RE: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area
I figured that, since you'd done the checkouts I would just make a copy of your set (in case you started working on it) and then download them to my computer from orc...@people.apache.org. The copy was quick. The download was very time consuming, though I did not have to pay attention to it while I was working on other things. It seems that transferring 28,000 files one at a time in a 1.21 GB FTP transfer can be pretty slow. Now that's done, I can go to sleep (it is just midnight here). That was a great idea. If you grab any more, let us know. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:16 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area On 09/03/2011 09:49 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: Thanks for doing that, Kay. It never hurts to have a backup, or two or three or ... [;). Well mostly I did this because I wanted to use them for my little project. However, I can do the other areas (Accepted and Incubator) as well. No problem. -Original Message- From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 13:38 To: OOo Apache Subject: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area Just an FYI (and I hope this doesn't fly in the face of proper usage for my apache account), I just did a simple svn checkout on ALL the native-lang web sites this am to /home/kschenk/OOoNLProjects into respective directories corresponding the site abbreviations listed in https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/OpenOffice+Domains We haven't really thoroughly discussed what we want to do with them, but I thought I could do this and play around with the html to MediaWiki markup utilities when the new MW is ready for customers. Plus, I'm getting rather paranoid about the recent DNS problems, and thought I should go on salvage mission. -- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo
Re: OpenOffice most annoying bugs
Am 09/03/2011 02:29 PM, schrieb Pedro F. Giffuni: --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: Is it worth contacting the authors of these dictionaries to see if they would consider giving it a license we can use? Simply +1. No need to vote.. just do it (TM). Of course I'm not voting. It's just an indication that I have the same opinion. Marcus
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Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
BTW: IMHO there was a similar discussion if and how to integrate the Catalan language variante spoken in Valencian beside the normal Catalan one. At the end we have enabled and integrated translation for Valencian - also because there was a strong support to do all the work - as you can see here: http://download.openoffice.org/other.html Marcus Am 09/04/2011 12:23 AM, schrieb Rob Weir: OK. Before someone starts saying nasty things about Garibaldi, it would be good to state some things I hope we all agree on: 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here. 2) OpenOffice.org has a rich history of offering support for many languages, many more than commercial office suites do. This is something we take pride in. This includes many minority languages, and even artificial languages like Esperanto. 3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new language, we should point them to information on how to do this. We don't need to volunteer to do the translation, or use the translation, or even agree on the status of the language. But we should help someone understand how to do this. Remember, this might help lead to a future volunteer for the standard Italian translation as well. Thanks! -Rob On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Dale Erwind...@casaerwin.org wrote: On 9/2/2011 10:23 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: Hi Dale; With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so much admire being italian myself but not only because of that), Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for good reasons. Compared to standard italian you use the same character set and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian. My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan terms to the standard italian dictionary. best regards, Pedro, Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due respect. Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot... I said you speak like one. Maybe you are just misinformed. I agree that Neapolitan is a dialect because by definition a dialect is a LANGUAGE which is not the principal language of the country in which it is spoken and it is relegated to a particular region of that country. But it IS a language and is recognized as such by Wikipedia and by the Italian Province of Catania and has a rich literary presence spanning several centuries. For a brief time, from 1442 to 1458, Neapolitan was the official language of the Kingdom of Naples. It was supplanted by the Tuscan of Dante and Boccaccio which by 1500 had become the accepted literary language of Italy and generally referred to as Italian, but there was no official language called Italian until the unification of Italy. Although the official date of the unification is 1849, the Kingdom of Naples did not become part of the Kingdom of Italy until 1861. At that time Naples was possibly the richest city in the world and it was at this point that 80 million ducats were removed from the Bank of Naples and moved to the Bank of Italy causing the collapse of the entire southern Italian economy. It also gave rise to a bigotry in northern Italy which empowered them to deride the southern Italians because of their poverty (which they, the northerners, had caused). For this reason, it became unfashionable to speak Neapolitan. They call it the unification of Italy. I call it the rape of Naples. As for having the same character set as Italian, so does French, Spanish, Portughese, Rumanian and English. Are they also dialects? Of course not. And Neapolitan has its own grammar, too. There may be some similarities to Italian grammar, just as there are in French, Spanish, Portughese and any other Romance language. Here are but a few Neapolitan Grammar books: GRAMMATICA DEL DIALETTO NAPOLETANO compilata dal Dottor Raffaele Capozzoli; Luigi Chiurazzi Editore, 1889 'A LENGUA 'E PULECENELLA - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA Carlo Iandolo; Franco di Mauro Editore, 1994 IL NAPOLETANO PARLATO E SCRITTO Con Note di grammatica storica Nicola De Blasi - Luigi Imperatore; Libreria Dante Descartes, 2000 FACILE FACILE - Impariama la lingua napoletana - Grammatica Colomba Rosaria Andolfi; Kairos Edizioni - Napoli, 2008 MODERN NEAPOLITAN GRAMMAR - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA ODIERNA D. Erwin - M. T. Fedele Lulu Press, 2011 -- Dale Erwin Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU http://leather.casaerwin.org === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.26, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18240) http://www.pctools.com/ ===
Introduction
Hi, I'd like to introduce myself: My name is Joost Andrae and I live in Hamburg, Germany. I was working on StarOffice/OpenOffice.org full time since I joined StarDivision as QA engineer in 1995. This was the time when StarOffice development started. Since several years I'm working as program manager to coordinate development efforts, to do some presales negotiations, to be contact for partners and doing a lot of other things. Besides I've been involved as QA engineer into agile development (SCRUM) of a web application. My main field of activity was the Calc spreadsheet application, the Math formula editor and the Chart application. Furthermore I was involved into QA/testing of all client server and web based StarOffice development as well as into server based products like the document converter application and the SDK. The crash reporting functionality was also one of my babies which I tested, QA'ed and administered. At the time I mainly worked as QA engineer I also tested font and printing technology used within SO/OOo as well as I did performance and memory tuning measurements of the application. I'm involved into QA (as QA Co-lead), l10n (coordinating QA) and i18n (RTL, CTL) efforts as well as I cared about the download infrastructure (mirror network and Bouncer/MirrorBrain), the download pages and releases of the en-US versions. I join as an individual, not as an Oracle employee. This and all future posts from me do not reflect any company opinion that I am affiliated with. These posts reflect my private opinion only. Kind regards, Joost
Re: Introduction
Hi, Joost, On 9/4/2011 07:04, Joost Andrae wrote: Hi, I'd like to introduce myself: My name is Joost Andrae and I live in Hamburg, Germany. I was working on StarOffice/OpenOffice.org full time since I joined StarDivision as QA engineer in 1995. This was the time when StarOffice development started. Since several years I'm working as program manager to coordinate development efforts, to do some presales negotiations, to be contact for partners and doing a lot of other things. Besides I've been involved as QA engineer into agile development (SCRUM) of a web application. My main field of activity was the Calc spreadsheet application, the Math formula editor and the Chart application. Furthermore I was involved into QA/testing of all client server and web based StarOffice development as well as into server based products like the document converter application and the SDK. The crash reporting functionality was also one of my babies which I tested, QA'ed and administered. At the time I mainly worked as QA engineer I also tested font and printing technology used within SO/OOo as well as I did performance and memory tuning measurements of the application. I'm involved into QA (as QA Co-lead), l10n (coordinating QA) and i18n (RTL, CTL) efforts as well as I cared about the download infrastructure (mirror network and Bouncer/MirrorBrain), the download pages and releases of the en-US versions. I join as an individual, not as an Oracle employee. This and all future posts from me do not reflect any company opinion that I am affiliated with. These posts reflect my private opinion only. Kind regards, Joost By a remarkable coincidence, I just added a line to the Site-QA plan[1] about the crash-reporting facility. If you want to jump right in, you could add some useful details there, about where the receiving facility is hosted, and who controls it. We (AOOo) have to plan on re-hosting it. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Site-QA-Plan -- /tj/
Re: Introduction
Welcome on board. Great to see you here. :-) Marcus Am 09/04/2011 01:04 PM, schrieb Joost Andrae: Hi, I'd like to introduce myself: My name is Joost Andrae and I live in Hamburg, Germany. I was working on StarOffice/OpenOffice.org full time since I joined StarDivision as QA engineer in 1995. This was the time when StarOffice development started. Since several years I'm working as program manager to coordinate development efforts, to do some presales negotiations, to be contact for partners and doing a lot of other things. Besides I've been involved as QA engineer into agile development (SCRUM) of a web application. My main field of activity was the Calc spreadsheet application, the Math formula editor and the Chart application. Furthermore I was involved into QA/testing of all client server and web based StarOffice development as well as into server based products like the document converter application and the SDK. The crash reporting functionality was also one of my babies which I tested, QA'ed and administered. At the time I mainly worked as QA engineer I also tested font and printing technology used within SO/OOo as well as I did performance and memory tuning measurements of the application. I'm involved into QA (as QA Co-lead), l10n (coordinating QA) and i18n (RTL, CTL) efforts as well as I cared about the download infrastructure (mirror network and Bouncer/MirrorBrain), the download pages and releases of the en-US versions. I join as an individual, not as an Oracle employee. This and all future posts from me do not reflect any company opinion that I am affiliated with. These posts reflect my private opinion only. Kind regards, Joost
Re: Introduction
Hi TJ, I'm not sure if the backend infrastructure of the crash reporter can be hosted outside a trusted network and it's fairly complex as it contains debugging systems for all platforms available, as well as a big database which is tied to the Hamburg build infrastructure and it stores terabytes of debug information of mostly all builds done in Hamburg. The backend logic afaik is not opensourced. If there is a deep interest into this then someone at Apache needs to negotiate this with people involved. Most information about the communication (XML file format and Soap communication) from OOo to the backend can be read here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/CrashReporting By a remarkable coincidence, I just added a line to the Site-QA plan[1] about the crash-reporting facility. If you want to jump right in, you could add some useful details there, about where the receiving facility is hosted, and who controls it. We (AOOo) have to plan on re-hosting it. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Site-QA-Plan Kind regards, Joost
Re: Introduction
On 9/4/2011 07:56, Joost Andrae wrote: Hi TJ, I'm not sure if the backend infrastructure of the crash reporter can be hosted outside a trusted network and it's fairly complex as it contains debugging systems for all platforms available, as well as a big database which is tied to the Hamburg build infrastructure and it stores terabytes of debug information of mostly all builds done in Hamburg. The backend logic afaik is not opensourced. If there is a deep interest into this then someone at Apache needs to negotiate this with people involved. Most information about the communication (XML file format and Soap communication) from OOo to the backend can be read here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/CrashReporting By a remarkable coincidence, I just added a line to the Site-QA plan[1] about the crash-reporting facility. If you want to jump right in, you could add some useful details there, about where the receiving facility is hosted, and who controls it. We (AOOo) have to plan on re-hosting it. [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Site-QA-Plan Kind regards, Joost Thank you very much for the info: it's exactly what somebody is going to need to know. I have quoted it on the wiki, so it doesn't get lost. Not being a developer here (ASF or OOo), I'm just trying to make sure that stuff doesn't fall through the cracks. -- /tj/ I'm a bit out of date as a developer; what assembly language is all this stuff in? I know a lot of them: RCA 501, 301; IBM 7090, 1401, 360; CDC 6000; even 8080 and 6502. Those desktop dinky-toys are cute, but they'll never amount to anything. ;-)
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Hi Rob, As a Hu forum admin and not a native English speaker lot of time raised the forum question from beginning. I dissatisfied with your ignorant behavior to forums, you not want to make any steps to understand our questions. Not registered into forums, and not see into the discussions. Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you not makes any steps into the other directions? Regards, Zoltan The forums works differently what Apache works, and you can understand 2011.09.04. 16:15 keltezéssel, Rob Weir írta: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust and unapologetic response. I don't want to rehash this again, but this tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache and hand over. What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision to hand over and stand down. I don't see anything recent from you on the forums. Can you send a link to your note and the responses? It is much better to get first hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone else. In essence my concerns and fears seem to be shared by most of the NL admins, moderators and volunteers that staff the forums and do over 90% of the work to respond to end users. Until this last week my views were probably at the more positive end of the spectrum. If this happens then we aren't going to be left with any functioning forums, so I am starting to consider quite seriously why I am continuing to do this work at all. I would encourage the NL admins to be as vocal as you are, and to raise their issues directly on ooo-dev. It will be very hard for them to acclimate to Apache, and for us to understand their concerns, if they do not participate directly on the project's primary discussion list. I'm grateful, of course, for any attempts to collect and consolidate feedback and bring it to this list, but that is an inadequate substitute for an authentic two-way conversion. The following pieces of advice you've offered us are all good topics for discussion. What can we do to get the admins to come over and discuss these items? Note that discussing these points a private forum would go against the need for overall transparency. So the admins need to meet us half-way here. -Rob Please consider taking active steps: * To realise that these people spend all of their pro-bono time working in the forum model and generally hate using email for anything other than 1-1 communication. We need to have a mutually efficient way of working together. * To understand that the forums are a well oiled machine that are administered tightly and efficiently and have been for years. Please understand how the system works and what its strengths and weakness are, before demanding changes. * Please don't demand, but provide rational explanations for the need to change and use sensible change management to change working policies and practices. * Reach out and consider how to work with people for whom English is a second language, who find it hard work to read a simple and well formatted document or post and who just cannot follow complex email threads that are a dozen levels deep and get completely mangled by some respondents: o Keep thread simple and maintain thread discipline o Try to give direct answers to direct questions o All participants configure their email clients to use text/plain; format=flowed encoding, as text/plain only can completely mangle nesting of reply content. Of course the PPMC doesn't have to do any of this, but also please accept my parting advice that if you don't then you are effectively and knowingly killing the forums off. At some point these people will have decide whether to stay and tough it out; to leave one-by-one; or to take this service elsewhere. Regards Terry Ellison On 01/09/11 23:02, Terry Ellison wrote: Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel that I am caught between a rock and a hard place. My work is time consuming and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer, but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. In some ways you need to be an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise. I am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. Again this only my personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few individuals.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 04/09/11 15:15, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust and unapologetic response. I don't want to rehash this again, but this tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache and hand over. What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision to hand over and stand down. I don't see anything recent from you on the forums. Can you send a link to your note and the responses? It is much better to get first hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone else. We tend not to wash our dirty linen in public so these discussions go on on the closed forums. That's one of the reasons why I recommended that PPMC members should request Community Volunteer status to have such access. Of course quite a few DL members and some PPMC members already have Community Volunteer status. I don't know if you've noticed, but they've gone rather quiet of late. //T
