[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Mathias Rösel]

>Also worth mentioning that Mace's compositions aren't that bad either.

Yes, seconded!

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Links for some lute pictures again

[Mathias Rösel]

The third should read

https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13872
(Molenaer)

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Andreas Schlegel
> Gesendet: Samstag, 13. Oktober 2012 15:49
> An: lute list
> Betreff: [LUTE] Links for some lute pictures again
> 
> Sorry - the last numbers were killed ;-)
> 
> https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13896
> https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13875
> https://www.karlundfaber.de/de/kataloge/online-katalog/index.php?id=13896
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Albrecht Werl lute book

[Mathias Rösel]

   Dear everybody,


   Currently, I'm copying some pieces from the Werl ms. into Fronimo, viz.
   anonymous pieces in the Flat tuning that do not appear in other sources
   (unicum). Has somebody been into this before? Is somebody interested in
   this stuff or willing to cooperate?


   Best wishes,


   Mathias

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Lutz Kirchhof about the lute as a romantic instrument

[Mathias Rösel]

>I guess Lutz point would be the old lutenist anticipated (some) ideas
>of the romantic period.
>I don't completely agree - because the concept of the "genius" is
>missing (just to name one element) but it seems true that lute players
>of the period partly followed concepts which were not common at that
>time and maybe could be called "romantic".

Not convinced. But, well, there's no need to, because we'll never know,
anyway, how, and if at all, lutenists of old, viewed nativeness, nature,
genius, remoteness, emotionalism  and so on, unless they have explicitly
written about those topics. And they haven't, as far as I'm aware.

And I hasten to add that Playing music by the Bayreuth pack in an empfindsam
manner, is entirely okay with me. But that's a matter of our modern approach
IMO.

Mathias




>Best regards
>Thomas
>Am 01.11.2012 22:03, schrieb Mathias Roesel:
> 
>  concepts of romanticism. Romanticism and its concepts as such may be
> obsolete today. Yet they may be instrumental in describing the way modern
> people conceive HIP lutes and their music.
> 
> Thank you, Tho 



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[LUTE] Re: A pair of transitional pieces

[Mathias Rösel]

> 2) A very unusual chaconne by P. Gaultier:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6LyGjekKtM
> 
> Is this the only piece existing that not only frets notes on the 9th
course but
> actually has slurred runs?

That's part of Pierre Gaultier's personal style of composition, and it
distinguishes him from his colleagues who published with Ballard in the same
year in Paris. Some say, he took over that technique from Italian guitarists
or theorbo players (mind you, he published 1638 in Rome). 

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: A pair of transitional pieces

[Mathias Rösel]

> I have retuned my 11 course baroque lute into the world of transitional
tuning
> and have a couple of fun and interesting pieces to share:
> 
> 1) A branle ("brawl") by Mesangeau:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skpVdkRQSd8
> 
> 2) A very unusual chaconne by P. Gaultier:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6LyGjekKtM


Very nice recording!

As for x, Gaultier points out that it starts on the main note, not with an
upper appogiatura: "Quand vous verraz cette croix x vous tremblerez mettant
un doid sur la lettre et tremblez d'un autre."

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: A pair of transitional pieces

[Mathias Rösel]

> It does feel strange to play that way, especially during the 7-6
suspensions. Maybe
> my ear is totally off, but I think I hear both Sigrun Richter and Anthony
Bailes play it
> as an upper appogiatura in their recordings.

That may be so. One does it out of habit, I suppose. A habit of hearing and
playing, that is. Baroque trills start from the upper auxiliary note (and
the earth is a disk).

> Maybe the main note is played so
> quickly and softly that I missed it. I'll try it "from below" and see what
I can make of it.

There are a few horrible videos that one may relate to for this matter:

http://youtu.be/jAcHLUkIfDE
http://youtu.be/lv19DBYQzBA 
http://youtu.be/8bQ8o6zP9TM 
http://youtu.be/m8MjEV9B66U 
http://youtu.be/CvwueqWPx7U
http://youtu.be/GkDSywfh5XY

Mathias




> On Nov 19, 2012, at 5:56 PM, Mathias Rösel 
wrote:
> 
> >> I have retuned my 11 course baroque lute into the world of
> >> transitional
> > tuning
> >> and have a couple of fun and interesting pieces to share:
> >>
> >> 1) A branle ("brawl") by Mesangeau:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skpVdkRQSd8
> >>
> >> 2) A very unusual chaconne by P. Gaultier:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6LyGjekKtM
> >
> >
> > Very nice recording!
> >
> > As for x, Gaultier points out that it starts on the main note, not
> > with an upper appogiatura: "Quand vous verraz cette croix x vous
> > tremblerez mettant un doid sur la lettre et tremblez d'un autre."
> >
> > Mathias
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Rolled chords

[Mathias Rösel]

>Here's an proposal: How about rolling
>when it's appropriate and not rolling when it's not?

Martyn alluded to that point already when he said that rolling may take away
from the power of musical rhetoric. That applies e.g. to the matter of
séparé in French baroque lute music. You can read everywhere that séparé
means arpeggiating or rolling. Then, Perrine weighed in with his version of
what séparé might imply (you may guess that I'm not convinced as regards
music by lutenists who had passed some 50 years earlier). Close study of the
respective places will reveal what is appropriate and what is not. My
current take on séparé more often than not is a short note on the beat,
followed by a dotted note (not the other way round).

Mathias




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[LUTE] Far OT

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Collected Wisdom,

Does someone recognize the following intro to a pop song from the 80ies? The
tab was given to me as a riddle, and I seem to remember the song, but I
can't for the life of me remember exactly. Any help appreciated.

|---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|--:|
r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---|-r-a-r-a-r-d--:|
d---|-a---|-d---|-d---d:|
r---|-|-a---|-r---c:|
a---|-r---|-|-a---a-c--:|
|-|-|--:|

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Far OT

[Mathias Rösel]

Oh my, what a mess. Sorry for inconvenience. I try to improve it.


-|---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|--:|

-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---|-r-a-r-a-r-d--:|

-d---|-a---|-d---|-d---d:|

-r---|-|-a---|-r---c:|

-a---|-r---|-|-a---a-c--:|

|-|-|--:|

Does someone recognize this intro to a pop song from the 80ies? The tab was
given to me as a riddle, and I seem to remember the song, but I can't for
the life of me remember exactly. Any helf appreciated.

Mathias







> Dear Collected Wisdom,
> 
> Does someone recognize the following intro to a pop song from the 80ies?
The tab
> was given to me as a riddle, and I seem to remember the song, but I can't
for the life
> of me remember exactly. Any help appreciated.
> 
> |---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|--:
> |---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-||
> r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---|-r-a-r-a-r-d--:
> r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---||
> d---|-a---|-d---|-d---d:
> d---|-a---|-d---||
> r---|-|-a---|-r---c:
> r---|-|-a---||
> a---|-r---|-|-a---a-c--:
> a---|-r---|-||
> |-|-|--:
> |-|-||
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Re: Far OT

[Mathias Rösel]

   Amazing. Thank you, Reinier!

   Von: Reinier de Valk 
   An: Mathias Roesel 
   Cc: Lute List 
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Far OT
   Datum: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 03:24:30 +0100

 Dear Mathias,
 It's actually from the nineties: "Narcotic", by Liquido. It's
 probably
 not a bad thing that you forgot that tune...
 [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIOJq5UGfg0&feature=fvst
 Best wishes,
 Reinier
 2012/12/2 Mathias Roesel <[2]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
 Oh my, what a mess. Sorry for inconvenience. I try to improve it.
 -|---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|--
 :|
 -r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---|-r-a-r-a-r
 -d--:|
 -d---|-a---|-d---|-d---d
 :|
 -r---|-|-a---|-r---c
 :|
 -a---|-r---|-|-a---a
 -c--:|
 |-|-|---
 ---:|
 Does someone recognize this intro to a pop song from the 80ies? The
 tab was
 given to me as a riddle, and I seem to remember the song, but I
 can't
 for
 the life of me remember exactly. Any helf appreciated.
 Mathias
 > Dear Collected Wisdom,
 >
 > Does someone recognize the following intro to a pop song from the
 80ies?
 The tab
 > was given to me as a riddle, and I seem to remember the song, but
 I
 can't
 for the life
 > of me remember exactly. Any help appreciated.
 >
 >
 |---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|---
 ---
 :
 > |---a-|-r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-||
 >
 r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---|-r-a-r-a-r-
 d--:
 > r-a-r-a-r-a-r-a-|-d-r-d-r-d-r-d---|-d---||
 >
 d---|-a---|-d---|-d---d-
 ---:
 > d---|-a---|-d---||
 >
 r---|-|-a---|-r---c-
 ---:
 > r---|-|-a---||
 >
 a---|-r---|-|-a---a-
 c--:
 > a---|-r---|-||
 >
 |-|-|---
 ---:
 > |-|-||
 >
 > Mathias
 >
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
 > admin/index.html
 --
 References
 1. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8FOJq5UGfg0&feature=fvst
 2. [2]mathias.roe...@t-online.de
 3. [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-


   --

References

   1. 
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L4242-7391TMP.html?ctlreferer&to=aHR0cDovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS93YXRjaD92JUMzJThGT0pxNVVHZmcwJmZlYXR1cmU9ZnZzdA%3D%3D
   2. javascript:void(0)
   3. 
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L4242-7391TMP.html?ctlreferer&to=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jcy5kYXJ0bW91dGguZWR1L353YmMvbHV0ZS0%3D

[LUTE] Re: Latin and lute.

[Mathias Rösel]

> According to Wikipedia, Latin was the language of scholarship, science,
and
> internation communication until around 1725.
> 
> However, I've not seen much of Latin in lute music.

There is e.g. Judenkünig's Utilis et compendiaria introductio, Janowska's
treatise on lutes (including his famous quote on lutes and roofs in Prague),
there are several prefaces (Mertel, van den Hove, Rude etc), and there is
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_%28instrumentum_musicum%29 (end of
shameless self-promotion).

Mathias




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[LUTE] Turkish Theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

Thanks to Roman who pointed me to this marvellous recording:
http://youtu.be/MBZlqVndhW8 (Marin Marais, La Reveuse, arranged for the
theorbo, percussion and Chinese violin).

According to the blurb, the theorbo is a Turkish instrument, but don't let
that remarks prevent you from listening!

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?

[Mathias Rösel]

> if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of
interpreting
> German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note
after
> longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in
this way
> express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie?
> 
> An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!):
> 
>|\   |\\   |\
>|| |
>|| |
> __a_a__a__c__d___
> _|__|
> _|__bb__|
> __c__|__cc__| ...
> _|__|
> _|__|
> 
> 
> So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote
that you should
> not repeat the pluck!

If you look at the final clause (5 t 5), you will see that Newsidler knew
and wrote held notes. I take that as an argument against the notion that he
wrote a note but didn't mean it to be played but to be held. Another
argument might be that if you omit the "repeated" note you can hardly
explain why you hit the following treble note with the index, and that is an
important matter in his method. So I vote for playing the "repeated" note.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Origins of bowing.

[Mathias Rösel]

Bowing as an educated way of greeting someone else is already mentioned in
the Bible. That dates back way beyond antiquity. Yet as for musicians
receiving applause with a bow, that would imply that musicians were
acknowledged as kind of emancipated artists considered worthy to receive
applause.

Just a guess, but I don't think John Dowland was used to bowing when he
played for his employers (landgrave Moritz, king Christian). Emancipation of
artists came up during the 17th century, if I'm not mistaken. So perhaps
lutenists like Jacques Gaultier or François Dufaut in London would receive
applause with a bow (mid-17th century).

Perhaps the question should rather be put this way: When became applause for
artistic performances fashionable?

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Satoh - de Visée

[Mathias Rösel]

(Y) if ya know wadda mean >:^)

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Valéry Sauvage
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:57 AM
> To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Satoh - de Visée
> 
>A beautiful one to see on YT :
> 
> 
>[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
> 
> 
> 
>V.
> 
> 
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Petrus Fabricius

[Mathias Rösel]

>Here are some additional references, although surely Ralf Jarchow's
>facsimile and edition will supersede these references.
> 
> 
> 
>Zofia Steszewska, ed., Tance polskie z tabulatur lutniowych, ii, Zrodla
>do historii muzyki (Warsaw, 1966).  8 pieces and one facs.
> 
>Johannes Bolte, "Aus dem Liederbuch des Petrus Fabricus," Alemannia 17
>(1889).
> 
>Jenny Dieckmann, Die in deutscher Lautentabulatur ueberlieferte Taenze
>(Kassel, 1931).  List of dances and some concordances.
> 
>Jan Olof Ruden, "Per Brahes Visbok" (master's thesis, U. of Uppsala,
>1962)



There are quite a few literal transcriptions in Dagobert Bruger's method for
the lute (1926) as well.

Mathias




>- Original Message -
>From: "Josef Berger" <[1]harpolek...@gmail.com>
>To: <[2]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:19 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] Petrus Fabricius
> 
>>   Hello everybody,
>>   does there exist any complete edition of the Petrus Fabricius
>lutebook
>>   (DK-Kk, MS Thott 4ADEG841), or is the only way to play his lute
>music
>>   an access to the facsimile in Copenhagen?
>>   I know don't know of any editions other than the following:
>>   Bolte (1887) dealt with the songs which Fabricius notated in staff
>>   notation, but not with his instrumental tunes notated in German
>lute
>>   tablature.
>>   Povl Hamburger (1972) published some transcribed tunes and two
>pages in
>>   facsimile.
>>   Wohlfahrt (1989) was concerned only with the poetry in the lutebook
>and
>>   not with the music.
>>   Best wishes from southern Sweden (quite close to Copenhagen,
>actually)
>>   Josef Berger
>>   ---
>>   References:
>>   Johannes Bolte (1887): Das Liederbuch des Petrus Fabricius.
>Jahrbuch
>>   des Vereins fA 1/4r niederdeutsche Sprachforschung XIII. pp.55-68 +
>>   Musikbl.
>>   Povl Hamburger (1972): Aoeber die InstrumentalstA 1/4cke in dem
>>   Lautenbuch des Petrus Fabricius. in: Festskrift Jens Peter Larsen.
>>   1902-14 VI-1972.
>>   Wilhelm Hansen Musik-Forlag, KA,benhavn. pp.35-46.
>>   Roland Wohlfahrt (1989): Die Liederhandschrift des Petrus
>Fabricius,
>>   Kgl. Bibl. Kopenhagen, Thott. 4aDEG841. Eine
>Studentenliederhandschrift
>>   aus dem frA 1/4hen 17. Jahrhundert und ihr Umfeld. MA 1/4nster, 712
>pp.
>>   --
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:harpolek...@gmail.com
>2. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Tablature fonts for Fronimo

[Mathias Rösel]

--=_NextPart_001_000B_01CE94E5.242B1D30
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Is someone here familiar with creating fonts for the Fronimo software?
Francesco said he cannot do it himself for lack of time, but he'd be willing
to support efforts.

The thing is, I'd like to have fonts for the angelique. The signs for the
bass courses differ from lute bass course signs, though. The new set of
fonts could be based on French theorbo tablature, if I'm not mistaken.
Anyone?

Here ist what it’s about:

Four major manuscripts (Bethune, Brno A.3329, Federhofer, Monin) run the
following signification which IMHO is the most important:

7th:  a below system

8th:  _a_ (underlined)

9th:  /a

10th: //a

11th: ///a

12th: a

13th: /a

14th: 4

15th: 5

16th: 6

17th: 7

Two further manuscripts (Schwerin 640, Kassel 104.8) have it the following
way in the French manner, i.e. below the system (Kassel has only a few
measures, but Schwerin comprises 98 pages).

