RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[David & his pack of dogs]

Simon, I remember a guide dog trainer at one of the N Y schools admitted to 
taking the blind fold off when he got scared because he could not see anything. 
Another trainer from another guide dog school  said she had a hard time driving 
home after taking the blind fold or night shade as they call it off, because 
her brain was now flooded with information and was basically, overloaded. 
Whether the sighted wearing a blind fold helps or not I cannot say.  What I can 
say is, a sighted person told me loosing her sight terrifies her. As you said, 
the sighted can take off a blind fold and regain their sight, we cannot regain 
our sight. 

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: August 9, 2017 7:44 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

So we go back to what I said earlier. We share the same universe, so we 
just learn to co-exist. Its a simple concept for the most part.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/9/2017 1:57 AM, Simon Fogarty wrote:
> Just to add to this,
>
>  Handing a sighted person a blindfold to let them experience what being blind 
> is like is fine and lets them wear a blindfold and walk in to stuff. However 
> they take the blind fold off and what they just did disappears from their 
> memorys.
>
> I can't get my sighted work colleagues of which there are 12 immediate  to 
> use voiceover or jaws for windows machines.
>
>  Yet if they want assistance with a mac or IOS issue they can't figure 
> out I'm the one that gets the call.
>
>  Wearing a blind fold is crap as they can take it off It might make 
> the warer feel good about themselves but they can't understand the real life 
> changes that may need to be made to live without sight.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2017 10:06 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
> CNET
>
> Kawal,
> That is a novel idea. Hand a sighted person the blindfold and then?
> It does not work.
>
> You are looking in the wrong place. I know someone who was born blind and 
> he has absolutely no idea what the sighted world is like. All that matters to 
> him is that he knows how to co-exist in it.
>
> Like you said the other day... A single tap for "them" is a double tap 
> for us. What more do you want?
>
>
>  From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>"God for you is where you sweep away all the
>mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>
> On 8/7/2017 2:30 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> One thing I will say about this, we have been talking from all prospectives 
>> about using the I phone etc.
>>
>> As many of you know, I work and serve the blind community in my professional 
>> capacity.  There is a project called Online today, and they go in to 
>> people's homes and teach people how to use access Technology.  The 
>> organisation that I work for are in the business of trying to rebuild 
>> people's lives again.  So it's not always about blind users needing to 
>> understand the sighted world.  Sometimes it's about the sighted needing to 
>> know how to live in the blind world.
>>
>> I don't think people have any right to assume that I have been missing 
>> something on the use of these devices but rather that I wanted to know both 
>> sides of the coin.  If I had time i would install the beta but as it is, I 
>> don't and only have time on and off to read the e-mails on this list due to 
>> my work load.  I can go without weeks reading e-mails and most of the time I 
>> end up deleting a lot of stuff just to keep up with what's is going on.
>> Some times I wonder what is the point of me being on this list but I try to 
>> keep up as much as possible.  I have every intention of getting the next I 
>> phone 8.  I don't often read manuals but play with devices and learn that 
>> way as I am rather more of a hands on person and only read manuals as a last 
>> resort.  I'd much rather hear a demo of how the device was being used.  Some 
>> of you will remember me using the Window phones and I never read the 
>> manuals, it was listening

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[E.T.]

   So we go back to what I said earlier. We share the same universe, so 
we just learn to co-exist. Its a simple concept for the most part.


From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/9/2017 1:57 AM, Simon Fogarty wrote:

Just to add to this,

 Handing a sighted person a blindfold to let them experience what being blind 
is like is fine and lets them wear a blindfold and walk in to stuff. However 
they take the blind fold off and what they just did disappears from their 
memorys.

I can't get my sighted work colleagues of which there are 12 immediate  to use 
voiceover or jaws for windows machines.

 Yet if they want assistance with a mac or IOS issue they can't figure out
I'm the one that gets the call.

 Wearing a blind fold is crap as they can take it off
It might make the warer feel good about themselves but they can't understand 
the real life changes that may need to be made to live without sight.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2017 10:06 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Kawal,
That is a novel idea. Hand a sighted person the blindfold and then?
It does not work.

You are looking in the wrong place. I know someone who was born blind and 
he has absolutely no idea what the sighted world is like. All that matters to 
him is that he knows how to co-exist in it.

Like you said the other day... A single tap for "them" is a double tap for 
us. What more do you want?


 From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/7/2017 2:30 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

One thing I will say about this, we have been talking from all prospectives 
about using the I phone etc.

As many of you know, I work and serve the blind community in my professional 
capacity.  There is a project called Online today, and they go in to people's 
homes and teach people how to use access Technology.  The organisation that I 
work for are in the business of trying to rebuild people's lives again.  So 
it's not always about blind users needing to understand the sighted world.  
Sometimes it's about the sighted needing to know how to live in the blind world.

I don't think people have any right to assume that I have been missing 
something on the use of these devices but rather that I wanted to know both 
sides of the coin.  If I had time i would install the beta but as it is, I 
don't and only have time on and off to read the e-mails on this list due to my 
work load.  I can go without weeks reading e-mails and most of the time I end 
up deleting a lot of stuff just to keep up with what's is going on.
Some times I wonder what is the point of me being on this list but I try to 
keep up as much as possible.  I have every intention of getting the next I 
phone 8.  I don't often read manuals but play with devices and learn that way 
as I am rather more of a hands on person and only read manuals as a last 
resort.  I'd much rather hear a demo of how the device was being used.  Some of 
you will remember me using the Window phones and I never read the manuals, it 
was listening to podcasts that helped me get to know the devices so well.

At least I have read your comments and thanks for those.

Kawal.

On 7 Aug 2017, at 17:50, gary-melconian <gmelconian...@gmail.com> wrote:



Totally agree with these points. The more perspective we hav on how sighted do 
things the better we are in competing in their competitive world.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 9:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and I 
totally disagree with you.

These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design.  
As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea of 
what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t shield 
me from items that many screen readers do.
Next, I don’t l

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Vaughan,

 Not if your using the IOS 11 beta,
However I did find that if you can use a Bluetooth keyboard and get in to the 
edit mode on the apps with your finger as you would normally then double tap on 
the space bar of the Keyboard I managed to get the delete option to happen 

 So it is still there just notb visible to the voiceover system. -Original 
Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Vaughn Brown
Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2017 12:45 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hi,

I am trying to delete apps from my iPhone. The old tapping pattern doesn't seem 
to work any more.
Tahnk you for deconfusing me... LOL
Vaughn