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
Rob Weir wrote: 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here. Ultimately what matters to us is whether ISO assigned a code to the language or not, so a technical issue; as I wrote earlier, it did in ISO 639-2 (Neapolitan = nap); and this is all that matters to us. I definitely agree people should not debate non-technical issues on this list. 3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new language, we should point them to information on how to do this. Sure. I did this in my earlier message, but I've now found the exact links and I'm posting them here so that Dale can generate the locale data and take the first step: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/How_to_submit_new_Locale_Data http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Adding_a_new_language_or_locale (wiki is in the process of being migrated, but these pages are still available). I investigated the locale creation and apparently in the Locale Generator Dale will have to choose Napoletano-Calabrese (it's their hard-coded definition, again for technical reasons). Then Dale will be stuck at the issue creation phase, since BugZilla is being migrated too. This is why I wrote that it's probably best to contact Eike Rathke directly, since these issues used to be assigned to him. I've taken the liberty to CC him explicitly, sorry Eike if you preferred otherwise. And good luck with bringing a new language to OpenOffice.org! Regards, Andrea.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 15:15, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust and unapologetic response. I don't want to rehash this again, but this tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache and hand over. What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision to hand over and stand down. I don't see anything recent from you on the forums. Can you send a link to your note and the responses? It is much better to get first hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone else. We tend not to wash our dirty linen in public so these discussions go on on the closed forums. That's one of the reasons why I recommended that PPMC members should request Community Volunteer status to have such access. Of course quite a few DL members and some PPMC members already have Community Volunteer status. I don't know if you've noticed, but they've gone rather quiet of late. //T I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. -Rob
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
If behavior discussions are going to occur at all, it's probably better that they happen in public rather than there be the feeling of a secret faceless committee to which users can neither respond nor appeal. The latter can lead to discontent. Exactly. And where do users go to complain about moderators? ooo-dev@ ;-) ooo-private@ I had one person contact me off list, not about the support forum moderation specifically, but about moderation in another part of OOo. He had concerns about heavy-handiness in moderation, of unpopular views being booted. This is not a matter of private discussion on users behavior or not. We shouldn't hide our heads in the sand and pretend that everything at OOo was perfect and that everyone got along, and everyone was happy. This is not true. There were power centers within the project, there was abuse and there was discontent. LibreOffice didn't just happen on a whim. I think a jolt of transparency will do us much good. We need to learn to collaborate well with each other openly. We need to be moderate in moderation. If we think we need 30 private moderation forums and 30 moderators in order to do user support, then that is a warning sign crying out that we're doing the wrong thing. I think 30 are really to much. But one might be OK. One question: how much moderation is actually happening? And why? Is it really users behavior? In fact I can't imagine 30 boards are necessary for only keeping trolls out. If possible, some stats would be fine to have a better understanding of the issue. Like I asked before, if we had zero private moderator forums, what bad thing would happen? Why can we replace secret tribunals with open, peer pressure and leadership by example? Really, is the situation so worse that secret tribunals is a matching term? (I really don't know, its not a rethoric question). I am all for openess don't get me wrong. The other mail today from Terry showed me there something strange going on. People simply want to use the tools they have used before. They want to speak their language. I think this should be possible. Reducing the tribunal factor to a minimum is a very good thing. I just don't want to read of some moderators discussing my grandmoms behavior in public. -Rob Don -- http://www.grobmeier.de
Re: OpenOffice most annoying bugs
--- On Sun, 9/4/11, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: ... Example 1: - A posting in LO mailinglist from Sept 2010 says: Creating a 'bug' saw no action in 3 years Here is hoping that posting the patch to this new project will :-) (There goes one developer that will probably think it twice before submitting new patches here) Sorry, clearly not a stopper for me. It doesn't fix a bug but introduce a new feature. This shouldn't be a stopper candidate. Nahh.. you haven't been doing your homework: that issue was indeed a bug and the issue has been fixed now. I was highlighting the effect of ignoring bugs for too long though: it has an influence on the community as such. Example 2: Bug 7065 (Which Marcus considers not to be a showstopper) says in 2003: I think it is a mistake to future this bug. Page numbering is a very important function of all worprocessing software and its discoverability must at least be increased. When an issue is open und unsolved since 2003 then it is sad. No doubt. However, it's still not an issue that should suddenly stop a release. And after that there are 13 issues closed as duplicates to this same bug. Yes, someone has to review the patches, and the applied fixes won't necessarily match the submitted diffs or what LibreOffice committed but we do have a good starting point to fix these issues and the wider community has seen a value in fixing them so I do think they have a higher priority. Yes and no. It doesn't depend from where the issue or patch comes or how old it is. It's about the issue itself, what part of the application it covers and its severity. Which is all subjective and basically translates to whatever a random developer feels he should be working on today. Come on.. let's admit: bug fixing never follows a coordinated, well developed, plan to improve our product, at least not in a volunteer project. What I am saying here is that setting goals is good and a new Apache release is not around the corner so tagging some bugs for now as release blocker (or some other less obliging tag for what I am concerned) doesn't really mean nothing. cheers, Pedro.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sep 4, 2011 3:45 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. ... unless they are on the PPMC private list, when that royal we no longer includes everyone here. I believe Terry and others are saying that the (independent) forum community has a similar approach, with a private forum for sensitive matters. I also believe that in the interests of that very transparency you and others are invited to participate in that place as a transitional activity. What exactly is the problem here? S.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Rob, the volunteers on the forums want to keep providing a service for all OOo end-users that they can take pride and dignity in. That's all. The debating style here can be robust and sometimes falls far below the standard that we expect participants to follow. http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=76 (The English version) Many people are unwilling to be (what they view as ) attacked this way on a DL that can go to 100s of recipients. This Apache way might work for a group of largely US and nearly all English first-tongue/fluent-speaking software developers, but the approach doesn't work for other communities and cultures. It really needs to be more flexible if Apache wants to move beyond this base. I agree that a fully open model can work. I am an active Wikipedian and it works there, but the collaborative vehicle -- an overloaded wiki model -- if just so much more flexible than using 1980s-style plain-text email. Also the Policies and Guidelines are strictly policed: you can hide your email address, and users who break the rules are admonished or blocked. Here once you speak out you are putting out an Email address and on which you be harassed thereafter. I will quote one of my responses on these thread -- that those with CV rights can check: * Re: Status: OpenOffice.org Preservation/Migration with Apache http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=90t=43715#p201536 To be honest, I think that the best think for all would be for Apache to accept that a user-facing service is very different from interacting with developers and show us a little toleration. I think most of us would prefer the Apache route or maybe a LibO route if we could keep the forums running smoothly. In my view the crazy thing is that this type of service could be incredibly useful for other Apache projects. Our model is designed to scale and we could just as easily add and run a forum to support another Apache project as we could another National Language for OOo. I continue to wish for the best, but I am not hopeful. If this would all settle down then I would consider re-engaging. But whether we go or stay is really a consensus decision for this community to make. I just don't want to be portrayed as the leader of the rebellion. However, I need my month in Greece to regain my sense of peace and harmony, before I take on anything else relating to OOo or any other major project. I am not going to try to speak for them. I would suggest that if you, who are seen as the main spokesperson for the hard Apache line, aren't willing to show a step in the direction of reconciliation -- say by joining the forums as a volunteer and listening to them in their own environment -- then Apache will have zero chance of getting them to participate. They have tried v.v. and given up. Regards Terry On 04/09/11 15:42, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Reizinger Zoltánzreizin...@hdsnet.hu wrote: snip Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you not makes any steps into the other directions? I'm assuming the volunteers and admins want positive results. The decision-making in the project occurs on this list -- ooo-dev -- by participants making and discussing proposals.So I think that volunteers and admins should join and participate in this list so they can engage in an open, two-way conversation on how the project, including the support forums, are run. Remember, I am just one person, with my own ppinion. I have only one vote. I don't make the decisions myself. But if an admin or other forum volunteer is not participating on the ooo-dev list at all, then their opinions will likely be unheard and their vote uncounted. That is why you should encourage them to participate on the ooo-dev list. -Rob
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
2011.09.04. 16:42 keltezéssel, Rob Weir írta: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Reizinger Zoltánzreizin...@hdsnet.hu wrote: snip Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you not makes any steps into the other directions? I'm assuming the volunteers and admins want positive results. The decision-making in the project occurs on this list -- ooo-dev -- by participants making and discussing proposals.So I think that volunteers and admins should join and participate in this list so they can engage in an open, two-way conversation on how the project, including the support forums, are run. If I know correctly they interested in supporting users, and whether forum will survive the Oracle- Apache transition and no more. If they interested in AOOo development and other project things, will join to this list, or join to podling project as I did. Most of them reading this list through mail reader, or subscribed here. May be they see no reason to joining this type of discussion. Remember, I am just one person, with my own ppinion. I have only one vote. I don't make the decisions myself. But if an admin or other forum volunteer is not participating on the ooo-dev list at all, then their opinions will likely be unheard and their vote uncounted. That is why you should encourage them to participate on the ooo-dev list. -Rob Zoltan
Re: OpenOffice most annoying bugs
--- On Sun, 9/4/11, Marcus (OOo) wrote: ... As addition: It's also about code quality and stability. I have never said the contrary. Currently we have already a (relative) stable code with the released OOo 3.4 Beta. So, it would be IMHO not clever to through in all the new code from the 24 issues, build again and get surprised what is now not working. stable is such a relative concept. I don't think we are stable yet (neither is LO), and we have a long way to go before a release. Furthermore I am NOT suggesting we apply blindly 24 patches today and cross fingers to see if works tomorrow. We have to select very carfully what to integrate. I think that instead of complaining so much about a list of bugs with fixes that I looked up (and that I will likely never update again), you could spend time more constructively criticizing the bugs at a technical level, or at least pointing out those that you *do* consider showstoppers. Personally, being a new guy to this code base, I did the list just to have an idea of what there is to be found in there. I do think this can wait after the CWS' are integrated. I also thought one of the general objectives was bringing the LO-OO codebases nearer together but it seems that is not really a priority anymore. Drawing such a list is not exactly fun and I am, in no position to *force* anything to be fixed so take the list just as a point of reference and nothing more. Also, fwiw, it is not my plan (and never was) to make this a periodic posting (the heading is actually a pun to a similar posting at some other list): committers will have to learn to work as effectively as they can with Bugzilla. cheers, Pedro.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote: On Sep 4, 2011 3:45 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. ... unless they are on the PPMC private list, when that royal we no longer includes everyone here. I believe Terry and others are saying that the (independent) forum community has a similar approach, with a private forum for sensitive matters. I also believe that in the interests of that very transparency you and others are invited to participate in that place as a transitional activity. Simon, we are not discussing project operations on ooo-private. We use that list for voting in new committers and for exchanging confidential information, like the real email addresses of new committers. Almost any other attempted use of ooo-private has been quickly shut down my our Mentors, rightfully, since the default behavior should be to discuss things openly. In fact, if the very discussion that is currently occurring (according to Terry) on the private forum had occurred on ooo-private, we would have received a lecture from a Mentor on the need for transparency. -Rob
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 10:45:31 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. As far as I recollect, the private discussions referred to were those concerned with moderation decisions, which decisions were reviewed by the volunteers on a private channel on the Forum. There are three private channels open to me on the http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ as a Volunteer - Delete Topics, which is a holding channel to permit undeleting of a posting (held for three days), EN Forum issues and Server - Site Governance. In these two latter channels suggestions or queries were channeled to Terry concerning code alteration and other technical matters, and governance queries were raised, as, for example, review of suspicious activity of a given poster, or reconsideration of the actions of a moderator. All other discussions take place in public. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 10:45:31 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. As far as I recollect, the private discussions referred to were those concerned with moderation decisions, which decisions were reviewed by the volunteers on a private channel on the Forum. Your information is incomplete then. Earlier in the thread Terry said that there were ongoing discussions in the private forum that paralleled this discussion. I assume you are aware of that thread? There are three private channels open to me on the http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ as a Volunteer - Delete Topics, which is a holding channel to permit undeleting of a posting (held for three days), EN Forum issues and Server - Site Governance. In these two latter channels suggestions or queries were channeled to Terry concerning code alteration and other technical matters, and governance queries were raised, as, for example, review of suspicious activity of a given poster, or reconsideration of the actions of a moderator. All other discussions take place in public. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: [users] Re: Languages
Hi Andrea, On Sunday, 2011-09-04 16:39:35 +0200, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Rob Weir wrote: 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here. Ultimately what matters to us is whether ISO assigned a code to the language or not, so a technical issue; as I wrote earlier, it did in ISO 639-2 (Neapolitan = nap); and this is all that matters to us. I definitely agree people should not debate non-technical issues on this list. Indeed, availability of an ISO 639 alpha code is the only thing that matters to OOo. Then Dale will be stuck at the issue creation phase, since BugZilla is being migrated too. BugZilla is migrated. Changing the creation links in the wiki doesn't make sense right now because the wiki is being migrated.. best to wait until things settled down. This is why I wrote that it's probably best to contact Eike Rathke directly, since these issues used to be assigned to him. I've taken the liberty to CC him explicitly, sorry Eike if you preferred otherwise. It's ok, I use a capable mailer that tells me this mail was also posted to a mailing list. I don't know though what I should do at the moment with new languages/locales being requested, they'd just pile up. I could integrate them to LibreOffice.. And good luck with bringing a new language to OpenOffice.org! This will take a few months, I guess. Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Who wants to build OpenOffice?