7th:   7

8th:   8

9th:   9

10th: 10

11th: 11

12th: 12

13th: 13

14th: 14

15th: 15

16th: 16

17th: 17

One print (Jakob Kremberg, 1689) has it this way:

7th:  a below system

8th:  _a_ (underlined)

9th:  /a

10th: //a

11th: ///a

12th: 4

13th: 5

14th: 6

15th: 7

16th: 8

(Summarized from

http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html)


--=_NextPart_001_000B_01CE94E5.242B1D30
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; 
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>Is someone here familiar with creating 
fonts for the Fronimo software? Francesco said he cannot do it himself for lack 
of time, but he'd be willing to support efforts.The thing is, I'd like to have fonts for the angelique. The signs 
for the bass courses differ from lute bass course signs, though. The new set of 
fonts could be based on French theorbo tablature, if I'm not mistaken. 
Anyone?Here ist what it’s 
about:Four major manuscripts 
(Bethune, Brno A.3329, Federhofer, Monin) run the follo!
 wing signification which IMHO is the most 
important:7th:  a below 
system8th:  _a_ 
(underlined)9th:  
/a10th: 
//a11th: 
///a12th: 
a13th: 
/a14th: 
415th: 
516th: 
617th: 
7Two further manuscripts (Schwerin 
640, Kassel 104.8) have it the following way in the French manner, i.e. below 
the system (Kassel has only a few measures, but Schwerin comprises 98 
pages).7th:   
78th:&n!
 bsp;  89th:&nbs!
 p;  910th: 
1011th: 
1112th: 
1213th: 
1314th: 
1415th: 
1516th: 
1617th: 
17One print (Jakob Kremberg, 1689) 
has it this way:7th:  a below 
system8th:  _a_ 
(underlined)9th:  
/a10th: 
//a11th: 
///a12th: 
413th: 
514th: 
615th!
 : 716th: 
8(Summarized from http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html";>http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html)
--=_NextPart_001_000B_01CE94E5.242B1D30--

--

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[LUTE] Re: more music on my web site

[Mathias Rösel]

Thank you VERY much for sharing this!

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Nancy Carlin
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 8:06 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] more music on my web site
> 
> I cleaned up the papers collecting on my music stand and have added some
more
> music to my web site
> 
> www.GroundsandDivisions.info
> 
> The new pieces includes a couple more Courantes from Cz-Pnm G.IV.18
> (Rettenwert Lute Book) and a new Spanish Pavan (Elizabethan Tunes).
> Enjoy.
> Nancy
> 
> --
> Nancy Carlin
> Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
> 
> PO Box 6499
> Concord, CA 94524
> USA
> 925 / 686-5800
> 
> www.groundsanddivisions.info
> www.nancycarlinassociates.com
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Time to work on how we look?

[Mathias Rösel]

> On 08/20/2013 01:22 AM, William Samson wrote:
> > Interesting new study showing that visual cues are more important
that
> > the sound of a performance in how people judge it:
> 
> There must be some truth to it.  For instance, I find it difficult to
watch this performer:
> 
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d44jKuw3Nlw
> 
> The unwarranted and discomforting 'passion' in his face is enough to usurp
any
> beauty I might have otherwise found in his music.

One of the reasons why the lute and other string instruments were considered
superior to, say, wind instruments in the 17th and 18th centuries was that
lute players weren't forced to contort their faces (as is someone who blows
into a flute).

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Time to work on how we look?

[Mathias Rösel]

> > One of the reasons why the lute and other string instruments were
> > considered superior to, say, wind instruments in the 17th and 18th
> > centuries was that lute players weren't forced to contort their faces
> > (as is someone who blows into a flute).
> 
> Yes, but...
> 
> > On 08/20/2013 01:22 AM, William Samson wrote:
> > Interesting new study showing
> > visual cues are more important [than]
> > the sound of a performance in how people judge it.
> 
> I don't believe there are many 17th and 18th century listeners left to
appreciate our
> appropriately vapid mugs. Despite appearances, most modern musicians still
play for
> living audiences, with all their incorrect ideas about what they like.

I for one feel connected to the old ones in that I cannot stand watching
musicians who seem to either suffer from pain or have sex with their
instruments.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Time to work on how we look?

[Mathias Rösel]

> > I have to agree that the visual "choreography" takes away from the
enjoyment.
> Weather it's the fellow playing F C d M (incidentally with some wrong
notes and
> rhythms) who looks like his dog just died, or Tatiana, who looks for all
the world like
> she is experiencing some sort of sexual gratification.
> 
> And what's wrong with sexual gratification?  Music is no place for
prudery; I say we
> need more orgasms, not fewer.

Sorry, beg to differ (I for one do not want to see it, although I enjoyed
listening to her playing). Watch this and let us know if you maintain what
you wrote:

http://youtu.be/8x6xp9FaEbU 

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Time to work on how we look?

[Mathias Rösel]

> IMHO, Vivica is a pale and slightly angry immitator of - the rightly
beloved - Cecilia
> Bartoli  - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4It44mYw2I
> For those who like me like to compare performances of the same piece by
different
> performers on Spotify or YouTube, I cannot make up my mind as to which is
the best
> Ombra mai fu: Cecilia
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m225lOjGTg) or Philippe
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inl7-Fl77lA).
> Everyone else comes far, far behind. Facially and otherwise.

Yes, agreed, anyone else comes far behind. Both of them save their faces.
This time, I fear, Cecilia won.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute MS & Vallet psalms]

[Mathias Rösel]

   Dear Arthur, dear Jean-Marie,


   Thank you very much ! May research continue.


   Mathias




   From: Arthur Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net]
   Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:07 PM
   To: Jean-Marie Poirier; Mathias Roesel; 'Lute List'; 'Baroque Lute
   List'
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute MS &
   Vallet psalms]


   I meant to mention the Goy/Schlegel list.  It's also in Boetticher's
   RISM volume with a rather poor description.   The Vallet prints seem to
   be unknown to Souris in the modern edition of Vallet, rev. Goy. But the
   Ms. is cited.   So it's n ot entirely unknown.   ajn

   - Original Message -

   From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>

   To: "Arthur Ness" <[2]arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "Mathias Roesel"
   <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>; "'Lute List'"
   <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Baroque Lute List'"
   <[5]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:28 AM

   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute MS &
   Vallet psalms]


   > Dear Arthur again,
   >
   > Sorry, my mistake, the ms; IS in the Quellenlist by Goy and Schlegel
   as :
   >
   > #31-US-R 186
   > ROCHESTER, Sibley music library (US-R), Vault M 140 V 186 S, 1640 ca
   >
   > Not a lute UFO after all ;-) !
   >
   > Best wishes,
   >
   > Jenan-Maie
   >
   >
   > --
   >
   >>   Dear Jean-Marie and Matthias,
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>   There's not much that I can add.The manuscript is bound with
   Livre
   >>   1 and Livre 2 of Nicolas Vallet *Secret des Muses* (Amsterdam
   1618,
   >>   1619), and *[21] Psalmen Davids* (1619), second editions made from
   >>   plates of the first editions.  Purchased 1933 from the great
   Berlin
   >>   music antiquarian Leo Liepmannssohn, perhaps (I'm not certain) at
   the
   >>   auction of the Werner Wolffheim collection.*  The Ms seems to be
   from
   >>   the Vallet circle, since livre 2 contains concordances: Ballet (p.
   >>   1)=Ms p. 36a and La Vallette (p. 16)=Ms p. 53 ("Valette").   I
   suspect
   >>   that a search for concordances might bring forth pieces in
   **Haslemere
   >>   II B 18 and Prague IV G 18.
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>   *Head librarian Barbara Duncan attended the auction with lots of
   >>   money.  Sibley's father was a millionaire founder of Western
   Union!
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>   **Formerly in the library of Brahms' friend and biographer Max
   Kalbeck
   >>   (Vienna).   It was never in the Prussian State Library (*pace*
   >>   Boetticher).
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>   Arthur
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>   - Original Message -
   >>   From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[1][6]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
   >>   To: "Arthur Ness" <[2][7]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
   >>   Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:30 PM
   >>   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute
   MS &
   >>   Valet psalms]
   >>   > Thank you so much Arthur for these new links ! The second one
   (XXI
   >>   Pseaulmes) is very circumstancial with the Vallet anniversay in
   Utrecht
   >>   in the next few days ;-) !
   >>   > The first link (Lute MS) is quite a mine of interesting pieces
   in
   >>   "accords nouveaux". Do you have more information about this
   particular
   >>   manuscript ?
   >>   >
   >>   > Thank you and best wishes,
   >>   >
   >>   > Jean-Marie
   >>   > --
   >>
   >>- Original Message -
   >>
   >>   From: "Mathias Roesel" <[3][8]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
   >>   To: "'Arthur Ness'" <[4][9]arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "'Lute List'"
   >>   <[5][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Baroque Lute List'"
   >>   <[6][11]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>   Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 4:24 PM
   >>   Subject: RE: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute
   MS &
   >>   Valet psalms]
   >>
   >>   Great, thank you so much, Arthur! That "Lute music, in tablature"
   on
   >>   first glance is news to me. Is there somewhere more information to
   be
   >>   found about it?
   >>   Mathias
   >>   > -Original Message-
   >>   > From: [7][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [[13]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   >>   On Behalf Of
   >>   > Arthur Ness
   >>   > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 3:26 PM
   >>   > To: Lute List; Baroque Lute List
   >>   > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New UR Research Publications [Lute
   MS &
   >>   Valet
   >>   > psalms]
   >>   >
   >>   >
   >>   > - Original Message -
   >>   > From: <[8][14]nore...@ur.rochester.edu>
   >>   > To: <[9][15]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
   >>   > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:01 AM
   >>   > Subject: New UR Research Publications for dates: 08/19/2013 -
   >>   08/20/2013
   >>   >
   >>   >
   >>   > New publications are available in the UR Research collections
   you
   >>   have
   >>   > subscribed to
   >>   >
   >>   > New publications in Musical Scores: 2
   >>   >
   >>   > Publication Name

[LUTE] Re: chord fingering

[Mathias Rösel]

Hans Newsidler has no barre in his tablatures. In the 1st part of his 1536
print, he offers fingerings that would imply forefinger b2, middle b3, ring
c4, little d5 for this chord.

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Lex van Sante
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:41 PM
> To: lute mailing list list
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: chord fingering
> 
> I do the same but for ease of mind I've positioned the second and third
course just a
> little bit closer to one another.
> The challenge is to play it in such a way that also the empty first course
sounds
> clear.
> Happy luting!
> 
> Lex
> Op 9 sep 2013, om 13:02 heeft Rob MacKillop het volgende geschreven:
> 
> >   I only ever use just the first finger for the first fret. Aim for the
> >   middle...
> >   Rob
> >
> >   On 9 September 2013 11:56, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
> >   wrote:
> >
> >I would like to know too :)
> >I think the answer is a partial barree with the first finger,
> > avoiding
> >fouling the first string. For me this needs a generous space
> > between
> >first and second courses.
> >Any other suggestions?
> >Bill
> >Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
> >
> >
> __
> >From: Edward C. Yong <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com>;
> >To: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
> >Subject: [LUTE] chord fingering
> >Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 10:19:49 AM
> >
> >  Hi collective wisdom of lutenists!
> >  is there a preferred fingering for this:
> >  _0_
> >  _1_
> >  _1_
> >  _2_
> >  _3_
> >  ___
> >  everything feels awkward :(
> >  Thanks everyone!
> >  Edward Chrysogonus Yong
> >
> >[1][4]edward.y...@gmail.com
> >
> >  To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
> >[2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >--
> > References
> >1. javascript:return
> >2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >   --
> >
> > References
> >
> >   1. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
> >   2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
> >   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >   4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
> >   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

Strap and leather cloth is all I need. The chitarrone does not rest on the
leg, though, but on the outer side of the right leg.

My two cents.

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Daniel Shoskes
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:55 AM
> To: Lute List
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. Time to start experimenting!
> 
> On Oct 3, 2013, at 3:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson 
> wrote:
> 
> >   Dear Bill,
> >   Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up
> >   and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a
modern
> >   'classical' guitarist.  Further, many early extant instruments have
> >   fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the
end
> >   of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the
> >   pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting
on
> >   the strap end.
> >   By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco
> >   player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist-  ie
> >   inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is
> >   something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to
> >   avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward.
> >   No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the
heavy
> >   coats of earlier players served much the same purpose.
> >   It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that
> >   the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing
> >   large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the
> >   theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost
> >   horizontal position as they play the lute and who soon find it much
> >   easier when it is held more upright.
> >   regards,
> >   Martyn
> >
> >   From: William Samson 
> >   To: Lute List ; Daniel Shoskes
> >   
> >   Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013, 22:42
> >   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
> > Interesting question. Do we know how it was done back in the day?
> > Bill
> > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
> >
> __
> > From: Daniel Shoskes <[1]kidneykut...@gmail.com>;
> > To: Lute List <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
> > Subject: [LUTE] Thigh support for theorbo
> > Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 9:35:50 PM
> > Dear Theorbistas: has anyone ever tried one of the classical guitar
> > rests/cushions/supports that many guitarists now use instead of a
> > footstool for their theorbo? Some have suction cups or clamps which
I
> > wouldn't be thrilled to use on my instrument, but some, like the
> > Dynarette don't.
> > I'm still struggling to find an ergonomic position and the "sitting
> >   on
> > the strap" options just don't fit my body.
> > Thanks
> > Danny
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > --
> >   References
> > 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >   --
> >
> > References
> >
> >   1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
> >   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> >   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 

[LUTE] Re: Madrigals for female voices

[Mathias Rösel]

>ps I meant 'know of any'!
> 
>On 2 November 2013 15:58, Helen Atkinson
><[1]helen.atkin...@wordstone.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>Dear Luters
>I'm hoping to find arrangements of madrigals for 3 and 4 female voices
>with entabulated lute accompaniment. Am I likely to be disappointed or
>does anyone of any?
>Many thanks
>Helen

That would be modern arrangements, as the term lute accompaniment implies
notions of chords. You can, however, easily find intabulations of whole
madrigals in many 16th century prints. Madrigals with 3 to 4 female voice is
another cup of tea, I'd say. You will perhaps want to look up some five- or
six-part madrigals, which often have SSAT(T)B. But I'm not aware of
madrigals for up to 4 female voice, exclusively.

