Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Aldon, The source codes are hosted mostly on the GForge; some resources I could dig up was these: . The DTL Module - http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ . OpenCurrency, was the SampleMoneyModule - http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/opencurrency/ . I believe the OpenSimWi contains a basic monetary system backend - http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/opensimwi/ . The Money page on the wiki - http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money (This page should have a fat disclaimer saying Does not represent current opensim stance - content should move to discussion, but it contains some good points) Aloas, when it comes to documentation, it's sorely lacking. Hope you can get your effort started. Best regards, /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Aldon Hynes Sent: den 8 juli 2009 17:03 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Stefan, et al., I'm glad you think this is a good idea. I'm heading on vacation for a couple weeks leaving this weekend, so I'll be hard to reach. However, if we can get the project up and going before I go, that would be great. Questions I have: Who wrote and/or has copies of the SampleMoney and OpenCurrency code? Who has any design documents are would be willing to create some design documents? If you want to help, please contact me directly. I can set up a Wiki on one of my hosting accounts and try to get the ball rolling, but I'll need help. Aldon -Original Message- So, for any of you that are really interested in OpenSimCurrency, what do you say to starting a parallel project that provides a third party currency framework that can run in OpenSim? Go for it. Host it on the forge, create a wiki for it. Can't wait to see the first release. Also, I believe there is still an Freenode IRC channel called #opensim-money. /Stefan ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon, I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world currency). Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have virtual currencies and things such as virtual money and Godfather points in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other various games. Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of virtual currency or points system. There is no argument concerning virtual currency as being unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability. I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce. First off, the points in the game, are nothing more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through gifting) before on other online games, and it's really no big deal. Tech support normally makes things right. But this is not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a money making issue. There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that may or may not want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money making opportunity). So I can understand their rage in the concept of someone creating an OpenCurrency project, because they may feel that it's a loss of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it away for free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency system is vital to OpenSim's success. I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World development, just as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have a virtual world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet without any form of e-commerce. I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the way back to 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the ground up, so that it could handle a virtual points system would seem to make sense. You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers, as PayPal already does much of that for you. It would seem that just a simple module that would work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice. Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system. Whether you choose to call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars, whatever the case... it's still points. It's NOT real money, it's NOT real cash, it's just points. It would seem to make sense to create a separate OpenCurrency project as Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY important piece of the OpenSim project. Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any form of points systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would be similar to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse. I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom (for educational purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as Linden's) where people come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage in trading, etc. some form of points or commerce system is critical. If Core doesn't want to take part in the project (because they have their own vested interests in their own personal ventures) then it may be in the best interests of the Open Source Community to start a separate Open Source OpenCurrency project, that is a separate entity from Core, and it seems completely stupid to have to branch off and create a separate fork, but if this is what the Core Devs want is a separate fork, then so be it. RealXtend has had to fork, and it seems to hurt the OpenSource project as a whole, because the forks eventually run independently of one another. It would seem to make more sense to just make the OpenCurrency project a part of OpenSim core (as a module) that can easily be enabled/disabled by just installing the module, and enabling/disabling a flag in the OpenSim.ini configuration file. Something that will just allow the transfer of points between users in the virtual world. I believe something as simple as OS$ (open sim points, or open sim virtual dollars) would be sufficient, similar to Linden's implementation. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. Was not aware of that, but that's very good to know. It would be good to create a separate OpenCurrency project, and if it's something that the core OpenSim developers don't wish to take part in, then maybe it can be something that can be developed and added to the RealXtend module and the RealXtend crew has done a fine job of adding additional features, but either way we should be able to create a separate OpenCurrency project independent of the OpenSim project, and possibly even work hand in hand with the RealXtend developers, as a virtual currency and/or virtual point system really would be crucial in online gaming, and virtual social networks (the ability to exchange transfer points, and objects/items between users). It would seem that Core Dev are being very narrow
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