Hi Marc-Oliver, On Thursday, 2011-09-01 14:38:36 +0200, Marc-Oliver Straub wrote: I switched to gcc44, and get the following build error: Entering /tmp/apache_oo/svn_clean/ooo/main/xml2cmp/source/finder Compiling: xml2cmp/source/finder/dependy.cxx /tmp/apache_oo/svn_clean/ooo/main/solver/340/unxlngx6.pro/bin/makedepend: error while loading shared libraries: /tmp/apache_oo/svn_clean/ooo/main/solver/340/unxlngx6.pro/lib/libstdc++.so.6: file too short Dumb question: did you start from a fresh clean tree and did not mix older compiled stuff with the new compiler? Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:52:00 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Your information is incomplete then. Earlier in the thread Terry said that there were ongoing discussions in the private forum that paralleled this discussion. I assume you are aware of that thread? Such discusssions were mostly commentary on the the discussion on this thread, and subsequently reaction to the hard anti-Forum line being pursued by many of the posters to this thread, with reaction from some volunteers to the way they were shouted down or ignored. If you joine the list as Terry suggested, you would have access to those channels and their history. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: Rob, the volunteers on the forums want to keep providing a service for all OOo end-users that they can take pride and dignity in. That's all. The debating style here can be robust and sometimes falls far below the standard that we expect participants to follow. http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewforum.php?f=76 (The English version) I have every due bit of sympathy for the trauma (as I've heard it called in another context) of migrating from OOo to AOOo. But you are not the only one. And the support forums are not the only project function that will need to make some changes. It is hardly the function undergoing the greatest changes. The dev work, especially with the change of VCS and license is requiring changes far greater than the support forums will. Ditto for overall project decision making. For example, no more Engineering Steering Committee, no Community Council, etc. Of all project functions, the support forums are the ones that are being migrated with the least changes. Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not own the support forums. They do not operate autonomously. They may have pride in its operation -- I hope they do -- but this does not mean that they have exclusive ownership of this or any aspect of this project. This may take some getting used to. Pride will come from accomplishment, not from exclusive control. Many people are unwilling to be (what they view as ) attacked this way on a DL that can go to 100s of recipients. This Apache way might work for a group of largely US and nearly all English first-tongue/fluent-speaking software developers, but the approach doesn't work for other communities and cultures. It really needs to be more flexible if Apache wants to move beyond this base. If by flexible you mean that we discuss routine project operations in private because we don't like email lists, then I disagree. I agree that a fully open model can work. I am an active Wikipedian and it works there, but the collaborative vehicle -- an overloaded wiki model -- if just so much more flexible than using 1980s-style plain-text email. Also the Policies and Guidelines are strictly policed: you can hide your email address, and users who break the rules are admonished or blocked. Here once you speak out you are putting out an Email address and on which you be harassed thereafter. Terry, it is not like Apache is trying out the idea of running projects on email for the first time today. This is not a novel experiment. It works and has worked for over 100 Apache projects and for longer than OOo has existed.. And that fact that OOo has 300+ mailing lists itself shows that the concept is not entirely antithetical to how OOo works. We should also try to separate the technology from the process. A mailing list is a means to an end. The use of private mailing lists, used only when needed, have several qualities: 1) All PPMC members receive them 2) All Podling Mentors receive them, which allows them to admonish us if we abuse the private list 3) They are archived and searchable (discoverable in a legal sense) by Apache 4) All ASF Members have the ability to consult all private list archives If there is a reasonable way to achieve the same results for the private forums, then I would be very pleased. But inviting PPMC members to join does not achieve all of these goals. However, echoing private forum traffic to ooo-private would. I will quote one of my responses on these thread -- that those with CV rights can check: * Re: Status: OpenOffice.org Preservation/Migration with Apache http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=90t=43715#p201536 To be honest, I think that the best think for all would be for Apache to accept that a user-facing service is very different from interacting with developers and show us a little toleration. I think most of us would prefer the Apache route or maybe a LibO route if we could keep the forums running smoothly. In my view the crazy thing is that this type of service could be incredibly useful for other Apache projects. Our model is designed to scale and we could just as easily add and run a forum to support another Apache project as we could another National Language for OOo. I continue to wish for the best, but I am not hopeful. If this would all settle down then I would consider re-engaging. But whether we go or stay is really a consensus decision for this community to make. I just don't want to be portrayed as the leader of the rebellion. However, I need my month in Greece to regain my sense of peace and harmony, before I take on anything else relating to OOo or any other major project. I am not going to try to speak for them. I would suggest that if you, who are seen as the main spokesperson for the hard Apache line, aren't willing to show a step
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sep 4, 2011 5:14 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not own the support forums. They do not operate autonomously. Are you sure? I believe they do. S.
Re: OpenOffice most annoying bugs
Am 09/04/2011 05:10 PM, schrieb Pedro F. Giffuni: --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: ... Example 1: - A posting in LO mailinglist from Sept 2010 says: Creating a 'bug' saw no action in 3 years Here is hoping that posting the patch to this new project will :-) (There goes one developer that will probably think it twice before submitting new patches here) Sorry, clearly not a stopper for me. It doesn't fix a bug but introduce a new feature. This shouldn't be a stopper candidate. Nahh.. you haven't been doing your homework: that issue was indeed a bug and the issue has been fixed now. I was highlighting the effect of ignoring bugs for too long though: it has an influence on the community as such. How should I do better research when you don't give me an issue ID? ;-) So, of course I cannot know that it is a bug. Example 2: Bug 7065 (Which Marcus considers not to be a showstopper) says in 2003: I think it is a mistake to future this bug. Page numbering is a very important function of all worprocessing software and its discoverability must at least be increased. When an issue is open und unsolved since 2003 then it is sad. No doubt. However, it's still not an issue that should suddenly stop a release. And after that there are 13 issues closed as duplicates to this same bug. Yes, someone has to review the patches, and the applied fixes won't necessarily match the submitted diffs or what LibreOffice committed but we do have a good starting point to fix these issues and the wider community has seen a value in fixing them so I do think they have a higher priority. Yes and no. It doesn't depend from where the issue or patch comes or how old it is. It's about the issue itself, what part of the application it covers and its severity. Which is all subjective and basically translates to whatever a random developer feels he should be working on today. Not if the most of us have the same opinion. Then it is no longer subjective. Come on.. let's admit: bug fixing never follows a coordinated, well developed, plan to improve our product, at least not in a volunteer project. Why not? Do you like to work in chaos where everybody is doing something but not together? I hope not. ;-) What I am saying here is that setting goals is good and a new Apache release is not around the corner so tagging some bugs for now as release blocker (or some other less obliging tag for what I am concerned) doesn't really mean nothing. Right, but not all of these 24 issues are blocker. Maybe the one and other. Marcus
Re: OpenOffice most annoying bugs
Am 09/04/2011 05:31 PM, schrieb Pedro F. Giffuni: --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Marcus (OOo) wrote: ... As addition: It's also about code quality and stability. I have never said the contrary. Currently we have already a (relative) stable code with the released OOo 3.4 Beta. So, it would be IMHO not clever to through in all the new code from the 24 issues, build again and get surprised what is now not working. stable is such a relative concept. I don't think we are stable yet (neither is LO), and we have a long way to go before a release. Furthermore I am NOT suggesting we apply blindly 24 patches today and cross fingers to see if works tomorrow. Hm, I got the impression in your first postings that you wanted this. Good when it is not. Then we are both looking into the same direction. We have to select very carfully what to integrate. I think that instead of complaining so much about a list of bugs with fixes that I looked up (and that I will likely never update again), you could spend time more constructively criticizing the bugs at a technical level, I'm not a developer. I'm not familar with the deep technology in the source code. or at least pointing out those that you *do* consider showstoppers. IMHO it's not the time to discuss show stopper. Personally, being a new guy to this code base, I did the list just to have an idea of what there is to be found in there. I do think this can wait after the CWS' are integrated. I also thought one of the general objectives was bringing the LO-OO codebases nearer together but it seems that is not really a priority anymore. I don't know if one of our top goals is to bring/keep LO and OOo close together. IMHO it's also up to the others not to run so much in front. Drawing such a list is not exactly fun and I am, in no position to *force* anything to be fixed so take the list just as a point of reference and nothing more. Which I did. Also, fwiw, it is not my plan (and never was) to make this a periodic posting (the heading is actually a pun to a similar posting at some other list): committers will have to learn to work as effectively as they can with Bugzilla. Right. And to find the real stoppers we have to work in Bugzilla and to find the still open issues that fulfills the stopper criteria. Marcus
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Donald Whytock dwhyt...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Do you really want to discuss a users behavior in public? Wow, I really don't want to do that. I strongly believe that only a few people would discuss another guys behavior in public. It happens. In fact it happened here, on this list, yesterday. There was some pretty excessive vitriol, open and in public. And yet it seemed to work into more mature and rational discussion today. If behavior discussions are going to occur at all, it's probably better that they happen in public rather than there be the feeling of a secret faceless committee to which users can neither respond nor appeal. The latter can lead to discontent. It might be different to discuss roughly at the dev forums were most people know each other than in a public message boards were even my grandmother might participate. At this project I heard the term end users very often; I don't think you can use the same rules of heavy geek-discussion for end users of OpenOffice. I agree. But I think that just means that support forum admins/moderators bring such discussions over here, to the project mailing lists. Honestly, if a forum volunteer is not already on this list, understanding what we are doing and how Apache project works and how the code base is developing, etc., then they will have a very difficult time fairly representing the project to the users. I don't think the project benefits if support volunteers are detached from the primary project discussion list. And we all are at a disadvantage if the support volunteers are not contributing to this list. The same arguments against fragmenting the project into dozens of mailing lists, also apply here. Just as we would not create a separate ooo-support-operations-discuss mailing list, we should not encourage the same from happening via a forum. The fact that support operations are also discussed in private only makes this fragmentation more problematic. This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. -Rob
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
It might be different to discuss roughly at the dev forums were most people know each other than in a public message boards were even my grandmother might participate. At this project I heard the term end users very often; I don't think you can use the same rules of heavy geek-discussion for end users of OpenOffice. I agree. But I think that just means that support forum admins/moderators bring such discussions over here, to the project mailing lists. Honestly, if a forum volunteer is not already on this list, understanding what we are doing and how Apache project works and how the code base is developing, etc., then they will have a very difficult time fairly representing the project to the users. I don't think the project benefits if support volunteers are detached from the primary project discussion list. +1 And we all are at a disadvantage if the support volunteers are not contributing to this list. The same arguments against fragmenting the project into dozens of mailing lists, also apply here. Just as we would not create a separate ooo-support-operations-discuss mailing list, we should not encourage the same from happening via a forum. The fact that support operations are also discussed in private only makes this fragmentation more problematic. This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. +1 Sounds like a plan. And by the way, my grandmother is a nice person actually ;-) Cheers -Rob -- http://www.grobmeier.de
Re: [code] [PUSHED] build on Linux 64 bits (Fedora 15)
Hi Ariel, On Friday, 2011-09-02 17:43:44 -0300, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote: after some investigation, it turns out that the component is not included in the services.rdb, due to a typo in postprocess/packcomponents/makefile.mk -.IF $(ENABLE_OGL) == TRUE +.IF $(ENABLE_OPENGL) == TRUE my_components += ogltrans .END Makes sense, pushed. Thanks Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 04/09/11 17:22, Simon Phipps wrote: On Sep 4, 2011 5:14 PM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not own the support forums. They do not operate autonomously. Are you sure? I believe they do. +1 to Simons view -1 to Rob. AFAIK, A Sun admin has logged onto this services maybe half-a-dozen times to install the base O/S and Coolstack years ago, and no Oracle Oracle-employed admin has ever done so. Coolstack is years out of date for this reason. I (assisted by Drew in the early days) do all of the root admin as well as run the Forums. They have always been autonomous from the OOo project organisation hierarchy. The initial decision to allow their creation in the first place was more of a Sun one than an OOo project one -- as the project didn't see the need to have a working User Community and Sun did and provided the box for us to run our service on, though in later years the project came to value the role that the forums have played. So from day 1 the forums have always been autonomous. And one key driver here was so that the community could have the freedom to up-sticks and take their knowledge elsewhere should the relationship break down -- our primary allegiance and service duty is to the end-user community, and not to a development project. The last friction was over the whole issue of whether the forums should continue to support non-Oracle variants such as LibreOffice, which it did and still does against some then strong Oracle opinions. I think that both Drew and I have said this on a number of occasions. To demand that the community unilaterally surrender such autonomy without reasonable engagement is a pretty sure way IMHO to force them to consider the new home option. Despite all of the hassle over the last few days, my preference would be to vote to stay, but I am only one voice in what I think is currently a minority opinion.