HTH

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I

[Mathias Rösel]

> Dear Howard,
> I must confess, that the logic of Your Arguments is always a very great
pleasure, a
> light in the darkness of December.
> Thank You
> Andreas (Berlin)

Wholeheartedly seconded

Mathias



> Am 20.12.2013 19:54, schrieb howard posner:
> > On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Christopher Wilke
wrote:
> >
> >>   This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis
> >>that early music performance practice today is really a modern
> >>fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic
> >>preferences to past music.
> > This would make sense only if there were a single 20th-century aesthetic
> preference.
> >
> > Taruskin's usual lucidity rather deserted him here, floating away in a
sea of
> abstract nouns.  It all falls apart when you try to be specific about it.
For example, he
> famously suggested (in his article in Early Music magazine around 1983, if
not in
> Text and Act, a book I've never succeeded in slogging all the way through)
that
> Emma Kirkby's straight delivery had as much to do with Joan Baez as with
being
> historically informed, an odd notion in my view, since I always found
Baez' vibrato too
> intense for my taste.  But even assuming Taruskin chose a good example,
why did
> Kirkby emulate Baez, rather than some other singer who was popular in the
sixties
> and early seventies?  She could have chosen to sing like Elvis Presley,
Frank
> Sinatra, Rod McKuen, Mick Jagger, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin (wouldn't you
love to
> hear Jagger and Joplin sing "Sweet Kate"?), John Lennon, Andy Williams,
Merle
> Haggard, Birgit Nilsson or Beverly Sills, all of whom represented current
aesthetic
> prefere!
>  nc!
> >   es.  Why not any of them as the model for a "modern fabrication"?  I'm
inclined to
> go for the obvious explanation that answers questions rather than raising
them:
> people in early are doing what they think they're doing.
> >
> > The important thing about "20th-century aesthetic preferences to past
music" is
> that the 20th century preferred past music.  Audiences turned out for
music of the
> 18th and 19th centuries more than for the new stuff.  That had never
happened
> before.  Classical music, and the symphony orchestra in particular, became
> museums preserving music of previous generations, and the logical and
inevitable
> outgrowth of that phenomenon was that some of the curators wanted to do it
"right,"
> just like the curators who cleaned the old cloudy varnish off the
Rembrandt painting
> called the "Night Watch" and discovered it wasn't a night scene at all.
> >
> >>Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less,
> >>metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early
music
> >>nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized
> >>industrialization, assembly lines,
> > Because early musicians spend lots of time in factories
> >
> > Beware the logical fallacy of "they exist at the same time, therefore
there must be
> some cause and effect," or you can wind up joining the "vaccination causes
[insert
> your favorite ailment here]" crowd.  Cause and effect requires a
mechanism.
> >
> > In any event, mechanized industrialization and assembly lines have
coexisted for
> nearly a century with continuous vibrato, which is largely a post-World
War I
> development and is still the dominant way of playing and singing classical
music --
> some higher-level orchestras have taken to playing Mozart differently from
the way
> they play Rachmaninoff, but it hasn't filtered down much to the less
exalted
> professional ranks.
> >
> >> and the repeatable, homogenized
> >> regularity of product made possible by the use of computers.
> > I'm not sure I follow you here.  Are you talking about digital
recording, or something
> else?
> >
> >>It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of
> >>Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation
> >>today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some
aspects
> >>of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the
> >>spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma.
> > True in a very limited way, insofar as the spirit of earlier times was
"I play the way I
> play because I like to play that way; I play the best way I can based on
my own
> inclinations and the way I was taught to play."  That's essentially the
way nearly
> everyone did it until the early music movement built momentum, and it
works very
> well until you start playing something outside the current style, such as
-- oh, I don't
> know -- Mozart or Bach.  Or Dowland.  Or Beethoven.
> >
> > The notion of fidelity to Beethoven's intent, let alone Albeniz', did
not occur to most
> musicians of Segovia's generation.  Toscanini, who was older than Segovia
and
> active the first half of the 20th century, was known for being faithful to
"the score"
> precisely because it made him unusual.  Critics, biographers and the
musicians 

[LUTE] Re: what name is given to this instrument?

[Mathias Rösel]

Why, it's a 10string lute guitar, aka wandervogel lute. Probably
flat-backed.

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> David Morales
> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 6:11 PM
> To: List LUTELIST
> Subject: [LUTE] what name is given to this instrument?
> 
>Does anybody know any info about this instrument?
>[1]http://es.tinypic.com/r/2ez46e0/5
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://es.tinypic.com/r/2ez46e0/5
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: what name is given to this instrument?

[Mathias Rösel]

>So, i guess that guitar tuning would be the right tuning for the top
>six strings, but what about the other four strings? may i suppose that
>the best choice would be D, C, B, A?
>Regards.

Yes, that's how I for one have tuned my wandervogel lute. 

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: a new prof in Munich

[Mathias Rösel]

Hooray!!!

M.




> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Bernd Haegemann
> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 7:51 PM
> To: lute list
> Subject: [LUTE] a new prof in Munich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear all,
> Evangelina Mascardi will start teaching at the
> Hochschule fuer Musik und Theater Muenchen
> from october.
> So, oil your fingertips, brush up your Bavarian and apply until 31
> march.
> www.musikhochschule-muenchen.de
> Historische Auffuehrungspraxis
> Congratulations to Evangelina!
> Bernd
> --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: versions of Tombeau do Mezangeau

[Mathias Rösel]

> Not only did Mesangeau use this tuning a lot. This piece has many
stylistic traits
> characteristic of him.
> I suggest he could well have been the composer. Otherwise someone else has
> deliberately cited from his work. Anyway Tombeau de Mesangeau might mean
> Tombeau by Mesangeau as well as Tombeau for Mesangeau. If my suggestion is
> right, this tombeau would predate the one composed by Ennemond Gaultier.
> Lex

Would be funny, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, I was thinking that
tombeaux in the 17th century were composed for real deceased persons, and
not just like that as a stylistic exercise like in the 20th/21st centuries.
Unless it be clear for whom this tombeau was penned other than for late
Mesangeau, I'd assume it was written at the occasion of Mesangeau's obituary
by someone else.

Mathias



> >>>   according to Peter's wonderful database, 3 have been found:
> >>>
> >>> F-Pn ms. Vm7 6211, 31v
> >> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503776m/f66.image
> >>
> >> That's a different piece, in one of the transistor tunings :-) May be
> >> BY Mezangeau.
> >
> > That is the flat tuning, (like Lester) which Mesangeau did use a lot.



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[LUTE] Re: versions of Tombeau do Mezangeau

[Mathias Rösel]

> > I understand what you mean but for instance in Bittner's book there is
also a piece
> with the name "Tombeau"
> > In France this would be named Tombeau de Bittner. Just like Courante de
Gaultier
> for instance.
> > I was only suggesting a possibility. Mesangeau could be the composer or
he could
> be the dedicatee.

That tombeau is lacking ANY name
http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1&type=conc&lang=deu&conc=586 –– the
difference being that the tombeau F-Pn ms. Vm7 6211, 31v seqq. does bear a
name: "Tombeau de Mesangeau" which translates as "Mesangeau's [musical]
tombstone". Which implies, if I'm not mistaken, that Mesangeau was the
deceased person. 
As opposed to that, composers' names are given by the word "par", as I've
often found. Not a native speaker here, but I'm under the impression that
this would be usual way. The tombeau written by Mesangeau would be Tombeau
par Mesangeau. 
The easy way to prove me wrong would be to find a tombeau that is headlined
Tombeau de XY where XY is the name of the composer.

Mathias



> >
> > Lex
> > Op 21 apr 2014, om 12:11 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende geschreven:
> >
> >>> Not only did Mesangeau use this tuning a lot. This piece has many
> >> stylistic traits
> >>> characteristic of him.
> >>> I suggest he could well have been the composer. Otherwise someone
> >>> else has deliberately cited from his work. Anyway Tombeau de
> >>> Mesangeau might mean Tombeau by Mesangeau as well as Tombeau for
> >>> Mesangeau. If my suggestion is right, this tombeau would predate the
one
> composed by Ennemond Gaultier.
> >>> Lex
> >>
> >> Would be funny, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, I was thinking that
> >> tombeaux in the 17th century were composed for real deceased persons,
> >> and not just like that as a stylistic exercise like in the 20th/21st
centuries.
> >> Unless it be clear for whom this tombeau was penned other than for
> >> late Mesangeau, I'd assume it was written at the occasion of
> >> Mesangeau's obituary by someone else.
> >>
> >> Mathias
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>> according to Peter's wonderful database, 3 have been found:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> F-Pn ms. Vm7 6211, 31v
> >>>>> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503776m/f66.image
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's a different piece, in one of the transistor tunings :-) May
> >>>>> be BY Mezangeau.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is the flat tuning, (like Lester) which Mesangeau did use a lot.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> 
> --

[LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose

[Mathias Rösel]

> Dear David,
>   You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the
>   rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the
>   time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about
>   proceeding from speculation to certainty
>   It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked!
>   regards
>   Martyn

Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal golden
rose in Ennemond Gaultier’s immediate environment. His employer’s daughter,
Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been Madame
Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of
Princess Royal in the UK). She “was trained, along with her sisters, in
riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays” (Wiki),
that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier (or
him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria de’
Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with
Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be imagined as
the mother’s loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well match
the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond Gaultier
(Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while we’re at it, why would a gilded lute
rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose?

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose

[Mathias Rösel]

Wayne, Martyn,

Whenever a new topic of lute life turns up within my limited scope, I like
to trawl the archives of our collected wisdom. As everybody in this list
will know, there is quite a bit of valuable information to be found in past
threads. 

Recently, I've gilded one of my own roses. So I went through the archives
the other day and stumbled upon this thread:
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg42430.html (started
by Luca Manassero on June 20th 2013), and it was exciting enough to me.

In another forum, one well known prof lutenists seemed not even to know
about gilded roses, so I decided to dig a bit. Since I'm no professional
musician or musicologist, I don't much care about the date of discussions
and find nothing bad in resuming older threads. 

The crucial point to me was that what I found (papal golden rose to
Henrietta Maria) hadn't been mentioned in the archives before (I
cross-checked). What I suggest to assume is that the headline Loss of the
Golden Rose bears on Henrietta Maria's departure to England in 1625.

Sorry for confusion, Martyn. I sent the mail today, not last year, as Wayne
said already.

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> wayne cripps
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 5:37 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
> 
> 
> I got my copy of this message June 22, 2013!
> 
>   Wayne
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> > From: Martyn Hodgson 
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
> > Date: May 4, 2014 at 8:35:52 AM EDT
> > To: Mathias Rösel , Lute List
> > 
> > Reply-To: Martyn Hodgson 
> >
> >   It's almost 12 months since I sent this mail- is this a record delay
on
> >   Wayne's list!
> >   Martyn
> >
> __
> >
> >   From: Mathias RAP:sel 
> >   To: Lute List 
> >   Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2014, 13:27
> >   Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
> >> Dear David,
> >> You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps
> >   the
> >> rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the
> >> time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about
> >> proceeding from speculation to certainty
> >> It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked!
> >> regards
> >> Martyn
> >   Perhaps Martyn was not at all far from the spot. There was a papal
> >   golden
> >   rose in Ennemond Gaultier's immediate environment. His employer's
> >   daughter,
> >   Henrietta Maria, received a papal golden rose in 1625. She had been
> >   Madame
> >   Royale as of 1622 (later creating what today is known as the role of
> >   Princess Royal in the UK). She "was trained, along with her sisters,
in
> >   riding, dancing, and singing, and took part in French court plays"
> >   (Wiki),
> >   that way most certainly being in the environment of Ennemond Gaultier
> >   (or
> >   him being in hers, rather) who was employed by her mother, queen Maria
> >   de'
> >   Medici. In 1625, she left her mother and France for her marriage with
> >   Charles I. of England. The loss of the golden rose may well be
imagined
> >   as
> >   the mother's loss of her daughter, bearing that rose. That would well
> >   match
> >   the character of the related allemande grave in F minor by Ennemond
> >   Gaultier
> >   (Burwell lute tutor, ch. xv). And while we're at it, why would a
gilded
> >   lute
> >   rose not allude to that lost Golden Rose?
> >   Mathias
> >   To get on or off this list see list information at
> >   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >   --
> >
> > References
> >
> >   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 

[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes

[Mathias Rösel]

> When I think of 12 course lutes, I think of the ones described by Mace, with 
> two peg
> boxes. But the lute Baron is holding looks like a regular
> 11 course lute with an extra course, right?

That's right.

> Seems like there were two types of 12 course lutes.

As regards surviving lutes, I'm only aware of one type of 12c lutes, viz. the 
double-headed lute.

As regards musical sources, 12 courses are demanded by Reusner, as mentioned by 
Rob, and e.g. in D-ROu ms. Mus. Saec. XVII.18.54 (dated around 1670). Even a 
composer as late as Lauffensteiner, who actually wrote for the 11c lute, 
requires 12 courses in some of his pieces. I wonder if double-headed lutes were 
still played around 1720. Or did they already use a bass rider earlier than 
Weiss?

> > There is a lot of repertoire for it, though arguably none of it 'big' 
> > repertoire.
> > There is a little bit in the Wemyss ms, Panmure 4, and there is a large
> > number of German pieces -

The 12c lute seems to have flourished during the same period, roughly, as 
transitional tunings. Both are independent of each other, but I like to link 
one to the other, playing music in French flat and sharp (and 
flat-save-the-3rd-sharp, of course) tunings on the 12c lute in Mace's pitch. 
Quite a few pieces surviving (1.500 pieces, or so I seem to have read 
somewhere).

> > As for continuo, the instrument is closer to an 11c, but suitable for
> > smaller ensembles.

If talk is about the double headed lute, it seems clear that four extended bass 
courses on the second pegbox are intended for enhanced volume (Jacques Gaultier 
is remembered in the Burwell lute tutor for his "thundering" playing), which 
makes these theorboed lutes suitable for thorough bass playing. 12c lutes still 
are lutes, though, and not Italian chitarroni. So, I'd guess lute song is their 
home area (may I add that I've found this true for German early 17th century 
lute songs by Heinrich Albert), viol ensemble may work, but orchestra jobs 
should be avoided..

My 12c lute is a copy of the Wolff lute in Füssen. I had it built in its 
surviving size, i.e. 66 cm VSL. You may say, that's a tiny instrument, but the 
belly yields a surprisingly strong sound.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes

[Mathias Rösel]

> But on the other hand, it does seem plausible to me that builders 
> experimented with
> adding one extra course to 11 course lutes, before they came up with the bass 
> rider.
> Maybe Baron played one such experimental instrument?

Can't see why one should assume that. The lute he holds on the famous engraving 
is an 11c lute.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Reymes ms.

[Mathias Rösel]

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Dear Collected Wisdom,

 

Does someone on this list know if there are facsimiles extant or if there is
another access to the Reymes ms. available (F-Pn Rés. Vma. ms. 1404, or
simply F-Pcnrs)?

 

Mathias 


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http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; 
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>Dear 
Collected Wisdom, Does
 someone on this list know if there are facsimiles extant or if there is 
another access to the Reymes ms. available (F-Pn Rés. Vma. ms. 1404, or simply F-Pcnrs)? Mathias 

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[LUTE] Re: Reymes ms.

[Mathias Rösel]

Many thanks to those netters who quickly helped! Much appreciated!

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> 
> Dear Collected Wisdom,
> 
> 
> 
> Does someone on this list know if there are facsimiles extant or if there
is another
> access to the Reymes ms. available (F-Pn Rés. Vma. ms. 1404, or simply
F-Pcnrs)?




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[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.

[Mathias Rösel]

Rubbers (British English) usually do the trick for me, i.e. getting pinkie
spots off the soundboard.

