Re: [Mpls] City Council resolution re: The Patriot Act
Mark writes, "To demonstrate just how Minneapolis-specific such a resolution is, I paste below the actions called for in one proposed version, taken from the Minneapolis Bill of Rights Defense Committee web site (http://minneapolis.bordc.org/)..." I see no credibility in arguing a liberal viewpoint using a liberal website to try to state how out of it I supposedly am. By this rationale, I could simply take a conservative website saying the Patriot Act is not unconstitutional and say, "see, Mark, you're wrong." In matter of fact, Reuters News reports constitutional law expert Neal Katyal of Georgetown University stating "...the Patriot Act and its possible sequel are not in and of themselves dangers to individuals U.S. rights..." Therefore the platform the BORDC is arguing from is not solid and it is therefore not a germane topic for the Minneapolis City Council. Alexandra Ellison writes, "inferring that the city council will address reparations, global warming, rain forest issues, dolphin saving, etc., is inflammatory, and a distraction from the relevant and timely issue at hand: challenging a measure that infringes on our civil rights and liberties." First of all, why is it imflammatory? Because you say so? I beg quite the differ. City Councils are designed to do specific things which do not include speaking to every national or global issue. Frankly, we could find some esoteric argument that every topic in existence somehow relates to the City of Minneapolis. Common sense, however, tells us that a City Council does not speak to every topic on the face of the earth just because we grab at straws to make a connection. Furthermore, if we're going to name-call and say who is being "inflammatory", then let's look at Alexandra's own statement, "...challenging a measure that infringes on our civil rights and liberties." It is not clear the Patriot Act does that, as noted above. Therefore, to make such an assertion is just as inflammatory as I'm supposedly being. This topic of whether the City Council should be making a resolution opposing the Act ties back in to a previous discussion on another proposed resolution: it is not clear the majority of Minneapolitans are opposed to the Patriot Act. Until such a determination is made, the City Council should not be speaking on our behalf- whether it is germane or not for them to be speaking to this issue at all. Finally, I have to share what I suspect is really going on with these endless resolutions: the liberal agenda, having failed to persuade the majority of average citizens, is resorting to other tactics to push its agenda onto the people. How ironic that an agenda claiming democracy would possibly use such a non democratic tactic. Gary Bowman Formerly Audubon Park, now temporarily Crystal, MN __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] City Council resolution re: The Patriot Act
Us opponents of the anti-war resolution have been proven correct for opposing a City Council sponsored resolution (whether for reason of supporting intervention or because it's not a germane issue): An anti-war resolution only leads to more and more resolutions that City Councils do not have expertise in speaking to and don't have business speaking to. We now see a desire to speak on the Patriot Act. Next it will be slavery reparations, then global warming, then saving the rain forest, then saving the dolphins, then the advantages of capitalism versus socialism, then the next non-Minneapolis specific issue, and the next, and the next, and the next... Hence, the desire is to simply push the Minneapolis City Council into becoming the Minneapolis Elected Debating Society. I don't live in the sixth ward, so I ask this question in sincerity along with some tongue-in-cheek: What does Zimmerman do that actually positively affects the sixth ward, besides writing resolutions that practice up for a higher office? Does Zimmerman even allow himself to be bothered by things like zoning issues or local crime? Probably not the way Alexandra wanted to discuss this issue... Gary Bowman Audubon Park (for about one more week...) --- Alexandra Ellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would be interested in seeing a discussion by > members of this list > regarding the "Defense of the Bill of Rights" > resolution that > Councilmember Dean Zimmermann will be introducing to > a committee > today, and the City Council on Friday. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] There must be no Walgreen's in Waterville, ME
In watching Walgreen's current TV commercials, we are given a glimpse of life in the town of Perfect. The commercial goes on to claim because we live nowhere near Perfect, it's good to have Walgreen's nearby. Apparently, life is so perfect in Waterville, ME their City Council has no legitimate business to attend to and can use its time to play debate club. Isn't too bad Minneapolis has legitimate City Council business it must attend to? On another note, just a personal observation on this whole anti-war resolution business that I wasn't going to bring back up but others won't let rest. It was previously mentioned by others how, in the Vietnam era, the anti-war movement was brought directly to the people. Why the change now? Is it because the anti-war people can't successfully plead their case to the American public and must resort to trying to "sneak it by"? It seems a lot like the same way developers got their TIF districts and other subsidies: it's a lot easier to convince just 7 Council Members and 1 Mayor than to have to convince an entire city of people. Gary Bowman Audubon Park = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] War and the city(I know what I previously said, post is short )
All excellent points raised by Michael. Ms. Kahn would do well to remember this is the Minneapolis Issues Forum, not the "expound Kahn's general political ideologies on the world" forum. Finally, what a shock that the NY Times had nothing nice to say about our President. Nobody would have expected the NY Times to badmouth a conservative. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Michael Hohmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My apology... third and last post today. I'll not > post again 'till next > week. Here goes my New Year's resolution... again. > ~ > Re: the NYTimes article Rep. Kahn cites, referencing > the Bush budget and the > costs of war: > > It almost sounds like a Molly Ivan's article, absent > the wit. In general, > I'm looking for some compromise in the federal > budget, given what both sides > are presenting. > > First off, the NYT article is without context, and > has no direct relevance > to this Minneapolis-specific forum. How many > federal positions will be cut > in Minneapolis? How many Minneapolis residents will > be impacted by the > proposed cuts? How many veterans currently go > unserved or underserved at > the Vets Hospital? How will this change under the > Bush budget? Where is > the relevance? The entire article represents more > cheap shots in the > political vein. I'm surprised such superficial > journalism even appears in > the NYT. > > As to the speculative costs of war in Iraq, I'd > suggest we reinstitute the > draft so that all of America can more fully > appreciate the cost:benefit > aspects of participation. Not of immediate > consequence maybe, but important > none-the-less. I think it would add to the > dialogue; and we'd find some > costs... priceless. But, I digress. > > As to the budgetary statements in the article, there > is no reference to the > relative nature of said cuts... what does it mean if > we cut 1,175 FBI > agents? ... or leave 230,000 veterans without > medical services? I don't > know how good a job the FBI is doing or how many > agents are currently on the > payroll. I'd characterize current medical services > provided to veterans as > atrocious-- something I wish was better advertised > to the volunteers that > fill today's ranks of our armed services. There are > truth in advertising > laws, but it's akin to leading a horse to water only > to find they aren't > thirsty. I can't put the 230,000 vets that won't be > served in context, > especially given the quality of service provided by > the VA today (no > disrespect to VA health care providers intended-- I > recognize you can only > do what you can do, given fiscal reality). > Considering the state of today's > managed care health delivery system and the vast > numbers of > uninsured/underinsured residents, the VA medical > system shortfalls fit right > into the current status of the health care delivery > system serving us in MN > and across the country. So, what's the alternative > being proposed? > Nationally and right here in MN? > > And remember, the federal government can incur > deficit-ridden budgets, ... > hell, it can print money; states cannot! Vicky's > earlier comments about > local giveaways add context to the above numbers. > Let's keep our local > houses in order-- the budgets anyway! > > Michael Hohmann > Linden Hills > > > > TEMPORARY REMINDER: > 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. > 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as > possible. > > > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Affordable Housing - Another RT doublecross
Jordan Kushner writes: "The end of the article also has a revealing exchange reflecting the fallout of RT's class warfare on behalf of his rich neighbors in Linden Hills. In response to Gary Schiff noting 'the issue as a battle between the poorer inner city neighborhoods and richer outlying areas,' Linden Hills council member Barrett Lane, 'a usually calm City Council member, was angered by Schiff's comments. 'This isn't about politics. This is about keeping the lights on,' Lane said. 'If we fail to do our duty here . . . then we will fail the poorest people in the city because the rich people will leave.' This seems to be quite the classic warped conservative rhetoric that somehow the poor need the rich. How does this have anything to do with reality"? And the class warfare charge isn't just as warped and just as rhetorical on the liberal side? If it's so horrible to have people who have worked hard, educated themselves and have achieved some degree of success for their efforts, then why don't you invite the "rich people" (however that's defined) to leave? Perhaps Lane should take up the idea suggested by his predecessor Steve Minn and have the 13th ward be annexed to the city of Edina. Then you won't have to be bothered by all those "rich people" and the tax revenue they generate for the City of Minneapolis. You can then just have a complete ghettoization of the City of Minneapolis. Of course, then I'm sure the claim will be the "rich people", in their decrepitude, "oppressed" the poor in Minneapolis by leaving them in economically segregated neighborhoods- or some other similar charge. The reality is this, the "rich" and "poor" have plenty to be interdependent over. Let's drop the inflammatory class warfare attacks and see if we can work together to solve a problem that affects us all. Gary Bowman Audubon Park Who's not sure if he's "rich", "poor" or "somewhere in between". Depends on who you ask. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] My last post on anti-war resolutions
There are a few final thoughts I have on this topic. Final you say, Gary? Yes, final. By the time most read this either the Council will have rightfully done what it should and declare the anti-war resolution not germane to Council work, or it will have passed and Mayor RT Rybak will have vetoed it. Furthermore, just as no regular contributor to the list will likely change my opinion I don't expect to change any regular contributor's opinion on the other side of the issue. After this somewhat lengthy post, do your name-calling and refuting of this post- I'm done with this topic. Linda Mann writes, speaking to where I got my "poll numbers": "Looks like you got your poll numbers from the same place as your estimates for anti war demonstration numbers". In my various posts on this subject, I don't recall ever talking about "anti war demonstration numbers". That said, I'm not sure what it is you're talking about in that respect. However, my source for support for intervention was clearly identified and it was something so ludicrous as the Gallup Poll. If you wish to check it out again, the web address is: http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030129.asp Ultimately, we have what is not uncommon knowledge: polls and statistics can be twisted and convoluted to say whatever the person paying for the information wants it to say. Your poll says A=B and my poll says B=A. Effect: we cancel each other out. You can all say I twisted the numbers to my advantage and I say you've done the same. As far as Kahn's statement that representatives are elected to magnify the voices of constituents, I agree with Michael Atherton at least to the extent he says, "I don't understand the logic here. Since it is unclear if a majority of Minneapolitans are unconditionally opposed to a war with Iraq how is passing an antiwar resolution by the Minneapolis City Council justified"? Furthermore, the statement that only a quarter of the country chose Bush is, at best, only partially true. Those who chose to not vote chose to accept whatever results came about, thereby implicitly voting for Bush. As I mentioned to someone offlist, I question whether all anti-war protestors are sincere in their beliefs. I expect that some are truly anti-war for anti-war's sake. However, I also suspect that some are anti-war just because it's a pet issue for Bush and they don't like Bush. I especially suspect this to be the case with many "anti-war resolution" cities, since cities tend to be more Democratic. What a way to try to undermine a 2004 re-election of Bush. Of course, the moment the US military goes in and finds weapons of mass destruction and Bush was right -Saddam is evil and out to get the US- the 2004 election is all but over. I suspect this is also why some unions are suddenly "anti-war"; they just don't like George W. Bush. I furthermore suspect some groups are "anti-war" only because they don't want America to be able to claim to be liberator. All of these "ulterior motive" groups, of course, should be condemned by all. They do not serve those who are genuinely anti-war and they are incredibly sinister in their actions. Second, in my post "50 or 500, it's still not germane to city issues", I was struck by the near absolute silence to this post. The only response I received was offlist and was in support of the post. For the sake of space, I won't reprint the entire post. However, I must assume there are no points for anyone to disagree with from this post or anti-war advocates simply choose to ignore an argument too difficult to respond to. Here are three of the bigger points from that post, however: "This conversation we've been having about whether it's germane for the Minneapolis City Council to speak on the war with Iraq simply would not be happening in Baghdad. You know as well as I that dissent in Iraq is simply not tolerated , every proponent of opposing Saddam would be tortured and/or killed". "Let's face it: war is a terrible thing. I remind you, though, history has shown appeasement usually if not always fails. When Europe tried to appease Hitler, six million Jews died. Do we really want a repeat of this? I pray not". "Consider this theoretical twist on the argument that we're all so interrelated: If city governments should speak out on national issues, then why shouldn't national governments speak out on local issues (excepting constitutional arguments)? Maybe we should expect Congress to weigh in every time the City Council wants to issue a parade permit... Wouldn't it be an interesting twist to have the likes of Jesse Helms debating whether a parade permit should be issued for the Gay Pride Parade? Is this what you really want? Is this really a wise use of Congr
