings.leo which are your user settings. THe next level of settings 
> is local to an individual Leo file but we can skip that for now.
>
> So for plugins we want to copy the @enabled-plugins node to from 
> LeoSettings.leo and paste it into myLeoSettings.leo as a child node of 
> @settings. Then you can edit this node and the changes will take precedence 
> over the same node in LeoSettings.leo. To enable a plugin simply delete the 
> # in front of it, save myLeoSettings.leo, close Leo and re-open Leo. From 
> the Plugins menu you can select a plugin and the docstring will appear in 
> the rendered pane to give you an idea how it works.
>
> Again, ask questions. Don't be embarrassed. I started into Leo in 2007 and 
> it took me two years to get really comfortable with it. Now I spend most of 
> my time at my computer in Leo.
>
> HTH,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 6:14 PM andyjim > 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Chris, your comments are encouraging.  But I do not know how to 
>> install plugins.  I do not know how to use plugins.  I do not know how to 
>> use directives.  I do not know how to open files in Leo.  I've looked 
>> around, tried to find my way through the maze, tried some things based on 
>> what I did find.  Nothing has worked so far.  I do not find clear 
>> instructions for the beginner, spelling out the most basic of things in a 
>> clear, step by step way.  I hate to drop Leo just because I'm too dumb to 
>> figure it out, as it looks too good, but so far it seems not to have an 
>> entry path for the (non-programming) beginner.  If there is such an entry 
>> path ("Complete dummies start here!") I'd be grateful to be pointed in that 
>> direction.
>> Andy
>>
>> On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:45:08 PM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM andyjim  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Uh, complete newbie here, and I feel like I'm walking into a high end 
>>>> programmers convention here and raising my hand red-faced to ask for a bit 
>>>> of kindergarten help. Everything in this forum is Greek to me. I am NOT a 
>>>> programmer. Repeat: I am not a programmer.
>>>>
>>>> Welcome, Andy. I am not a programmer either, but I have been using Leo 
>>> for a bit over a decade.
>>>  
>>>
>>>> My intended usage for Leo is organizing notes & ideas. I'm raising my 
>>>> hand here because perhaps Leo's outlining/organizing capabilities may be 
>>>> what I need. I'm hoping folks here can tell me if I'm even knocking on the 
>>>> right door by looking at Leo. But it looks like Leo's flexibility in 
>>>> outlining may be unsurpassed and may be what I'm looking for. Hope so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Leo can be without peer when it comes to organizing notes and ideas.
>>>  
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've looked for years for a software to help me organize my notes and 
>>>> ideas. 
>>>>
>>>  
>>> It took me a while to find Leo. I run lin

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thanks Chris, your comments are encouraging.  But I do not know how to 
install plugins.  I do not know how to use plugins.  I do not know how to 
use directives.  I do not know how to open files in Leo.  I've looked 
around, tried to find my way through the maze, tried some things based on 
what I did find.  Nothing has worked so far.  I do not find clear 
instructions for the beginner, spelling out the most basic of things in a 
clear, step by step way.  I hate to drop Leo just because I'm too dumb to 
figure it out, as it looks too good, but so far it seems not to have an 
entry path for the (non-programming) beginner.  If there is such an entry 
path ("Complete dummies start here!") I'd be grateful to be pointed in that 
direction.
Andy

