[LUTE] Re: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute
"By the way, I really like the film. Films like this one will probably soon be forbidden by PC idiots..." I know what you mean. I prefer Macs as well. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2020 12:25 PM To: heiman.dan...@juno.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; lutel...@groundsanddivisions.info Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute By the way, I really like the film. Films like this one will probably soon be forbidden by PC idiots... Rainer Am 27.09.2020 um 13:50 schrieb heiman.dan...@juno.com: > Rainer, Nigel North did a set of intabulations of Henry Purcell pieces at the beginning of his concert on 11-course d-minor lute.https://bit.ly/NorthConcert Daniel > > -- Original Message -- > From: Rainer > To: Lute net , lutelist > Subject: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:34:51 +0200 > > Dear lute netters, > > I wonder if anybody has intabulated this for two Renaissance lutes (or one). > > [1]https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE > > Rainer > To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, beginning our eighth full year of the (once weekly, now frequent) series. We preview a few new tracks from Mignarda and our alter-ego, we honor Wayne Cripps for hosting the lute list and discuss the way forward. [1]https://tinyurl.com/y53x796a Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://tinyurl.com/y53x796a To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Numbers in a battle (Eysert), part 2
Sarge, I think you'll find that the term _secunda pars_ universally applies to the second section of a composition that was conceived in more than one section, typically setting the continuation of a long poem or another sectional text. For instance, in Phalese _Luculentum Theatrum Musicum_, 1568, you'll find on f.58v the Secunda pars and Tertia pars of a solo lute setting of Josquin's motet, Benedicta es. The rubrics indicate that the motet was composed in three sequential sections. On the following page, f. 59, you will find lute duets with the heading,_Sequntur deinceps carmina, duabus testudinibus accomoda_ ([music] following the sacred songs is accommodated for two lutes). The two different lute parts are not labeled other than the fact that the primary part carries an indication that this particular duet is _ad secundum_, or for lutes tuned a step apart, and of course the duet part is printed upside down so both can play from the same book. There seems to have been no standard convention in labeling the separate parts of a lute duet but the most typical indication for different parts was to label them superius, bassus, or tenor, such as found in Pacoloni, 1564. Nevertheless, _secunda pars_ is not likely an indication for a separate instrumental part. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 3:45 PM To: Jussi-Pekka Lajunen ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Numbers in a battle (Eysert), part 2 Oh! I didn't find that score. Thanks so much! One approach would be to intabulate the missing parts from the score, as a second lute part (maybe using red notes) or just to fill them in so a single lute could play the complete piece. Since the first part does not have gaps or red notes, it, too might have to be edited (red notes or whatever) to fit the score. All that is a bit of an undertaking. Meanwhile, I am soldiering on through the MS. --Sarge On 9/9/2020 15:31, Jussi-Pekka Lajunen wrote: > No, I haven't seen, but the numbers correspond to the duration of > rests in the first choir's part (and the nine semibreve long section > not included in the tablature). If you look at the score[1], you can > see there are rests that last for two semibreves on page 25, for five > semibreves on page 27, for 11 semibreves on pages 30â32, for three > semibreves on page 36, for six semibreves on pages 38â39 and for 13 > semibreves on pages 40â42. Then there is a nine semibreve long section > on pages 33â34 that is missing from the tablature. > > There is no second lute part on the spreads in question (neither in > red notes nor reversed), which is the reason why I thought that the > possible second lute part might not be in the same manuscript. > > [1] > [1]http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/files/imglnks/usimg/4/41/IMSLP145 459-WIMA.26bd-battu.pdf > > Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. kirjoitti 10.9.2020 klo 0.08: >> Well, as we have discussed, the red notes are apparently played from >> the same score on a second lute, and elsewhere in Eysert, there are >> apparently both parts of some duets, some reversed to play off >> the same >> MS (haven't run across them yet). That suggests that there may >> not be a >> second part book, which doesn't mean a second part isn't lurking in >> some other random MS. >> I we ignore the # º notations entirely, Part 2 sounds quite all >> right to >> my ears as is, so the notations might mean something entirely >> different... >> Andre Nieuwlaat is going to hunt around and see if he can find a >> second >> part. Perhaps it would have similar notations to indicate missing >> bars, >> meant to be played from the version in Eysert. >> Have you seen notations like this anywhere else in the lute >> literature? I haven't. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/files/imglnks/usimg/4/41/IMSLP145459-WIMA.26bd-battu.pdf 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 6.
[LUTE] Re: Rethorique des Dieux, English translation of preface?
Dear David: Have you seen David J. Buch's dissertation, "Rhétorique des Dieux: A Critical Study of Text, Illustration, and Musical Style," Northwestern University, 1983? I have it somewhere if you are unable to locate a copy. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2020 5:25 AM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Rethorique des Dieux, English translation of preface? Dear collected mind. Could someone direct me to such, if available? David -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com *** -- References 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 6. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 7. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L2732262-1140TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: My web site
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist with this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that there abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who will never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform is the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff of commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than they should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now a brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to not participate in your scheme. RA From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of LSA Editor Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM To: LSA President ; lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site Hi Cathy, I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus FB. Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you a better answer. Here are my sanswers: The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we have access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute player, but the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is not the place for promoting you CD or next concert. FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think Larry spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I hear it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians use it instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings are very short. I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not right now. We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but nothing recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address for future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions to my lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to take the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, dick and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. David Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale after about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is posting new instruments for sale. We would also need to make sure people know where to find both the LL and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going to his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS site. Nancy I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should not piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should probably not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or on Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and be a benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from the tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. The same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very least we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has completed the transaction. I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be good for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but maybe this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. These two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter here in Boston, but the pandemic
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have finally completed our seventh year of Saturday morning quotes, which has actually taken more than two years for the entire cycle. Today's quote offers a short profile of an important member of our community, with access to some new videos. [1]https://mignarda.wordpress.com/2020/08/22/saturday-morning-quotes-7- 52-artist-at-work/ Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://mignarda.wordpress.com/2020/08/22/saturday-morning-quotes-7-52-artist-at-work/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today, honoring Julian Bream. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4C9 Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4C9 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L2585562-9361TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week on performance of 15th-century chansons for solo voice and lute. We have also posted an all-new Concert Set of some of our favorite 15th-century pieces that were intabulated by Spinacino and published in 1507, performed here as lute songs using a six-course bass lute by Sandi Harris & Stephen Barber. We include interesting background information on the pieces, which can be accessed via the blog post. We are making our Concert Sets available to all, but please consider using the Donate button. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4Au Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4Au 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L1856276-2055TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4Ae Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4Ae To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spanish harp in this whole mix
Calleno, or Calen O custure me, found in tablature from the Ballet lute ms. is thought to be an Irish tune. Several of us have foisted loads of arrangements of later Irish tunes upon unsuspecting listeners, and Ronn McFarlane has a very nice recording of his own arrangements played on baroque lute. __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:36 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spanish harp in this whole mix Now that you mention Mersenne... [1]https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k63326258/f320.highres But seriously, the question of how the instruments were built is important, but I'm really interested in the music, or more specifically, pieces that are derived from harp playing. I know that new tunings in England are called "harp-way" or something, but what about earlier times? And does anyone know genuine Irish music for Lute? On 21.07.20 21:04, David Brown wrote: > Hello Martyn and luters... > > > As my mail client and VPN seem to insist on arguing, I'll take my > chances of getting this outââ¬Â¦. > > > Since Mudarra and Spanish harp was brought up and I was re-reading > Peter Holman's 1987 article in Early Music, Holman mentions the > possibility that the painting "The Cabalââ¬Â, at Nostell Priory , by J. B. > Medina that "could beââ¬Â Charles Evans with his Italian harp. I am > certain the Spanish harp had its influences on the Italian triple harp, > but this harp appears to be a Spanish double. J. B. Medina was born in > Bruxelles to a Spanish army captain trained with a Flemish Protrait > painter. This might explain something about the representation of a > Spanish harp? What does this have to say about the Cabal? > > > This is a small example of research which the word "appearsââ¬Â is used. > Appearance is in the eye of the beholder, and in this case it "appearsââ¬Â > to be a Spanish harp to me. I should be able to produce an example of > an extant Spanish double??? I think it is cross strungââ¬Â¦., but laterââ¬Â¦ > Bartolomo Jovenardi needs to be put into the mix about now to make > things grey.. > > > Mersenne illustrates a triple harp that looks a bit more Spanish and > relays the story of the triple being invented in Naples, it appears > with the influence of the staved Spanish harp. This, could have been > his interpretation of a triple harp and possibly influenced by the > origin story. > > > Please don't take me wrong, Holman is asking and speculating important > questions that need (needed in 1987) to be asked. Where would we be if > we didn't ask questions and speculate only to have them changed with > more information later? It certainly doesn't change the majority of > evidence that the wire strung harp was probably used in the Lawes > consortsââ¬Â¦ The Italian harp in England early on, remains a grey area > with hopefully more insight to come. > > > Anyway, this seems to be going way out of the lute realm and into the > harp area and maybe should be taken off list?ââ¬Â¦. The start was that > painting of the weird instrumentââ¬Â¦. > > > Pardon > > > Sincerely > > > David > > > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k63326258/f320.highres 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LeRoy guiterre tabs
As usual, I have a different understanding of the use of the single dot in plucked-string tablatures. The rudimentary interpretation is that the index finger plucks every note with a single dot. The deeper interpretation considers the single dot in a running passage as a visual cue to keep track of stong-weak rhythmic articulations, and typically but not necessarily always to be plucked with the index finger. Yes, sometimes the dots are misplaced in old prints, so don't always trust them. Particularly in French tablatures, the single dot under a chordal event indicates a brush or strum, also found in Italian tablatures as early as Spinacino and Capirola. The brush is usually best accomplished with the index finger but with individual notes not acutely separated, and certainly not strongly articulated. I usually hear a serious deficit in delicacy with people who grossly misinterpret the chordal dot, thinking it indicates a power chord. Not. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Leonard Williams Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 2:42 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] LeRoy guiterre tabs A question about LeRoys tabs for guiterre, recently brought to our attention by Rainer: How "accurate" are the tabs? I notice a lot of odd placement of right-hand fingering dots (for index, presumably); are these in error? Some are under chords, some on first and third beats, or on successive notes. I'm thinking of introducing a novice uke player to these, and I'd rather not offer something full of confusing misprints. Thanks and stay well! Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3103274-1824TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Indo-Italian connection
I have been musing over the interesting mashups Tristan has been kind enough to share with us all in the past. We have not seen one for a while, but I was intrigued by the fortuitous lining up of superimposed ragas and western harmonic grounds. At first I thought it was mere coincidence, but then I came across this compelling evidence linking Indian and Italian renaissance culture. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U RA -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for the 4th of July, 2020. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4yy Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4yy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro
Although it is difficult to find tease out the melodic line, the Je ne fay duet in Spinacino is indeed based upon the chanson, which has been securely attributed to Giles Mureau by Peter Woetmann Christophersen, who has edited the complete works of Mureau. The Spinacino duets can be problematic if one approaches tablature as a sacred relic rather than a general outline that needs a bit of polish. Again, I say that it is an interpretive error to consider (especially early) lute tablatures to be anything other than a reservoir of information. It is up to the informed musician to turn it into music, and it always has been thus. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 10:18 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro Thanks, Denys. Very helpful and thoughtful comments. There are a handful of instances I have encountered in v.1 of Spinacino where corrections were written in, possibly by Petrucci himself. In any case, these appear to be "correct" corrections. To me, it is odd that there are relatively few errors in the solo works and what appear to be so many in the duet pieces. Your suggestion about intabulating the vocal models is a good one. The vocal models are probably from Odhecaton (also a Petrucci publication), so that should not be so hard. BTW, does anyone know whether the "Je ne fay" in Spinacino is the same as "Je ne fay plus" in Odhecaton? And is the composer Antoine Busnois, Giles Mureau, or Anonymous? The altus part in Odhecaton is labeled "si placet", which I think means it is optional, rather than signifying a composer name. --Sarge On 6/20/2020 13:41, denyssteph...@sky.com wrote: > Hi Frank, > I haven't tried reconstructing the Spinacino duets, but I have reconstructed intabulations from the Thibault manuscript and studied the Dalza print in detail. The first thing to remember about both Spinacino and Dalza is the presence of a considerable number of printing errors. Both Martin Shepherd and I have written about that in the past, looking at the issue of which discordant sounds are intentional and which are typographic mistakes. There isn't an easy answer, but it's an issue that needs to be considered when creating an edition of music from those prints. If you look carefully you can spot manuscript corrections to some of the errors in both the Spinacino and Dalza prints. Martin and I compared all three surviving copies of the Dalza print which showed that the corrections were made in Petrucci's workshop and not by a subsequent owner. For those interested, there are lists of the early corrections in Stanley Boorman's superb Catalogue Raisonne of Petrucci's work. ! The curious thing in Dalza is that many glaringly obvious typographic errors were not corrected, which suggests that the same may be true in the Spinacino print. When working on an intabulation of a vocal composition it always makes sense to study the original if it's available, and ideally make your own lute intabulation from it. The points of coincidence and diversion from the original in an early intabulation can then be seen. We don't of course know if we are looking at the same reading of the original vocal piece that the early intabulator had (in this case Spinacino), but it does help a lot in getting a feel for how close the intabulation is to the original. When you do this It sometimes becomes easier to spot where mistakes were made in the intabulation. I appreciate it's a lot of work to go through this process, but it does give a much clearer idea of what the intabulator was doing. It's also helpful to find, if available, examples of what other modern musicians hav! e done with the same pieces. I have the feeling that all or mo! st of the Spinacino duets are included on Karl-Ernst Shroder & Crawford Young's wonderful album 'Amours amours amours.' I don't remember hearing any extreme dissonances on that album. I imagine that they would have made their own performing editions from the print in preparation for the recording. > Hope this helps. > Best wishes, > Denys > > > > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. > Sent: 20 June 2020 20:29 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro > > I am working on an edition of Spinacino v.1 (1507) and have run across > these 2 extremely dissonant duets. > I am not personally a big fan of gratuitous dissonance (diabolus in > musica). Dissonance that serves a purpose, as in Dowland, yes. > Dissonance
