RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Title: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Thanks for the link, I love that story:)) KK -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jacques KilchoerSent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 6:28 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? -Original Message- From: Kevin Kostyszyn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. Navy ship USS Yorktown. http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm This article (in Scientific American) says that the problem may have been caused by 3rd party software, not NT. http://www.sciam.com/1998/1198issue/1198techbus2.html
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? ||No, that's a pretty simple statement to get my head around I think! You like to promote peoples views, whilst not actually believing them yourself right? :) you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) ||Well - not quite a genius, and have never taken any mensa tests or anything, but I like to think of myself as pretty smart every now and then. That's usually why I can write a PARAGRAPH on my own, without the help of a computer, and still not end with up a great long spiel of blurb. NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) ||Currently have a copy of LINUX sat on my desk waiting to be installed, as well as Solaris 8, so many things to try, so little time to do it, and personally I don't think I would waste any of that time on MSDN. I think there are other things to consider here though - not EVERY start-up company, is working in the IT industry, though they may need databases to help them do their jobs. Now, as I mentioned before, if we are talking about a small start-up, with no venture capital, and huge wads of cash to throw around, and they ONLY have limited experience with computers, then windows is their ideal solution. Or should they still go out and get LINUX when they have no experience with a UNIX type platform - and then put most of their time in to learning that - when they could be working on growing their business? All I was trying to get at is that Windows DOES have its uses out there, I too agree with you that UNIX is a far more stable and configurable platform though. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! ||If you can get it running sweet as a nut - why bother? You can touch the database, and play with that to your hearts content - but why fix something that isn't broken? You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) ||That's a bold statement to make on this list - and I don't think you'll make many friends by posting it! As for me being a block headed 3rd rate DBA? Well, for one, I am a SALES PERSON believe it or not, as I mentioned we deal with tools - I sell them to DBAs.. Bearing that in mind - I am trained in Oracle SQLServer administration (no certification), and also have a copy of DB2 to install and play with - personally I think I am OVER QUALIFIED for my job - and you won't find many sales people around like me. Like you I love to learn - and I do every day I live.. I then *try* to share this knowledge as much as I can.. This is all *my* opinion, and I'm sticking to I'm afraid. You sound a bit - ummm - angry, no maybe not angry, but certainly a very rude, and insulting man (Alex? :). I didn't mean to offend - just give another view (which I believe I'm entitled to..). Cheers Mark -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
True story: I took a course in Strategic Management at grad school, one section of which was Disaster Planning and Recovery. A few months later, our building (I'm in the Informatics dept.) burns down: http://www.city.ac.uk/news/fire/ The only professor who needed his coursework resubmitted was... the DPR lecturer. Of course, maybe that was his idea of a practical assignment, if you had a backup copy of your work, you passed his course! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 10:21 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L this email lacks organization, as it is just notes from memory and searching. My experience in this are is somewhat dated - almost 20 years ago. One professor at CMU (G.J. Powers) covered failure mode analysis in the design of Chemical Process plants in an intro to ChemE course. Basically, the event was a human fataility, and the rule of 1 death in 20,000 man*years was the threshold. (circa 1983). He is a co-author of the Lapp-Powers algorithm. I was truly impressed by his use of heuristics as a general problem solving method. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Just my 2p worth but I have been evaluating a few of the tools that Marks company provides and both me my colleagues (developers and DBAs) found them to be top notch (erm...excellent if this doesn't translate well) and basically a fraction of the cost that Quest etc. charge. I have spent a lot of time evaluating Quests tools as well (and many others). I won't lie and I'm sure Mark will not be offended but the look of the whole thing isn't as pretty as Quests stuff (probably effects the price !!) but gives you the same information and in many cases delves a whole lot deeper. I would imagine once the American economy eventually sorts itself out (I work for an American company by the way), appropriate funds will be released and I will be involved in the purchase of the aforementioned tools. Regards Lee -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 12:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
You got me on this one, but my guess would be Grandpa Simpson said that one:) KK -Original Message- Conron Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On June 27, 2001 03:05 pm, Mustafa wrote: True Fact: Unix was first invented in 1913 by my great great uncle (twice removed) Ralph Unix. Ralph worked with him as THE first DBA. I bet most of you didn't know that the Unix server Ralph is talking about is powered by steam engine! ;-) simpsons reference ... of course, he had an onion tied to his belt, because that was the style of the time /simpsons reference Cheers, GC -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
cool, now if I could get them to open their wallets. boy are there toys I want to buy for here! From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:25:55 -0800 Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Thanks Lee! It's always great to hear when people enjoy using your products! And Lee is right - the products don't look as nice as some of Quest's tools do (Spotlight for instance), but then they are not ugly either, and in most cases, all provide the same if not more functionality for less, as you rightly pointed out. We have had the odd person go for Quest's tools just because they were prettier though! :) Go figure.. Cheers again Lee.. Mark -Original Message- Lee - lerobe Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 03:25 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just my 2p worth but I have been evaluating a few of the tools that Marks company provides and both me my colleagues (developers and DBAs) found them to be top notch (erm...excellent if this doesn't translate well) and basically a fraction of the cost that Quest etc. charge. I have spent a lot of time evaluating Quests tools as well (and many others). I won't lie and I'm sure Mark will not be offended but the look of the whole thing isn't as pretty as Quests stuff (probably effects the price !!) but gives you the same information and in many cases delves a whole lot deeper. I would imagine once the American economy eventually sorts itself out (I work for an American company by the way), appropriate funds will be released and I will be involved in the purchase of the aforementioned tools. Regards Lee -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 12:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Lee, so why didn't they quote you in the article in the latest Oracle magazine? :) Rachel From: Robertson Lee - lerobe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:24:43 -0800 snip I would imagine once the American economy eventually sorts itself out (I work for an American company by the way), appropriate funds will be released and I will be involved in the purchase of the aforementioned tools. Regards Lee -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 12:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Rachel Carmichael wrote: cool, now if I could get them to open their wallets. boy are there toys I want to buy for here! Since I and others respect your opinion(s), what tools would you buy why them instead of others? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Charlie Mengler INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
nope, sorry, I can't do that tools that would work well for me might not for you and I can't in good conscience endorse one thing over another. Evaluate on your own, check out Mark's tools, Quest's, Embarcadero, Precise, BMC I know I'm missing someone here, it's not intentional. Different tools may be too expensive for me but not you. Or vice versa. Or too difficult for me to configure but not you. And so on. From: Charlie Mengler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:56:22 -0800 Rachel Carmichael wrote: cool, now if I could get them to open their wallets. boy are there toys I want to buy for here! Since I and others respect your opinion(s), what tools would you buy why them instead of others? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Charlie Mengler INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
*shrug* you have to reboot a Sun if you want to change the number of file descriptors. NT assigns them dynamically. Does that mean that Unix now isn't a suitable OS either? A few clues please, people. This discussion has become over-emotive. g -Original Message- [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 3:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi, The GUI is nice and very productive , but how an OS could pretend to be 24x7 when if you change configuration you must restart the computer. Regards, Antonio Belloni -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
erm who Marks company or mine ??? I haven't received one of those bloody magazines for months despite resubscribing. -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 16:19 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Lee, so why didn't they quote you in the article in the latest Oracle magazine? :) Rachel From: Robertson Lee - lerobe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:24:43 -0800 snip I would imagine once the American economy eventually sorts itself out (I work for an American company by the way), appropriate funds will be released and I will be involved in the purchase of the aforementioned tools. Regards Lee -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 12:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
This is an interesting thread which seems to reappear at regular intervals. I find it hard to believe that NT could be made 99.999% available at the same cost and administration duties as any UNIX based server. Now, if I cluster enough machines together I can probably make any Operating System/Hardware combination viable. I think a lot of people have witnessed a UNIX box that has not been down, whether scheduled or unscheduled, for two years or more at a time. I've yet to see an NT box that can say the same. Of course, I mean an NT box that is doing some real work, not just a file server, mail server or the like. Put Oracle on NT and let a few hundred users hit it for a couple of months and show me it hasn't crashed. Now, take the same box and put Linux on it, combined with Oracle and perform the same test. I think we all know what the results would be. Even Microsoft admits the average reboot time between Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 went all the way up to seven days. Wow, what a marketing gimmick they've got there. Of course this discussion fails to mention the fact the Windows NT is inherently more insecure than UNIX. I suspect that all of our data is worth more that the equipment it sits on. Just my two cents worth. Help me..I'm booting..booting (Darn that NT!!) :) --Michael -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jenkins, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
yours dear From: Robertson Lee - lerobe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:36:42 -0800 erm who Marks company or mine ??? I haven't received one of those bloody magazines for months despite resubscribing. -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 16:19 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Lee, so why didn't they quote you in the article in the latest Oracle magazine? :) Rachel From: Robertson Lee - lerobe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:24:43 -0800 snip I would imagine once the American economy eventually sorts itself out (I work for an American company by the way), appropriate funds will be released and I will be involved in the purchase of the aforementioned tools. Regards Lee -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 12:26 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, In the session detail screen, it will list all of the SQL currently in the SQLAREA for that session, so if you don't catch the blocked session straight away (away from your desk or out to lunch), you can in fact miss the SQL as it may have been aged out of the SQLAREA. The way I would use the tool though would be like this: 1) Set up the standard rule - ORA_GLOB_BLOCKED_SESSIONS with a threshold of 1 (Tell me whenever a session is blocked) The Analyzer agent will then monitor the instance on a REFRESH (x sec/min) basis for any blocked sessions. 2) Set up an Event Handler under the Alerter Agent that fires off an External Action (execute a program or a script), that will fire off a script that will select all SQL for that user, and then email the output to your email address, showing you the username etc. with all SQL they have executed. This way you are *almost* guaranteed to catch the SQL they are using. I say *almost* as there is that .1% chance that somebody has got a stupidly small SQLAREA, and a HELL of a lot of SQL going through it.. Not very likely at all, given the time the Alerter agent would take to perform all of this, and I'm sure your instances are set up a HELL of a lot better than that! :) Then there is the possibility of a User Defined Collection - but that's another story that is too long for this list :) HTH Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 05:14 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Robertson Lee - lerobe INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Rachel Carmichael
