Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
W. Brandon Lacy Campos wrote: Further, I absolutely believe that there should not be any police officers who serve on the CIVILIAN Review council. I believe that the conflict of interest, or the code that many police seem to follow, would not allow for a police officer on the committee to offer an objective viewpoint. I highly doubt a prosecuting attorney would allow a police officer to sit on a jury where the defendant is a police officer, why then should the general public allow the same to happen in this process. I'd like to suggest that what we need is a citizens' advisory board, not a civilian review board. I think it's much better to be proactive, than reactive. A citizens' advisory board help keep the MPD in touch with what the community expects and is willing to accept as law enforcement. They could also review incidents as they occur. I also believe that it is important to include someone who is street wise and knowledgeable about police procedures, which is why I recommend that the board include a retired police officer. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Hi, all -- On 4/9/02 6:40 PM, Andy Driscoll wrote: ...The woman, who was walking calmly along and, obviously, suggested that these cops were out of line... I've seen similar postings on the list saying that the woman was acting in a non-threatening manner. Well... Not to excuse the actions of the officers involved, but... From the report _I_ saw on the news, the woman STARTED walking calmly along; but when she saw what was happening, she started to RUN TOWARD the officers, yelling, Hey! Waitaminute! (or some such); followed by what appeared to be a brief face-to-face discussion with an officer; ending with a 2-handed billy club shove, up-and-away, which left her on her back. -- John Goodman Central Neighborhood _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
I absolutely agree with Robin. Watch out...the gay, progressive, man of color is about to rant again...I'm sure some of our more thoughtful list-serve members will have something to say... Further, I absolutely believe that there should not be any police officers who serve on the CIVILIAN Review council. I believe that the conflict of interest, or the code that many police seem to follow, would not allow for a police officer on the committee to offer an objective viewpoint. I highly doubt a prosecuting attorney would allow a police officer to sit on a jury where the defendant is a police officer, why then should the general public allow the same to happen in this process. Civilian Review Boards are designed to keep the police accountable to the communities that they are sworn to serve and protect. When there is not a civilian review board with subpoena powers and other legal enforcement options, the police can (and have) felt free to keep doing business as usual. Look at the statistics surrounding the number of times police in this community (or any community) have been actually convicted of excessive force, brutality, etc. I know quite a few wonderful police officers. Officers that believe that their job is to serve and protect the community. But I have seen to many police officers that believe their job is to suppress the community, beat it down and force it to comply with the law as they see it. How many images do we have to see of police attacking non-violent protesters? How many more people need to be shot 10, 20, 30 or 40 times for picking up their wallet? Historically, police forces have been oppressive forces in Italy, Germany, the US, Mexico, Russia, etc. I believe the police can serve a vital function in our communities, but until the police are accountable to the communities that they are supposed to serve, I want to know who is going to protect the people from the police. -Brandon Lacy -Powderhorn Park 9-4 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Garwood, Robin Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:12 AM To: 'Mpls List' Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Walt Cygan wrote: It seems to me that if we are asking for a new Chief, and we want the MPD to change, we need to be able to articulate what we want them to change *to*. The answer to this question is, in my opinion, fairly simple. We must have a police department that views the use of violence as their last resort in any situation. Currently, the MPD approaches many situations seeing violence as either a foregone outcome or the ideal response. Walt then wrote: Some people have expressed a need for a civilian review authority with subpoena power and no police participation. Why would police have any respect for that process, if they felt it was simply a way to get back at them for perceived wrongs? If the new CRA has the power to examine police policies and change them, and the power to discipline officers, the MPD and all its employees will have to respect the process. Even if it's grudging, grumbling respect. I suppose this assumes that the officers in question would like to keep their jobs. Though I don't think the populace would be badly served if certain MPD officers were to find us impolite and decide they want to find employment elsewhere. A related but--in my opinion--more important question is this: how can the people of Minneapolis have any respect for the policing process when our police invariably approach us in a state of either fear or aggression, with one hand on the nightstick or the gun? I've asked this before in different ways, and I'll answer it myself. We can't. So we need to change the system. Call your Council Member. Robin Garwood Seward Elected Member, Minneapolis/5th District Green Party Steering Committee ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Michael Atherton wrote: Which precipitated the violence: the student celebration or the police response to it? Walt Cygan