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:52:00 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Your information is incomplete then. Earlier in the thread Terry said that there were ongoing discussions in the private forum that paralleled this discussion. I assume you are aware of that thread? Such discusssions were mostly commentary on the the discussion on this thread, and subsequently reaction to the hard anti-Forum line being pursued by many of the posters to this thread, with reaction from some volunteers to the way they were shouted down or ignored. I don't think anyone is anti-Forum. Just last week I had mailing list volunteers accusing me of being a mailing list hater because I suggested we should do support primarily on the support forums. The truth is I, and many others, are just trying to figure out how best integrate the eclectic mix of OOo sub projects and their communities into an Apache project. This includes the support forums, but it includes a lot more as well. If you think someone had a post that was ignored, please point me to it. I might be able to help you formulate it into a more concrete proposal. If you joine the list as Terry suggested, you would have access to those channels and their history. I don't think we disagree based on lack of information. I think it is more based on differing opinions on the importance of transparency and Apache Way decision making. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 17:22, Simon Phipps wrote: On Sep 4, 2011 5:14 PM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not own the support forums. They do not operate autonomously. Are you sure? I believe they do. +1 to Simons view -1 to Rob. AFAIK, A Sun admin has logged onto this services maybe half-a-dozen times to install the base O/S and Coolstack years ago, and no Oracle Oracle-employed admin has ever done so. Coolstack is years out of date for this reason. I (assisted by Drew in the early days) do all of the root admin as well as run the Forums. They have always been autonomous from the OOo project organisation hierarchy. The initial decision to allow their creation in the first place was more of a Sun one than an OOo project one -- as the project didn't see the need to have a working User Community and Sun did and provided the box for us to run our service on, though in later years the project came to value the role that the forums have played. So from day 1 the forums have always been autonomous. And one key driver here was so that the community could have the freedom to up-sticks and take their knowledge elsewhere should the relationship break down -- our primary allegiance and service duty is to the end-user community, and not to a development project. The last friction was over the whole issue of whether the forums should continue to support non-Oracle variants such as LibreOffice, which it did and still does against some then strong Oracle opinions. I think that both Drew and I have said this on a number of occasions. To demand that the community unilaterally surrender such autonomy without reasonable engagement is a pretty sure way IMHO to force them to consider the new home option. Despite all of the hassle over the last few days, my preference would be to vote to stay, but I am only one voice in what I think is currently a minority opinion. I think it would be good if they made up their mind soon. I thought we were close to the physical migration being completed. If the current volunteers are not on board with the Apache project, then we'll need to explore alternative approaches, such as: 1) Point users to http://www.oooforum.org/ 2) Do support via mailing list only 3) Use forums, but find new volunteers
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 04/09/11 16:49, Rob Weir wrote: ... we are not discussing project operations on ooo-private. We use that list for voting in new committers and for exchanging confidential information, like the real email addresses of new committers. Almost any other attempted use of ooo-private has been quickly shut down my our Mentors, rightfully, since the default behavior should be to discuss things openly. In fact, if the very discussion that is currently occurring (according to Terry) on the private forum had occurred on ooo-private, we would have received a lecture from a Mentor on the need for transparency. Rob we are not talking about project operations in private in u.s.oo.o either. We are talking about User Community business in private on a User Community-run server. I know that you want to unilaterally subsume this community into the project, but this isn't the status quo. It's a fundamental change that you are demanding of this community. You also rightly point out that my comments are hearsay. Can I just point out the irony of your also speaking on a Mentor's behalf? You are another member of the PPMC. How can you know what a Mentor will just in this context, especially as some have expressed very different views themselves in early related discussions.You can't. So please don't claim this authority to strengthen your own personal position. If any Mentors, Jim, Sam, Danese, Shane, Nóirín, Joe, Christian or Ross, would like to have a look around the forums including the currently private sub-forums and form their own views, then I will gladly extend my previous invitation to give them this access. Regards Terry
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Terry Ellison wrote on Sun, Sep 04, 2011 at 18:09:15 +0100: On 04/09/11 16:49, Rob Weir wrote: ... we are not discussing project operations on ooo-private. We use that list for voting in new committers and for exchanging confidential information, like the real email addresses of new committers. Almost any other attempted use of ooo-private has been quickly shut down my our Mentors, rightfully, since the default behavior should be to discuss things openly. In fact, if the very discussion that is currently occurring (according to Terry) on the private forum had occurred on ooo-private, we would have received a lecture from a Mentor on the need for transparency. Rob we are not talking about project operations in private in u.s.oo.o either. We are talking about User Community business in private on a User Community-run server. I know that you want to unilaterally subsume this community into the project, but this isn't the status quo. It's a fundamental change that you are demanding of this community. If the forums community doesn't want to become part of the ASF project then why has the PPMC asked infra to migrate the forums to ASF hardware? (Terry, in case it's not clear, I'm speaking with Devil's Advocate hat on.)
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On 04/09/11 17:47, Christian Grobmeier wrote: It might be different to discuss roughly at the dev forums were most people know each other than in a public message boards were even my grandmother might participate. At this project I heard the term end users very often; I don't think you can use the same rules of heavy geek-discussion for end users of OpenOffice. I agree. But I think that just means that support forum admins/moderators bring such discussions over here, to the project mailing lists. Honestly, if a forum volunteer is not already on this list, understanding what we are doing and how Apache project works and how the code base is developing, etc., then they will have a very difficult time fairly representing the project to the users. I don't think the project benefits if support volunteers are detached from the primary project discussion list. +1 -0.75 Actually they don't really need to understand anything about how Apache works or how the code-base is developing. They do end-user support. The only need to understand how the product /as released and shipped/ operates for the end-users. Knowing about futures is a very low priority nice-to-have. And we all are at a disadvantage if the support volunteers are not contributing to this list. The same arguments against fragmenting the project into dozens of mailing lists, also apply here. Just as we would not create a separate ooo-support-operations-discuss mailing list, we should not encourage the same from happening via a forum. The fact that support operations are also discussed in private only makes this fragmentation more problematic. This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. +1 -0.75 yes we should put this to the community, but this is not how they operate today. I do know that the majority of the big hitters are really unhappy with this. Please realise that if you force this one, you will probably have a very obedient forum, but one with nobody answering any Qs -- or some revolt where they take their service en-mass elsewhere. Policy discussions are one matter, but moderation must be the business of the moderators. They have made it quite clear in the past that they really don't want to have these discussions in public view. Again we can only sound them out.
Re: Re : change UI font size
The users on the user list sent me to this (dev) list. I use linux with KDE 3.5. Un/selecting use system font has no effect. Adding font replacements has no effect. I tried the scaling options, but they only affect the document I am editing, not the UI. Please tell me, where in the source code is the size of the UI font set? On 9/2/11, Fred Juan DIAZ fred_ka...@yahoo.fr wrote: Hi I propose us not to pollute dev-list about this interesting problem which would concern only a few of them (those working on UI refreshing defect issues, graphic management etc.) If you accept, please subscribe to the new user list by sending an email to: ooo-users-subscr...@incubator.apache.org then Reply to confirm, and you'll be subscribed I'm going to follow your thread on this new user list and AOOo dev will just have to extract interesting thinks for them. In particular some informations are needed 1a) Which O.S. are you using, which version ? 1b) case Linux : which windowmanager, which version ? 2) Which version of OOo, and from which repository ? 3) didn't you forget to unselect Use system font for user interface ? 4) Does font changing (in replace with) has any effect on your UI ? ... others questions we'll have to examine As far as I know, storage of this percentage is done in the xml file ~/.openoffice.org/3/user/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/Common.xcu for example, if you choose 119% then close OOo launch an Xterm $ cd /home/me/.openoffice.org $ grep -R 119 * will show you this file and in it, look for value119/value (max allowed is 130) But I don't know which part of code is concerned here. (only tester, not dev :-/ ) anyway I think better to go on user list regards Fred Juan DIAZ = - Mail original - De : the mad doctor kaeding the.mad.doctor.kaed...@gmail.com À : ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc : Envoyé le : Vendredi 2 Septembre 2011 18h51 Objet : Re: change UI font size I have tried setting a font substitution Andale Sans UI - something else, and it would not take it. I have tried going into the options and adjusting the scaling, but it has no effect on the UI font. I have tried all possible configuration options with no success. Would someone please point to the place in the source code where the size of the UI font is set? Thank you. On 8/30/11, Fred Juan DIAZ fred_ka...@yahoo.fr wrote: --- En date de : Mar 30.8.11, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de a écrit : De: Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de Objet: Re: change UI font size À: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: 'the mad doctor kaeding' the.mad.doctor.kaed...@gmail.com Date: Mardi 30 août 2011, 22h21 Tools - Options - View Here you can set some options that will influence the UI: - Scaling Uses percentile scaling for font size in user interface elements, such as dialogs and icon labels. The Scaling setting does not affect the font size of text in a document. - Use system font for user interface Specifies to use the system font to display all menus and dialogs. Else another installed font is used. BTW: It's not possible to set a specific font and/or size for displaying the UI in OOo. HTH Marcus = It's hopefully possible Tools Options OpenOffice.org View unselect Use system fonts for user interface then Tools Options OpenOffice.org Fonts select Apply replacement table the default font (not documented) is Andale Sans UI (comes from StarOffice 5.1 I guess, and not appearing in the really installed fonts :-) may be developers will have to see there later, it's a mystery for the tester but non-coder that i'm. so in the left line Font, put Andale Sans UI right replace with: choose the font you wish select Always and Screen OK but you'll notice that the font used by default, DejaVu Sans is the widest one. about size, answer was given Tools Options OpenOffice.org View Scaling 125% see there too http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Font-FAQ regards and sorry to be still out of dev subjects fredjd
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 04/09/11 18:01, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 17:22, Simon Phipps wrote: On Sep 4, 2011 5:14 PM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.orgwrote: Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not own the support forums. They do not operate autonomously. Are you sure? I believe they do. +1 to Simons view -1 to Rob. AFAIK, A Sun admin has logged onto this services maybe half-a-dozen times to install the base O/S and Coolstack years ago, and no Oracle Oracle-employed admin has ever done so. Coolstack is years out of date for this reason. I (assisted by Drew in the early days) do all of the root admin as well as run the Forums. They have always been autonomous from the OOo project organisation hierarchy. The initial decision to allow their creation in the first place was more of a Sun one than an OOo project one -- as the project didn't see the need to have a working User Community and Sun did and provided the box for us to run our service on, though in later years the project came to value the role that the forums have played. So from day 1 the forums have always been autonomous. And one key driver here was so that the community could have the freedom to up-sticks and take their knowledge elsewhere should the relationship break down -- our primary allegiance and service duty is to the end-user community, and not to a development project. The last friction was over the whole issue of whether the forums should continue to support non-Oracle variants such as LibreOffice, which it did and still does against some then strong Oracle opinions. I think that both Drew and I have said this on a number of occasions. To demand that the community unilaterally surrender such autonomy without reasonable engagement is a pretty sure way IMHO to force them to consider the new home option. Despite all of the hassle over the last few days, my preference would be to vote to stay, but I am only one voice in what I think is currently a minority opinion. First do you at least acknowledge that your earlier statements that the forums do not operate autonomously was factually incorrect? I think it would be good if they made up their mind soon. I thought we were close to the physical migration being completed. Second on technical point actual the workflow goes (my SSH to Oracle) - (my VM in my house) - svn - the ooo-*.a.o VMs. The infra team have been very insistent that this last step can be done by any sysadmin. It really doesn't have to be a susadmin in a.o. This is a pretty trivial step that could be pretty much anywhere. If the current volunteers are not on board with the Apache project, then we'll need to explore alternative approaches, such as: 1) Point users to http://www.oooforum.org/ 2) Do support via mailing list only 3) Use forums, but find new volunteers If these are your options, then perhaps we should put this to a formal PPMC vote and inform the community of this -- if the outcome is as you are proposin ing this ultimatum, then you really are forcing them into the revolt option. Very unnecessary and regrettable, IMHO
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Being a member-based organization the ASF requires that all foundation activities be subject to member scrutiny (with only a handful of operational exceptions). I would be perfectly satisfied if the private forums are fully archived and made available to any ASF member on request, without undue delay. From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sep 4, 2011 3:45 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. ... unless they are on the PPMC private list, when that royal we no longer includes everyone here. I believe Terry and others are saying that the (independent) forum community has a similar approach, with a private forum for sensitive matters. I also believe that in the interests of that very transparency you and others are invited to participate in that place as a transitional activity. What exactly is the problem here? S.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 04/09/11 18:15, Daniel Shahaf wrote: ... If the forums community doesn't want to become part of the ASF project then why has the PPMC asked infra to migrate the forums to ASF hardware? ... Because those of us who are engaged on the project thought that it's the best thing to do, and want them to do this. But the volunteer community are still autonomous today. If you want someone to join your party, then the best way is to use rational arguments and gentle persuasion. Giving bald ultimatums to communities with other options usually achieves the direct opposite effect. So it doesn't seem a rational approach to me -- unless, of course, your primary object is really to shut down the service, and then it is rational.