I agree, if core dev doesn't want it a part of core... that's their choice, but as long as we can create a separate OpenCurrency module and add whatever hooks are necessary to core, that should suffice. This way we can always improve upon the OpenCurrency module (add PayPal API gateway, etc.). But I believe first and foremost, to just start by using the OpenCurrency module as a points system (OS$) as just a virtual points system (during Alpha and early Beta testing). Then later we can always add PayPal support (to purchase virtual points) similar to what Zynga does in their online games. You can buy Godfather points, and most online games have some form of virtual points system. Agree a points system would be very good. Most games have points of some kind, so I dont think that infinges anything. I agree as well. I think a points system is a great idea, and I think this is the main point that Jason, Colin, Rock and Aldon were trying to make. A virtual points system is key to online gaming, and the virtual world experience. Leaving this key element out of the equation makes no sense at all. The ability to add moving vehicles, attack and damage points, as well as health points, and a virtual currency points system of some sort is what makes online gaming fun. If you could start out with 50 virtual points, and buy a baseball bat for 20 pts, and then hit garbage cans (causing virtual damage) it would make the virtual experience more realistic and interesting/fun. Personally I love what the RealXtend crew is doing, and their ideology of seeing RealXtend evolve into a virtual gaming platform is an incredible idea (and incredible vision). An open source virtual gaming platform that developers can easily create vehicles for, with a good physics engine, and the ability to drive/fly/sail vehicles between regions seamlessly, and the ability to use weapons (baseball bats, guns, cars, etc.) would ultimately combine the virtual social networking platform with the interactive gaming world, and that is something worth getting excited about. Content developers (such as Zynga or Aldmino) or some of the others can design content for virtual gaming worlds, and I believe OpenSim could be very successful if they headed in this direction. If not, then it'll just be another 3D chatroom, and it will probably go the way of the dust (come and go) like the countless others before it. What made SL different was the points aspect, and the ability to create vehicles, and it gave people hope of what might be to come. I think designing a virtual platform (from the ground up) like OpenSim is doing, to be a great opportunity for online virtual gaming platforms. It really makes no sense at all to leave out a points or karma system. I'd really love to see a health, stamina, attack, defense, energy and points/currency system added. This way objects could have attack and defense values. Like a baseball bat could have an attack value of 2, and a defense value of 2. A Humvee could have an attack value of 22 and a defense of 25. A canon could have an attack value of 25 and a defense of 3. A machine gun might have an attack value of 16 and a defense of 10. A pistol may have an attack value of 5 and a defense of 7. Then users could strike vehicles (and cause damage) or strike objects (such a Coke machine, or garbage can). Thus adding another layer (and dimension) of gameplay to the OpenSim environment (making OpenSim an Open Gaming Platform) for content developers. I really believe in what the RealXtend crew is doing, in trying to create an OpenSource Gaming Platform (built upon the OS core). I just think a points/karma system is an integral part of an interactive virtual environment. On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Melvin Carvalho melvincarva...@gmail.comwrote: Agree a points system would be very good. Most games have points of some kind, so I dont think that infinges anything. Whether to make it part of the core or not is completely at the discretion of the development team. On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Mark Malewskimark.malew...@gmail.com wrote: Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon, I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world currency). Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have virtual currencies and things such as virtual money and Godfather points in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other various games. Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of virtual currency or points system. There is no argument concerning virtual currency as being unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability. I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce. First off, the points in the game, are nothing more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through gifting) before on
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Mark, Just a couple of corrections: I have heard no 'rage' from any core dev over the concept of an OpenCurrency project. On the contrary, that is what we want to see happen, preferably several currency projects targeting different usage models and catering for differing audiences. Whether or not currency management hosted by the core repository is pivotal for the success of OpenSim or not is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, if that would be the case, that would be a sad prospect for OpenSim indeed. Managing an economic points system is no more central to OpenSim than it is for the Apache web server. It might be pivotal for certain implementations based on OpenSim, like it would be for certain e-commerce sites running on Apache, but not for OpenSim itself. The OpenSim core devs has repeatedly stated that we are willing to add whatever reasonable hooks any currency module would reasonably need into the core. Please open mantis issues and attach your patches, and we'll review them like any other patch. I fail to see the need to 'fork' the entire code base over this kind of issue. The Rex team forked before the OpenSim core were even aware of them. The issue was whether to re-incorporate their codebase into core, something that was decided against in the end. From what I can see, both projects have continued to run in parallel just fine, each free to pursue their specific development goals. There has been mailings before pointing to existing currency module code bases. A friendly suggestion though; it's probably not the best way to start your fledgling currency project passing remarks discrediting core devs and their motifs. Best regards, /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Mark Malewski Sent: den 21 juli 2009 12:18 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon, I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world currency). Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have virtual currencies and things such as virtual money and Godfather points in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other various games. Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of virtual currency or points system. There is no argument concerning virtual currency as being unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability. I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce. First off, the points in the game, are nothing more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through gifting) before on other online games, and it's really no big deal. Tech support normally makes things right. But this is not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a money making issue. There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that may or may not want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money making opportunity). So I can understand their rage in the concept of someone creating an OpenCurrency project, because they may feel that it's a loss of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it away for free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency system is vital to OpenSim's success. I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World development, just as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have a virtual world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet without any form of e-commerce. I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the way back to 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the ground up, so that it could handle a virtual points system would seem to make sense. You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers, as PayPal already does much of that for you. It would seem that just a simple module that would work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice. Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system. Whether you choose to call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars, whatever the case... it's still points. It's NOT real money, it's NOT real cash, it's just points. It would seem to make sense to create a separate OpenCurrency project as Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY important piece of the OpenSim project. Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any form of points systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would be similar to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse. I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom (for educational purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as Linden's) where people come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage in trading, etc. some form of points
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
I honestly think your wasting your time arguing, It seems to me everyone is just arguing this topic just for the sake of arguing, there are already Open Currnency Modules available, the hooks for currency are already in, the Core devs have done tons of work to make this happen, honestly not one thing you said makes any sense to me, you are arguing things that are already done saying they are not done and saying the devs are against. I suggest you go back and re-read what was said in this email thread, if you had spent as much time working on a module as you had typing this book of and email, you probably already would have had a Currency Module. If you want this so badly, then go ahead and do it, stop wasting everyones time talking about doing it and just do it already, and if you are not capable of doing it yourself, guess what, your also not qualified to talk about doing it with the core devs.. So please just back off this topic and let people who are qualified develop these systems. Nebadon On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:18 AM, Mark Malewski mark.malew...@gmail.comwrote: Jason/Colin/Rock/Aldon, I completely agree with your stance on having a virtual currency system/Karma system (whether it is or is not based on actual real-world currency). Companies like Zynga that do online gaming, have virtual currencies and things such as virtual money and Godfather points in their Mafia Wars games, and all of their other various games. Yes, I agree that there needs to be some form of virtual currency or points system. There is no argument concerning virtual currency as being unsecure, or inappropriate or any form of liability. I'm not saying that OpenSim core needs to add a gateway to secure e-commerce (such as PayPal) but there are lots of way to implement secure commerce. First off, the points in the game, are nothing more than that. They are just points. I've lost items (through gifting) before on other online games, and it's really no big deal. Tech support normally makes things right. But this is not a liability issue as much as this seems to be a money making issue. There seem to be some developers (in the core dev team) that may or may not want to offer their OWN e-commerce system (as a service/money making opportunity). So I can understand their rage in the concept of someone creating an OpenCurrency project, because they may feel that it's a loss of opportunity for them to sell a product (if someone gives it away for free, as in air). Ultimately I feel that a points/virtual currency system is vital to OpenSim's success. I believe e-commerce is an important part of Virtual World development, just as e-commerce is an important part of the web. Trying to have a virtual world without any form of e-commerce is similar to having an internet without any form of e-commerce. I've seen payment gateways for virtual worlds dating all the way back to 1996 (Active Worlds) and designing the core (securely) from the ground up, so that it could handle a virtual points system would seem to make sense. You don't need to build a mamoth of secure servers, as PayPal already does much of that for you. It would seem that just a simple module that would work hand in hand with PayPal's API would suffice. Linden dollars are nothing more than a points system. Whether you choose to call it Karma points, or currency, or virtual dollars, whatever the case... it's still points. It's NOT real money, it's NOT real cash, it's just points. It would seem to make sense to create a separate OpenCurrency project as Aldon suggested, as this seems to be an EXTREMELY important piece of the OpenSim project. Designing a virtual world system (like OpenSim) without any form of points systems (Karma, Currency, or whatever you wish to call it) would be similar to designing a computer without a monitor, keyboard or mouse. I understand the concept of having a 3D Virtual Chatroom (for educational purposes and online learning) but 3D portals (such as Linden's) where people come together, talk, chat, play online games, and engage in trading, etc. some form of points or commerce system is critical. If Core doesn't want to take part in the project (because they have their own vested interests in their own personal ventures) then it may be in the best interests of the Open Source Community to start a separate Open Source OpenCurrency project, that is a separate entity from Core, and it seems completely stupid to have to branch off and create a separate fork, but if this is what the Core Devs want is a separate fork, then so be it. RealXtend has had to fork, and it seems to hurt the OpenSource project as a whole, because the forks eventually run independently of one another. It would seem to make more sense to just make the OpenCurrency project a part of OpenSim core (as a module) that can easily be enabled/disabled by just installing the module, and enabling/disabling a flag in
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