Re: [Mpls] 3rd Ward;Johnson-Lee;Police Brutality;Quoting
"By a margin of 67% to 30%, speech watchers say Bush has made a convincing case about the need for the United States to take military action against Iraq. Prior to the speech, this same group of Americans was about evenly divided, with just 47% saying Bush had made a convincing case for military action and 52% saying he had not". Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030129.asp Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Jim Mork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 3rd Ward > I'd suggest that the DFL NOT regard this as a "line > in the sand" vote. After all, it is a race between > basically unknown people. Samuels should have the > greatest name recognition in the North part of the > ward, but both candidates are from the DFL side. In > order to get elected in this city, you must be > established in the DFL. All others need not apply. > If Valdis Rosentals, by some fluke, had won, he'd > merely be the exception that tests the rule. > Minneapolis, as a bloc, simply don't buy the > conservative, Republican take on issues. Guess we > just don't have a big enough bloc of rich people. > The bulk of them found suburban homes. That's when > they gave up the power to influence Minneapolis > elections. Anyone else remember when Dick Erdall > and Gladys Brooks were on the council? That was > about the last hurrah. Dennis Schulstad had a long > career on the council by ignoring Republican > politics elsewhere and being an "independent > Republican". Truth is, if Reagan-Bush-Gingrich > hadn't turned their party into a military > organization, there probably would be more around, > but as Jim Jeffords learned, there are PENALTIES for > those who try to be Republican and think for > themselves. > > Johnson-Lees Response: > Since war was the main topic of the Johnson-Lee > speech, perhaps she would be interested in knowing > around 2/3's of Americans support military action > -- Gary Bowman > > Another meaningless statement. A majority supports > ONLY a group decision by the U.N. but Bush cant > get that decision. Ergo, the basis of the support > is removed. And without that, who knows what 2/3 of > Americans support. > > http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm > > Police Brutality: > > Lets get it straight once and for all. I am only > PRO GOOD-COP. I am on record as disgusted with the > games that Mike Sauro and the Police Federation > played, trying to get Officer Sauro back out on the > street after numerous incidents. Im am also > anti-code of silence. I dont define a good cop > as one who breaks the code. But I think all the > good cops pay a price for letting the bad apples get > away with stuff. I wish theyd make up their minds > to stop paying. The FACT is that we need cops doing > a job on the street. We have a huge stake in an > effective police force. They have lots of mandates > from politics that are extremely bad ideas, and a > lot of the misbehavior is a natural result of those > mistakes. If voters want to end the misbehavior, > they should join forces and end the kind of stuff > that makes good cops into bad ones. > > Tamir Nolley and perhaps a few others are caught up > so much in their agenda that they cant handle > someone looking at the the cold hard realities of > law enforcement. They want angelic men in uniform, > regardless how screwed up the context of the > profession gets. Well, good luck. None of you who > are cop-haters are flawless, either. > > Me and Jim? Come on. I only speak in unison with > Jim when he decides to get off the soapbox and deal > with simple reality. Im well clear of the past > Philips wars, so I dont have to defend anything I > did in the past. Jim does, plus his current agenda. > I just want to save our city. > > Quoting: > Every one of us knows that anything we send to this > list goes to a bunch of strangers. Which is why we > have to consider the effect of our words on > strangers. The thing that gets ME is the use of a > quote from an anonymous source in an article. How > doe readers know what to make of it? Usually > anonymous sources are given some identification that > provides some semblance of authority. This is like > "I was standing on a street corner and heard > somebody say blah. If Judith Yates Borger can slip > that by the editors, well, more power to her. > > . > > > > > -- > Jim Mork--Cooper > > "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those > who brought war into our Country deserve all the > curses and maledictions a people can pour out." Gen. > William T. Sherman (1864) Letter to the Mayor
Re: [Mpls] Natalie Johnson-Lee's Speech
Apparently Natalie Johnson-Lee heard a different State of the Union speech than the rest of the country did, as evidenced by the numerous mistakes she made in what Bush actually said versus the rhetoric and straw-grabbing she asserts. If this speech indeed represents all Greens, then this speech only goes to show how far to the extreme left the Greens sit. Since war was the main topic of the Johnson-Lee speech, perhaps she would be interested in knowing around 2/3's of Americans support military action. Are you sure America's not calling, Natalie? Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Annie Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > For those of you who may not know Natalie Johnson > -Lee was chosen as the > Green Party National Spokeperson to give the speech > below following the > State of the Union from DC last Tuesday evening. > Her remarks follow and > she does talk about Minneapolis. > Annie Young > East Phillips = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] 50 or 500, it's still not germane to city issues
What is frustrating to continue to hear from all of my anti-war advocates on the forum is the insinuation the United States is equally corrupt in its morals as the current Iraqi regime. I suspect this comes from the belief of moral relativism, which is a completely self-contradicting philosophy. However, I will spare you my philosophical banter and stick more directly to whether the United States is equally horrible as Iraq. I will be the first to admit the United States has not lived up to the ideals it claims 100% of the time. However, lets look at Iraq vs. the United States in one important area: freedom of expression. This conversation weve been having about whether its germane for the Minneapolis City Council to speak on the war with Iraq simply would not be happening in Baghdad. You know as well as I that dissent in Iraq is simply not tolerated. If we were discussing on the Baghdad Issues Forum whether the Baghdad City Council should speak against Saddam, every proponent of opposing Saddam would be tortured and/or killed. Please tell me, when is the last time the FBI showed up at your house to torture you because you spoke against the national government? When is the last time the CIA showed up to torture your children with you watching because you dared say the US government has made mistakes? When is the last time you had to sign your name on your ballot for president so the National Guard knew who was voting against the governments choice of president? Furthermore, when is the last time the United States government openly used chemical or biological weapons against a whole people because it served to terrorize people into submission (and please keep the answer to weapons similar to what Saddam used on the Kurds)? **Despite failures we see in hindsight (which, as is said, is always 20/20)**, the United States has made far more attempt to recognize the worth of all people and bring justice to all people than will ever be seen under Saddam. The United States has also brought more freedom to other countries than will ever be seen by Saddam. It saddens me that so many take their freedoms so lightly so as to try to make the very country that allows such freedom as horrible as the truly horrible ones. As far as the 50 other cities that have jumped on the bandwagon of political correctness to vote for anti-war resolutions, I bluntly tell you I dont care. Whether its 50 or 500, none of these cities should be spending their valuable time playing debate club. There are streets to police, fires to put out, parade permits to issue, and many other relevant issues for city councils to deal with. Every Council Member and Mayor is completely free to express their opinions independently, as R.T. Rybak has and will likely continue to do. But, whether we knew we were going to war or not when the Council was elected, nobody expected City Councils to speak on national issues. I again repeat this is why we elect US House members and Senators. Consider this theoretical twist on the argument that were all so interrelated: If city governments should speak out on national issues, then why shouldnt national governments speak out on local issues (excepting constitutional arguments)? Maybe we should expect Congress to weigh in every time the City Council wants to issue a parade permit. Certainly an argument could be made that Congress has a vested interest in assuring city streets are well used by American citizens. Wouldnt it be an interesting twist to have the likes of Jesse Helms debating whether a parade permit should be issued for the Gay Pride Parade? Is this what you really want? Is this really a wise use of Congress' time? Lets face it: war is a terrible thing. I remind you, though, history has shown appeasement usually if not always fails. When Europe tried to appease Hitler, six million Jews died. Do we really want a repeat of this? I pray not. If we can free Iraqi citizens from tyranny and horrible oppression, if we can remove a horrible terrorist before he successfully terrorizes more people, why do we sit and wait? Isnt that just as immoral? Who on this list had a signature on their posts talking about the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who stand by and do nothing in the face of evil? In closing, if we want to quote from the Bible, let me quote this: Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them; and those who are ill-treated, since you also are in the body (Hebrews 13:3). The Iraqi people remain in a prison. And, so long as Saddam remains, we all remain in a prison of fear and terror over what hell do next- all based on his past actions. Gary Bowman Audubon Park = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Aff
Re: [Mpls] If an antiwar res is germane to city issues...
Again I will state I am not trying to debate the worthiness of arts in society. I would ask you to reread the original post. My point, again, is for however worthy art may be, most if not all the economic reasons listed for the antiwar resolution could be generally applied to many other programs. If the money used to finance a war is taking away from affordable housing, then why aren't NEA grants taking away from affordable housing? I will bet my first paycheck at my new job next week that between a place to live and pretty art, there will not be a reasonable person out there who would choose art. In regards to Jim Mork's comments that the amount for NEA is a drop in the bucket, I say the amount is irrelevant to the main argument. It is still funds being taken away from social causes. Whether it's $1 million or $100 million, there are still people on the streets because of the public financing of art (among other programs). Finally, if an anti-war res is germane to city issues, then what's not? What's next? How much time will we take away from Council Members spending on things such as street plowing and policing to sit and play debate club? Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The National Endowment for the Arts directly > supports Arts organizations in > Minneapolis, in turn supporting and enhancing our > quality of life and > cultural well being. Below are some of the grants > that have been awarded so > far this year to MPLS arts organizations in MPLS. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Conservative media and war for oil? (was Open letter...)
The insinuation the media is all locked up by conservative rich people is simply not true. To the contrary, most conservatives argue there is a clearly liberal bias to news, which would favor anti-war advocates. I also must object to the claim of "war for oil" on two fronts. First, Bush and others have consistently said what this military action is about: ridding the world of a brutal dictator that has no regard for justice, peace, his own people, or you and me. I would challenge people to show me where Bush explicitly said, "we want control of the Middle East only for the oil". Secondly, have you considered why Russia is opposing military action, besides all the supposed claims to be peace-loving? Is it maybe because the current Iraqi regime owes Russia $7 billion? Is it because if/when Saddam is deposed and oil from Iraq is allowed to be sold, oil prices will come down and Russia can ill afford a drop in it own oil prices? Is it because Russia is afraid if it's the Americans who free Iraqi people from oppression and tyranny a post-Saddam government may be more inclined to want to deal with Americans than Russians? Therein lies a perverse twist on the claim of "war for oil". Okay, for a bit of Minneapolis importance to this post? Consider this thought: Wouldn't it be a positive to our local economy if gas prices came down because of an increase in oil supplies because the US deposed Saddam and brought a just government to Iraq, thereby allowing oil sales? Wouldn't lower prices mean more money to be spent on other items by Minneapolis citizens? Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- David Shove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's just it -- writing Bush or the Congress or the major media has ZERO influence. Zilch nada bupkis. All owned and controlled by the ruling class, drooling for an oil war. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] If an antiwar res is germane to city issues...