On 8/7/17, Terje Strømberg <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Screen Curtain will be a feature for sighted people while driving a car.
> The apple car system with siri. Can be turned off of course.
>
> Take care
>
>
>> Den 7. aug. 2017 kl. 10.27 skrev Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com>:
>>
>> Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything 
>> the blind way!
>>
>> I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers 
>> and in a lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off 
>> instead they just mute the computers,
>>
>> If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, 
>> your actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.
>>
>> I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup 
>> their phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.
>>
>> Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find 
>> or should be seeing.
>> But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
>> CNET
>>
>>We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using 
>> mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind 
>> perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take 
>> comfort in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are 
>> apprehensive about the changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three 
>> and wait until we get the blind perspective on Applevis.
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>>   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>>   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>>   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>>   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things 
>>> with Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the 
>>> operating system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need 
>>> to keep up to date with what's going on but why is it always a 
>>> sighted prospective, as I will learn to do these things with voice 
>>> over as I simply can't use the I phone a sighted way.  I'll give you 
>>> an example.  Most recently when my father got his I phone, he asked 
>>> me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not understand 
>>> his question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand 
>>> what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the day 
>>> at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, 
>>> and thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can 
>>> only explain it in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm 
>>> trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with voice over 
>>> and I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I 
>>> have not and that is why when I read these articles, there is something 
>>> missing, my sight and the frustration begins from my side.
>>>
>>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am 
>>> reading these articles not because I'm not interested, but because I 
>>> can't do it in the sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  
>>> I will read everything but the lack of sight is making me miss what 
>>> I need to do to use the phone in the way my sighted peers do use it.
>>>
>>> Kawal.
>>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <m

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

Just to add to this,

 Handing a sighted person a blindfold to let them experience what being blind 
is like is fine and lets them wear a blindfold and walk in to stuff. However 
they take the blind fold off and what they just did disappears from their 
memorys.

I can't get my sighted work colleagues of which there are 12 immediate  to use 
voiceover or jaws for windows machines.

 Yet if they want assistance with a mac or IOS issue they can't figure out 
I'm the one that gets the call.

 Wearing a blind fold is crap as they can take it off 
It might make the warer feel good about themselves but they can't understand 
the real life changes that may need to be made to live without sight.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2017 10:06 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Kawal,
That is a novel idea. Hand a sighted person the blindfold and then? 
It does not work.

You are looking in the wrong place. I know someone who was born blind and 
he has absolutely no idea what the sighted world is like. All that matters to 
him is that he knows how to co-exist in it.

Like you said the other day... A single tap for "them" is a double tap for 
us. What more do you want?


 From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/7/2017 2:30 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> One thing I will say about this, we have been talking from all prospectives 
> about using the I phone etc.
>
> As many of you know, I work and serve the blind community in my professional 
> capacity.  There is a project called Online today, and they go in to people's 
> homes and teach people how to use access Technology.  The organisation that I 
> work for are in the business of trying to rebuild people's lives again.  So 
> it's not always about blind users needing to understand the sighted world.  
> Sometimes it's about the sighted needing to know how to live in the blind 
> world.
>
> I don't think people have any right to assume that I have been missing 
> something on the use of these devices but rather that I wanted to know both 
> sides of the coin.  If I had time i would install the beta but as it is, I 
> don't and only have time on and off to read the e-mails on this list due to 
> my work load.  I can go without weeks reading e-mails and most of the time I 
> end up deleting a lot of stuff just to keep up with what's is going on.
> Some times I wonder what is the point of me being on this list but I try to 
> keep up as much as possible.  I have every intention of getting the next I 
> phone 8.  I don't often read manuals but play with devices and learn that way 
> as I am rather more of a hands on person and only read manuals as a last 
> resort.  I'd much rather hear a demo of how the device was being used.  Some 
> of you will remember me using the Window phones and I never read the manuals, 
> it was listening to podcasts that helped me get to know the devices so well.
>
> At least I have read your comments and thanks for those.
>
> Kawal.
>
> On 7 Aug 2017, at 17:50, gary-melconian <gmelconian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Totally agree with these points. The more perspective we hav on how sighted 
>> do things the better we are in competing in their competitive world.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 9:00 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>
>> Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and 
>> I totally disagree with you.
>>
>> These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
>> between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
>> totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their 
>> design.  As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a 
>> better idea of what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI 
>> in general.  Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a 
>> more list form interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format 
>> and doesn’t shield me from items that many screen readers do.
>>  Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
>> interested in one metho

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

Hey scott,

What's a blind bubble?

Is that one where the bubble is blacked out so you can't see out or in?

 Kind of be cool if you could roll it down the street and bump into shit!



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Tuesday, 8 August 2017 4:01 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Last time I checked, we live in a sited world.  That’s pretty much the answer 
to your sited perspective question.  I for one prefer this perspective because 
I do.not live in a blind bubble.

That’s me though, I know there’s a lot of different viewpoints out there.

> On Aug 6, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his 
> I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not 
> understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand 
> what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work 
> as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if 
> anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the 
> concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to 
> concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  
> I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I read these 
> articles, there is something missing, my sight and the frustration begins 
> from my side.
> 
> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
> way my sighted peers do use it.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Kawal,
>> 
>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
>> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>> VoiceOver.  
>> 
>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>> 
>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
>> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
>> delete/ignore them.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>> To: Macvisionaries
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
>> CNET
>> 
>> Hello Mark.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
>> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
>> this.
>> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as 
>> I will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my 
>> I phone as a sighted person can.
>

Re: Deleting apps (was Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET)

[Vaughn Brown]

Thank you E.T. That did the trick.
Vaughn

On 8/7/17, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
> Double tap and hold with one finger then when you hear the tone,
> while still holding, split tap once with another finger.
>
>  From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>"God for you is where you sweep away all the
>mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>
> On 8/7/2017 5:44 PM, Vaughn Brown wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am trying to delete apps from my iPhone. The old tapping pattern
>> doesn't seem to work any more.
>> Tahnk you for deconfusing me... LOL
>> Vaughn
>>
>> On 8/7/17, Terje Strømberg <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The Screen Curtain will be a feature for sighted people while driving a
>>> car.
>>> The apple car system with siri. Can be turned off of course.
>>>
>>> Take care
>>>
>>>
>>>> Den 7. aug. 2017 kl. 10.27 skrev Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com>:
>>>>
>>>> Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything
>>>> the
>>>> blind way!
>>>>
>>>> I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers
>>>> and
>>>> in a lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead
>>>> they
>>>> just mute the computers,
>>>>
>>>> If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover,
>>>> your
>>>> actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.
>>>>
>>>> I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their
>>>> phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or
>>>> should be seeing.
>>>> But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>>>> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>>>
>>>>We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using
>>>> mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind
>>>> perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take
>>>> comfort
>>>> in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about
>>>> the
>>>> changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get
>>>> the
>>>> blind perspective on Applevis.
>>>>
>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>>>>   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>>>>   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>>>>   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>>>>   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
>>>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>>>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things
>>>>> with
>>>>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the
>>>>> operating
>>>>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to
>>>>> date with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective,
>>>>> as
>>>>> I will learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use
>>>>> the
>>>>> I phone a sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when
>>>>> my
>>>>> father got his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to
>>>>> him
>>>>> that I could not understand his question because I did not use Zoom
>>>>> and
>>>>> could not understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted
>>>>> people
>>>>> most of the day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind
>>>>> person there, and thus if anyone wants to know anything about the
>>>>> phone,
>>>>> I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm
>>>>> trying to say, I am only able to concept the I

Deleting apps (was Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET)

[E.T.]

