[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be taken as a goal though, when so much better composers wrote so much better music. But it would be a great tool in understanding music, in gaining fluency on the dm-fingerboard and in playing more contrapuntal/more interesting continuo. Closest historical source I can think of is the Italian ms with written-out cadenses and 'licks' for theorbo. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 1 July 2015 at 14:49, Rob MacKillop [3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Hi All, Yes I agree improvisation is something to be introduced early on, not just as an advanced topic. To do it properly one really needs some knowledge of composition, which unfortunately many amateur lute players lack. I'm not thinking of anything very advanced here, just a very basic grounding in figured bass and counterpoint. I wonder if someone could be persuaded to write a little snippet each quarter for Lute News? Don't look at me, I'm too busy. Martin On 02/07/2015 10:31, Rob MacKillop wrote: Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be taken as a goal though, when so much better composers wrote so much better music. But it would be a great tool in understanding music, in gaining fluency on the dm-fingerboard and in playing more contrapuntal/more interesting continuo. Closest historical source I can think of is the Italian ms with written-out cadenses and 'licks' for theorbo. David *** David van Ooijen [1][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 1 July 2015 at 14:49, Rob MacKillop [3][4]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available:
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be taken as a goal though, when so much better composers wrote so much better music. But it would be a great tool in understanding music, in gaining fluency on the dm-fingerboard and in playing more contrapuntal/more interesting continuo. Closest historical source I can think of is the Italian ms with written-out cadenses and 'licks' for theorbo. David *** David van Ooijen [1][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 1 July 2015 at 14:49, Rob MacKillop [3][4]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4][5]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5][6]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6][7]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Improvisation teaches many things besides improvisation: compositional awareness, arranging and adapting skills, freedom on the instrument, confidence, musical expression (hopefully), a better involvement in what you're playing and in a roundabout way you'll become a better sight reader because you'll become better at recognizing structure in stead of just notes. Not 100% relevant to the discussion, but I touch upon improvisation not as a goal in itself but as a means in becoming a better musician in the series I wrote (am writing) on Zen and lute playing. The series is on-line in the Writings section of my website. Here's a direct link: [1]http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/lutedou8_onemoment_f.html David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 2 July 2015 at 10:31, Rob MacKillop [4]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1][5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal toolson the fingerboard as opposed to just on paperto do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be taken as a goal though, when so much better composers wrote so much better music. But it would be a great tool in understanding music, in gaining fluency on the dm-fingerboard and in playing more contrapuntal/more interesting continuo. Closest historical source I can think of is the Italian ms with written-out cadenses and 'licks' for theorbo. David *** David van Ooijen [1][2][6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2][3][7]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 1 July 2015 at 14:49, Rob MacKillop [3][4][8]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
True. As an improviser, even an accomplished one, to compare ones own improvisations against properly composed music is demotivating to say the least. Improvisation is more about the joy of playing than about good music and should be qualified accordingly. Interesting subject though. Lex Op 2 jul 2015, om 14:20 heeft Christopher Wilke het volgende geschreven: Garrison Keillor came through town recently with A Prairie Home Companion. (Keillor just named virtuoso mandolinist Chris Thile as his replacement, who is quite the improviser himself, that's another topic.) I'm not actually a huge fan of his style, but I found this interesting. Anyway, a local radio host interviewed him and asked, Many people probably don't realize how much of the show is ad libbed. After doing it for so many years, you probably feel pretty comfortable improvising, right? Keillor said, I never feel comfortable improvising. Just shame. A continual sense of shame that it could have been better. I think that just about sums up improvisation. Understand going in that no performance will be everything you want it to be. Just go for it! Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 2, 2015, 5:24:57 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Improvisation teaches many things besides improvisation: compositional awareness, arranging and adapting skills, freedom on the instrument, confidence, musical expression (hopefully), a better involvement in what you're playing and in a roundabout way you'll become a better sight reader because you'll become better at recognizing structure in stead of just notes. Not 100% relevant to the discussion, but I touch upon improvisation not as a goal in itself but as a means in becoming a better musician in the series I wrote (am writing) on Zen and lute playing. The series is on-line in the Writings section of my website. Here's a direct link: [1][2]http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/lutedou8_onemoment_f.h tml David *** David van Ooijen [2][3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 2 July 2015 at 10:31, Rob MacKillop [4][4]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1][5][5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Hi Martin, I agree that improvisation should be introduced early on. However, I disagree that it need be so formally codified with proper theory and counterpoint at the early stages. Students are often initially hesitant to improvise for fear of making mistakes and looking foolish. In fact, the pathway to becoming fluent at improv is accepting the concept that in any given situation there are no mistakes, simply a range of choices along a spectrum of quality. If one waits to introduce improv until the instrument is mastered and all the abstract rules are understood, the task becomes daunting. This is the perfect recipe for stiffness. The first step for a teacher is merely creating an encouraging, non-judgemental environment. The very beginning can and perhaps should be done entirely by ear. No need for any theory, music reading or even knowledge of the names of the notes. And there need not be any degree of technical mastery. I don't mean the one should drop students into an ocean of choices, but at first rather limit them to just a few easy notes to be played over simple chords (not yet even approaching the complexity of a ground). Afterwards I ask, Which did you like better? Did you like the sound of note X, Y or Z when I played chord 1?. 