Mathias

> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Martyn Hodgson
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 8:53 AM
> To: Herbert Ward; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
> 
>To restore the appearance to its new form, assuming this is sought,
>much depends on the finish originally employed by the maker.
>Early lute (and guitar) bellies show no significant signs of any
>obvious surface coating, such as a shellac spirit based finish or even
>an oil varnish. However, as was pointed out many years ago, old bellies
>do no exhibit the sort of major dirt ingress which you mention. And
>this cannot simply be put down to natural ageing and darkening of the
>wood which to some extent may reduce the contrast between dirty spots
>and surrounding wood.
>One suggestion (originally by Ian Harwood in FoMRHI Quarterly) has been
>egg tempera  - a mixture of linseed oil and egg - which was certainly a
>known coating at the time and much used by painters but can, over time,
>leave a greenish tint and areas of sheen. Another is the use of Stand
>Oil - also well known from earliest times. This is partially oxidised
>linseed oil which is very viscous and does not penetrate the wood but
>results in a matt finish which soon fully oxidises to a hard, but
>flexible, coating.
>Avoid commercial 'Stand Oil' which is generally nowadays produced by
>adding chemicals to linseed oil to give some of the effects of true
>Stand Oil. Simply pour linseed oil into an open dish and allow to stand
>for several weeks (stirring occasionally to avoid skinning) until it
>reaches a consistency of a thick treacle.
>Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for
>several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Of course, you should
>clean the affected spot(s) before doing this and if any other finish
>has been applied (eg spirit shellac/French polish, modern matt
>finishes, etc) this would need to be removed first.
>MH
> 
> __
> 
>From: Herbert Ward 
>To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2014, 21:51
>Subject: [LUTE] Bare spot on soundboard.
>I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie.
>The bare wood is starting to show through the finish.
>Should I do anything?
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Missing page?

[Mathias Rösel]

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Dear everbody,

There is a facsimile of Brno 3.329 online. You can access it at
http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php Enter search word
, click. That should open a list, where Brno 3.329 is the third
item.

Judging from traces at the inner margins of folios 29v and 30r, one page
between them seems to be missing. The music on fol. 30r appears to continue
from fol. 29v, more or less, but that may be due to the fact, that the music
on both pages happens to be in the same key and metre.

Or am I myself missing something here?

Mathias


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http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; 
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>Dear
 everbody,There
 is a facsimile of Brno 3.329 online. You can access it at http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php";>http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php
 Enter search word , click. That should open a list, where 
Brno 3.329 is !
 the third item.Judging
 from traces at the inner margins of folios 29v and 30r, one page between them 
seems to be missing. The music on fol. 30r appears to continue from fol. 29v, 
more or less, but that may be due to the fact, that the music on both pages 
happens to be in the same key and metre.Or am I 
myself missing something here?Mathias 

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[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quote - Sage advice

[Mathias Rösel]

Practising is my way of returning the inner self and body functions like
muscle tonus, blood circulation and breath into order. Lute-do, as David van
Ooijen once poetically put it.
Another thing is that some people in my environment just love the sound of
the lute. No need to play virtuoso pieces. That's why I do little recitals
every three months or so (which I would not do if there were prof lute
players in my town).
Some listeners expressed their lack of information about the music which I
took as an invitation to write little programmes about our lute heroes and
some particulars of the music and of the instruments.
Just do the good thing and share it. Thank you, Ron, for pointing at that!

Mathias



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Dan Winheld
> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 3:23 AM
> To: r.turov...@gmail.com; Ron Andrico; mathias.roe...@t-online.de;
> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; christophertstet...@gmail.com
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quote - Sage advice
> 
> William Hogarth might have seen a need for even more police
> 
>
http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/londons-street-noises-the-
> enraged-musician-by-william-hogarth/
> 
> On 8/31/2014 5:35 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Just remember the famous Friedrich der Grosse aphorism:
> > "If all my subjects played musical instruments: I wouldn't have needed
> > police!"
> > RT
> >
> >
> > On 8/31/2014 8:30 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
> >> I don't know about that... in my case, I often hide behind practicing
> >> to avoid household repairs, chores, and some of the other onerous
> >> duties of  being a grown-up. The music is quite edifying, of course,
> >> but it doesn't seem to have improved my behavior. Just my character.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/31/2014 12:42 PM, Ron Andrico wrote:
> >>> Thanks, Mathias and Christopher. All readers of this forum seem to
> >>> recognize that music in general and playing the lute in
> >>> particular is
> >>> the best form of self-improvement - we just have to let the rest
> >>> of the
> >>> world know.
> >>> RA
> >>> > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:30:20 +0200
> >>> > To: "lute, " lute@cs.dartmouth.edu " "
> >>> > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de
> >>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quote - Sage advice
> >>> >
> >>> > >> "...music that's good for you."
> >>> > > I love it.A Thanks, Ron.
> >>> > > Best to all,
> >>> > > Chris.
> >>> >
> >>> > wholeheartedly seconded!
> >>> >
> >>> > Mathias
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Ron Andrico
> >>> > > <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > A A We have posted our Saturday morning quote, Sage advice.
> >>> > > A A [1][2]http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k
> >>> > > A A Ron & Donna
> >>> > > A A --
> >>> > > References
> >>> > > A A 1. [3]http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k
> >>> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>> > > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>> > >
> >>> > > --
> >>> > >
> >>> > > References
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
> >>> > > 2. http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k
> >>> > > 3. http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k
> >>> > > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >

[LUTE] Transcriptions

[Mathias Rösel]

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Dear everybody,

There are three chaconnes, actually written for the angélique, that I've
posted on Danny Shoskes’ Lute Ning page (thank you, Danny, for offering that
great location!). 

I posted them in staff notation, due to two reasons. One is, the computer
programmes, viz. Fronimo as well as Django, lack proper characters for the
8th and 13th courses of the angélique. Second, nobody else seems to play the
instrument, probably, and I wanted to make the music available to the wider
public.

After all, it is good family music that can be performed with other
instruments, as well. Guitar is the obvious option, but recorders, flutes,
violins and anybody who reads treble clef may easily weigh in.

Yet before I continue to post any new bit of it, I'd like to know: Do
lutenists read, and even play from,  staff notation? And apart from
technical issues, is music for the angélique at all interesting to
lutenists? 

Mathias


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http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; 
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";>Dear 
everybody,There are three chaconnes, 
actually written for the angélique, that I've posted on Danny Shoskes’ 
Lute Ning page (thank you, Danny, for offering that great location!). 
I posted them in staff notation, due 
to two reasons. One is, the computer programmes, viz. Fronimo as well as 
Django, lack proper characters for the 8th and 13th courses of the angélique. 
Second, nobody else seems to play the instrument, probably, and I wanted to 
make the music available to the wider public.Af!
 ter all, it is good family music that can be performed with other instruments, 
as well. Guitar is the obvious option, but recorders, flutes, violins and 
anybody who reads treble clef may easily weigh 
in.Yet before I continue to post any 
new bit of it, I'd like to know: Do lutenists read, and even play from,  
staff notation? And apart from technical issues, is music for the angélique at 
all interesting to lutenists? Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: Galilei lute works

[Mathias Rösel]

> What about the Fronimo Dialogo :
> Fac simile here :
> 
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k582176

That's Michelangelo's father.


Mathias


> -Message d'origine-
> De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la
part
> de be...@interlog.com Envoyé : vendredi 5 août 2011 18:41 À : LuteNet list
> Objet : [LUTE] Galilei lute works
> 
> Hi, folks - a couple questions about Galilei lute works:
> 
> Is the Primo Libro D'intavolatura di Liuto  the only collection of his
stuff, or did
> he write more?
> 
> I've got the Edizioni Suvini Zerboni of this book - found it in the
Toronto library.
> Would anyone know how where I might go to find my own copy? Thank - hope
> everyone is enjoying the summer - BCS
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

> "Historical practice" was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even this
is not
> very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the pieces by
visee which
> exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature).

That's news to me, indeed. There is a theory that some theorbos were tuned
in D, but vieil ton, not D minor. The tablature pieces in Saizenay are
ordered by key, thus making it clear that the required instrument was tuned
in A. The theorbo pieces of de Visée's publication en musique stand a 4th
higher than the correspondent tablature versions. You could take a tablature
version and play it on a theorbo in D, so as to accompany the flute, but you
would double the upper voice. I don't think the edition en musique was meant
to be executed that way. Lesser theorbos (Talbot) were used for solo music,
or so I think.

Is there any evidence other than late Baron for the idea that theorbos were
tuned in D minor?

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

Chris,
Ralf,

I was speaking of the "Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth, Mises en Partition
Dessus et Basse", 1716 (facsimile Madrid, 1983). The guitar is not
mentioned. One might take this to suggest that de Visée himself viewed the
pieces as theorbo and lute music.

In his 1983 preface, Juan Marcos remarked that "many of these pieces had,
years before, an edition of its guitar versions" (sic!). However, that it
was "impossible to know for what instruments were they originaly conceived"
(sic!). 
I for one cannot see good reasons why one should claim that what de Visee
called music for the theorbo and the lute, in fact is guitar music (that
must have been rewritten for the theorbo and the lute).

As a matter of fact, pieces by de Visee that exist in versions for the
theorbo, the lute, the guitar and / or in score (en partition), have in
common that versions of a piece for lute, guitar and / or in score share the
same key, whereas the respective theorbo version is a 4th lower.

IMO it is safe to say about the 1716 score edition, that if pieces exists in
versions for the theorbo as well as other versions, the theorbo version is
original, nevertheless.

Mathias

> > The theorbo pieces of de Visée's publication en musique stand a 4th
> > higher than the correspondent tablature versions.

> Can the transposition of a 4th "en musique" be because
> de Visee was using his guitar pieces as his reference
> point?  Most of the solo theorbo pieces that also exist
> in guitar versions are pitched down a 4th from the
> guitar.  This makes sense since the guitar with
> re-entrant 5th course will have the 4th course as its lowest
> pitch, so as to be really "in d."
> 
> Chris
> 
> Christopher Wilke
> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> www.christopherwilke.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

> > I was speaking of the "Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth, Mises en
> > Partition Dessus et Basse", 1716 (facsimile Madrid, 1983). The guitar
> > is not mentioned.
> 
> I was speaking of the two printed guitar books from 1682 and 1686. No
theorbo
> mentioned in those.

That being so, it was off-topic, wasn't it.

> > One might take this to suggest that de Visée himself viewed the pieces
> > as theorbo and lute music.
> 
> Not in 1680-something :-)

No, I was speaking, as I said, of the "Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth, Mises
en Partition Dessus et Basse", 1716. Guitar is off-topic in this context
(see headline above).

> > In his 1983 preface, Juan Marcos remarked that "many of these pieces
> > had, years before, an edition of its guitar versions" (sic!).
> > However, that it was "impossible to know for what instruments were
> > they originaly conceived"
> > (sic!). I for one cannot see good reasons why one should claim that
> > what de Visee called music for the theorbo and the lute, in fact is
> > guitar music (that must have been rewritten for the theorbo and the
> > lute).
> 
> Nobody here made such a claim.

Yes, it has been made by means of implication. If a collection is labeled
Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth without even mentioning the guitar, but you
(the editor of the facsimile edition) state that it isn't possible to tell
whether the pieces were originally conceived for the guitar, the lute or the
theorbo, you do claim in that vein that the music was possibly conceived for
the guitar.

> Just that these pieces in score where published
> in the context of a guitar publication ca. 30 year before the where
published as
> theorbo pieces.

These pieces were not published in print as theorbo pieces at all. The
publication of the Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth in 1716 suggests that the
music previously existed as theorbo music, but it wasn't published in print.
Saizenay is dated 1699, but R1575 (and its sister ms.) is considerably
earlier, probably.

> > As a matter of fact, pieces by de Visee that exist in versions for the
> > theorbo, the lute, the guitar and / or in score (en partition),  have
> > in common that versions of a piece for lute, guitar and / or in score
> > share the same key, whereas the respective theorbo version is a 4th
> > lower.
> 
> Maybe because they would be unplayable at the high pitch on a theorbo?
> Given that the keys of pieces are clearly given in manuscripts I think
there's little
> to argue about.

Yes, agreed. After all, the leading question can be turned into the opposite
direction. Versions for the guitar and / or the lute stand a 4th higher
because they'd be unfeasible at the low theorbo pitch.

> > IMO it is safe to say about the 1716 score edition, that if pieces
> > exists in versions for the theorbo as well as other versions, the
> > theorbo version is original, nevertheless.
> 
> I think that's a claim hard to be proven. The earliest sources are for
guitar.

A claim hardly to be proved. 

> I tend
> to take these pieces as music published for a wide range of instruments
(those
> most popular at the time: guitar, harpsichord, violin/flute/recorder with
BC or
> lute / theorbo).

You are in good company. That is what de Visée wrote himself.

> It seems futile to claim that they are "originally" for one
> instrument with the other versions being mere
"Bearbeitungen"/arrangements.

I was under the impression that you take them as original guitar music. –
And if we take into account the difference of pitch between versions of a
piece for the lute (or guitar, for that matter) and versions of the same
piece for the theorbo, we may safely conclude that one is the adaptation of
the other. At least, I see no other explanation. The edition en partition
clearly is an adaptation.

> I don't think we need to assume equal pitch for the different scorings
since there
> seems to be no indication that these are meant to be used together.

By different scorings you mean theorbo tablatures and the 1680ish / 1716
score editions, I take it? Then that's what I said, the score edition is not
a version for the theorbo in D.

> There's also
> astonishing little evidence for Theorbos in D from french sources.

None, to put it straight.


Mathias


> > > > The theorbo pieces of de Visée's publication en musique stand a
> > > > 4th higher than the correspondent tablature versions.
> >
> > > Can the transposition of a 4th "en musique" be because de Visee was
> > > using his guitar pieces as his reference point?  Most of the solo
> > > theorbo pieces that also exist in guitar versions are pitched down a
> > > 4th from the guitar.  This makes sense since the guitar with
> > > re-entrant 5th course will have the 4th course as its lowest pitch,
> > > so as to be really "in d."
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > Christopher Wilke
> > > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> > > www.christopherwilke.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu

[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

> I would object to the idea that some
> version is a "rewrite" of another version. I take all three version
> (guitar/theorbo/score) as renderings of the same compositional idea.

A bit more than that, no? Exact transpositions of the same pieces, I'd say.
Perhaps we won't be able to tell which was first (as in Lessing's Ring
Parable), but it's pretty clear that one _was_ first and the others are
adaptations.

> > These pieces were not published in print as theorbo pieces at all.
> > The publication of the Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth in 1716 suggests
> > that the music previously existed as theorbo music, but it wasn't
> > published in print. Saizenay is dated 1699, but R1575 (and its
> > sister ms.) is considerably earlier, probably.
> >
> You know of any source earlier than 1682? Would you mind sharing?

Paris BN 1575 and BN 25391 are two theorbo mss. that abound with music by de
Visee. Some concordances with Saizenay, but both mss. seem to be much
earlier than 1699 and earlier than 1680, I'd say.

> Why? It might well be a written down version of the "core" composition.
> The instrument-specific versions adapt to the resp. instruments range.

I for one have never heard of such a thing like a core composition, to be
used for instrument-specific adaptations, in the 17th century.

> But who claimed that? The statement I questioned (and still do) was that
> since the scored version is a forth higher that implies a theorbo tuned
> a forth higher.

An idea that was positively maintained e. g. by Jose Moreno in the booklet
to his CD with music by de Visee. I agree with you in doubting it.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

> Paris Ms. Fonds Conservatoire National Rés. 1106 has another marking on
it's
> front page: R 1575 (41035)
> 
> David - one down, one to go

Thank you, David! I only have the xeroxes. The other one possibly is Paris
BN Vm7-6265. 86 pages, many concordances with Saizenay, some of them
deviating, two concordances with R 1575 (Rés. 1106). Two courantes for the
baroque lute on the last two pages (La belle homicide by Gaultier, and one
by Dubut par. Barbe p. 43). and the D-major section was wrongly inserted
before the ms. was page-numbered, now dividing an allemande by LeMoine (p.
46-7 and p. 57). Perhaps these data will do to identify the manuscript?