Re: [legal] ICLA paragraph 7
Hi Rob, On Wednesday, 2011-08-31 20:11:01 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: So I think we take this on a case-by-case basis. Personally, I don't have problems with a small patch of a few lines where the author has clearly expressed they are contributing it under ALv2. But a patch of 10,000 lines of code with doubted provenance? I wasn't mentioning doubted provenance. I'm talking about cases where the author clearly states that he owns the copyright and contributes the work under AL2. If someone hands me a check for $10 and has an illegible signature on it, I might let that pass. But if someone gives me a check for $1 I would probably insist on a legible signature. If the illegible signature is the one deposited with the bank, insisting on a legible signature wouldn't help much, to the contrary, you might not get your money. And from a community development perspective, we should be looking for opportunities to encourage contributors to sign the iCLA and look for ways to vote them in as Committers. If someone is making many patches, especially significant ones, and we have not voted them in as a Committer, then the PPMC is doing something wrong. I'm taking the occasional savvy contributor into consideration who does not want to get involved too deeply with the project and does not want to sign a CLA, yet is willing to contribute his work. You know that these are two different things, yes? Yes. Someone can sign the iCLA but not become a committer and so not have any deeper commitment to participate in the project. Anyhow, if this did come up, I'd try to understand why the person was unwilling to sign the iCLA. Not as a debate or an argument, but to hear their concerns. We might be able to persuade them. But if not, then it is likely that we would need to decline the contribution. There are people who won't sign whatever CA, call it philosophical conception, due to history especially not if it's for OOo. If contributions are welcome only under iCLA you probably won't see them showing up here. Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:51:56 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Just so I am perfectly clear. There should be two kinds of project discussions: 1) Those that are in public and 2) Those that are in private because they deal with matters that are sensitive, such as handling of confidential information There is no third category of: Discussions behind the scene are not proposals; they emerge into one or more consensuses Discussions like that need to start happening in public, just like the discussions we are having right now are in public. We don't reach consensus and then do a perfunctory post of a proposal, fait accompli. That is not transparency. From beginning to end we discuss in public. Do you never walk to the water cooler and float something by someone else, as a preparatory stage in working out yuour thoughts? -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
Terry Ellison wrote: [Rob Weir] Honestly, if a forum volunteer is not already on this list, understanding what we are doing and how Apache project works and how the code base is developing, etc., then they will have a very difficult time fairly representing the project to the users. ... -0.75 Actually they don't really need to understand anything about how Apache works or how the code-base is developing. They do end-user support. The only need to understand how the product /as released and shipped/ operates for the end-users. I agree with Terry: the Italian forum has a few moderators, including me; I'm regularly following this list but the others do not, either for language reasons or because it is actually useless to follow the project in detail when the main focus of the user forum is peer-to-peer support (and thus the product, not the project). And with the time they save by not following international lists they answer many more user questions than I do; and it's enough for them to follow the Italian discussion lists (or the Italian association lists) to stay up-to-date with announcements, especially at release time. Regards, Andrea.
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 13:38 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 17:47, Christian Grobmeier wrote: It might be different to discuss roughly at the dev forums were most people know each other than in a public message boards were even my grandmother might participate. At this project I heard the term end users very often; I don't think you can use the same rules of heavy geek-discussion for end users of OpenOffice. I agree. But I think that just means that support forum admins/moderators bring such discussions over here, to the project mailing lists. Honestly, if a forum volunteer is not already on this list, understanding what we are doing and how Apache project works and how the code base is developing, etc., then they will have a very difficult time fairly representing the project to the users. I don't think the project benefits if support volunteers are detached from the primary project discussion list. +1 -0.75 Actually they don't really need to understand anything about how Apache works or how the code-base is developing. They do end-user support. The only need to understand how the product /as released and shipped/ operates for the end-users. Knowing about futures is a very low priority nice-to-have. And they need to know that information on the day a new release comes out, so they can answer questions that come on day 1 of that new release. *chuckling* - you know, I hope, that at least 6 (I didn't go count fully) or more of the forum admins/mods are already PPMC members. You might not know that on the forum, the information provided to users about how and where to enter defects was updated within 24 hours of the new Bugzilla going on line - we beat the notices on the ML's and the wiki I think. //drew
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: Being a member-based organization the ASF requires that all foundation activities be subject to member scrutiny (with only a handful of operational exceptions). I would be perfectly satisfied if the private forums are fully archived and made available to any ASF member on request, without undue delay. And to all PPMC members as well. -Rob From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sep 4, 2011 3:45 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. ... unless they are on the PPMC private list, when that royal we no longer includes everyone here. I believe Terry and others are saying that the (independent) forum community has a similar approach, with a private forum for sensitive matters. I also believe that in the interests of that very transparency you and others are invited to participate in that place as a transitional activity. What exactly is the problem here? S.
Re: Re : change UI font size
On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 13:32 -0400, the mad doctor kaeding wrote: The users on the user list sent me to this (dev) list. I use linux with KDE 3.5. Un/selecting use system font has no effect. Adding font replacements has no effect. I tried the scaling options, but they only affect the document I am editing, not the UI. Please tell me, where in the source code is the size of the UI font set? Not sure on where in the code - but this type of thing often has one sure fire fix - kill the user configuration direction and when the application starts the next time it creates new, default settings. You should find that user config file at: home/.openoffice/user Just rename that directory with the application stopped and then start it up, should clear the problem. HTH //drew snip
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 14:05 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: Being a member-based organization the ASF requires that all foundation activities be subject to member scrutiny (with only a handful of operational exceptions). I would be perfectly satisfied if the private forums are fully archived and made available to any ASF member on request, without undue delay. And to all PPMC members as well. Archived, yes fully and for that matter you can't edit a single letter in anything without the logs catching what you did...and those logs would be fully under ASF Infra control. //drew snip
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 18:36, Joe Schaefer wrote: Being a member-based organization the ASF requires that all foundation activities be subject to member scrutiny (with only a handful of operational exceptions). I would be perfectly satisfied if the private forums are fully archived and made available to any ASF member on request, without undue delay. +1 I personally agree that we should have the absolute minimum as world-no access, and clear and valid reasons to limit such access. I think that it's something that we could sell to the community. The main hassle is trolls and flamers posting into the moderation forums, so it would be better to limit write access. I'd distinguish private forums where you discuss confidential/sensitive matters from public forums where forum volunteers discuss evolution of policies, future directions, etc., and reach consensus on these topics. For the private forums you have no need to fear trolls or flamers, right? In theory, we could get a troll post to ooo-private, but I've never seen that happen. As for the other forum, the public forum, I see no place for a read-only public forum where volunteers discuss things but the general public cannot post. If they flame or otherwise abuse the forum, then moderate them. That is one of your competencies. I don't think that granting any ASF member read or read/write access to *all* forums would be an issue as long as they broadly respect the rules of the forum. The rules of the forum are subject to PPMC review and approval, just like any other part of the project. So I think it would be very unlikely that there would be a conflict between Apache Member expectations and forum rules. Both of these options are reasonable and therefore could be quickly sold to the community, IMHO. However, this is a very different and easier pitch than the hard line that Rob proposes. It would also be possible for someone to develop (as Rob suggests) a feed from such forums into a DL such as ooo-private. However, this would be a non-trivial bit of custom code development as this isn't standard phpBB functionality and the Logical Data Model for a rich-text Topic/Post paradigm would require a bit of massage to flatten into a plain text email format. We might have resourcing issues here. I think we need this part as well. Remember, Joe was speaking from a Member perspective. I am speaking from a PPMC perspective. There are similar, but non-identical concerns here.
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 13:59 -0400, drew wrote: On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 13:38 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: snip And they need to know that information on the day a new release comes out, so they can answer questions that come on day 1 of that new release. *chuckling* - you know, I hope, that at least 6 (I didn't go count fully) or more of the forum admins/mods are already PPMC members. [EDIT] You might not know that on the forum, the information provided to users about how and where to enter defects was updated within 24 hours Thanks to Zoltan taking the initiative to 'just do it'. of the new Bugzilla going on line - we beat the notices on the ML's and the wiki I think. //drew
Re: [legal] ICLA paragraph 7
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Eike Rathke o...@erack.de wrote: Hi Rob, On Wednesday, 2011-08-31 20:11:01 -0400, Rob Weir wrote: So I think we take this on a case-by-case basis. Personally, I don't have problems with a small patch of a few lines where the author has clearly expressed they are contributing it under ALv2. But a patch of 10,000 lines of code with doubted provenance? I wasn't mentioning doubted provenance. I'm talking about cases where the author clearly states that he owns the copyright and contributes the work under AL2. If someone hands me a check for $10 and has an illegible signature on it, I might let that pass. But if someone gives me a check for $1 I would probably insist on a legible signature. If the illegible signature is the one deposited with the bank, insisting on a legible signature wouldn't help much, to the contrary, you might not get your money. But if the illegible signature was not authorized, then I get no money, plus a fine from my bank when the check is returned as not collectable. Not sure if it is the same in Germany... And from a community development perspective, we should be looking for opportunities to encourage contributors to sign the iCLA and look for ways to vote them in as Committers. If someone is making many patches, especially significant ones, and we have not voted them in as a Committer, then the PPMC is doing something wrong. I'm taking the occasional savvy contributor into consideration who does not want to get involved too deeply with the project and does not want to sign a CLA, yet is willing to contribute his work. You know that these are two different things, yes? Yes. Someone can sign the iCLA but not become a committer and so not have any deeper commitment to participate in the project. Anyhow, if this did come up, I'd try to understand why the person was unwilling to sign the iCLA. Not as a debate or an argument, but to hear their concerns. We might be able to persuade them. But if not, then it is likely that we would need to decline the contribution. There are people who won't sign whatever CA, call it philosophical conception, due to history especially not if it's for OOo. If contributions are welcome only under iCLA you probably won't see them showing up here. I sometimes wonder if we'd have greater acceptance of the iCLA if we called it something else, a name that did not include CLA in it? -Rob Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
For the record, I have ceased my effort to track down someone to administer those lists. I have learned that the specific problem of the annoying echo has been solved and discussion on the effected lists is continuing normally. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:48 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ooofo...@free.fr Subject: RE: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation We didn't know to contact JB or Sophie. We can contact them. Thank you. -Original Message- From: FR web forum [mailto:o...@athena.apache.org] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:36 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation Bonjour Fred ;-) I guess that the answer is somewhere in Oracle... but not even sure. Maybe ask to the ex french community members. Did you contact JB Faure or Sophie Gautier about that?