I still experience an occasional hiccup with the Second Life money system so i remain slightly wary of it. Since money transactions remain a very buggy and unreliable thing when it comes to virtual worlds, I've learned many new ways to make financial gains without any in-world monetary implementations at all. At present I am gradually leasing out 25 regions from my own servers. I simply request payment be made via PayPal within the first 7 days of each month and thus far I've not experienced any issues at all. Everyone seems very happy and I simplify things by only leasing out full regions rather than trying to divide them up and lease out portions of regions. While an in-world money system would at times be nice, and eventually will come into being through optional plugins, I am quite happy managing my virtual world properties through PayPal payments. - Len W. Brown On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, J Ross Nicoll jrn2...@cs.st-andrews.ac.ukwrote: I think this illustrates extremely well why most of the devs don't want to touch a money system. Making a proper monetary system means ensuring that transactions happen, or do not, you can't get 7 copies of the same transaction that then have to be unpicked by hand. I wouldn't be averse to writing a money module if I had time (so, not this year), but I'd want to do it properly so you can't get into this sort of mess... Len Brown wrote: This reminds me of a situation I encountered in Second Life last Autumn. I logged in on a Saturday morning and decided to sell a piece of land I no longer needed. I set the asking price at 10,000 Lindens. Right about that time Linden Lad encountered a problem and began a rolling restart of their servers. Somehow the money system got stuck and when someone bought my land it did not register with the Linden Lab servers. The result was that, over the course of the next 20 minutes 7 people bought my land. When the dust settled I had one actual owner of my land and 7 actual purchases. As you might imagine, a lot of people were very angry that I got their Lindens and they got nothing in return. I communicated to them all and tried to explain the situation but most called me a liar since this never happened before. I then contacted Linden Lab tech support (after waiting nearly an hour on hold) and was told NOT to refund the Lindens as they would resolve the glitch. After 24 hours and some very hostile people demanding their money back I decided to go ahead and send each of them the 10,000 Lindens they gave me. Almost a week later I logged in to find my account nearly 70,000 Lindens overdrawn! -- The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No SC013532 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US $10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
4:39 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! Neb On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
The project is opencurrency on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. Melanie Aldon Hynes wrote: Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Melanie, et al., Thanks for the update. I've joined the opencurrency project and have put in a request to join the currency project as well. Is there any documentation on how to install this? I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page in the OpenSim wiki. Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this project, or is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency implementations for OpenSim? Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency The project is opencurrency on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. Melanie Aldon Hynes wrote: Melanie, Fly Man, et al., It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting implementation. I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki there is the http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which is intended as an open discussion board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system. Unfortunately, it does not provide any links to sample implementations. It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through the repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would be interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a standard OpenSim installation. With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was asking about a WiXTD interface). All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. I will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses now and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that wants it. Aldon -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de]on Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and keeping it available. I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had it for more than a year. We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have remove the interfaces. We just can't risk it in core. Melanie Fly Man wrote: Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided long ago There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: It's SAMPLE money I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. The story continues ... 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short snowdrop.sh...@gmail.com: The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! Neb On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS. Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$ or the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process? The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. Rock PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Rock, If I understand your question correctly, the answer is that if you as a grid service provider have enabled being able to invest economically in assets thru the use of an external currency module, it is you as a responsible grid service provider that has to make sure the currency module and the asset server is secure enough for your business model. This still holds: OpenSim is alpha software, provided without guarantee. It can be used in commercial settings provided you have the means to mitigate the risks involved. Most commercial grid operations have their own opensim development and quality assurance resources. That said, there is nothing stopping noone from creating and distributing currency, points or other economic implementations. We have provided hooks and examples. Best regards, Stefan Andersson From: colin.with...@eumetsat.int To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:06:47 +0200 Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS. Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$ or the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
This reminds me of a situation I encountered in Second Life last Autumn. I logged in on a Saturday morning and decided to sell a piece of land I no longer needed. I set the asking price at 10,000 Lindens. Right about that time Linden Lad encountered a problem and began a rolling restart of their servers. Somehow the money system got stuck and when someone bought my land it did not register with the Linden Lab servers. The result was that, over the course of the next 20 minutes 7 people bought my land. When the dust settled I had one actual owner of my land and 7 actual purchases. As you might imagine, a lot of people were very angry that I got their Lindens and they got nothing in return. I communicated to them all and tried to explain the situation but most called me a liar since this never happened before. I then contacted Linden Lab tech support (after waiting nearly an hour on hold) and was told NOT to refund the Lindens as they would resolve the glitch. After 24 hours and some very hostile people demanding their money back I decided to go ahead and send each of them the 10,000 Lindens they gave me. Almost a week later I logged in to find my account