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week on Dowland and Essex. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4xS Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4xS 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L2091533-3233TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena lute book
Or you could just ask Arthur Ness, the person who wrote the introduction to the Minkoff facsimile. __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Leonard Williams Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:29 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena lute book Thanks, everyone, for your speedy responses! I'm not sure why the information wasn't more available on the internet, but I guess that's why we still need hard copy. Thanks again, Leonard -Original Message- From: Leonard Williams To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, Jun 6, 2020 8:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Siena lute book I'm looking for an index or catalog of the contents of the Siena Lute Book, but can't seem to find anything. I would like to correlate the pieces on Heringman's album with tablatures, but he doesn't list folios in his playlist. Also--what is the significance of the Minkoff numbering system (which Jacob does indicate)? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino/Capirola
It's good to know you're paying attention. Since Spinacino's books (1507) and Capirola's manuscript (circa 1511) are essentially from the same time frame, and really represents late 15th century repertory and practice, we don't know for certain who was copying whom. But (if you read my last blog post on Bembo) at the time, the idea of imitation was an indication of acknowledgement and respect, and not to be considered the sort of plagiarism that is the basis for songwriting lawsuits so common today. As Martin Shepard points out in the Lute News, Capirola also includes a quotation from the famous Benedictus by Isaac in the same recercar. By the way, the particular section you mentioned should really be considered to be in triple time. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2020 7:10 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Spinacino/Capirola *rubs his chin* Hmmm. so why exactly are m. 43ff in Capirola f.6v literally m. 17ff in Spinacino No 37? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c. Lute music
Tristan, it is a common misconception that early sixteenth-century music should only be played on a six-course lute. Just like the misconception that lutenists only played with a plectrum until 1507, misguided modern historians mistakenly believe that seven-course lutes did not enter the picture until Dowland's lifetime. Fortunately, there is descriptive evidence to the contrary penned by Philippo Oriolo da Bassano from his poem Monte Parnaso, dated no later than 1541. Canto XX fancifully describes a handful of known lutenists ranging from Pietrobono, to Gian Maria, Marco dall' Aquila, Spinacino and Francesco da Milano. "There ensues a curious contest between two lutenists, one playing an instrument of thirteen strings, the other, one of seventeen strings These numbers are almost certainly to be understood as referring to seven courses (the lower six strings doubled) and eight courses (the lower seven strings doubled), respectively...As early as 1511, Sebastian Virdung, Musica getutscht...states that nine strings are too few, and since not all lutes have thirteen or fourteen strings, eleven are best." - H. Colin Slim, "Musicians on Parnassus", _Studies in the Renaissance_, Vol. 12 (1965) p. 140. __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 1:11 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] 7c. Lute music While playing to Sarge's new Gerle series (thanks!) [1]http://gerbode.net/sources/GerleH/Musica_Teutsch_1532/pdf/ I saw this sentence: "Nun volgen etliche stucklein hernach in der Tabulatur zu den dreyzehen saytten." (Now following: several pieces in tabs for 13 strings) So this music is genuine 7 course music published already in 1532. (The scordatura pieces are called "im Abzug") Btw, the Josquin intabulations are sweet and easy on the hand. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [3]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/GerleH/Musica_Teutsch_1532/pdf/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 5. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 6. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L205967-8368TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week featuring a figure who was influential in the form of the recercar. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4xx Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4xx To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week touching upon Dowland's song texts. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4wH Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4wH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: La rocha il fuso
The music is dissimilar but they are both spinning songs, which was a genre dating back to at least the 12th century. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:49 PM To: Ron Andrico ; lute net Subject: [LUTE] Re: La rocha il fuso Thanks, Ron and Robert. Also, I didn't make the connection to "Je File". Is that a similar piece? --Sarge On 5/17/2020 13:34, Ron Andrico wrote: > Another once-popular piece on the same theme was Philip van Wilder's Je > file quand Dieu me donne de quoy. This perky five-part chanson was > intabulated and copied into one of Holmes manuscripts, as well as the > Wickhambrook manuscript. > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > on behalf of Robert Barto > > Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:55 PM > To: lute net > Subject: [LUTE] La rocha il fuso > >HI Sarge, >La conocchia o rocca è uno strumento che in coppia col [1]fuso serve > a >[2]filare. >I'm not really up on "spinning " terminology but apparently the fuso > is >the spindle and the rocca is the distaff? >There are some wonderful early renaissance paintings of ladies > spinning >even at court. >Robert >Am 17.05.2020 um 21:02 schrieb Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.: > Anybody know what "la rocha il fuso" *means*? Just curious. > --Sarge > --Sarge > -- > Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([3]sa...@gerbode.net) > 11132 Dell Ave > Forestville, CA 95436-9491 > Home phone: � 707-820-1759 > Website: � [4]http://www.gerbode.net > "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >-- > References >1. [1]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento) >2. [2]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura >3. [3]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net >4. [4]http://www.gerbode.net/ >5. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > References > > 1. [1]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento > 2. [2]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura > 3. [3]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net > 4. [4]http://www.gerbode.net/ > 5. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [6]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." Virus-free. [7]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 3. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 4. http://www.gerbode.net/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.gerbode.net/ 7. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 9. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 10. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3819850-3201TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: La rocha il fuso
My memory banks are overfull. I was misremembering Philip's "Si vous voules" that is in Wickhambrook. The main source of "Je file" is BL Add. 4900 and, yes, the keyboard setting in Willoughby ms. is interesting. I have performed this chanson with our vocal ensemble to good effect. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Andre Nieuwlaat Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:25 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: La rocha il fuso Ron, can you tell me on what folio in Wickhambrook the setting of Je file can be found? And what Holmes lte book are you referring to? The only lute settings that I know of are Brogyntyn p. 14, BL Add. 4900 fol. 62r, Osborne commonplace book (aka Braye) fol. 17v-18r, Paris Rés. 429 fol. 110v, and BSB Mus.ms. 1627 No. 6 (which is a highly embellished version). There is also a keyboard setting in the Willoughby lute book, fol. 91v-92v, as well as an instrumental version in BL 31390. André Op zo 17 mei 2020 om 22:35 schreef Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>: Another once-popular piece on the same theme was Philip van Wilder's Je file quand Dieu me donne de quoy. This perky five-part chanson was intabulated and copied into one of Holmes manuscripts, as well as the Wickhambrook manuscript. RA __ From: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Robert Barto <[4]r.ba...@gmx.de> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:55 PM To: lute net <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] La rocha il fuso HI Sarge, La conocchia o rocca è uno strumento che in coppia col [1]fuso serve a [2]filare. I'm not really up on "spinning " terminology but apparently the fuso is the spindle and the rocca is the distaff? There are some wonderful early renaissance paintings of ladies spinning even at court. Robert Am 17.05.2020 um 21:02 schrieb Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.: Anybody know what "la rocha il fuso" *means*? Just curious. --Sarge --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([3][6]sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: � 707-820-1759 Website: � [4][7]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." To get on or off this list see list information at [5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1][9]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento) 2. [2][10]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 3. [3]mailto:[11]sa...@gerbode.net 4. [4][12]http://www.gerbode.net/ 5. [5][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. [14]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento 2. [15]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 3. mailto:[16]sa...@gerbode.net 4. [17]http://www.gerbode.net/ 5. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. [2]mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [3]mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [4]mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de 5. [5]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [6]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 7. [7]http://www.gerbode.net/ 8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [9]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento) 10. [10]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 11. [11]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 12. [12]http://www.gerbode.net/ 13. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. [14]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento 15. [15]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 16. [16]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 17. [17]http://www.gerbode.net/ 18. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [19]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.e
[LUTE] Re: La rocha il fuso
Another once-popular piece on the same theme was Philip van Wilder's Je file quand Dieu me donne de quoy. This perky five-part chanson was intabulated and copied into one of Holmes manuscripts, as well as the Wickhambrook manuscript. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Robert Barto Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:55 PM To: lute net Subject: [LUTE] La rocha il fuso HI Sarge, La conocchia o rocca è uno strumento che in coppia col [1]fuso serve a [2]filare. I'm not really up on "spinning " terminology but apparently the fuso is the spindle and the rocca is the distaff? There are some wonderful early renaissance paintings of ladies spinning even at court. Robert Am 17.05.2020 um 21:02 schrieb Frank A. Gerbode, M.D.: Anybody know what "la rocha il fuso" *means*? Just curious. --Sarge --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([3]sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: � 707-820-1759 Website: � [4]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento) 2. [2]https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 3. [3]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 4. [4]http://www.gerbode.net/ 5. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuso_(strumento 2. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filatura 3. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 4. http://www.gerbode.net/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vp Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vp 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3742958-9965TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes Special announcement
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes announcing availability of a new edition of John Dowland: Complete Ayres for Voice & Lute. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vH Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes
Dear Martyn: Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. As to your suggestion, yes, we have considered publishing a selection from what has become a rather large body of work. We assembled the full contents of what is now nearly ten years' worth of Unquiet Thoughts and it comes to nearly 4,000 pages, which we have already begun editing down to feature the most interesting and useful material. But this rather large project must wait until we have put the finishing touches on another rather large project, which we will be announcing at the end of this week. Best, Ron & Donna __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Martyn Hodgson Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 6:58 AM To: Lutelist Net ; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes Dear Donna and Ron, I often find your Sat quotes interesting but don't always make time to read every single one! I wonder if you've considered of making them all available in some sort of omnibus edition so that they can be readily accessed at a later, more convenient, date. Just a thought... regards Martyn On Saturday, 2 May 2020, 17:31:22 BST, Ron Andrico wrote: We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today. [1][1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc Ron & Donna -- References 1. [2]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc 2. [2]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc 3. [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc 2. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4vc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Yes. First and foremost, tablature was created to serve as a short score of polyphonic music and printed or manuscript tablatures of polyphonic music were meant to serve as a reservoir of information. While the ideal is to play every note, I firmly believe that lutenists always made adjustments, as you have described, for practical purposes. The idea of 16th-century lute tablatures being compared to a form such as the preludes by Villa-Lobos, in terms of notes that must be conquered through disciplined technique, is an absurdity imposed upon historical music by 20th century guitarists who took up the lute. The point of 16th-century tablatures was to gain an understanding of the musical intent in the score and the greatest technical challenge is to realize the polyphony to the best of one's ability. I have read V. Galilei's Fronimo forward and backwards, and his remarks about not making concessions in intabulating polyphony for the sake of fingering are an admonition to avoid altering the content of the piece to reduce fingering difficulties because a tablature score is meant to represent the music. Overcome the difficulties or not, but don't change the polyphony. Molinaro was an organist and his tablatures show what is possible but are certainly influenced by his conscious or unconscious reference to keyboard practice. Terzi was a freak if he could play all those notes in his intabulations while observing the tactus. Not bloody likely. He's probably laughing at us from another world. If there is one thing I have absorbed over thirty years of lute-playing and creating countless intabulations of sixteenth century polyphony, the score is a reservoir of information. It was always meant to be so. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:15 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de Cc: LuteList ; lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite
[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations
Yes. First and foremost, tablature was created to serve as a short score of polyphonic music and printed or manuscript tablatures of polyphonic music were meant to serve as a reservoir of information. While the ideal is to play every note, I firmly believe that lutenists always made adjustments, as you have described, for practical purposes. The idea of 16th-century lute tablatures being compared to a form such as the preludes by Villa-Lobos, in terms of notes that must be conquered through disciplined technique, is an absurdity imposed upon historical music by 20th century guitarists who took up the lute. The point of 16th-century tablatures was to gain an understanding of the musical intent in the score and the greatest technical challenge is to realize the polyphony to the best of one's ability. I have read V. Galilei's Fronimo forward and backwards, and his remarks about not making concessions in intabulating polyphony for the sake of fingering are an admonition to avoid altering the content of the piece to reduce fingering difficulties because a tablature score is meant to represent the music. Overcome the difficulties or not, but don't change the polyphony. Molinaro was an organist and his tablatures show what is possible but are certainly influenced by his conscious or unconscious reference to keyboard practice. Terzi was a freak if he could play all those notes in his intabulations while observing the tactus. Not bloody likely. He's probably laughing at us from another world. If there is one thing I have absorbed over thirty years of lute-playing and creating countless intabulations of sixteenth century polyphony, the score is a reservoir of information. It was always meant to be so. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Guilherme Barroso Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:15 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de Cc: LuteList ; lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations Yes, indeed. For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed exactly as written. About the Barrés with any other finger then the first. Has anyone seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 23:04, <[1]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> escreveu: This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? Sometimes, I have the impression that they used also Barrés with the second or third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play the first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by Hurel, which would need a barré with the second or fourth finger. I'll hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. So, in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or read it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" for them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if you actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > Dear Yuval, > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at some > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just not > possible. > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not possible > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find a > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 à s 20:50, <[2]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de> > escreveu: > >> Dear Guilherme, >> >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would be >> nice >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, >> and >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read all >> kind >> of tablature fluently - quite
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes. Hoping all are well and bearing up. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uM Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uM 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L1716332-3275TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes
Thank you Dick. We are glad to know you enjoy the music. More to come. Donna & Ron __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Dick Hoban Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 10:26 PM To: Ron Andrico Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes Thanks, Ron & Donna Your video is superb musical entertainment in our time of isolation and solitude. Dick Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 21, 2020, at 3:59 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: > >  Better late than never, we have posted a new video today with two songs > by Bartolomeo Tromboncino. We hope all are well, particularly our > friends in Italy. > > [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uC > > Ron & Donna > > Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com > > -- > > References > > Visible links: > 1. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uC > 2. [2]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link _campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link > > Hidden links: > 4. [3]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link _campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon > 5. [4]file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3435316-5532TMP.html#DAB4FA D8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uC 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 4. file:///net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3435316-5532TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
Better late than never, we have posted a new video today with two songs by Bartolomeo Tromboncino. We hope all are well, particularly our friends in Italy. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uC Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uC 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L3435316-5532TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Molinaro 12
I think it is generally accepted that fret positions that would call for glued frets on the belly are conceptual. Meaning, if there was a fret there, it would be an o. Molinaro's music is rich in rapid passage work but the real difficulty lies in managing the counterpoint. He was an organist and some of his lute tablature transcribed into keyboard notation could sound very well on an organ. I think he just worked out his lute arrangements to the fullest and expected that the player would aim for that ideal or modify as necessary. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Sean Smith Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 5:32 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Molinaro 12 Are we assuming belly frets up there? s On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Christopher Stetson <[1]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: ...or had large hands. Actually, though, I don't find them more technically difficult than many of the chanson intabulations of earlier publications. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 1:12 PM Tristan von Neumann <[1][2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: But seriously, how do you play (pardon my French) o k i ?? Molinaro must have played a small lute... On 15.03.20 17:59, Sean Smith wrote: > I foolishly mentioned that to him once. In his defense he pointed out > it was his first recording nearly 30 years ago. I'm still pretty > impressed with it. > And then there's his Terzi cd that is top notch. > Sean > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 11:22 AM Jurgen Frenz > <[1][2][3]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: > > what about asking him? > Some fool (for our free of charge pleasure) uploaded a CD of > Molinaro pieces played by Paul Beier (do you happen to know him?). > Mea culpa I downloaded it - but I believe I can hear how he was > struggling with the playing technique. > Best > JÃÃà ¼rgen > à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ Original Message à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ > On Sunday, March 15, 2020 3:38 PM, Tristan von Neumann > <[2][3][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > > But No. 12 is certainly one of the most difficult pieces of the > entire > > literature. > > I guess even Paul O'Dette struggled a lot with it. > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[5][6]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com > 2. mailto:[6][7]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 3. [7][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. mailto:[10]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 3. mailto:[11]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:[13]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 6. mailto:[14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [1]mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com 2. [2]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 3. [3]mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 4. [4]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [6]mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 7. [7]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [9]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 10. [10]mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 11. [11]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 12. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [13]mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 14. [14]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 15. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [16]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com 2.
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We quote ourselves this morning with a news-filled post. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uj Donna & Ron Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4uj 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L2981630-4778TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for this last leap year February morning. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4tU Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4tU To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposing/transcribing in fronimo.
I use Fronimo constantly and cannot praise Francesco's efforts enough in terms of its usefulness for lute music. But in transposing and transcribing, please take care that all work is checked thoroughly. I find that tablature characters are wrongly assigned at times, and carefully applied slurs simply disappear. In mensural music, transposing in Fronimo can be a real mess and I find that all rests and tied notes must be repositioned. Again, for lute music there is no better program. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 6:31 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Transposing/transcribing in fronimo. You may already know this, but transcription from one instrument (or tuning) to another can be done pretty easily through fronimo. Say you start with a version for Baroque lute in ton ravissant. If you go to F5/instrument, click on "transpose and transcribe" and then change the tuning to archlute (customized to fit whatever key you are using. This field doesn't use the "b" symbol, so you have to specify, e.g., Eb as D#, etc.) and hit OK, you will get a new version for the new instrument. Looking at the new version, you may need to tweak it a bit to make it playable, but that approach definitely works. I also use this strategy for converting from one sized lute to another. For example, suppose you have a ground written for bass lute in D. To rewrite it for, say, a 7 or 8-course or archlute in G, you start with the original version, go into F5/instrument and change the "first course" setting to D (the default setting is G), without hitting "transcribe or "transpose and transcribe", then hit "apply"; then change "first course" to G and choose "renaissance 7 course" or "renaissance 8-course" or "archlute", hit "transpose and transcribe", then OK, and you will get a new version for lute in G, which, again, you will usually have to tweak a bit. I use a similar approach to convert pieces where the 6th course is tuned down to F (or where other variant tunings have been used) to a version for 7- or 8-course lute or archlute in standard tuning. Under f5/instrument, I first put in the custom tunings using "modify custom tuning" as necessary to make the piece sound correct when played in fronimo. Then hit "apply". Then change to the tuning or instrument you want to change to, hit "transpose and transcribe", then "OK", and you will get the transposed version, which, again, will probably need to be tweaked to make it more playable. --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [1]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gerbode.net/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes featuring a chanson from Hortus Musarum. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4tv Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4tv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: pickup or mic inside lute
Actually, Bob Lundberg installed the pickup for Tom Bergen some years after I had Bob install a Fishman classical guitar transducer on my lute. We spent quite a bit of time and effort locating the pickup for an optimal result, and he made a customized endpin that hid a miniplug jack. It all worked like a charm. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of guy_and_liz Smith Sent: Friday, February 7, 2020 7:17 PM To: David van Ooijen Cc: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: pickup or mic inside lute If you can figure out how to get in touch with Tom Bergen in Seattle (last I heard...), he had a great sounding Lundberg 11 course French baroque instrument with an internal pickup mounted near or under the bridge. He had a miniplug built into the strap button that he connected to a wireless transmitter that he concealed under his coat (Pigtail?). Worked great. He played it at LSA one year and it was good enough to fool some well-known professionals. IIRC, it wasn't an add-on to an existing instrument; he had Lundberg build it specifically to accommodate the pickup, and I think it took at least a couple of tries to get it right. I don't recall any details, but I'm sure Tom could tell you if you can get ahold of him. I also have a Schertler (which I confess that I haven't actually used much). One thing I discovered is that it is quite sensitive to exactly where you stick it on the top. If you are getting a poor sound, try moving it around. For the instrument I tried it with, just above the base side of the bridge seemed to be the best spot, but YMMV. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Friday, February 7, 2020 2:52 AM Cc: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: pickup or mic inside lute I have a separate Schertler stick-on mic that I can use on all lutes/guitars I play. I can plug it into an amp I bring myself, or alternatively have a preamp (also Schertler) to give the PA-man a Direct Out while I'm still in control of my own EQ. The preamp also has a mute button, comes in handy when not playing or when tuning. A normal mic sounds better, but this works and had no feed back issues. A mic inside an instrument (I have a classical guitar with a build-in condenser mic) sounds rather boomy and can have feed-back issues. ymmv David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fda vidvanooijen.wordpress.comdata=02%7C01%7C%7C2ba98fe764fc47df4cfb08 d7abbc0536%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637166696333099 198sdata=YIN3NmhKr39X4IhZHC1rMvRWNJVvbzbD5nHZMgYZrLM%3Dreserv ed=0 *** On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 at 07:40, Ed Durbrow <[3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: I'm thinking of having my archlute repaired which will entail removal of the top. I'm also thinking if I do that, I'd like to have a pickup or mic installed. I'm looking for recommendations for a natural sounding pickup or mic inside the lute that is no hassle use. I need something that can be plugged into a wireless transmitter. The wireless system I have is a high end Sennheiser (ew 100 G2 ) that uses a condenser mic. I don't understand this stuff very well. I don't know if a pickup can look the same as a condenser mic to the transmitter. The ew-100 G2 manual says. AF characteristics Max. input voltage (at peak deviation) Microphone 1.8 Vrms, unbalanced 1.2 Veff, unbalanced Line 2.4 Vrms Input impedance Microphone 10 ké, unbalanced10 ké, unbalanced Line 1 Mé Thanks in advance. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][4]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F www.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Fedurbrow%3Ffeature%3Dwatchdata=02%7C01%7C %7C2ba98fe764fc47df4cfb08d7abbc0536%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435% 7C1%7C0%7C637166696333109190sdata=lfcAz%2Bv5LTmS7htXonl7a9mlUstBZ1 1pLWh6GPfUM8s%3Dreserved=0 [2][5]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2 Fsoundcloud.com%2Fed-durbrowdata=02%7C01%7C%7C2ba98fe764fc47df4cfb 08d7abbc0536%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C6371666963331 09190sdata=o1COkdfvBD4KlBy7ceyIUZX5a4hCq4pkb%2FiXgOcZMPU%3Dre served=0 [3][6]https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for February 1st. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sZ Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sZ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today with a featured chanson from Attaingnant, 1529. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sH Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another controversial question (again)
Tristan, I would hesitate to say that Spinacino was a bad composer for the lute. Quite the contrary, considered in context his work represented a very high standard of writing for the instrument. The value judgement of Spinacino's work must be weighed against the position it occupies as the very first instrumental music published with moveable type. Were there mistakes? Multitudes. To truly judge the worth of the music in Spinacino's book(s) it is absolutely essential that one compare the intabulations against the vocal models. I have done this for a large proportion of the intabulations and, after adjustments and replacing missing measures, find Spinacino's settings of vocal music to be quite brilliant. Likewise, his instrumental recercars must be analyzed as sectional pieces. There are cases where what amounts to separate sections are strung together without fermati or double bars. If we adjust for this and deliver a more sensitive and flexible interpretation, the writing can be quite nice. The other mistake we make is in considering Spinacino's work as marking an abrupt change from plectrum to fingerstyle play. This is a patently absurd idea that defies practical musical sense. There was an obvious unwritten tradition of arranging polyphony for the lute that predates the first publication. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 3:52 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] another controversial question (again) After the Milan discussion which I enjoyed a lot, I'd like to bring up again my question, which I would love to be discussed in the same manner as the Milan controversy (which really wasn't one, granted). As you all know, the first prints were of pieces by one "Francesco Spinacino", about whom we know practically nothing. Some say, these pieces are of, erm, mediocre quality. (Lukas Henning dedicated a whole video to the "bad compositions") Personally, I think many of them are not so bad, and the gimmicky ones like the one in all modes, and the ricercar with cadences on all 12 notes are particularly original. When looking for the oldest lute pieces, I played through Pesaro Ms. (the heart shaped one), Bossinensis, and also the Capirola Lute Book. What I noticed was that the Capirola pieces are stylistically most similar to Spinacino's works. (also the "Benedictus" quotes in Ricercars of both composers) Playing both just "feels" like the technique of the same person or at least the same approach. (Of course, maybe Capirola just learned his lute playing on the basis of the Spinacino albums) I talked with Lukas Henning about that, and he said that Capirola is so much better, therefore the two can't be the same person. I disagree with that view, because the Books are 10 years apart, and there is no argument against the development of better compositional skillz, especially by an amateur like Capriola. Maybe he just learned some things during that decade... My thought was: what if "Francesco Spinacino" is the pen name of Capirola, who as a nobleman in early 16th century did not want to publish music under his real name, because musicians were still considered kind of "low life" (which changed a few years later, when it was considered fashionable to make music, see: Il Cortegiano) Why did Petrucci publish this music and not that of more praised composers? I am sure they would have been delighted to see their music printed. If Capirola was involved, maybe he financed the print? Since this would have to be the first lute music printed, there was a certain risk if it was successful or not. No one knew if lutenists would buy those books. If it was sponsored it would have been a good market test with no risk. Are there any records of the early Petrucci company? When I told a friend who speaks Italian fluently about "Spinacino", she immediately laughed. "You know this means something like "Spinach guy", was he a spinach farmer?" Surely he wasn't a sailor... If anyone knows anything that would corroborate or contradict this idea, please go ahead. Last time this came up, there wasn't much sensible response. Thanks! To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today, which have nothing whatsoever to do with Milan. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sx Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sx To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart: Not knowing exactly what you are aiming for, you can do no better than the Conde claros variations in the Marsh ms., p. 232, for a folksy character, although the character is decidedly English rather than Spanish. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Stewart McCoy Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:11 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v1 0_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - CODA