   Double tap and hold with one finger then when you hear the tone, 
while still holding, split tap once with another finger.


From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/7/2017 5:44 PM, Vaughn Brown wrote:

Hi,

I am trying to delete apps from my iPhone. The old tapping pattern
doesn't seem to work any more.
Tahnk you for deconfusing me... LOL
Vaughn

On 8/7/17, Terje Strømberg <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Screen Curtain will be a feature for sighted people while driving a car.
The apple car system with siri. Can be turned off of course.

Take care



Den 7. aug. 2017 kl. 10.27 skrev Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com>:

Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything the
blind way!

I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers and
in a lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead they
just mute the computers,

If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, your
actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.

I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their
phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.

Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or
should be seeing.
But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

   We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using
mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind
perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort
in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the
changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the
blind perspective on Applevis.

From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with
Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating
system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to
date with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as
I will learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the
I phone a sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my
father got his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him
that I could not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and
could not understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people
most of the day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind
person there, and thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone,
I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm
trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with voice over and
I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not
and that is why when I read these articles, there is something missing,
my sight and the frustration begins from my side.

I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading
these articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it
in the sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read
everything but the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to
use the phone in the way my sighted peers do use it.

Kawal.

On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:

Hello Kawal,

First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you,
I am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac
OS via VoiceOver.

Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone
updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology
news that, sighted or not, affects us all.

Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will
continue to post the articles to the list and those who are not
interested can simply delete/ignore them.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
To: Macvisionaries
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 -
CNET

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is
going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than know

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Vaughn Brown]

Hi,

I am trying to delete apps from my iPhone. The old tapping pattern
doesn't seem to work any more.
Tahnk you for deconfusing me... LOL
Vaughn

On 8/7/17, Terje Strømberg <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Screen Curtain will be a feature for sighted people while driving a car.
> The apple car system with siri. Can be turned off of course.
>
> Take care
>
>
>> Den 7. aug. 2017 kl. 10.27 skrev Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com>:
>>
>> Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything the
>> blind way!
>>
>> I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers and
>> in a lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead they
>> just mute the computers,
>>
>> If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, your
>> actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.
>>
>> I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their
>> phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.
>>
>> Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or
>> should be seeing.
>> But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>
>>We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using
>> mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind
>> perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort
>> in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the
>> changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the
>> blind perspective on Applevis.
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>>   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>>   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>>   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>>   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with
>>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating
>>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to
>>> date with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as
>>> I will learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the
>>> I phone a sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my
>>> father got his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him
>>> that I could not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and
>>> could not understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people
>>> most of the day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind
>>> person there, and thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone,
>>> I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm
>>> trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with voice over and
>>> I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not
>>> and that is why when I read these articles, there is something missing,
>>> my sight and the frustration begins from my side.
>>>
>>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading
>>> these articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it
>>> in the sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read
>>> everything but the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to
>>> use the phone in the way my sighted peers do use it.
>>>
>>> Kawal.
>>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Kawal,
>>>>
>>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you,
>>>> I am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac
>>>> OS via VoiceOver.
>>>>
>>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone
>>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology
>>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will
>>>> continue

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Terje Strømberg]

The Screen Curtain will be a feature for sighted people while driving a car. 
The apple car system with siri. Can be turned off of course.

Take care


> Den 7. aug. 2017 kl. 10.27 skrev Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com>:
> 
> Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything the 
> blind way!
> 
> I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers and in a 
> lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead they just 
> mute the computers,
> 
> If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, your 
> actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.
> 
> I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their 
> phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.
> 
> Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or 
> should be seeing.
> But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
>We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using mainstream 
> devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind perspectives, 
> appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort in knowing we 
> will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the changes, do not 
> yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the blind perspective on 
> Applevis.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
>> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
>> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
>> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got 
>> his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could 
>> not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not 
>> understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the 
>> day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and 
>> thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it 
>> in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only 
>> able to concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the 
>> sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I 
>> read these articles, there is something missing, my sight and the 
>> frustration begins from my side.
>> 
>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
>> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
>> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
>> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in 
>> the way my sighted peers do use it.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Kawal,
>>> 
>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I 
>>> am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>>> VoiceOver.
>>> 
>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>> 
>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue 
>>> to post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can 
>>> simply delete/ignore them.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
>>> CNET

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[E.T.]

Kawal,
   That is a novel idea. Hand a sighted person the blindfold and then? 
It does not work.


   You are looking in the wrong place. I know someone who was born 
blind and he has absolutely no idea what the sighted world is like. All 
that matters to him is that he knows how to co-exist in it.


   Like you said the other day... A single tap for "them" is a double 
tap for us. What more do you want?



From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/7/2017 2:30 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

One thing I will say about this, we have been talking from all prospectives 
about using the I phone etc.

As many of you know, I work and serve the blind community in my professional 
capacity.  There is a project called Online today, and they go in to people's 
homes and teach people how to use access Technology.  The organisation that I 
work for are in the business of trying to rebuild people's lives again.  So 
it's not always about blind users needing to understand the sighted world.  
Sometimes it's about the sighted needing to know how to live in the blind world.

I don't think people have any right to assume that I have been missing 
something on the use of these devices but rather that I wanted to know both 
sides of the coin.  If I had time i would install the beta but as it is, I 
don't and only have time on and off to read the e-mails on this list due to my 
work load.  I can go without weeks reading e-mails and most of the time I end 
up deleting a lot of stuff just to keep up with what's is going on.
Some times I wonder what is the point of me being on this list but I try to 
keep up as much as possible.  I have every intention of getting the next I 
phone 8.  I don't often read manuals but play with devices and learn that way 
as I am rather more of a hands on person and only read manuals as a last 
resort.  I'd much rather hear a demo of how the device was being used.  Some of 
you will remember me using the Window phones and I never read the manuals, it 
was listening to podcasts that helped me get to know the devices so well.

At least I have read your comments and thanks for those.

Kawal.

On 7 Aug 2017, at 17:50, gary-melconian <gmelconian...@gmail.com> wrote:



Totally agree with these points. The more perspective we hav on how sighted do 
things the better we are in competing in their competitive world.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 9:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and I 
totally disagree with you.

These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design.  
As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea of 
what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t shield 
me from items that many screen readers do.
Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
interested in one method of doing things as another as I have to support sited 
people.

I think fragmenting us even further like that only serves to harm us as in all 
things, if you’re not interested use your delete key or build appropriate 
filters but I think a lot of us on list are very interested in this sort of 
article.  I’m very interested in new features.  Good thing with Apple is a new 
feature is a new feature, it’s not a new feature for the blind or a new sited 
feature, it’s just a feature.  Voice Over in Apple’s world is just a feature to 
be developed like all others.  I like that model.




On Aug 6, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindn

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

One thing I will say about this, we have been talking from all prospectives 
about using the I phone etc.