Then why don't I hear complaints about the National Endowment for the Arts? Clearly, money that could be used for claimed to be needed social programs in Minneapolis is being spent on much less essential things. Clearly, a resolution opposing the NEA could be easily written on the same vein as Z&Z wrote the anti-war resolution. I am not trying to start a debate here about the worth of art, folks. It is worthy. I AM trying to say that by the logic many are attempting to use with the anti-war resolution, there are a great many other programs you should also be including. Why don't I see Z&Z running around writing resolutions demanding money be taken from the NEA and used for affordable housing, among other social causes? Is it maybe because the NEA is liked by Z&Z? This demonstrates to me that the primary concern here is not the economic impact to Minneapolis that a war may or may not cause. The primary concern is a political ideology of appeasement like was done with Hitler. Honestly, for all the supposed facts and eloquent speech in the antiwar resolution, one could easily find facts demonstrating the potential negative impact of NOT going to war, especially if it brings about another 9/11 because terrorists feel emboldened by our reticence. Frankly, Council Members could spend every day of their terms writing various resolutions about the impact of this action or that action and end up accomplishing nothing more than showing what a great debating club they are. That's not what they were elected for, though. They were elected to ensure our streets are plowed effectively, the fires in the city are put out, and the streets are as free as possible of crime (among other clearly germane issues). Gary Bowman Audubon Park = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] open letter to our Mayor
Dear Mayor R.T. Rybak, Knowing you read Minneapolis Issues fairly consistently, I want to appeal to you publicly on an issue of importance. As noted on other posts to Minneapolis Issues, Council Members Zimmerman and Zerby appear to be ready to introduce an anti-war resolution tomorrow, 1/28/03. It is my hope that should this resolution pass, you will remember the promise you made to veto an anti-war resolution. The City of Minneapolis has many pressing issues to face without being distracted by resolutions that would be better suited being aired in Congress. When I supported your candidacy, I did so on the belief you would attend to issues facing the City of Minneapolis, not to try to speak for the United States. I know you personally do not support a war. However, I hope you will first and foremost faithfully execute the office to which you were elected and continue to present your personal beliefs in an appropriate manner. Please accept my thanks for your time and attention. Sincerely, Gary Bowman __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Fwd: please oppose the anti-war resolution being brought forward 1/28/03
Note: forwarded message attached. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --- Begin Message --- Note: forwarded message attached. = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --- Begin Message --- Hello Paul, Looking at the Minneapolis Issues forum, it appears that Council Members Zimmerman and Zerby will introduce an anti-war resolution tomorrow. As a constituent, I urge you to oppose this resolution. It is not a relevant Minneapolis issue, especially in light of other concerns facing the city. It is also not appropriate for the Minneapolis City Council to engage in propragating political ideology. The Council is charged with attending to the concerns of the city, not speaking for special interest groups. As always, thank you for your time and attention. Gary Bowman __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --- End Message --- --- End Message ---
[Mpls] Re: anti-war resolution
Maybe the big, sophisticated berg of Minneapolis is sophisticated enough to know what is local business and what is national business. Maybe the big, sophisticated berg of Minneapolis is also sophisticated enough to know while war is not preferable and exacts a price, debating and endless diplomatic talks which are bordering on being on joke are meaningless without the willingness to back up the talk. Maybe the big, sophisticated berg of Minneapolis is sophisticated enough to realize that nations like France and Russia are opposing military action because they're more worried about their own business deals in Iraq than ridding the world of a dictator on par with Hitler. Gary Bowman Audubon Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Below is a copy of an antiwar resolution being considered by my hometown, Portland, Me. Too bad a big, sophisticated berg like Minneapolis can't do this. (Bar Harbor, Me., another huge metropolis, is also considering a resolution). Linda Mann Kingfield = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] R.T. et al, please let us 3rd ward residents decide
Dyna writes about RT's endorsement, "We 3rd ward DFLers heard out all the candidates, including yours, and decided to endorse Olin Moore. Apparently you and your pack of outside interests have no respect for our 3rd ward process." While I didn't hear or read the exact quotes by RT (and perhaps there would be something more telling in an exact quote), there's three thoughts I have on the above statement. 1) Believe it or not, not every DFL'er attends conventions. That said, I don't think all "3rd ward DFLers" actually heard out all the candidates... As anyone who has been involved in the DFL endorsement process (and likely other parties also) knows, only a portion of even DFL delegates attend the convention, and that number is only a tiny fraction of all DFLers within a ward boundary. However, despite only a tiny fraction of voters attending a convention, the endorsement often carries immense weight with it. 2) Believe this or not, but not every last citizen of the 3rd ward is a DFLer. I know, what a horrible thought for the Minneapolis DFL. With that said, the DFL endorsement is of little consequence to those who aren't DFLers. Therefore, to claim that RT is doing something improper to the third ward just because he didn't honor the DFL endorsement is a claim without merit. 3) Believe THIS or not, but RT is the mayor of the whole City of Minneapolis, not just Linden Hills or any neighborhood. It is absolutely fair he attempt to bring about what will be, in his opinion, the best representation for an area of the City he represents. Gary Bowman Audubon Park = "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace.'' --Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Send all posts in plain-text format. 2. Cut as much of the post you're responding to as possible. Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Photo cops and Block E
Barbara Nelson writes: "Don't we already have the kind of surveillence of places that are likely spots for violent crimes to be committed? I'm speaking, of course, about convenience stores. Sure, those places are private property, the cameras installed by owners/renters, but it's basically the same thing. We also have cameras in the stairwells of parking ramps (public and private). We're already there, folks. I say, bring on the cameras -- let's use technology to our advantage -- people are being killed on our streets and this is not a trivial matter". Others wrote on this vein also, the privately owned cameras. While I'm not overly thrilled about these either, the difference is in that they are privately owned. As such, they are: 1) decentralized and of use only to a specific person in a specific context. Furthermore, these tapes are usually discarded or recorded over within a very limited amount of time, and 2) Sam at the Easy-Way on Johnson Street in Northeast Minneapolis doesn't have the authority to directly arrest me if I do something he doesn't personally like, regardless of whether it's currently illegal or not. Yes, there are already a vast number of cameras. They are also already being used in various manners like Linda Mann suggested. However, that doesn't automatically justify the use. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. One post also argued that cameras work well in Germany. I'll again make the point there's plenty of government cameras in China. Were the citizens of Beijing able to speak freely, I'm not sure if they would believe the payoff of far less crime is worth the cost of personal freedom. I understand the governmental structure is different in China were there is vast difference in what those cameras are used for, but state the Communist party had to establish themselves to limit personal liberties gradually. So it could go with the innocuous photo cop. The biggest problem in this is the photo cops have many beneficial uses that speak to our hearts. How do we answer those heartfelt concerns without sacrificing things we ultimately value as much, if not more? I'll have to keep thinking about the answer. However, I'd say as horrible as people being hurt by traffic scofflaws is, the answer isn't a step towards limiting personal freedoms- either directly with the government using these cameras to police currently unpopular but legal activities or by simply with the chilling effect of someone watching you. Jeremy Brezovan writes: "I noticed two cameras attached to poles at 9th and Hennepin downtown for the first time today: one in front of Bravo, and one in front of Rock Bottom Brewery. Does anyone know why those two cameras are there? They don't seem to be aimed at the intersection, but more at Hennepin itself". I remember these cameras being installed in downtown, if they're the same ones I'm thinking of. There's actually a fair number all around downtown. Needless to say, I wasn't thrilled about these any more than any others. I believe they were installed to watch the level of traffic in the same manner we have the freeway cameras seeing where the traffic jams are. However, while you can watch the freeway cameras on public access, I've never seen these cameras images published on public access. David Brauer writes: "There's an even greater, long-term skyway disconnect...the good folks at Marshall Field's, who close their skyway connection much earlier than everyone else, and have, frustratingly, for years". It is immensely frustrating. However, speaking from my experience of many moons ago as security at then Dayton's, I'm not blaming them. Shoplifting is an immense problem for any retailer, and a retailer with as much space as Dayton's/Field's has the problem is magnified all the more. The cost Field's incurs is just too great to justify keeping the second floor open without the eyes of salespeople to assist security any more than it may be now. The only way I could see them doing it is if they were to build some sort of floor to ceiling gates around every department and escalator that wasn't the main aisle between skyway entrances. I see no way Field's would put out that expense and trouble. Oh, well Finally, Lisa McDonald talks about the new restaurants to Block E from her officer acquaintance. Come on, Lisa, what's wrong with Red Lobster? It could have been White Castle (and I'll openly admit I eat the sliders)! Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: Pedestrian Killed
I previously had an opinion on street cameras but chose to not post onlist because the conversation seemed to move on. However, with the opportunity returning, I want to make two points. First, as was previously mentioned, state law would have to be changed first to allow cameras to catch traffic scofflaws. I personally pleased my State Rep. (Len Biernat) was not successful in changing state law on this. Second, and -in my opinion- more importantly, is whether we really want these cameras as much as we think we do. Yes, they will likely have a chilling effect on red-light running. My concern is they will lead to a slippery slope of more and more cameras on an already surveillance camera-happy society. First, it's the camera that catches the red-light runner. Then it's the camera that watches for other crimes. All of these cameras are argued with good intentions. However, what happens when we get to the point of cameras watching for "inappropriate behavior", i.e. protest marches that "might get out of hand and lead to subversive elements taking hold"? It's a heck of a lot harder to remove cameras already placed than prevent them in the first place. Yes, call me paranoid. Yet, we can look to many totalitarian countries that actively employ cameras for the very purposes I mention. Look at China. I know I'm not interested in living in fear of what government bureaucrat might be watching me for, especially when it's expression of thought. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- "Barbara L. Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Did the good police lieutenant say anything about > using technology to catch > traffic scofflaws? > > I love the idea of having a camera take pictures of > red-light runners and > sending them the bill + photo in the mail. Fine > with me if it gets sent to the > holder of the vehicle's registration even if they > aren't driving. They should > be held responsible for how their auto is used, > unless the vehicle is stolen, > which could be proven by having filed a police > report prior to the snapshot's > time. > > Seems to me that I heard one doesn't need to put > active cameras at every > interection -- just at some (others have dummy > cameras), and then move the > active cameras around a bit. This way people don't > know where the active > cameras really are -- and they flaut the law with > less than they otherwise > would. > > Perhaps some foundation could gift the Mpls. Public > Works Department with a > starter bunch of cameras -- how about 3M who makes a > lot of the optical > technology? Put them on a few corners and I'm sure > the city will start > agitating for some in its regular budget. > Barbara Nelson > Burnsville > Formerly of Seward > -- > Any idiot can face a crisis -- > it's this day-to-day living that > wears you out. -- Anton Chekhov > > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Cub on Central is Toast
I'm somewhat of two minds on this topic. On one hand, I'm pleased to see we may avoid another city subsidy we can't afford and shouldn't be getting into in the first place. However, I'm somewhat concerned many opponents were such more because of an out of hand opposition to Cub because it so happened to be a large business. This appeared to be the case in some instances, whether intended or not. It would have been my hope if Cub moved forward, they would have constructed their store in a "streetscape" friendly manner. The Lund's in Uptown provides some point of reference here: building coming to the sidewalk, parking more hidden (either behind the building or with decorative fencing), and much more of a feeling of being pedestrian friendly. The Cub might have been built with open windows facing the street also, to provide more of a "street friendly shop" feel. I realize there were many concerns regarding Cub and its impact on Central and Northeast. My hope, however, was there could have been a dialogue as to how to resolve these concerns. I'm not sure if either Cub or the neighborhoods gave that dialogue much of a chance. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Bruce Shoemaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Good news--this morning it was announced that Cub > Foods is pulling out > of the proposed Sherman Associates development at > 23/24th and Central. > What many of us has suspected turned out to be true: > Without a large > public subsidy the project is not feasible. Faced > with significant > neighborhood opposition, and given the city's > current financial status, > the MCDA was unlikely to provide the minimum subsidy > required. > > Sherman Associates, however, still wants to proceed > with a redevelopment > proposal for the US Bank site. Details are not yet > available but their > new proposal will only be for the US Bank site, > include a mix of housing > and retail, and not require the acquisition of the > housing units and > businesses on the southern end of the block. There > is at least one > other serious proposal for the site as well. Both > proposals will be > presented at the January 9th Holland neighborhood > meeting and at a later > meeting of the Windom Park neighborhood group. > > Despite the Cub pull-out, the Northeast CDC > apparently still intends to > proceed with their duplicative and wasteful public > meetings regarding > the bank site redevelopment. The rationale for this > is unclear. The > whole reason the CDC gave for their involvement was > that a development > the size of a Cub Foods was an issue affecting the > whole area, not just > one neighborhood. But the revised development > proposal will be much > smaller--mainly housing and smaller commercial. > What real "value added" > is the NECDC providing? None that I can see, but it > will be interesting > to see what kind of spin the NECDC puts on this now. > > Bruce Shoemaker > Holland Neighborhood > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] My question was answered on MPS Community Ed...
It was brought to my attention offlist my question was answered and I seemed to have missed it. I apologize for that unintentional oversight. Long story short is that MPS does not subsidize Community Ed classes, according to the source. Probably needless to say, I am pleased to read that. The reasons for this are already mentioned in previous posts. With my question answered, I rest my case on this issue. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Controversial junk mail (not from Don or Olin, from the MPS)
Eli from Linden Hills "happy_happy" is the first person to even speak to my first core point- is MPS subsidizing the cost of these classes? I will again state, for the benefit of those on and offlist who misread, misunderstood, or ignored me when I asked IF MPS is subsidizing these classes, there is a serious concern. Again, why are we subsidizing classes (if we are) that are immensely individual (and not pivotal to future success in life) in taste when significant numbers of MPS students are failing to read at grade level and perform math at grade level? It was suggested to me offlist that perfume blending or wreath making could teach skills for a future business. So be it, but again -not at the expense of children needing to know how to read so they may attain good jobs or run successful perfume blending businesses (among others). --- happy_kappy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am utterly confused about all this stuff > regarding the community schools > offering. I understand that the community schools > are entirely self > sustaining and do not rely on funds from MPS. Kristine Harley states, "As for community classes, I don't believe that only demand drives curriculum. If you offer it, they will come. (Hint!) One of the reasons I moved to Northeast was the Catholic and Orthodox Christian presence here". and... "There's also a disturbing trend in our nation toward a strictly emotional experience of Christianity, as opposed to scholarly knowledge". On both quotes, I agree -though I'll maybe speak for Mr. Brauer in saying the latter is probably not Minneapolis specific. DeWayne Townsend stated, "As a Lutheran I do believe in an individuals interpretation of scripture, but it needs to be done in a intellectual setting not an emotional one. Most fundamentalist teaching about Christianity is not". I would mention that while there are certainly Lutherans who believe in individual interpretation and discussion is worthwhile, I'm not sure historic Lutheranism and some Lutheran denominations would agree that individual interpretation is a good, proper, or Lutheran belief. Indeed, individual interpretation can lead to two people holding opposing beliefs. A cannot equal both A and non-A. Okay, David, I'm done with the parts of non-Minneapolis specific talk. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Controversial junk mail (not from Don or Olin, from the MPS)
nderstand the difference between teaching theory and state sponsorship of religion. It is my contention, in practice, these classes potentially cross the line in the eyes of those advocating complete secularization. I remind Mark that I don't agree we must have complete secularization of the public square in order to respect the separation clause. I would probably argue to the contrary. With that said, it is silly to suggest we ban every class on religion at the U of M. Mark writes, "If nothing else, the fact that these courses are listed under the heading of "Academic Enrichment" ought to make it fairly obvious that they're teaching and not preaching". Dismissing that two of the three classes I mentioned are not under the heading of "Academic Enrichment", I again suggest Mark refer to my comments speaking to Wizard's comments. Furthermore, whatever heading MPS felt they needed to put the class under is contradicted by the directions for taking these classes. Mark writes, "I'm sad to see that there would still be an attempt to make an issue of something like this in this day and age. What's next, will people complain that a belly dancing class promotes sexual promiscuity or that a scrying class promotes witchcraft"? What is the unspoken part of that thought, Mark? Clearly, you're trying to paint me in some corner by making me one of "those people who will make an attempt to make an issue of something like this". What is "this"? Are you trying to subtly imply that I'm some sort of racist or am horribly prejudiced? You need to explain this more clearly than trying subtle name-calling. You also need to drop the red herring arguments. I am not complaining about entirely individual opinions on the lines of belly dancing promoting (or not) sexual promiscuity. I'm arguing far more substantial arguments, namely that: 1) it is/would be inappropriate for the District to fund these classes when it is failing to nail the basics of reading and math, and 2) for those arguing strict separation of church and state, these actions cross their line. If were going to "C'mon " then I say -"C'mon Mark, for whatever disagreements we may have, you're smarter than red herring arguments". Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Controversial junk mail (not from Don or Olin, from the MPS)