responded: But some students quoted in the Strib, PiPress and Daily clearly thought the crowd was out of hand. After talking to a number of people who were there, both celebrating (without violence) and not, about the best story I've been able to piece together is the following. It consists of some amount of guesswork on my part, since I've heard contradictory stories, but some things have been consistent, and that's what I'm stressing. When the Gophers won, a friend who works in Dinkytown's first reaction was to find someone to cover for him, and drive his car out of the area and get back to work ASAP. This was before any violence, but there were some in the crowd who were already saying let's start a riot. When things first got going, MPD initially sent very few officers to deal with the people who were blocking traffic. It sounds like there were too few officers to control or defuse the situation immediately. These officers (and the next ones to respond) blocked 4th St SE with their patrol vehicles. The crowd was growing, but things were not violent yet. Traffic had been blocked by the crowd before the MPD, but the crowd were far less efficient at shutting down traffic. Also remember that Dinkytown is a choke-point for traffic. University Ave and 4th St SE are main throughfares, and there aren't a lot of ways go around Dinkytown, especially if the intersection at 15th and 4th is closed. A bit later, someone in the crowd threw a beer bottle either at an officer or at a squad car. This began the pepper-spray and baton wielding as the MPD attempted to disperse the crowd. At some point (before about 11pm), the crowd heard that some of the hockey players were coming to the Library Bar Grill, and the place filled up rapidly. As the MPD tried to clear the intersection at 13th Ave 4th St. SE, many in the crowd took refuge within the Library, including some who'd been hit with pepper spray (or possibly tear gas). There was also some gas coming in through the patio doors on the 4th St side of the bar, and very soon it became bad enough in the bar that people wanted to get back outside, but both the MPD and the crowd were still there. At various points in the evening, the crowd would disperse from Dinkytown into the neighborhood. Trash cans were being overturned and a couple windows were broken (Magus Books, EastBank and the Gopher Motel are the three businesses that I've heard had windows broken). After a while the crowd would reform in Dinkytown, confronting the cops again. Bar closing (1am) produced a bigger crowd, as everyone who was in the bars got added to the mix. Some were trying to cross 4th St University to get to campus, and were prevented from doing so by the MPD. So they milled about. Others wanted to see what was happening. A few wanted to stir things up. Basically this back and forth between the crowd and police kept going until between 3 and 5AM, depending on the location. Each time the crowd would reform, someone would get sprayed, thumped, arrested, or all three. So what went wrong? I think the MPD had too few officers ready to deal with the situation initially. For whatever reason, they were caught unprepared. There were elements in the crowd who wanted to turn things into a riot, but they were a minority. When folks were trapped in Dinkytown, things got worse. When the crowd would be dispersed, it would re-form. There's a pretty clear anti-MPD feeling present. It was also a relatively nice night and there were the normal groups of people drinking in Dinkytown. Many were curious and it created a gawker-slowdown of sorts. When the bars let out, that's more people dumped out into the situation, many of whom were not using their best judgement at that point. The short summary that most people seem to agree with is The crowd started it, and the police made it worse. The only disagreement I've gotten is a few who aren't sure who started the violence, and one who's not sure what else the police could have done, given the desire for violence on the part of some of the crowd. Dave Polaschek Marcy-Holmes ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Nothing to add to this thread, except for positive reinforcement to Dave Polaschek for his reporting. It's great to see the list used by citizen-correspondents to try to ferret out facts, irrespective of a point of view. Points of view are great, too, of course - our stock in trade - but I find reports like Dave's help me understand better what might have happened, and that's a cool thing. David Brauer King Field - Ward 10 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Atherton wrote: Which precipitated the violence: the student celebration or the police response to it? Walt Cygan responded: But some students quoted in the Strib, PiPress and Daily clearly thought the crowd was out of hand. After talking to a number of people who were there, both celebrating (without violence) and not, about the best story I've been able to piece together is the following. It consists of some amount of guesswork on my part, since I've heard contradictory stories, but some things have been consistent, and that's what I'm stressing. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