As many of you know, I work and serve the blind community in my professional 
capacity.  There is a project called Online today, and they go in to people's 
homes and teach people how to use access Technology.  The organisation that I 
work for are in the business of trying to rebuild people's lives again.  So 
it's not always about blind users needing to understand the sighted world.  
Sometimes it's about the sighted needing to know how to live in the blind world.

I don't think people have any right to assume that I have been missing 
something on the use of these devices but rather that I wanted to know both 
sides of the coin.  If I had time i would install the beta but as it is, I 
don't and only have time on and off to read the e-mails on this list due to my 
work load.  I can go without weeks reading e-mails and most of the time I end 
up deleting a lot of stuff just to keep up with what's is going on. 
Some times I wonder what is the point of me being on this list but I try to 
keep up as much as possible.  I have every intention of getting the next I 
phone 8.  I don't often read manuals but play with devices and learn that way 
as I am rather more of a hands on person and only read manuals as a last 
resort.  I'd much rather hear a demo of how the device was being used.  Some of 
you will remember me using the Window phones and I never read the manuals, it 
was listening to podcasts that helped me get to know the devices so well.

At least I have read your comments and thanks for those.

Kawal.

On 7 Aug 2017, at 17:50, gary-melconian <gmelconian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Totally agree with these points. The more perspective we hav on how sighted 
> do things the better we are in competing in their competitive world.  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 9:00 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
> Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and 
> I totally disagree with you.
> 
> These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
> between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
> totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design. 
>  As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea 
> of what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
> Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
> interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t 
> shield me from items that many screen readers do.
>   Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
> interested in one method of doing things as another as I have to support 
> sited people.
> 
> I think fragmenting us even further like that only serves to harm us as in 
> all things, if you’re not interested use your delete key or build appropriate 
> filters but I think a lot of us on list are very interested in this sort of 
> article.  I’m very interested in new features.  Good thing with Apple is a 
> new feature is a new feature, it’s not a new feature for the blind or a new 
> sited feature, it’s just a feature.  Voice Over in Apple’s world is just a 
> feature to be developed like all others.  I like that model.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Mark.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
>> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[gary-melconian]

Totally agree with these points. The more perspective we hav on how sighted do 
things the better we are in competing in their competitive world.  

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 9:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and I 
totally disagree with you.

These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design.  
As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea of 
what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t shield 
me from items that many screen readers do.
Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
interested in one method of doing things as another as I have to support sited 
people.

I think fragmenting us even further like that only serves to harm us as in all 
things, if you’re not interested use your delete key or build appropriate 
filters but I think a lot of us on list are very interested in this sort of 
article.  I’m very interested in new features.  Good thing with Apple is a new 
feature is a new feature, it’s not a new feature for the blind or a new sited 
feature, it’s just a feature.  Voice Over in Apple’s world is just a feature to 
be developed like all others.  I like that model.
 


> On Aug 6, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 
>> 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know 
>> just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest 
>> Apple has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle 
>> tweaks, but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly 
>> take some getting used to.
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that 
>> now it's called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works 
>> in the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
>> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
>> the camera or view your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>> 
>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
>> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
>> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
>> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
>> want. It's simply not going to work.
>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>> 
>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
&g

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Scott Granados]

I agree, I thank Mark for his latitude in the topics of articles he allows on 
list.


> On Aug 7, 2017, at 4:22 AM, Simon Fogarty <si...@blinky-net.com> wrote:
> 
> Mark 
> 
> I'm going to say thanks for sending these articals out.
> 
> It's great to hear what is coming in the new releases 
> 
> Please yes keep sending them to us.
> 
> As to those that don't like it.
> 
> Build a bridge and get over it!
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M. Taylor
> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:17 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
> Hello Kawal,
> 
> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
> VoiceOver.  
> 
> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology news 
> that, sighted or not, affects us all.
> 
> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
> delete/ignore them.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
> To: Macvisionaries
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
>> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
>> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
>> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
>> but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some 
>> getting used to.
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now 
>> it's called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in 
>> the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
>> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
>> the camera or view your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>> 
>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
>> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
>> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
>> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
>> want. It's simply not going to work.
>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>> 
>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS
>> 11 in June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it 
>> too; albeit in

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Donna Goodin]

Very well said, Scott.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Aug 7, 2017, at 10:59 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and 
> I totally disagree with you.
> 
> These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
> between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
> totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design. 
>  As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea 
> of what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
> Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
> interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t 
> shield me from items that many screen readers do.
>   Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
> interested in one method of doing things as another as I have to support 
> sited people.
> 
> I think fragmenting us even further like that only serves to harm us as in 
> all things, if you’re not interested use your delete key or build appropriate 
> filters but I think a lot of us on list are very interested in this sort of 
> article.  I’m very interested in new features.  Good thing with Apple is a 
> new feature is a new feature, it’s not a new feature for the blind or a new 
> sited feature, it’s just a feature.  Voice Over in Apple’s world is just a 
> feature to be developed like all others.  I like that model.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Mark.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
>> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
>> this.
>> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as 
>> I will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my 
>> I phone as a sighted person can.
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor  wrote:
>>> 
>>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>> With iOS 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to
>>> know just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple
>>> has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, but
>>> there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some getting
>>> used to. 
>>> 
>>> Notification Center is no more
>>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now it's
>>> called Cover Sheet.
>>> 
>>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in the
>>> same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take action or clear
>>> them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch the camera or view
>>> your Today panel.
>>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and
>>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>>> 
>>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching
>>> When Apple announced the iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a
>>> pressure sensitive screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly
>>> switch between apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you want. It's
>>> simply not going to work.
>>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>>> 
>>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
>>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>>> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 11 in
>>> June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it too; albeit
>>> in very limited situations.
>>> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album instead of
>>> tapping around. 
>>> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts to
>>> hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag the photo
>>> to the tab). 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Scott Granados]

Last time I checked, we live in a sited world.  That’s pretty much the answer 
to your sited perspective question.  I for one prefer this perspective because 
I do.not live in a blind bubble.

That’s me though, I know there’s a lot of different viewpoints out there.

> On Aug 6, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his 
> I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not 
> understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand 
> what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work 
> as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if 
> anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the 
> concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to 
> concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  
> I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I read these 
> articles, there is something missing, my sight and the frustration begins 
> from my side.
> 
> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
> way my sighted peers do use it.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Kawal,
>> 
>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
>> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>> VoiceOver.  
>> 
>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>> 
>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
>> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
>> delete/ignore them.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>> To: Macvisionaries
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>> 
>> Hello Mark.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
>> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
>> this.
>> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as 
>> I will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my 
>> I phone as a sighted person can.
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
>>> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
>>> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
>>> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is ful

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Scott Granados]

Kawal, I think you’ve completely missed the point of what Apple is doing and I 
totally disagree with you.

These articles are critical because there isn’t that much of a difference 
between our use cases and the sited community.  Apple doesn’t view us as a 
totally different group.  We’re not shielded from the visual in their design.  
As you know the IOS or OS X usage model gives we blind users a better idea of 
what’s physically on the screen, object placement and the GUI in general.  
Unlike a JFW where the screens are totally repackaged in to a more list form 
interface Voice Over sticks more to the actual screen format and doesn’t shield 
me from items that many screen readers do.
Next, I don’t live in a vacuum of only blind people.  I’m just as 
interested in one method of doing things as another as I have to support sited 
people.