95% of the time, they already have the correct theoretical answer. I don't correct them if they have the wrong answer, although I may isolate the example and have them listen carefully again. Maybe the ear is simply being trained at this point or maybe they're developing a personal style which I don't want to discourage. Later on I show them licks (or motifs as we would say). Then it becomes, Which lick did you like with chord 1? With chord #2? To be clear: I don't mean that anything goes in improv. The theory comes later, and regardless of one's personal preferences, it is important to eventually understand the components of music as practiced by most. Best, Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 2, 2015, 5:14:15 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi All, Yes I agree improvisation is something to be introduced early on, not just as an advanced topic. To do it properly one really needs some knowledge of composition, which unfortunately many amateur lute players lack. I'm not thinking of anything very advanced here, just a very basic grounding in figured bass and counterpoint. I wonder if someone could be persuaded to write a little snippet each quarter for Lute News? Don't look at me, I'm too busy. Martin On 02/07/2015 10:31, Rob MacKillop wrote: Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Garrison Keillor came through town recently with A Prairie Home Companion. (Keillor just named virtuoso mandolinist Chris Thile as his replacement, who is quite the improviser himself, that's another topic.) I'm not actually a huge fan of his style, but I found this interesting. Anyway, a local radio host interviewed him and asked, Many people probably don't realize how much of the show is ad libbed. After doing it for so many years, you probably feel pretty comfortable improvising, right? Keillor said, I never feel comfortable improvising. Just shame. A continual sense of shame that it could have been better. I think that just about sums up improvisation. Understand going in that no performance will be everything you want it to be. Just go for it! Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 2, 2015, 5:24:57 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: Improvisation teaches many things besides improvisation: compositional awareness, arranging and adapting skills, freedom on the instrument, confidence, musical expression (hopefully), a better involvement in what you're playing and in a roundabout way you'll become a better sight reader because you'll become better at recognizing structure in stead of just notes. Not 100% relevant to the discussion, but I touch upon improvisation not as a goal in itself but as a means in becoming a better musician in the series I wrote (am writing) on Zen and lute playing. The series is on-line in the Writings section of my website. Here's a direct link: [1][2]http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/lutedou8_onemoment_f.h tml David *** David van Ooijen [2][3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 2 July 2015 at 10:31, Rob MacKillop [4][4]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the comments. Yes, Steve Herberman is dealing mainly with contrapuntal devices. How well they they would transfer to Dm tuning remains to be discovered. I have seen many harpsichord players rip through similar devices many times, and have been duly impressed. I once joked to a harpsichord player Now do it a semitone higher, and without batting an eyelid, he did...Steve Herberman and Ted Greene are the only guys I have seen who can do that on a guitar, which is closer to the lute than a harpsichord. The thing is, Steve has worked out a system. I might buy the course to see how he does it. So much for contrapuntal improv. What about the topic of introducing improv ideas and concepts to post beginners? I'd like to see improv becoming more normal in our learning process, not something to put off until you have hopefully mastered the instrument (as that will never happen). For this to happen, we need educational material at stepped levels. Something for our lute societies, perhaps? Rob On 2 July 2015 at 07:05, David van Ooijen [1][5][5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: This time a reply after watching the video (test question: What's the colour of Steve's cat?). What I saw was Steve playing written-out formulae in a baroque style, cycling through many keys. What Chris referred to as 'don't be afraid to copy' and 'learning many licks', or similar wording, anyway, the usual jazz teaching method. In the end Steve plays a written-out single-line exercise and a written out contrapuntal exercise. Whether a student will be able to use this in his improvisation to go beyond the formulae, is up to the student, but he will be given the harmonic and contrapuntal tools on the fingerboard as opposed to just on paper to do so. Yes, it would be great to have this for dm-lute, and I don't think it would be all that much work to make. Some years ago I made a few beginners' lessons for playing continuo on dm-lute (on-line on my website for those interested). There are historical dm continuo lessons by Perrine and in the Prague University Library Ms. II Kk 51. But these are all harmony oriented, and Steve's approach is focused on contrapuntal cadences and formulae. Keyboard players (notably organ players) are still trained in improvising contrapuntal compositions. I have a classical guitar colleague who liked to improvise baroque counterpoint. To call it fugues would be stretching it, but his contrapuntal fantasies were convincing enough. I don't think it should be taken as a goal though, when so much better composers wrote so much better music. But it would be a great tool in understanding music, in gaining fluency on the dm-fingerboard and in playing more contrapuntal/more interesting continuo. Closest historical source I can think of is the Italian ms with written-out cadenses and 'licks' for theorbo.