I agree. Information begets rationality. I'm second to none as most people can discern here, in my criticism of the police culture, but that doesn't excuse the idiocy of turning any celebration into an excuse for vandalism and terror. But therein lies a lesson: 1. Drunken children are going to behave like the idiots drugs and alcohol make them; 2. Troublemaking minorities of large crowds can make the entire crowd seem out of control; 3. The reputation of the Minneapolis Police Department precedes its intervention in celebratory gatherings that react to such cops well before the first spray of pepper; and, finally, 4. The Minneapolis Police Department, still wallowing in its paranoiac culture, behave at least as much like the children they're dealing with as the children they're dealing with and, instead of behaving more like the parents they should be in cases like this, they engage in behavior that is the reverse of that which we would consider exemplary of adults. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all grow up? Andy I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of the country. --- Thomas Jefferson,1816 From: David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:21:42 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Nothing to add to this thread, except for positive reinforcement to Dave Polaschek for his reporting. It's great to see the list used by citizen-correspondents to try to ferret out facts, irrespective of a point of view. Points of view are great, too, of course - our stock in trade - but I find reports like Dave's help me understand better what might have happened, and that's a cool thing. David Brauer King Field - Ward 10 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Atherton wrote: Which precipitated the violence: the student celebration or the police response to it? Walt Cygan responded: But some students quoted in the Strib, PiPress and Daily clearly thought the crowd was out of hand. After talking to a number of people who were there, both celebrating (without violence) and not, about the best story I've been able to piece together is the following. It consists of some amount of guesswork on my part, since I've heard contradictory stories, but some things have been consistent, and that's what I'm stressing. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson! -- I saw the same footage (and more) and I have to agree with Michael. In my opinion, the police force in Minneapolis is totally out of hand. Replace Robert Olson NOW! MJ Mueller Seward ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
1. I watched a lot of TV coverage of the riot on the U of M campus. I never saw an officer strike any one with their riot batons. This charge has been made several times on this list and, if true, it would seem to me that this footage would have gotten a lot of air play. 2. I am a Paramedic at HCMC. We did not transport any injured victims of the brutality allegedly meted out by the police. I have not heard of, or seen, any injuries that were any more than minor contusions and abrasions. 3. I have worked around police for over 30 years. I have helped subdue and restrain countless members of the public who are a danger to themselves and/or others. It is not a pretty process; but then it isn't supposed to be. It is, however, effective and done in a manner that minimizes the risk to the officer, the public, the patient, and the drunk knuckle head. 4. The response by those on this list to the actions of public safety officials have shown me that many of you will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect you, your family and your property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city council members. There has been talk among Mpls DFLers that they may have to approach and work with suburban Republicans in order to protect their political turf. Be forewarned - Postings that appear regularly on this list will curl the toe nails of the suburban home owner. And that is where the new political power lies. Duke Powell Burnsville - Original Message - From: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson! -- I saw the same footage (and more) and I have to agree with Michael. In my opinion, the police force in Minneapolis is totally out of hand. Replace Robert Olson NOW! MJ Mueller Seward ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls - Original Message - From: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson! -- I saw the same footage (and more) and I have to agree
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Hi, all -- On 4/9/02 4:25 PM, Duke Powell wrote: 1. I watched a lot of TV coverage of the riot on the U of M campus. I never saw an officer strike any one with their riot batons. This charge has been made several times on this list and, if true, it would seem to me that this footage would have gotten a lot of air play. Hm. You must not have seen the same footage I've seen, then. 2. I am a Paramedic at HCMC. We did not transport any injured victims of the brutality allegedly meted out by the police. I have not heard of, or seen, any injuries that were any more than minor contusions and abrasions. Is HCMC the only place rioters (and alleged rioters) were treated? (Just because _you_ didn't see substantial injuries doesn't mean they didn't happen.) 3. I have worked around police for over 30 years. I have helped subdue and restrain countless members of the public who are a danger to themselves and/or others. It is not a pretty process; but then it isn't supposed to be. It is, however, effective and done in a manner that minimizes the risk to the officer, the public, the patient, and the drunk knuckle head. You sound very rational; Good to know you're out there, fighting the good fight. 4. The response by those on this list to the actions of public safety officials have shown me that many of you will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect you, your family and your property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city council members. The squeaky wheel... theory in action; bear in mind, if one doesn't like the way their government is run, one has the ability/right to use this -- or any other -- forum to make their views known in order to effect change. Questioning authority is not a crime; in fact, it's a responsibility; Not sure why you're frightened by the concept of concerned citizens making their viewpoints known to the people in charge. There has been talk among Mpls DFLers that they may have to approach and work with suburban Republicans in order to protect their political turf. Be forewarned - Postings that appear regularly on this list will curl the toe nails of the suburban home owner. Are you saying that this list has a predominant slant to it? I suspect a careful tally of postings would suggest otherwise. (Have any tallies of the membership's political leanings ever been taken, Mr. Brauer...?) -- John Goodman Central Neighborhood _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Mr. Powell, I don't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities, but I am not Minnesota Nice. Please listen closely so I don't have to say this again. 