RE: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
I suspect that one reason that the private discussions Terry mentions are in private is that the administrators there do not want to scare the regular users of the forum, especially since there has been little concrete information over there from here. (And the barrier to coming over here is, in my opinion, quite pronounced.) I think the only mailing list we *have* to have is ooo-dev because it is used where deliberation, concensus, and balloting are developed, and that has to happen on a list to have happened. I am not suggesting we limit ourselves to one list. It is clear from my nosing around on the lists and forums on openoffice.org that, while there is some overlap of participation, folks who use one are generally uninterested in the other and unaware/uninterested in what might be under discussion on the other. In my limited wanderings, I find the separation quite startling. And each subcommunity (because that's what they mainly are, just like a social subculture) currently fears that they are going to be displaced or lost in the move to Apache governance. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 07:46 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:29 AM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 15:15, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust and unapologetic response. I don't want to rehash this again, but this tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache and hand over. What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision to hand over and stand down. I don't see anything recent from you on the forums. Can you send a link to your note and the responses? It is much better to get first hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone else. We tend not to wash our dirty linen in public so these discussions go on on the closed forums. That's one of the reasons why I recommended that PPMC members should request Community Volunteer status to have such access. Of course quite a few DL members and some PPMC members already have Community Volunteer status. I don't know if you've noticed, but they've gone rather quiet of late. //T I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. -Rob
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Hi Dennis, Le 4 sept. 11 à 20:23, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit : For the record, I have ceased my effort to track down someone to administer those lists. I'd like to thank you for your efforts, and your time, to help us. I have learned that the specific problem of the annoying echo has been solved and discussion on the effected lists is continuing normally. Solved, is imho not the right word : it was Yves Dutrieux, who simulated (don't ask me the exact process he used), say unsubscribed the auto-respoonder email. But this is only a hack, and we still cannot fix true spam. While I'm at it, Yves told me the blacklist filter from Sympa seems to be not working. This is my last infomation about the fr mailing lists situation. To be continued, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 18:29 +0100, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:35:05 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. Discussions behind the scene are not proposals; they emerge into one or more consensuses, which are then considered as proposals and a selection made. I doubt there will be much objection to this. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. Such a publicly readable form is the Forum, which is openly accessible; to post to it requires a User to choose a Username and to indicate his OS and version of OOo or OOo fork, 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. These occur on three dedicated channels as I outlined earlier; the offer is there to allow interested Apache personel access to them immediately. A more public (even if still private mechanism) can be worked out, such as that they can be automatically echoed to a monitorong list. Much of the discussion is merely administrative and may increase the load on such monitoring lists. I will echo this posting to the private OOo channels - perhaps we are now getting somewhere? Hello List, Wearing a three cornered hat: Founding member of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, Administrator of the English language forum, member in good standing of the Volunteer Group. First - the current owners of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, the instance of the phpBB softwaree and the content within the attached database is owned by the group of individuals known as the Volunteer Group within the forum. This group currently consists of 75 individuals. This ownership was an integral part of the agreement made between the founding members and management at Sun Micro-Systems. The arrangement was materially no different from a standard hosting contract with a commercial provider, with certain branding considerations required in lieu of cash payments. Second - The OpenOffie.org User Community Forums had no formal relationship whatsoever with the OpenOffice.org Community Council. It had no representation on the council and indeed members of the forum, by virtue of their relationship with the forums, where never offered a vote for any officers of the council. Third - The domain name user.services.openoffice.org was the property of Sun-Microsystems, later transfered to Oracle Corporation and use of said URL was at the discretion of the owner. Fourth - The owners of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums have an explicit right to relocate the services provided at user.services.openoffice.org, along with all content generated by the site, to a new location solely at the discretion of the Volunteer Group. - Taking the hat off. It was my personal hope that this event would also, finally, allow the forums to become an actual part of the main project and ownership transfered from the volunteer group to Apache OpenOffice - still is, but the road to get there I'm afraid is just a tad bumpier now. Respectfully, Drew Jensen
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:40 PM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 18:29 +0100, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:35:05 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. Discussions behind the scene are not proposals; they emerge into one or more consensuses, which are then considered as proposals and a selection made. I doubt there will be much objection to this. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. Such a publicly readable form is the Forum, which is openly accessible; to post to it requires a User to choose a Username and to indicate his OS and version of OOo or OOo fork, 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. These occur on three dedicated channels as I outlined earlier; the offer is there to allow interested Apache personel access to them immediately. A more public (even if still private mechanism) can be worked out, such as that they can be automatically echoed to a monitorong list. Much of the discussion is merely administrative and may increase the load on such monitoring lists. I will echo this posting to the private OOo channels - perhaps we are now getting somewhere? Hello List, Wearing a three cornered hat: Founding member of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, Administrator of the English language forum, member in good standing of the Volunteer Group. First - the current owners of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, the instance of the phpBB softwaree and the content within the attached database is owned by the group of individuals known as the Volunteer Group within the forum. This group currently consists of 75 individuals. This ownership was an integral part of the agreement made between the founding members and management at Sun Micro-Systems. The arrangement was materially no different from a standard hosting contract with a commercial provider, with certain branding considerations required in lieu of cash payments. Sorry, I don't see any basis for your claimed ownership of the content. The forums right now link to a TOU page: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use This includes: c. Other Submissions. (This Section 4.c applies to all Submissions other than source code contributed to a Project, which is governed by the preceding section.) The Host does not claim ownership of Your Submissions. However, in order to fulfill the purposes of this Site, You must give the Host and all Users the right to post, access, evaluate, discuss, and refine Your Submissions. In legalese: You hereby grant to the Host and all Users a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right and license under Your intellectual property rights to reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display and use Your Submissions (in whole or part) and to incorporate them in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, all subject to the obligation to retain any copyright notices included in Your Submissions. All Users, the Host, and their sublicensees are responsible for any modifications they make to the Submissions of others. Host here is defined as Oracle. Second - The OpenOffie.org User Community Forums had no formal relationship whatsoever with the OpenOffice.org Community Council. It had no representation on the council and indeed members of the forum, by virtue of their relationship with the forums, where never offered a vote for any officers of the council. Third - The domain name user.services.openoffice.org was the property of Sun-Microsystems, later transfered to Oracle Corporation and use of said URL was at the discretion of the owner. Fourth - The owners of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums have an explicit right to relocate the services provided at user.services.openoffice.org, along with all content generated by the site, to a new location solely at the discretion of the Volunteer Group. - Taking the hat off. It was my personal hope that this event would also, finally, allow the forums to become an actual part of the main project and ownership
Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
In the interests of reaching an acceptable outcome for everyone, I suggest we not go down the rabbit hole of who legally owns the forums. Just so long as at the end of the road there is no question of ownership once the migration is completed, it makes no sense to pursue this issue further. From: Rob Weir robw...@apache.org To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 2:47 PM Subject: Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:40 PM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 18:29 +0100, Rory O'Farrell wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:35:05 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: This is really easy to resolve: 1) Discussions on evolving forum policies and rules must occur on ooo-dev. These are tantamount to proposals, and they are subject to Apache Way decision making, just like any other part of the project. If I wanted to suggest a different editing policy for the community wiki, or a new moderation policy for ooo-users, I would be slapped down if I raised it on ooo-private. The transparency principle applies equally to the forums. Discussions behind the scene are not proposals; they emerge into one or more consensuses, which are then considered as proposals and a selection made. I doubt there will be much objection to this. 2) Non-confidential, day-to-day operations of the forum should occur in a publicly-readable forum, or on a new public mailing list. I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. Such a publicly readable form is the Forum, which is openly accessible; to post to it requires a User to choose a Username and to indicate his OS and version of OOo or OOo fork, 3) Private discussions on confidential matters, including your grandmother, occur either on ooo-private or on a private forum that echos its posts to ooo-private. Again, I'd let the forum volunteers decide which. These occur on three dedicated channels as I outlined earlier; the offer is there to allow interested Apache personel access to them immediately. A more public (even if still private mechanism) can be worked out, such as that they can be automatically echoed to a monitorong list. Much of the discussion is merely administrative and may increase the load on such monitoring lists. I will echo this posting to the private OOo channels - perhaps we are now getting somewhere? Hello List, Wearing a three cornered hat: Founding member of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, Administrator of the English language forum, member in good standing of the Volunteer Group. First - the current owners of the OpenOffice.org User Community Forums, the instance of the phpBB softwaree and the content within the attached database is owned by the group of individuals known as the Volunteer Group within the forum. This group currently consists of 75 individuals. This ownership was an integral part of the agreement made between the founding members and management at Sun Micro-Systems. The arrangement was materially no different from a standard hosting contract with a commercial provider, with certain branding considerations required in lieu of cash payments. Sorry, I don't see any basis for your claimed ownership of the content. The forums right now link to a TOU page: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use This includes: c. Other Submissions. (This Section 4.c applies to all Submissions other than source code contributed to a Project, which is governed by the preceding section.) The Host does not claim ownership of Your Submissions. However, in order to fulfill the purposes of this Site, You must give the Host and all Users the right to post, access, evaluate, discuss, and refine Your Submissions. In legalese: You hereby grant to the Host and all Users a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right and license under Your intellectual property rights to reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display and use Your Submissions (in whole or part) and to incorporate them in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, all subject to the obligation to retain any copyright notices included in Your Submissions. All Users, the Host, and their sublicensees are responsible for any modifications they make to the Submissions of others. Host here is defined as Oracle. Second - The OpenOffie.org User Community Forums had no formal relationship whatsoever with the OpenOffice.org Community Council. It had no representation on the council and indeed members of the forum, by virtue of their relationship with the forums, where never offered a vote for any officers of the council. Third - The domain name user.services.openoffice.org was the property of Sun-Microsystems, later transfered to Oracle Corporation and use of
Re: [legal] ICLA paragraph 7
Ahh.. found it! The problem is solved in section 5 of the Apache License: ___ 5. Submission of Contributions. Unless You explicitly state otherwise, any Contribution intentionally submitted for inclusion in the Work by You to the Licensor shall be under the terms and conditions of this License, without any additional terms or conditions. Notwithstanding the above, nothing herein shall supersede or modify the terms of any separate license agreement you may have executed with Licensor regarding such Contributions. ___ cheers, Pedro. --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Eike Rathke o...@erack.de wrote: There are people who won't sign whatever CA, call it philosophical conception, due to history especially not if it's for OOo. If contributions are welcome only under iCLA you probably won't see them showing up here. Eike -- PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication. Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: Introduction
Hello Joost-- We can certainly use your valuable insights, and I'm sure you have MANY! On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Joost Andrae joost.and...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, I'd like to introduce myself: My name is Joost Andrae and I live in Hamburg, Germany. I was working on StarOffice/OpenOffice.org full time since I joined StarDivision as QA engineer in 1995. This was the time when StarOffice development started. Since several years I'm working as program manager to coordinate development efforts, to do some presales negotiations, to be contact for partners and doing a lot of other things. Besides I've been involved as QA engineer into agile development (SCRUM) of a web application. My main field of activity was the Calc spreadsheet application, the Math formula editor and the Chart application. Furthermore I was involved into QA/testing of all client server and web based StarOffice development as well as into server based products like the document converter application and the SDK. The crash reporting functionality was also one of my babies which I tested, QA'ed and administered. At the time I mainly worked as QA engineer I also tested font and printing technology used within SO/OOo as well as I did performance and memory tuning measurements of the application. I'm involved into QA (as QA Co-lead), l10n (coordinating QA) and i18n (RTL, CTL) efforts as well as I cared about the download infrastructure (mirror network and Bouncer/MirrorBrain), the download pages and releases of the en-US versions. I join as an individual, not as an Oracle employee. This and all future posts from me do not reflect any company opinion that I am affiliated with. These posts reflect my private opinion only. Kind regards, Joost -- --- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo
Re: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: I figured that, since you'd done the checkouts I would just make a copy of your set (in case you started working on it) and then download them to my computer from orc...@people.apache.org. yes, that was the general idea to anyone who currently has an Apache shell account. The copy was quick. The download was very time consuming, though I did not have to pay attention to it while I was working on other things. It seems that transferring 28,000 files one at a time in a 1.21 GB FTP transfer can be pretty slow. Now that's done, I can go to sleep (it is just midnight here). That was a great idea. If you grab any more, let us know. will do...I actually just modified Dave's script a bit to just do a checkout and nothing else. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 14:16 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area On 09/03/2011 09:49 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: Thanks for doing that, Kay. It never hurts to have a backup, or two or three or ... [;). Well mostly I did this because I wanted to use them for my little project. However, I can do the other areas (Accepted and Incubator) as well. No problem. -Original Message- From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 13:38 To: OOo Apache Subject: [WWW] native lang sites moved to my apache area Just an FYI (and I hope this doesn't fly in the face of proper usage for my apache account), I just did a simple svn checkout on ALL the native-lang web sites this am to /home/kschenk/OOoNLProjects into respective directories corresponding the site abbreviations listed in https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/OpenOffice+Domains We haven't really thoroughly discussed what we want to do with them, but I thought I could do this and play around with the html to MediaWiki markup utilities when the new MW is ready for customers. Plus, I'm getting rather paranoid about the recent DNS problems, and thought I should go on salvage mission. -- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo -- --- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo
Re: [DISCUSS] Announcing Apache ooo Bugzilla on OpenOffice.org Lists
On 03/09/2011 FR web forum wrote: [TJ Frazier] old Bugzilla is moaning in red letters that it is now read-only, and doesn't have a forwarding URL. Somebody with admin privileges at OO.o should fix that. +1 Definitely. The I do not have a new URL for the RW Bugzilla yet! warning leaves users totally wondering what's going on, and this should be fixed with the new URL as soon as possible. Is this a final address? What's happen with old URL when Oracle will halted its server? That will be better to have an automatic redirection. Again, fully agree. There are thousands of issue links anywhere in wikis, mailing lists and forum, and there is no point in preserving IDs if links are not. But I see that https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Bugtracking+migration correctly considers preserving links a requirement. Regards, Andrea.