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Not to forget the great Ted Greene: [1]http://youtu.be/Zkuo2384ZN4 Rob [2]www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 13:49, Rob MacKillop [3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/Zkuo2384ZN4 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
I’m not sure of the value, but I do know that Pat O’B would have some comments on his left hand technique. “Pronate more” and “your 4th finger is stuck in the land where notes don’t live”!! On Jul 1, 2015, at 8:49 AM, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Rob, Thanks for being this up. I did my minor at Eastman in jazz guitar, thinking it might also help me with improvising early music. The results have been mixed. I included some improvised sections on my latest baroque lute album. The most extended stretches are in the varied repeats I made for the slow movements in the Bach BWV 995 suite. In those situations there is a clear model coming from the composer's original. This is actually not so far from what jazzers do. I'm reminded of Thelonious Monk's admonition that a soloist should always be mentally hearing the head while soloing over the changes. I also included several cadenzas, which are more free form but involve developing a motif. Ultimately, jazz studies haven't been very helpful to me in baroque improvising. I learned about the process, especially in not being afraid to copy! (Jazzers spend countless hours copying licks from recordings.) However, the idioms are just so different that few things transferred without major adjustment. This is to be expected. It's kind of like learning Hungarian and being surprised that it doesn't directly apply to taking up Spanish. Musical styles have changed so much in the past hundreds of years, why would one expect that there be one universally applicable approach to improvisation? For those interested, my album is available from CD Baby at the link below. Unfortunately, the samples their algorithm has selected don't include much of the improvisations mentioned above. http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 1, 2015, 8:53:14 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn elearningo play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [3]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [4]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 4. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Danny, that's just dumb. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:25, Daniel Shoskes [1]kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure of the value, but I do know that Pat O'B would have some comments on his left hand technique. Pronate more and your 4th finger is stuck in the land where notes don't live!! On Jul 1, 2015, at 8:49 AM, Rob MacKillop [2]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][3]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][4]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [5]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [6]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com 2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 3. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 4. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 5. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 6. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 2. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Again, David, it's not about doing jazz or being influenced by mass. Steve just happens to be a jazz player. But he is on our territory, and getting amazing results by applying a few concepts and principles. Forget jazz - this topic has nothing to do with it. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:27, David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][2]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][3]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][4]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][5]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][6]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][9]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[10]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [11]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [12]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [13]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [14]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 3. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 4. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 5. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 6. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 10. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 11. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 12. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 13. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 14. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference between the playing of a musician and the rote regurgitation of information written on the page. We all have different levels of abilities and understanding but, according my reading of the sources, it's all about convincing performances that capture the essence of the music. To my mind, the more closely spaced d-minor tuning seems to offer fewer opportunities for contrapuntal elaboration than does the old tuning. Strings tuned in fourths offer more possibilities than strings in thirds. Melodic decoration is just as easy in either tuning. As for improvisation in general, there is two really kinds: 1) ornamented divisions, and 2) harmonic extension and substitution. The cognoscenti always admire effect use of number 2. Dowland (1612) commented on number 1, with sharp words regarding blinde Division-making on the part of those ignorant in the science of music saying, ...let them remember that their skill lyeth not in their fingers endes I teach improvisation and always encourage the effective expression of intelligent musical ideas, giving a good result preference over which particular fingers are being used. Thanks again for broaching the topic, Rob. RA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:20 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Improvising Baroque Music I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
influenced by mass - I meant jazz! On 1 July 2015 at 15:51, Rob MacKillop [1]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Again, David, it's not about doing jazz or being influenced by mass. Steve just happens to be a jazz player. But he is on our territory, and getting amazing results by applying a few concepts and principles. Forget jazz - this topic has nothing to do with it. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:27, David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[11]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [12]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [13]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [14]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [15]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[17]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [18]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- References 1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 12. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 13. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 14. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 15. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 18. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