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Guy, Sidestepping the fact that you targeted your excellent reply to a person who has been disinvited from the list, I have to say it's one of the best posts I have read in a while ( on this my daddy is going to beat up your daddy OS trend ). I think most of us got into and stayed in this business because we like technology...tinkering...systems..figuring out how things work and making them better. Somewhere along the line, we adopted brand name allegiances and left behind our raw enthusiasm. Just my opinion...no bad vibes intended. Personally, I am interested in seeing what the next twenty years bring. I can't wait to talk with my kids about the newest mindblowing technology in their worldwouldn't mind working on it,either and I am pretty sure my kids will laugh at me when I told them I actually used VMS, DOS, NT, and Unix. I might even get interviewed for a Social Studies report on history. Now *that's* living! - Ross -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This is an interesting thread which seems to reappear at regular intervals. I find it hard to believe that NT could be made 99.999% available at the same cost and administration duties as any UNIX based server. Now, if I cluster enough machines together I can probably make any Operating System/Hardware combination viable. I think a lot of people have witnessed a UNIX box that has not been down, whether scheduled or unscheduled, for two years or more at a time. I've yet to see an NT box that can say the same. Of course, I mean an NT box that is doing some real work, not just a file server, mail server or the like. Put Oracle on NT and let a few hundred users hit it for a couple of months and show me it hasn't crashed. Now, take the same box and put Linux on it, combined with Oracle and perform the same test. I think we all know what the results would be. Even Microsoft admits the average reboot time between Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 went all the way up to seven days. Wow, what a marketing gimmick they've got there. Of course this discussion fails to mention the fact the Windows NT is inherently more insecure than UNIX. I suspect that all of our data is worth more that the equipment it sits on. Just my two cents worth. Help me..I'm booting..booting (Darn that NT!!) :) --Michael -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jenkins, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I have had problems with my subscription to O mag. I will subscribe, recieve a copy then not recieve anything for 5 or 6 months - till I remember to re-subscribe. Then I'll get a copy and then nothing till I re-subscribe again. It has been that way for about 3 years. Terry Robertson Lee - lerobe wrote: erm who Marks company or mine ??? I haven't received one of those bloody magazines for months despite resubscribing. -Original Message- Sent: 28 June 2001 16:19 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Lee, so why didn't they quote you in the article in the latest Oracle magazine? :) Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Terry Ball INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This is an interesting thread which seems to reappear at regular intervals. I find it hard to believe that NT could be made 99.999% available at the same cost and administration duties as any UNIX based server. Now, if I cluster enough machines together I can probably make any Operating System/Hardware combination viable. I think a lot of people have witnessed a UNIX box that has not been down, whether scheduled or unscheduled, for two years or more at a time. I've yet to see an NT box that can say the same. Of course, I mean an NT box that is doing some real work, not just a file server, mail server or the like. Put Oracle on NT and let a few hundred users hit it for a couple of months and show me it hasn't crashed. Now, take the same box and put Linux on it, combined with Oracle and perform the same test. I think we all know what the results would be. Even Microsoft admits the average reboot time between Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 went all the way up to seven days. Wow, what a marketing gimmick they've got there. Of course this discussion fails to mention the fact the Windows NT is inherently more insecure than UNIX. I suspect that all of our data is worth more that the equipment it sits on. Just my two cents worth. Help me..I'm booting..booting (Darn that NT!!) :) --Michael -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jenkins, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru')
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
wonderful. Someone should let George Clooney know. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This is an interesting thread which seems to reappear at regular intervals. I find it hard to believe that NT could be made 99.999% available at the same cost and administration duties as any UNIX based server. Now, if I cluster enough machines together I can probably make any Operating System/Hardware combination viable. I think a lot of people have witnessed a UNIX box that has not been down, whether scheduled or unscheduled, for two years or more at a time. I've yet to see an NT box that can say the same. Of course, I mean an NT box that is doing some real work, not just a file server, mail server or the like. Put Oracle on NT and let a few hundred users hit it for a couple of months and show me it hasn't crashed. Now, take the same box and put Linux on it, combined with Oracle and perform the same test. I think we all know what the results would be. Even Microsoft admits the average reboot time between Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 went all the way up to seven days. Wow, what a marketing gimmick they've got there. Of course this discussion fails to mention the fact the Windows NT is inherently more insecure than UNIX. I suspect that all of our data is worth more that the equipment it sits on. Just my two cents worth. Help me..I'm booting..booting (Darn that NT!!) :) --Michael -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Jenkins, Michael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
The software or the ship? --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Weaver, Walt INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. KK -Original Message- Walt Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The software or the ship? --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Weaver, Walt INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Interesting how the concept of history is different for science vs. technology. Henry -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Guy, Sidestepping the fact that you targeted your excellent reply to a person who has been disinvited from the list, I have to say it's one of the best posts I have read in a while ( on this my daddy is going to beat up your daddy OS trend ). I think most of us got into and stayed in this business because we like technology...tinkering...systems..figuring out how things work and making them better. Somewhere along the line, we adopted brand name allegiances and left behind our raw enthusiasm. Just my opinion...no bad vibes intended. Personally, I am interested in seeing what the next twenty years bring. I can't wait to talk with my kids about the newest mindblowing technology in their worldwouldn't mind working on it,either and I am pretty sure my kids will laugh at me when I told them I actually used VMS, DOS, NT, and Unix. I might even get interviewed for a Social Studies report on history. Now *that's* living! - Ross -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My $0.02: Unisys will build you a 99.999% available system, on NT. Boeing and NASDAQ, two very serious organizations, use NT for their line of business. I could go on and on, but I will summarize: Whatever your Unix box can do, my old VMS box can do better. Uptime, performance tuning, clustering, security, the works. I say this not to brag, but merely to illustrate that if you let a sentimental attachment to a technology cloud your judgment, you are destined for the scrap heap. If I had ca$h money to spend on new technology, I would consider your advice tainted by a clear lack of objectivity. The issue is, the right tool for the right job. It doesn't matter if technology XYZ is the greatest. What matter is, can I get people to work on it? Can I afford the hardware to run it on? Etc... there are a lot of businesses that do not and will never need the kind of computing power that NASDAQ need... and NT is good enough for them. Just like the average athlete doesn't need the last Air Zoom Super Whiz, but they'll buy a pair of Nikes anyway. Personally, I think that OSs are just those silly things you need to run Oracle on, and I can't wait until everything is an Oracle Appliance! :0) g -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Guy Hammond INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Henry Poras INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Sounds a little more familiar, I am pretty sure that it was a destroyer. I think I may have to do some investigating:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think it was the Navy. The US Coast Guard has something called USCG SW-III (Standard Workstation III) that is NT 4.0 on Unisys. If you have ever worked at the Coast Guard, you know these boxes are EVERYWHERE. Some people even have two. They are highly standardized, well above average in MTBF and MTTR, and the Coast Guard runs on them. I ::think:: (but could easily be wrong) that the Navy was trying to integrate an NT box with a disparate realtime targeting system and when the NT box GPF'ed, it downed the targeting radar. Prudence dictated the ship head back to port for repairs, radar being directly related to a destroyers seaworthiness. But, again, this could be WAY WRONG, so two grains of salt, ok guys? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. KK -Original Message- Walt Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The software or the ship? --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Weaver, Walt INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Ross, On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Mohan; Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/28/2001 12:07 PM I think it was the Navy. The US Coast Guard has something called USCG SW-III (Standard Workstation III) that is NT 4.0 on Unisys. If you have ever worked at the Coast Guard, you know these boxes are EVERYWHERE. Some people even have two. They are highly standardized, well above average in MTBF and MTTR, and the Coast Guard runs on them. I ::think:: (but could easily be wrong) that the Navy was trying to integrate an NT box with a disparate realtime targeting system and when the NT box GPF'ed, it downed the targeting radar. Prudence dictated the ship head back to port for repairs, radar being directly related to a destroyers seaworthiness. But, again, this could be WAY WRONG, so two grains of salt, ok guys? -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. KK -Original Message- Walt Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The software or the ship? --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Weaver, Walt INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
OH MAN, the F-22 with NT, oh jeez...Hey I love NT, but the amount of times I have had to reboot a machine, I couldn't imagine that in an F-22. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OH MAN, the F-22 with NT, oh jeez...Hey I love NT, but the amount of times I have had to reboot a machine, I couldn't imagine that in an F-22. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Ohhh...that was good, wish I would have thought of that:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OH MAN, the F-22 with NT, oh jeez...Hey I love NT, but the amount of times I have had to reboot a machine, I couldn't imagine that in an F-22. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Mohan, Ross wrote: yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) give the phrase blue screen of death a whole new meaning.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to. I'll start with radio shack. - Lisa Simpson -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
that's my job, soldier: Humor Mach One. Now, at ease, and smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ohhh...that was good, wish I would have thought of that:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OH MAN, the F-22 with NT, oh jeez...Hey I love NT, but the amount of times I have had to reboot a machine, I couldn't imagine that in an F-22. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network
OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Title: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? -Original Message- From: Kevin Kostyszyn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. Navy ship USS Yorktown. http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm This article (in Scientific American) says that the problem may have been caused by 3rd party software, not NT. http://www.sciam.com/1998/1198issue/1198techbus2.html
RE: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
It's funny what this thread has turned into!!! -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 6:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L that's my job, soldier: Humor Mach One. Now, at ease, and smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ohhh...that was good, wish I would have thought of that:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OH MAN, the F-22 with NT, oh jeez...Hey I love NT, but the amount of times I have had to reboot a machine, I couldn't imagine that in an F-22. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:42 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dick. || Thanks for chiming in! On number one, those Unisys workstations were standardized over all of the services since GSA singed a VERY large contract for them. We had them all over the place in the USAF as well. || Well..ok...but I never saw any in the Navy. But I was in what is now called SPAWAR...maybe they didn't dig those GSA contracts. The ones you and I saw where the SW-II. Since then, they've got SW-III in. I wonder if they still call them snotboxes since they kinda looked like a tissue box On the second point, your dead right. I do not remember the ship involved, but it turned out to have been a SQL*Server bug that gpf'd the OS. The totality of the problem was that the ship's radar, navigation, weapons control, and digital electronic control system were all knocked out at the same time. Can you say OOPS!!.The ship returned to port under manual control without incident. Seems someone at the Navy was a little old fashioned in their thinking. || Yeaabout five years ago? SS6.0 maybe? BTW: My source of info here is the Air Force News Agency's daily news letter. They had a good laugh I'm sure since I understand that the F-22 was suppose to be NT driven as well initially. || brace for bad, military procurement pun Don't you mean they had a good AN-UYK over it? Better ideas I do believe have prevailed. || I can't imagine making anything mission critical either under vanilla, dos, unix, or nt. VMS maybe -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
ahhahahahaha -Original Message- William Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 6:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mohan, Ross wrote: yea, they could call it the gpF-22 then.:) give the phrase blue screen of death a whole new meaning.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to. I'll start with radio shack. - Lisa Simpson -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Give the man an onion! Or five bees for a quarter On June 28, 2001 11:31 am, Kevin Kostyszyn wrote: You got me on this one, but my guess would be Grandpa Simpson said that one:) KK -Original Message- Conron Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On June 27, 2001 03:05 pm, Mustafa wrote: True Fact: Unix was first invented in 1913 by my great great uncle (twice removed) Ralph Unix. Ralph worked with him as THE first DBA. I bet most of you didn't know that the Unix server Ralph is talking about is powered by steam engine! ;-) simpsons reference of course, he had an onion tied to his belt, because that was the style of the time /simpsons reference Cheers, GC -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists --- - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Actually, I think that was the Navy. I remember discussions on this. It happened more then once. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hahah, the software, the ship had to be towed back to port:) However, not sure if it was the coast guard or the navy, but I am going with the coast guard. KK -Original Message- Walt Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 3:20 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The software or the ship? --Walt Weaver Bozeman, Montana, USA -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On one of their newer ships they were using NT, and it froze up a couple of times. -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The Coast guard uses Unisys, too...but i don't know where NT fits in to their front line systems. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Weaver, Walt INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kimberly Smith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
the most fun that my Exchange server has ever delivered, I just hope it's up to the task:) KK -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Never said that. In fact if you read back a little further I specifically say NT is good for the desktop. Or did your exchange server not deliver that message? Perhaps a nice little vb script held your outlook session hostage and you werent able to get the e-mail. Good thing for reply messages, right? All I'm saying is that NT really doesnt have a place in a 5 9 env, pretty simple eh? When you reboot your laptop everynight, and dont care about nasty memory leaks on your workstation with too much ram cause you work for a fancy startup w/ too much venture capital, then NT is wonderful. Easy to use, and if you dont want to think and have a lot of patience for things breaking that are beyond your control, and excellent product for end users. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Kevin Kostyszyn wrote: Oooh...wow! Quick, maybe we should run out and convince 90% of the business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe dream and that the idea of trying to simplify our lives with the GUI is also just a big fat waste of time. Then everyone can get rid of their computers that have windows and Unix can take over the world. Yeah...archaic coding at a monochrome terminal..jeez the future looks so bright KK :) -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some patches before some script kiddies nail my ass :) Are you sure that there arent a few extra digits in that uptime there bud? ;) We could invent more reasonable values that pre-epoch (hell, even pre-digital computer) in the future. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact
Re: 24 x 7 on NT?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss ?= the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with HP. And each failure takes about 2 hours to fix. Now at $1000 per minute of lost revenue that comes to $120,000. A dual server and OPS architecture would cost $190,000 just to acquire the hardware and software. Definitely not worth the expense since all of the failures we've had have been soft ones anyway. Dick Goulet this email lacks organization, as it is just notes from memory and searching. My experience in this are is somewhat dated - almost 20 years ago. One professor at CMU (G.J. Powers) covered failure mode analysis in the design of Chemical Process plants in an intro to ChemE course. Basically, the event was a human fataility, and the rule of 1 death in 20,000 man*years was the threshold. (circa 1983). He is a co-author of the Lapp-Powers algorithm. I was truly impressed by his use of heuristics as a general problem solving method. Here, the event may be the inability of a user connection via the internet to not connect withing 10 seconds, or the ability to provide business continuity via a disaster recovery site. http://www.drj.com is a good start for disaster recovery stuff - but that is off the topic. A google search on fault tree analysis or failure mode analysis turned up some interesting links. Look for the term Hazop as a term used for operability analysis in the Chemical Processing Industry for models. much of this type of research was accomplished during the US space program - Apollo missions in particular. handling LOX and having enriched oxygen atmospheres tends to make people pay attention to safety. also - a great deal of research in this area was accomplished in the nuclear power industry. links: NASA is usually a good one - http://www.sti.nasa.gov/new/fta34.html Sandia National Labs http://reliability.sandia.gov/Reliability/Fault_Tree_Analysis/fault_tree_analysis.html here's one commercial one - http://www.fault-tree.com/ http://www.high-availability.com/docs/index.htm basically, you want to perform a failure mode analysis and prepare a fault tree. interdependencies are especially important to cover, as an instability in one system can then cause rippling effects in other systems that are coupled (e.g. a DNS Server). events are classified as minor (+1) (loss of hard disk) and major (+10) (backhoe severs fiber-optic backbone of half of US). you'll need some sample figures for various components. MTTF (mean time to failure) MTBF (mean time between failure) MTTR (mean time to repair) couple that with component prices, and you should be able to produce a decent model for how to incrementally decrease chance of failure vs. additional cost of redundancy. The administrative costs of staff level of expertise, additional training, testing and documentation are more difficult to estimate. Don't under-estimate human factors as being the primary cause of various failures. Human Reliability Analysis is a good buzzword to describe this area. http://reliability.sandia.gov/Human_Factor_Engineering/Human_Reliability_Analysis/human_reliability_analysis.html Throw in an analysis as to what spares to have on hand also - vs. carrying tighter turn-around times from vendors in support agreements. This is something that I've been meaning to do for awhile. I'd bet that many a thesis has already been prepared in this area. an interesting link to a Fault-Tree analysis of Intrusion Detection: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/395103.html I've been told that much of the Oracle high-avail is in korn shell - and downloadable. bibliography of texts in this area: http://www.enre.umd.edu/srel/edures/rbooks.htm sleep. Paul -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Paul Drake INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858)
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) Mark -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 02:10 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Apparently you dont have any respect for the late Douglas Adams. Tisk Tisk! I'm certianly not saying that NT isnt good for what it was designed to do... workstation/end user platforms. Its a nice way for everyone to not have to think and enjoy pointing and clicking all day. Does windows have the scalability/reliability needed in for a datawarehouse or heavy transaction processing environment? Nope, but then again you probably wouldnt know that cause its out side of the scope of windows :) I'm not here to debate who is smarter than who, I just hate the environment that windows breeds. I'm not a person person. I like to work with computers, and when I have some twit crawling up my ass cause he thinks he knows the ins and outs of networking / data managment / io / resource management cause he pointed and clicked his way into some certificate, it just pisses me off. If all you want to do is set up an exchange server at home fine, but dont assume that you know EVERYTHING about smtp/mail servers/mua and the universe because you pointed and clicked till your fingers were worn down to the nubs setting up your backoffice suite of products 90% of which you will never use and 95% of the products that you actually do use, you wont understand. Windows is a breeding ground for morons. IF (I emphasize IF) a knowledgeable individual sets up a windows machine, it can and often does what it says it can do. Windows doesnt breed and environment that you HAVE to learn what you're doing. Microsoft says that it wants everything to be easy to set up and working together which when it happens its a good thing (although it happens few and far between). The problem is that through years of never having to learn a thing you end up not knowing anything. On a unix machine you HAVE to know what you're doing, what you need to set up and what its specific job is. I have to learn how the parts of the system work together, how the different systems interact, and how everything fits into the whole. Because I know what everything is doing, and how it behaves I can walk up to a windows machine and fix the problem. Windows is easy to use, easy to set up, and IS useful for the day to day things of the average end user. When I walk into a data center at sun, or TI, or nokia, or ericson, or eds, or any fab plant I see rows and rows of sun / hp boxes doing a whole range of high availability services. When I walk into broadwing or aperian or some other co-loc place that hosts a bunch of .com's and see rows of way over priced/powered dell servers hosting the 50 hits a day that averagestartup.com is getting then I think fine... what has the world lost if that machine goes down? Do you think