What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache OpenOffice.org project
I'm putting aside for sake of this note the alternate approach, suggested by some, of allowing the support Forums to operate independently outside of Apache. I'm merely talking about what would make the forums into a well-integrated part of the project, in terms of decision making, accountability, branding, etc. I'm not talking about technical integration, since that appears to be the easier topic., and one that Apache Infra and Terry are already working on. If the Forums are to be well-integrated into the project, I think we need: == PPMC Oversite and Approval of Forum Policies == Remember, the Forum volunteers -- 75 of them -- are not all committers or PPMC members. Very few of them are. Very few of of them are following this ooo-dev list. Obviously we should give great deference to the real-world experience of current Forum volunteers, but we also need to ensure that the Forum works well with project and Apache policies as well. 1) The Terms of Use and other policy documents used by the Forum should be reviewed and approved by the PPMC, and for the former, also by Apache legal. 2) We need to develop a privacy policy for the Forums, also to be reviewed by the PPMC and Apache legal 3) Changes to Forum policies, TOU and privacy policy would require a proposal on ooo-dev, and discussion and consensus reached there. It is possible that preliminary public discussions could occur in other places first, such as on the Forums themselves. But the project's official discussions and decisions are made on ooo-dev.In other words, if it didn't happen on the project's main list (ooo-dev), it didn't happen. 4) We need the Forum website to conform to Apache branding requirements, including the podling-specific requirements ==Approval of Forum roles== My understanding is that forums have essentially three roles: a) Users b) Moderators, who delete, edit and move all posts, ban users, etc. c) Admins who can also create new forums and assign moderator rights 5) Users require no special treatment. They are like subscribers to a users list. 6) Being listed as an admin or moderator on a public-facing Apache website suggests endorsement by the project, and aside from any enhanced Forum capabilities enhances your ability to keep order on the Forums. In other words, it is the star that makes the sheriff, not the gun. But this endorsement, to be meaningful, should be made authentic. So Admins and Moderators should be approved by the PPMC. This kind of routine approval is given all the time for those who want to be list moderators. I see no reason why we cannot, initially at least, simply receive a list of current volunteers to ooo-private and approve them all. 7) Future grants of admin/moderator rights would require a proposal to ooo-dev seeking lazy consensus. Such a proposal could originate from a forum volunteer or could originate from anyone on ooo-dev. This is no different than someone asking to be a moderator for a mailing list. 8) Any project committer, on request, will be made a forum admin or moderator. This is how it works with every other project resource -- mailing lists, source code, website, etc. Committers have rights to pretty much everything on the project. We trust our committers. We don't segregate the project into exclusive zones of ownership. ==Transparency== 9) We need all private forum discussions to be echoed to a log or mailing list where PPMC and Apache Members can view them. One way of doing this is to echo posts to ooo-private. Another way is to periodically commit logs to the PPMC's private directory. There may be other ways as well. 10) The use of private forums must be used for only discussions of specific moderation cases. It must not be used for discussion of routine board operations. ==Integration into the larger AOOo community== Although the forum volunteers appear to have been previously isolated, not involved in larger project discussions and decision making, this is not optimal for providing support, and it is not optimal for the project overall. We need to encourage cross-pollination and sharing of information. Forums operating in isolation from the rest of the project will limit our future success. 11) One admin or moderator from each of the 10 language-specific boards should be signed up on the ooo-dev list and ooo-users list. This could also be done by requiring that Forum Admins also be Committers, but that is not something we are starting with, though it could be an eventual goal. 12) We should also encourage existing committers to participate directly in answering questions on the support forum. It is valuable to see how ordinary users use the product and the difficulties they encounter. It puts our coding decisions in perspective. This is a two-way street. It is not just to encourage support volunteers to be more aware of other parts of the project, but also to make other parts of the project more involved with support, or at least
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On 4 September 2011 22:37, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: On 04/09/11 22:13, Dave Fisher wrote: On Sep 4, 2011, at 11:13 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Terry Ellisonte...@ellisons.org.uk ... If several members of the PPMC are participating as forum volunteers and all the conversations in these private lists are immutable and available to the whole PPMC and Apache Members why would we need a feed to ooo-private? This really isn't any different from the PPMC trusting a small number of ML moderators. One specific technical point: the content of no forums or posts is immutable. Originators and moderators can change their content or even withdraw it by deleting the post. We do this regularly with spam. No forum models that I am familiar with embeds versioning. One of the reasons for allowing Member level access to PMC lists is to ensure that there is some way to escalate a dispute to an independent third party. This happens very rarely, but when it does it really is not fun for the people involved, as you can imagine. One other reason (which fortunately is even rarer) is that we sometimes need to provide materials as part of some court case or other. IN these circumstances lawyers spend a long time ensuring that no unnecessary information is shared and that private information is provided with the appropriate confidences. Requiring those people to trawl logs to ensure no edits have been made in private discussions is adding unnecessary work that, I hope, can be avoided. Would it be possible/make sense to provide a read-only archive of the private forums in the private PMC list? I'm not saying discussion should necessarily move to that list (although I think this should be the end goal, but lets take baby steps and keep options open). This approach would have the added benefit of providing PPMC oversight on the private discussions. I'm not concerned about edits in public posts, particularly with the existing practice of marking such posts as edited. Ross -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: Apache OOo Bugzilla has NL Projects and Native Language Reports
On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.orgwrote: Below is the notice that I am providing (to English Language pages only), at OpenOffice.org lists, forums, and also ooo-users@i.a.o. PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANT is that, if you select Search and view the Simple Search tab, notice that the Product: Pull-Down includes all of the NL projects. If you use Product zh and just click search, you will see 8 bugs and the use of Native language subjects and texts. It's going to be fun [;). - Dennis I'm assuming at some point -- when you feel we're ready -- that a link to the new issue tracker will be put on our current incubator web site? http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 17:45 To: us...@openoffice.org Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] OO.o Bugzilla Now Supported at Apache SUMMARY 1. The OpenOffice.org Bugzilla Issue Tracker at http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/ is now Read-Only. New bugs cannot be entered. Existing issues can be reviewed. Existing issues cannot be modified or updated. 2. The complete Buzilla Issue Tracker is now move to the Apache OOo Bugzilla http://issues.apache.org/ooo/. It is publicly readable. Anyone can request a new account in order to be able to report issues. 3. If you ALREADY HAVE AN ACCOUNT on the OpenOffice.org Bugzilla, you can reactivate your account at the Apache OOo Bugzilla. REACTIVATING YOUR ACCOUNT 4. Current passwords were de-activated in the transfer of the Issue Tracker repository to Apache. If you had an account with Login ID: id, that account still exists with Login ID: id@openoffice.org. If you had a Login ID: e-mail that account still exists. 5. To reactivate your account, go to the http://issues.apache.org/ooo/ web page. 6. In the banner at the top of the page, click Forgot Password. 7. In the new banner, enter your Login e-mail Id at the Login: prompt. If you used an e-mail address before, enter it now. If you used an user-name, user before, now enter user@openoffice.org. (Replace user with the actual user-name.) 8. Click Reset Password 9. If the e-mail is for a known account, a password reset message will be sent to that e-mail address. When it arrives, follow the instructions in that message and specify a new password. 10. Then Log In with the same e-mail to use the issue tracker to do more than look. You can now use the Preferences link on the page banners to make other adjustments. WHY REACTIVATE THIS WAY? 10. When your account is reactivated, all bug reports in which you are a contributor will have the link from your User ID restored. You will now receive appropriate notifications. You can amend those issues by the same User ID. 11. In addition, when you are logged in, the My Bugs link at the top and bottom bars of pages will be available. PLEASE DO THIS FIRST 12. Please use the My Bugs list to verify that any issues you reported previously have been preserved correctly. 13. If there is a problem in any of the bug reports, the best way to let the Apache OOo Project know is to send a message to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org. Please include the Issue Number and any other important details in your message. If there is a problem with the functioning of the Apache OOo Bugzilla itself, you can also use the bugzilla-admin email address given in the bottom-of-page banner. - Dennis -- --- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo
RE: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
They can move and take everything with them but the hardware, the domain name, and the trademark. That's actually quite a lot. I don't have it much better with the hosting service that now hosts my public goodies. (I have the domain name and the trademark. I also have current backups of everything and it is easy to move - that's why I use static pages.) Of course, I have a lease on the domain name. It is mine only within that limitation. Not that there is not a separation cost and serious disruption. But do we need to mention this at all? Normally, when someone wants me on their hardware and software, and to be my domain-name holder, I receive a nice offer, not an offer I can't refuse. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 11:24 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers [ ... ] If you do not own the hardware, the domain name and the trademark, then you are operating at the pleasure of those who do own these things. That might feel like autonomy, but that is illusory. If you want to see what autonomy looks like, look at http://www.oooforum.org/ The thing to gain some appreciation of is that the unit of decision making at Apache is the project. There is a single group of project committers and a single (P)PMC. No one owns any service within the project. No one has exclusive freedom of action. No one can act on their own without risk of a veto. We don't fragment and compartmentalize the project into autonomous functions that are immune for discussion, consensus building, vetos and votes from other project members. [ ... ]
RE: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
All of this mention and talking about moderators has raised a puzzle in my mind. We have moderation on all of our lists. What is the oversight on moderator actions? - Dennis PS: Hypothetical slippery-slope arguments don't work. It is mutual in all of those categories what conditions we place on contributions and whether the contributor accepts them. We could let the OpenOffice.org forums go fish (actually, we can't stop them). But is it in the Apache OOo Podling's collective interest for that to happen? -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 10:38 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Terry Ellison te...@ellisons.org.uk wrote: [ ... ] -0.75 yes we should put this to the community, but this is not how they operate today. I do know that the majority of the big hitters are really unhappy with this. Please realise that if you force this one, you will probably have a very obedient forum, but one with nobody answering any Qs -- or some revolt where they take their service en-mass elsewhere. You can see what would if support volunteers demand to work the way they have always worked, not integrating into the Apache project, and if translators demanded the same, and then technical writers demanded the same? What then? Developers demanding to work in Mercurial under LGPL? In any case, could you maybe float a counter proposal? Something --anything -- that acknowledges that transparency is important, something that makes some effort to meet us half way? Something more than your current proposal which appears to be Thanks for the hardware, Apache. Now leave us alone. Policy discussions are one matter, but moderation must be the business of the moderators. They have made it quite clear in the past that they really don't want to have these discussions in public view. Again we can only sound them out. The proposal I made had moderation decisions -- the truly confidential parts -- be done in a private forum echoed to ooo-private. So it would not be in public view. See above, #3, in case you missed it. -Rob
RE: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Well, there are no mentors to tell them to put it on a public Forum. It is not an Apache undertaking yet. I admire them for keeping this discussion off of the general boards because it would doubtless disturb those they serve as much as it disturbs people who watch us conduct ourselves here. I don't suggest we change, *here*, because the rules are plain enough for anyone who cares to know what they are. I have never been an active member on any public-facing forum system that did not have a structure such as that which has been described to us. I had not remarked on it until now that there are questions about it. I also only knew about it when I was granted administration privileges myself, sort of like being invited to be a committer here [;). - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 08:52 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 10:45:31 -0400 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. As far as I recollect, the private discussions referred to were those concerned with moderation decisions, which decisions were reviewed by the volunteers on a private channel on the Forum. Your information is incomplete then. Earlier in the thread Terry said that there were ongoing discussions in the private forum that paralleled this discussion. I assume you are aware of that thread? There are three private channels open to me on the http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ as a Volunteer - Delete Topics, which is a holding channel to permit undeleting of a posting (held for three days), EN Forum issues and Server - Site Governance. In these two latter channels suggestions or queries were channeled to Terry concerning code alteration and other technical matters, and governance queries were raised, as, for example, review of suspicious activity of a given poster, or reconsideration of the actions of a moderator. All other discussions take place in public. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
RE: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
As far as I can tell and there are up to three NL forums that require special karma to visit, as TerryE has already explained. At least one of them is different for each language group. That is the Forum Issues forum that is per language. The title on the English Forums is EN-Forum Issues: A place for us to cover issues about the forum overall. Another forum consists of deleted posts. It is kind of a quarantine for deleted posts and TerryE already described what happens there. I assume this is per language also, since you need to understand the language to review deleted posts. This is a common situation in forums that I have belonged to. I have had enough karma on other forum sites to see how this works (though my brief impression is that the OO.o Forums are superior in how they are handled). There is another English Admin Forum entitled Server-Site Governance, at least on the English-language Forum. There might be only one of these: the brief description is User Services Forums (NL Administrators and Moderators). I see that there is a vote occurring on that last forum this very minute to make that last forum visible to the public but read only. It strikes me that the folks there are friendly, wary of outsiders, and apprehensive about the Apache situation and the future of the forums as they know them. This is on the general forums too, but I am grateful that a lot of that among the administrators and moderators they have been worrying privately. My sense is that everyone there, at all levels, want the openoffice.org site and communities to thrive. Disruption is hard on everyone. Generosity is called for. [An interesting suggestion there: That PPMC folk come over, register on the site, and observe all we want.] We could probably find out more about this by asking them. Over there. Just as Apache folk visited the LibreOffice lists when the incubator was being proposed, and after as incubation was approved and there were still discussions over there that was worthwhile for Apache folk to contribute to. (Of course, many of us on ooo-dev and the PPMC also hang out on LibreOffice and TDF lists and are also developers there. I mean folks who have senior positions with Apache.) - Dennis, being reminded that computing is an empirical science, and so is community building -Original Message- From: Christian Grobmeier [mailto:grobme...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 08:07 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums If behavior discussions are going to occur at all, it's probably better that they happen in public rather than there be the feeling of a secret faceless committee to which users can neither respond nor appeal. The latter can lead to discontent. Exactly. And where do users go to complain about moderators? ooo-dev@ ;-) ooo-private@ [ ... ] I think a jolt of transparency will do us much good. We need to learn to collaborate well with each other openly. We need to be moderate in moderation. If we think we need 30 private moderation forums and 30 moderators in order to do user support, then that is a warning sign crying out that we're doing the wrong thing. I think 30 are really to much. But one might be OK. One question: how much moderation is actually happening? And why? Is it really users behavior? In fact I can't imagine 30 boards are necessary for only keeping trolls out. If possible, some stats would be fine to have a better understanding of the issue. Like I asked before, if we had zero private moderator forums, what bad thing would happen? Why can we replace secret tribunals with open, peer pressure and leadership by example? Really, is the situation so worse that secret tribunals is a matching term? (I really don't know, its not a rethoric question). I am all for openess don't get me wrong. The other mail today from Terry showed me there something strange going on. People simply want to use the tools they have used before. They want to speak their language. I think this should be possible. Reducing the tribunal factor to a minimum is a very good thing. I just don't want to read of some moderators discussing my grandmoms behavior in public. -Rob Don -- http://www.grobmeier.de
RE: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Joe, please correct me if I am misunderstanding this: I am assuming that Joe is speaking as an Apache Software Foundation Member. It is a requirement that all lists be accessible to ASF Members and I believe they all are, even the archives of private ones. I keep hearing that the requirement on governance and ability to have complete oversight are those of the Foundation. A [P]PMC has oversight responsibilities over its own functions, but that is a delegated responsibility (and I suppose why a PMC always has an ASF Member (VP?) as its Chair.) If Joe says this is sufficient to satisfy the Foundation's responsibility for activities under its auspices, we should stick to that as sufficient for the PPMC. We can worry about heightened ceremony and formality when we see that a little more is called for. Rob, I believe TerryE's offer applies to all PPMC members and mentors and I'm betting that any ASF Member would be equally welcome. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 11:06 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: Being a member-based organization the ASF requires that all foundation activities be subject to member scrutiny (with only a handful of operational exceptions). I would be perfectly satisfied if the private forums are fully archived and made available to any ASF member on request, without undue delay. And to all PPMC members as well. -Rob From: Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers On Sep 4, 2011 3:45 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I don't think discussions about how the project is run is something that we should be doing in private. Discussing such matters, even if strong opinions are raised, is the essence of transparency. Remember, controversial is not the same as confidential. In Apache projects we discuss non-confidential matters openly. ... unless they are on the PPMC private list, when that royal we no longer includes everyone here. I believe Terry and others are saying that the (independent) forum community has a similar approach, with a private forum for sensitive matters. I also believe that in the interests of that very transparency you and others are invited to participate in that place as a transitional activity. What exactly is the problem here? S.