I thought perhaps you were finally coming around in your views on religion. Spreudian flip? Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 15:52:58 +0100 To: davidvanooi...@gmail.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music influenced by mass - I meant jazz! On 1 July 2015 at 15:51, Rob MacKillop [1]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Again, David, it's not about doing jazz or being influenced by mass. Steve just happens to be a jazz player. But he is on our territory, and getting amazing results by applying a few concepts and principles. Forget jazz - this topic has nothing to do with it. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:27, David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][10]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[11]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [12]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [13]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [14]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [15]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[17]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [18]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- References 1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 11. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 12. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 13. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 14. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 15. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 18. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ --
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Wow, Rob, this doesn't seem like you. Calling Danny dumb? Lobbing the you're just promoting your stuff grenade at me? The bulk of my message discussed my own experiences as improvisor in a jazz and baroque idioms. I don't believe it was at all inappropriate to mention my recorded efforts in this regard, especially as I specifically discussed the influence that a modern improvisor (Monk) played in the development of that example. If I had written a book on the subject, would you expect me to avoid mentioning it? That others have also commented on the jazz aspect shows that I wasn't off base. If you wished to confine the thread merely commentary on the video linked, you should have been more specific in your original wording. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 7/1/15, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015, 10:49 AM Chris, I'm very happy to provide you the opportunity to promote your latest disc, which is wonderful. More power to you. However, my discussion is more about the concepts Steve uses, which are not jazz, and how we should be studying them on a baroque lute. I'm not sure from what you say that you have had a chance to look at the video. His whole approach is something we could apply to the baroque lute, or Italian archlute, AS WE ARE LEARNING the instrument. It doesn't have to be super advanced. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:15, Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Rob, Thanks for being this up. I did my minor at Eastman in jazz guitar, thinking it might also help me with improvising early music. The results have been mixed. I included some improvised sections on my latest baroque lute album. The most extended stretches are in the varied repeats I made for the slow movements in the Bach BWV 995 suite. In those situations there is a clear model coming from the composer's original. This is actually not so far from what jazzers do. I'm reminded of Thelonious Monk's admonition that a soloist should always be mentally hearing the head while soloing over the changes. I also included several cadenzas, which are more free form but involve developing a motif. Ultimately, jazz studies haven't been very helpful to me in baroque improvising. I learned about the process, especially in not being afraid to copy! (Jazzers spend countless hours copying licks from recordings.) However, the idioms are just so different that few things transferred without major adjustment. This is to be expected. It's kind of like learning Hungarian and being surprised that it doesn't directly apply to taking up Spanish. Musical styles have changed so much in the past hundreds of years, why would one expect that there be one universally applicable approach to improvisation? For those interested, my album is available from CD Baby at the link below. Unfortunately, the samples their algorithm has selected don't include much of the improvisations mentioned above. [2]http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 Chris [3]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 1, 2015, 8:53:14 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn elearningo play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 3. https://yho.com/footer0 4. http
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Chris, I'm very happy to provide you the opportunity to promote your latest disc, which is wonderful. More power to you. However, my discussion is more about the concepts Steve uses, which are not jazz, and how we should be studying them on a baroque lute. I'm not sure from what you say that you have had a chance to look at the video. His whole approach is something we could apply to the baroque lute, or Italian archlute, AS WE ARE LEARNING the instrument. It doesn't have to be super advanced. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:15, Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Rob, Thanks for being this up. I did my minor at Eastman in jazz guitar, thinking it might also help me with improvising early music. The results have been mixed. I included some improvised sections on my latest baroque lute album. The most extended stretches are in the varied repeats I made for the slow movements in the Bach BWV 995 suite. In those situations there is a clear model coming from the composer's original. This is actually not so far from what jazzers do. I'm reminded of Thelonious Monk's admonition that a soloist should always be mentally hearing the head while soloing over the changes. I also included several cadenzas, which are more free form but involve developing a motif. Ultimately, jazz studies haven't been very helpful to me in baroque improvising. I learned about the process, especially in not being afraid to copy! (Jazzers spend countless hours copying licks from recordings.) However, the idioms are just so different that few things transferred without major adjustment. This is to be expected. It's kind of like learning Hungarian and being surprised that it doesn't directly apply to taking up Spanish. Musical styles have changed so much in the past hundreds of years, why would one expect that there be one universally applicable approach to improvisation? For those interested, my album is available from CD Baby at the link below. Unfortunately, the samples their algorithm has selected don't include much of the improvisations mentioned above. [2]http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 Chris [3]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 1, 2015, 8:53:14 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn elearningo play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 3. https://yho.com/footer0 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Good topic! It would be great to have a method for aspiring improvisers on baroque music (any instrument, lute, guitar, theorbo...). I do have a method by Pascale Boquet and Gerard Rebours (Fuzeau edition), however it seems more of a collection of grounds and a few advices than a true method on improvisation. Jazz methods are more helpful on this matter even if the language is not fit to the Baroque, the approach I think is valid. The same applies to basso-continuo, you have the numbers and the chords and... what else could you do that Weiss, Kapsperger and all the others would do? It's not just about mechanics, there is the style issue as well. 2015-07-01 11:27 GMT-03:00 David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][2]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][3]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][4]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][5]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][6]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][9]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[10]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [11]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [12]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [13]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [14]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba. Doutor em PrA!ticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 3. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 4. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 5. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 6. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 10. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 11. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 12. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 13. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 14. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Seems like the original link is strongly related to Jazz. The person doing the video is a jazz musician. The site it is sold on is dedicated to Jazz. So, it is not unnatural to draw a link between the topic of baroque improvisation and jazz improvisation. Steve Heberman has clearly done that. Of course it is a different language than jazz but seems highly related in thought process and technique. I was wondering what you thought of Gaspar Sanz's Instrucción de Música with respect to this topic. He seems to spend a fair amount of time on both figured bass and on harmonic transitions that is intended to be used for improvising on the baroque guitar. At least this is something written by a person in the period for a related instrument. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Rob MacKillop Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 7:52 AM To: David van Ooijen Cc: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music Again, David, it's not about doing jazz or being influenced by mass. Steve just happens to be a jazz player. But he is on our territory, and getting amazing results by applying a few concepts and principles. Forget jazz - this topic has nothing to do with it. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:27, David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: I enjoy improvising continuo and I enjoy improvising jazz. But I find when I mix these I tend to bring in style elements from one to the other. That's not always appreciated. In Renaissance music I enjoy improvising short solo pieces, nothing big, nothing serious but something appropriate for the spot in the programme. I enjoy the freedom and the spontaneity. Results vary, obviously, but improve with practise. David On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, Rob MacKillop [1][2]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][2][3]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][3][4]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [4][5]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [5][6]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [7][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [8][9]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:[10]robmackil...@gmail.com 2. [11]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 3. [12]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 4. [13]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. [14]http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 8. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 3. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 4. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 5. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 6. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 9. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 10. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 11. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 12. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 13. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 14. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Thank you Rob for both of these links. They look quite interesting. I have looked at the All Things Baroque and am going through the class he sells and look forward to going through the Ted Greene material as well. Improvisation is my current edge to get through and this is very timely. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Rob MacKillop Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 5:58 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music Not to forget the great Ted Greene: [1]http://youtu.be/Zkuo2384ZN4 Rob [2]www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 13:49, Rob MacKillop [3]robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/Zkuo2384ZN4 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 3. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 4. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 5. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 6. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 7. http://www.robmackillop.net/ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