I finally heard from Ignacio Lopez, who is currently presenting the results of his research on Spanish poetry and the music of the vihuelists. "In general terms, it is easy to affirm that Luys Milán had a great deal of Italian influence, although it is unsure he traveled to Italy. His Maestro de vihuela includes the first Italian sonnets ever printed in Spain, and he spent most of his working life at the viceregal court of Valencia. During that time, the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragon, who previously had been the prince heir of Naples before he was brought to Spain after his kingdom was conquered. In his book El Cortesano, Luis Milán challenges Baldasarre Castiglione with another model for the ideal courtier. Milán includes in this book several references to Dante and Petrarch, as well as a recreation of the Italian celebrations for the arrival of the month of May. In what relates to his music, he has been compared with the Italian frottolists (I am unsure of the English spelling here) and some other Italian influences. However, I have never read anything concrete in that regard." __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Lex van Sante Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:04 PM To: Mathias Rösel ; lute mailing list list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear all. Jordi Savall is a promoter of Catalan culture an language. As Valencian language is closely allied to Catalan he apparently saw no problem in catalanizeing ;-) Milan's name. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 8 jan. 2020, om 09:55 heeft Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> het volgende geschreven: Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias Rà �sel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rà �sel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: [2][2]r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias RÃÃà �sel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2][3][3]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÃà �sel <[3][4][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: à �à �à � Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was and is his name, and he's not from Milano. They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Jurgen Frenz Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr An: Antonio Corona Cc: [4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Here is the collection of names for SeÃà à �or Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ÃÃà � à � Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃà à �n, Luys Milan, Luis de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs del MilÃà ÃÃà � à � Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃà à �n, ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �, LluÃÃs del MilÃà , ÃÃÃà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à � Ãà à �Ãà ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà ÃÃà � à � Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs MilÃà , Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃà , LluÃÃs Mila, LluÃÃs de MilÃÃ
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Antonio: Thank you for this clarification. While I appreciate Milan and his status as a pioneer in documenting Spanish music and courtly customâand setting a standard for the later viheula printsâit seems to me (and others) that he was strongly influenced by trends emerging from Italy. I don't know this for certain but I suspect Milan was among the first to use of the term Fantasia to describe his instrumental excogitations, since Recercar was the preferred term in the earlier Italian lute books. One last thing regarding surnames: It is interesting to note that El Maestro was published by Francisco DÃaz Romano, a fairly unambiguous reference. Best wishes, RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:21 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear Ron I`m sorry if my position is unclear. It would be foolish to claim that Milan was unaware of the cultural currents prevalent at the time. He moved in one of the most refined courts of the time and surely was influenced -one way or another- by them. For example, the poetic trends in Spain at the time, as López Alemany puts forward, can be clearly detected in Milán by his use of the Italian sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. This influence can also be found later in Mudarra's own book. Furthermore, the first evidence of the use of the Italian sonnet as a means for poetic expression in Spanish date from some time before, according to Juan Boscán, who was prompred by a conversation with Andrea Navaggiero in 1526 to try his hand at writing Spanish endecasyllabic poetry. Boscán published his first book of such verse in 1543 and guess what: sure enough, later on Milán included more that 40 sonnets in Spanish in El Cortesano. He was indeed aware and influenced of the cultural t! rends of his time. Now, I would be wary of confusing this influence with the direct use of Italian models for his own compositions. While there is a resemblance in the harmonic pattern (if I may anachronistically call it that way) between Verdelot and Miláns versions of Maddona, I think that Milán did not derive his own from any of the Verdelot's books; the evidence may be flimsy, but there is a textual difference between both versions that suggets that Milán drew his text from another source: "et voi non me´l credete " (Verdelot) as opposed to "et voi non mi credete" (Milán). I am aware that this may be subjet to criticism, but to me it points to a more complex and rich transmission process than a mere A - B situation. Regarding Castiglione`s Cortegiano, we may imagine its possible impact, but I must stress that we have no evidence, no way of knowing how it might have influenced Milán, if it really did. We can postulate, using the same historic imagination (as Collingwood called it) such an influence upon any cultured member of the Spanish society of the time, with exactly the same possibility of demonstrating it for the large majority of them. I must insist that, having read both Cortesanos, find no evidence of Castiglione's counsel for a courtier in Miláns account of life at the Valencian court other than the dialogue form. There are no discussions on culture, arts, behaviour, etc. in Milán's book which at times reads more as a gossip column. Take, for example, an occasion when Milán tried to hide himself on top of a tree and when found cried "I am a fig". Hardly any Castiglione there. I agree with you in defining Miláns music as idiosyncratic. His own stamp, however, resides precisely in this approach, surely conditioned as well by his lack of formal training in music. While it may seem that I strive to defend him, what I think is that he had his own way, highly personal, with faults and virtues, of composing, unlike the vihuelists that followed him. To this end he did not rely on the imitation of other models, while nevertheless being aware and possibly influenced by them. I hope I have made my position clear now. Best wishes, Antonio On Monday, 6 January 2020, 10:16:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: It seems clear that Don Luys Milan was consistent how he wished to be acknowledged, unlike Dowland, who apparently changed the spelling of his name every time he put pen to paper. The sorts of variants we see attached to recordings and articles seem to have more to do with the choices of modern authors and recording artists. But returning to the point, I am not certain, Antonio, whether you are steadfastly claiming that Luys Milan was a completely original composer and author and was entirely uninfluenced by
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
It seems clear that Don Luys Milan was consistent how he wished to be acknowledged, unlike Dowland, who apparently changed the spelling of his name every time he put pen to paper. The sorts of variants we see attached to recordings and articles seem to have more to do with the choices of modern authors and recording artists. But returning to the point, I am not certain, Antonio, whether you are steadfastly claiming that Luys Milan was a completely original composer and author and was entirely uninfluenced by foreign models, or whether you are just saying that his setting of Madonna per voi ardo is distinct from the better-known version from Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali. Actually, the opening of Milan's setting does resemble that of Verdelot, and any well-connected musician of the time would have been aware of the immensely popular madrigals spewing forth from Italy (Verdelot was known to have worked in both Venice and Florence). And just like the popularity of Verdelot's madrigals, I cannot imagine Milan was not influenced by Castiglione when he produced his Cortesano some thirty years later. On to the larger question, I suggest that Milan was entirely influenced by the new currents of music, poetry and courtly custom emanating from the Italian states, as was the rest of Europe and the Holy Roman Empire. He just put his own stamp on those influences and produced his own idiosyncratic music, much like Tobias Hume in the realm of English ayres. I have not had a chance to correspond directly with Ignacio López Alemany, but he proposes that very same position: "López Alemanyâs project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry within the broader context of court performances. The study of this ânew poetry,â as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists â musicians who played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument â selected, modified, and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the role of poetry in the early modern period." RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ⦠I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples, including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552) and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin, Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan had access to examples for his instrumental settings. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
Happy New Year to all. We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sk Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4sk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Antonio: I find this discussion intriguing. While Milan was certainly a capable (if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others. In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglioneâs Il Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated) that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and available as early as Castiglione's book. In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music was taught the rules of composing. And while today we tend to measure a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th century. An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect we enjoy today. In the 16th century either form would have been attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book. I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and put his stamp on it. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Dear Dmitry I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: Dear Antonio, I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own. Dmitry On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > Dear Dmitry > > You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music. > > Cheers > Antonio > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: > > > > > > Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :) > > On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: >> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per >> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan? >> >> Cheers, >> Dmitry >> >> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without >>> basis. >>> >>> About authorship: >>> >>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] >>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he >>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia >>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su >>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me >>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues >>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. >>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran >>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria >>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. >>> >>> About the meaning of "componer": >>> >>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en >>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y >>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras >>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada >>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia. >>> >>> About the villancicos: >>> >>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y >>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano >>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian >>> villancicos]. >>> >>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y >>> en portugues /y en
[LUTE] Re: modern lute editions
As a publisher of modern editions of old music, I believe those of us who care about making the music truly accessible to a broad audience that includes possible new converts to early music will take necessary steps to present music in a clear, legible format. Denizens of the lute world forget (sometimes conveniently) that old notation, and particularly lute tablature, remains a puzzle to many musicians. Even conservatory students. If we wish to attract a larger audience to our instrument and our music, we should do the responsible thing: Welcome and guide newcomers through the maze of occult-locked-up-secrets. By the way, we just published volume one of the Mignarda Songbook. [1]https://www.mignarda.com/editions/ RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Christopher Stetson Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 3:22 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: modern lute editions Hi, everyone. Just my two farthings on this opinion fest: I'm perfectly comfortable reading both from facsimile and modern editions, French, Italian, or "Spanish", but only stumbling German. I don't find modern editions especially ugly, and many original manuscripts (the early ones especially) are hardly beautiful, at least to my eye, and I can say the same of manuscripts in my own hand. I remember the time before internet digitization, and I'm very glad they're available, but many library- or university-based online sources are cumbersome to access. I am, though, glad that the mid-20th century practice of printing tablature paired with grand staff a la CNRS (apologies to Arthur N.) has fallen out of favor. I admit there is a certain satisfaction to reading from original books, but when I need a copy of "Sweet Stay Awhile" stat for a rehearsal, [1]gerbode.net is where I turn. Please don't stop, Sarge! Best to all, Happy 2020, and keep playing, Chris. On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: l don't see the big problem in reading facsimile tabs. I think this has more to do with sight-reading. I am lazy and don't want to practice pieces. But playing a lot of different pieces you understand certain similarities that become useful when sight-reading manuscripts. You just know how the piece goes, or at least from experience you play something that wouldn't be considered "wrong" where you have to guess quickly. So the encouragement should be: practice sight-reading. On 22.12.19 15:29, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Dear Martyn, > I must beg to differ on that one. I, personally, prefer to play from original tabs including German tab, but I have seen too many students, not advanced students of course, who gave up in front of a facsimile tab. > So, although I agree on the advantages of playing from original sources, I reiterate my grateful thanks to Sarge, Doug and others for making so many little known works available to all, encouraging them to become acquainted with the sources and to make their own research afterwards. > Best wishes > Jean-Marie > >> Le 22 déc. 2019 à 12:48, Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> a écrit : >> >> Dear Jean-Marie, >> One really doesn't need to be a 'professional' to read from early >> MSs and printed editions - it's really not difficult and does a >> disservice to many, if not most, lute and guitar players by >> underestimating their abilities. >> Where I do believe modern tablature editions have a valued place >> is in the production of complete editions (with scholarly notes too) >> of a particular composer's work or of a particular work set by >> various composers (as well as Anon). John Robinson is, in my view, >> the principal torch bearer for much fine modern work in this line.. >> regards >> Martyn > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [2]http://gerbode.net/ 2. [3]mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 3. [4]mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.mignarda.com/editions/ 2. http://gerbode.net/ 3.