1. Just because you did not personally see it does not mean it did not happen. My son happened to be in the area, and stayed a respectful distance away and observed the fray. My son, a 20 year old African-American young man, neither smokes, does drugs or drinks. He is very respectful, does not LIE and is the kind of son that makes a mother proud. His eyewitness account is consistent with the violence stated consistently on this list. I don't even have to choose whom to believe. My son, without question. 2. Just because one is sworn to protect our life and proerty does not mean they do that. It is not like police officers are doing VOLUNTEER work, they are PAID! If they cannot do the job in a manner that does not cause unneccessary pain and/or DEATH to those that they have sworn to serve and protect, they should be FIRED I do not believe that the people on this list are all just making this up to make the MPD look bad. This type of behavior exhibited by the police is, unfortunately, a Minneapolis reality. 3. Even if you only saw minor cuts, abrasions and contusions, my question is this: Was it really necessary to see ANY? Did the violence have to take place at all? 4. IMHO what the good people of Minneapolis want to see happen is that the LEADER of a MPF GANG (and, yes, I am calling Chief Olson just that, and that is being respectful) be dealt with just like any other so-called menace to society. There needs to be some serious reform. And note, I said A GANG. I don't believe that the entire MPF is corrupt, but their is a portion that is. They roam the streets, congregate in public places and harass and harm innocent people. And they don't just carry a gun, they carry a gun and a BADGE! Try to tell me that that isn't scary to neighborhood residents! Pamela Taylor (A Minneapolis Mom in Tampa) --- DUKE POWELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. I watched a lot of TV coverage of the riot on the U of M campus. I never saw an officer strike any one with their riot batons. This charge has been made several times on this list and, if true, it would seem to me that this footage would have gotten a lot of air play. 2. I am a Paramedic at HCMC. We did not transport any injured victims of the brutality allegedly meted out by the police. I have not heard of, or seen, any injuries that were any more than minor contusions and abrasions. 3. I have worked around police for over 30 years. I have helped subdue and restrain countless members of the public who are a danger to themselves and/or others. It is not a pretty process; but then it isn't supposed to be. It is, however, effective and done in a manner that minimizes the risk to the officer, the public, the patient, and the drunk knuckle head. 4. The response by those on this list to the actions of public safety officials have shown me that many of you will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect you, your family and your property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city council members. There has been talk among Mpls DFLers that they may have to approach and work with suburban Republicans in order to protect their political turf. Be forewarned - Postings that appear regularly on this list will curl the toe nails of the suburban home owner. And that is where the new political power lies. Duke Powell Burnsville - Original Message - From: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson
RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
John Goodman asks: Are you saying that this list has a predominant slant to it? I suspect a careful tally of postings would suggest otherwise. (Have any tallies of the membership's political leanings ever been taken, Mr. Brauer...?) The only tally available is from list posts...we don't collect that info from members. As with the Barb-Johnson-versus-the-List in the DQ debate, neither side knows public opinion so it's all a lot of shouting. I think it's quite fair to say that the vast majority of posts (which can be much different than the sentiments of members, were they to be known) are pretty upset with the cops. Do members of the public feel the same way? I suspect - no proof - that city residents would be less universal in their condemnation. But maybe not. To me, the fun of a discussion is not keeping score, it's the strength of facts in an argument, something a little more in our control. By the way, I noticed in the PiPress this morning that five Minneapolis police officers were injured in the U goings-on. Does anyone know how serious the injuries were, and the specific cause? David Brauer List manager ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Tuesday 09 April 2002 09:25 pm, DUKE POWELL wrote:
1. I watched a lot of TV coverage of the riot on the U of M campus. I
I don't watch television much, so I can only rely on past experience and
the reports of citizens. From what I understand the most significant
complaints were not of the type for which one is hospitalized. However,
spraying the eyes of already subdued persons is something I have seen
first-hand the police do. I have also seen them spray chemicals in the
eyes of persons who were not acting in a threatening manner. I have no
reason to doubt that this sort of physical abuse was common during the
hockey riot.