You've misread me again, Chris. I was genuine in saying I was happy for you to promote your recording, especially as you do some improv. Relax. I'm very pro what you do. Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:29, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, Rob, this doesn't seem like you. Calling Danny dumb? Lobbing the you're just promoting your stuff grenade at me? The bulk of my message discussed my own experiences as improvisor in a jazz and baroque idioms. I don't believe it was at all inappropriate to mention my recorded efforts in this regard, especially as I specifically discussed the influence that a modern improvisor (Monk) played in the development of that example. If I had written a book on the subject, would you expect me to avoid mentioning it? That others have also commented on the jazz aspect shows that I wasn't off base. If you wished to confine the thread merely commentary on the video linked, you should have been more specific in your original wording. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 7/1/15, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music To: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2015, 10:49 AM Chris, I'm very happy to provide you the opportunity to promote your latest disc, which is wonderful. More power to you. However, my discussion is more about the concepts Steve uses, which are not jazz, and how we should be studying them on a baroque lute. I'm not sure from what you say that you have had a chance to look at the video. His whole approach is something we could apply to the baroque lute, or Italian archlute, AS WE ARE LEARNING the instrument. It doesn't have to be super advanced. Rob On 1 July 2015 at 15:15, Christopher Wilke [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Rob, Thanks for being this up. I did my minor at Eastman in jazz guitar, thinking it might also help me with improvising early music. The results have been mixed. I included some improvised sections on my latest baroque lute album. The most extended stretches are in the varied repeats I made for the slow movements in the Bach BWV 995 suite. In those situations there is a clear model coming from the composer's original. This is actually not so far from what jazzers do. I'm reminded of Thelonious Monk's admonition that a soloist should always be mentally hearing the head while soloing over the changes. I also included several cadenzas, which are more free form but involve developing a motif. Ultimately, jazz studies haven't been very helpful to me in baroque improvising. I learned about the process, especially in not being afraid to copy! (Jazzers spend countless hours copying licks from recordings.) However, the idioms are just so different that few things transferred without major adjustment. This is to be expected. It's kind of like learning Hungarian and being surprised that it doesn't directly apply to taking up Spanish. Musical styles have changed so much in the past hundreds of years, why would one expect that there be one universally applicable approach to improvisation? For those interested, my album is available from CD Baby at the link below. Unfortunately, the samples their algorithm has selected don't include much of the improvisations mentioned above. [2]http://www.cdbaby.com/m/cd/christopherwilke12 Chris [3]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At Jul 1, 2015, 8:53:14 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn elearningo play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1][4]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2][5]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. [7]http
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Lots of interesting comments from a few contributors. There seem to be a number of issues. 1. Original source material, for lute, baroque guitar, certainly, but other instruments too. All that must be looked at and absorbed as best as possible. 2. Stylistic details - what we do for Weiss we should probably not do for Robert de Visée. We have to be careful here, while at the same time expressing ourselves. 3. Decoration of given material, especially on repeats. Most of us would work this out in advance for a recording or important gig, but relatively free decoration should be explored at home. 4. Improvised composition. This could be a Prelude, for example, or an entirely new piece within a dance style, or an abstract style such as a fugue. It is here that Steve Herberman, I think, gives us ideas, albeit on a seven-string guitar, that we could explore on baroque lutes or arch lutes. I don't see this approach anywhere in the lute or baroque guitar literature, though I'd be happy to be pointed towards an original source which helps me play a fugue, for instance. There are moments in that video where Steve closes his eyes, and really improvises in two parts, in a baroque style. Let's be honest, there are not many of us who could do that on our lutes. 5. I guess my overall point is that there is no one book today (that I am aware of) that teaches baroque lute improvisation, or live composition. Yet Bach, Weiss, de Visée, etc, probably improvised every day of their professional lives. I would like to see more of it, but also support materials for those who would like to give it a try. Thoughts? Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:15, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference between the playing of a musician and the rote regurgitation of information written on the page. We all have different levels of abilities and understanding but, according my reading of the sources, it's all about convincing performances that capture the essence of the music. To my mind, the more closely spaced d-minor tuning seems to offer fewer opportunities for contrapuntal elaboration than does the old tuning. Strings tuned in fourths offer more possibilities than strings in thirds. Melodic decoration is just as easy in either tuning. As for improvisation in general, there is two really kinds: 1) ornamented divisions, and 2) harmonic extension and substitution. The cognoscenti always admire effect use of number 2. Dowland (1612) commented on number 1, with sharp words regarding blinde Division-making on the part of those ignorant in the science of music saying, ...let them remember that their skill lyeth not in their fingers endes I teach improvisation and always encourage the effective expression of intelligent musical ideas, giving a good result preference over which particular fingers are being used. Thanks again for broaching the topic, Rob. RA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:20 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Improvising Baroque Music I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a class online called Going For Baroque. You have to buy the class, but an overview video is available: [1]http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ It would be really interesting to transfer his approach to the Dm lute. One would really get to know the instrument and tuning well, and discover many contrapuntal finger movements which could be used in improvising fugues or dance movements. I'd like to know your thoughts after watching the video. Rob MacKillop [2]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. http://youtu.be/u9oZ5Us0sfQ 2. http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