I think fragmenting us even further like that only serves to harm us as in all 
things, if you’re not interested use your delete key or build appropriate 
filters but I think a lot of us on list are very interested in this sort of 
article.  I’m very interested in new features.  Good thing with Apple is a new 
feature is a new feature, it’s not a new feature for the blind or a new sited 
feature, it’s just a feature.  Voice Over in Apple’s world is just a feature to 
be developed like all others.  I like that model.
 


> On Aug 6, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>> With iOS 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to
>> know just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple
>> has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, but
>> there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some getting
>> used to. 
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now it's
>> called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in the
>> same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take action or clear
>> them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch the camera or view
>> your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and
>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>> 
>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching
>> When Apple announced the iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a
>> pressure sensitive screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly
>> switch between apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you want. It's
>> simply not going to work.
>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>> 
>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 11 in
>> June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it too; albeit
>> in very limited situations.
>> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album instead of
>> tapping around. 
>> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts to
>> hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag the photo
>> to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, right?
>> 
>> NFC is open for all
>> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with the
>> release of iOS 11. 
>> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Sharon Hooley]

I would say that we can look at both ends, both visual and non-visual aspects 
of this technology.


> On Aug 6, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Anders Holmberg <and...@pipkrokodil.se> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> One perspective is to read the article and then you could be able to help 
> your sighted friends and family.
> 
> Just my thought.
> Most of the articles are saved here in my saved messages and i will read them 
> as soon i feel for it.
> /A
> 
>> 6 aug. 2017 kl. 18:33 skrev Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com>:
>> 
>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
>> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
>> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
>> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got 
>> his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could 
>> not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not 
>> understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the 
>> day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and 
>> thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it 
>> in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only 
>> able to concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the 
>> sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I 
>> read these articles, there is something missing, my sight and the 
>> frustration begins from my side.
>> 
>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
>> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
>> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
>> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in 
>> the way my sighted peers do use it.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Kawal,
>>> 
>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I 
>>> am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>>> VoiceOver.  
>>> 
>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>> 
>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue 
>>> to post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can 
>>> simply delete/ignore them.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>> 
>>> Hello Mark.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to 
>>> understand, what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to 
>>> understand all this.
>>> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as 
>>> I will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use 
>>> my I phone as a sighted pers

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[CHUCK REICHEL]

Hi Simon,

Agree 100%.
Dive in to the beta and start learning the new stuff! :)
GOD for you is the Creator of the engineers that produced Apple!
C.R.


On Aug 7, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Simon Fogarty wrote:

> Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything the 
> blind way!
> 
> I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers and in a 
> lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead they just 
> mute the computers,
> 
> If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, your 
> actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.
> 
> I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their 
> phones or tablets be it an IOS device or android.
> 
> Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or 
> should be seeing.
> But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
>We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using mainstream 
> devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind perspectives, 
> appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort in knowing we 
> will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the changes, do not 
> yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the blind perspective on 
> Applevis.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
>> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
>> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
>> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got 
>> his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could 
>> not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not 
>> understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the 
>> day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and 
>> thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it 
>> in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only 
>> able to concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the 
>> sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I 
>> read these articles, there is something missing, my sight and the 
>> frustration begins from my side.
>> 
>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
>> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
>> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
>> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in 
>> the way my sighted peers do use it.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Kawal,
>>> 
>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I 
>>> am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>>> VoiceOver.
>>> 
>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>> 
>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue 
>>> to post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can 
>>> simply delete/ignore them.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
>>> CNET
>>> 
>>> Hello Mark.
&

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

Or try changing the world so that everyone else has to do everything the blind 
way!

I can't get my work colleagues to use jaws or voiceover on computers and in a 
lot of cases I can't get them to turn these products off instead they just mute 
the computers,

If you think about what you are doing with the phone using voiceover, your 
actually not doing a lot differently to that of a sighted user.

 I have to teach or instruct sighted users how to use and or setup their phones 
or tablets be it an IOS device or android.

Sometimes it takes a bit of work telling them what they have to find or should 
be seeing.
But it's what makes me a very valuable member of my team.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:45 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using mainstream 
devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind perspectives, 
appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort in knowing we will 
not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the changes, do not yup0grade 
for a month or three and wait until we get the blind perspective on Applevis.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
   "God for you is where you sweep away all the
   mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
   our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
   and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his 
> I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not 
> understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand 
> what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work 
> as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if 
> anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the 
> concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to 
> concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  
> I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I read these 
> articles, there is something missing, my sight and the frustration begins 
> from my side.
>
> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
> way my sighted peers do use it.
>
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Kawal,
>>
>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
>> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>> VoiceOver.
>>
>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>
>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
>> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
>> delete/ignore them.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>> To: Macvisionaries
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - 
>> CNET
>>
>> Hello Mark.
>>
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>>

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

Mark 

I'm going to say thanks for sending these articals out.

It's great to hear what is coming in the new releases 

 Please yes keep sending them to us.

As to those that don't like it.

 Build a bridge and get over it!
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of M. Taylor
Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 4:17 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hello Kawal,

First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am a 
visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
VoiceOver.  

Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone updated 
on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology news that, 
sighted or not, affects us all.

Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
delete/ignore them.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
To: Macvisionaries
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
> but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some 
> getting used to.
> 
> Notification Center is no more
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now 
> it's called Cover Sheet.
> 
> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in 
> the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
> the camera or view your Today panel.
> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
> 
> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
> want. It's simply not going to work.
> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
> 
> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS
> 11 in June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it 
> too; albeit in very limited situations.
> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album 
> instead of tapping around.
> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts 
> to hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag 
> the photo to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, 
> right?
> 
> NFC is open for all
> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with 
> the release of iOS 11.
> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC 
> capabili

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Simon Fogarty]

I'm also a blind person and I also use only voiceover to access / utilise my 
iPhone and iPads feature set.

 I will thank mark for sending these emails out as they are inlightening to me 
about the features that are coming in the next device and or operating system,

 
Just because you use voiceover to access the device doesn't mean  you can't 
think about how the majority of the worlds iPhone users will benefit from it's 
new features,

 Try thinking outside your own comfort zone and maybe try thinking about how 
these new features will benefit you with vo rather than you don't know how to 
use them because it's not being described with vo functionality.

 Remember that we the blind and visually impaired users of these devices are a 
very small minority world wide, 
why would someone write an article for a publication which is aimed at all 
readers but only write the article for a very small minority group?

Remember most iPhone or IOS users on this planet probably haven't heard of 
voiceover let alone tried to see what it does or how their device works with it.