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:45:08 PM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM andyjim > 
> wrote:
>
>> Uh, complete newbie here, and I feel like I'm walking into a high end 
>> programmers convention here and raising my hand red-faced to ask for a bit 
>> of kindergarten help. Everything in this forum is Greek to me. I am NOT a 
>> programmer. Repeat: I am not a programmer.
>>
>> Welcome, Andy. I am not a programmer either, but I have been using Leo 
> for a bit over a decade.
>  
>
>> My intended usage for Leo is organizing notes & ideas. I'm raising my 
>> hand here because perhaps Leo's outlining/organizing capabilities may be 
>> what I need. I'm hoping folks here can tell me if I'm even knocking on the 
>> right door by looking at Leo. But it looks like Leo's flexibility in 
>> outlining may be unsurpassed and may be what I'm looking for. Hope so.
>>
>
> Leo can be without peer when it comes to organizing notes and ideas.
>  
>
>>
>> I've looked for years for a software to help me organize my notes and 
>> ideas. 
>>
>  
> It took me a while to find Leo. I run linux and used to have spotty 
> Internet, so a program that supported clones and wasn't a website was 
> important to me.
>
>  
>
>> Here's the problem: I've been journaling for 25 years, writing thoughts, 
>> notes, ideas on probably hundreds of topics, and totaling probably a few 
>> million words in a few thousand files. But I haven't done much organizing. 
>> Most of my journal files have notes on multiple topics. Generally my files 
>> are named by date rather than topic, though I have perhaps a few hundred by 
>> topic. For years I wrote in Word, often using outline format, usually 
>> writing most notes in one file per year, in outline format. If you're 
>> concluding it's a mess, you are right (though it could be worse). What's 
>> not in Word is mostly in text files. I switched to writing in Vim a few 
>> years ago, and am now writing in Spacemacs. Org mode has been recommended 
>> to me but I have not undertaken it. I suspect Leo is better than org mode 
>> for my needs but who am I to know? Is it?
>>
>
> Step one for me was converting my knowledge base into text files. Step two 
> was getting it all into Leo. Step three (which I am still doing) was 
> organizing it all.
>
> For example, a text file that came out of a wordprocessor would often have 
> a headline and a bunch of text. Once imported into a node I would select 
> all of the text I would like in a new node, including the headline, and hit 
> Ctrl-Shift-D. This creates a child node with the headline as the node 
> headline and the balance of the selected text as the node. Very quick, very 
> easy.
>  
>
>>
>> My project, which will undoubtedly take a couple of years, is to class 
>> and organize all notes into a "thoughtbase", perhaps comparable in some 
>> ways to a Zettelkasten. I want to sort through the mess, clip notes out by 
>> topic and organize them such that I can readily access anything and 
>> everything. I hope to cluster topics under a few (perhaps 25) main 
>> headings, some number of sub-headings, and individual topics with all notes 
>> on each topic stacked together.
>>
>
> Using clones you can create whatever organizational scheme you like. Add 
> in a couple of plugins, like bookmarks, tags, and backlinks, and that 
> ability explodes.
>  
>
>>
>> Perhaps there's a book or two or three there, but to find such a book or 
>> books will require that all this be organized so I can see it, access it, 
>> massage it, move clips around, stack them up, try things, remember things I 
>> wrote 20 years ago,  Sound like fun? You don't have to answer that.
>>
>> My thought is to arrange all this in external plain text files initially, 
>> with the outline organization being in 

Re: Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Thank you Lewis.  Unfortunately I do not know how to open this file in 
Leo.  Maybe some day I'll figure it out.  Somehow I fail to find 
instructions how to do the simple things: Open a file. Enable and use a 
plugin, or even a directive.  I've tried some things but haven't got off 
the ground.  It seems like programmers are born knowing the fundamentals. 
If there is a very simple, fundamental introduction to how to do the most 
basic and elementary of beginner's things in Leo, I have failed to find it.

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 5:30:25 AM UTC-5, lewis wrote:
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> Re: My project, which will undoubtedly take a couple of years, is to class 
> and organize all notes into a "thoughtbase"
>
> I have attached a simple small file which demonstrates the power of Leo 
> clones. It is a list which uses clones to organise and classify items.
> One way I use Leo-editor is to manage material lists for engineering. You 
> can see it can be easily adapted to manage any list and operate as a 
> database.
> There is no need to have the Master list of cloned items; I only use that 
> for convenience.
>
> Under the settings there is a node (@button Show-Clones) which presents 
> Leo's *show-clones* command in a simple to use menu button.
> Select any cloned item and press the Show-Clones menu button. The log pane 
> will show clickable links!
> In effect this is a 'Where Used' report from the data.
>
> You can use clones as attributes of an item or Topic, and may be well 
> suited to your task of organising main headings, and any number of 
> sub-headings.
>
> I am not a programmer either, but via Leo and the community I have learnt 
> how to write python scripts and also simple external python programs.
>
> Regards
> Lewis
>

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Leo for organizing notes?

[andyjim]

Uh, complete newbie here, and I feel like I'm walking into a high end 
programmers convention here and raising my hand red-faced to ask for a bit 
of kindergarten help. Everything in this forum is Greek to me. I am NOT a 
programmer. Repeat: I am not a programmer.

My intended usage for Leo is organizing notes & ideas. I'm raising my hand 
here because perhaps Leo's outlining/organizing capabilities may be what I 
need. I'm hoping folks here can tell me if I'm even knocking on the right 
door by looking at Leo. But it looks like Leo's flexibility in outlining 
may be unsurpassed and may be what I'm looking for. Hope so.