Excellent summation, Rob. While your examples make perfect sense to me, I find that most people who manage to wrap their fingers around a lute come from a point of view that takes comfort in a re-creative art, stopping short of the total commitment it takes to go beyond making beautiful sounds on an expensive instrument. There is nothing wrong with the level of competence that time and opportunity permits but, as you point out, just not dropping the instrument is only the tip of the iceberg. To learn improvisation on an instrument as technically difficult as the lute requires study that goes far beyond just playing the original notes well. But we all know for certain that the surviving music that was written down is only a miniscule amount of the music that was played, and most historical players who attained a professional standard were also composers. The longer I'm in this game, the more I see very few completely dedicated professional players with the work ethic to become conversant in the language of historical lute music to the point where they might compose extempore. Excepting you and McFarlane. RA CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:43:03 +0100 To: praelu...@hotmail.com Lots of interesting comments from a few contributors. There seem to be a number of issues. 1. Original source material, for lute, baroque guitar, certainly, but other instruments too. All that must be looked at and absorbed as best as possible. 2. Stylistic details - what we do for Weiss we should probably not do for Robert de Visee. We have to be careful here, while at the same time expressing ourselves. 3. Decoration of given material, especially on repeats. Most of us would work this out in advance for a recording or important gig, but relatively free decoration should be explored at home. 4. Improvised composition. This could be a Prelude, for example, or an entirely new piece within a dance style, or an abstract style such as a fugue. It is here that Steve Herberman, I think, gives us ideas, albeit on a seven-string guitar, that we could explore on baroque lutes or arch lutes. I don't see this approach anywhere in the lute or baroque guitar literature, though I'd be happy to be pointed towards an original source which helps me play a fugue, for instance. There are moments in that video where Steve closes his eyes, and really improvises in two parts, in a baroque style. Let's be honest, there are not many of us who could do that on our lutes. 5. I guess my overall point is that there is no one book today (that I am aware of) that teaches baroque lute improvisation, or live composition. Yet Bach, Weiss, de Visee, etc, probably improvised every day of their professional lives. I would like to see more of it, but also support materials for those who would like to give it a try. Thoughts? Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:15, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference between the playing of a musician and the rote regurgitation of information written on the page. We all have different levels of abilities and understanding but, according my reading of the sources, it's all about convincing performances that capture the essence of the music. To my mind, the more closely spaced d-minor tuning seems to offer fewer opportunities for contrapuntal elaboration than does the old tuning. Strings tuned in fourths offer more possibilities than strings in thirds. Melodic decoration is just as easy in either tuning. As for improvisation in general, there is two really kinds: 1) ornamented divisions, and 2) harmonic extension and substitution. The cognoscenti always admire effect use of number 2. Dowland (1612) commented on number 1, with sharp words regarding blinde Division-making on the part of those ignorant in the science of music saying, ...let them remember that their skill lyeth not in their fingers endes I teach improvisation and always encourage the effective expression of intelligent musical ideas, giving a good result preference over which particular fingers are being used. Thanks again for broaching the topic, Rob. RA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:20 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Improvising Baroque Music I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
There are some method books, just not for the lute. By far the most relevant to your post would be The Division-Viol, The Art of Playing Ex tempore upon a Ground... (CHELYS Minuritum Artificio Exornata, etc.) by Christopher Simpson. Two edtions, 1659 1667. Chris gives you the works, from soup to nuts everything in between if you have the patience and will to truly study it and go through it step by step. I certainly didn't (when I had a little time to practice the bass viol) but I had my whacks at it. It would take years of hard daily training to fully realize every lesson he put into that book. I recommend it highly. You will also learn enough c clefs to make your head spin, too. Near the end, Simpson allows as to how some people may never become fluent in free improv, but they can arrange enough material in advance to still be considered fine artists, especially in technical interpretive musicianship- just not as exciting as when playing in a hot jam session. Also Ganassi; Fontegara (recorder) and the Regola Rubertina (mostly viol, but a little lute thrown in). Dan On 7/1/2015 1:43 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Lots of interesting comments from a few contributors. There seem to be a number of issues. 1. Original source material, for lute, baroque guitar, certainly, but other instruments too. All that must be looked at and absorbed as best as possible. 2. Stylistic details - what we do for Weiss we should probably not do for Robert de Visée. We have to be careful here, while at the same time expressing ourselves. 3. Decoration of given material, especially on repeats. Most of us would work this out in advance for a recording or important gig, but relatively free decoration should be explored at home. 4. Improvised composition. This could be a Prelude, for example, or an entirely new piece within a dance style, or an abstract style such as a fugue. It is here that Steve Herberman, I think, gives us ideas, albeit on a seven-string guitar, that we could explore on baroque lutes or arch lutes. I don't see this approach anywhere in the lute or baroque guitar literature, though I'd be happy to be pointed towards an original source which helps me play a fugue, for instance. There are moments in that video where Steve closes his eyes, and really improvises in two parts, in a baroque style. Let's be honest, there are not many of us who could do that on our lutes. 