As I checked my mail today, I found my normal Minneapolis Community Education classes catalog for Winter 2003. As I thought some about this, I came up with a few questions. Perhaps one of our School Board Members on the list can address my questions. 1) Does the enrollment fee for these classes cover the entire cost of the class, administration of this Minneapolis Public Schools program, and the cost to advertise these classes? I could be wrong, but even with many students contributing their tuition costs, the tuition seems rather low in many classes to cover the full cost of this. If I am correct and the District must subsidize these classes, then I question the wisdom of continuing this program in the light of budget crunches being experienced by the district. Keep in mind, I'm not necessarily questioning the merit of these classes (with the exception of the below question). I'm saying that if we have a district that can't do the basic job of graduating its regular students with the money it has, we need to focus our efforts to the basics instead of extra and superfluous programs. 2) I found it intriguing that Minneapolis Community Education is offering classes such as: Somali Culture and Islam; Yoga: Eastern Exercise & Teachings; and Shamata Meditation- Mini Retreat (retreat being held at the Mpls Buddhist Monastery). What is intriguing is that a government institution is teaching classes that are ostensibly religious in nature. Where are the separation clause activists on this? Although I disagree that the separation clause means we necessarily must completely secularize the public square, one would think that if complete secularization in order to observe the separation clause is your argument, you'd be complaining about these classes. Whether these classes have meritorious content is not the issue. The issue is that I can imagine if similar classes like "Kingdom of Tonga Culture and Christianity" (Tonga has a government that is heavily Christian and expressly keeps the Sabbath Day holy in its constitution) instead of "Somali Culture and Islam", or "Meditating on the Gospel of Luke" instead of "Shamata Meditation" were offered, people would be all up in arms that were trying state sponsored Christianity. Why the double standard? If the argument is we're only teaching "about" a religion and not "preaching" it (which I'd like to see when were meditating at a Buddhist monastery), then it is fully acceptable for Christian organizations to expect a class similar to "Meditation on the Gospel..." to be offered- on the argument they're only teaching "about" Christianity and not "preaching" it. Who would have thought junk mail could have been so controversial? Gary Bowman Audubon Park Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis pedestrian killed
Okay, let me offer some rebuttal First, I'm still waiting for answers to my original questions (which, admittedly, Gary Hoover may simply have not gotten to his emails to respond). What is the source of the information? Second, Mark Snyder writes, "It was that they were perfectly willing to let this woman's death go uninvestigated because there was no family or friends demanding an investigation." This statement is being made without confirmation that the police are indeed doing this. Furthermore, Mark writes "However, if Ms. Jones is now dead because the driver was under the influence, distracted by a cell phone, was speeding or was engaged in any other activity that one shouldn't be doing while driving, then I think some charge of negligent manslaughter or whatever it would be is most warranted and should be pursued with great vengeance". Of this I'm of two minds. Certainly, if the cause was negligent driving, then further action should be pursued (though not with "great vengeance". That only debases "us" as the moral center). However, what should be considered negligent? Some things, such as DWI or reckless speeding would be most likely considered negligent. There is little dispute that these things are highly likely to cause harm. I'm not sure if other things such as eating or cell phones reach such level, though. My concern is that if we make every little thing that may **or may not** be "negligent" such, we become a police state. Then what have we accomplished? Third, regarding Roxanna Orrell's thoughts, I first disagree that "many" of Minneapolis citizens have distrust of the police. Some? Yes. Many? No. If indeed there are large numbers of police not acting appropriately, why is there only a small minority claiming police misacting? I'm not trying to belittle the claims of those making such claims, but rather we must look at the good and the bad. I would also suggest, while not speaking for the MPD, that perhaps some citizens have so many times convicted the MPD of being the big, bad people they have -in a manner of speaking- given up. Perhaps some police have thought something akin to "It's already assumed I'll do the wrong job regardless of what I do, so why put as much effort to do otherwise?" Is this correct thinking? Of course not. Yet, police are just as human as you and me. I can imagine if I were told constantly I was always doing the wrong job no matter how hard I worked, I'd eventually lose resolve to try. Maybe some of my concern comes from watching the list and seeing precious few times (I can think of one or maybe two) police are praised or even encouraged to/for doing the good job. Let's keep in mind police voluntarily take a job where they put themselves in dangerous positions that none of us have chosen to do. Furthermore, police don't get to walk away if it gets "too dangerous" like we could. Perhaps we could try "walking in their shoes" before constantly telling police how horrible they are. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis pedestrian killed -- but no charges, no investigation?
Let me begin by clearly stating it is very sad that Ms. Jones died in such an accident. With that said, I have some questions of my own. Gary Hoover writes, "From what I understand, Janet Jones was a poor woman with no immediate family in town. I understand also that there will be no investigation of the crash that took her life, and that no charges will be filed precisely because she was a solitary poor person." What is the source of this information? I think before we can make such accusations, it is fair to ask and know what the source of the information is, and furthermore if this source is a reliable one. Gary Hoover also writes, "I read in the newspaper that no charges were filed. Why not? How did the crash occur? Were there witnesses? Were they interviewed by police? Did the police fully investigate to determine what happened and if charges are warranted?" There is an appearance, at least to me, that there is an insinuation of some type of "system against the poor woman" conspiracy. Why should we automatically second guess whether the police did the job they were supposed to do, that is to ask the proper questions and seek out the witnesses to asceratain if charges are warranted? If indeed the police haven't done the job they are instructed to do, then questions should be asked. However, let's not assume the police are "out to get the poor woman". Gary Hoover also talks about the Golden Valley woman who is struck and killed. I read the two Strib articles and both had little detail. With such little detail, I'm not sure we can really compare these two incidents. We otherwise risk comparing apples to oranges. As sad as this incident is, I would also argue that accidents sometimes just happen. It is very possible that nobody intended to harm or kill Ms. Jones (poor or not) but rather that people aren't perfect and someone made a terrible mistake. God help us if we reach the point where there is such vengence in our hearts that we must criminalize every honest human mistake and error. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] There's Progress To Report: A Less Stinky Subsidy for the Guthrie
We could apply that logic to a lot of things in the city, Vicky. Too bad we don't seem to do so often enough. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Victoria Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From today's Minneapolis Observer.. > > City officials, claiming the theater was engaging in > land speculation, > encouraged the Guthrie to renegotiate the deal. > "This is a public-private > partnership building this theater, and in order to > be partners, you have to > look at everyone else's interests and weigh that > against your own," said > Seventh Ward Council Member Lisa Goodman. "While > they would've liked to > have acted as a land broker and banked that land and > made a profit off of > it, they realized that there was a public interest > in keeping their faith > with the citizens of Minneapolis and not taking more > than they needed." > > [VH] Nice work Councilmember Goodman. Sincerely. > > Even though we're still subsidizing the elite > theater crowd, at least you > didn't let the Guthrie pocket a profit on our > generous gift. Thanks for > stopping the insult that usually goes with the > injury. > > NOW - can we apply this logic to housing developers > too? It would be a big > step in the right direction. > > Vicky Heller > Cedar-Riverside and North Oaks > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Death of Minneapolis man in custody ruled a homicide
Vanessa Freeman writes, "I must say however, that a few bad eggs can make the whole nest seem rotten to the core. But, we have to remember that there are some good officers that care about what happens in their place of employment and in their city. It is my hope that they would continue to do the best job they can to weed out the bad eggs in within their force". It is good to hear that we can see the good police officers also. I would dare say that the majority of officers are "good". Flawless? No. Good? Yes. I make my argument on this philosophy. If the majority of citizens of our fair city have seemed to have found our police force "good", then it is reasonable to believe the majority of Minneapolitans possess the good sense and intelligence to make this determination. Are there problems to be investigated? Sure. However, let's: 1) recognize police officers have immensely difficult and usually thankless jobs. They're always either doing too much or not enough, no matter what they do. 2) Don't get their licensing from a cereal box, it requires a college degree and psychological examining (at least in MN, and obviously Mpls). Let's root out the problems and acknowledge the good. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] You get what you pay for indeed.
Yes, Minneapolis is a more vibrant city than St. Paul and Minneapolis is the city I've chosen thus far to call home. With that said, I question if this vibrancy justifies a continual increase of taxes (indeed, an upcoming tripling). I'm hard pressed to answer yes. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Mike Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was born and raised in St. Paul, for 20 years. > This May I moved to > Minneapolis, and eventually to Uptown. > > I still hate St. Paul and love Minneapolis. St Paul > is an empty shell of a > city. It's downtown boasts nothing but a few big > toys Norm Coleman bought > with my taxes to pump blood in a lifeless urban > center. I can count on one > hand the few places I like in downtown St. Paul > (Artist's Quarter, > Cosetta's, Sakura, I think that's it). > > The only good part of St. Paul is the > Midway-University-Grand sort of area, > due to it's closer proximity to Minneapolis and a > bunch of rich colleges. > > Seriously, go to downtown St. Paul on a Friday > night. It's disgusting... > there's nobody around! I will never regret my > migration to the vibrant > urban community that is Uptown. The word community > did not exist in the > East Side of St. Paul. > > I remember my mom used to work at Carson's at > downtown St. Paul. We would > ride the bus and shop at stores downtown. She was > transferred and then laid > off when Carson's went kaput, and as for the store, > they are all gone now. > What happened? > > -Mike Jones > Uptown > > _ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Here is the 2003 Minneapolis Spending Plan
Hear, hear! What "other" expenses am I generously paying for in my taxes? And, what funds need to be "transferred"? (Honestly, I would be interested in what these categories are. Who on the list can inform me/us?) Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- ken bradley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I am no expert at city spending but a quick look at > the expenitures would want me to have more detailed > information about Public Works, MCDA, Debt Service, > and Other. I always have intrest in the expenditure > under the catagory of "Other" and would like more > information. I am curious what is "Transfer to Other > Funds"? > Ken Bradley Corcoran Neighborhood > Victoria Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:The following breakdown was distributed at the > Truth in Taxation hearing > last night. The total budgeted expenditures are > $1.22 Billion. > > 231,800,000 Public Works > 146,400,000 MCDA > 122,000,000 Capital Improvement > 122,000,000 Debt Service > 97,600,000 Other > 97,600,000 Police > 97,600,000 Transfers to Other Funds > 73,200,000 Park Board > 48,800,000 Fire Dept > 48,800,000 City Coordinator > 24,400,000 Health & Family Support > 24,400,000 Convention Center > 24,400,000 Licenses & Inspections > 24,400,000 Library Board > 24,400,000 Other Independent Boards > 12,200,000 City Attorney > > > Vicky Heller > Cedar-Riverside and North Oaks > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls > > > - > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] One last note on "real and imagined risks"
Alright, I've made my point and am putting this issue aside after this post. "Name-calling" doesn't have to be explicit to exist. It can exist implicitly also; perhaps that is an even more insidious thing. Thank you to my supporters for your support. Thank you to my detractors for whom without I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make my case. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Real and Imagined Risks
Andy, Are you in the rental business? If not, why not? If it's such easy cash, why isn't everybody on this list chomping at the bit to get into the rental business? Unless you can tell me you've personally gone through the business of property rental and it was so easy, quit telling me how I'm "at war" with my clients. I didn't mention this in my original post, but I am in a house that was turned into a duplex. When I first purchased the place five years ago, I rented the upstairs out to people I **personally knew**. Ultimately, I didn't get paid a lot of rent and ended up going through the very unpleasant process of evicting them because of it. Plus, these people kept their living space in such horrible filth, I was constantly worried about pest infestation. Since this incident, I haven't rented the upstairs in hopes of renovating it. However, I'm immensely jittery about ever renting it out, for fear the thousands of dollars I will have invested (not to mention blood, sweat, and tears of my own work) will be for naught. Unless you can say you're in the rental business and are burning dollar bills for fun, let's stop this basic name-calling. Have you considered that maybe people get into the rental business to serve a needed function (and again, I repeat it is a needed function of the city. A lot of people aren't willing and/or ready for home ownership)? Yes, they make some cash, but shouldn't they make something for the risk they take? Why do so many on this list seem to believe that people should put their money and effort into the city and get absolutely nothing in return? This is a completely unreasonable belief. I personally have at least not asked for massive subsidies for my investment, not even -at least thus far- NRP dollars for home repairs. What I seem to hear in subtle manner too often on the list is that every person who is willing to risk their own cash they've worked hard for in the city is nothing but a soulless bloodsucking human being. Then you wonder why there's some animosity. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Andy Driscoll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This post points up a major problem with the rental > business. Landlords see > themselves at war with their own clients - their > renters. If any business > were this miserable for its owner(s), they would > abandon it for something > else. > > But it's not. It's a huge, wealth-making business, > often at the expense of > decent living conditions for their clients, and most > landlords would just as > soon limit their clientele to nice, well-heeled > white folks. But they buy > into areas they themselves declare risky, then whine > about the risks and > ignore the conditions of their buildings using their > terrible renters as > excuses for withholding repairs and maintenance that > would make the living > conditions and their relationships with renters - > better. > > All the while they rake in the money. > > Andy Driscoll > Saint Paul > > I (cannot) submit the whole system of my opinions to > the creed of any party > of men (and women) whatever in religion, in > philosophy, in politics, or in > anything else where I was capable of thinking for > myself. Such an addiction > is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. > --- Thomas > Jefferson (updated) > > > From: Gary Bowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:19:03 -0800 (PST) > > To: Minneapolis Issues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [Mpls] Real and Imagined Risks > > > > I would remind Mr. Mork, and the list, rental > property owners take risks > > beyond what's suggested below. > > > > Yes, landlords do cushion themselves with first > and last months rent (or one > > months rent and a deposit). However, a less than > honorable tenant can > > quickly do far more damage to a property than this > "cushion"- especially if > > they decide "it's not my property, so why should I > care?". I'm not implying > > all, or even most, renters would do intentional > damage. But, guessing a > > month's rent to be about $500-600 and a deposit of > perhaps equal, it would > > take not paying a month's rent and some carpet > damage to level this > > "cushion". > > > > For small property owners, such as an > owner-occupied duplex or fourplex, > > such a hit is a HUGE risk to take. And, if this > small property owner doesn't > > have other resources to repair damage done, it is > going to be difficult to > > keep your property value up, or even be able to > continue to re
Re: [Mpls] Real and Imagined Risks
I would remind Mr. Mork, and the list, rental property owners take risks beyond what's suggested below. Yes, landlords do cushion themselves with first and last months rent (or one months rent and a deposit). However, a less than honorable tenant can quickly do far more damage to a property than this "cushion"- especially if they decide "it's not my property, so why should I care?". I'm not implying all, or even most, renters would do intentional damage. But, guessing a month's rent to be about $500-600 and a deposit of perhaps equal, it would take not paying a month's rent and some carpet damage to level this "cushion". For small property owners, such as an owner-occupied duplex or fourplex, such a hit is a HUGE risk to take. And, if this small property owner doesn't have other resources to repair damage done, it is going to be difficult to keep your property value up, or even be able to continue to rent your property. Let's remember, rental property owners serve a needed function in Minneapolis. They provide a place for people not ready, willing, or able to buy a place. Let's remember this before we start the subtle name-calling on rental property owners. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Jim Mork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It is quite amazing to see list participants > claim as some do that landlords experience > unusual risk. Heck, they are in one of the > safest businesses on earth. Their main risk is > not getting paid, and they cushion themselves > from that by requiring first and last month's > rent. Even the utility companies don't do that. > Plus, they own an asset that never goes to zero > like so do. Look at what happened to employees > of Moline and Enron and you see REAL risk. I > guess anytime a landlord wants to trade the > illusion of risk in owning land for the real risk > of hiring out time and skills, they are welcome > to do so, but the people who buy their real > property will be shaking their heads (which > smugly enjoying the chance to make money off the > seller's fallacious notions). > > = > Jim Mork -- Cooper Neighborhood > > > Help stop spam -- Join SpamCon Foundation, > http://www.spamcon.org > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] In case you wanted one more anti-war res post...