RE: Apache OOo Bugzilla has NL Projects and Native Language Reports
I think we are beyond ready. I'm not sure why my feeling matters. We are also beyond ready for fixing the notice on the OpenOffice.org web site. There are also a number of web pages that describe creating Issues and finding them need to be updated on OpenOffice.org web. But I am not one who has the means to do anything on the OpenOffice.org web site. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 15:56 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; orc...@apache.org Subject: Re: Apache OOo Bugzilla has NL Projects and Native Language Reports On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: Below is the notice that I am providing (to English Language pages only), at OpenOffice.org lists, forums, and also ooo-users@i.a.o. PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANT is that, if you select Search and view the Simple Search tab, notice that the Product: Pull-Down includes all of the NL projects. If you use Product zh and just click search, you will see 8 bugs and the use of Native language subjects and texts. It's going to be fun [;). - Dennis I'm assuming at some point -- when you feel we're ready -- that a link to the new issue tracker will be put on our current incubator web site? http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 17:45 To: us...@openoffice.org Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] OO.o Bugzilla Now Supported at Apache SUMMARY 1. The OpenOffice.org Bugzilla Issue Tracker at http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/ is now Read-Only. New bugs cannot be entered. Existing issues can be reviewed. Existing issues cannot be modified or updated. 2. The complete Buzilla Issue Tracker is now move to the Apache OOo Bugzilla http://issues.apache.org/ooo/. It is publicly readable. Anyone can request a new account in order to be able to report issues. 3. If you ALREADY HAVE AN ACCOUNT on the OpenOffice.org Bugzilla, you can reactivate your account at the Apache OOo Bugzilla. REACTIVATING YOUR ACCOUNT 4. Current passwords were de-activated in the transfer of the Issue Tracker repository to Apache. If you had an account with Login ID: id, that account still exists with Login ID: id@openoffice.org. If you had a Login ID: e-mail that account still exists. 5. To reactivate your account, go to the http://issues.apache.org/ooo/ web page. 6. In the banner at the top of the page, click Forgot Password. 7. In the new banner, enter your Login e-mail Id at the Login: prompt. If you used an e-mail address before, enter it now. If you used an user-name, user before, now enter user@openoffice.org. (Replace user with the actual user-name.) 8. Click Reset Password 9. If the e-mail is for a known account, a password reset message will be sent to that e-mail address. When it arrives, follow the instructions in that message and specify a new password. 10. Then Log In with the same e-mail to use the issue tracker to do more than look. You can now use the Preferences link on the page banners to make other adjustments. WHY REACTIVATE THIS WAY? 10. When your account is reactivated, all bug reports in which you are a contributor will have the link from your User ID restored. You will now receive appropriate notifications. You can amend those issues by the same User ID. 11. In addition, when you are logged in, the My Bugs link at the top and bottom bars of pages will be available. PLEASE DO THIS FIRST 12. Please use the My Bugs list to verify that any issues you reported previously have been preserved correctly. 13. If there is a problem in any of the bug reports, the best way to let the Apache OOo Project know is to send a message to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org. Please include the Issue Number and any other important details in your message. If there is a problem with the functioning of the Apache OOo Bugzilla itself, you can also use the bugzilla-admin email address given in the bottom-of-page banner. - Dennis -- --- MzK Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. -- Victor Hugo
RE: Apache OOo Bugzilla has NL Projects and Native Language Reports
I am looking at Chinese text in the zh Project on Bugzilla. Really. So how is that not possible? And do we even want it to be? - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@openoffice.org] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 14:13 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Apache OOo Bugzilla has NL Projects and Native Language Reports Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANT is that, if you select Search and view the Simple Search tab, notice that the Product: Pull-Down includes all of the NL projects. If you use Product zh and just click search, you will see 8 bugs and the use of Native language subjects and texts. Yes, but this is an often misunderstood feature: its proper usage is for issues that are internal to a N-L project (e.g., a typo on the it.openoffice.org website); it should not be used for reporting a translation error in the OpenOffice.org interface (l10n is the component to use in that case) or for reporting a bug in a language other than English (that is just not possible: bugs must be reported in English and bug reports in different languages are usually marked invalid and reposted in English if relevant). Regards, Andrea.
Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: snip I don't know that *anyone* has actually invited them. They have been told what the changes are, as in mailing list messages and the sudden transfer of Bugzilla. Actually, there were offline discussions between me and the forum admins back in June. They approached me, asking how to be part of the Apache project. I invited them to join. We had a thread where I explained how Apache projects worked. Every single one of the Forum guys who are now claiming offense were on that thread. I wrote to them a that time, in response to their inquiry on joining Apache: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:27 PM Subject Re: OpenOffice.org users forum present and future , I'm not yet an expert in how Apache works, but I tink there needs to be some chain of responsibility from the moderators to the Apache Software Foundation Board, if this is going to be hosted on Apache hardware, at an Apache-owned domain. This is necessary to ensure that Apache can ensure that the web site conforms to various national laws, from privacy policy, to responding to copyright take-down notices (in the US), to responding to requests from law enforcement, to give the moderators a way to escalate any difficulties, etc. Obviously these are very very rare, and may never occur, but my guess is Apache will want to ensure that they have control from the Board. Does that make sense? If you want to use Apache infrastructure then you need to become part of the project's meritocracy See: http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy. We'll want to map out how your existing roles fit into the Apache roles: PMC Member == controls the project, approves releases, nominates committers, etc. Committers == members who have made sustained contributions to the project. Developers == those who contribute to the project Users == those who use the product See here for more details: http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles The Apache Board appoints the Chair of a project's Project Management Committee (or PMC). The Chair is an Apache Vice President and is responsible to the Board. The committers in the project elect their PMC members. The PMC does the main planning for the project. The existing committers elect new committers from developers on the project who have done consistently good work. This includes coders, but also contributors in other ways, such as forum admins. So I think this works best if all forum moderators are also developers or maybe committters The admin role could also be a committer. And someone who wants to take responsibility for the overall user forums, from a planning perspective, and maybe associated pieces like the wiki and the mailing lists, should probably be a PMC member. Initially, we would just accept the current status quo (assuming that is working well) and propose the existing moderators and admins. But in the future, as vacancies occur, I'd expect that we'd fill them per Apache process, e.g., someone is nominated on the Apache project list and we vote. But this all starts with figuring out how your roles fit into an Apache style meritocracy. Would something like the above be a problem? All OOo volunteers will be going through a similar process, of mapping their roles into the Apache system. This is very easy for programmers and testers and documentation writers, since all projects have those roles. But with user forum admins, I think this is something new for Apache. Regards, -Rob The response I received at that time was positive, a stated intent to work within the ASF meritocracy. I have no idea why they are backtracking now on that. I'm not sure that they know they can decline our offer, also. That probably looks suicidal. I don't believe we do have the right to the forums if they do not consent. Unfortunately, we haven't approached them as folks who have a say in the matter and that we want to be welcome. Consent? We have just as much rights to the forums as we have the the wikis or the mailing list archives. It is not an exclusive right, but certainly we have what is needed to host the forums. If a particular author objects, we could remove their content if we wanted to. But that is true regardless of whether the existing forum volunteers come to Apache. In other words, even if they do come to Apache, someone could object to their content being hosted and we would probably take it down. -Rob - Dennis -Original Message- From: Daniel Shahaf [mailto:d...@daniel.shahaf.name] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 10:15 To: Terry Ellison Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; Rob Weir Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers Terry Ellison wrote on Sun, Sep 04, 2011 at 18:09:15 +0100: On 04/09/11 16:49, Rob Weir wrote: ... we are not discussing project operations on
Re: Set up of ooo-ja-gene...@incubator.apache.org
Hi Rob and all, On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I can help with your questions on the process. Thanks. dev-br @ spamassassin.apache.org (but only 1 post in the last 2208 days) dev-de @ spamassassin.apache.org (not very active, only 47 posts in 121 days) users-de @ httpd.apache.org (a more active list, 326 subscribers) I see. Let us take dev-ja @ incubator.apache.org If you participate in English on the ooo-dev list, even with limited English skills (but I think your English is excellent!) then you get all of this help. Yes. I understand this. dev-ja @ incubator.apache.org will accommodate people who do not read English. How would this work on the Japanese list? Would you continue to participate in both lists and relay questions? Yes. I will relay questions. :) Or I will encourage them (in Japanese) to learn English and post their questions and answers and opinions in English to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org and/or ooo-us...@incubator.apache.org. Thanks. khirano
Re: Set up of ooo-ja-gene...@incubator.apache.org
O sorry my mistake ;) On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Kazunari Hirano khir...@gmail.com wrote: I see. Let us take dev-ja @ incubator.apache.org I meant ooo-dev-ja @ incubator.apache.org :) Thanks, khirano
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Le 4 sept. 11 à 17:58, Simon Phipps a écrit : On Sep 4, 2011 7:04 AM, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Stefan is Simon Phipps friend in the background. Sophie belongs to Louis's friends list. What I don't know is about Louis and TDF in the background. Maybe you see better why everything is blocked now ? No, I'm not clear on your accusation. That's no problem for me to explain again : a lot of people are completely lost, and confused in this mailing list. And people who mostly prefer code, would like to see more code :) So I added simple information: Mr X is in Team A, and Mr Y one is in Team B. C is friend of D, and so on. I tried to limit what I wrote to facts, say to a Mathematical description, but no statement, really. I know I'm not native speaker, and I'm sorry if I was not enough precise for your taste. I'll add further information : you represent TDF. Another fact is that TDF has been created without inform the OpenOffice.org Community, including Project Leads. More precisely, some people suddenly declared they created it. This divided the Project Leads, created a lot of confusion, and a lot of people no longer understand what happens. Now, I see TDF proposes a Board of Director. This means TDF has a pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be controled by several Companies, who will decide. The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work on what TDF owns. As you can see, there are no personal statement, just facts. But since you're including me in it, Yes, but is was a simple description, a reminder for people who no longer understand why you are there. You are there mostly for lobbying (OpenOffice.org trademark), to defend a group of Companies who aims to control Free Software, in a Governance or some close word sense. Here, are skilled people, who would like to share the knowledge, but without being controled by any company, and driven by meritocraty : they are there just because they want to share, including with LibreOffice, obviously. Those people are Apache OpenOffice.org Regards, Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 15:19, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Now, I see TDF proposes a Board of Director. This means TDF has a pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be controled by several Companies, who will decide. The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work on what TDF owns. Eric, Apache has a Board of Directors, too. http://www.apache.org/foundation/ That is a legal requirement for a Foundation. --Jean
Re: Re : [Discuss] Lost in translation
Hi Jean, Le 5 sept. 11 à 07:32, Jean Weber a écrit : On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 15:19, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Now, I see TDF proposes a Board of Director. This means TDF has a pyramidal structure (read : The Cathedral and the Bazaar), will be controled by several Companies, who will decide. The simple contributor will decide nothing, but is welcome to work on what TDF owns. Eric, Apache has a Board of Directors, too. http://www.apache.org/foundation/ Thanks a lot for the information, I completely missed :/ That is a legal requirement for a Foundation. This is a very bad news for me (personal statement), and I'll probably stop there. Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Education Project: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