5. I guess my overall point is that there is no one book today (that I am aware of) that teaches baroque lute improvisation, or live composition. Yet Bach, Weiss, de Visée, etc, probably improvised every day of their professional lives. I would like to see more of it, but also support materials for those who would like to give it a try. Thoughts? Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:15, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference between the playing of a musician and the rote regurgitation of information written on the page. We all have different levels of abilities and understanding but, according my reading of the sources, it's all about convincing performances that capture the essence of the music. To my mind, the more closely spaced d-minor tuning seems to offer fewer opportunities for contrapuntal elaboration than does the old tuning. Strings tuned in fourths offer more possibilities than strings in thirds. Melodic decoration is just as easy in either tuning. As for improvisation in general, there is two really kinds: 1) ornamented divisions, and 2) harmonic extension and substitution. The cognoscenti always admire effect use of number 2. Dowland (1612) commented on number 1, with sharp words regarding blinde Division-making on the part of those ignorant in the science of music saying, ...let them remember that their skill lyeth not in their fingers endes I teach improvisation and always encourage the effective expression of intelligent musical ideas, giving a good result preference over which particular fingers are being used. Thanks again for broaching the topic, Rob. RA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:49:20 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Improvising Baroque Music I've long thought that there was something missing from the way most of us learn to play baroque music, whether on lute or guitar. Some of us have studied figured bass playing, it's something I particularly enjoyed doing, though I haven't done any for years. But rarely do we step beyond that practice, and I believe that only a very, very small percentage of us are happy improvising baroque counterpoint in Dm tuning. I was fascinated to learn that one of my jazz guitar heroes, Steve Herberman, teaches a
[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
The form of improvisation that I have found most helpful in my own development is one that I have not otherwise seen addressed, which is improvising on larger forms, which we might call extempore arrangement, or perhaps the cocktail pianist routine. In most of my recent chamber music concerts, when I have been asked to supply a theorbo solo, rather than playing music by Kappy, Picci, Castaldi, or de Viseè, I have instead extemporized a version of one or another of these numbers from the hit parade (things many of us know backwards and forwards): Amarilli mia bella, a Lachrimae pavane, Mark how the blushful morn, Lascia ch'io pianga, les voix humaines, or Merula's Foll'é ben, with a few more numbers always in the pipeline. I find it more satisfying and more interesting than ground bass improvisation, though I do a lot of that on renaissance lute (plus a few similar extempore arrangement things, mostly Dowland songs). Eventually I intend to do the same on baroque lute. My ! method is to pick something I know ridiculously well, that I've accompanied to the point of nausea, find an idiomatic key to play it in, and then play it by ear over and over till it sounds good. The rule is that the notes are never written down, and while I don't try to play markedly different ornaments or diminutions every time, I also don't try to play 'em the same unless I come up with something really cool. Always preface with an improvised prelude. And make a desultory stab at some stylistic integrity. Sent from my Ouija board On Jul 1, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Excellent summation, Rob. While your examples make perfect sense to me, I find that most people who manage to wrap their fingers around a lute come from a point of view that takes comfort in a re-creative art, stopping short of the total commitment it takes to go beyond making beautiful sounds on an expensive instrument. There is nothing wrong with the level of competence that time and opportunity permits but, as you point out, just not dropping the instrument is only the tip of the iceberg. To learn improvisation on an instrument as technically difficult as the lute requires study that goes far beyond just playing the original notes well. But we all know for certain that the surviving music that was written down is only a miniscule amount of the music that was played, and most historical players who attained a professional standard were also composers. The longer I'm in this game, the more I see very few completely dedicated professional players with the work ethic to become conversant in the language of historical lute music to the point where they might compose extempore. Excepting you and McFarlane. RA CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:43:03 +0100 To: praelu...@hotmail.com Lots of interesting comments from a few contributors. There seem to be a number of issues. 1. Original source material, for lute, baroque guitar, certainly, but other instruments too. All that must be looked at and absorbed as best as possible. 2. Stylistic details - what we do for Weiss we should probably not do for Robert de Visee. We have to be careful here, while at the same time expressing ourselves. 3. Decoration of given material, especially on repeats. Most of us would work this out in advance for a recording or important gig, but relatively free decoration should be explored at home. 4. Improvised composition. This could be a Prelude, for example, or an entirely new piece within a dance style, or an abstract style such as a fugue. It is here that Steve Herberman, I think, gives us ideas, albeit on a seven-string guitar, that we could explore on baroque lutes or arch lutes. I don't see this approach anywhere in the lute or baroque guitar literature, though I'd be happy to be pointed towards an original source which helps me play a fugue, for instance. There are moments in that video where Steve closes his eyes, and really improvises in two parts, in a baroque style. Let's be honest, there are not many of us who could do that on our lutes. 5. I guess my overall point is that there is no one book today (that I am aware of) that teaches baroque lute improvisation, or live composition. Yet Bach, Weiss, de Visee, etc, probably improvised every day of their professional lives. I would like to see more of it, but also support materials for those who would like to give it a try. Thoughts? Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:15, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference
