Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 11/10/2007, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/10/2007, Leonid Podolny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- ... Any suggestions or recommendations? Back when I worked at a new startup, we brought in a company from the Tzahala area to setup our CVS/Eclipse/Java dev env. I'm pretty sure they had support for SubVersion too (though back then SVN was still a new kid, I'm talking around 2004). I'll try to dig their name and get back to you. The company was Tikal from Ramat Hachayal: http://www.tikalk.com/index.php?option=com_contactItemid=3 Cheers, --Amos
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 11/10/2007, Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Amos, There is no built-in development framework in SVN like there is in ClearCase UCM. With SVN you can role your own development framework using the hooks, but that's very different from having one ready-made for you. IMHO the decision point is the size of the organization. With less that 30 developers in not more than two locations you can afford to make your own procedures and get by. At Tivoli in Austin (shortly before the sale to IBM), when we got to 50 developers the cracks started to show. I see where you are getting at but do not share the stage where you say that ClearCase is the clear winner. Kfir has already mentioned Trac and there are probably many other projects built on top of SVN to bridge the gap between plain revision control and a higher-level project management. Also companies like Tikal that I mention in another message try to provide the missing links on top of CVS/SVN, or at least seem to be in the market for providing such solutions. Also - it sounds a bit like you view CVS as representative of SVN, which is not. CVS is horrible and basically some sort of a hack to share RCS files over the net, SVN has a very clean design and tries (successfully, IMHO) to address many of the shortcomings of CVS without making CVS users loose the advantage of their familiarity with CVS. Finally, I heard from people who worked at CheckPoint (Shachar? not sure, I knew a few) and other places who worked or tried to work with ClearCase (NOT open-source bigots and at a time when the open source alternatives pretty much were CVS or RCS) about their ordeal with ClearCase and they all summed it up as a horrible tool which wastes tons of the user's time, even when ClearCase Master was assigned to maintain it full time. Then again, I do not have personal experience with ClearCase or very large development teams so maybe my opinion isn't worthy. --Amos
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 10/11/07, Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no built-in development framework in SVN like there is in ClearCase UCM. Agreed, but you've also mentioned that developers rarely take the time to understand ClearCase. In the army, we also tried to implement UCM (the 'multiple development streams + delivering to integration stream' deal) and it was regarded as overhead without benefits. Then again, ours was a team of 5 developers. For example, we pretty much gave up on orderly use of UCM activities and delivering activities separately, since we soon found out UCM activities easily become inter-dependent and thus not really separable. (Yes, I understand why they become interdependent -- it makes sense, but it doesn't mean the UCM model works.) Jonathan, did you see it work better in a larger setup? P.S. I'm still standing behind my claim about horrible performance (and we had decent hardware in the army rollout).
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Hi! On Thursday 11 October 2007, Amos Shapira wrote: On 10/10/2007, Leonid Podolny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- .. Any suggestions or recommendations? Back when I worked at a new startup, we brought in a company from the Tzahala area to setup our CVS/Eclipse/Java dev env. I'm pretty sure they had support for SubVersion too (though back then SVN was still a new kid, Just a note - it's not SubVersion - it's Subversion (without the capital V.). Regards, Shlomi Fish I'm talking around 2004). I'll try to dig their name and get back to you. --Amos -- - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Hi Ilya,
The performance that I saw was quite reasonable. True, doing commits in
ClearCase is not as fast as in SVN or CVS, but not a whole lot slower.
ClearCase certainly is overhead without benefit for five engineers. But
for 80 engineers at three geographic locations and multiple product
levels, i.e. shared library level, application level, product level, and
multiple releases with differing toolsets that needed to be saved in
addition to the application code, ClearCase had distinct advantages. You
do need a guru on hand though. Don't try to teach the engineers how it
works or expect them to understand it. Just tell them what to do.
- yba
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Ilya Konstantinov wrote:
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:19:12 +0200
From: Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED], linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 10/11/07, Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no built-in development framework in SVN like there is in
ClearCase UCM.
Agreed, but you've also mentioned that developers rarely take the time to
understand ClearCase. In the army, we also tried to implement UCM (the
'multiple development streams + delivering to integration stream' deal) and
it was regarded as overhead without benefits. Then again, ours was a team of
5 developers.
For example, we pretty much gave up on orderly use of UCM activities and
delivering activities separately, since we soon found out UCM activities
easily become inter-dependent and thus not really separable. (Yes, I
understand why they become interdependent -- it makes sense, but it doesn't
mean the UCM model works.)
Jonathan, did you see it work better in a larger setup?
P.S. I'm still standing behind my claim about horrible performance (and we
had decent hardware in the army rollout).