Mathias



> On 12 August 2011 18:02, David Smith  wrote:
> > Searching at the BnF catalog
> > http://catalogue.bnf.fr/jsp/recherchemots_simple.jsp?nouvelleRecherche
> > =O&nou veaute=O&host=catalogue I see no results that match 1575 or
> > 25391.
> > Any suggestions on finding them or help in clarifying what the numbers
> > refer to?
> >
> > Regards
> > David
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: R. Mattes [mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de]
> > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 12:42 AM
> > To: David Smith; 'Mathias Rösel'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:57:08 -0700, David Smith wrote
> >> Excuse me for what may be a stupid question but which manuscripts are
> >> Paris BN 1575 and BN 25391? I have tried to search for these using
> >> Google with no success. Where are they located, names, and are they
> >> available?
> >
> > Sorry, I'm far away from my reference works, but I think these would
> > be F-BN .., meaning "France, Bibliotheque National ..."
> >
> >  HTH Ralf Mattes
> >
> >> Regards
> >> David Smith
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
> >> On Behalf Of Mathias Rösel Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:46 PM
> >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for
> >> theorbo
> >>
> >> > I would object to the idea that some version is a "rewrite" of
> >> > another version. I take all three version
> >> > (guitar/theorbo/score) as renderings of the same compositional idea.
> >>
> >> A bit more than that, no? Exact transpositions of the same pieces,
> >> I'd say. Perhaps we won't be able to tell which was first (as in
> >> Lessing's Ring Parable), but it's pretty clear that one _was_ first
> >> and the others are adaptations.
> >>
> >> > > These pieces were not published in print as theorbo pieces at all.
> >> > > The publication of the Pieces de Theorbe et de Luth in 1716
> >> > > suggests that the music previously existed as theorbo music, but
> >> > > it wasn't published in print. Saizenay is dated 1699, but R1575
> >> > > (and its sister ms.) is considerably earlier, probably.
> >> > >
> >> > You know of any source earlier than 1682? Would you mind sharing?
> >>
> >> Paris BN 1575 and BN 25391 are two theorbo mss. that abound with
> >> music by de Visee. Some concordances with Saizenay, but both mss.
> >> seem to be much earlier than 1699 and earlier than 1680, I'd say.
> >>
> >> > Why? It might well be a written down version of the "core"
composition.
> >> > The instrument-specific versions adapt to the resp. instruments
range.
> >>
> >> I for one have never heard of such a thing like a core composition,
> >> to be used for instrument-specific adaptations, in the 17th century.
> >>
> >> > But who claimed that? The statement I questioned (and still do) was
> >> > that since the scored version is a forth higher that implies a
> >> > theorbo tuned a forth higher.
> >>
> >> An idea that was positively maintained e. g. by Jose Moreno in the
> >> booklet to his CD with music by de Visee. I agree with you in doubting
it.
> >>
> >> Mathias
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> > --
> > R. Mattes -
> > Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
> > r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ***
> David van Ooijen
> davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> ***
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

NN simply is a gorgeous soloist.

Mathias

PS: My theorbo has 82 cm VSL, and it took a while until I got used to it, but 
today I wouldn't say any more that 82 cm is large at all.


 
>  -Original-Nachricht-
>  > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Lute strings for theorbo  > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011
> 11:03:52 +0200  > From: nigelsolomon   > To:
> "baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
> 
>  > Just out of interest, when N. North recorded his Piccinini CD some  > years
> ago he recorded it on a K. Jacobsen theorbo. I was interested in  > ordering 
> the
> same instrument from Jacobsen and, if I remember  > correctly, he told me the
> fingerboard string length was 86cm. North is  > far from a giant, but he 
> doesn't
> sound as if he is struggling with all  > those extra centimetres on the 
> strings!
>  >
>  > Nigel
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > To get on or off this list see list information at  >
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  >
>  >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

> So, now that we seem to have traced down what manuscripts you are refering
> to, would you mind to elaborate a bit about
> 
> > Paris BN 1575 and BN 25391 are two theorbo mss. that abound with music
> > by de Visee. Some concordances with Saizenay, but both mss.
> > seem to be much earlier than 1699 and earlier than 1680, I'd say.

Nothing to add or to elaborate. Pls feel free to differ.

>  
> the reference at http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C18/1700.html
> gives the following:
> 
>  F:Pn Ms. Rés. Vm7 6265 [c1700]
> [RISM B/VII p. 265; SMT I p. 152]
> * 11-course in French tablature
> * 14-course theorbo in French tablature
> 
>  F:Pn Ms. Rés. 1106 [1725-1730]
> [RISM B/VII p. 271; SMT I p. 82]
> * 14-course theorbo in French tablature 
> 
> now, that's 20-50 years of your dating (and that of the earliest De Visee
guitar
> publication).

Yes. So what? Pls ask Gary R. Boye, the author of that page, for his
reasons.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Translation of old German.

[Mathias Rösel]

Jungfrauschaft actually is a noun and meant a) female virginity, b) male
virginity, c) a group of virgins. (BTW, for a) and c), Jungferschaft was a
more common form in High German, during the 14th through 18th centuries.)

In the verse " O haylige, onbeflecte, zart junckfrawschaffte Marie", though,
the word is used as an adjective, as is indicated by the ending -e
(junckfrawschaffte). That phrasing is quite unique, but it can still be
understood (something like "of, or related to, virginity").

"Maiden" wouldn't be unequivocal enough, it's rather Holy immaculate tender
virgin Mary. It is a row of terms that were subject to ardent theological
controversies during the 5th century, leading to the Nestorian Schism.

Mathias


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Hilbert Jörg
> Gesendet: Montag, 22. August 2011 10:48
> An: Steven Amazeen
> Cc: Lute List
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Translation of old German.
> 
> > O holy, immaculate, delicate maiden Mary
> 
> For my understanding of old German, this hits the point in a pragmatic
way.
> J.
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Duet in John Surt Lute Book

[Mathias Rösel]

There is a duet for two 12c lutes in the John Sturt lute book (GB-Lbl Add.
Ms. 38539), according to Ekkehard Schulze-Kurz. But in
http://w1.bnu.fr/smt/0222.htm no such duet is listed. Is someone familiar
with the John Sturt lute book?

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

[Mathias Rösel]

>I'm thinking theorbo purchase...  Where does one get a nylon theorbo
>14-course string set?  I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went
>from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short...  Please, no "you must use
>gut(!)" nonsense. 

That's correct, it isn't nonsense.

Mathias 



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[LUTE] Re: long strings?

[Mathias Rösel]

Garry,

Do as you please and mind your bizz. Everybody does, me included. I have gut
strings for basses because I like their short impulse and their quick
fading. I don't like overwound nylon strings, ringing on and on, forcing
players to stop them. Full stop.

What I was reacting to, was the word nonsense. Your would-be hilarious-lute
string police comes in the same vein. Casual remarks, probably, and not
meant to be disparaging. Sorry for overreacting.

Mathias


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Garry Warber
> Gesendet: Montag, 29. August 2011 06:16
> An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
> 
> Correct to you...  :-)  What I play in the privacy of my own home is my
business.
> Now I have to deal with lute-string police too?  Grammar police I'm used
to...  :-)
> Garry
> 
> -----Original Message-
> From: Mathias Rösel
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:47 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?
> 
> >I'm thinking theorbo purchase...  Where does one get a nylon theorbo
> >14-course string set?  I measured my 8-course lute strings, which
went
> >from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short...  Please, no "you must
use
> >gut(!)" nonsense.
> 
> That's correct, it isn't nonsense.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: long strings?

[Mathias Rösel]

> I suppose you're talking about this:
>
http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lut
e-
> medium/

You can watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNJaYInbbhs 

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Hammering on and snapping off

[Mathias Rösel]

>I'vev been doing a little checking up on Tombeau de Mezangeau and it's
>attributed to Ennemond "Vieux" Gaultier rather than Denis - his younger
>cousin. 

No argument about this. Denis took care of both his own and his cousin's
music in this edition. "... on se plaint que les copies des pieces de Luth
que Jay composé et que les copies des celes que Mr. Gaultier Sieur de Neve
mon cousin a faites, se trouvent fort alterées ... Jay crû estre obligé des
les faire graver pour les representer au Naturel" (people complain that the
lute music that I and my cousin composed, is very much altered in copies. So
I felt I was obliged to have them engraved so as to represent them in their
natural form).

>It was Denis who supervised publication of the 'Livre de
>Tablature pour Lut . . . .' in which it appears, but this was published
>in 1672, over 20 years after the death of Ennemond. 

And more than 40 years after Ennemond retired from service and public. Food
for thoughts. 

If you transcribe the tablature of the Tombeau for French flat tuning, this
whole pavan will lie more comfortably in your hands. An awkward stretch like
in measure 8 disappears, and IMO the whole piece is more organic. My
sneaking suspicion is that Ennemond's music was so charming that people
transcribed it for the new tunings of the day, that way smuggling quite a
few mistakes into the staves.

There is an allemande by Ennemond twice in D-Rou xvii-54. Once in d-minor
tuning, the other in French flat tuning.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Hammering on and snapping off

[Mathias Rösel]

> Really interesting.  I'll have a look at flat tuning and see what I can
make of it. 

Do you happen to know the Fronimo software? Transcripts from one tuning to
the other are really easy. Two clicks, and there you are.

> When you mention the awkward stretch in measure 8 - would that be the 8th
bar of the second section where there's a stretch from 7th fret (third
sting) to 4th fret (fourth string) followed by 7th fret first sting? 

No, sorry, I was talking about first section, measure 9

er'-a-r---a' -r-
a---a--
b---



///a

Which In flat tuning (F5D5B4G4D4A3 | G3F3E3D3C3B2) turns into

er'-a-r---a' -r-
a---a--
a---



///a

> I get around that one by doing a half barre with my little finger at the
7th fret - and it works for me.  The stretch is very awkward for me if I try
to use my third (ring) finger for the 7th fret (third string) and I can't
really get it to sound clearly with the 4th fret (4th string) stopped with
my first finger.  Hope that makes sense! 

It does, and I understand that your hand are smaller than mine. With flat
tuning, that measure become more feasible:

---hg-er
-
g-e---r-
-
f-dr-
-

A bit less difficult IMO.

Best wishes,

Mathias



>    I'vev been doing a little checking up on Tombeau de Mezangeau and it's
>    attributed to Ennemond "Vieux" Gaultier rather than Denis - his younger
>    cousin. 

No argument about this. Denis took care of both his own and his cousin's
music in this edition. "... on se plaint que les copies des pieces de Luth
que Jay composé et que les copies des celes que Mr. Gaultier Sieur de Neve
mon cousin a faites, se trouvent fort alterées ... Jay crû estre obligé des
les faire graver pour les representer au Naturel" (people complain that the
lute music that I and my cousin composed, is very much altered in copies. So
I felt I was obliged to have them engraved so as to represent them in their
natural form).

>    It was Denis who supervised publication of the 'Livre de
>    Tablature pour Lut . . . .' in which it appears, but this was published
>    in 1672, over 20 years after the death of Ennemond. 

And more than 40 years after Ennemond retired from service and public. Food
for thoughts. 

If you transcribe the tablature of the Tombeau for French flat tuning, this
whole pavan will lie more comfortably in your hands. An awkward stretch like
in measure 8 disappears, and IMO the whole piece is more organic. My
sneaking suspicion is that Ennemond's music was so charming that people
transcribed it for the new tunings of the day, that way smuggling quite a
few mistakes into the staves.

There is an allemande by Ennemond twice in D-Rou xvii-54. Once in d-minor
tuning, the other in French flat tuning.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Hammering on and snapping off

[Mathias Rösel]

>anyone done any studies to see if there are concordances of the same
>piece in different tunings and how much this might have been done?

I'd be keen on such a study as well. Andi Schlegel has rightly raised the
question if the Oeuvres de Vieux Gaultier edition (CNRS) can be considered
complete in any way as it exclusively contains Gaultier's music in
d-minor-tuning.

The habits of the time of his active service suggest that Vieux Gaultier
most probably made use of the ton ravissant and other so-called transitional
tunings until his retirement in 1631. As was the custom, contemporaries
would transcribe his pieces for their respective tunings, as did Denis
Gaultier for his edition.

I agree with Andi that quite a bit of Vieux Gaultier's music hasn't been
discovered as such, probably.

BTW, Mace has a table for transcribing on p. 186. Most authors write that
Mace was out of time when he published his flaming plea in defense of the
flat tuning in 1676. But that was only four years after Denis Gaultier's
last publication of 1672. In that very year, Thomas Samson published his
treatise, purporting that the d-major-tuning was the best, being taught in
London by John Rogers, presumably a senior teacher. In short, I think things
were still floating in Britain during the 1670ies.

I suppose a study on that subject should draw on continental manuscript
sources between Françisque and Ballard 1638 as a premise.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: The portrait of Denis Gaultier?

[Mathias Rösel]

> That's not Denis Gaultier!
> 
> If it's a Gaultier, then it's Jacques.
> see:
>
http://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/online-gallery/on-line-gallery
/obra/man-with-a-lute/?no_cache=1


That's not Jacques!

See: 
http://www.drawingsandprints.com/CurrentExhibition/detail.cfm?ExhibitionID=3
1&Exhibition=35 
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/darthmouth.edu.wbc/Reyn
.gif 

Mathias



> > Dear lute gang,
> >
> > has anyone analysed the famous picture by van Dyck of Denis Gaultier,
> > see
> >
> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Denis_Gaultier.jpg
> >
> > His instrument seems to be a big theorbo. Is it? Any other info of
> > this very beautiful portrait?
> >
> > Arto



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[LUTE] Re: The portrait of Denis Gaultier?

[Mathias Rösel]

Was wrong list, here goes again:

> So is there actually any reason to believe there is any connection to 
> any of the Gaultiers?

The painting is dated before van Dyck's first journey to London in 1620. It's 
not Jacques, that much is clear. Neither Denis who still was a teen at the time 
(and looked different, see 
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/m503604_93de2136_p.jpg). 
Before his first journey, van Dyck stayed at Antwerp. As far as I know, neither 
Ennemond nor Pierre nor Ennemond's his employer, the queen, left France before 
July 1631 (that's when Mary fled to Brussels). So it's not probable that the 
painting shows one of the four known lutenists Gaultier.

Mathias



> Or even to any musician? If the theorbo is just a "courtly symbol par 
> excellence"?
> 
> Arto
> 
> On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:50:07 +0200, Andreas Schlegel 
> 
> wrote:
> > That's not Denis Gaultier!
> >
> > If it's a Gaultier, then it's Jacques.
> > see:
> >
> http://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/online-gallery/on-line-
> gallery/obra/man-with-a-lute/?no_cache=1
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > Am 07.09.2011 um 21:29 schrieb wikla:
> >
> >> Dear lute gang,
> >>
> >> has anyone analysed the famous picture by van Dyck of Denis 
> >> Gaultier,
> see
> >>
> >>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Denis_Gaultier.jpg
> >>
> >> His instrument seems to be a big theorbo. Is it? Any other info of 
> >> this very beautiful portrait?
> >>
> >> Arto




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[LUTE] Re: Jacques Gautier

[Mathias Rösel]

Yes, and Ron Andrico edited quite a few of them, or so I seem to remember.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Nancy Carlin
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. September 2011 04:28
> An: Thomas Walker; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Jacques Gautier
> 
>It's one of John Robinson's wonderful collections that are supplements
>to Lute News.  I have it here aad it does not say which Lute News it
>was in, but is does have the date April 1997 on it.
>Naacy
> 
> I seem to remember that someone had taken the trouble to compile
>  some,
> or perhaps all, of Jacques Gautier's veil ton music in one
>  place.  Can
> anyone point me to the source on the web?  I seem to remember
> downloading a pdf, but of course I can't locate it now.
> Thanks much,
> Tom
> --
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>Nancy Carlin Associates
>P.O. Box 6499
>Concord, CA 94524  USA
>phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
>web sites - [2]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
>[3]www.groundsanddivisions.info
>Representing:
>FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe & Jez
>Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere
>Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello & Young
>Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
>web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>2. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
>3. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
>4. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

[LUTE] Melii

[Mathias Rösel]

   Dear Collected Wisdom,


   What do we know about Pietro Paolo Melii other than that he is
   mentioned at the court in Vienna in 1612 and 1619 and that leaps in his
   music caused discussions about assumed extraordinary octave stringings?
   Have some more details about his life come to light?


   Mathias

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Melii

[Mathias Rösel]

   Obviously, nothing is known so far.


   Then, what about Gianoncelli? Doni?


   In a preface, Orlando Christoferetti wrote that what became to be known
   as French stile brise in the 20^th century, was developed by Italian
   lutenists long before the French showed up with it. The characteristic
   traits of Mesangeau's style can already be found in Melii's and
   Gianoncelli's music, indeed. The latter was published as late as 1650
   by his widow, but the music seems to be closer to the beginning than to
   the middle of the century.


   Any thoughts?


   Mathias


   Von: Mathias Roesel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. September 2011 23:03
   An: Lute List (lute@cs.dartmouth.edu)
   Betreff: Melii


   Dear Collected Wisdom,


   What do we know about Pietro Paolo Melii other than that he is
   mentioned at the court in Vienna in 1612 and 1619 and that leaps in his
   music caused discussions about assumed extraordinary octave stringings?
   Have some more details about his life come to light?


   Mathias

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Bocquet pieces vids

[Mathias Rösel]

I beg to differ. But I think weh ad this discussion, it's in the archives.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Ron Andrico
> Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Oktober 2011 15:48
> An: chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Bocquet pieces vids
> 
>Chris:
>You forgot another 'wrong' in that there is no real proof the Bocquet
>pieces are by said Mademoiselle.  The evidence is largely wishful
>thinking on the part of Madame Rollin.
>RA
>> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 04:56:21 -0700
>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
>> Subject: [LUTE] Bocquet pieces vids
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I've put up four new videos of pieces in A minor by Mademoiselle
>Bocquet. Good stuff. Her music is wonderfully idiosyncratic and filled
>with character. Be warned, though: everything is wrong in the videos -
>wrong instrument (13-course), wrong strings (synthetic), wrong miking
>(very close), wrong reverb (zero), and wrong hand position (close to
>bridge) ;-) Actually, I'm deliberately going after a concept of tone
>quite different from what seems to be the norm nowadays. Comments
>welcome.
>>
>> Prelude:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQLCMNIljOA
>>
>> Sarabande:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLWt9EjqFeA
>>
>> La Polonoise, an allemande gay
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX5aURi_pd8
>>
>> Allemande, an allemande grave
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lWon1JBXIc
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Christopher Wilke
>> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
>> www.christopherwilke.com
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adew Dundee - Scottish Lute Video

[Mathias Rösel]

Erm, yes, and that's not what's in the Wemyss ms. The Wemyss ms. has edeff
(sharp tuning) and dedff (flat tuning), ascribing them their respective
names.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Andreas Schlegel
> Gesendet: Montag, 24. Oktober 2011 16:13
> An: ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
> Cc: Rob MacKillop; baroque lute list
> Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adew Dundee - Scottish Lute Video
> 
> You can also have a look on this page on the Accords nouveaux (at moment
only
> in German and partially in French):
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/index.html
> 
> The "Ton de la Harpe par b mol" is fedff in the Traficante-system (see
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords.html) - with
> 173 pieces in 11 sources The "Ton de la harpe par b dur" is fdeff - with
121
> pieces in 15 sources
> see:
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Accords/Accords_Darstellung
> /Accords_Darstellung.html
> 
> Scroll down to obtain a detailled list - and have then a look on the links
on
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Datenbank_PAN/Datenbank_
> PAN.html
> 
> You can choose the
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/DownloadD/files/PAN_Acc_Ton_Source.p
> df and the you know where the pieces can be found.
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> Am 24.10.2011 um 15:41 schrieb ar...@student.matnat.uio.no:
> 
> >>
>  The original scores are in harp sharp or harp flat tunings,
> >>>
> >>> what exactly are these tunings?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Are
> >>>
> >>
> >> With a 10c lute in Renaissance tuning...
> >>
> >> Harp Sharp - tune the first string down to E, the second string down
> >> to C
> >>
> >> Harp Flat - first string Eb, second string C
> >>
> >> Lots of music in these tunings!
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >
> > Are
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] John Danyel

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Everybody,

not sure if this has been discussed before, as the archives are unavailable 
currently. In John Danyels 1606 publication, there is a piece on the last pages 
(22-3) with a special lute tuning. It is a solo piece (variations on 
Greensleeves), and Danyel gives a chart with the intervals, but no pitches.

Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:

1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - C2
Or
2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1
Or
3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1

The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the time (C2). In 
that case, the 1st course would be higher (and thinner) than gut strings can be 
made for a G-lute with VSL of about 58-63 cm.

The 2nd and 3rd lines are based on the lowest bass strings for the chitarrone 
or the archlute. In that case, the 1st course has the pitch of a tenor lute. 
Played with the 1st course as B4, the variations on Greensleeves would be in 
C-major, and played with the 1st course as E4, the variations would be in 
F-major.

Of course, one might argue that somewhere in the middle is a sensible 
compromise, i. e. 1st course G4 with the 9th course Bb1. That way, however, 
Danyel's Greensleeves would be in A-flat-major. A bit awkward for 1606 IMO.

My questions are: 

1. Is there evidence of very small 9c lutes (about 50 cm VSL) in Britain around 
1600? (First line of tuning)

2. Is there evidence of theorboed 9c lutes (not to speak of Britain around 
1600)? (2nd and 3rd lines of tuning)

Mathias




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[LUTE] John Danyel

[Mathias Rösel]

Sorry for inconvenience ...

Dear Everybody,

not sure if this has been discussed before, as the archives are unavailable 
currently. In John Danyels 1606 publication, there is a piece on the last pages 
(22-3) with a special lute tuning. It is a solo piece (variations on 
Greensleeves), and Danyel gives a chart with the intervals, but no pitches.

Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:

1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - C2 

2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1

3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1

The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the time (C2). In 
that case, the 1st course would be higher (and thinner) than gut strings can be 
made for a G-lute with VSL of about 58-63 cm.

The 2nd and 3rd lines are based on the lowest bass strings for the chitarrone 
or the archlute. In that case, the 1st course has the pitch of a tenor lute. 
Played with the 1st course as B4, the variations on Greensleeves would be in 
C-major, and played with the 1st course as E4, the variations would be in 
F-major.

Of course, one might argue that somewhere in the middle is a sensible 
compromise, i. e. 1st course G4 with the 9th course Bb1. That way, however, 
Danyel's Greensleeves would be in A-flat-major. A bit awkward for 1606 IMO.

My questions are: 

1. Is there evidence of very small 9c lutes (about 50 cm VSL) in Britain around 
1600? (First line of tuning)

2. Is there evidence of theorboed 9c lutes (not to speak of Britain around 
1600)? (2nd and 3rd lines of tuning)

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: John Danyel

[Mathias Rösel]

Andy, this was meant to go to the list, I suppose?

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: andy butler [mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011 21:22

Mathias Rösel wrote:

> 
> Translated into pitch, the tuning would possibly be:
> 
> 1. B4 - F#4 - D4 - A3 - D3 - C3 | A2 - G2 - C2
> 
> 2. E4 - B3 - G3 - D3 - G2 - F2 | D2 - C2 - G1
> 
> 3. D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - F2 - Eb2 | C2 - Bb1 - F1
> 
> The first line is based on the lowest bass string on lutes at the time (C2). 

Surely the C2 is anomalous if those tunings were meant to have the same 
interval structure?

In that case 1. would drop down a tone (apart from the c2).

andy




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[LUTE] Re: John Danyel

[Mathias Rösel]

Thank you, everybody who responded! This list is a treasure trove.

Yours,

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: John Danyel

[Mathias Rösel]

> My guess is
> that the "general pitch" at this period was around a tone lower than
modern, so
> a "G lute" may have been around 67cm string length.  I think one of the
songs
> uses a "bass" lute in (nominal) D, so this may have been quite a big
beast.
> 
> The strange tuning used for "The Leaves be Green" is a kind of conceit
(first
> pointed out by Tony Rooley many years ago - starting with a nominal G
lute, the
> only courses which have *not* been changed in tuning are A and G, standing
for
> "Anne Greene".

If nominal G lute means starting with the 1st course in G, then there is no
A course with Danyel's tuning.

9c G-lute: G4 - D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - G2 || F2 - Eb2 - C2

Danyel: G4 - D4 - Bb3 - F3 - Bb2 - Ab2 || F2 - Eb2 - Bb1

If your guess is right, that the "general pitch" at this period was around a
tone lower than modern, that would cause problems with the lowest course
even on a big beast, or so I should guess. The fundamental would simply be
too thick a string. The only solution that I can think of would be loaded
guts.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: theorbo interview

[Mathias Rösel]

Found it: http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=2157771804
(24:30--30:00). Thank you for sharing this! Have you got responses,
Benjamin?

Best,

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von be...@interlog.com
> Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2011 17:02
> An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: theorbo interview
> 
> Whoops - here's an international website link. They podcast as well, I
believe.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/
> 
> 
> Quoting be...@interlog.com:
> 
> > Hey, everyone - there's an interview with me on  Canadian radio -
> > CBC's Tapestry - about the phenomenon of picking up a new instrument
> > at (ahem) mid-life.
> >
> > Here are the coordinates:
> > Sunday, Oct 23 @ 2:05 EST on CBC Radio One (99.1FM in Toronto)
> >
> > I'll be playing theorbo, singing and playing Bach, Castaldi and my own
> > compositions.
> >
> > The interview will be cached on the CBC website, so you can listen to
> > my inspirational meanderings any time.
> >
> > Remember - mid-life is the new mid-life!
> >
> > Benjamin Stein
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > please visit my website
> > http://benjaminstein.ca/
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> please visit my website
> http://benjaminstein.ca/
> 

[LUTE] Re: theorbo-lute

[Mathias Rösel]

The first part of Playford's Harmonia Sacra was published in 1688. That's
twelve years after Mace's Musick's Monument which is considered today as
old-fashioned in its claim for the 12c double-headed lute as a standard
lute. Nevertheless, the 12c double-headed lute still was played in England
around 1710 (see
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Abhandlung/Quellen/Quellen.html => 33-J-Tn
42, TOKYO, Nanki ongaku bunko (J-Tn), Ms. N-4/42, ca 1706-1721).

So one may safely say that the 12c double-headed lute possibly was within
the scope of thorough-bass instruments that Playford had in mind. On the
other hand, theorbo lute may just as well have signified the English theorbo
with its 1st course down one octave (but not the theorbo which Mace
describes).

Sad enough, only a handful of 12c lutes in their pristine states have
survived at all. So, we will never know where exactly the 12c lute was
played, and if Mary Burwell's statement was justified that French masters in
general had given up that instrument. After all, it is very well suited for
song accompaniment.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von dc
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 6. November 2011 08:52
> An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] theorbo-lute
> 
> The title page of Playford's Harmonia Sacra states that the thorough-bass
is "for
> the Theorbo-Lute, Bass-Viol, Harpsichord or Organ".
> 
> Is this "theorbo-lute" an instrument such as described in Britannica: "A
similar,
> smaller instrument, the theorbo-lute, or French lute, was a modification
of the
> regular double-strung lute, to which were added one to three off-the-
> fingerboard courses of bass strings. There were two pegboxes, one angled
> backward. Smaller and more agile than the theorbo, the theorbo-lute was
the
> favourite of the 17th-century school of French lutenists."
> 
> Or what we would now call an archlute? Or a theorbo?
> 
> If this was a French instrument, what was its name in French?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Gut Strings

[Mathias Rösel]

Well, with sheep, prion disease is called scrapie, isn't it, and it was
known long before mad cow disease turned up.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von R. Mattes
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2011 11:27
> An: lute list
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Gut Strings
> 
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:08:14 +0100, Luca Manassero wrote
> > Dear List,
> >as Mimmo explains in a video (unfortunately in Italian) on his
> >facebook page, the original beef gut regulation in EU was due to fear
> >of the so-called "mad cow" disease transmission.
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, but since when are gut strings made out of beef gut?
I
> always assumed that Aquilla's gut strings are made from sheep gut.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> 
> --
> R. Mattes -
> Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
> r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing

[Mathias Rösel]

> Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the same
> compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng:
> which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of Fabrice
Dentice
> the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that satnde
twoo and
> twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, which thei do for
a
> perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which those eight would
> cause."

> 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th course,
not just a
> unison 4th. Is this right?

I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave string
with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers (Italians in
general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that Dentice
also had unisons for his 4th course.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and Gilbert Isbin

[Mathias Rösel]

> Online German translators don't recognise 'beger',  'nit' nor 'mer' as
German so I
> don't have a clue what the title means.

Ich bege[h]r ni[ch]t me[h]r = I do not covet more.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and Gilbert Isbin

[Mathias Rösel]

And, yes, nice and well performed, Stuart!

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. November 2011 15:07
> An: 'Lute Net'
> Betreff: Re: Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and Gilbert
> Isbin
> 
> > Online German translators don't recognise 'beger',  'nit' nor 'mer' as
> > German so I don't have a clue what the title means.
> 
> Ich bege[h]r ni[ch]t me[h]r = I do not covet more.




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[LUTE] Re: SAD TRIP----Michael Thames

[Mathias Rösel]

   I cannot believe this. Does someone know if that mess-age is reliable?
   Does someone know Michael's whereabouts?


   Mathias



   Von: Michael Thames [mailto:michael_tha...@msn.com]
   Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. November 2011 10:24
   An: undisclosed recipients:
   Betreff: SAD TRIPMichael Thames


   Hi,


 Just writing to let you know our trip to Madrid,Spain it has been a
   mess. We were having a great time until last night when we got mugged
   and lost all our cash,credit card cell phone.It has been a scary
   experience, I was hit at the back of my neck with a pistol. Anyway,I'm
   still alive and that's what's important. I'm financially strapped right
   now and need your help,As we speak i need EURO 1,750 to add up and sort
   my bills,don't worry i will def refund it as soon as we get home,the
   fastest and safest means you can get money to me is via western
   union,Here's my info:


   Name: Michael Thames

   Location: Alvarez de Castro Street, 41 28010 Madrid, Spain


   As soon as it is done, kindly get back to me with the confirmation
   number. Let me know when you are heading to the western union now

   Michael Thames Thames Classical
   Guitars [1]www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com


   --

References

   1. http://www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com/


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Mathias Rösel]

> The discussion started on baroque lutes. Not many lute songs with
intabulated
> parts for those. 

If any. I'm not aware of lute songs for the 11c / 13c lutes.