nearly 70,000 Lindens overdrawn! That was last Autumn and to this day Linden Lab never restored the Lindens I lost. So this is just one small example of why I am personally very happy to see that the monetary system is not tied in with the core OpenSim code. I'm not at all against the money system, but definitely feel it's best kept as a separate module for me to decide when and if I want to implement it on my own servers now. - Len ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Random thoughts: I've always thought that the decision to not include currency in OpenSim was an ill thought out decision for many reasons. As people have noted, the liability issue is a red herring. I believe there are much greater liability issues in the areas of intellectual property, copyright and so on in the asset system than there would be in a currency system. (I should note that this comes, in part, after talking with retired U.S. Treasury special agents). Clearly, there are issues about people not understanding what it means to use alpha code, as we learned last April, but that is also not a reasonable excuse for not producing code. All code is alpha at some stage. As Jeroen noted, there are other aspects of how currency could be used such as a karma system, that are well worth exploring. All of that said, I have no expectation that the powers that be will ever rethink their positions and so other alternatives should be pursued. Perhaps the best would be for people committed to OpenSimCurrency to start a seperate project where they can collaborate on building a strong and robust currency system. Currency doesn't need to be part of the core to be part of many worlds. Instead, SampleMoney and OpenCurrency could be used as the starting point for an OpenSimCurrency Project. The project could be expanded to provide much more information about the pros and cons of connecting a currency system to external currency systems, and perhaps even mechanisms to make such connections. Likewise, code could be created to take currency and embed it in objects using financial cryptography which could be used to transport currency between worlds and for that matter between out of world systems. (Side note to skeptics: I am well aware of the issues with many existing implementations of financial cryptography. I'm not saying this would be easy.) So, for any of you that are really interested in OpenSimCurrency, what do you say to starting a parallel project that provides a third party currency framework that can run in OpenSim? Aldon ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Aldon, Clearly, there are issues about people not understanding what it means to use alpha code, as we learned last April, but that is also not a reasonable excuse for not producing code. All code is alpha at some stage. I can assure you that neither of us are looking for excuses not to produce code. As Jeroen noted, there are other aspects of how currency could be used such as a karma system, that are well worth exploring. Definitively. I would suggest it would be based on some already-existing, web-based karma management cloud service implementation, so we don't need to download, compile and manage as much stuff. Perhaps the best would be for people committed to OpenSimCurrency to start a seperate project where they can collaborate on building a strong and robust currency system. So, for any of you that are really interested in OpenSimCurrency, what do you say to starting a parallel project that provides a third party currency framework that can run in OpenSim? Go for it. Host it on the forge, create a wiki for it. Can't wait to see the first release. Also, I believe there is still an Freenode IRC channel called #opensim-money. /Stefan ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Very well put, Neb. Some, it seems, argue simply for the sake of argument and the perception that open-source equates free labor. I myself have had disagreements with certain other open-source solutions and I choose to take advantage of my disagreeable nature and learned enough C# to implement the changes I desired that no one else would. In the end I gained a great tool and accomplished a customized application to suit my particular needs at the time. - Len On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! Neb On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Stefan Andersson *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Colin B. Withers *Sent:* den 7 juli 2009 15:27 *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Stefan, et al., I'm glad you think this is a good idea. I'm heading on vacation for a couple weeks leaving this weekend, so I'll be hard to reach. However, if we can get the project up and going before I go, that would be great. Questions I have: Who wrote and/or has copies of the SampleMoney and OpenCurrency code? Who has any design documents are would be willing to create some design documents? If you want to help, please contact me directly. I can set up a Wiki on one of my hosting accounts and try to get the ball rolling, but I'll need help. Aldon -Original Message- So, for any of you that are really interested in OpenSimCurrency, what do you say to starting a parallel project that provides a third party currency framework that can run in OpenSim? Go for it. Host it on the forge, create a wiki for it. Can't wait to see the first release. Also, I believe there is still an Freenode IRC channel called #opensim-money. /Stefan ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US$10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! Neb On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. Rock *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Stefan Andersson *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
One huge difference between having OpenSim assets stolen vs. having real money stolen is that a lost asset means the *possible* loss of future sales, not the immediate loss of real money. Having money/account information stolen has 2 major disadvantages, 1) It's an immediate and substantial loss 2) It could be way more than a mere US$10 if your entire bank account is stolen or your identity is stolen. OpenSim is about providing 3d virtual environments, not banking. Peace, Sean Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US$10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! Neb On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int mailto:colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module. I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: Hi Neb, No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto release. Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) are sourced from different suppliers. Now, please explain to me the difference between: i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server malfunction? It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). Is there any real difference between: 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my balance, 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US $10's worth of inworld currency 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: Currency module = big risk Asset server = no risk And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully worded TOS. Rock From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Rock, I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS. Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$ or the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process? The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. Rock PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with your code ate my money complaints. Chris From: Colin B. Withersmailto:colin.with...@eumetsat.int Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.demailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed? Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D chatrooms. Rock -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.demailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.demailto:opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency implementation. Melanie Melvin Carvalho wrote: Will currencies be distributed accross grids? On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisherbikc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS bikc...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: 07/05/09 17:54:00 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Honestly from a legal stand point you would be insane to try to start a currency in OpenSimulator at this time, it is Alpha Software, and OpenSimulator team will in no way support an Economic system, i would have to say if your grid is waiting on this, its probably going to be waiting for ever, Do not expect the core dev team to work this problem out for you, if you want an economy you will need to develop it yourself for your grid, there are some examples around to help you get started, but I will repeat, anyone attempting to do this now, is crazy, a TOS is not going to prevent theft, and OpenSimulator is ultimatly not secure, and should not be used in any Level of what is to be considered a Production level enviornment, those who are doing so now are taking an extreme risk and probably have very little understanding of security. and lastly it has already been decided by core dev team at the recommendation of lawyers, that oepnsimulator never include any type of economy system in the core code, for those of you waiting for this are waiting in vain at this point. Neb On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int wrote: If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS. Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$ or the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process? The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. Rock PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hart *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with your code ate my money complaints. Chris *From:* Colin B. Withers colin.with...@eumetsat.int *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed? Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D chatrooms. Rock -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [ mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.deopensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency implementation. Melanie Melvin Carvalho wrote: Will currencies be distributed accross grids? On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisherbikc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. Anyone know
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Nebadon Izuminebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: Honestly from a legal stand point you would be insane to try to start a currency in OpenSimulator at this time, the only thing that would be remotely safe IANAL IANACPA would be for the team to put somewhere in the code [currency module connects here] and then leave it at that. You might be able to cheat Death but the TaxMan will always get you (and he will brings his friends) the Dept of the Treasury is not something you want to much about with. -- Robert L Martin ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Rock, An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom implementation/third party provider layer. There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators and custom implementation. It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, tailored for the specific use case, be created. As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it's a case of weighting several variables against each other. In this case, it's been a long standing stance that implementation of a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk, it's not only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don't want to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core would be an indication that it's right not having one inside; if there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. /Stefan From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Colin B. Withers Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in core, from those who might complain your code ate my money is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use of a carefully worded TOS. Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$ or the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process? The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. Rock PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Chris Hart Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with your code ate my money complaints. Chris From: Colin mailto:colin.with...@eumetsat.int B. Withers Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Has this always been
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
There seems to be a proposal here: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money So perhaps each grid operates its own system. Though it would be very cool if each grid system could interact with each other. On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Melaniemela...@t-data.com wrote: OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency implementation. Melanie Melvin Carvalho wrote: Will currencies be distributed accross grids? On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisherbikc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS bikc...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed? Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D chatrooms. Rock -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency implementation. Melanie Melvin Carvalho wrote: Will currencies be distributed accross grids? On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisherbikc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS bikc...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency
Re: [Opensim-dev] CurrencyCouldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back to haunt with your code ate my money complaints. Chris From: Colin B. Withers Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed? Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than 3D chatrooms. Rock -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Melanie Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency implementation. Melanie Melvin Carvalho wrote: Will currencies be distributed accross grids? On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisherbikc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS bikc...@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: 07/05/09 17:54:00 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