I'd suggest if you wish to know how these new features will work with voiceover 
then install the IOS 11 public beta and use it, as that is a great way to find 
out how it's working with adaptive technology.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
Sent: Monday, 7 August 2017 2:44 AM
To: Macvisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
> but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some 
> getting used to.
> 
> Notification Center is no more
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now 
> it's called Cover Sheet.
> 
> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in 
> the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
> the camera or view your Today panel.
> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
> 
> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
> want. It's simply not going to work.
> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
> 
> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 
> 11 in June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it 
> too; albeit in very limited situations.
> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album 
> instead of tapping around.
> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts 
> to hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag 
> the photo to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[lenron brown]

These articles are great and show us what's coming down the pipe line.
We have access to a main stream device, why would there just be things
shown from a blindness point of view? Matter a fact that will never
happen before the device is released, because that's not what the main
stream focuses on.

On 8/6/17, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering that blindness, including low vision to as good as 20/200
> (6/60), which uses screen enlargement and not usually VoiceOver, is
> approximately 0.5% of the population, I would say that the sighted
> population shares the world with us, often grudgingly. If one wants things
> to be announced and explained from the blindness perspective, there are a
> few products which do most, if not all, of what the iPhone does, that are
> made for the blind. These products are bulky and expensive, but they are
> focused on our tiny market.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +61 488 988 936
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7/08/2017, at 02:44, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>   We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using
>> mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind
>> perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort
>> in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the
>> changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the
>> blind perspective on Applevis.
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>>  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>>  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>>  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>>  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with
>>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating
>>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to
>>> date with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as
>>> I will learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the
>>> I phone a sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my
>>> father got his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him
>>> that I could not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and
>>> could not understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people
>>> most of the day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind
>>> person there, and thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone,
>>> I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm
>>> trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with voice over and
>>> I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not
>>> and that is why when I read these articles, there is something missing,
>>> my sight and the frustration begins from my side.
>>>
>>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading
>>> these articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it
>>> in the sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read
>>> everything but the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to
>>> use the phone in the way my sighted peers do use it.
>>>
>>> Kawal.
>>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Kawal,
>>>>
>>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you,
>>>> I am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac
>>>> OS via VoiceOver.
>>>>
>>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone
>>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology
>>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will
>>>> continue to post the articles to the list and those who are not
>>>> interested can simply delete/ignore them.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>>> 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[David Chittenden]

Considering that blindness, including low vision to as good as 20/200 (6/60), 
which uses screen enlargement and not usually VoiceOver, is approximately 0.5% 
of the population, I would say that the sighted population shares the world 
with us, often grudgingly. If one wants things to be announced and explained 
from the blindness perspective, there are a few products which do most, if not 
all, of what the iPhone does, that are made for the blind. These products are 
bulky and expensive, but they are focused on our tiny market.

Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +61 488 988 936
Sent from my iPhone

> On 7/08/2017, at 02:44, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
>   We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using mainstream 
> devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind perspectives, 
> appreciate the advancements coming our way and take comfort in knowing we 
> will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive about the changes, do not 
> yup0grade for a month or three and wait until we get the blind perspective on 
> Applevis.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
>> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
>> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
>> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got 
>> his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could 
>> not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not 
>> understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the 
>> day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and 
>> thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it 
>> in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only 
>> able to concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the 
>> sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I 
>> read these articles, there is something missing, my sight and the 
>> frustration begins from my side.
>> 
>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
>> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
>> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
>> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in 
>> the way my sighted peers do use it.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Kawal,
>>> 
>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I 
>>> am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>>> VoiceOver.
>>> 
>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>> 
>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue 
>>> to post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can 
>>> simply delete/ignore them.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>> 
>>> Hello Mark.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>&

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Nancy Badger]

Also, a lot of us on the list are partially sighted. I use voiceover, and 
sometimes I still use my eyes with the colors inverted.

Nancy Badger, Ph.D
Executive Director of Counseling
Old Dominion University
Sent from my iPhone with dictation software. Please excuse spelling errors.

> On Aug 6, 2017, at 1:08 PM, Anders Holmberg <and...@pipkrokodil.se> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> One perspective is to read the article and then you could be able to help 
> your sighted friends and family.
> 
> Just my thought.
> Most of the articles are saved here in my saved messages and i will read them 
> as soon i feel for it.
> /A
> 
>> 6 aug. 2017 kl. 18:33 skrev Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com>:
>> 
>> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
>> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
>> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
>> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
>> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
>> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got 
>> his I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could 
>> not understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not 
>> understand what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the 
>> day at work as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and 
>> thus if anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it 
>> in the concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only 
>> able to concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the 
>> sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I 
>> read these articles, there is something missing, my sight and the 
>> frustration begins from my side.
>> 
>> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
>> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
>> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
>> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in 
>> the way my sighted peers do use it.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Kawal,
>>> 
>>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I 
>>> am a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>>> VoiceOver.  
>>> 
>>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>>> 
>>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue 
>>> to post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can 
>>> simply delete/ignore them.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>>> To: Macvisionaries
>>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>>> 
>>> Hello Mark.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to 
>>> understand, what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to 
>>> understand all this.
>>> No doubt I'll have started a fr

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
One perspective is to read the article and then you could be able to help your 
sighted friends and family.

Just my thought.
Most of the articles are saved here in my saved messages and i will read them 
as soon i feel for it.
/A

> 6 aug. 2017 kl. 18:33 skrev Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com>:
> 
> What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with 
> Voice Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating 
> system came out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date 
> with what's going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will 
> learn to do these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a 
> sighted way.  I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his 
> I phone, he asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not 
> understand his question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand 
> what he wanted to know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work 
> as well as with my family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if 
> anyone wants to know anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the 
> concept of voice over.  That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to 
> concept the I phone with voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  
> I would if I had seen but I have not and that is why when I read these 
> articles, there is something missing, my sight and the frustration begins 
> from my side.
> 
> I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
> articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
> sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
> the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
> way my sighted peers do use it.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Kawal,
>> 
>> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
>> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
>> VoiceOver.  
>> 
>> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
>> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology 
>> news that, sighted or not, affects us all.
>> 
>> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
>> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
>> delete/ignore them.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
>> To: Macvisionaries
>> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>> 
>> Hello Mark.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is 
>> going to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a 
>> sighted person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the 
>> phone in the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using 
>> Voice Over.  So all these things would be better if we were going to learn 
>> how to do these things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind 
>> users.  If I wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted 
>> person did, then I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these 
>> articles in my opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many 
>> others will say other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a 
>> blind person using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight 
>> and can use the phone in the main stream kind of way.
>> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
>> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
>> this.
>> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as 
>> I will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my 
>> I phone as a sighted person can.
>> Kawal.
>>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
>>> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
>>> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
>>> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
>>> 

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[M. Taylor]

You are very welcome, Donna and, thank you.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 8:05 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

OK, I'll be the first to disagree. :)

It's true we're blind users, but we can't just put our heads in the sand and be 
ignorant of changes that impact sighted users.  Also, some of those changes, as 
with the notification and control centers will most certainly impact us.  We 
just don't know yet how VO users will interact with them.