Mathias


If anything, there will be a continuo part. No need to even
> discuss transposing: just do it.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ***
> David van Ooijen
> davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> ***
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: SAD TRIP----Michael Thames

[Mathias Rösel]

Thank you everyone who responded. It's a relief to know that Michael Thames
was not robbed.

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Eugene C. Braig IV
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. November 2011 21:05
> An: 'Mathias Rösel'; 'Lute List'
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: SAD TRIPMichael Thames
> 
> Michael writes directly from (a different address), "Eugene, sorry my
account
> was hacked this is a scam.."
> 
> Eugene
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Mathias Rösel
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:28 AM
> > To: Lute List
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: SAD TRIPMichael Thames
> >
> >I cannot believe this. Does someone know if that mess-age is
reliable?
> >Does someone know Michael's whereabouts?
> >
> >
> >Mathias
> >
> >
> >
> >Von: Michael Thames [mailto:michael_tha...@msn.com]
> >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. November 2011 10:24
> >An: undisclosed recipients:
> >Betreff: SAD TRIPMichael Thames
> >
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >
> >  Just writing to let you know our trip to Madrid,Spain it has been a
> >mess. We were having a great time until last night when we got mugged
> >and lost all our cash,credit card cell phone.It has been a scary
> >experience, I was hit at the back of my neck with a pistol.
Anyway,I'm
> >still alive and that's what's important. I'm financially strapped
right
> >now and need your help,As we speak i need EURO 1,750 to add up and
sort
> >my bills,don't worry i will def refund it as soon as we get home,the
> >fastest and safest means you can get money to me is via western
> >union,Here's my info:
> >
> >
> >Name: Michael Thames
> >
> >Location: Alvarez de Castro Street, 41 28010 Madrid, Spain
> >
> >
> >As soon as it is done, kindly get back to me with the confirmation
> >number. Let me know when you are heading to the western union now
> >
> >Michael Thames Thames Classical
> >Guitars [1]www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> > References
> >
> >1. http://www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com/
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight

[Mathias Rösel]

> This discussion feeds into one of my pet theories: That Cabezon's
>keyboard tablature could be read by professional vihuelists and
>harpers. Cabezon's tab is quite straightforward and logical. Any
>thoughts?

May I repeat myself:

Organ tablature is not a tablature like lute tablature (charting fret board
positions), but a pitch notation. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_tablature (the German version is better
organized). That applies to German as well as to Spanish organ tablature.

Musicians of all instruments as well as singers could rightly be expected to
sing and play from organ tablature. E. g. Dietrich Buxtehude wrote his works
in organ tablature, including the voice parts, and he by no means was an
exception."

Cabezon's advertisement (his son's, that is), that the music was intended
for the harpsichord, the harp, as well as the vihuela, didn't come as a
surprise, just a reminder. In Spanish organ tab, each voice has its distinct
line. All you have to do, is to learn the numbers by heart (the scale starts
on F = 1), and go ahead for it.

Mathias



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight

[Mathias Rösel]

>Funny, I always looked at it the other way around, that keyboard notion
>is tablature: each note refers to a spot on the keyboard.

That is so, indeed, with the so-called Italian keyboard tablature which has
happened to develop into modern staff notation. In Italian keyboard
tablature, each symbol may be seen as representing a distinct key. White
key, that is, because flats and sharps are another story.

Yet Spanish and New German organ tablatures signify respective octaves by
dots (Spanish) or by upper case and lower case letters and dashes (German).
They both resemble German lute tablature in that any symbol can be written
in any line independently.

>Of course you are right, but if there was no fixed pitch, which I am
>assuming there wasn't, then no keyboard notation refers to a pitch.

Non-native speaker here, pls have mercy. When I wrote pitch, I could have
written tone or note just as well. A4 is A4, be it 465 Hz or 440 Hz or 415
Hz or 392 Hz. It's just A4. David, when you tune your archlute according to
what the harpsichord player gives you, I suppose, you won't discuss the
exact frequency with her but take an A as an A.

>Along the same lines, if some (but not all) lute players "saw" pitches
>but not hand positions, then the notion would have a similar congnitive
>funtion.

Not really sure about that. You do play the theorbo in A, don't you?

>Most keyboard players automatically "grab" the notes they see, they
>skip the note part and just get a picture of the placement. But if they
>wanted to, they could easily add in the middle step.

What they cannot do, though, is to play the same note on three different
keys.

Mathias



>>This discussion feeds into one of my pet theories: That Cabezon's
>>keyboard tablature could be read by professional vihuelists and
>>harpers. Cabezon's tab is quite straightforward and logical. Any
>>thoughts?
>May I repeat myself:
>Organ tablature is not a tablature like lute tablature (charting fret
>board
>positions), but a pitch notation. See
>[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_tablature (the German version is
>better
>organized). That applies to German as well as to Spanish organ
>tablature.
>Musicians of all instruments as well as singers could rightly be
>expected to
>sing and play from organ tablature. E. g. Dietrich Buxtehude wrote his
>works
>in organ tablature, including the voice parts, and he by no means was
>an
>exception."
>Cabezon's advertisement (his son's, that is), that the music was
>intended
>for the harpsichord, the harp, as well as the vihuela, didn't come as a
>surprise, just a reminder. In Spanish organ tab, each voice has its
>distinct
>line. All you have to do, is to learn the numbers by heart (the scale
>starts
>on F = 1), and go ahead for it.
>Mathias
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_tablature
>2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html



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[LUTE] Re: Lute of the Month- UGLY!

[Mathias Rösel]

> > For players of theorbo or archlute, it has sometimes been the other
> > answer.
> >
> For early music ensemble directors engaging a theorbo player, it is only
the
> other answer.

The other way, I chose my first baroque lute. It had to be a swan-neck, of
course. That was 20 years back. I was under the impression I was playing a
baroque lute and only later came to know that kind of lute-theorbo. Optics …

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Xmas tunes

[Mathias Rösel]

> Christmas Book/CD
> 
> http://www.guitarandlute.com/christmas_lute.html

Did I forget to mention?

  File: /Tablatures/Nun-komm-der-Heiden-Heiland.ft3 
  Description : Chorale with two beautiful doubles from D-Rou XVII-54, two
versions (11c and 10c lutes) 

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fronimo_editor/files/Tablatures/Nun-komm-der-H
eiden-Heiland.ft3 

And you can have the PDF file at http://lutegroup.ning.com/ (Forum,
Tablatures).

Enjoy!

Mathias



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[LUTE] Dance in time

[Mathias Rösel]

   Dear everyone,


   There is a dance in triple time in Panmure 5, fol. 17v-18, that
   probably is neither a courante nor a sarabande, lacking their
   chracteristic rhythms. It has hemiolas in cadences, but also other
   characteristic rhythms, though, like crotchet - minim at some ends of
   phrases, or crotchet - dotted crotchet - two semiquavers / one quaver
   (marking the ends of hemiolas).


   Some say it's a country dance. Yet I wonder if English country dances
   (and masques, for that matter) come in even time?


   Mathias

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Dance in time

[Mathias Rösel]

> Where can I find Panmure 5 so I can get an idea of the music you are
talking
> about?
> I suppose it is for a 10 course lute tunes in one of the transitional
tunings.
> Do you have a copy or a link?

I shall send pdf and midi files to anyone who lets me know they are
interested in the piece.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Dance in time

[Mathias Rösel]

> I'm pretty certain it is a jigge or gigue.
> Look in Dufault or Mercure for similar pieces.

Not convinced. I've run though the CNRS editions (Dufaut, 2nd ed., and
Mercure; btw,there are not more than three gigues by Mercure at all). None
of all these gigues in triple time shows the characteristic rhythm of the
piece at stake, i.e. crotchet - minim. 
On the other hand, this piece lacks the characteristic rhythm of most of
Dufaut's and Mercure's gigues in triple time, i.e. dotted crotchet - quaver
- crotchet. No, I don't think it's a gigue.

What is striking, is that this pieces has sequenced motives, i.e. phrases
that are repeated on different pitches, in all of its three sections. And
the melody is nowhere broken. I'm suspicious it could be an English song
among all of the French and Scottish music in that book. But, alas, I'm not
familiar with English tunes of the 1630ies. - Anyone?

Mathias

> >
> > Please find the related files attached. Curious, what you think about
it!
> >
> > Mathias
> >
> >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> >> Von: Lex van Sante [mailto:lvansa...@gmail.com]
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 9. Januar 2012 17:54
> >> An: Mathias Rösel
> >> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Dance in time
> >>
> >> Hi Mathias,
> >>
> >> Where can I find Panmure 5 so I can get an idea of the music you are
> > talking
> >> about?
> >> I suppose it is for a 10 course lute tunes in one of the transitional
> > tunings.
> >> Do you have a copy or a link?
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >> Lex
> >> Op 8 jan 2012, om 14:27 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >>>  Dear everyone,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  There is a dance in triple time in Panmure 5, fol. 17v-18, that
> >>> probably is neither a courante nor a sarabande, lacking their
> >>> chracteristic rhythms. It has hemiolas in cadences, but also other
> >>> characteristic rhythms, though, like crotchet - minim at some ends
> >>> of  phrases, or crotchet - dotted crotchet - two semiquavers / one
> >>> quaver  (marking the ends of hemiolas).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Some say it's a country dance. Yet I wonder if English country
> >>> dances  (and masques, for that matter) come in even time?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Mathias
> >>>
> >>>  --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Dance in time

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Lex,

You made my day. Thank you very much!

Mathias

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von Lex van Sante
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Januar 2012 11:40
> An: Mathias Rösel; lute mailing list list
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Dance in time
> 
> Hi Mathias,
> 
> The piece has a title. It is a setting of "the Widow" by Simon Ives.
> It is to be found on the CD "Old Gautiers Nightingall"
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Lex
> 
> 
> Op 9 jan 2012, om 20:24 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende geschreven:
> 
> >> I'm pretty certain it is a jigge or gigue.
> >> Look in Dufault or Mercure for similar pieces.
> >
> > Not convinced. I've run though the CNRS editions (Dufaut, 2nd ed., and
> > Mercure; btw,there are not more than three gigues by Mercure at all).
> > None of all these gigues in triple time shows the characteristic
> > rhythm of the piece at stake, i.e. crotchet - minim.
> > On the other hand, this piece lacks the characteristic rhythm of most
> > of Dufaut's and Mercure's gigues in triple time, i.e. dotted crotchet
> > - quaver
> > - crotchet. No, I don't think it's a gigue.
> >
> > What is striking, is that this pieces has sequenced motives, i.e.
> > phrases that are repeated on different pitches, in all of its three
> > sections. And the melody is nowhere broken. I'm suspicious it could be
> > an English song among all of the French and Scottish music in that
> > book. But, alas, I'm not familiar with English tunes of the 1630ies. -
Anyone?
> >
> > Mathias
> >
> >>>
> >>> Please find the related files attached. Curious, what you think
> >>> about
> > it!
> >>>
> >>> Mathias
> >>>
> >>>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> >>>> Von: Lex van Sante [mailto:lvansa...@gmail.com]
> >>>> Gesendet: Montag, 9. Januar 2012 17:54
> >>>> An: Mathias Rösel
> >>>> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Dance in time
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Mathias,
> >>>>
> >>>> Where can I find Panmure 5 so I can get an idea of the music you
> >>>> are
> >>> talking
> >>>> about?
> >>>> I suppose it is for a 10 course lute tunes in one of the
> >>>> transitional
> >>> tunings.
> >>>> Do you have a copy or a link?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers!
> >>>>
> >>>> Lex
> >>>> Op 8 jan 2012, om 14:27 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende geschreven:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is a dance in triple time in Panmure 5, fol. 17v-18, that
> >>>>> probably is neither a courante nor a sarabande, lacking their
> >>>>> chracteristic rhythms. It has hemiolas in cadences, but also other
> >>>>> characteristic rhythms, though, like crotchet - minim at some ends
> >>>>> of  phrases, or crotchet - dotted crotchet - two semiquavers / one
> >>>>> quaver  (marking the ends of hemiolas).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some say it's a country dance. Yet I wonder if English country
> >>>>> dances  (and masques, for that matter) come in even time?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mathias
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Dance in time

[Mathias Rösel]

> In fact, it was already listed as such for some time in the database for
Pièces en
> Accords Nouveaux". See www.accordsnouveaux.ch

Erm, no. Source, chapter and verse, yes, but not its correct title. Please
correct me, if I'm wrong. In the maitrise, the piece is listed as country
dance (in brackets). That seemed improbable to me, and that's why I was
looking for the correct title.

Mathias

> ---Messaggio originale---
> 
> Da: Mathias Rösel
> Data: 10/01/2012 17.44.06
> A: 'lute mailing list list'
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Dance in time
> 
> Dear Lex,
> 
> You made my day. Thank you very much!
> 
> Mathias
> 
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> > Auftrag von Lex van Sante
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Januar 2012 11:40
> > An: Mathias Rösel; lute mailing list list
> > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Dance in time
> >
> > Hi Mathias,
> >
> > The piece has a title. It is a setting of "the Widow" by Simon Ives.
> > It is to be found on the CD "Old Gautiers Nightingall"
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Lex
> >
> >
> > Op 9 jan 2012, om 20:24 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > >> I'm pretty certain it is a jigge or gigue.
> > >> Look in Dufault or Mercure for similar pieces.
> > >
> > > Not convinced. I've run though the CNRS editions (Dufaut, 2nd ed.,
> > > and Mercure; btw,there are not more than three gigues by Mercure at
all).
> > > None of all these gigues in triple time shows the characteristic
> > > rhythm of the piece at stake, i.e. crotchet - minim.
> > > On the other hand, this piece lacks the characteristic rhythm of
> > > most of Dufaut's and Mercure's gigues in triple time, i.e. dotted
> > > crotchet
> > > - quaver
> > > - crotchet. No, I don't think it's a gigue.
> > >
> > > What is striking, is that this pieces has sequenced motives, i.e.
> > > phrases that are repeated on different pitches, in all of its three
> > > sections. And the melody is nowhere broken. I'm suspicious it could
> > > be an English song among all of the French and Scottish music in
> > > that book. But, alas, I'm not familiar with English tunes of the
> > > 1630ies. -
> Anyone?
> > >
> > > Mathias
> > >
> > >>>
> > >>> Please find the related files attached. Curious, what you think
> > >>> about
> > > it!
> > >>>
> > >>> Mathias
> > >>>
> > >>>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > >>>> Von: Lex van Sante [mailto:lvansa...@gmail.com]
> > >>>> Gesendet: Montag, 9. Januar 2012 17:54
> > >>>> An: Mathias Rösel
> > >>>> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Dance in time
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Mathias,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Where can I find Panmure 5 so I can get an idea of the music you
> > >>>> are
> > >>> talking
> > >>>> about?
> > >>>> I suppose it is for a 10 course lute tunes in one of the
> > >>>> transitional
> > >>> tunings.
> > >>>> Do you have a copy or a link?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Lex
> > >>>> Op 8 jan 2012, om 14:27 heeft Mathias Rösel het volgende
geschreven:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Dear everyone,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There is a dance in triple time in Panmure 5, fol. 17v-18, that
> > >>>>> probably is neither a courante nor a sarabande, lacking their
> > >>>>> chracteristic rhythms. It has hemiolas in cadences, but also
> > >>>>> other characteristic rhythms, though, like crotchet - minim at
> > >>>>> some ends of  phrases, or crotchet - dotted crotchet - two
> > >>>>> semiquavers / one quaver  (marking the ends of hemiolas).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Some say it's a country dance. Yet I wonder if English country
> > >>>>> dances  (and masques, for that matter) come in even time?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Mathias
> > >>>>>
> > >&g

[LUTE] Re: Some history questions

[Mathias Rösel]

>>Puritan? 1670s? With that Unreconstructed Good Time Boy Charles II
>back on the throne since 1660? I don't think so! Besides 'Puritanism'
>is a much misunderstood concept, thanks to >the 19th century.