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Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Amos Shapira wrote: Finally, I heard from people who worked at CheckPoint (Shachar? not sure, I knew a few) I joined CheckPoint when they had just started talking about migrating to ClearCase (from CVS). I left CheckPoint (two years and three months later) at about the point where ClearCase started reaching our group (the one that worked on the actual firewall code). We were, more or less, the last group to get clear case. The transition was horrible, with lots and lots of complaints, but truth be told, for all I know that may have been resolved one day after I left. I have had only a couple of months of work with clear case experience, and that has been mixed at best. In CheckPoint, clearcase showed severe reliability issues when the repositories were residing on a NetApp (I'm talking about early 2003. Again, for all I know, these problems may have been since solved). Also, dynamic views used up much more space than they should have. Even though CP worked with ClearQuest, the moment the connectivity between CC and CQ was turned on, things ground to a halt, quite literally. Over a one year transition, that specific feature was never turned on. CVS, which served us before that, had its own problems. Chief among those was the fact that in order to tag a whole tree, you need to lock all the folders in that tree. Each time support wanted to create a branch so they could issue a hot fix for a client, no one could commit for several hours. Clear case does not suffer from that problem, but neither does SVN. CVS also had severe performance problems, but at least initially, these got worse, not better, with the transition to CC. This was the case despite the fact that the sources were moved into clear case without history, so the clear case repository was totally clean. On the CVS front of the slowness, I suspect it had something to do with the fact that trunk was not updated after a certain point in time. All work was done in branches. I believe (though I have no proof) that it was a major slowdown. I have a company running with much over 30 people, using SVN and traq, and being extremely happy with it. Not a basis for comparison, but a point to consider. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] SVN commercial support
Hi, My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- light, simple, yet powerful. (And infinitely cheaper, of course.) The basic reasoning behind choosing ClearCase is simple -- the management needs someone to provide us with support and help us in case of technical difficulties. So basically I am looking for some company that will be able to provide us with the technical support for SVN. I think that another reason behind ClearCase is that they have actual sales people. So it would be nice if that company would be able to send someone with nice PowerPoint presentations, that will be able to explain to VPRD how vastly superior SVN is, compared to any other offering. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On Wednesday 10 October 2007, Leonid Podolny wrote: Hi, My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- light, simple, yet powerful. (And infinitely cheaper, of course.) The basic reasoning behind choosing ClearCase is simple -- the management needs someone to provide us with support and help us in case of technical difficulties. So basically I am looking for some company that will be able to provide us with the technical support for SVN. Well, we used to have a page with Subversion consultants on the IGLU wiki, but it is now offline along with all the other Eskimo services[1]. Here is what it contained from my memory: 1. http://www.pti.co.il/ (Gabor Szabo, etc.) 2. http://lingnu.com/. 3. Shlomi Fish (me) - http://www.shlomifish.org/ Maybe there are others, but they should speak now. I think that another reason behind ClearCase is that they have actual sales people. So it would be nice if that company would be able to send someone with nice PowerPoint presentations, that will be able to explain to VPRD how vastly superior SVN is, compared to any other offering. Well, I can prepare and deliver a presentation, but I tend to be an awful speaker. While I have never used it in the past, I've heard some very bad things about ClearCase, and Subversion is much better in this regard (although CC has its advantages). Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks, Regards, Shlomi Fish [1] - hint, hint, Shachar Shemesh. - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer. -- An Israeli Linuxer = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 10/10/07, Leonid Podolny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- light, simple, yet powerful. (And infinitely cheaper, of course.) I agree. I haven't worked with next-gen SCMs (git etc.) but Subversion, for what it does, is fine. The basic reasoning behind choosing ClearCase is simple -- the management needs someone to provide us with support and help us in case of technical difficulties. You might be disappointed by IBM Israel quality of support for ClearCase. In the army (obviously being a large customer with a good support contract) we weren't satisfied. IBM might be a large firm with impressive sales, but as far as ClearCase support goes, they didn't deliver. ..how vastly superior SVN is, compared to any other offering. Technically, this is not true. ClearCase is more sophisticated. In addition to barebones SCM, it offers a development workflow (called UCM) integrating with their issue-tracking (ClearQuest), dynamic views, IDE integration and some more features -- but this comes at a price of very bad performance. So still, all in all I recommend against ClearCase, no matter what other SCM you chose. As to your main question (SVN support), sorry but I have no pointers. Good luck.
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Technically, this is not true. ClearCase is more sophisticated. In addition to barebones SCM, it offers a development workflow (called UCM) integrating with their issue-tracking (ClearQuest), dynamic views, IDE integration and some more features -- but this comes at a price of very bad performance. So still, all in all I recommend against ClearCase, no matter what other SCM you chose. As to your main question (SVN support), sorry but I have no pointers. Good luck. I have used trac as a wiki, bug tracking, web code view, with svn integration. Very good.