I've looked for years for a software to help me organize my notes and 
ideas. Here's the problem: I've been journaling for 25 years, writing 
thoughts, notes, ideas on probably hundreds of topics, and totaling 
probably a few million words in a few thousand files. But I haven't done 
much organizing. Most of my journal files have notes on multiple topics. 
Generally my files are named by date rather than topic, though I have 
perhaps a few hundred by topic. For years I wrote in Word, often using 
outline format, usually writing most notes in one file per year, in outline 
format. If you're concluding it's a mess, you are right (though it could be 
worse). What's not in Word is mostly in text files. I switched to writing 
in Vim a few years ago, and am now writing in Spacemacs. Org mode has been 
recommended to me but I have not undertaken it. I suspect Leo is better 
than org mode for my needs but who am I to know? Is it?

My project, which will undoubtedly take a couple of years, is to class and 
organize all notes into a "thoughtbase", perhaps comparable in some ways to 
a Zettelkasten. I want to sort through the mess, clip notes out by topic 
and organize them such that I can readily access anything and everything. I 
hope to cluster topics under a few (perhaps 25) main headings, some number 
of sub-headings, and individual topics with all notes on each topic stacked 
together.

Perhaps there's a book or two or three there, but to find such a book or 
books will require that all this be organized so I can see it, access it, 
massage it, move clips around, stack them up, try things, remember things I 
wrote 20 years ago,  Sound like fun? You don't have to answer that.

My thought is to arrange all this in external plain text files initially, 
with the outline organization being in Leo, leaving the files external 
(eventually that is. Perhaps this isn't the best approach. But I'm getting 
ahead of myself. My first question is (and I'm hoping I've given a somewhat 
comprehensible thumbnail of what I'm looking for), is Leo capable of this, 
or perhaps Leo in combination with other software? Maybe some of the 
text-crunching and manipulating would be best done outside of Leo? BBEdit? 
DevonThink? InfoQube? Zettelkasten? Eastgate's Tinderbox? Heck I don't 
know.  Oh yeah, MacOS High Sierra on an older (2010) iMac; just installed 
Leo 6.1.

One reason I'm looking at Leo for this is that I think I'm going to have to 
just start bringing material into an outline system, note by note, and 
evolve the classing and relationships 'as she goes'. I think it would be 
too much to try to come up with the entire classing system out the outset. 
Evolve it instead. And I suspect that is where Leo may outshine any other. 
Is this true? Others claim similar qualities, where the optimum 
organization emerges as you bring more material into the system and deal 
with it as the spirit moves, piece by piece. Patterns emerge, relationships 
develop, that sort of thing. That is ultimately what needs to happen. Is 
Leo the best bet? Or some combo of software?

In addition to some general thoughts on all this, I'd like a few pointers 
to get me started. I have learned how to create an external file in Leo, 
but I haven't found how to open/import a file (text or Word). That will be 
a key function in putting together a thoughtbase. I'm sure Leo can do, but 
I haven't discovered how to do it. 

Thanks,  Andy

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Re: Noobie to try Leo on Mac OS for thoughts IDE

[andyjim]

Bingo!  That did it.  Thanks for the nbie-oriented instruction steps 
that assumed no prior knowledge.  Sometimes that's what it takes.  The only 
part that was unclear me (just for future reference) was 'its own 
directory'.  Huh? What directory is its own?  So I made a leap of faith, 
stuck the zip file in ~ (which fortunately I knew of) and let it create its 
own Leo-5.6 directory as it unzipped.  This only required a modicum of 
prior knowledge and a guess that this is as good a place as any for it.  I 
only say all this in case it helps someone help another rank newbie some 
time. :)  Thanks again, I'll dive in from here and no doubt will be back 
with more questions.  And by the way the simple statement, "Anaconda 
provides a python environment and Leo is a python program" was a good thing 
to say to me.  Perspective on the big picture is good and gives me the 
first step in a grip on what's going on.  These are the kinds of prior 
knowledge that is assumed in most installation instructions.  
Maybe there needs to be two sets of instructions, one for newbies that very 
briefly but clearly fills in almost all of the knowledge gaps and the other 
for the experienced person who only needs a few bare bones to understand 
what to do.  In my opinion the Arch Linux wiki is one of the best of the 
best in documentation.  Anything you don't understand probably has a link 
to further explanation, which in turn has links if you need even more 
concepts explained.  Some day I'll install Arch, but not yet.
Andy