First, let me confess that I write this email after doing the following: 1) not reading list posts in three days, 2) coming to find 167 emails, 3) deleting approximately 120 emails not related to "anti-war resolution" (and I offer my apologies for all those who wrote on something else, there's just no reasonable way I'd make it through all of them on my slow little laptop), 4) read through the "anti-war" emails, and 5) have the advantage of posting after taking them all in. The general concensus among the "anti-war resolution supporters" is that it is a Minneapolis issue, because if funding is going to a war effort, it's not coming to programs Minneapolis needs, etc. By that logic, I could as easily argue for a pro-war resolution, as James Jacobsen somewhat did. If Chicago O'Hare Airport turned into a fireball because of a terrorist attack, then lots of resources will not be coming to Minneapolis because of the need to defend against the attack and also to rebuild. As such, it's in Minneapolis' interests to be proactive to make sure the O'Hare attack doesn't happen. So I could go on and on with this vein. However, a pro-war resolution could be made as in the interests of Minneapolitans, so beware of this double-edged sword you're wielding (hmmm, maybe that isn't the best visual for this discussion). Also keep in mind that the City hasn't gotten down the problems completely within the realm of the city, as R.T. has intelligently pointed out. If we don't have these problems down, it doesn't make sense to take on these resolutions that have much more to do with ideology instead of pragmatism. Then there's the argument of "war only begets war". What should we do? Just sit around and plead with the terrorists, "oh, please don't bomb us! We'll play nice if you do!" However nice such a thought may be, it is simply naïve to deny that humans behave in certain ways, which includes preying on weaker people. This whole concept of appeasement was tried once before about 65 years ago, and six million Jews paid dearly for it (not counting all those who eventually had to fight Hitler to stop him from continuing his evil ways). Then there's the sentiment that since there's been no 10,000 person "pro-war rally" that apparently the vast majority of Americans are against war but just too stupid to believe they're in the majority. First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Even without a specific rally, it's not logical thought to say there aren't 10,000 people in support of action against Iraq just because there hasn't been a specific rally. I would think it more likely that a "pro-war rally" isn't deemed necessary because our President is on the side of most Americans who realize we can't just sit and wait for the next 9/11. Keep in mind 10,000 is less than 3% of the Minneapolis population and less than 3/10th's of 1% of the state population. We really need to get beyond this mentality that only a certain elitist community of citizens are wise and know the answers for the rest of their fellow dumb Americans (or Minneapolitans, for that matter). Such a philosophy is incredibly insulting and should almost certainly be rejected by those being told they're only going to be okay by listening to these elitists. Finally, as James Jacobsen generally pointed out, it's of no surprise that Hussein hasn't explicitly made a terrorist attack against us. If he were to specifically use weapons of mass destuction against us, it would be confession of having them (which he supposedly doesn't). Such an action would be a death-knell for Hussein as all the debating at the UN would quickly end and most everyone would turn against Hussein and his demonstrated desire to use these weapons. Hussein may be an evil, evil man but he isn't stupid. He will logically work in much more clandestine ways. Keep in mind the same Hussein you want to protect through your "Minneapolis anti-war resolution" is the same one who has publicly expressed his -to put it mildly- disdain for Americans and has previously used weapons of mass destruction on his own people. Why do you seem to think he'll just suddenly stop if we all hold hands and sing Kum-ba-ya? War is never comforting. Do I wish there were another way to reach resolution? Sure. However, I hope everyone lobbying for this Minneapolis City Council resolution will carefully consider the words of Teddy Roosevelt, "Wars are, of course, as a rule to be avoided; but they are far better than certain kinds of peace." The peace you are seeking with this resolution is one where we live in fear of the next attack while all sit around and wring our hands. Gary Bowman Audubon Park _
Re: [Mpls] Anti-war resolution
Just because 22 other City Councils seem to believe that despite their being elected by only their cities residents they somehow have the right to speak for the whole country, it doesn't mean any of them are justified in doing so. Although I would imagine most City Councils are under a similar oath, I'm certain that Minneapolis City Council Members, in being sworn into office, swear to uphold the U.S. Constitution. The authority to declare war (or by implication not) rests with the Congress (Article I, Section 8), not the Minneapolis City Council. City Councils are elected by members of a city to represent them on city matters. City Councils should be concentrating on city issues. If City Councils concentrated on city issues, maybe there would be less problems in cities. Contact your Congress member, Senators, and President for national issues. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- David Shove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Excerpt > > Subject: Ann Arbor City Council Votes For Anti-War > Resolution > > By Christopher Johnson, Daily Staff Reporter > Michigan Daily - December 03, 2002 > > http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/12/03/3dec4b98b > fdfc?in_archive=1 > > Voices arguing against the nation's movement toward > war found a > sympathetic audience at the Ann Arbor City Council > meeting last > night. Joining 21 other cities, including Washington > and Detroit, the > council voted 7-1 in favor of a resolution against > war with Iraq. > --end > > Now, if Ann Arbor and Washington and Detroit can do > it, why not Mpls? > > I believe that councilperson Dean Zimmermann > advances this every week or > so, the last vote I know of 8 to 5, against. With 2 > votes switched, 6 to > 7, for. I think the IS the business of the city > council; it is all too > easy to hide a pro-war vote under the claim that > it's none of our > business. > > --David Shove > > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Minneapolis had plenty of financial resources - but they were squandered
May I humbly offer a compromise? MCDA employees as individuals are likely no more greedy than any other segment of society. In neighborhood activism, I have personally worked with MCDA staffers who I believe worked with professional and personal integrity. The MCDA as an agency has made a number of policy decisions that have had an element of greed in them, whether the greed comes from developers with their hands out or others. It's immensely hard to argue that Target, Brookfield, Carlson Companies, and others did not have the wherewithal to finance their projects without the City/MCDA being their savior. These companies, however, didn't dance alone. The MCDA had to be a willing partner in the dance and, for whatever reasons, was too quick to take up the dance partner. Gary Bowman Audubon Park --- Jack Kryst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I deeply resent the characterization of MCDA > employees as greedy. In my > 20+ years at the MCDA I can attest that there are no > windfalls to be > found there and no one looking for them. What you > will find there are > dedicated people spending their professional lives - > and pieces of their > personal lives - to improve this community. They've > done that through > good and bad leadership and bad and good policy > direction. > > Jack Kryst > King Field > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ > "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; . . . > The best lack all convictions, while the worst > Are full of passionate intensity." ~ W. B. Yeats > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf > Of Victoria Heller > Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 11:59 AM > To: Mpls Forum > Subject: [Mpls] Minneapolis had plenty of financial > resources - but they > were squandered > > > Jim Graham wrote: > > "So please do not tell me about resources. It is > the City leaders duty > and obligation to provide whatever resources are > necessary to solve the > problem. If they have to raise taxes then they just > have to raise taxes. > State law actually says that Minneapolis City > Officials failing to > enforce State and Federal Laws shall constitute a > gross misdemeanor, and > if found guilty of so doing the offender may never > again hold elected > office in the State of Minnesota. If this law were > to be actually > enforced, Brian and Joe would not be the only ones > out of office." > > Vicky comments: > > Minneapolis HAD vast resources, but the money was > flushed down the > toilet by inept Councilmembers, greedy MCDA > staffers, and clever real > estate developers. > > The MCDA has gone through over $500 million dollars > in the past ten > years: For What? Our City debts exceed $1.5 billion: > For What? Our > annual payments for debt service alone are over $130 > million: For What? > > Each time you hear "There's not enough money" - just > remember that > Minneapolis HAD more than enough money: It was > simply wasted. > > Each time a senior citizen has to give up his or her > home because the > property taxes are too high, remember the $37 > million we gave to > Brookfield Development. > > Each time a young couple finds it too expensive to > buy a house, remember > the $20 million we gave to the Radisson Hotel. > > Each time a family finds itself in foreclosure, > remember the $63 million > we gave to Target. > > And so on, and so on, and so on. > > The forthcoming lie is: "The taxpayers in > Minneapolis are unwilling to > fund blah, blah, blah." > > The truth is: The taxpayers in Minneapolis are > incredibly generous. > The problem is that the City government spends and > borrows with no > restraint - because our leaders would rather be > popular than do the > right thing. > > Vicky Heller > Cedar-Riverside and North Oaks > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn > E-Democracy Post messages to: > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, > Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Supportive housing
Well, after having taken a LOA from the list (for a variety of reasons which likely are of little importance to the list), I'm pleased to make my return. Hopefully, there will be a minimal number of people actively opposing my return! I read Mark Anderson's comments with interest. It seems that Mark was attempting to suggest a pragmatic approach -for better or worse- to what seems to be a concern for SH. It furthermore seemed, at least in part from the "less excitable" responses Mark posted, that the response was subtle class warfare (the suggestion of clustering is only a richer vs. poorer scheme) and the calling of those who might support such an approach of being "NIMBYite's". If I'm correct in this, that is unfortunate. If I'm mistaken in my read, please clarify. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Mark's arguments. Despite some downsides, it does make some sense to have amenities needed by residents of SH closely available. In fact, having a nearby busline and nearby stores would seem to be a "quality-of-life" issue for people dependent on buses for transportation. It also seems to make some sense to have efficency in providing social workers and others to residents of SH. This may not be the final answer to the question of location of SH, but should be an element of it. I also reject the idea that residents of SH "deserve" to live here or there. Do not confuse what one "deserves" with our collective sense of compassion for residents of SH. Why do residents of SH "deserve" a certain neighborhood any more than anyone else? We can be compassionate and work to help people in SH to achieve lives of independence. However, compassion without accountability is sinister. Those we have compassion on must be expected to live independently ASAP. That means they may start in a poorer neighborhood and have to work themselves up to another place to live, just like most who live in the "richer" neighborhoods did (whatever "richer" might be defined as). To have compassion without accountability is ultimately the teaching of dependence and not giving the dignity we all seem to believe each individual has. I would argue, however, that there is a danger in putting too much SH in one area. The danger is that of "ghettoizing" an area. There are too many examples of "ghettoization" and if not watched, can quickly lead to far more concerns than what Mark suggested. Hopefully my "inaugural" post, being written at a very late hour, makes some sense. Gary Bowman Audubon Park __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kelly vs. Rybak for a ballpark
As many of you may recall in my previous posts, I am an unabashed **publicly funded** stadium opponent. However, I have always attempted to separate the issues Barbara brings up. If Rybak (or anyone else, for that matter) can build a stadium without public money or risk of public bailouts, then I'm all for a stadium. Let the private market practice what they preach: less government, less taxes, free market, RAH, RAH, RAH! Build on, RT! With that said, it remains to be seen a single proposal that doesn't include either public money or the risk of a public bailout. Finally, my humble opinion is that Rybak would be viewed as a great hero if he'd put together a privately funded deal. Imagine the bragging rights he'd have; he campaigned on putting down the checkbook and picking up the phone and that's exactly what he did. Better yet, he saved the Twins for the (hopeful) long term. Gary Bowman 1-1 --- "Barbara L. Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Growe's column brings up the issue I have always wondered about re the stadium debate on this list. That is, are Minneapolitans opposed to a stadium per se, or just the idea of taxpayer's money going into one? While some have separated these issues, several posts muddy these two ideas together". __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Affordable Housing - Move in tomorrow......