Thank you, Mark, for posting the articles.  I found them to be interesting and 
informative.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Aug 6, 2017, at 9:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu <kgli...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 
>> 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know 
>> just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest 
>> Apple has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle 
>> tweaks, but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly 
>> take some getting used to.
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that 
>> now it's called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works 
>> in the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
>> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
>> the camera or view your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>> 
>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
>> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
>> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
>> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
>> want. It's simply not going to work.
>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>> 
>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled 
>> iOS 11 in June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has 
>> it too; albeit in very limited situations.
>> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album 
>> instead of tapping around.
>> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts 
>> to hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag 
>> the photo to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. 
>> Neat, right?
>> 
>> NFC is open for all
>> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with 
>> the release of iOS 11.
>> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC 
>> capabilities instead of keeping it locked to just Apple Pay.
>> As developers begin to release updates for apps, you will undoubtedly 
>> se

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[E.T.]

   We share the univers with the sighted population. We are using 
mainstream devices. Instead of making noise about the lack of blind 
perspectives, appreciate the advancements coming our way and take 
comfort in knowing we will not be left behind. If you are apprehensive 
about the changes, do not yup0grade for a month or three and wait until 
we get the blind perspective on Applevis.


From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/6/2017 9:33 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with Voice 
Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating system came 
out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date with what's 
going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will learn to do 
these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a sighted way.  
I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his I phone, he 
asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not understand his 
question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand what he wanted to 
know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work as well as with my 
family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if anyone wants to know 
anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  
That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with 
voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I 
have not and that is why when I read these articles, there is something 
missing, my sight and the frustration begins from my side.

I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
way my sighted peers do use it.

Kawal.

On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:

Hello Kawal,

First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am a 
visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
VoiceOver.

Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone updated 
on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology news that, 
sighted or not, affects us all.

Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
delete/ignore them.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
To: Macvisionaries
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.

On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:

CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11
expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just
what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has
to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks,
but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some
getting used to.

Notification Center is no more
Jason Cipriani/CNET
Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now
it's called Cover Sheet.

Cover Sheet looks a lot like the st

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

What I'm trying to say in a nut shell, I want to do all these things with Voice 
Over and if I knew how to do these new things before the operating system came 
out, I'd be very happy.  I also know we need to keep up to date with what's 
going on but why is it always a sighted prospective, as I will learn to do 
these things with voice over as I simply can't use the I phone a sighted way.  
I'll give you an example.  Most recently when my father got his I phone, he 
asked me something about zoom.  I said to him that I could not understand his 
question because I did not use Zoom and could not understand what he wanted to 
know.  I am around sighted people most of the day at work as well as with my 
family as no one is a blind person there, and thus if anyone wants to know 
anything about the phone, I can only explain it in the concept of voice over.  
That is what I'm trying to say, I am only able to concept the I phone with 
voice over and I can't understand the sighted way.  I would if I had seen but I 
have not and that is why when I read these articles, there is something 
missing, my sight and the frustration begins from my side.

I hope all of you can understand what I'm trying to say, I am reading these 
articles not because I'm not interested, but because I can't do it in the 
sighted way and that is where my problems begin.  I will read everything but 
the lack of sight is making me miss what I need to do to use the phone in the 
way my sighted peers do use it.

Kawal.
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 17:16, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hello Kawal,
> 
> First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am 
> a visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
> VoiceOver.  
> 
> Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone 
> updated on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology news 
> that, sighted or not, affects us all.
> 
> Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
> post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
> delete/ignore them.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
> To: Macvisionaries
> Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
>> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
>> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
>> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
>> but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some 
>> getting used to.
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now 
>> it's called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in 
>> the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
>> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
>> the camera or view your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Rece

RE: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[M. Taylor]

Hello Kawal,

First, I fully appreciate the sentiment of your comments for, like you, I am a 
visually impaired iPhone user interacting with both iOS and Mac OS via 
VoiceOver.  

Second, the primary purpose of posting the articles is to keep everyone updated 
on the changing policies, concepts, and general Apple technology news that, 
sighted or not, affects us all.

Finally, there really is no need for an on-list debate as I will continue to 
post the articles to the list and those who are not interested can simply 
delete/ignore them.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Kawal Gucukoglu
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:44 AM
To: Macvisionaries
Subject: Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET With iOS 11 
> expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to know just 
> what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple has 
> to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, 
> but there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some 
> getting used to.
> 
> Notification Center is no more
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now 
> it's called Cover Sheet.
> 
> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in 
> the same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take 
> action or clear them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch 
> the camera or view your Today panel.
> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and 
> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
> 
> No more Force Touch for quick app switching When Apple announced the 
> iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a pressure sensitive 
> screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly switch between 
> apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you 
> want. It's simply not going to work.
> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
> 
> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 
> 11 in June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it 
> too; albeit in very limited situations.
> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album 
> instead of tapping around.
> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts 
> to hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag 
> the photo to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, 
> right?
> 
> NFC is open for all
> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with 
> the release of iOS 11.
> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET
> Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC 
> capabilities instead of keeping it locked to just Apple Pay.
> As developers begin to release updates for apps, you will undoubtedly 
> see the option to scan NFC tags to view more information about a 
> product or connect to gym equipment, for example.
> The feature will be limited to the iPhone 7 ($799.45 at Amazon 
> Marketplace) and iPhone 7 Plus ($979.99 at Amazon Marketplace).
> 
> Control Center is brand new. again
> Jason Cipriani/CNET
> When you swipe up from the 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[E.T.]

Kawal,
   My take is this. We do use the iPhone pretty much as a sighted 
person does but we have the adaptation that comes with Voiceover. The 
experience really is not that different.


   If you want the blind perspective, go to Applevis.

From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/6/2017 7:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.

On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor  wrote:

CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
With iOS 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to
know just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple
has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, but
there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some getting
used to.

Notification Center is no more
Jason Cipriani/CNET
Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now it's
called Cover Sheet.

Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in the
same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take action or clear
them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch the camera or view
your Today panel.
Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and
Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.

No more Force Touch for quick app switching
When Apple announced the iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a
pressure sensitive screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly
switch between apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you want. It's
simply not going to work.
Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.

Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
Jason Cipriani/CNET
Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 11 in
June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it too; albeit
in very limited situations.
In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album instead of
tapping around.
Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts to
hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag the photo
to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, right?

NFC is open for all
An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with the
release of iOS 11.
Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET
Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC capabilities
instead of keeping it locked to just Apple Pay.
As developers begin to release updates for apps, you will undoubtedly see
the option to scan NFC tags to view more information about a product or
connect to gym equipment, for example.
The feature will be limited to the iPhone 7 ($799.45 at Amazon Marketplace)
and iPhone 7 Plus ($979.99 at Amazon Marketplace).

Control Center is brand new. again
Jason Cipriani/CNET
When you swipe up from the bottom of the screen on your iPhone to view
Control Center, you're in for a surprise: The three-panel approach of iOS 10
is gone.
Instead, Control Center is a continuous column of buttons. You can hard
press on buttons for additional options, and add or remove items from
Control Center through the Settings app.