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 10/10/2007, Leonid Podolny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing -- .. Any suggestions or recommendations? Back when I worked at a new startup, we brought in a company from the Tzahala area to setup our CVS/Eclipse/Java dev env. I'm pretty sure they had support for SubVersion too (though back then SVN was still a new kid, I'm talking around 2004). I'll try to dig their name and get back to you. --Amos
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Hi Leonid,
I did a project at a large well-known startup in Tel Aviv recently using
ClearCase/Quest, Ant and CruiseControl to set up automated builds for one
of the client's products. They had also been using SVN. This is what I
learned about ClearCase and SVN:
ClearCase has a very long learning curve for administrators. Developers
usually learn a few set procedures for using what the administrators set
up for them but the developers themselves rarely really understand what
ClearCase does.
We had no performance problems with ClearCase.
IBM appears to have no technical support for ClearCase, despite whatever
they might say.
From my experience working with CVS at Tivoli and ClearCase recently I
can tell you that CVS and SVN are fine solutions for up to about 30
developers working in one location. Once you go above that number there
begin to be project management issues such as the need to lock down
branches, define releases and other build types, and impose development
discipline. This is where SVN and CVS fail miserably and ClearCase
suddenly becomes advantageous. This is also the point (30+ developers)
where the group can usually afford to have one dedicated person who is the
ClearCase/Quest administrator. ClearCase has a very rich and usefull
feature set. It is scriptable. It is heavy. The UCM additon is very good.
If you do not have at least 30 developers then the admin overhead that
ClearCase requires will be very expensive for you in relation to the
advantages that it offers.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Leonid Podolny wrote:
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:22:38 +0200
From: Leonid Podolny [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: [OT] SVN commercial support
Hi,
My employer considers switching CM (i.e. source control) system. The
current favorite in the race is ClearCase. Previously, at my previous
place of work, we worked with Subversion, and it was simply amazing --
light, simple, yet powerful. (And infinitely cheaper, of course.)
The basic reasoning behind choosing ClearCase is simple -- the
management needs someone to provide us with support and help us in
case of technical difficulties. So basically I am looking for some
company that will be able to provide us with the technical support for
SVN.
I think that another reason behind ClearCase is that they have actual
sales people. So it would be nice if that company would be able to
send someone with nice PowerPoint presentations, that will be able to
explain to VPRD how vastly superior SVN is, compared to any other
offering.
Any suggestions or recommendations?
Thanks,
=
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Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 11/10/2007, Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: developers working in one location. Once you go above that number there begin to be project management issues such as the need to lock down branches, define releases and other build types, and impose development discipline. This is where SVN and CVS fail miserably and ClearCase impose development discipline is something I'm always in favour off, especially after working for a company which did it pretty much perfectly, but I'm not sure why you take this as a point against SVN. What about Repository Hooks ( http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.4/svn-book.html#svn.reposadmin.create.hooks )? Not that I speak from personal experience, so I'm open to learn new points about any tools. Cheers, --Amos (Who's now in the middle of an ongoing crusade to teach my organization proper use of SVN/Bugzilla and other tools).
Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Hi Amos,
There is no built-in development framework in SVN like there is in
ClearCase UCM. With SVN you can role your own development framework using
the hooks, but that's very different from having one ready-made for you.
IMHO the decision point is the size of the organization. With less that 30
developers in not more than two locations you can afford to make your own
procedures and get by. At Tivoli in Austin (shortly before the sale to
IBM), when we got to 50 developers the cracks started to show.
- yba
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Amos Shapira wrote:
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:24:12 +
From: Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
On 11/10/2007, Jonathan Ben Avraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
developers working in one location. Once you go above that number there
begin to be project management issues such as the need to lock down
branches, define releases and other build types, and impose development
discipline. This is where SVN and CVS fail miserably and ClearCase
impose development discipline is something I'm always in favour off,
especially after working for a company which did it pretty much perfectly,
but I'm not sure why you take this as a point against SVN.
What about Repository Hooks (
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.4/svn-book.html#svn.reposadmin.create.hooks
)?
Not that I speak from personal experience, so I'm open to learn new points
about any tools.
Cheers,
--Amos
(Who's now in the middle of an ongoing crusade to teach my organization
proper use of SVN/Bugzilla and other tools).
--
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Re: [OT] SVN commercial support
Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote: If you do not have at least 30 developers then the admin overhead that ClearCase requires will be very expensive for you in relation to the advantages that it offers. Regards, We have 5 times this amount. So, from reading at this list I begin to think that I'm wrong about SVN... -- Leonid Podolny | /\ | \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign leonidp(at)gmail.com |x Against HTML Mail +972-52-4781423 | / \ PGP fingerprint: 51B2 F1DB 485E 2C48 2E17 94D1 7EC4 E524 B156 B9F0 PGP key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xB156B9F0 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