I'm not certain of what Ms. Heller is implying in her post below. My guess is that she is implying that there really is affordable housing in the city, if we'd just look for it. If I'm mistaken, please accept my apologies and I ask for a correction. That said, I would respectfully offer some thoughts, on the assumption that my guess is correct. The rents shown below seem to run around $600/month. Most landlords ask for three times rent as minimum income for their tenants. This would mean that a tenant, in order to afford a $600 rent, needs to make $1800/month. $1800 is $21,600 yearly, or $10.38/hour at full time. This is also gross income, not net. Assuming that appoximately 28% of gross income goes to taxes and other deductions, take home income runs around $1300. All of my quick math means that the roughly median rent will require almost half of your monthly income, if you have a job that pays enough to qualify for the apartment. Now, if you're a single person with no dependents, an argument can be made that you COULD get by on this budget. Nothing luxurious, but you'd be off the street , able to feed yourself, and make enough to buy a bus pass. However, add a dependent or two and this tight budget quickly becomes unmanagable. Or, make less than $10.38/hour (and many of the people in needed entry level jobs make less than that) and the budget quickly becomes too tight. I'm not arguing that people of modest means are necessarily entitled to hand-outs just because they're of modest means. On the contrary, I don't support hand-outs to individuals much more than I support hand-outs to corporations. People can and have gotten by on very modest means by hard work, my family being at that point also when I was younger. If anything, I'd argue that if we agree that restaurant workers, retail workers, hotel housekeepers, bank tellers and many other jobs are needed in this local economy, then it is in the best interests of all to see if we can work with private developers to find housing that workers of modest means can afford. Just a few thoughts while I'm staying up much too late for the new job I need to be at in the morning. Gary Bowman 1-1 P.S. Looking at the NE Mpls. rents, apparently NE landlords have changed their outlooks on rents. I remember that NE always used to be the area where you could get cheap rents in safe neighborhoods, as long as you didn't need glitzy neighborhoods. However, it appears there's little difference in NE rents from other rents nowadays, Uptown excepted (gotta pay for the glitz around Hennepin Avenue ;-) ). On Mon, 07 January 2002, "Victoria Heller" wrote: > > Apts & Condos - Minneapolis (Monday's Star Tribune Classifieds) > I just randomly clipped a few.. > > * LORING PK & STEVENS SQ * Studios $435-$510 1BR's $550-$650 Hwd flrs, > quiet bldg, professional landlord ref's req'd 612-871-2155 www.copenet.com > Published 07-Jan-2002 > -- > > LAKE OF THE ISLES Emerson Av 1924, studio apt $445/mo, avl immed, ph > 612-374-3284 Published 07-Jan-2002 > -- > > EAST RIVER TERRACE 2101 On the River. Beaut studios & 1 BR apts. Hdwd > floors. Ht pd. $600 & $750. 612-333-2057 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > STEVENS AVE S 36XX Huge 2BR, hdwd flrs, 4 season porch. $720. > 612-822-7286 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > LINDEN HILLS Blv 42xx. 1BR, top flr of hse, offst prkg,lake 1 blk,no > pet $675 612-822-0222 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > NICOLLET & 38TH Spacious 1 BR, new crpt $595. Avail 2/1 or earlier > 612-810-9390 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > NICOLLET AVE S 4422 Spac 1BR in turn of the century brick building, > upr lvl, hrdwd flrs, lots of closet space, vintage features, ht pd, avail > 2/1, $695. Chad or Tracy 612-823-1227 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > 38TH & NICOLLET AV S Spac studio, berber crpt, avail 1/15 & 2/1, $495. > Controlled entry. Call Amy 612-827-9098 Published 06-Jan-2002 > -- > > LONGFELLOW & 36th 1 lg BR redecor, off st pk, 2 fam dplx $650 ht/ele > pd
Re: [Mpls] TIF for dummies
Conor, or anyone else so inclined, can contact the MCDA and they can give you a list of current TIF projects. I did this once and it was really quite easy. If I recall correctly, they will ask for some parameters of your search (i.e. Ward 1). From there, I would imagine you could pick a specific project and inquire further. Regarding Best Buy in Richfield, I am almost certain that it was a TIF project with vast amounts of land taken by eminent domain. The land was taken on the somewhat dubious claim the properties were "substandard". The properties may have not been fresh off the developer's lot, but it was a stretch for them to be considered "substandard". Sorry for the not Minneapolis issue mention. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Fri, 28 December 2001, Conor Donnelly wrote: "Wise list members, I'm wondering if perhaps anyone can give a rookie like me some insight on researching TIF, or point me in the right direction. I've struggled to get my brain around this for quite a while, so I'd love to get a hold of some kind of TIF fact sheet, if one exists. Something summarizing the history of TIF, figures on how extensively its been used, step by step how the process works, and what does the future hold for TIF? I've only been following this discussion list for about a year now, and never before had any interest in this sort of thing. People seem to have very polarized opinions on TIF, especially concerning the "but for" part". --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] DFL Meeting
Granting that I wasn't there and can only comment on the info Becky graciously offered to us, I must say that a 19-16 vote seems to be less than a clear mandate. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Thu, 27 December 2001, "Becky Boland" wrote: > > FYI--Tonight, for those of you who were not there, the Minneapolis DFL > Central Committee passed a resolution 19-16 in support of a DFL'er in the > positions of Council President, Vice president, and Chair of Ways and Means. > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > ___ > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Minneapolis Twins??
Steven appears to be writing this out of good intentions. I would argue, however, the City of Minneapolis is no more in a position to be buying a team than building a stadium, especially in an era of tight budgets for basic services. Let's make sure every street is plowed and swept, every street is properly maintained, crime is more under control, boarded up properties are attended to, our parks are well-maintained, ALL of our City debt is paid in full, and every person who is willing to work has a place to live. Once these basics are done, then it seems appropriate to consider the worthiness or lack thereof in the City buying teams and building stadiums. However, if a private entity wants to spearhead a drive to form a corporation to sell stock and use the proceeds to purchase a team and a stadium, then let's support that. Of course, that has always been an option; it's an option that so far no "private entity" has taken the initative to do. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Thu, 27 December 2001, "Steven Froemming" wrote: Hello every one how are you doing today? I am doing just fine. I am writing today to find out what people think will happen in the up coming year dealing with the Twins. I know that this is a sore spot for most of us know but I wanted to know what people thought. I was thinking of all of the different possibilities that could happen and here is one that popped into my head last night. Could the team be bought by the City of Minneapolis? Could the residents of the city help pay for the team? Could the citizens of this great city help in the cost of a new ball park? I just wanted to throw out an idea out there because I don't want to see the Minnesota Twins leave. I also have thought that we the citizens of Minneapolis could help buy the team through public stock. I think that it would be good if we bought stock in the team because if people love there team so much they should buy stock in them to help the team out.I know that i would buy shares of the Minnesota Twins. I know that these ideas might seam impossible but I just wanted to know what you thought out here. Please don't be afraid to respond. Steven Mac.Donald Froemming 63A 11-6 Windom Twins Fan --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Superintendent pay in tight budget times
Andy makes a good point below. It IS insane that people don't throw a fit at indirectly paying towards astronomical salaries when we are getting upset about public servants salaries. I would suggest the difference is that I am not required to buy products from 3M if I feel that I'm supporting a $10M salary by buying Scotch tape. However, I am required by law to pay my taxes, unless I want to incur heavy consequences. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Thu, 20 December 2001, "Andy Driscoll" wrote: "Why do we not seem to flinch at the outrageous CEO pay in corporate circles, even when thousands, nay, tens of thousands in those same corporations' employ are pushed out the door? We're speaking millions here. This insistence citizens have for low salaries for public servants while tolerating the inflationary spiral executive pay in the private sector generates is beyond me. I guess people don't feel privileged to bitch about, say, the 3M Chairman's pay at $10 mil (whatever) while screaming bloody murder over the $190,000 salaries paid CEOs of major urban school districts. But guess what: the cost of your Scotch tape and all of 3M's products just jumped 3%-5%, maybe more, because of it. We just want to complain about taxes, not the prices we pay in the marketplace for far more egregious financial assault on the consumer's pocketbook." --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Superintendent pay in tight budget times
It's good to hear responses from at least some of the very people who made this decision. I'm pleased to hear that Mrs. Johnson is indeed donating at least part of her raise. As I mentioned before, it's largely symbolic but demonstrates at least some willingness on Mrs. Johnson's part to be true in spirit. Regarding the comparisons to private companies and private schools. I would ask how many of these corporations of comparable size and private schools are bleeding $30 million deficits and still offering their CEO's huge salaries and raises? Furthermore, this is really a comparison of apples to oranges. Sorry, Audrey and fellow Board members, in my mind you answer to the public and that means there's different standards. That's part of the gig of public service. Regarding the contributions Mrs. Johnson has brought in. This is indeed commendable. However, is Mrs. Johnson the only one that could have brought these contributions in? Regarding the percentage of administration as expenses, I am reminded of those who say things like there's liars and then there's statisticians. I'm not trying to say that anyone is lying or even intentionally misrepresenting themselves, but 4% of an immense budget can be more money than 8% of a smaller school district's budget. Hence, the statistics are truthful, but PERHAPS misleading. In the end, there's still a couple of basic facts, which is what most taxpayers are concerned about: The Superintendent makes an income not enjoyed by more than a precious handful of parents of students that she oversees in the schools. These same parents are going to be the ones that will have to work harder with a continued deficit that allows less for their kids. In the end, it feeds the fuel for pushes such as school vouchers as a means to force public schools to be more competitive. Gary Bowman Ward 1, Precinct 1 On Wed, 19 December 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Gary Bowman writes; > >I realize the value of spending a little now if it saves more later and > the value of quality products (in this case, a quality leader for > Minneapolis Public Schools). However, even with that consideration, I must > confess that I am immensely hard-pressed to justify a $30,000 raise to > $190,000 in my mind. Let's keep in mind of an expected, what is the > amount, $30 million shortfall? How do we say to parents that their > children will have to settle for less when a person who was already making > more than likely 95% of these parents is now getting a $30,000 raise? > > AJ: At our meeting last night, the Board voted to amend the > Superintendent's contract that had been agreed upon last July. The Board > had offered a $15 thousand raise in Nov. of 2000, Dr. Johnson turned it > down. When the Minneapolis Public Schools almost lost Dr. Johnson as > Superintendent last summer, the Board looked at every option available and > contingency plans to operate the district. We decided that the students > and families of this town would be better off with Dr. Johnson at this time > than any other alternative. She is recognized locally and nationally as > one of the top administrators. Incidentally, she has, through her efforts, > brought in over $8 million in private donations for the schools this year > alone. > > (from a recent post that I submitted, I offered the following explanation) > In a recent comparsion done by one of the major TV news channels, a > comparable business the size of MPS pays its CEO over $1 million. Private > schools in the area, such as Blake or Breck, pay their top directors more > than $190,000. and they have far less students, no special education and no > unfunded state or federal mandates. In the most recent audit received from > Deloitte Touche last night, MPS is running very lean on administration, the > district admin costs are at a little over 4% of expenses. Deloitte Touche, > McKinsey Group and EDS are all outside business consultants, 2 of which > have provided analysis of finances for MPS pro bono (for free). All 3 > firms have stated emphatically that the district is running too lean in > this area. Most non-profots run at 8-15%, privates schools in the area at > about 8%. > > >Furthermore, when Minneapolis taxpayers voted YES FOR SCHOOLS, I really > don't think it was the intent of the taxpayers to pay for administrative > pay raises (the article also mentions another $125,000/year for a COO, > adding insult to injury) > > AJ: The money that is raised by the referendum does not pay for > administrative costs. That revenue is put into a separate account which is > called fund 96. It specifically pays for teachers so we can have smaller > class sizes. > > >In conclusion, it&
[Mpls] Superintendent pay in tight budget times
Today's Strib (paper version, I couldn't find the article on the Strib website) talks about Mpls. schools Superintendent Carol Johnson's pay (it also discussed St. Paul Superintendent Patricia Harvey's pay, but this is a Minneapolis Issues post). Quotes from Board members and others go to great lengths to defend the position that $190,000 in pay is justified at the same time there's huge shortfalls that will likely result in cuts in the schools. The article discusses that the Board felt it was cheaper to give a pay raise than put out the expense of finding a new Sup. It also talks about the value of a good Sup. With the above background, let me now offer my humble thoughts. I realize the value of spending a little now if it saves more later and the value of quality products (in this case, a quality leader for Minneapolis Public Schools). However, even with that consideration, I must confess that I am immensely hard-pressed to justify a $30,000 raise to $190,000 in my mind. Let's keep in mind of an expected, what is the amount, $30 million shortfall? How do we say to parents that their children will have to settle for less when a person who was already making more than likely 95% of these parents is now getting a $30,000 raise? Furthermore, when Minneapolis taxpayers voted YES FOR SCHOOLS, I really don't think it was the intent of the taxpayers to pay for administrative pay raises (the article also mentions another $125,000/year for a COO, adding insult to injury) In conclusion, it's these antics that leave many people with the belief that money is being misappropiated and tax increases are unjustified. I would openly challenge Carol Johnson to return her pay raise to either the district or some school related charity (PTA?) and, of course, remain Superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools. Would this return of $30,000 to an immense budget be largely symbolic vs. of practical use? Yes, but it would demonstrate Carol Johnson's desire to run a good school system not only in letter but in spirit also. Gary Bowman Ward 1, Precinct 1 Questioning whether we voted YES for schools or YES for pay raises --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] own vs. rent