themselves and/or others. It is not a pretty process; but then it isn't
supposed to be. It is, however, effective and done in a manner that
minimizes the risk to the officer, the public, the patient, and the
drunk knuckle head.
Is shooting someone point blank 15 times a reduction in the risk to the
knuckle head? Is a group of bikers such a danger to society that they
must be tackled and brutalized? Are members of the press, attempting to
monitor an out-of-control situation a threat to order, such that they
should be put in pain and have the tools of their trade damaged or stolen?
If the police would stick to beating up on drunk hockey fans, you'd hear
not one peep out of me.
property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you
all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city
council members.
Yes, the reason for that is that we, the citizens of Minneapolis, voted for
those people to hold those jobs. They work for us. The Minneapolis police
work for us. They are therefore accountable to us.
- -michael libby (Cleveland/North Mpls)
__Michael_C_Libby__{_x_(at)_ichimunki_(dot)_com_}__
| my website: http://www.ichimunki.com/ |
| public key at http://www.ichimunki.com/public.key |
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Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
POWELL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:25:35 -0500 To: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage 1. I watched a lot of TV coverage of the riot on the U of M campus. I never saw an officer strike any one with their riot batons. This charge has been made several times on this list and, if true, it would seem to me that this footage would have gotten a lot of air play. 2. I am a Paramedic at HCMC. We did not transport any injured victims of the brutality allegedly meted out by the police. I have not heard of, or seen, any injuries that were any more than minor contusions and abrasions. 3. I have worked around police for over 30 years. I have helped subdue and restrain countless members of the public who are a danger to themselves and/or others. It is not a pretty process; but then it isn't supposed to be. It is, however, effective and done in a manner that minimizes the risk to the officer, the public, the patient, and the drunk knuckle head. 4. The response by those on this list to the actions of public safety officials have shown me that many of you will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect you, your family and your property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city council members. There has been talk among Mpls DFLers that they may have to approach and work with suburban Republicans in order to protect their political turf. Be forewarned - Postings that appear regularly on this list will curl the toe nails of the suburban home owner. And that is where the new political power lies. Duke Powell Burnsville - Original Message - From: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson! -- I saw the same footage (and more) and I have to agree with Michael. In my opinion, the police force in Minneapolis is totally out of hand. Replace Robert Olson NOW! MJ Mueller Seward ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls - Original Message - From: MJ Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Michael Hohmann wrote: I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- Idon't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
DUKE POWELL wrote: 4. The response by those on this list to the actions of public safety officials have shown me that many of you will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect you, your family and your property from those who wish you ill. The scary thing to me is that you all seem to have the ear of the mayor and a significant number of city council members. Will go to any length to berate and degrade those who are sworn to protect... Hmmm... well that's not me, but I will tell you this: These latest actions by the MPS do not represent the cutting edge of creative community orientated law enforcement; it's more of a through back to the confrontational policing of the 60s and 70s. Here is my question: Which precipitated the violence: the student celebration or the police response to it? In L.A. I've seen many minor incidents blow up because law enforcement was not willing to take minor infarctions in stride. I can think of a number of ways in which both the Critical Mass and the championship cerebration could have been handled more effectively. This is, I think, a management problem; and for the mayor a PR problem. So, how many more incidents will it take for the MPD to become a political liability in the next election? Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Michael Atherton wrote: Which precipitated the violence: the student celebration or the police response to it? Based on the conclusion-jumping that this list has embraced, you would imagine that the police were completely responsible. But most of the print media articles that I have read were much less certain. One clearly pointed to bottle throwing by the party-ers. I read other accounts that credited over-reaction by the cops to harmless fun. But some students quoted in the Strib, PiPress and Daily clearly thought the crowd was out of hand. There was also some pretty good TV video of damage being done at the U by the revelers, in addition to the police brutality footage that has been the focus of the discussion here. To put my cards on the table: I think Chief Olson is a liability right now, and needs to go. I think in the recent incidents involving the cops, they is plenty of blame to be laid at the feet of the police actions. But others involved have not exactly been blameless, particularly in the hockey crowd. That said, maybe I'd enjoy this discussion more and have a better feeling about it if it were of a more constructive nature. For example, concerning the hockey get-together, what would be the ideal for how such a scenario should be handled? No police in sight? Police present but not in riot gear? Riot gear present, but in trunks for that eventuality? Once reports of vandalism were received and once bottles were thrown, what would the appropriate response be? It seems to me that if we are asking for a new Chief, and we want the MPD to change, we need to be able to articulate what we want them to change *to*. And not just to always be thoughtful and kind and considerate. What are the expectations for their responses when things get ugly, as they sometimes do? Some people have expressed a need for a civilian review authority with subpoena power and no police participation. Why would police have any respect for that process, if they felt it was simply a way to get back at them for perceived wrongs? Someone may not care how the police feel, but it seems to me that a respectful MPD will only come about with a reasonably respectful populace. Showing respect doesn't imply giving up rights or knuckling under to police authority. To police, it shouldn't mean looking the other way at street crime. It does mean that the interaction between all people should be based on civil dialogue and a degree of empathy, which neither police, nor police critics are showing these days. Walt Cygan Keewaydin ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
I talked to an old friend today that was hanging out on 15th and 4th not too long (an hour or two) after the game was over. His take on it was that there was a crowd there and they were rowdy, but not out of hand and not blocking traffic. He says that at that time, without warning, the police started sparying pepper spray at the crowd. He doesn't know what was happening nearby that may have precipitated such action and is willing to admit that there may have been things happening that he didn't say. However, according to what Robert Olson is saying, the police didn't make any moves on the crowd until 3 AM (many hours later). The question remains. Did the crowd provoke the police or did the police provoke the crowd? Jim McGuire Como ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
Chief Olson made the call to disperse crowds after 3 a.m. when monstrous bonfire started getting bigger. But Minnesota Daily editor claims staffers were maced for taking pictures and notes...just doing their job. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/2216221.html David Brauer List manager ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage
A friend recently suggested in jest (I think), Some of us just never learn, do we? Maybe she's right! I just watched film footage of Dinkytown 'riots' on Ch 11 10 p.m. news-- two officers on top of one unarmed man beating him with sticks and fists as he was under them on the ground-- I don't know what he did. A seemingly well-dressed women in a full length coat walks up on the sidewalk to calmly address the officers... no voices audible-- maybe a what are you doing? I think he's subdued!... and she was aggressively knocked backward, off her feet, in the air, and to the ground. It was disgusting aggravated assault against that woman-- by the police! I'm not condoning the illegal actions of rioting students, but I'm condemning the wonted, persistently excessive violence doled out by those we pay to 'protect and serve.' This type of violence only begets more violence-- an escalation which we do not need. It doesn't take long for people to realize you don't face the MPD with bare hands and machetes. I think it's time we end this forceful-assault mentality; it's time for a change at the top! Replace Robert Olson! Michael Hohmann Linden Hills -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of List Manager Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:24 PM To: Mpls list Subject: [Mpls] More Dinkytown coverage Chief Olson made the call to disperse crowds after 3 a.m. when monstrous bonfire started getting bigger. But Minnesota Daily editor claims staffers were maced for taking pictures and notes...just doing their job. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/2216221.html David Brauer List manager ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