App Store has a fresh coat of paint
Sarah Tew/CNET
A long overdue change to the App Store is coming. With a more visually
appealing, interactive design, the App Store looks nothing like it used to.
The new design will highlight new apps and developers and looks a lot like
Apple Music. Only 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Donna Goodin]

OK, I'll be the first to disagree. :)

It's true we're blind users, but we can't just put our heads in the sand and be 
ignorant of changes that impact sighted users.  Also, some of those changes, as 
with the notification and control centers will most certainly impact us.  We 
just don't know yet how VO users will interact with them.

Thank you, Mark, for posting the articles.  I found them to be interesting and 
informative.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Aug 6, 2017, at 9:44 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Hello Mark.
> 
> Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
> to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
> person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in 
> the sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  
> So all these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these 
> things with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I 
> wanted to know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then 
> I could find that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my 
> opinion do not belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say 
> other wise but I am a blind user using voice over and not a blind person 
> using my phone in the sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use 
> the phone in the main stream kind of way.
> I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
> what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all 
> this.
> No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
> will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
> phone as a sighted person can.
> Kawal.
>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
>> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
>> With iOS 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to
>> know just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple
>> has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, but
>> there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some getting
>> used to. 
>> 
>> Notification Center is no more
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now it's
>> called Cover Sheet.
>> 
>> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in the
>> same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take action or clear
>> them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch the camera or view
>> your Today panel.
>> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and
>> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
>> 
>> No more Force Touch for quick app switching
>> When Apple announced the iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a
>> pressure sensitive screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly
>> switch between apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
>> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you want. It's
>> simply not going to work.
>> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
>> 
>> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 11 in
>> June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it too; albeit
>> in very limited situations.
>> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album instead of
>> tapping around. 
>> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts to
>> hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag the photo
>> to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, right?
>> 
>> NFC is open for all
>> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with the
>> release of iOS 11. 
>> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC capabilities
>> instead of keeping it locked to just Apple Pay.
>> As developers begin to release updates for apps, you will undoubtedly see
>> the option to scan NFC tags to view more information about a product or
>> connect to gym equipment, for example.
>> The feature will be limited to the iPhone 7 ($799.45 at Amazon Marketplace)
>> and iPhone 7 Plus ($979.99 at Amazon Marketplace). 
>> 
>> Control Center is brand new. again
>> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
>> When you swipe up from the bottom of the screen on your iPhone to view
>> Control Center, you're in for a surprise: The three-panel approach of iOS 10
>> is gone.
>> Instead, Control Center is a continuous column of buttons. You can hard
>> press on buttons for additional options, and add or remove items from
>> Control Center through the Settings app.
>> 
>> App Store has a fresh coat of paint
>> Sarah Tew/CNET 
>> A 

Re: 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Hello Mark.

Thanks for posting these articles.  However, I'd prefer to know what is going 
to happen to the I phone with Voice Over rather than knowing what a sighted 
person will be able to do with an I phone because I don't use the phone in the 
sighted way.  I double tap and interact with my phone using Voice Over.  So all 
these things would be better if we were going to learn how to do these things 
with voice over.  After all this is a list for blind users.  If I wanted to 
know how to use a phone in the way that a sighted person did, then I could find 
that out in other ways.  I'm sorry but these articles in my opinion do not 
belong on a blindness list like this.  Many others will say other wise but I am 
a blind user using voice over and not a blind person using my phone in the 
sighted manner of a person who has sight and can use the phone in the main 
stream kind of way.
I am not criticising you Mark but just pointing out or trying to understand, 
what are these articles to do with me as I have no sight to understand all this.
No doubt I'll have started a fresh debate on this list, so let's have it as I 
will stand my ground on the fact that I am a blind person unable to use my I 
phone as a sighted person can.
Kawal.
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:34, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> CNET How To - Friday, August 4, 2017 at 2:27 PM
> 7 drastic changes coming to your iPhone with iOS 11 - CNET
> With iOS 11 expected to officially launch this fall, it's a good idea to
> know just what you're in for after you install the latest and greatest Apple
> has to offer to the iPhone. The new OS is full of small, subtle tweaks, but
> there are also some bigger changes that will undoubtedly take some getting
> used to. 
> 
> Notification Center is no more
> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
> Well, that's not completely true. It's still there, it's just that now it's
> called Cover Sheet.
> 
> Cover Sheet looks a lot like the standard iOS lock screen and works in the
> same manner too. Swipe in either direction on alerts to take action or clear
> them. Swipe from either edge of the display to launch the camera or view
> your Today panel.
> Oh, and your notification feed will be broken up into Most Recent and
> Earlier Today (Yesterday, and so on) sections.
> 
> No more Force Touch for quick app switching
> When Apple announced the iPhone 6 ($370.79 at Amazon.com), complete with a
> pressure sensitive screen, the company also added a shortcut to quickly
> switch between apps by pressing on the left edge of the display.
> With iOS 11, that gesture is gone. Go ahead, press as hard as you want. It's
> simply not going to work.
> Time to go back to double-pressing the home button.
> 
> Drag-and-drop isn't just for iPad
> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
> Apple touted the iPad's new drag-and-drop feature when it unveiled iOS 11 in
> June, but what the company didn't tell us is the iPhone has it too; albeit
> in very limited situations.
> In the Photos app, for example, you can drag a photo to an album instead of
> tapping around. 
> Here's how you can try it: Place a finger on a photo until it starts to
> hover. Tap on the Albums tab on the bottom of the screen (or drag the photo
> to the tab). Then drop the photo in whichever album you want. Neat, right?
> 
> NFC is open for all
> An example of the NFC prompt coming to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus with the
> release of iOS 11. 
> Screenshot by Jason Cipriani/CNET 
> Apple is finally giving developers access to the iPhone's NFC capabilities
> instead of keeping it locked to just Apple Pay.
> As developers begin to release updates for apps, you will undoubtedly see
> the option to scan NFC tags to view more information about a product or
> connect to gym equipment, for example.
> The feature will be limited to the iPhone 7 ($799.45 at Amazon Marketplace)
> and iPhone 7 Plus ($979.99 at Amazon Marketplace). 
> 
> Control Center is brand new. again
> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
> When you swipe up from the bottom of the screen on your iPhone to view
> Control Center, you're in for a surprise: The three-panel approach of iOS 10
> is gone.
> Instead, Control Center is a continuous column of buttons. You can hard
> press on buttons for additional options, and add or remove items from
> Control Center through the Settings app.
> 
> App Store has a fresh coat of paint
> Sarah Tew/CNET 
> A long overdue change to the App Store is coming. With a more visually
> appealing, interactive design, the App Store looks nothing like it used to.
> The new design will highlight new apps and developers and looks a lot like
> Apple Music. Only instead of songs and artists, it's games and apps.
> Speaking of which, Apple has finally separated the two categories into their
> own respective sections.
> 
> Screenshot tool is awesome
> Jason Cipriani/CNET 
> The process of taking a screenshot, editing and then sharing it is getting
> streamlined.
> With iOS 11 installed, when you take a screenshot a small preview thumbnail
>