Some good thoughts, Craig. I also would have included the cost landlords incur when damage occurs to their property because of intentional acts or otherwise by their tenants. This definitely affects the profits supposedly being reaped. Furthermore, profits may be in order to a landlord as the investor since he/she takes the risk of loss on his/her investment. Finally, even if profits are being reaped, I would argue that's part of the trade off a tenant gives for the freedom of no responsibility that comes with being a homeowner (taxes, utilities, not being able to just walk away when you're done with the property but having to actually go through the lengthy and costly process of selling it). If, as a tenant, you don't want to part with the profits of land appreciation, then save your money, make sure your credit's in order, and buy a home. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Tue, 18 December 2001, "Craig Miller" wrote: Mr. Valez brings us a teachable moment. A thought on landlords: Why should a landlord expect that rents will cover the entire cost of their investment? Basically, the renters then pay the note and the cost of maintaining a property that they have no interest in and the owner reaps all the "wealth" created as the property appreciates in value both due to the market/land value and the mortgage gradually being paid off. (CM) I suppose landlords could just lose money, everyday, forever. Post continued... --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Hollywood Theater
Conor Donnelly asks fellow Northeasters about the status of the Hollywood Theater. Conor's timing was very good as recent news has come up just last night. Let me begin by stating that not only am I a Northeaster, I am also President of Audubon Neighborhood Association. ANA has been working on a long and windy road towards renovation of this gem in NE. With that said, let me tell you some history, recent events as they pertain, and hopeful future. Approximately three years ago, the MCDA sent out RFP's for redevelopment of the theater. Five proposals came in and two were found to be viable. Of those two, both made a presentation to the General Membership of Audubon Neighborhood Association (ANA). With that presentation, ANA gave its endorsement to Ed Finley and his small company, Fun-And-A-Half Productions. Ed has proposed restoring the theater as a live theater doing "new vaudeville" type shows (I believe this is a correct explanation, Ed can give you every last detail). The last three years, however, have been a rocky path towards moving this forward. The MCDA did not initially support Ed's project and the sentiment initially was that the MCDA was giving Ed the run-around. Over the last year, however, the MCDA has seemed to have come around. Yet, the previous behavior by the MCDA put an immense amount of distrust in Ed's mind. This led to a situation of Ed and the MCDA being at a stalemate and little happening. I should mention that ANA's role in this, besides general concern is initially $140,000 of NRP funds towards the project. As such, we've been anticipating progress and waiting for such. On Sept. 25th of this year, the ANA Board held a special meeting for Ed. At this meeting, Ed requested additional NRP funds. His logic was that we could take funds allocated for Johnson Street improvement (which the Hollywood, of course, is on) and dedicate those to the theater. This would allow Ed to pursue private financing, as opposed to financing through the MCDA. After discussion, the ANA Board allocated $150,000 of additional funds to the Hollywood. However, Council Member Paul Ostrow and the Board agreed that we needed to move forward on this within 30 days. Well, Oct. 25th came and went. During this time, Steve Cramer of the MCDA contacted ANA and expressed concerns about Ed's significant amount of paperwork needing to still be submitted. At the November Board meeting, a tense discussion was held with Ed Finley, Steve Cramer and Sharrin Miller-Bossi, Paul Ostrow's aide Catherine Geisen-Kisch, and the ANA Board. The meeting ended with Ed having one last month to show "significant progress" towards moving the project forward or else the Board would vote to recommend to the General Membership that other development options be explored. The Board met last night. I am pleased to inform all who might be concerned that Ed Finley demonstrated he is indeed a showman and brought most of the paperwork needed by the MCDA to move forward. He is a showman as until last night, he let on very little that he had this paperwork and I suspect he wanted to make sure there was a big splash. MCDA staff do need to review this paperwork and there is still some paperwork to be completed. These items should happen over the next two weeks. If all goes well in these areas, I suspect a development contract could be worked out between Ed Finley and the MCDA and MCDA staff could take it before the Council relatively soon. If all of this goes well, construction could begin this summer. I must admit that until last night, I was not hopeful that Ed Finley would be able to make this project happen. However, while there is still work to be done before bricks and concrete are moved and shows are performed, I am now newly hopeful. We will see over the next few weeks if the remaining paperwork and obstacles will be overcome. At this point, it will be a great disappointment if it is not. If anyone is interested in more information, I suggested sending an email to either myself or Audubon Neighborhood Association's office at [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you send email to ANA's office, please have pity on our staff person if she doesn't respond right away. She's an excellent staff person but very busy. Thanks for everyone's time. One way or another, ANA is looking forward to a new Hollywood Theater in Northeast Minneapolis! Gary Bowman Writing as President of Audubon Neighborhood Association Living in 1-1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Paul Ostrow on the Ballpark
Mark, Two things on being the envy of the nation for "only" spending $10 million on a stadium. 1) If I truly believed the final cost was $10 million and nothing more would be worked into the picture, it MIGHT change the picture as I see it. However, I seriously doubt that will be the case, whether it's city funds or otherwise. Even authors of the charter amendment quietly confessed there were loopholes if a future Council were so inclined. 2) $10 million dollars could fix either a lot of potholes on Johnson St., Nicollet, Lake St., pick your favorite street, it could have paid for all the new lighting on Central Ave. NE instead of the neighborhoods having to pony up NRP dollars probably dozens of times over, it could have renovated the Shoreham Yards Roundhouse 2-3 times over and brought much needed development to Central Avenue, or any other litany of things to do. These items have a much broader appeal to many more people than a ballpark. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Mon, 10 December 2001, "Mark Snyder" wrote: > > Responding to the message of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > from Eva Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > It's still increased taxes whether it's the state or the city -- and > > there's a big shortfall in the state budget right now. > > What increased taxes? Where has anyone said extending a loan for financing a > ballpark would require a tax increase? The whole point of doing the loan and > paying it back through surcharges on parking or whatever is that such a plan > would NOT require general tax revenues OR a tax increase. > > > How many people stay in hotels or visit restaurants after Twins games? And > > how many people stay in Minneapolis Hotels and eat in Minneapolis > > Restaurants after Twins games? > > The visiting players and their staffs do after every game, as do some of the > home team players. Many games also are attended by folks visiting from out of > town - check the Strib or PiPress sports pages to see various examples of tours > you can go on to see your favorite home team play on the road. Presumably, they > would stay in a hotel in either Minneapolis or Bloomington. Arguably, the Twins > might be more popular for this type of thing than some others because our ticket > prices are far below average and we have that neat shopping mall near the > airport. > > > Studies on this issue have shown that when there isn't a pro sports team, > > people spend their entertainment dollars in other ways. > > But do they spend them downtown? Or do they go to movies or shopping or > whatever out in the suburbs where parking is free and traffic is generally less > of a hassle? > > > Well I'm one who has gone to about 3 or 4 twins games since living in the > > cities. I also think that the quality theater in Minneapolis makes this > > city unique. There are lots of cities that have pro sports -- but not many > > cities that have the quality of theater and arts that we do here in > > Minneapolis. > > So? Quality theater means it deserves public funding? What about those folks > who could give a fig about theater or who are deaf like me and so may not be > able to fully appreciate a play or orchestral performance? One nice thing about > pro sports for me is that it's all visual, or at least enough so that I can keep > up with everything despite being unable to hear. Although I do venture out for > the occasional small show because I have friends who perform. Again, I don't > mean to knock the performing arts, but saying that they deserve public funding > and a ballpark doesn't strikes me as both hypocritical and snobbish. > > > Neither the planetarium or any of the theaters that get public money pay > > workers the type of out of control salaries that ball players make. > > And also don't generate the kinds of taxes the ball players do. Do you realize > that visiting baseball players pay income taxes for the games they play here? > It totalled about $9 million in tax revenues for MN last year. That's on top of > the tax revenues paid by the Twins players. Not to mention the property taxes > paid by current and former ballplayers who live here or the millions in > charitable funds have been raised by these same players over the years. > > > As I understood it 67% opposed public financing. > > That's because you didn't read the whole article. You looked at a pie chart on > the front page. Had you ventured inside to the rest of the article, you would > have seen a table listing a variety of financing options. Poll respondents > favored using monies from ticket/parking surcharges as I stated
Re: [Mpls] Paul Ostrow on the Ballpark
Looks like I've been a bit of a rabble-rouser! I don't necessarily read email every day. Yesterday was largely a no-read day (in matter of fact, it was a sleep catch-up day for this sleep deprived list member!) As such, my comments come a bit late. Others have largely offered a complete rebuttal for me and I won't belabor the point to the list. I do thank those who have offered an either intentional or unintentional defense of my comments. I will only mention a few items for the list and my friend/fellow Northeaster Mark Snyder. Is a publicly funded stadium different or less deserving of public subsidy than a planetarium? It's an interesting point and perhaps worthy of discussion. I would note, however, that the public has not said in clear majorities they oppose public funding of a planetarium. Bring a clear majority in opposition to funding a planetarium and I'd be amicable to opposition of planetarium funding, even if I personally may believe planetarium funding to be worthy. Furthermore, as Eva has pointed out, the finances and payrolls of MLB are vastly different from planetarium funding. Secondly, where did Paul state he'd use City funds? In his post he states, "...Of the remaining 1/3, a substantial amount would be raised through parking revenue from Twins fans parking in the existing ramps". I have yet to hear of the State of Minnesota building and operating any parking ramps in Minneapolis. Even if we take Paul's comments as only an insinuation and not a clear statement of using City funds, it stands to reason that at some point City funds will be used beyond what they've already been used (used in the way that it's used at City Hall continuing these discussions). Furthermore, Paul has stated publicly in the past he'd be agreeable to City funds being used. I believe he said it would be "appropriate" (at least to the $10 million charter imposed limit) Finally, even if it is only state funds being used, this is still a subsidy being spent on something that is hardly appropriate in the realm of government, especially in the current scenario of immense budget shortfalls. When Paul Ostrow (among others) at the city level show a willingness to entertain these subsidies, it feeds the fire at the state level. It allows state legislators to justify public subsidies. And, as I mentioned previously, this becomes the inch where the mile gets taken. Let me tell you that I don't want the Twins to leave, even if I don't have the opportunity to attend as many games as I'd like and if I dispute the amount of revenue they bring in and keep for the City (as opposed to that money being spent on the many other entertainment possibilities in Minneapolis). In any case, I cannot justify taxes being raised, basic services not being delivered, or other programs that can more legitimately be argued as needed not being offered so I can be entertained. I sincerely hope beyond hope that a fully privately funded solution can be found. Gary Bowman Ward 1, Precinct 1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Paul Ostrow on the Ballpark
uild a privately-funded stadium, it will embolden other cities to cut off what is essentially an addiction for MLB. The time has come for our politicians to show real leadership and call the bluffs, quit allowing themselves to be hostage to extortion, and just walk away. If the politicians won't play, MLB will have little choice but to rethink their game. Does that pose a risk of politicians being blamed "for losing the Twins"? Even the hellbent pro-public subsidy Strib has shown that won't be the case. If people blame anyone, the Strib's polling shows it will be a poorly managed MLB that will be blamed. In matter of fact, I believe the only reason that we are in this mess is that politicians WON'T show real leadership and stop discussing plan after plan. It's because of these continual attempts by politicians to force the issue that MLB keeps up their tactics. Gary Bowman 1-1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] R.T. and a Twins Stadium
Hans Eisenbeis writes, "...I gotta say that the larger point--indicating why it's ludicrous to sacrifice the twins, to no real end at all other than maybe to satisfy all the bleeding hearts on this list--has been refreshing". While, yes, the "bleeding heart liberals" have their stake in this, I also have to ask: what about the fiscally conservative Republicans? Aren't they the ones who talk less government, less taxes, free market? Aren't public subsidies for a stadium a clear mockery of these ideals? Indeed, even the stadium obsessed Strib acknowledged that the unique alliance of class-conscious liberals and fiscal conservatives is what has deep-sixed previous stadium plans at the Legislature. Gary Bowman 1-1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls stadum proposal
Quote from the Strib, "Rybak has been a staunch opponent of investing city money in a stadium, though he has said he is not opposed to financial backing from other governments. Ostrow said he would regard $10 million in city backing -- the maximum approved by voters for a stadium -- as 'appropriate.'" Let me mention once again what I stated before: Minneapolis voters DID NOT approve up to $10 million for a stadium, they capped it at ten million. As I collected signatures for the petition that put the question on the ballot, I was asked over and over again why $10 million? It should be $1! It is disappointing that my Council Member seems to fail to see this distinction. It is more disappointing that the person I voted for for Mayor seems to be hedging on an issue that I believed he was being very sincere in. RT, you talked about being a breath of fresh air with the green tree air fresheners and all. You're not even in office yet and I'm starting to question if the air will be fresh or just reconditioned. Restore my faith in you as a good Mayor! What is most frustrating is that we're all doing just what Bud Selig would like to see us do: panic. Once panic has set in, logic and thoughtful discussion goes out the window. Then my streets aren't plowed and maintained because my tax dollars are going to less needed things. Gary Bowman 1-1 On Wed, 28 November 2001, "List Manager" wrote: > > http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/861611.html > > David Brauer > List manager > > > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___ > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] My Two Cents on a Twins Stadium