IIRC the initial question was about the probability of baroque lute music
being played during a ball.

One approach considers the matter-of-factness: In a house where there was
but one lute -- of course, they would use it for solo music as well as for
dancing.

Another considers the appropriateness: Lutes for dancing? Never shall you
mention …!

IMO one aspect has so far been unmentioned, i. e. the rise of the theorbo
and the guitar. Prints by Robert Ballard (1611, 1614) or Pierre Gaultier
(1638) contain intabulations of ballets that had before been performed on
stage by court orchestras for real dancing. That can be construed as
suggesting that real dancing at home possibly was accompanied with lutes as
late as, say, 1640. 

When the d-minor lute came into more frequent use, however, there seems to
have been a parting of the ways. Lutes were more and more confined to solo
music, including all those stylized courantes and allemandes with uneven
numbers of measures, whereas music on stage and real dancing in public was
accompanied with the theorbo and/or the guitar, playing in a band. Just a
thought …

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale

[Mathias Rösel]

315 Euros, that'll be the final bid! Howgh!

Mathias


> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
> Auftrag von howard posner
> Gesendet: Samstag, 18. Februar 2012 06:55
> An: Lute Net
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale
> 
> 
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 7:40 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
> 
> > 300 Euros. Btw, is it broken??
> 
> Well, it's dropped against the dollar and the pound because of the
Eurozone
> crisis, but I wouldn't call it broken.
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Ernst Pohlmann

[Mathias Rösel]

> OK. thank you. Now I am sure that he died. I am not interesting into buy
his
> book. I have it already in the library. But do you know something more
about his
> private library, collection? To which research centre he was attached?

To none, but his private library was given tot he library of the Hochschule
fuer Kuenste, Bremen. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_the_Arts_Bremen

Mathias



> Dnia 22-02-2012 o godz. 17:37 Albert Reyerman napisał(a):
> > Ernst Pohlmann died many years ago.
> > His book is completely sold out and is not availble any longer from
> > his publisher Edition Eres, Bremen, Germany.
> >
> > Albert Reyerman
> > TREE  EDITION
> > www.Tree-Edition.com
> >
> > TREE  EDITION
> > Albert Reyerman
> > Finkenberg 89
> > 23558 Luebeck
> > Germany
> > albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
> > www.Tree-Edition.com
> > ++49(0)451 899 78 48
> >
> > More music books available at
> > http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/
> >
> >
> > Am 22.02.2012 17:12, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak:
> > > Hi lute lovers,
> > >
> > > I would like to ask you about Ernst Pohlmann. We know him mainly
> > > from
> > his publication *Laute, Theorbe, Chitarrone...*. Does anybody know is
> > it possible to get in touch with him? Do you know where I could find
him?
> > >
> > > Bests
> > >
> > > Grzegorz




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[LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers

[Mathias Rösel]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>Famed Czech radical Josef Skvorecky recently died at 87 in his adopted
>land of Canada.
>In the Atlantic, JJ Gould remembers Skvorecky through his memoirs,
>including a detailed list of the rules for jazz performers during the
>Nazi occupation. The Reich's Gauleiter for the Nazi Protectorate of
>Bohemia and Moravia issued a 10-point regulation that Gould calls "the
>single most remarkable example of 20th-century totalitarian invective
>against jazz."

As a matter of fact, they are only now rediscovering the swing movement in
then Germany as a type of resistance. Quite a few maladjusted youths were
sent to concentration camps on grounds of listening to swing music.

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers - Ban the Lute!!!

[Mathias Rösel]

>Anyway, the question of instruments in church has been debated ad
>nauseam.  It seems that it was fairly common practice in the 16th
>century, and that it was widely accepted in the 17th century with the
>advent of motets with continuo accompaniment.  "The Lute in Christian
>Spain" by Diana Poulton in _The Lute_ (Volume 19, 1977) is still a good
>source of information on the question of whether the lute was even used
>in the Catholic Kingdoms.

The subject line of this thread should have been changed a couple of
contributions ago IMO 8) 

As for lute music in church environment and its counterpart in secular
surroundings, the tombeau springs to mind.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Wikipedia

[Mathias Rösel]

> Here here. Edit away Monica.
> 
> I'm not a scholar, simply a humble lute player who relies on all sorts of
sources
> (Grove being one…) for my learning and historical context for my
instrument.
> Personally I'd prefer Wiki was edited by the scholars that know, rather
than
> remain out of date or full of simply fanciful information.  Even if it
means a few
> opinions being put forward regarding current research.

One day tells its tale to the other. After having read an enlightening
article on Pierre Gaultier by François Pierre Goy, recently, I shall edit
the respective Wiki articles asap. The good thing about it is that
Wikipedians never work alone 8)

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always "how it is"...

[Mathias Rösel]

> I'm not so sure. He may not be right.

We have a saying in German, perhaps it's a quote actually, that goes:
Intellect is the only fair-distributed thing in the world, as most people
think they've got enough of it.

Mathias



> Dear lutenists,
> 
> after having read every now and then some quite strong opinions "how it
really
> is" here in our List, I cannot resist posting a perhaps slightly OT
message, but
> there is a great wisdom in a comment by Charles
> Bukowski:
> 
> "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of
doubts
> while the stupid ones are full of confidence."
> 
> Actually that is very pessimistic, but anyhow
> 
> all the best,
> 
> Arto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!

[Mathias Rösel]

> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Martin Luther, circa 1500, say
"Why
> should the Devil have all the best music?", and took his lute and recorder
to the
> German taverns to play his hymns.

May I say at least that this is news to me: Luther playing the recorder, and
Luther playing and singing in taverns.

> His 'A Mighty Fortress Is Our God' wasn't only
> sung in churches.

Right, it was also sung on stakes and before battles, i.e. when facing
eternity.

> It wasn't only the Holy Bible that he took out of the sacred precincts and
> brought to the secular.

This is the third news to me, Luther brought the Bible to the secular.

Keep plucking!

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!

[Mathias Rösel]

Stephen,

translation of sacred texts into vernacular languages may qualify as
secularisation in other religions, but regarding Luther, the opposite may
considered true. He didn't bring the Bible into the secular, he brought the
people to the Holy.

To make this point more lute-related, you might compare music in German lute
tablature. The number of translations into French tab is increasing, but
that doesn't mean that Judenkünig's and Newsidler's music is deprived of its
original air. Instead, that beautiful music is opened to masses of players
who otherwise had no access.

Mathias

PS: It's quite well attested that Luther played the lute, but as for playing
in taverns, please take into account that he had been a monk.



> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im 
> Auftrag von Stephen Stubbs
> Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 05:30
> An: Mathias Rösel
> Cc: Lute List
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!
> 
> Reference:
> Luther, Biography of a Reformer, by Frederick Nohl, Concordia 
> Publishing House, 2003.
> ISBN 0-7586-0651-6
> 
> Luther thought it was critical that lay people (non-clergy and the
> unlearned) be able to understand the service, be able to sing the 
> hymns during service, and be able to read the Holy Bible for themselves.
> 
> At the end of the book, there is a wonderful timeline for Luther, 
> starting on page 215.
> 
> In 1521, Luther translates the New Testament from Greek into German in 
> 3 months.
> 
> It took Luther and the scholars he gathered with him in Wittenberg 
> around 12 years to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew into German.
> 
> In 1534, printer Hans Lufft gives Luther a copy of the first truly 
> German Bible, containing both Old and New Testaments in German, and 
> was illustrated with colorful initials and woodcuts.  (This is what I 
> meant by Luther taking the Holy Bible out of the sacred precincts and 
> bringing it to the secular.  Now anyone who could read German could 
> read the Holy Bible.  As far as I know, this was the first local 
> language Holy Bible produced in the world.  Gutenberg's printed Holy 
> Bible was the Latin Vulgate translation.)
> 
> In 1525 Luther prepared his German Mass.  The entire service was in 
> German (another first as far as I know).  Prior Masses had the choir 
> do almost all of the singing.  Luther's German Mass called for the 
> pastor to chant and the choir to sing, but it also permitted the
congregation to sing hymns of prayer and praise.
> The immediate problem here was that there weren't that many 
> congregational hymns, so Luther redoubled his efforts to write and 
> distribute new hymns.  In
> 1524  he had already published a hymnal that contained 23 of his 
> hymns.  [Luther had a prolific pen that would write instructional 
> guides (his Small and Large Catechisms), dozen of Sermon Books to help 
> pastors, music, hymns, the 95 thesis, and on and on.  It's really 
> staggering to see the body of work Luther produced.  Basically, 
> everything needed for community worship and private worship in the 
> home, Luther either wrote or translated into German so the lay people 
> had sound Christian doctrine that they could understand in their own 
> language.]
> 
> On a personal note, I was stunned to learn in the 1960's (before 
> Vatican II ???) that my friends who were Roman Catholics were still 
> hearing the Mass in Latin and were not allowed to have Holy Bibles in 
> their own homes.  I grew up in the Lutheran tradition in rural Missouri,
USA.
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't find my reference to Luther's recorder playing.
> Maybe it was a story I was told in Lutheran Sunday School.
> 
> Sacred Music for Lute, edited by Catherine Liddell, Volume 1:
> Renaissance tuning, published by Lyre Music Publications, Fort Worth, 
> TX, copyright 2000:  has a cover art of:  A relief of Martin Luther 
> from the Lutherdenkmal, Eisleben photo: Die Zeit; graphics: John Anglim.
> 
> This is all I'll say on the list.  Please contact me off-list with any 
> further discussions.  Thank you.
> 
> "The Other" Stephen Stubbs
> Champaign, IL   USA
> 
> 
> On 3/16/2012 12:06 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> >> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Martin Luther, circa 
> >> 1500, say
> > "Why
> >> should the Devil have all the best music?", and took his lute and 
> >> recorder
> > to the
> >> German taverns to play his hymns.
> > May I say at least that this is news to me: Luther playing the 
> > recorder, and Luther playing and singing in taverns.
> >
> >> His 'A Might

[LUTE] François Couperin for the theorbo

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear everyone,

I’m pleased to announce that some more music by François Couperin has been
intabulated for the theorbo and has been made available by Christoph Dalitz.
Christoph is an expert on arrangements and adaptations. His arrangementments
of Couperin's music are of intermediate difficulty. You can contact him via
his homepage:
http://music.dalitio.de/instr/lute/couperin-theorbe/index-de.html resp.
http://music.dalitio.de/contact-de.html 

One test page, the table of contents, and prefaces in German and in Englisch
are available for free from
http://www.notendownload.com/8/dpshop/__Couperin%20pour%20Th%E9orbe%20-%2036
%20St%FCcke%20f%FCr%20Theorbe%20%20Laute%20__CD0016GS.sco__8_17.03.html
(click on Testdruck to get a pdf file). Payment as usual, credit cards or
PayPal are accepted.

Best wishes,

Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!

[Mathias Rösel]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for the list! Luther was born on Nov 5th 1483 (baptized one day
later, that's why his given name was Martin). So when he enrolled at
Mansfeld Latin school, he was six years old, no wunderkind. The story of his
95 theses hammered on the Wittenberg church doors on Oct 31st 1517 probably
is a legend. Mind you, the theses were written in Latin. 

As for beer, Luther had his regular pint of Torgau beer which he liked best.
It was part of his maintenance, though, and was delivered at his home in
Wittenberg. When his students and colleagues would gather for supper at his
table, for which occasion there certainly was light beer on the table, he
used to hold talks (Tischreden). At any rate, Luther would certainly not
visit taverns for beer (the more so after his marriage).

Perhaps, though, we are dealing with a peculiarity of the German language.
Tavern may mean at least two things in German. One is Gasthaus, which in
Luther's days was a place where you could eat and drink and possibly rent a
room for the night. The other is Kneipe, which was a bar or a pub, where
people went for a booze.

Wasn't it Mary Burwell's teacher who strictly forbade playing the lute in
taverns? French lutenists who were caned for attempting to do it in English
taverns? That's for Kneipe, I guess ...

Best,

Mathias



> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Stephen Stubbs [mailto:fartrea...@gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. März 2012 22:38
> An: Mathias Rösel
> Betreff: Re: AW: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction!
> 
> On 3/17/2012 4:22 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> > Stephen,
> >
> > translation of sacred texts into vernacular languages may qualify as
> > secularisation in other religions, but regarding Luther, the opposite
> > may considered true. He didn't bring the Bible into the secular, he
> > brought the people to the Holy.
> >
> > To make this point more lute-related, you might compare music in
> > German lute tablature. The number of translations into French tab is
> > increasing, but that doesn't mean that Judenkünig's and Newsidler's
> > music is deprived of its original air. Instead, that beautiful music
> > is opened to masses of players who otherwise had no access.
> Well stated.  I try to be succinct and brief in my posts these days.
> 
> > Mathias
> >
> > PS: It's quite well attested that Luther played the lute, but as for
> > playing in taverns, please take into account that he had been a monk.
> >
> >
> 1489, At age 4 1/2 Luther enrolls in the Mansfield Latin school.
> 1498, studies at the Latin school in Eisenach.
> 1501, May, travels to Erfurt to begin university studies 1502, September,
> awarded the Bachelor of Arts from the University of Erfurt, ranked 13th of
57
> students, and not quite 19 years old.
> 1505, awarded Master of Arts from the University of Erfurt, 2nd of 17
students.
> Luther begins studying to be a lawyer (his father wanted him to be a
lawyer), but
> on July 17th, Luther suddenly enters the Augustinian monastery in Erfurt
to take
> a monk's vows.  (As you pointed
> out.)
> 1507, becomes a Roman Catholic priest and celebrates his first Mass in
May.  He
> returns to the University of Erfurt to study theology.
> 1508, goes to Wittenberg to serve as a temporary teacher in Elector
Frederick's
> struggling university.
> 1509, returns to Erfurt where he becomes both a university teacher and a
> student working on a Doctor of Theology.
> 1510, the trip to Holy Rome that starts Luther thinking very seriously
about the
> Roman Catholic Church.
> 1511, returns to Wittenberg as teacher, preacher, and student working on a
> Doctor of Theology.
> 1512, October, awarded the Doctor of Theology from the University of
> Wittenberg.  Dr. Martin Luther is now a professor of the Bible at
Wittenberg.
> 1515, made supervisor of 11 Augustinian monasteries, and becomes a
traveling
> man.
> 1517, October 31st, hammers his 95 theses to the Wittenberg church door,
> calling for a debate.
> 1521, January 3rd, the final bull from the Pope and Luther is officially
> excommunicated and declared a heretic.
> 1521, April 26th, Luther leaves the Diet of Worms and is kidnapped by
friends.
> This begins Luther's traveling under the disguise of Knight George (who
did carry
> a sword, although Luther never used it), and his secretion in the Wartburg
> fortress as Knight George.
> 1521, May 25th, Emperor Charles V signed the Edict of Worms, condemning
> Luther as an outlaw to be killed or captured on sight. No one was to
print, buy,
> sell, read, or own any of Luther's writings.
> 1522, Luther continues writing, and puts out his study, On Monastic Vows,
> where he reaffirms that only faith in God, not fol