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 10:09:33 AM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Installing Anaconda provides a python environment. Leo is a python 
> program, so you have made a good start.
>
> Unzip the Leo archive into its own directory. 
>
> Open the terminal (command line) and change to the directory you put Leo 
> in.
>
> Then type the following to start Leo with the defaults, including the 
> default workbook.
>
> python launchLeo.py
>
> This should get you started. These instructions would work on Linux and I 
> have no reason to think they would not work on a Mac, but I have zero 
> experience with Macs and could be wrong.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 6:48 AM, andyjim <andy...@gmail.com > 
> wrote:
>
>> Hmm, I see an active discussion on Leo installation initiated by EKR on 
>> 11/27/17, and I see you in that discussion.  Last post there is 12/15 but I 
>> assume work proceeds behind the scenes.  Also noticed mention of Leo 5.7, 
>> which may include better installation methods/instructions?  Any estimate 
>> on when 5.7 will birth? I'll keep digging on my own (not furiously, but 
>> hopefully with quiet persistence), but my ignorance is quite a hinderance, 
>> as much of what is mentioned is Greek to me.  I know that newbies as 
>> newbyish as I are not the primary user target group for Leo, so many 
>> assumptions are made about what the potential user already knows.  I have 
>> stuck my head through the doorway into a culture where I am a stranger, and 
>> much of the language eludes me.  That's ok, I'll plug away awhile longer 
>> before deciding to flee to more familiar pastures.  On the other hand, 
>> perhaps I am an ideal target for Leo-ites to work on how to reach out to a 
>> true dummie, and for how that true dummie may struggle through the morass 
>> and land with his feet on the ground.  It seems that the frustration of the 
>> Leo-ites is in part the weakness of will in the newbie.  We too easily feel 
>> overwhelmed and decide to give up.  I know that in my case, the moment I 
>> trip upon a term that is new to me and is used assuming I already know all 
>> about it, my perception/reaction is that a wall has been raised against my 
>> entry.  Now, seeking to peer over to the Leo-ite side of the wall, I think 
>> I hear gnashings of teeth and mutterings of, 'Why doesn't the fool take 
>> some initiative here?  Look up the d### term!  Do your homework!'.  I get 
>> that, and that is undoubtedly how those on the other side of the wall 
>> addressed their gaps back when they were themselves newbies.  Maybe the gap 
>> here is in part between the off-center user (i.e. the one whose use is not 
>> in the mainstream for this tool) and the developer (whose use IS the 
>> mainstream).  The 'shallow' user doesn't want to have to become a tool 
>> developer or even a beginner programmer just to learn how to use the tool.  
>> Leo, it seems, is targeted primarily to developers/programmers, whereas in 
>> my case I am not and never will be even a programmer (let alone developer), 
>> just a writer/journaler/notes organizer who may possibly someday learn a 
>> little pr

Re: Noobie to try Leo on Mac OS for thoughts IDE

[andyjim]

Hmm, I see an active discussion on Leo installation initiated by EKR on 
11/27/17, and I see you in that discussion.  Last post there is 12/15 but I 
assume work proceeds behind the scenes.  Also noticed mention of Leo 5.7, 
which may include better installation methods/instructions?  Any estimate 
on when 5.7 will birth? I'll keep digging on my own (not furiously, but 
hopefully with quiet persistence), but my ignorance is quite a hinderance, 
as much of what is mentioned is Greek to me.  I know that newbies as 
newbyish as I are not the primary user target group for Leo, so many 
assumptions are made about what the potential user already knows.  I have 
stuck my head through the doorway into a culture where I am a stranger, and 
much of the language eludes me.  That's ok, I'll plug away awhile longer 
before deciding to flee to more familiar pastures.  On the other hand, 
perhaps I am an ideal target for Leo-ites to work on how to reach out to a 
true dummie, and for how that true dummie may struggle through the morass 
and land with his feet on the ground.  It seems that the frustration of the 
Leo-ites is in part the weakness of will in the newbie.  We too easily feel 
overwhelmed and decide to give up.  I know that in my case, the moment I 
trip upon a term that is new to me and is used assuming I already know all 
about it, my perception/reaction is that a wall has been raised against my 
entry.  Now, seeking to peer over to the Leo-ite side of the wall, I think 
I hear gnashings of teeth and mutterings of, 'Why doesn't the fool take 
some initiative here?  Look up the d### term!  Do your homework!'.  I get 
that, and that is undoubtedly how those on the other side of the wall 
addressed their gaps back when they were themselves newbies.  Maybe the gap 
here is in part between the off-center user (i.e. the one whose use is not 
in the mainstream for this tool) and the developer (whose use IS the 
mainstream).  The 'shallow' user doesn't want to have to become a tool 
developer or even a beginner programmer just to learn how to use the tool.  
Leo, it seems, is targeted primarily to developers/programmers, whereas in 
my case I am not and never will be even a programmer (let alone developer), 
just a writer/journaler/notes organizer who may possibly someday learn a 
little programming only to become a more adept user. 
I don't suppose these thoughts of mine belong in that installation 
discussion, as I think they're already quite aware of the problem, but I 
find myself wanting to express them somewhere, so here it is.
Somehow, someday there needs to be a wonderful IDE for 
thoughts/writings/journals/notes.  Most writer's software assumes the 
writer's need is to produce a document.  And I guess that's what writers 
do.  But thinkers produce thoughts/ideas; many of them, on many subjects.  
And organizing that is a challenge.  I don't need a document producing 
tool, I need a thought producing/organizing tool.  I have a rough design in 
mind for the tool that would suit me, but there is nothing like it 
available.  In fact, I redesigned it just recently with an idea for an 
entirely different keyboard design.  To me it's exciting, but it will never 
happen in practice.
Sorry for the rambling here.  Guess I'm blowing off some steam.  Thanks for 
listening.
Andy