Denise mentions, "I do know the City of Minneapolis taxpayers did vote for $10 million dollars to be used towards the effort of securing a stadium, but that was the limit of it". Respectful correction: The charter amendment, which I happened to be involved in the collecting of signatures for, stated that the City Council could not spend more than $10M on a professional sports facility without a voter referendum. I once heard Council Member Lisa Goodman state something to the effect of that we (Mpls. taxpayers) don't want to pay for a stadium. However, if you (Council) have the gall to spend on it anyway, there's a limit to how much you can spend without our say so. That's different from Denise' statement saying Mpls taxpayers authorized $10 million. We just capped it at $10M, if we have to spend on it at all. Gary Bowman Mpls., 1-1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] RT & the Twins
I also read the article today. To say the least, I was caught somewhat off guard by RT's comments. Granted, the Strib has yet to see a public subsidy for a stadium they didn't like so the story MAY be ever so slightly slanted to push and prod our new mayor (egad! the press is biased?! Say it ain't so! :-) OK, OK, I'm done.) A list member has brought it to my attention off-list that my comments here and elsewhere regarding the stadium have been blatant class warfare. I sent a lengthy email discussing that. What I said in a private conversation is not important for the list, other than to clarify that while I have and continue to remain opposed to subsidies for stadiums, I do so not just to be a class-warfarer but rather because I have always believed that it was a very poor deal for the public. This is especially in light of other more pressing needs where there is a better return on the public investment. In any case, I digress. As an opponent of subsidies, I hope RT is not sliding in his non-support of public subsidies. And, knowing that RT is a list member, I hope he'll comment and clarify, especially now that he is not a candidate. Finally, Andy Driscoll mentions no money is impossible. My thoughts are that if indeed land-clearing and cleaning were truly the extent of the investment and there were no deals that could bite us later (selling municipal bonds that the Twins/stadium default on), even a diehard opponent like me MIGHT consider it a fair compromise. Gary Bowman Mpls., 1-1 On Tue, 20 November 2001, "Andy Driscoll" wrote: I think it's important to understand that no public money for a stadium is impossible. All along it's been expected that land-clearing and cleaning will be critical as will infrastructure accommodations for any economic development in the city - perfectly appropriate expenditures. But that's where it ends for me. The structure, the perks, the stadium itself should be entirely privately financed. The Mayor cannot walk away from talks and concerns over the impending blackmail imposed by Major League Baseball. He must be involved, as must the City Council. Andy Driscoll Saint Paul --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] ballpark funding
Mark writes, in response to my statement that the private market has the wherewithal to build a stadium if they wanted to: "I'm trying to advocate the voice of the fan. If there were a way to build the ballpark fully from private funds in this market, I have to believe it would have been done by now." Maybe it's good for a diehard cynic like me (at least on the stadium battle) to hear something positive like this. I just look at the immense wealth we see in this world and have to ask how Pohlad can honestly argue he (or others in his circle) can't finance this. Again, Pohlad is a billionaire who recently sold a bank for $250 million plus. There alone he could nearly build a stadium and not touch his other $1B. Why did the world have to get this complicated? It's just supposed to be a game. Sigh... Gary Bowman 1-1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] SD61 Republicans know how to throw a party
Steve writes, "The next Governor of the great state of Minnesota made an appearance..." Why would a Democrat attend a Republican party? ;-) Gary Bowman Ward 1, Precinct 1 --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Park Police/David Shove post
David, I will make a response to your comments and then let the issue lie where it may. I do this mostly because I don't have the time for a knock-down, drag-out fight. In phrasing yourself as, "With more non-park cops...", there was clearly the insinuation that you were putting cops/police as one entire class of people; this was certainly the impression I received. It seems that saying, "With more non-park cops...", is similar to saying, "with more blacks in the neighborhood...". (or pick your own derogatory classification) I don't agree with either of those statements exactly because there is the impression that one is putting all of one group together. I would maintain that I would not be the only person on the face of this planet that would draw the same conclusion from your statements that I did. In any case, I will state that if it was truly not your intent to say that all police officers are the same and that there are indeed police officers who will strive to be the defenders of justice and the law, then I stand corrected. However, I hope that you realize that your comments and the way you phrased them could potentially give the impression that you WERE classifying all police officers as thugs. And, again, calling all police thugs will not give them any reason to even consider talking with the community. Gary Bowman Ward 1- Audubon Park On Tue, 30 January 2001, David Shove wrote: > > Mr Bowman > > You grossly (to put it mildly) misrepresent my comments, then proceed to > knock down the straw man you have constructed. > > Principally, at no point did I say ALL police. I defy you to find it. You > make it up, then slam me -- and most importantly my points -- as if you > were the fair one and I the biassed unjust one. > > What I said was, more police, more brutality. If even some of the extra > are brutal, that's true. > > But most importantly, it is NOT a question of INDIVIDUAL police - it is a > question of POLICY. > > Policy set by the Police Dept, policy set by Mayor Sharon SAyles Belton, > policy demanded by the ISAG corporations and the profiteers of Hwy 55, > etc. The main blame belongs AT THE TOP -- by our so-called leaders and the > over-rich families and corporations that CONTROL them. More police means > more goon squads to enforce the will of the rich on all the rest of us. > The main finger I point is at the rich masters of Mpls & MN, and their > governmental puppets (eg Belton). > > The individual police will do pretty much what they think policy is -- and > most of them KNOW it is to guard the rich and their assets against the > non-rich, and to aid the rich in grabbing everything they can from the > non-rich (that's us). > > So let's talk about Olson & Belton and ESPECIALLY the elite families that > mastermind the policies and the police-state-ization of our society. > > You don't get 800 UNBADGED cops showing up for an action at 3am in the > morning without massive direction from Belton & Co, as happened re Hwy > 55. Ditto their $1 million dollar "defense" of ISAG corporations. > > POLICY. POLICY. POLICY. Top down. From Olson. From Belton. From elite > profiteering families. POLICY. > > More cops nationally. More heavy police armor in all major cities. Many > more jails. The rich are finding more places (jails) to put their enemies, > and finding more puppets (cops) to put them there. A growing police state > is just what the rich are ordering up for all the rest of us. > > For a lot more on this, see Lockdown America: police and prisons in the > age of crisis, by Christian Parenti, Verso Press, 1999, paper 2000. > > I have come to feel SAFER when there are FEWER police. I support CUTTING > BACK their number by a sizable amount, and taking away their pepper gas > and rubber bullets and tank-like vehicles etc. > > --David Shove > > > > On 29 Jan 2001, Gary > Bowman wrote: > > I am going to offer a much more serious response to David's post, even if > Carol Becker offered a much more clever one. > > [Hers was clever? It was totally inaccurate - she speaks of park police > finding me, when the whole point of my post had to do with their > disappearance into the Mpls police.] > > Even if Carol hadn't brought forth her point that finding David is > unlikely, it must be stated that David's comments and stereotyping of ALL > police officers is unfair. I am not defending the actions of those > officers who choose to act in illegal manners. Those individual police > officers who engage in police brutality should be held accountable. > However, to say that all police officers WILL act in a certain manner and > not act in the man
Re: [Mpls] Park Police/David Shove post
I am going to offer a much more serious response to David's post, even if Carol Becker offered a much more clever one. Even if Carol hadn't brought forth her point that finding David is unlikely, it must be stated that David's comments and stereotyping of ALL police officers is unfair. I am not defending the actions of those officers who choose to act in illegal manners. Those individual police officers who engage in police brutality should be held accountable. However, to say that all police officers WILL act in a certain manner and not act in the manner of rightfully upholding the law is as improper as saying all African Americans are thieves or all Native Americans are drunkards. If one is going to call someone to task for stereotyping or "profiling" (and I would expect that David Shove may do this, looking at some of his posts), then one needs to practice what they preach. Finally, calling all police officers thugs does nothing towards furthering any hopeful dialogue with communities and Chief Olson. Gary Bowman Ward 1-Audubon Park On Mon, 29 January 2001, "Carol Becker" wrote: > Given there are about 35 sworn park police officers trying to patrol over > 170 separate park properties scattered throughout the over 50 square miles > of city, some of which are detectives and not on patrol, 24 hours a day, 7 > days a week, I would doubt the park police could ever find you. > > Carol Becker > Longfellow > > > - Original Message - > From: David Shove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Dean Zimmermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: Mpls list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 12:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Mpls] Park Board > > > > On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, Dean Zimmermann wrote: > > > > > > The business you have been reading about lately about the Park Board > sounds > > > a bit more titillating than it really is. Actually on most things the > Park > > > Board has almost universal agreement and when there is a divided vote, > the > > > majority/minority split is always configured differently. There are > some on > > > the Board now who feel the current leadership, President Solomon and VP > Fine > > > tend to cut off debate at meetings and to bring some items to the board > so > > > late in the process that they are done deals before some commissioners > know > > > they are happening. In particular, it seems that the leadership has > been > > > negotiating with the city to give away some of the Park Board's police > > > responsibilities to the city police. This is a significant issue, and > in > > > other cities where the Park Police have been folded into the city > police, > > > the parks end up not getting the police service that is needed. > > > > This would be very useful to me personally. After a brief examination, it > > has become clear to me that I am full of an enormous amount of crap, and > > with more non-park cops I stand a better chance of having it beat out of > > me. > > > > With more non-park police we can blow away more useless people with > > medical problems. > > > > With more non-park cops we can better defend the rich against First > > Amendment protestors (just what country do they think they live in > > anyway? And what makes them think they have any rights?) > > > > With more non-park police we can CODEFOR clear away useless poor people > > and unAmerican small businesses so developers can make a bundle serving > > rich people and big businesses. > > > > With more non-park cops we can crack a lot more heads with hard-swung > > batons, butter up a lot more eyes with pepper spray, swear at and threaten > > lower class people and protestors with guns. > > > > With more non-park cops we can hear a lot more Craak!! and Smack!! and > > O!! and Down on your knees you little piece of #!!! > > > > All of this would make GREAT television! > > > > > > --David Shove > > Roseville > > > > ___ > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy > > Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: > > http://e-democracy.org/mpls > > > > ___ > Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy > Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] 10th Ward: it's a council race!
FYI, in the 1st ward, I will be seeking the DFL endorsement for City Council. Gary Bowman Ward 1- Audubon Park On Thu, 25 January 2001, "David Brauer" wrote: > > Was called the other night by Douglas Kress, a King Field resident who has > decided to run for the 10th ward council seat presumably vacated by Lisa > McDonald when she runs for mayor. That makes Doug the second candidate, > after Dan Niziolek. A lot of us have been surprised that in such an activist > ward, there have been so few announced DFL candidates. > > Like Dan, it sounds like Doug is a current city employee, working on the > social-programs side with Way To Grow and the Youth Coordinating Board. (Dan > is a former CCP/SAFE officer now working for a program on crime prevention > through design.) > > Among other personal and political details, Doug told me he will seek DFL > endorsement but has not yet decided to abide by the endorsement should > someone else get it. (He was calling me because I am a 10th ward delegate. > He also supports my change to city-year delegate selection.) He talked of a > more collaborative approach with neighborhood residents and leaders, > something Dan has also spoken of. I got the sense, given his current job, > that he believes the city has a strong role in social programs, and based on > his experience, he can help make those programs both efficient and > effective. There were a host of other issues we rattled through but I'll let > him speak for himself on those since we only touched on them briefly. > > I offered him a chance to bring his candidacy "out of the closet" by sending > something to the Minneapolis-issues list, and he laughed and told me he is > out of the closet in one way already. Like Scott Benson in the 11th, Doug is > attempting to become only the second gay man, after Brian Coyle, to serve on > the Minneapolis City Council. He & his partner live in the 3900 block of > Garfield. > > Doug is probably too busy phoning delegates for our March 31 ward > convention, so after giving him a couple of days to post I figured I'd just > blab it. > > With the earliest DFL conventions less than six weeks away, it is time to > update our roster of races. This is not a complete list, but I know of > inter-party battles in at least four wards: > > Ward 2: Brian Hanninen versus Joan Campbell > Ward 9: Michael Guest versus Kathy Thurber. (Gary Schiff is also running, > but I'm not sure if he's seeking DFL or Green endorsement or both.) > Ward 10: Kress versus Niziolek > Ward 12: Craig Larson versus Sandy Colvin Roy > > Interparty races: > Ward 2: the Greens' Cam Gordon has announced > Ward 13: DFLer Greg Abbott will take on Independent Barret Lane > > Other wards I'm not fully up to speed on: > Ward 6: Barb Lickness...has anyone else announced? > Ward 3: Joe Biernat versus the newspaper ad > > Help me fill in the roster...if this list can't generate a complete list of > races, who can? > > David Brauer > King Field - Ward 10 > > > > > ___ > Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy > Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: > http://e-democracy.org/mpls --- Get your free web based email from Crosswalk.com: http://mail.crosswalk.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - Minnesota E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