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes for today, December 14, 2019. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4rK Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4rK To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quote after a bit of hiatus. Something about Dowland. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4ru Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4ru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: status of Courantes at there time
Tristan: You are fortunate in that there is a great deal of information about historical dance available. Start here. RA [1]https://www.loc.gov/collections/dance-instruction-manuals-from-1490- to-1920/articles-and-essays/western-social-dance-an-overview-of-the-col lection/renaissance-dance/ [2]Renaissance Dance | Western Social Dance: An Overview of the Collection | Articles and Essays | An American Ballroom Companion: Dance Instruction Manuals, ca. 1490-1920 | Digital Collections | Library of Congress Renaissance Dance. The cultural period known as the high Renaissance, c.1550-1650, produced the manuals of several important dancing masters: Thoinot Arbeau (Jehan Tabourot; born 17 March 1520 in Dijon, France, died 21 July 1595 in Langres), Fabritio Caroso (born c.1526 or1535 in Sermoneta, Italy, died after 1605), and Cesare Negri (born c.1535 in Milan, Italy, died c.1604). www.loc.gov __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 9:25 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: status of Courantes at there time Not all courantes are easy to play though :))) I would be very happy to receive any info on the possible dance moves around 1600. Virus-free. [3]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://www.loc.gov/collections/dance-instruction-manuals-from-1490-to-1920/articles-and-essays/western-social-dance-an-overview-of-the-collection/renaissance-dance/ 2. https://www.loc.gov/collections/dance-instruction-manuals-from-1490-to-1920/articles-and-essays/western-social-dance-an-overview-of-the-collection/renaissance-dance/ 3. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 5. https://www.loc.gov/collections/dance-instruction-manuals-from-1490-to-1920/articles-and-essays/western-social-dance-an-overview-of-the-collection/renaissance-dance/ 6. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 7. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L18265-546TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro
Depending upon the circumstance, I always resist the urge to improve upon the choices made by an historical composer, scribe or publisher. If performing a piece for the entertainment of myself or others, anything goes. But if editing for the purpose of publishing an edition of historical music, I feel that one should just let it be if it is not a mistake (missing measures, wrong cipher on wrong line). Improving upon the original is a slippery slope, and it is a wee bit presumptuous to think that, with centuries of hindsight and examples like Wagner and Charles Ives, we know better than the old ones. If we decide to improve upon the historical music that has come down to us, what is next? Synthetic strings? Amplified lutes? Music performed from ipad? RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 9:17 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro I always feel compelled to "correct" these instances, because to me it just does not sound right as is, and it's no big deal to play the 4 on the next course. To me, the bottom line is what sounds good. --Sarge On 10/14/2019 13:34, r.ba...@gmx.de wrote: > Something a bit similar is where one finds a cadential ornament with > frets 2 1 2 1 2 1 0 1 2 , instead of going down to the 4 on the next > string in place of the zero. One finds this occasionally in German tab > sources and I assume elsewhere. I've always found it rather bizarre. > But if it goes by quickly, I guess it could work.) -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [1]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gerbode.net/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
>On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without personality. Francesco I just found this message from Francesco (in the wrong mail folder) and have to say thanks for your words of wisdom on the subject. One might say that LLD got what they deserved by seeking out a low-budget producer of their instruments. The reason goods from that particular locale are inexpensive is because 1) they pay their workers a pittance, and 2) their business practices follow a path quite divergent from those of the west. While it is a good thing to take steps to make lutes more affordable to a broader public, it would be a better thing to look at the problem from a wide perspective. If we care about cultivating an appreciation for the lute and its music, we should care about cultivating the craft skill of making lutes. Why not put energy (and money) into apprentice programs to train the next generation of luthiers? The shortage of skilled luthiers is a very serious problem, and having a local luthier would be a blessing. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Francesco Tribioli Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:08 AM To: 'David van Ooijen' Cc: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes Exactly. In my opinion the right violation can be only on the brand mark, if it has been registered and if Thomann lutes had it on them. There could not be a copyright on a lute design, in my opinion, as they are from historical designs which are public domain. Probably if the LDD rosette was a very special design they could register it but it is a standard original design that every luthier has used once in his life. It is like the copyright on fonts. One can copyright the font file, that is the computer instructions that permit the rendering of the typeface on screen and printer, but cannot copyright the typeface, the actual aspect of the characters. If there is some special lute feature exclusive of LDD lutes, that could be copyrighted, but if they are "almost" traditional I think everyone is authorized to make an identical lute. At the end it is even difficult to say if the plan used is protected. In principle yes, but one could have copied one of the already built lutes, as it is usually done with the museum lutes, and have his own plane. To be honest, in this case it seems there is not even a guarantee that those lutes didn't come from the same factory. If this is the case both Thomann and LDD have been tricked by the Chinese makers and LDD should complain with the Chinese maker, if there is a contract of exclusive supply. If the Chinese didn't sign a contract in exclusive they might even be in their right to sell the same lute to other brands... On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without personality. Francesco > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di David van Ooijen > Inviato: venerdì 20 settembre 2019 11:00 > Cc: Lute List > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes > >I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann >instead of the Chinese supplier. Chinese suppliers of copied >instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and not form >their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson, >Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures >taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from >what you will actually get. I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by >distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the >stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the >Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should > be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier. >On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically >accurate lute. If a luthier makes a
[LUTE] Lute / Harp Duet
A lute and harp duet from yesterday's concert: [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4HhNq6-c0o RA -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4HhNq6-c0o To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is
Rainer, you wrote that you were interested in using the inclusion of the psalm text to help date the ms. Yes, the fact that it may have been written in at a later day was obvious and I was surprised you overlooked the fact. I'm just wondering why you mentioned this to the list. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:35 AM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is On 06.09.2019 23:26, Ron Andrico wrote: > Rainer, the text could very well have been copied into the ms at a > later date. I have no idea what you want to tell us. The lute music was copied around 1600. The text was almost certainly copied in or after 1679. This is so obvious that I have not mentioned it. Rainer > RA > __ > > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > on behalf of Rainer > > Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 5:37 PM > To: Lute net > Subject: [LUTE] The Lord my careful Shepherd is > > Dear lute netters, > some of you may know that the Euing lute manuscript contains texts > written upside-down on some pages. > On the bottom of folio 41r which contains Holborne's Posthuma pavan > there is a relatively long text written in a very small hand > upside-down. > I have managed to identify the text - in the hope it may help to date > the manuscript. > It is a translation of the famous 23. psalm - know from dozens of > Westerns and even science fiction films. > "Unfortunately" this version is drawn from a book published in 1679 - > much later than the lute music. > See > The Psalms of David-, > by John Patrick, D.D. Preacher to the Charter House, > London:ââ¬âLondon 1679. > In > HISTORY > OF THE > Scottish Metrical Psalms; > WITH AN ACCOUNT OF > THE PARAPHRASES AND HYMNS, > AND OF THE > MUSIC OF THE OLD PSALTER. > by J. W. MACMEEKEN, > Glasgow, 1872 > there is an appendix with 42 [sic!] versions of the 23. psalm and this > version appears only once. > Therefore I have little doubts rewarding its origin. > Rainer > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, more on singing with the lute. Ron & Donna [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4q9 -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4q9 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is
Rainer, the text could very well have been copied into the ms at a later date. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 5:37 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] The Lord my careful Shepherd is Dear lute netters, some of you may know that the Euing lute manuscript contains texts written upside-down on some pages. On the bottom of folio 41r which contains Holborne's Posthuma pavan there is a relatively long text written in a very small hand upside-down. I have managed to identify the text - in the hope it may help to date the manuscript. It is a translation of the famous 23. psalm - know from dozens of Westerns and even science fiction films. "Unfortunately" this version is drawn from a book published in 1679 - much later than the lute music. See The Psalms of David-, by John Patrick, D.D. Preacher to the Charter House, London:âLondon 1679. In HISTORY OF THE Scottish Metrical Psalms; WITH AN ACCOUNT OF THE PARAPHRASES AND HYMNS, AND OF THE MUSIC OF THE OLD PSALTER. by J. W. MACMEEKEN, Glasgow, 1872 there is an appendix with 42 [sic!] versions of the 23. psalm and this version appears only once. Therefore I have little doubts rewarding its origin. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this time on a topic of crucial importance to lutenists who perform with singers. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4pn Ron & Donna -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4pn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen
Sean, I think your observations about the contents of publications by Phalese and Adriaenssen are worthwhile. I would only like to draw attention to another anachronism you introduced: the idea of performance as a goal on the part of purchasers of these publications. It is clear that providing adaptable household music for a variety of instrumental and vocal resources was really the goal of the publishers, not providing rep for a band that would like to get a drummer and a couple of bicycles and go on the road. Today, we are so removed from music as (essential) self-made entertainment, rather than music as a commodity, that we forget just how important it was for a household to have the resources to create music a la mode. And we forget how incredibly expensive these publications were (not to mention lute strings), ensuring that a limited amount of music was played again and again to the point where players could get inside the music and memorize and/or improvise. For themselves, not for the public. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Sean Smith Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 7:05 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen The answer may lie with the undocumented performers and performing groups. They improvised and different groups would have varied success among tastes of various patrons, situations and other qualifiers. Sometimes these techniques would surface in the printed materials, mss, accounts or iconography. Some of this survives as we have found. Getting back to the passages that your first illustrated, I'm wondering if that was a printed way of saying "this is how you can get the most sound/volume for these parts, should you need them." It's almost a strum but we know that never happened, right? Or suppose you were duetting with a cittern player who wanted a solo and you were called on to imitate his accompaniment? A lot of Adr./Phalese (1563 onwards) is performance-based and the all-inclusiveness suggests to me that many of the volumes were meant and advertised as "all-you-need" for one's lutering needs, the Adr of '84 and '92 being the epitomes of the concept. So I think there are examples of everything we need to understand the art of lute playing as Adr./Phalese saw it in his time. While they are complete in their way, it needs (or wants) the player to expand on it. If we played Adr. perfectly then we would be no different than the other player (or group) who plays Adr. perfectly. Then, as now, how would the player sell himself as better other than bringing something new to the table? I'm not suggesting we be anachronistic or bring in influence from places that would not have been influential at the time by any means but there are enough hints that the printed page is not sacrosanct. If we improvise there is the pitfall of those rightly saying "but that note/passage/instrument/combination wasn't played". On the other hand there is the stronger suggestion for lutenists that you must learn to improvise in their tradition (notes and instruments). We, in the 21st century must thread that needle. So, yes: that passage feels anachronistic but only because we --now-- can't see what possibilities they felt were available to them or the demands made of them. Sean On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 10:25 AM Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Dear Joachim, yes I know, I have played all of those. But really I am interested in this kind of off-beat figuration that thrives on thirds. Dowland and maybe Huwet used those sometimes. Huwet was also from the Netherlands and I read Dowland befriended Huwet in Wolfenbüttel. I don't know who influenced whom, but maybe you know? On 11.08.19 18:36, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: > Dear Tristan, > > just in short (I am traveling and I don't have the sources at hand): You may not find exactly the same accord arpeggios (another anachronism, ;) ), but you will find similar things in different sets of variations on Conde Claros and other tunes and models. > > Best > > Joachim > > > -Original-Nachricht- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen > Datum: 2019-08-10T12:55:41+0200 > Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> > An: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Dear Joachim, > > > I used this term
[LUTE] Re: RH folk style
<'accords brisés'>?
Is this yet another contrived modern term that a modern person is
imposing on an antique musical device?
"The term most frequently used by modern writers to describe the
musical style of the seventeenth-century French lutenists is the style
brise ("broken style"). Although the word brise was used in the
seventeenth century to distinguish a type of ornament,' the term style
brise was apparently coined in the twentieth century. After an
exhaustive search through dictionaries, lexicons, theoretical
treatises, practical sources, and contemporary accounts, I am unable to
find a single example of the term style brise used in any previous
century." - David Buch, The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 71, No. 1 (1985),
p. 52.
RA
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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style
Tristan, while Vallet was very specific about right-hand fingering, I'm fairly certain there are no indications for thumb-index alternation in Ballard's music, and it's a leap to think that articulation marks are specifically tied to right-hand fingering. Yes, there are right-hand dots but I remain unconvinced that these single dots are specific to use of the right-hand index finger. The dots could just as well simply indicate weak beats so the reader can keep track for the purpose of articulation, regardless of which digit is used on the strong beat. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style Robert Ballard seems to have used thumb in though, as the points show. And that was after Besard and Dowland. I think the music always suggests thumb-out, if it was supposed to be played that way. If you have passages in the upper part accompanied by deep bass, you automatically use index-middle-finger, because it's easier to play. Some tablatures seem to even suggest both techniques in one piece. The same pieces have different fingerings in different sources sometimes. On 01.08.19 22:03, Mathias Rösel wrote: > Well, I've been a member on the list as well. As it seems to me, all > authors after 1600 who deal with this subject recommend thumb out. > Vallet even ridicules thumb in. > We'll never know what player actually did, if they complied with the > recommendations. Today, research on strings and soundboards points into > the same direction: thumb out. > Everybody is free, if course, to do what they like best. Everybody has > been so, ever since. I don't care. And I don't want to listen to > players who play the baroque lute thumb in, any more. > my two cents. just an ordinary member > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: G. C. > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style > Datum: 01.08.2019, 21:46 Uhr > An: Lutelist > > Eloquently said Ron, as always! > G. > tor. 1. aug. 2019 kl. 21.28 skrev Ron Andrico > <[1][2]praelu...@hotmail.com>: > Relax, Howard. No one is on trial here. Perhaps anathema is a > less > apt choice to describe alternatives to a right-hand position for > playing post-1600 repertory on proper lutes. But for all > intents and > purposes, thumb-under technique is certainly not an historically > appropriate right-hand position for what we call baroque lute. > That is > not to say it was never used, but Besard (Dowland) and Vallet, > said it > in print, and there are countless pictorial representations from > the > period that strongly suggest the right-hand thumb was very, very > much > out. > This is a difficult truth to countenance for all those notable > soldiers > of the famous 1970s thumb-under brigade, who fought long and > loudly to > distinguish themselves from lute-dabbling classical guitarists > (even to > the point of eschewing the wearing of the ceremonial black > turtleneck), > but it is a truth nonetheless. I'll say it here: Based upon the > body > of surviving evidence from the period, lutes with diapasons > designed to > be used for post-1600 music were historically intended to be > played > with the right-hand thumb out, not under. > RA > __ > From: [2][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[3][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of howard > posner > <[4][5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 5:18 PM > To: Lutelist <[5][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style > I'm not aware of anyone on this stating categorically that > thumb-in is > anathema on the d-minor lute. But I could easily have missed > it, or > deleted it and forgotten about it. I tend not to waste time > dealing > with categorical statements about how every player in history > played > the same way. And if, by chance, I've ever written anything here
[LUTE] Re: RH folk style
Relax, Howard. No one is on trial here. Perhaps anathema is a less apt choice to describe alternatives to a right-hand position for playing post-1600 repertory on proper lutes. But for all intents and purposes, thumb-under technique is certainly not an historically appropriate right-hand position for what we call baroque lute. That is not to say it was never used, but Besard (Dowland) and Vallet, said it in print, and there are countless pictorial representations from the period that strongly suggest the right-hand thumb was very, very much out. This is a difficult truth to countenance for all those notable soldiers of the famous 1970s thumb-under brigade, who fought long and loudly to distinguish themselves from lute-dabbling classical guitarists (even to the point of eschewing the wearing of the ceremonial black turtleneck), but it is a truth nonetheless. I'll say it here: Based upon the body of surviving evidence from the period, lutes with diapasons designed to be used for post-1600 music were historically intended to be played with the right-hand thumb out, not under. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 5:18 PM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style Iâm not aware of anyone on this stating categorically that thumb-in is anathema on the d-minor lute. But I could easily have missed it, or deleted it and forgotten about it. I tend not to waste time dealing with categorical statements about how every player in history played the same way. And if, by chance, I've ever written anything here in the last 25 years that sounds like a categorical statement about the way every player, ever, played the same way, chalk it up to sloppy writing (or thinking), delete it, and forget about it. > On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:23 AM, G. C. wrote: > > People on this list f. ex.? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH folk style
I saw that video yesterday as well, and Joan Baez stated herself that it wasn't a very good song, but the subject matter was relevant - pointed commetary about a very nasty man. She seemed to be wearing plastic fingerpicks and was capoed up to play in G position but sound in the key of C. I think it was a great deal of unnecessary effort to avoid an awkward chord but I completely understand the compromises we must make at times. It's an interesting observation that many of my newbie guitar students hold their right hands in a very natural thumb-under position, which I don't discourage unless they wish to gravitate toward classical rep. I am firm in the belief that historical lute players held their hands in a comfortable natural position and did not stress themselves about potential criticism from snarky people cloaked behind curtains and lurking in the shrubberies to point out that they are doing it wrong. In fact, the iconography bears out this assumption. We still suffer today from the disagreements of the 1970s when some classical guitarists gravitated towards playing the lute and identified themselves as unique by snarking at other classical guitarists who didn't wish to change their hand position. These individuals are still around and the matter hangs in the air like a stale fart. Players from circa 1500 did not have this problem. I'm not a classical guitarist and I don't have this problem. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:45 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] RH folk style I recently viewed a video of Joan Baez on guitar. Finger picks, but with a slightly modified thumb-in and pinky firmly anchored on the soundboard. (Good political protest song, BTW.) Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: "Equal" temoerament
Galilei arrived at the best approximation with the information and tools available to him at the time. No other system could be more appropriate to the (evolving) music of his time. And he had a grasp of the physical realities of the lute, as well as taste. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2019 2:15 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] "Equal" temoerament By the way, a few minutes ago I calculated the first terms of the continued fraction expansion of the twelfth root of 2 (which is infinite and non-periodic-the continued fraction and the decimal fraction :)). This gives in a precisely defined meaning the "best" approximations of 2^(1/12) in rational numbers. The first approximations are: 1 not very useful for tuning :) 17/16 quite good 18/17 Much better - Galilei was lucky here 89/84 Too complicated already A stack of 12 semitones at 18/17 gives an octave of 1.985559952 Best wishes, Rainer PS As far as I know the first who clearly states that the twelfth root of two should be used was Hendrik Stevin in his "Van de Spiegheling der Singconst" written before 1608 but not published until 1894. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Having played all manner of ensemble music, including cittern in consort, for upwards of forty years, yes, I agree. And in such cases, lute players, who have more flexibility, must shove their moveable frets around to arrive at a reasonably tempered scale, hopefully using their ears. It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in ensemble because that means open strings have to be altered. The math is interesting but the ears are necessary. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 7:39 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true for the wind and keyboard instruments in l'Orfeo or the Maria Vespers. Lutes are not solo instruments only, when they go out in the world and meet their fellow instruments, they'll have to adapt. Or play out of tune/temperament. David On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:34, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of David van Ooijen <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > > on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the > language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of > modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted > viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [12]www.avast.com -- *** David van Ooijen [13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [14]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References Visible links: 1. [1]mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. [2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [4]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. [5]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [6]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [7]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [8]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. [12]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link m_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 13. [13]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. [14]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ Hidden links: 16. [15]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link m_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 17. [16]file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L21479-7619TMP.html#m_63274 39462815053038_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link 13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 14. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 15. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 16. file:///net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L21479-7619TMP.html#m_6327439462815053038_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard instrument. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern interpretation or an awkward stretch. > >on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the >language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of >modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted >viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 6. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 7. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L16092-349TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering and amending my words, a typical lawyerly device. I did not state that following Galilei's precepts is the one true way. I said that musicians who understand music and wish to explore the more interesting repertory temper their instrument according to Galilei's precepts. I stand by my words as I originally stated. No subtlety. No spin. Go back to work. __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . . > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. But youâre the one who just wrote: > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. If thereâs a difference between âtuning according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei is the one true wayâ and âmusicians who donât tune according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei donât understand music,â itâs a subtlety lost on someone who hasnât your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from contradictory ones. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L14548-9033TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory statement, barbs and all. But we dwell in an age that places far too much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations stand without remarks. We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have been on the public stage for many years. What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true way. And I do not value the manner in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus sales. As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us today as applied to our chosen repertory. Martyn H pointed out, as I have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched on. There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways application of modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted viol is a bit of an awkward stretch. As for the lute, the frets move. Move them until the music sounds right. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments > On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > musicians who > understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for > lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal > temperament. You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence. As a person who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L25094-236TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal temperament. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments I know this is a wide topic... Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr. Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later 16th century music. It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then. Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended. Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing). What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I appreciate positive insights into similarities in music that in some small way tie seemingly disparate cultures together. And I appreciate the enthusiasm of discovery as expressed by younger lute fanciers. The lute world is populated by far too many individuals who are absolutely certain they have it all figured out, and who love to indulge in cynical judgements when confronted by ideas emerging from outside their zone of comfort. While research, time and experience instruct us to temper the language with which we describe a discovery or an insight, I prefer to encourage fresh ideas about old music. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Braig, Eugene Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 1:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. No musician generates music without any reference to other music. Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similaritiesâeven if granted to be strongâconstitute exciting discoveries. . . . yet again. Without explicit period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > [2]https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite -o > f-spring/ > >> >> >>> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you] >>> >>> >>> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you. >>> >>> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources: >>> >>> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga >>> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece. >>> >>> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli. >>> >>> >>> Both mashups can be heard here: >>> >>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar >>> -no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh >>> >>> [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir >>> itata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix >>> >>> >>> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it. >>> >>> >>> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists - >>> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is >>> also easy. >>> >>> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith. >>> >>> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the >>> concepts are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment. >>> >>> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+). >>> >>> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling. >>> >>> >>> [Thank you for your attention.] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > -- References 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY 2. https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-o 3. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar 4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spir 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week to do with recercars and rhetoric. [1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4nT Ron & Donna Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com -- References Visible links: 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4nT 2. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link Hidden links: 4. https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon 5. file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L18626-1214TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room
It seems excessively harsh to state that "We need to be wary of statements in Lundbergâs book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it...". My reference to Lundberg's comments were gleaned personal conversation with Lundberg. Yes, he was working hard on completing the book before he passed, and he very likely would have made further refinements, but the book was really a distillation of lengthy series of highly detailed articles previously published in American Lutherie, the quarterly journal of the Guild of American Luthiers. It is unkind to call into question an entire important body of work due to a sentence that was likely misplaced by a hasty editor. Apply your standard to other publications out there and we are compelled to discount the value of many works that have been given monumental status despite being rife with errors. Francesco. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:06 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room We need to be wary of statements in Lundbergâs book, inasmuch as he died without finishing it and the publisher(s) chose to present it as is, although there are some things in it that he could not possibly have meant, such as âThe one lute-family instrument being built during this period is the theorbo.â (p. 12) He seems to have been referring to the 1600-1680, but there was never a time for which that statement would be true. I donât know he was trying to say. > On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:07 PM, ron.ba...@rwbanks.com wrote: > > While I'm a big fan of Lundberg's body of work, we'll need to agree to > disagree which camp the belly/soundboard it fits into. For what it's worth, > violin makers commonly refer to their tops as bellies as well...taxonomy > among luthiers can be very generic. > > Let's also not forget that Lundberg made the comment on the banjo and the > importance of sustain, when discussing the early development of the lute. > He also said the following on page 30 of Historical Lute Construction: > "However, the need to sustain some notes, thereby adding a new dimension to > changes in rhythm and phrasing, became more and more important; so much so > that the main direction of tonal development through the Renaissance periods > and into the Baroque period was towards increasing sustain." (Lundberg, > Robert. Historical Lute Construction. Tacoma Washington: Guild of American > Luthiers, 2002) > > Sustain with lutes is at best a relative term. I've played some lutes that > were as efficient as a Quaker Oats box, and some that would easily sustain > for 3-4 seconds. What I was driving at was that unlike membrane tops, a > conscious effort was made to match the energy driven into the soundboard > (belly) with a system that provided a proper match to keep that energy from > dissipating too quickly. Plate tuning, bar shape, bar location, and > possibly even belly scooping contribute to final outcome...which might be a > much more complex set of subsystems than a tensioned membrane. > > Let's also consider that like guitars, and unlike banjo's, Renaissance and > later lute bellies are structural and act both in tension and compression. > Membrane tops on the other hand, require a self-supporting structure, and > function using tension. Unless turned into cuir bouilli, membranes really > can't act in compression. > > I'll not hazard a guess regarding the violin comments, as YMMV. The violin > community does that instrument enough damage seeking pseudoscience answers > to shortcut time and good craftsmanship. > > Seriously though, I appreciate your comments, and am glad to be a part of > this community. I certainly don't hold the source of all truth regarding > the lute, so I'll gladly call myself out when my ideas go into attic Strad > territory. > > Ron Banks > Fort Worth, TX To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room
Bob Lundberg likened the top (he called it belly) of the lute had more in common with a banjo than with the soundboard of a guitar, for instance. Sustain does not and probably never did factor into the plucked string sound of the lute. The sound is immediate and rich in overtones, but ephemeral and does not travel well. The carved top of a violin or other bowed instrument is structural and, as has already been stated, is ideal for scraping the string with an intermediary object. But the top of the lute, acting as a membrane, maximizes its colorful but intimate sound through the transverse barring. In short, the sound of the lute would no longer be the sound of the lute if the top was subjected to the harsh indignities of the horsehair bow or otherwise pressed into service to act as a soundboard. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of ron.ba...@rwbanks.com Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 4:23 PM To: 'ido7'; 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room Apologies to all, I mis-stated sharp attack/fast decay in citterns there, as a good cittern can have a sustain as long as a harpsichord. Ron Banks -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of ron.ba...@rwbanks.com Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 11:05 AM To: 'ido7' ; 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room Just a few thoughts that have been rattling around in my head this morning On instruments with tailpieces/combs/hitchpins and a floating bridge, you have to deal with some design trade-offs, such as: breakover angle; string after-length; neck angle; and downward pressure on the soundboard system...as well as the usual bridge movements due to plucking/bowing. The downward pressure problem in those instruments is often countered through strengthening the soundboard by: cambering (citterns); arching (violins/gambas); cranking (as in Neapolitan mandolins); or by using a tensioned flexible membrane instead of a soundboard (banjos). Glued bridges and floating bridges also don't work exactly the same...without altering the shape of the instrument to accommodate the downward push of the strings and the additional up/down motion of the bridge (when using afterlength/tailpieces/combs, etc.), a floating bridge doesn't work very well. While I'm obviously not a physicist, I've been around luthiery, traditional woodworking, and bowyery for a few years now. I suspect the lute's lack of string afterlength/tailpieces has partly to do with the efficiency of all the coupled systems in the lute. Floating bridges, tailpieces, extra string length, etc., add mass to a system that might not tolerate the additional mass very well. If you look at many instruments with tailpieces/ string afterlength, they often either require constant input from a bow or wheel to keep the string vibrating (gambas, violins, etc.), or are plectrum instruments that were adapted to have a sharp attack and fast decay (citterns, banjos, etc.). Also, string afterlength and tailpieces have additional resonant frequencies that can either kill sustain or deaden notes on the instrument through sympathetic vibration. Altering the shape of the soundboard by slightly scooping along its length may also slightly change how the string energy is transmitted through the soundboard (or at least how the soundboard reacts to that energy). When a soundboard is flat, some of the energy from the strings has to fight against wood in compression. Adding the scoop may change how much of the vibrating energy is fighting against compression, by forcing some of the wood to be in tension...changing how torque from the string/bridge and soundboard affect each other. Another consideration might be just how the soundboard responds to the bridge/string in a scooped top. Does the scooped top rebound from longitudinal torque/flexing faster, slower (or the same) as the flat one? Ron Banks Fort Worth, Texas -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of ido7 Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 10:09 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Plucking Room I don't think the main reason is the lack of frets. Fretless acoustic guitars, nylon strings or not, are both fretless and plucked and their sound is decent, both with regards to tone and sustain. On Sun, 30 Jun 2019, 16:59 Miles Dempster, <[1]miles.demps...@gmail.com> wrote: Violins, violas etc. don't have frets. When plucked (rather than bowed) the string vibration is dampened by the soft fingertip at the stopped end. I don't think that the sustain depends
[LUTE] Re: Asteroid heading for Earth! We're all doomed!
Context is always important. The only reason to crop is when a link deliberately placed in the content of a message is disabled and placed below. Navigating through the oceans of indented carats to find the live link can be annoying. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 6:07 PM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Asteroid heading for Earth! We're all doomed! I agree with Davidâs disagreement. And, obviously, with Wayneâs remarks about changing subject lines. > On Jun 28, 2019, at 9:06 AM, David Smith wrote: > > One reason, perhaps, that it has not changed is that some of us do not agree with the idea of removing all context of an email message. I get a lot of emails that have just the response and I have no clue what they are talking about. A bot to do this would be horrible since it would remove the possibility of seeing the information. > > Now, if every email had a link to the thread in the email archive that the email was part of, then removing context would be fine - I could easily go to the context in the archive. > > A contrarian view. By the way, I spent the last 50 years in the high-tech industry, have been on and led many standards bodies, currently must deal with a couple of hundred email messages a day (on just the one out of 5 email accounts I have), and sympathize with the large amount of content to wade through. But, context is so important that I am willing to deal with having more, rather than less, information in an email. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
I feel I must add a word of support for Julian Bream and his many contributions to the current lute revival. As a 20th-century pioneering concert artist, Julian Bream first and foremost raised the lute from a quaint closet instrument, best suited to historians and eccentrics, to an instrument capable of musical expression that reached and communicated to modern audiences. Yes, Julian Bream developed and employed his own characteristic technique. And yes, he used instruments that were modified from historical models to suit his needs as a touring concert artist. But it was through his musical chops that he exposed a broad audience to the depth and the possibilities of old music for the lute. Bream-bashing has been a popular sport among modern players who like to dwell on what is now considered proper lute technique, but many of these players for all intents and purposes dwell in glass houses. For instance, I still see an absurd number of modern players (who really should know better) using thumb-under technique on baroque lute and theorbo. This is patently unhistorical. In fact, it is well known that music from circa 1600 onward should be played with the thumb out. While the lute world is populated by an abundance of opinionated hobbyists, Julian Bream is a real musician, and probably still has chops most lute players will never attain. Let's give the man the respect he deserves. RA __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Gary Boye Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 11:23 AM To: Edward C. Yong Cc: Jurgen Frenz; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute Edward, Back in the '70s, there was a quip that "Julian Bream makes the lute sound like a guitar and the guitar sound like a lute." I think that came from guitarists who had no idea what the lute could sound like. He was pretty amazing in concert (on guitar, I didn't see him play lute), and quite a character off stage. In addition to "lute," he also played "vihuela" and "Baroque guitar" (quotes used intentionally!) . . . Can't say I'd recommend his early music recordings to students today though.. Gary On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: I have to agree. JB used his stardom to get the lute out there, even if it was a Frankenlute with nothing lute about it apart from the shape. Would anyone have paid attention to his lute playing if it hadn't ridden on the back of his guitarist reputation? Probably not. I recognise that many here were introduced to the lute via JB's efforts, but my own experience was rather different. My first exposure to lute music was an LP of Julian Bream playing Dowland in my school library, and that put me off the lute - it sounded like a classical guitar to me, so at 12, I didn't see the point. It wasn't until a year later that I heard Paul O'Dette and Jakob Lindberg's cd of Elizabethan lute duets and that changed my mind entirely - I wanted to play an instrument that sounded like theirs. While I have much respect for JB being a musician on the guitar and an 'early adopter', I fear I find his tone on the lute to be thin and hard, or âmetallic sharp' as Mr Frenz calls it. It's difficult for me to look past the tone and appreciate JB's musicianship on the lutewhen I find the tone unattractive - and this is my failing, not JB's. Edward > On 19 Jun 2019, at 12:40 PM, Jurgen Frenz <[2]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: > > Julian Bream was a vital part (I believe) of the lute revival 50 years ago by making the music public. On the downside of it he played guitar technique on it to the point of using singe strings on both the high G and D courses - it allowed him to play apoyando on the lute which is a big no-no. Hence his lute playing doesn't really sound like a lute. Also, at that time, it was common guitar technique to use sound differences to emphasize or mark formal sections by moving the right hand extremely close to the bridge, which creates a very metallic sharp sound. This has fallen out of favor on the guitar as well, I personally would qualify it as obnoxious, even more so on the lute. > If you like it, you may listen to Konrad Ragossnigs lute recordings, he sounds very much like Bream did. > > Best > Jurgen > > > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > > JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Lutes and brains
We have posted our Saturday quotations, this week on the habits of famous intelligensia. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1fx Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1fx To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Music Ed 101
We have posted our Saturday quotes, lutenist for president. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1fn Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1fn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Assumptions II
We have posted our Saturday quotations, this week on the meaning of a popular chanson. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1f8 Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1f8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Soap Talc, quick question
He must string his lute according to the principles of quantum field theory. Since this topic relates to string theory, has anyone tried strings from [1]Pure Corde? I'll also mention that I'm appreciating my custom wound silk basses from Alexander Rakov. They sound much better and fret truer than any gut basses I've ever used. RA Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:37:36 + To: dwinh...@lmi.net CC: mokot...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: john.mardi...@asu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Soap Talc, quick question 60,000 turns in 5 years? How often do you change your strings? That is 32.8 turns per day, 365 days a year. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) Titan Lab: [3]480-727-5651 NION UltraSTEM Lab: [4]480-727-5652 JEOL ARM 200 Lab: [5]480-727-5653 2010F Lab: [6]480-727-5654 Office: [7]480-965-7946 John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building Arizona State University [8]PO Box 871704 [9]Tempe, AZ 85287-1704 On Aug 13, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Dan Winheld [10]dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Laugh now; in 5 years you will need to hire a professional mechanic to inject a mixture of high-temp. Macadamia Nut Oil and ambergris to prevent micro-clutch seizure. Also a mandatory timing belt change for EACH PegHed after 60,000 turns- ain't cheap! On 8/13/2015 9:19 AM, Charles Mokotoff wrote: I am so enjoying ignoring this thread...says the lutenist with PegHeds ;) On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Martin Shepherd [1][11]mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Hill's is good, but it's dark brown, so for light-coloured pegs (e.g. lemonwood) I find I want to use something else. Dry soap and talc seems OK. Chalk can be gritty and may wear out your pegs and/or peg holes. I actually put quite a lot of peg paste on my pegs in the process of fitting them - it gets compacted into the pegbox and provides a really good basis for a smooth action. Wood-against-wood is not good. If anyone knows of a good recipe for a pale/transparent version of Hill's, please let us know. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 2. tel:408-921-3253 3. tel:480-727-5651 4. tel:480-727-5652 5. tel:480-727-5653 6. tel:480-727-5654 7. tel:480-965-7946 8. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 9. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 10. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 11. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.pure-corde.com/saitensaetze/lauten-harfen-gitarren/
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Aesthetics and lutes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotations - writing on musical aesthetics and lutes. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1eG Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1eG To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Aesthetics and Tromboncino
We have posted our Saturday quotations, examples of musical aesthetics as applied to the music of Tromboncino. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1ef Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1ef To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Aesthetics
We have posted our Saturday morning quotations, this week on aesthetics and proportion. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1e8 Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1e8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Strap
I agree with Chris that tying a strap to the pegbox is not an ideal choice. It's not as though you're spanking the plank a la some of our Telecaster brethren, but I've always felt a bit uneasy about undoing that glue joint. I once witnessed one of my students wrench his pegbox clean off while in the midst of learning the zen of tuning. Luthiers could probably wade into the discussion but my guess is that it would take very little force to break that glue joint. Especially if (unlike the characters in the videos) you play a proper lute with a reasonably robust string length. RA Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:07:12 -0400 To: spiffys84...@yahoo.com CC: csbarker...@att.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mokot...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Strap I was wondering same. On Jul 23, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Sterling Price spiffys84...@yahoo.com wrote: Just curious-- has anyone ever had or heard of a pegbox failing because of a strap? It should be fine if one ties the strap as close as possible to the joint. Sterling Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Chris Barker csbarker...@att.net wrote: I have noticed one recurring mistake that lutenists are making with straps. I'm no bigtime performer, just an amateur for fifty years, but I have built a number of Lutes and Vihuelas, and I see a problem some lutenists are making with their straps. Attaching a strap to a button that is pinned through the end of the lute and into the tail block is just fine. Attaching a strap to the pegbox is NOT. The pegbox is already under a great deal of tension from the strings. The added tension from a strap, no matter how slight, is just multiplying the chances for a difficulty to occur. It is always advisable to mount a button through the center stave and into the neck block less than an inch from the neck/body joint. On Vihuelas and Baroque and Renaissance Guitars the button should be pinned through the neck block centered and less than an inch from the heel, or into the heel itself if it is large enough. I have done this, and it works. Others have been happy with it as well. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Charles Mokotoff Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 6:44 AM To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Strap Thanks to everyone for the replies. What is clear from my looking the URLs over is that: 1. No one in the USA is selling these 2. They are a bit expensive for what you get However, I understand that some of these are quite beautiful and much nicer than anything I could probably cobble together. More importantly, I played around with my version some more and noticed that, yes, the lute is sitting stable on the RIGHT thigh, rather than in between the thighs with a footstool, (essentially I hold the instrument as if it were a classical guitar). This used to work in my younger years, not so much now. But, playing thumb out and using the strap, it still is uncomfortable and tends to put my hand over the rose or even closer to the neck. Perhaps just needs some time to adjust? Nigel North's strap configuration looks a bit different than what Paul uses: [1]https://youtu.be/c7wLjIF1N5o Thanks, again. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Charles Mokotoff [2]mokot...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone know where I could get this strap that Paul O'Dette is referring to in this interview? [1][3]https://youtu.be/tQ5vltWA0IY?t=15m27s I have tried jury-rigging something similar but it isn't working all that well for me. My lute looks about the same size as the instrument Paul is holding. Thanks for any words of wisdom on this, I've been wanting to sit differently for some time. -- References 1. [4]https://youtu.be/tQ5vltWA0IY?t=15m27s To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://youtu.be/c7wLjIF1N5o 2. mailto:mokot...@gmail.com 3. https://youtu.be/tQ5vltWA0IY?t=15m27s 4. https://youtu.be/tQ5vltWA0IY?t=15m27s 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Addendum
I feel the need to add a clarifying remark my statement that when a service is free then YOU are the product. This discussion list, hosted by Wayne Cripps and his servers, is in fact a freely available service that does not, to my knowledge, mine personal information from its users. It's been a while since we all thanked Wayne publicly for providing this forum, and for taking steps to protect its users. The lute-list is a much appreciated remnant of old-school egalitarianism. Thanks, Wayne. RA Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 14:58:03 + To: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; dwinh...@lmi.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: xx problem Ed, you'll recall that I made the suggestion off-list, and that I qualified the suggestion with the statement that I do NOT use the data-mining service. As far as I can tell, any positive uses the service may have had are negated by the nature and quantity of personal information it robs from public interactions and private mail accounts. As usual, when a service is free then YOU are the product. RA Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:28:39 +0900 To: dwinh...@lmi.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Subject: [LUTE] Re: xx problem x seems to be a fairly useless thing for me. The main use Ive made of it is to grab friends pictures to put in my address book. I never endorse people anymore because then I just get bothered by more and more messages. However, I did reach Terry through x sparked by Rons suggestion. On Jul 21, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: To Terry Schumacher and anyone else on xx- I no longer have an account on x. Please stop x (if possible) from bothering me with contact/endorsement other requests. Nothing personal, hostile, reclusive or anything; I just no longer have an account with x- it provides nothing of any personal or professional use to me. I can always be contacted through this elist if you do not have my personal email address. Thanks, Dan x -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Linkedin problem
Ed, you'll recall that I made the suggestion off-list, and that I qualified the suggestion with the statement that I do NOT use the data-mining service. As far as I can tell, any positive uses the service may have had are negated by the nature and quantity of personal information it robs from public interactions and private mail accounts. As usual, when a service is free then YOU are the product. RA Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:28:39 +0900 To: dwinh...@lmi.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Subject: [LUTE] Re: Linkedin problem LinkedIn seems to be a fairly useless thing for me. The main use Ive made of it is to grab friends pictures to put in my address book. I never endorse people anymore because then I just get bothered by more and more messages. However, I did reach Terry through LinkedIn sparked by Rons suggestion. On Jul 21, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: To Terry Schumacher and anyone else on Linkedin- I no longer have an account on linkedin. Please stop Linkedin (if possible) from bothering me with contact/endorsement other requests. Nothing personal, hostile, reclusive or anything; I just no longer have an account with Linkedin- it provides nothing of any personal or professional use to me. I can always be contacted through this elist if you do not have my personal email address. Thanks, Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- --
[LUTE] Re: Addendum
Indeed, Ron, many thanks from all of us. I wasn't here for its genesis but it has been a daily part of my life since about 2000. Amazing to think how much I've learned and all the people I've met! Thanks go to Wayne, of course ps Are we depriving a commercial listserver a living by flocking to this free daily concert of commentary? Now Sean, you should know better than bait the grump. Wrong forum. Wrong context. RA On Jul 21, 2015, at 9:39 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: I feel the need to add a clarifying remark my statement that when a service is free then YOU are the product. This discussion list, hosted by Wayne Cripps and his servers, is in fact a freely available service that does not, to my knowledge, mine personal information from its users. It's been a while since we all thanked Wayne publicly for providing this forum, and for taking steps to protect its users. The lute-list is a much appreciated remnant of old-school egalitarianism. Thanks, Wayne. RA Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 14:58:03 + To: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; dwinh...@lmi.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: praelu...@hotmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: xx problem Ed, you'll recall that I made the suggestion off-list, and that I qualified the suggestion with the statement that I do NOT use the data-mining service. As far as I can tell, any positive uses the service may have had are negated by the nature and quantity of personal information it robs from public interactions and private mail accounts. As usual, when a service is free then YOU are the product. RA Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:28:39 +0900 To: dwinh...@lmi.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Subject: [LUTE] Re: xx problem x seems to be a fairly useless thing for me. The main use Ive made of it is to grab friends pictures to put in my address book. I never endorse people anymore because then I just get bothered by more and more messages. However, I did reach Terry through x sparked by Rons suggestion. On Jul 21, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: To Terry Schumacher and anyone else on xx- I no longer have an account on x. Please stop x (if possible) from bothering me with contact/endorsement other requests. Nothing personal, hostile, reclusive or anything; I just no longer have an account with x- it provides nothing of any personal or professional use to me. I can always be contacted through this elist if you do not have my personal email address. Thanks, Dan x -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotations; elucidating remarks on amateurs and pros. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1cX Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1cX To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Rhetoric and gesture
We have posted our quotations for this week, along with a link to a new-old recording. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1cQ Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1cQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pickledherring Lute Book Upside-down pages
If you read the introduction and inventory, there is a helpful passage that says, Invert the book. RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 23:33:41 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Pickledherring Lute Book Upside-down pages I should have actually looked at my copy of Jane Pickledherrings Lute Book before I responded tp your last post, but I had to move what interior designers refer to as a whole bunch of stuff to get to it. Ive moved the whole bunch of stuff after reading: On Jul 5, 2015, at 7:53 PM, John Mardinly john.mardi...@asu.edu wrote: That thought occurred to me, but you would have to rip the pages out of the book. There are 12 consecutive pages upside down with respect to the rest of the book. Right you are, of course. I was thinking of an entirely different book. So never mind... I have lots of table music scores, and they have the two parts on the same page with just one part upside down; so that one player can read it while hanging from the chandelier trios have one part sideways, etc. So that one player can read it while nailed to the wall. My suspicion was that bookbinders are human and just goof occasionally. Thats certainly a plausible explanation. I havent dealt directly with bookbinders as such, so I cant form an opinion about what species they belong to, but the book is a manuscript, and looking at the book itself (see above) it seems just as likely that the person who wrote those pages (who was not Jane Pickledherring) may have started from a blank page well on in the book (or at the end) and went in the opposite direction, as if the end of the manuscript was his/her beginning, in which case upside down is in the eye of the beholder. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time
Sigh. There is no disguise. Spanish, Italian, French, or English; Pavanas, Pavannes, Pavins and Paduanas are all the same thing. Inconsistent orthography is a charming characteristic of the past and an unfortunate feature of the present. RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 05:09:06 +0200 To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time True. Pavanas as Paduanas in disguise seem to have been a Spanish speciality... Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Date : 05/07/2015 00:10 (GMT+01:00) A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:00 AM, jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Sure, but I can't remember pieces called Pavanes notated or played in triple time... You'll remember two obvious examples once someone mentions them: the sixth of Milan's pavanas, on page 82 of El Maestro (the 82nd page of my pdf version, anyway), and the Pavana my llana para taner on folio of Pisador's book, which is barred in two but played in three, and is known in other sources as the galliard La Gamba. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time
So, we are assuming that the earliest French publication of dance music for the lute is an anomaly? Was the triple-time Pavanne in Attaignant inserted into the publication by his (Spanish) enemies? I agree this issue is trifling, but Edward's original question wanted a more contextual answer. Best, RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 14:56:52 +0200 To: praelu...@hotmail.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time Countersigh. I simply meant that French Pavanes are very consistently in duple time. Sorry about that but it's a fact ; whereas some spanish Pavanas (e.g Milan, Pisador) are in triple time and are more reminiscent of Italian Padovane or Paduane, hence my in disguise implication. Full stop. No big deal here ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Date : 05/07/2015 14:33 (GMT+01:00) A : Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time Sigh. There is no disguise. Spanish, Italian, French, or English; Pavanas, Pavannes, Pavins and Paduanas are all the same thing. Inconsistent orthography is a charming characteristic of the past and an unfortunate feature of the present. RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 05:09:06 +0200 To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time True. Pavanas as Paduanas in disguise seem to have been a Spanish speciality... Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Date : 05/07/2015 00:10 (GMT+01:00) A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:00 AM, jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Sure, but I can't remember pieces called Pavanes notated or played in triple time... You'll remember two obvious examples once someone mentions them: the sixth of Milan's pavanas, on page 82 of El Maestro (the 82nd page of my pdf version, anyway), and the Pavana my llana para taner on folio of Pisador's book, which is barred in two but played in three, and is known in other sources as the galliard La Gamba. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time
Pascal ajoute `a Montaigne par Ciceron: Verite en deca des Pyrenees, mensonge au del`a. Merci pour vos conseils d'experts. En amitie, RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 16:58:42 +0200 To: praelu...@hotmail.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time Pas de problemes en ce qui me concerne ;-) .! Amicalement, Jean-Marie Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Date : 05/07/2015 16:01 (GMT+01:00) A : Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time So, we are assuming that the earliest French publication of dance music for the lute is an anomaly? Was the triple-time Pavanne in Attaignant inserted into the publication by his (Spanish) enemies? I agree this issue is trifling, but Edward's original question wanted a more contextual answer. Best, RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 14:56:52 +0200 To: praelu...@hotmail.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time Countersigh. I simply meant that French Pavanes are very consistently in duple time. Sorry about that but it's a fact ; whereas some spanish Pavanas (e.g Milan, Pisador) are in triple time and are more reminiscent of Italian Padovane or Paduane, hence my in disguise implication. Full stop. No big deal here ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Date : 05/07/2015 14:33 (GMT+01:00) A : Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time Sigh. There is no disguise. Spanish, Italian, French, or English; Pavanas, Pavannes, Pavins and Paduanas are all the same thing. Inconsistent orthography is a charming characteristic of the past and an unfortunate feature of the present. RA Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 05:09:06 +0200 To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time True. Pavanas as Paduanas in disguise seem to have been a Spanish speciality... Envoye depuis mon appareil Samsung Message d'origine De : howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Date : 05/07/2015 00:10 (GMT+01:00) A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:00 AM, jmpoirier2 jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Sure, but I can't remember pieces called Pavanes notated or played in triple time... You'll remember two obvious examples once someone mentions them: the sixth of Milan's pavanas, on page 82 of El Maestro (the 82nd page of my pdf version, anyway), and the Pavana my llana para taner on folio of Pisador's book, which is barred in two but played in three, and is known in other sources as the galliard La Gamba. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- --
[LUTE] Re: Questions for Monica
Well, given the subject heading of your message, I say let's send a deputation to Monica and ask for guidance. RA Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 02:53:47 + To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: john.mardi...@asu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Questions for Monica That thought occurred to me, but you would have to rip the pages out of the book. There are 12 consecutive pages upside down with respect to the rest of the book. I have lots of table music scores, and they have the two parts on the same page with just one part upside down; trios have one part sideways, etc. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) Titan Lab: [3]480-727-5651 NION UltraSTEM Lab: [4]480-727-5652 JEOL ARM 200 Lab: [5]480-727-5653 2010F Lab: [6]480-727-5654 Office: [7]480-965-7946 John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building Arizona State University [8]PO Box 871704 [9]Tempe, AZ 85287-1704 On Jul 5, 2015, at 5:23 PM, howard posner [10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2015, at 5:08 PM, John Mardinly [11]john.mardi...@asu.edu wrote: I just got the Jane Pickering lute book out of the Arizona State University music library (Boethius Press, Robert Spencer ed., 1985), and there are 12 pages bound upside down, although there are page numbers that are not upside down and would be if the tablature was not upside down. Has anybody else noticed/experienced this? I think you're looking at the pages that have the second part of a duet. They're printed upside down to allow the duet to be read by players sitting across a table from each other. To get on or off this list see list information at [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 2. tel:408-921-3253 3. tel:480-727-5651 4. tel:480-727-5652 5. tel:480-727-5653 6. tel:480-727-5654 7. tel:480-965-7946 8. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 9. x-apple-data-detectors://6/ 10. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 11. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Princes and a Pope
We have posted our Saturday quotations, interconnectedness according to two Princes and a Pope. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-1ci Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-1ci To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Paduane in Triple Time
There were indeed triple-time pavans. The most commonly known example is found in Attaignant, Dixhuit basses danses, Paris, 1529. You will recognize the piece in this recording: [1]https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/pavanne-2 RA Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 21:34:03 +0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Paduane in Triple Time Dear Collective Wisdom, I'm working on 'Une m'avoit promis' from Le Roy's Second Book for guitar, and rather puzzled. It's marked as 'Paduane' but has a 3, and is barred as three beats to the bar. Aren't pavanes always in duple time? Confused, Edward II?III? I.IIuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. aeCUReaaeuaeP:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/pavanne-2
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Monica, I'm flattered that you read our blog post at all. For the record, I am less concerned about noted scholars sharing the results of their work than I am about having to compete for gigs with amateur lutenists who actually pay to play. Thank you for sharing your impressive work in this format. Since academic publishing has gone down the tubes, the web has become a viable resource for making such important scholarship available. But I am a dinosaur who knows how to use a library, and I still like to read books. RA Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 11:27:02 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] My web site It is all free! Not sure that Ron would approve of that after reading his last post but not belonging to the musical establishment or being part of anyone's business model this is the only way I can make my efforts available - not to mention expose them to publis scrutiny. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference between the playing of a musician and the rote regurgitation of information written on the page. We all have different levels of abilities and understanding but, according my reading of the sources, it's all about convincing performances that capture the essence of the music. To my mind, the more closely spaced d-minor tuning seems to offer fewer opportunities for contrapuntal elaboration than does the old tuning. Strings tuned in fourths offer more possibilities than strings in thirds. Melodic decoration is just as easy in either tuning. As for improvisation in general, there is two really kinds: 1) ornamented divisions, and 2) harmonic extension and substitution. The cognoscenti always admire effect use of number 2. Dowland (1612) commented on number 1, with sharp words regarding blinde Division-making on the part of those ignorant in the science of music saying, ...let them remember that their skill lyeth not in their fingers endes I teach improvisation and always encourage the effective expression of intelligent musical ideas, giving a good result preference over which particular fingers are being used. Thanks again for broaching the topic, Rob. RA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:20 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Improvising Baroque Music I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
I thought perhaps you were finally coming around in your views on religion. Spreudian flip? Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 15:52:58 +0100 To: davidvanooi...@gmail.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music influenced by mass - I meant jazz! On 1 July 2015 at 15:51, Rob MacKillop [1]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Again, David, it's not about doing jazz or being influenced by mass. Steve just happens to be a jazz player. But he is on our territory, and getting amazing results by applying a few concepts and principles. Forget jazz - this topic has nothing to do with it. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:27, David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[11]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [12]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [13]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [14]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [15]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[17]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [18]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- References 1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 12. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 13. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 14. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 15. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 18. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ --