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-5, Chris George wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> I am a writer who fled Windows seventeen years ago, but I ended up on 
> Linux. I have been using Leo since 2007.
>
> While I can't really help much with installing on a Mac, I can tell you 
> that Leo will be suitable for your task. I have learned to use it for 
> everything, to the point that other than a web browser, it is about all I 
> use on a daily basis.
>
> Once installed, the learning curve is what you make of it. I learn 
> something new about Leo on a regular basis. I have read through the 
> documentation three or four times and am due for another go through. I have 
> learned a little bit about python over the years as well, but I am not a 
> programmer. As such, I feel that the power and utility of Leo is like a 
> deep ocean underneath me, but what I need is easily accessible here on the 
> surface.
>
> Leo meets my needs. It structures my writing, organizes all of the clips, 
> quips, quotes, bookmarks, and soon it looks like it will be able to help me 
> easily organize all of my images, pdfs, video and audio files using the 
> same concepts. It keeps me organized. It keeps me productive.
>
> I encourage you to "give it a shake". I would also evangelize for Linux, 
> but that is an entirely different story. :-)
>
> Welcome aboard,
>
> Chris
>
> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:07 PM, andyjim <andy...@gmail.com > 
> wrote:
>
>> I want an IDE/organizer for thoughts, ideas, journaling, writing.  I 
>> have hundreds of past 

Re: Noobie to try Leo on Mac OS for thoughts IDE

[andyjim]

Thanks Geoff.  I'm afraid my rank ignorance is still hampering me here.  
I've installed Anaconda, though I have no idea what it's for or what to do 
with it other than have it.  I've downloaded Leo 5.6 from SourceForge but 
not sure what to do next.  Unzip it?  Where?  What else do I need to do 
before running the command you gave me?
Andy

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Noobie to try Leo on Mac OS for thoughts IDE

[andyjim]

 

I want an IDE/organizer for thoughts, ideas, journaling, writing.  I have 
hundreds of past files of journals/thoughts to parse and organize plus my 
ongoing thinking/journaling addiction.  Only thing I know of that may be 
close is Zettelkasten, but I haven’t dug into that yet, and don’t know if 
there’s a mature app for it.  I may be barking up the wrong tree here but 
thought I'd give Leo a try. 


Not only am I a noobie to Mac, I am not a programmer and not a Linux user. 
Quite a case (refugee from Windows and don't think I'll go back).  I do not 
know whether Leo will suit my needs but nothing else does and I’d like to 
give it a shake, though it seems the learning curve will be steep for me.


So my first challenge is getting it installed in High Sierra.  I see what 
is for me a complex and somewhat cryptic guide for installing on MacOs 10.7 
(I know nothing of Homebrew, for example). Is this the most current 
information on a Mac installation?  Will that guide get me through it?


Perhaps someone here just needs to gently steer me away from Leo as 
unsuitable for my needs or my noobie-ism.  Or perhaps someone will say 
‘You’ve come to the right place and here’s how to get started!’


Happy New Year!


Andy

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