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) But then I remember someone complaining of GUI'ed tool not doing right Migration Job (after waiting for more than a day) for him right And that's the reason, the more you become familiar with Depths of Databases more you start hating those so called Easy to Use GUI Tools... My 50p ;-)) Rajesh OC DBA 88i -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) Mark -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 02:10 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Apparently you dont have any respect for the late Douglas Adams. Tisk Tisk! I'm certianly not saying that NT isnt good for what it was designed to do... workstation/end user platforms. Its a nice way for everyone to not have to think and enjoy pointing and clicking all day. Does windows have the scalability/reliability needed in for a datawarehouse or heavy transaction processing environment? Nope, but then again you probably wouldnt know that cause its out side of the scope of windows :) I'm not here to debate who is smarter than who, I just hate the environment that windows breeds. I'm not a person person. I like to work with computers, and when I have some twit crawling up my ass cause he thinks he knows the ins and outs of networking / data managment / io / resource management cause he pointed and clicked his way into some certificate, it just pisses me off. If all you want to do is set up an exchange server at home fine, but dont assume that you know EVERYTHING about smtp/mail servers/mua and the universe because you pointed and clicked till your fingers were worn down to the nubs setting up your backoffice suite of products 90% of which you will never use and 95% of the products that you actually do use, you wont understand. Windows is a breeding ground for morons. IF (I emphasize IF) a knowledgeable individual sets up a windows machine, it can and often does what it says it can do. Windows doesnt breed and environment that you HAVE to learn what you're doing. Microsoft says that it wants everything to be easy to set up and working together which when it happens its a good thing (although it happens few and far between). The problem is that through years of never having to learn a thing you end up not knowing anything. On a unix machine you HAVE to know what you're doing, what you need to set up and what its specific job is. I have to learn how the parts of the system work together, how the different systems interact, and how
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish), eating your doughnuts, drinking coffee, and slapping developers - what's the problem with them? Mark Disclaimer: This is in no way the view of my employer, just my own (probably stupid) opinion. -Original Message- Dayal Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:02 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) But then I remember someone complaining of GUI'ed tool not doing right Migration Job (after waiting for more than a day) for him right And that's the reason, the more you become familiar with Depths of Databases more you start hating those so called Easy to Use GUI Tools... My 50p ;-)) Rajesh OC DBA 88i -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) Mark -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 02:10 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Apparently you dont have any respect for the late Douglas Adams. Tisk Tisk! I'm certianly not saying that NT isnt good for what it was designed to do... workstation/end user platforms. Its a nice way for everyone to not have to think and enjoy pointing and clicking all day. Does windows have the scalability/reliability needed in for a datawarehouse or heavy transaction processing environment? Nope, but then again you
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them? No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number of database admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of a command line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can be great (except when they're written in java :), but you should actually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it before you start clicking a database to death. Just my cynical $.02. Cheers, GC -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Re[2]: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Hi Try checking out all of your drivers. A mate of mine recently purchased a new motherboard and Athlon 900, firstly it seemed to run like a dog, after a bit of looking around he found out that it was probably the VIA chipset, so on went the new drivers, seemed to run better but still not happy. Reinstalled OS with the new VIA drivers and ram great, all except for this strange occasional lockup. He found the cause by chance when he was moving house and fired up his system without the modem attached. System was running very well so he hooked up his modem to check some email and shortly later bang system lockup. Got the new USRobotics driver for his system and last I heard he was rockin. Peter At 08:55 AM 26/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: RANT WHATEVER you do - DON'T GO ADDING ANY NEW FUNKY HARDWARE!!! I just got a brand new ELSA GLADIAC 920 graphics card - built on the new nvidia Geoforce 3 chipset with 64mb on board DDR SDRAM! (I can hear any gamers going YU)!! So - slip it in to my (not a year old - PIII800 256M RAM Win2K) PC and the damn thing wont work - it switches video modes to go in to a game and turns the screen in to stand by mode (NOW THERE'S A BLACK SCREEN FOR YA!!)!! DAMN THING!! You then have to physically turn the machine off!! Support in their infinite wisdom told me to upgrade my 4in1 drivers for the chipset(VIA), and flash the BIOS(AWARD)! Not a very inviting solution - as a BIOS flash, if gone wrong, will fry your BIOS chip, meaning that you'll need a new motherboard! They then go on to tell me they won't support this. Call up PC support - any they won't support it either! So there I am raring to get my hands on the ultimate PC gamer experience, and decided to do as they recommend - I updated my VIA 4in1, and flashed the BIOS - and guess what - the f*$^r STILL WONT WORK!!! I installed the NVIDIA driver - nope.. Installed the Win2K SP2 - nope.. try to tweak the settings for screen res etc. - nope.. Made sure that there were no conflicts with IRQ's etc. - nope.. And at this very moment - IT STILL WON'T WORK!! DON'T GO THROUGH THE HASSLE!!! /RANT Totally off-topic I know as you wouldn't dream of playing games on a database server - but I needed to vent a little there - I've spent hours on this last night!! And will later I suppose.. Any graphics experts out there? PC support etc.? Mark (Gonna go and cry now) Leith -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 03:22 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HUMM, Our last unscheduled Unix down was due to the local power utility whereas the last unscheduled down on NT was due to the Blue screen of death (Ok, so the screen is Black on 2000). trim -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Re[2]: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I think I came across the route of the problem now. I have in fact installed all updated drivers from VIA, flashed the BIOS, switched IRQ's for my network card (it was in the adjacent PCI slot to the AGP slot) so there are no IRQ conflicts. I went on to the ELSA web support page, and discovered that if you want to run a GLADIAC 920 on a Win2K box, in 1024/768 resolution, your monitor needs to have a 120hz refresh rate. My (Shite) monitor (a Belinea 102010) only supports a 60hz refresh rate!! Now I'm not entirely sure about this, and don't have another monitor that supports this to hand to test my theory out - but I would think that if the card tried to overload the monitor with a 120hz refresh rate, when it is set to 60 this would infact cause the monitor to go in to standby to save frying the monitor? Am I right in presuming that? God I hope so!! This card as Ross pointed out is top of the range! Costing ?350!! If it doesn't work after I try a new monitor (More expense) heads will roll.. Not sure who's yet.. But OH BY GOD - HEADS WILL ROLL :) Thanks for the pointers any way guys.. I'll certainly keep you updated on the amount of people I blow away online in the Half Life/Counterstrike Modification!! G When I get it working.. Mark -Original Message- McLarty Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:50 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Hi Try checking out all of your drivers. A mate of mine recently purchased a new motherboard and Athlon 900, firstly it seemed to run like a dog, after a bit of looking around he found out that it was probably the VIA chipset, so on went the new drivers, seemed to run better but still not happy. Reinstalled OS with the new VIA drivers and ram great, all except for this strange occasional lockup. He found the cause by chance when he was moving house and fired up his system without the modem attached. System was running very well so he hooked up his modem to check some email and shortly later bang system lockup. Got the new USRobotics driver for his system and last I heard he was rockin. Peter At 08:55 AM 26/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: RANT WHATEVER you do - DON'T GO ADDING ANY NEW FUNKY HARDWARE!!! I just got a brand new ELSA GLADIAC 920 graphics card - built on the new nvidia Geoforce 3 chipset with 64mb on board DDR SDRAM! (I can hear any gamers going YU)!! So - slip it in to my (not a year old - PIII800 256M RAM Win2K) PC and the damn thing wont work - it switches video modes to go in to a game and turns the screen in to stand by mode (NOW THERE'S A BLACK SCREEN FOR YA!!)!! DAMN THING!! You then have to physically turn the machine off!! Support in their infinite wisdom told me to upgrade my 4in1 drivers for the chipset(VIA), and flash the BIOS(AWARD)! Not a very inviting solution - as a BIOS flash, if gone wrong, will fry your BIOS chip, meaning that you'll need a new motherboard! They then go on to tell me they won't support this. Call up PC support - any they won't support it either! So there I am raring to get my hands on the ultimate PC gamer experience, and decided to do as they recommend - I updated my VIA 4in1, and flashed the BIOS - and guess what - the f*$^r STILL WONT WORK!!! I installed the NVIDIA driver - nope.. Installed the Win2K SP2 - nope.. try to tweak the settings for screen res etc. - nope.. Made sure that there were no conflicts with IRQ's etc. - nope.. And at this very moment - IT STILL WON'T WORK!! DON'T GO THROUGH THE HASSLE!!! /RANT Totally off-topic I know as you wouldn't dream of playing games on a database server - but I needed to vent a little there - I've spent hours on this last night!! And will later I suppose.. Any graphics experts out there? PC support etc.? Mark (Gonna go and cry now) Leith -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 03:22 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HUMM, Our last unscheduled Unix down was due to the local power utility whereas the last unscheduled down on NT was due to the Blue screen of death (Ok, so the screen is Black on 2000). trim -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Mark, My only problem with GUI tools (and as an aside it was I believe Oracle's Migration GUI that failed for that member of the list) is that newbies use the tools and don't learn the underlying structure and data beneath them I think GUI tools are a great boon. If nothing else, it gives damagement a pretty screen to look at while I am working on something else :) Truly though, having a red light flash on a console to warn me of a lock is a good thing. In fact, the one incident I am thinking of, we were able to find the lock, clear it and have things back to normal as the phones starting ringing -- users calling to say Oracle is down. We were able to tell them to wait a minute or two and try again, it was fixed. Rachel From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:55:28 -0800 Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish), eating your doughnuts, drinking coffee, and slapping developers - what's the problem with them? Mark Disclaimer: This is in no way the view of my employer, just my own (probably stupid) opinion. -Original Message- Dayal Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:02 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) But then I remember someone complaining of GUI'ed tool not doing right Migration Job (after waiting for more than a day) for him right And that's the reason, the more you become familiar with Depths of Databases more you start hating those so called Easy to Use GUI Tools... My 50p ;-)) Rajesh OC DBA 88i -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Oh I agree As a newbie to the Oracle fold I found it oh so easy to dive into stuff with the DBA Studio, I suppose the thing that stops me is some 7 or more years hacking around Linux and Unix systems. Graphical tools are great for some things but you just cant beat the capabilities of a good script and Windows will be a lot better for it now it has a good scripting system. What i found DBA studio for thogh was the show SQL button I could set up some task to do and then have a look at the SQL that was going to happen so I could better understand it. I am sure when we start seeing more Oracle up on Win2K we will see a lot more scripting on that side to do those mixed OS and SQLPlus tasks. Peter McLarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04 0209 4238 System Administrator L plate Oracle DBA At 03:56 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them? No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number of database admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of a command line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can be great (except when they're written in java :), but you should actually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it before you start clicking a database to death. Just my cynical $.02. Cheers, GC -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: 24 x 7 on NT?
Interesting rambling, I had never seen a fault tree before but had in some way used one at times without understanding how to really use what i was doing, I will have to study these links some more Peter At 01:21 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss ?= the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with HP. And each failure takes about 2 hours to fix. Now at $1000 per minute of lost revenue that comes to $120,000. A dual server and OPS architecture would cost $190,000 just to acquire the hardware and software. Definitely not worth the expense since all of the failures we've had have been soft ones anyway. Dick Goulet this email lacks organization, as it is just notes from memory and searching. My experience in this are is somewhat dated - almost 20 years ago. One professor at CMU (G.J. Powers) covered failure mode analysis in the design of Chemical Process plants in an intro to ChemE course. Basically, the event was a human fataility, and the rule of 1 death in 20,000 man*years was the threshold. (circa 1983). He is a co-author of the Lapp-Powers algorithm. I was truly impressed by his use of heuristics as a general problem solving method. Here, the event may be the inability of a user connection via the internet to not connect withing 10 seconds, or the ability to provide business continuity via a disaster recovery site. http://www.drj.com is a good start for disaster recovery stuff - but that is off the topic. A google search on fault tree analysis or failure mode analysis turned up some interesting links. Look for the term Hazop as a term used for operability analysis in the Chemical Processing Industry for models. much of this type of research was accomplished during the US space program - Apollo missions in particular. handling LOX and having enriched oxygen atmospheres tends to make people pay attention to safety. also - a great deal of research in this area was accomplished in the nuclear power industry. links: NASA is usually a good one - http://www.sti.nasa.gov/new/fta34.html Sandia National Labs http://reliability.sandia.gov/Reliability/Fault_Tree_Analysis/fault_tree_analysis.html here's one commercial one - http://www.fault-tree.com/ http://www.high-availability.com/docs/index.htm basically, you want to perform a failure mode analysis and prepare a fault tree. interdependencies are especially important to cover, as an instability in one system can then cause rippling effects in other systems that are coupled (e.g. a DNS Server). events are classified as minor (+1) (loss of hard disk) and major (+10) (backhoe severs fiber-optic backbone of half of US). you'll need some sample figures for various components. MTTF (mean time to failure) MTBF (mean time between failure) MTTR (mean time to repair) couple that with component prices, and you should be able to produce a decent model for how to incrementally decrease chance of failure vs. additional cost of redundancy. The administrative costs of staff level of expertise, additional training, testing and documentation are more difficult to estimate. Don't under-estimate human factors as being the primary cause of various failures. Human Reliability Analysis is a good buzzword to describe this area. http://reliability.sandia.gov/Human_Factor_Engineering/Human_Reliability_Analysis/human_reliability_analysis.html Throw in an analysis as to what spares to have on hand also - vs. carrying tighter turn-around times from vendors in support agreements. This is something that I've been meaning to do for awhile. I'd bet that many a thesis has already been prepared in this area. an interesting link to a Fault-Tree analysis of Intrusion Detection: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/395103.html I've been told that much of the
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
More on the same vein. Sorry if this thread is developing a me too feel. I'm happy to use GUI tools when they save me time. I know what they're doing and how they achieve their results. The availability of GUI tools is however a huge disincentive for new DBAs to find out how the database actually works and leads to a lack of understanding of the way the beast works as a whole. If your goal is to be a knowledgeable and effective DBA then you can't beat starting from the command line and working your way towards GUI when you find your feet. That requires a long-term viewpoint though, and the world is focussing increasingly on the short term. If I sound like a Luddite then I've given the wrong impression; that;s just my 4 groats-worth. Regards, Mike |+- || Peter McLarty | || peter.mclarty@| || incts.com | || | || 06/27/01 01:30 | || PM | || Please respond | || to ORACLE-L| || | |+- -| | | | To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | cc: (bcc: Mike Hately/ETECH) | | Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? | -| Oh I agree As a newbie to the Oracle fold I found it oh so easy to dive into stuff with the DBA Studio, I suppose the thing that stops me is some 7 or more years hacking around Linux and Unix systems. Graphical tools are great for some things but you just cant beat the capabilities of a good script and Windows will be a lot better for it now it has a good scripting system. What i found DBA studio for thogh was the show SQL button I could set up some task to do and then have a look at the SQL that was going to happen so I could better understand it. I am sure when we start seeing more Oracle up on Win2K we will see a lot more scripting on that side to do those mixed OS and SQLPlus tasks. Peter McLarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04 0209 4238 System Administrator L plate Oracle DBA At 03:56 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them? No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number of database admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of a command line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can be great (except when they're written in java :), but you should actually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it before you start clicking a database to death. Just my cynical $.02. Cheers, GC -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001,Kevin Kostyszyn scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -Oooh...wow! Quick, maybe we should run out and convince 90% of the -business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe -dream and that the idea of trying to simplify our lives with the GUI is also -just a big fat waste of time. Then everyone can get rid of their computers -that have windows and Unix can take over the world. Yeah...archaic coding -at a monochrome terminal..jeez the future looks so bright -KK -:) hey! i resemble that remark!;-) i remember the first time i used one of those new fangled CRTs instead of the old ASR33! you could see a *whole page* at a time! talk about the bleeding edge.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it. -Former Vice President Dan Quayle -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Hi, The GUI is nice and very productive , but how an OS could pretend to be 24x7 when if you change configuration you must restart the computer. Regards, Antonio Belloni Sherman, Edward [EMAIL PROTECTED]@fatcity.com on 26/06/2001 19:42:48 Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: It isn't monochrome anymore... Really! :-) http://www.themes.org/php/pic.phtml?src=shots/990462645.jpg -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 6:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Oooh...wow! Quick, maybe we should run out and convince 90% of the business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe dream and that the idea of trying to simplify our lives with the GUI is also just a big fat waste of time. Then everyone can get rid of their computers that have windows and Unix can take over the world. Yeah...archaic coding at a monochrome terminal..jeez the future looks so bright KK :) * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Mike, i'm with you there. alter database datafile '/fill/in/name/here' resize 200m; or right click in OEM and change the size. As long as you can do the previous then might as well use the latter :) joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/27/01 09:26AM More on the same vein. Sorry if this thread is developing a "me too" feel.I'm happy to use GUI tools when they save me time. I know what they're doing andhow they achieve their results.The availability of GUI tools is however a huge disincentive for new DBAs tofind out how the database actually works and leads to a lack of understanding ofthe way the beast works as a whole.If your goal is to be a knowledgeable and effective DBA then you can't beatstarting from the command line and working your way towards GUI when you findyour feet. That requires a long-term viewpoint though, and the world isfocussing increasingly on the short term.If I sound like a Luddite then I've given the wrong impression; that;s just my 4groats-worth.Regards,Mike|+-| | Peter McLarty || | peter.mclarty@|| | incts.com || | || | 06/27/01 01:30 || | PM || | Please respond || | to ORACLE-L || | ||+- -| | | | To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cc: (bcc: Mike Hately/ETECH) | | Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? | -|Oh I agreeAs a newbie to the Oracle fold I found it oh so easy to dive intostuff with the DBA Studio, I suppose the thing that stops me is some 7 ormore years hacking around Linux and Unix systems. Graphical tools are greatfor some things but you just cant beat the capabilities of a good scriptand Windows will be a lot better for it now it has a good scripting system.What i found DBA studio for thogh was the show SQL button I could set upsome task to do and then have a look at the SQL that was going to happen soI could better understand it.I am sure when we start seeing more Oracle up on Win2K we will see a lotmore scripting on that side to do those mixed OS and SQLPlus tasks.Peter McLarty[EMAIL PROTECTED]04 0209 4238System AdministratorL plate Oracle DBAAt 03:56 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote:On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them?No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number ofdatabase admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of acommand line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can begreat (except when they're written in java :), but you shouldactually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it beforeyou start clicking a database to death.Just my cynical $.02.Cheers,GCPlease see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com--Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing ListsTo REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com-- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing ListsTo REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
EXACTLY!! I never say that a tool should be used instead of command line - I'm a great believer of having to know both - as there are pros and cons for both sides of the coin! There are times when the back end agent of a monitoring tool, monitoring on regular basis and alerting you by your mobile phone is a hell of a lot better. Other times you can only achieve what you need through a script.. I do have to say though, that a graphical interface to a database *can* be a great learning tool for a Jr. DBA, providing they have the right tool. As Peter pointed out, some tools will actually show you the SQL that they are going to submit to the database, thereby showing the Jr. what s/he is going to be sending to the database. If then, they are not sure what it is they are going to send to the database - and still send it anyway without even attempting to do a little research - IMO they are in the wrong job. If the tool is better still, you can review the SQL, and add anything else you feel might be needed, and still submit the script through the tool (for all the snr. DBAs). I actually use your situation in demos Rachel - We have a monitoring tool, which has a Blocked Sessions screen. This will show you in a flow chart picture the blocking session, and any blocked sessions. From there, simply double-click the blocker, and go in to a session detail, showing all locks, complete stats for the session (CPU, I/O, waits, blah, blah, blah), all SQL that they have executed that is in the SQLAREA, the current open cursor, and all of the users details - username, terminal name, program etc. Right Mouse Button, and kill the session once you know who it is - call them, tell them why you did it, and problem solved - usually BEFORE anybody calls you, as you typically find a user will wait a minute or two. The tool tells the DBA STRAIGHT AWAY, and will not wait for them to fire of a script. By that time you will have touched the keyboard ONCE (to enter a privileged user/pass to kill the session). How long would it take the average DBA to do this with scripts? I could do it in about 20-30 seconds with our tool.. It's all swings and roundabouts, and I've rambled enough now :) Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 01:57 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, My only problem with GUI tools (and as an aside it was I believe Oracle's Migration GUI that failed for that member of the list) is that newbies use the tools and don't learn the underlying structure and data beneath them I think GUI tools are a great boon. If nothing else, it gives damagement a pretty screen to look at while I am working on something else :) Truly though, having a red light flash on a console to warn me of a lock is a good thing. In fact, the one incident I am thinking of, we were able to find the lock, clear it and have things back to normal as the phones starting ringing -- users calling to say Oracle is down. We were able to tell them to wait a minute or two and try again, it was fixed. Rachel From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:55:28 -0800 Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish), eating your doughnuts, drinking coffee, and slapping developers - what's the problem with them? Mark Disclaimer: This is in no way the view of my employer, just my own (probably stupid) opinion. ---trim--- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I think GUI tools are a great boon. If nothing else, it gives damagement a pretty screen to look at while I am working on something else :) But isn't it better to let the damagement see me furiously typing at the keyboard? :-) If the damagement see you solved the problem by couple of clicks, he/she might think hmmm, that was easy. ;) Richard Ji From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:55:28 -0800 Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish), eating your doughnuts, drinking coffee, and slapping developers - what's the problem with them? Mark Disclaimer: This is in no way the view of my employer, just my own (probably stupid) opinion. -Original Message- Dayal Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:02 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) But then I remember someone complaining of GUI'ed tool not doing right Migration Job (after waiting for more than a day) for him right And that's the reason, the more you become familiar with Depths of Databases more you start hating those so called Easy to Use GUI Tools... My 50p ;-)) Rajesh OC DBA 88i -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Come on get real.. Who has had a Unix box for 88 years? Unless of course the box in a satellite circling the earth and the crossing of the dateline constitutes a day ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/26/01 03:18PM Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
no, THEY look at the screen, while I type away in any case, no matter what I do, they think it's easy. I think I do my job a little *too* well (kidding!) From: Richard Ji [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:16:16 -0800 I think GUI tools are a great boon. If nothing else, it gives damagement a pretty screen to look at while I am working on something else :) But isn't it better to let the damagement see me furiously typing at the keyboard? :-) If the damagement see you solved the problem by couple of clicks, he/she might think hmmm, that was easy. ;) Richard Ji From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:55:28 -0800 Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish), eating your doughnuts, drinking coffee, and slapping developers - what's the problem with them? Mark Disclaimer: This is in no way the view of my employer, just my own (probably stupid) opinion. -Original Message- Dayal Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:02 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) But then I remember someone complaining of GUI'ed tool not doing right Migration Job (after waiting for more than a day) for him right And that's the reason, the more you become familiar with Depths of Databases more you start hating those so called Easy to Use GUI Tools... My 50p ;-)) Rajesh OC DBA 88i -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have
RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
*VERY* Interesting! Thanks, Paul. (where is Eric?) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 5:21 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss ?= the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with HP. And each failure takes about 2 hours to fix. Now at $1000 per minute of lost revenue that comes to $120,000. A dual server and OPS architecture would cost $190,000 just to acquire the hardware and software. Definitely not worth the expense since all of the failures we've had have been soft ones anyway. Dick Goulet this email lacks organization, as it is just notes from memory and searching. My experience in this are is somewhat dated - almost 20 years ago. One professor at CMU (G.J. Powers) covered failure mode analysis in the design of Chemical Process plants in an intro to ChemE course. Basically, the event was a human fataility, and the rule of 1 death in 20,000 man*years was the threshold. (circa 1983). He is a co-author of the Lapp-Powers algorithm. I was truly impressed by his use of heuristics as a general problem solving method. Here, the event may be the inability of a user connection via the internet to not connect withing 10 seconds, or the ability to provide business continuity via a disaster recovery site. http://www.drj.com is a good start for disaster recovery stuff - but that is off the topic. A google search on fault tree analysis or failure mode analysis turned up some interesting links. Look for the term Hazop as a term used for operability analysis in the Chemical Processing Industry for models. much of this type of research was accomplished during the US space program - Apollo missions in particular. handling LOX and having enriched oxygen atmospheres tends to make people pay attention to safety. also - a great deal of research in this area was accomplished in the nuclear power industry. links: NASA is usually a good one - http://www.sti.nasa.gov/new/fta34.html Sandia National Labs http://reliability.sandia.gov/Reliability/Fault_Tree_Analysis/fault_tree_ana lysis.html here's one commercial one - http://www.fault-tree.com/ http://www.high-availability.com/docs/index.htm basically, you want to perform a failure mode analysis and prepare a fault tree. interdependencies are especially important to cover, as an instability in one system can then cause rippling effects in other systems that are coupled (e.g. a DNS Server). events are classified as minor (+1) (loss of hard disk) and major (+10) (backhoe severs fiber-optic backbone of half of US). you'll need some sample figures for various components. MTTF (mean time to failure) MTBF (mean time between failure) MTTR (mean time to repair) couple that with component prices, and you should be able to produce a decent model for how to incrementally decrease chance of failure vs. additional cost of redundancy. The administrative costs of staff level of expertise, additional training, testing and documentation are more difficult to estimate. Don't under-estimate human factors as being the primary cause of various failures. Human Reliability Analysis is a good buzzword to describe this area. http://reliability.sandia.gov/Human_Factor_Engineering/Human_Reliability_Ana lysis/human_reliability_analysis.html Throw in an analysis as to what spares to have on hand also - vs. carrying tighter turn-around times from vendors in support agreements. This is something that I've been meaning to do for awhile. I'd bet that many a thesis has already been prepared in this area. an interesting link to a Fault-Tree analysis of Intrusion Detection: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/395103.html I've been told that much of the Oracle high-avail is in korn shell - and downloadable. bibliography of texts in this area:
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Mark, You list ALL the SQL the blocker has or only the SQL that is doing the blocking? I've been looking for a tool that does the latter for a long time and never found one that can identify the statement, if other SQL has happened in the meantime Rachel From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:01:05 -0800 EXACTLY!! I never say that a tool should be used instead of command line - I'm a great believer of having to know both - as there are pros and cons for both sides of the coin! There are times when the back end agent of a monitoring tool, monitoring on regular basis and alerting you by your mobile phone is a hell of a lot better. Other times you can only achieve what you need through a script.. I do have to say though, that a graphical interface to a database *can* be a great learning tool for a Jr. DBA, providing they have the right tool. As Peter pointed out, some tools will actually show you the SQL that they are going to submit to the database, thereby showing the Jr. what s/he is going to be sending to the database. If then, they are not sure what it is they are going to send to the database - and still send it anyway without even attempting to do a little research - IMO they are in the wrong job. If the tool is better still, you can review the SQL, and add anything else you feel might be needed, and still submit the script through the tool (for all the snr. DBAs). I actually use your situation in demos Rachel - We have a monitoring tool, which has a Blocked Sessions screen. This will show you in a flow chart picture the blocking session, and any blocked sessions. From there, simply double-click the blocker, and go in to a session detail, showing all locks, complete stats for the session (CPU, I/O, waits, blah, blah, blah), all SQL that they have executed that is in the SQLAREA, the current open cursor, and all of the users details - username, terminal name, program etc. Right Mouse Button, and kill the session once you know who it is - call them, tell them why you did it, and problem solved - usually BEFORE anybody calls you, as you typically find a user will wait a minute or two. The tool tells the DBA STRAIGHT AWAY, and will not wait for them to fire of a script. By that time you will have touched the keyboard ONCE (to enter a privileged user/pass to kill the session). How long would it take the average DBA to do this with scripts? I could do it in about 20-30 seconds with our tool.. It's all swings and roundabouts, and I've rambled enough now :) Mark -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 01:57 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mark, My only problem with GUI tools (and as an aside it was I believe Oracle's Migration GUI that failed for that member of the list) is that newbies use the tools and don't learn the underlying structure and data beneath them I think GUI tools are a great boon. If nothing else, it gives damagement a pretty screen to look at while I am working on something else :) Truly though, having a red light flash on a console to warn me of a lock is a good thing. In fact, the one incident I am thinking of, we were able to find the lock, clear it and have things back to normal as the phones starting ringing -- users calling to say Oracle is down. We were able to tell them to wait a minute or two and try again, it was fixed. Rachel From: Mark Leith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:55:28 -0800 Oh I agree with what you are saying there - and that is EXACTLY why we don't deal with any tools that actually touch user data (unless you count reorganizing tables/tablespaces etc..). And I'm not sure which tool you are actually talking about, there are good and bad in the market place.. I personally have a wealth of GUI tools available to me - SQL Tuning/monitoring/management etc. and STILL revert to command line - as I simply want to learn more.. BUT I would have to say that a GUI tool will make a DBA more productive in their day to day work! There are few people I know that can throw together a script that monitors X, then evaluate the data that comes out of the a$$ end of it, in the time it takes to point and click a button, and watch the lovely pretty graph that that GUI piece of junk throws out for you.. I have never been a DBA (although that is probably where my heart is), but I do know that you guys are on extremely tight schedules, with a LOT to fit in to a day, and if you can have a lovely GUI tool that sits in background for you monitoring your database, and alert you when there IS a problem, leaving you to move on to more interesting stuff like tuning your database parameters (in command line if you wish
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Been running since 1913. Cool! In 1919 E. 0. Carissan (1880-1925) built a factoring machine http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/Papers/carissan.html -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Come on get real.. Who has had a Unix box for 88 years? Unless of course the box in a satellite circling the earth and the crossing of the dateline constitutes a day ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/26/01 03:18PM Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Arn't you going to make sure you actually have the disk space to resize that data file first? Something OEM does not do for you. Must go out to the server and check. -Original Message-From: JOE TESTA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 7:22 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Mike, i'm with you there. alter database datafile '/fill/in/name/here' resize 200m; or right click in OEM and change the size. As long as you can do the previous then might as well use the latter :) joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/27/01 09:26AM More on the same vein. Sorry if this thread is developing a "me too" feel.I'm happy to use GUI tools when they save me time. I know what they're doing andhow they achieve their results.The availability of GUI tools is however a huge disincentive for new DBAs tofind out how the database actually works and leads to a lack of understanding ofthe way the beast works as a whole.If your goal is to be a knowledgeable and effective DBA then you can't beatstarting from the command line and working your way towards GUI when you findyour feet. That requires a long-term viewpoint though, and the world isfocussing increasingly on the short term.If I sound like a Luddite then I've given the wrong impression; that;s just my 4groats-worth.Regards,Mike|+-| | Peter McLarty || | peter.mclarty@|| | incts.com || | || | 06/27/01 01:30 || | PM || | Please respond || | to ORACLE-L || | ||+- -| | | | To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cc: (bcc: Mike Hately/ETECH) | | Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? | -|Oh I agreeAs a newbie to the Oracle fold I found it oh so easy to dive intostuff with the DBA Studio, I suppose the thing that stops me is some 7 ormore years hacking around Linux and Unix systems. Graphical tools are greatfor some things but you just cant beat the capabilities of a good scriptand Windows will be a lot better for it now it has a good scripting system.What i found DBA studio for thogh was the show SQL button I could set upsome task to do and then have a look at the SQL that was going to happen soI could better understand it.I am sure when we start seeing more Oracle up on Win2K we will see a lotmore scripting on that side to do those mixed OS and SQLPlus tasks.Peter McLarty[EMAIL PROTECTED]04 0209 4238System AdministratorL plate Oracle DBAAt 03:56 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote:On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them?No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number ofdatabase admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of acommand line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can begreat (except when they're written in java :), but you shouldactually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it beforeyou start clicking a database to death.Just my cynical $.02.Cheers,GCPlease see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com--Author: Peter McLarty INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing ListsTo REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com-- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing ListsTo REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You mayalso send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
And I thought I was in a bad mood today. All nighter last night. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
True Fact: Unix was first invented in 1913 by my great great uncle (twice removed) Ralph Unix. Ralph worked with him as THE first DBA. I bet most of you didn't know that the Unix server Ralph is talking about is powered by steam engine! ;-) Defry - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:13 PM Come on get real.. Who has had a Unix box for 88 years? Unless of course the box in a satellite circling the earth and the crossing of the dateline constitutes a day ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/26/01 03:18PM Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mustafa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... Just my 50p :) Mark
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Jon, Just curiousity here, are you an Oracle DBA (certified or otherwise)? As for using a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own, well, you are right about that, but then it doesn't seem as if you need any help in introducing mistakes into your documents, as you've made plenty of spelling and puncuation errors on your own. Or were those deliberate? Mark stated that he wasn't a DBA, however, he has certainly contributed more to this list in answering database questions than you have. And he's managed to do so without being insulting or rude. And Ross has certainly met your hostility with grace and humor. If you had spent any time at all on this list, you would know that he IS proficient in Unix, and has done more digging into the OS and how things work than most Unix sysadmins I know. And yes,I actually know some. Many. You might want to do some research on the people you are insulting before you start, it's much less embarassing that way. Oh, and before you start to insult me, you might want to know some background information. I do not work on NT systems, but rather on Unix boxes. I have been an Oracle DBA for 10 years. I am not a fan by any means of the varied certification programs available, except perhaps for Cisco's certification program since they actually make you build something and then fix it after they break it. Rachel From: Jon Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:41:20 -0800 Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
John,oops JON, Sounds like someone 1) Woke up on the wrong side of their UNIX box and 2) Has no tolerance for anything not similar to their own way of thinking. I think most of us will agree that UNIX is heads a shoulders a better platform for MOST systems that run apps like Oracle, however, Windows does have its place and time. And not everyone who runs Oracle on NT/2k are idiots. We probably didn't make the OS choice, but are determined to make the best of the situation. And if you can get good reliablilty out of Oracle on NT, I would have to say you are a pretty good DBA/SysAd!!! Chuck Speaks, MCSE Database Administrator Lithonia Lighting 770-922-9000 x3450 http://www.lithonia.com -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Will everyone please drop the 24 x 7 from the subject?! I asked the question a few days ago and the discussion now has nothing to do with the question. Thanks to those who actually had input to the original question. Ron -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:57 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L And I thought I was in a bad mood today. All nighter last night. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001,Marty Bonner scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I just got a shiver down my spine as I realized... you got kicked off of -Slashdot, didn't you? Not playing nice with the rest of the kids? - -Anyhoo, your rhetoric is more appropriate for that forum than this one. -Maybe if you apologize, the rest of the kids will let you play with them -again. now don't go spoiling our fun just yet, we're just getting wound up on the boy.;-) kicked off slashdot? damn, even i couldn't do that one.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Kiss your keyboard goodbye! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001,Rachel Carmichael scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: - -As for using a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt -attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own, well, you are right -about that, but then it doesn't seem as if you need any help in introducing -mistakes into your documents, as you've made plenty of spelling and -puncuation errors on your own. Or were those deliberate? well that's not just for unix anymore.;-) i'm using one on my NT laptop. but i at least have the sense to run it through a spell checker... well most of the time anyway.;-) -You might want to do some research on the people you are insulting before -you start, it's much less embarassing that way. no if he did that he might be able to insult us with wit, grace and humor. it might ruin his style.;-) - -Oh, and before you start to insult me, you might want to know some -background information. I do not work on NT systems, but rather on Unix -boxes. I have been an Oracle DBA for 10 years. I am not a fan by any means -of the varied certification programs available, except perhaps for Cisco's -certification program since they actually make you build something and then -fix it after they break it. - -Rachel oh and what she didn't say is she is an internationally know author and presenter. we don't call her the goddess for nothing, dude.;-) now me on the other hand, i'm just a grunt DBA so insult away!;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Kiss your keyboard goodbye! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
It is sort of looking like he got kicked off of this one as well:) -Original Message- Bonner Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 3:15 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I just got a shiver down my spine as I realized... you got kicked off of Slashdot, didn't you? Not playing nice with the rest of the kids? Anyhoo, your rhetoric is more appropriate for that forum than this one. Maybe if you apologize, the rest of the kids will let you play with them again. From: Jon Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:41:20 -0800 Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Bad day man? Lighten up a little bit. Would be nice first to answer some Oracle questions posted on this list and then publish your opinion about idiots around there. Alex Hillman -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) The name is Jon. While Douglas Adams may have thought it to be 2nd rate, I believe it to be 3rd rate. Too much to handle? you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) Are you a genius or something? thanks for pointing that out. Thats correct, it was written w/ a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own ;) I'm sure you'll enjoy the new Smarttag features from Microsoft. Like having your information force fed to you? Doesnt look like you have a problem swallowing what microsoft has to say fatty :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Couldn't read about Linux on one of your MSDN sites? It may not be the best, but it certianly provides an environment far better than windows... that is if the startup needed it. If you remember, I dont think that Unix boxen are for everyone and every situation... just the mission critical ones (and I certianly wouldnt use Linux in a mission critical environment, but if you plan on big things in the future, you can atleast develope on a unix platform now :) LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. Ha ha. You go out and purchase some overpriced intel quad xeon machine to run your windows nt server on... and you arent even allowed to touch it ;) Way to go! You know it make me laugh how a whole lot of people out there moan about point and click technology - YET the business that I am in - third party GUI tools for databases - is BOOMING! So what is it? DBA's don't like a point click O/S - but one to help them with their job, is OK... No doubt in my mind that the vast majority of DBA's out there are also block headed 3rd rate I got my oracle certification idiots also, which I have no doubt that you are one. As for your comment it make me laugh all I can say to that is tarzan know how use point and click. Us go now Jane. My job may have been a tad bit more difficult to move into, but I know 20x what the average point and click pioneer does. Some of us are eager beavers to gain knowledge and do our jobs to the best of our ability, and some of us are using certificates/gui's to cover up for our lack of knowledge and general inability to learn :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Mark Leith wrote: I dont like to sit on my ass as others pass 3rd rate information about a 3rd rate os on to others... The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. Now I'm confused John - Is it a 2nd or 3rd rate O/S? :) By the way - that was the biggest damn paragraph I have seen in my life - you can't have written that on a Windoze box - it would have corrected it for you ! :) NOW - what about all those start-up companies that don't have oodles of venture capital? Should they go out and purchase a Sun server at vast expense compared to a few well set up Win2K boxes - and leave themselves in the shit with their bank balance? I Don't think so.. Can they still run their business proactively, and continue to grow and make money? Sure they can.. Just because they don't have a UNIX box sitting in the middle of their small enterprise world - does not mean that their business is going to fail? If you ask me - old Bill has done the small business world a favour!! He has allowed the small business to run corporate applications and databases on a more affordable platform. Maybe it isn't as stable - and you may get some down time - but I'm sure a small business is NOT going to be loosing ?20,000 an hour because of system downtime. What a lot of you guys on here have to remember is that not every company has money printed for them, people have to START somewhere. The bottom line has already been stated - you CAN make an NT/2000 box stable enough to run *most* of the time - you just have to know how to wine, dine, and treat it well. If this is what you want to achieve, don't go installing new crap on your database server every week. LEAVE THE THING ALONE - and let it do it's job. You know it make me laugh how a
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
S !! Alex is awake !!! ;-) - Kirti -Original Message- From: Hillman, Alex [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Bad day man? Lighten up a little bit. Would be nice first to answer some Oracle questions posted on this list and then publish your opinion about idiots around there. Alex Hillman -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? - now tell if sufficient free space exis
this is not elegant, but works: execute this is sqlplus: host (srvinfo -od ) disk_info.txt host blat disk_info.txt -to [EMAIL PROTECTED] which will provide you with output of the format: -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 3:48 PM To: log_files C$,NTFS,2048,1890,158 D$,NTFS,3099,2758,341 E$,NTFS,4095,3849,246 F$,NTFS,8190,7684,506 This does require that you have the utility blat.exe installed and in your path. hth, Paul Original Message Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:50:28 -0800 From: Kimberly Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Arn't you going to make sure you actually have the disk space to resize that data file first? SomethingOEM does not do for you. Must go out to the server and check. -Original Message- From: JOE TESTA [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 7:22 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? Mike, i'm with you there. alter database datafile '/fill/in/name/here' resize 200m; or right click in OEM and change the size. As long as you can do the previous then might as well use the latter :) joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/27/01 09:26AM More on the same vein. Sorry if this thread is developing a me too feel. I'm happy to use GUI tools when they save me time. I know what they're doing and how they achieve their results. The availability of GUI tools is however a huge disincentive for new DBAs to find out how the database actually works and leads to a lack of understanding of the way the beast works as a whole. If your goal is to be a knowledgeable and effective DBA then you can't beat starting from the command line and working your way towards GUI when you find your feet. That requires a long-term viewpoint though, and the world is focussing increasingly on the short term. If I sound like a Luddite then I've given the wrong impression; that;s just my 4 groats-worth. Regards, Mike |+- || Peter McLarty | || peter.mclarty@| || incts.com | || | || 06/27/01 01:30 | || PM | || Please respond | || to ORACLE-L| || | |+- -| | | | To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | cc: (bcc: Mike Hately/ETECH) | | Subject: Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? | -| Oh I agree As a newbie to the Oracle fold I found it oh so easy to dive into stuff with the DBA Studio, I suppose the thing that stops me is some 7 or more years hacking around Linux and Unix systems. Graphical tools are great for some things but you just cant beat the capabilities of a good script and Windows will be a lot better for it now it has a good scripting system. What i found DBA studio for thogh was the show SQL button I could set up some task to do and then have a look at the SQL that was going to happen so I could better understand it. I am sure when we start seeing more Oracle up on Win2K we will see a lot more scripting on that side to do those mixed OS and SQLPlus tasks. Peter McLarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04 0209 4238 System Administrator L plate Oracle DBA At 03:56 AM 27/06/2001 -0800, you wrote: On June 27, 2001 07:55 am, Mark Leith wrote: slapping developers - what's the problem with them? No problem slapping developers rather enjoy it actually The issue I have with point click is the increasing number of database admins who can only use these tools. Put them in front of a command line and they will sit and stare blankly. GUI tools can be great (except when they're written in java :), but you should actually know what you are doing and the 'how why' behind it before you start clicking a database to death. Just my cynical $.02. Cheers, GC -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Right on Rachel!! You go get'em girl. To add to the mix.. Some of the participants on this list are extremely knowledgeable and published. They are willing and able to offer assistance when the opportunity arises. All people are given the chance to voice their opinion and should do so with respect for all members on the list. If there is any personal gripe between members, please take it off line and get it straightened out. I personally would not like to see anyone offended and have them leave the list. The only losers then are the other members of the list. I only use the windoz products because it is the corporate os of choice right now. I am command line trained and prefer command line over pixels and flashy screens. I chose windoz for home use because it is easier for my wife to operate. Ron Rogers ROR mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/27/01 02:46PM Jon, Just curiousity here, are you an Oracle DBA (certified or otherwise)? As for using a text based mua on a sun machine, which doesnt attempt to correct mistakes, thus not creating its own, well, you are right about that, but then it doesn't seem as if you need any help in introducing mistakes into your documents, as you've made plenty of spelling and puncuation errors on your own. Or were those deliberate? Mark stated that he wasn't a DBA, however, he has certainly contributed more to this list in answering database questions than you have. And he's managed to do so without being insulting or rude. And Ross has certainly met your hostility with grace and humor. If you had spent any time at all on this list, you would know that he IS proficient in Unix, and has done more digging into the OS and how things work than most Unix sysadmins I know. And yes,I actually know some. Many. You might want to do some research on the people you are insulting before you start, it's much less embarassing that way. Oh, and before you start to insult me, you might want to know some background information. I do not work on NT systems, but rather on Unix boxes. I have been an Oracle DBA for 10 years. I am not a fan by any means of the varied certification programs available, except perhaps for Cisco's certification program since they actually make you build something and then fix it after they break it. Rachel -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Jon, slowly now - no - slower than that, take you hands away from the keyboard. carefully now, shutdown your machine. slowly back away from your desk. now run like hell for your car. go home, get a glass of lemonade, and find the nearest shady place. breath deeply. now, isn't that better? :) Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Wed, 27 Jun 2001,Marty Bonner scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I just got a shiver down my spine as I realized... you got kicked off of -Slashdot, didn't you? Not playing nice with the rest of the kids? - -Anyhoo, your rhetoric is more appropriate for that forum than this one. -Maybe if you apologize, the rest of the kids will let you play with them -again. now don't go spoiling our fun just yet, we're just getting wound up on the boy.;-) kicked off slashdot? damn, even i couldn't do that one.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Kiss your keyboard goodbye! -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mercadante, Thomas F INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On June 27, 2001 10:45 am, Thater, William wrote: -business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe dream ^^^ What do gui tools have to do with cows? -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On June 27, 2001 03:05 pm, Mustafa wrote: True Fact: Unix was first invented in 1913 by my great great uncle (twice removed) Ralph Unix. Ralph worked with him as THE first DBA. I bet most of you didn't know that the Unix server Ralph is talking about is powered by steam engine! ;-) simpsons reference ... of course, he had an onion tied to his belt, because that was the style of the time /simpsons reference Cheers, GC -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Gregory Conron INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: 24 x 7 on NT?
Hi Smith, As everyone in the list has rightly pointed out that NT is stable and may also lead to problems. I myself installed a 50gigs DB in aIBM Netfinity server with RAID 1+0 combination in MSCS. Even tough the client lost a datafile and was unable to restore the whole db. Instead they created DB and imported. IBM said HDD's are sound. Oracle support said HDD problem, after analysing the trace file and dump. So make sure u have good backup's and ensure min down time for the system. Make sure u have a good sysadmin who know in and out of NT. HTH Venkat -- On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:06:59 Smith, Ron L. wrote: I have a treasury application that needs to be up 24 x 7 except for scheduled downtime. Is there any way to guarantee an app will be available 24 x 7 on NT? Is anyone faced with this? Ron Smith Database Administration [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Smith, Ron L. INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: C.S.Venkata Subramanian INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Bruce, great reply! great points to ponder! Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ron, I'm going to say that it might be possible with some provisions. eg - what does 24*7 actually mean in your context: I believe 99% uptime gives 87 hours down per year whilst 99.% uptime gives half a minute downtime per year. Which end of the spectrum are you after? I have an NT Oracle server that has been up for 271 days without any reboots. So is it possible - yes, is it normal - probably not. As Tom said, don't install new software regularly (ie not at all unless its critical). Have a separate test machine and probably a separate development machine - ideally exactly same hardware. Obviously for a single machine you will have hardware RAID. But disk controllers might be a point of redundancy so have dual controllers with automatic failover of RAID sets between the controllers. Have hot swappable components - get written guarantees from the hardware supplier AND the hardware maintenance suppliers that everything is hot swappable AND that they will make use of the hot swappability when they replace failed components (yes we've been caught out here). But, this probably will still leave you (at least in the NT world) with CPU, memory and motherboard that can not be replaced unless you take the server down. So perhaps you need a second machine. What type of failover do you want / need to this machine - this will depend upon your real uptime requirements - how much does a minute of downtime really cost? You will want remote management software that works via dial-in (eg PC Anywhere, VNC or ???) and I would recommend some sort of hardware remote control as well that works without NT and allows remote power up / power down (eg DELL DRAC card). Maybe you want OPS - but still shared disks and in the same room if you use standard NT clustering. Maybe just clustering plus Oracle failsafe? Maybe you need an NT clustering environment that has replicated disks at a remote data site. Maybe a remote standby server will meet your requirements. Maybe all you need is an identical server that you can manually swap the drives with and you have a luke-warm redundant server. Are you going to use a normal variant of NT (eg NT4 Server, 2000 Advanced Server) or are you going to look into Datacentre server? Have a look at http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/server/evaluation/business/overview/rel iable/default.asp. Don't forget other points that are applicable regardless of the server OS - eg can your application provide 24*7, how will you do application upgrades, how will you do Oracle upgrades, do you need dual network cards, maybe even dual network hubs - all this relates back to how much does downtime really cost you? I hope this helps and will be interested to hear your final decision. And if you're interested - we have a NT forms application that runs 24 * 7 on NT (as in it is used interactively by operators 24 hours a day, every day of the year), but our application uptime requirement is probably something like 99.8%, we don't have a cluster, but we do have an identical server that can run the application, and we are currently running NT4. We have to shut the application down to do application upgrades and they occur every few weeks. Regards, Bruce Reardon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2001 6:36 Ron, my experience has been that it all depends. If your NT server is being administered by a sane, conservative SA, who does not treat it like a desktop machine (hey, lets downloaded the latest free Java tool), then it might suffice. It also depends on the load you will be asking it to support. Generally, I have found that the machines run reasonably well if people would set them up correctly and then leave them alone. Hope this helps. Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:07 PM I have a treasury application that needs to be up 24 x 7 except for scheduled downtime. Is there any way to guarantee an app will be available 24 x 7 on NT? Is anyone faced with this? Ron Smith Database Administration [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Reardon, Bruce (CALBBAY) INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
Re: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re[2]: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
HUMM, Our last unscheduled Unix down was due to the local power utility whereas the last unscheduled down on NT was due to the Blue screen of death (Ok, so the screen is Black on 2000). Reply Separator Author: Thater; William [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/26/2001 5:25 AM On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: RE: RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss = the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with HP. And each failure takes about 2 hours to fix. Now at $1000 per minute of lost revenue that comes to $120,000. A dual server and OPS architecture would cost $190,000 just to acquire the hardware and software. Definitely not worth the expense since all of the failures we've had have been soft ones anyway. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Mohan; Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/25/2001 4:56 PM Wow. They must have known it was you, Dick! G solast Aprilproceeding scientifically, that's less than one crash a year...better than five nines, right? ;- -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:47 PM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ross, I've had Dell's site crash on me before, last April right in the middle of customizing a system. They apologized, but I went with Gateway anyway. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Mohan; Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/25/2001 1:12 PM Somebody should let Dell know. www.dell.com They run on NT. When's the last time you heard about their site being out? A $40 Billion company can't be all wrong about NT, can it? -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:58 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OK, after my vacation, I'll wade back into the fray!! Ron, To start with I do not believe it possible to guarantee that NT will be up 24x7, never mind Oracle. That is the main reason that we use Oracle ONLY on Unix (in one flavor or another) here. All of our NT servers require a periodic unscheduled reboot, otherwise they do the unscheduled crash under Murphy's rules. Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: Kevin Kostyszyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/25/2001 12:31 PM Wow what a can of worms that has just been opened!!! KK:) -Original Message- L. Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 4:07 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I have a treasury application that needs to be up 24 x 7 except for scheduled downtime. Is there any way to guarantee an app will be available 24 x 7 on NT? Is anyone faced with this? Ron Smith Database Administration [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Smith, Ron L. INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing
RE: Re[2]: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Well, I betcha the reliability of NT2K and unix is very similar, given high level of SA competence and following good system engineering procedures. Anecdotal failure tales ( like Sun on Ebay, or any of the other Unix failures on NASDAQ, etc. ) are more than a bit similar to a game of telephone. Time will tell, in any case. For my money, NT is a good operating system, if administered with some seriousness. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:22 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HUMM, Our last unscheduled Unix down was due to the local power utility whereas the last unscheduled down on NT was due to the Blue screen of death (Ok, so the screen is Black on 2000). Reply Separator Author: Thater; William [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 6/26/2001 5:25 AM On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
We are running Oracle on a clustered Unisys Aquanta system and have had very few problems. I can only think of one time this year that I had unplanned downtime. The database files are on shared drives and the database software is installed on two nodes, allowing us to switch to node B in the event of node A's failure. I did not pick NT but it has worked out so far. Mike -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:06 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Can you explain redundant server/databases? Ron -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 8:21 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Believe it or not we do run two mission critical 7x24 databases on NT with few problems. The one system that is 'life and death' critical we run redundant servers/databases just in case. Debbie -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 2:07 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I have a treasury application that needs to be up 24 x 7 except for scheduled downtime. Is there any way to guarantee an app will be available 24 x 7 on NT? Is anyone faced with this? Ron Smith Database Administration [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Smith, Ron L. INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: IT - Database (Do Not Use) INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Smith, Ron L. INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Bond Mike A Contr OC-ALC/TILC INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Well, my UNIX box would probably run forever except that the DDS3 tape changer can't seem to last a whole year without breaking. Need to shut the machine down to replace the tape changer. I'm hoping to get lucky this year. Only 120 days till victory! # uptime 12:09 pm up 245 days, 1:01, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.48, 0.70 -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: RE: RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Ross Mohan for president! Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen. Christopher R. Spence Oracle DBA Fuelspot -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am hearing such amazing storiesrunning for seven years no failures in 4 years.never any failures except when the NT administrator brought down the power grid, etc. I am not an old hand, nor am I a greenhorn, but in my experience, real, live production systems ( e.g. more than 100 users, round the clock availability, frequent software updates...hardware adds to account for growth, etc. ) just don't run for four years without any downtime. I have never seen this. New systems have bugs shaken outold systems have legacy MTBF hiccupsall systems need occasional hw/sw tweaks to accomodate unplanned business needs. Now, if you factor OUT *scheduled* maintenance, then, hell, ANY system can stay up for months...years...decades. And, guess what? If you're NOT upgrading application or system software, or patching firmware or doing OS upgrades, it's not what I'd call a live production system. Hell, my HP calculator has been running whenever I want it, nonstop, since 1987. As for running Nuclear stuff, I would NEVER run Oracle or Unix or NT for ANYTHING to do with Nuclear stuff ( missiles or power ). Oh My God. Please don't tell me any more about that. Even Oracle Corp says don't use our stuff in places where people's lives are directly at stake. (But that's just me.) Lastly, this business about being down for one minute costs us 12 Million dollars is bohunk is most every case. There just isn't the data to support that. Yea, sure, maybe the a site's average intake is 12 Million during a typical one hour outage (that one site out of a million) but how many of those spurned customers come back? Most of them! Me, I can't get my book at Amazon, I just do something else and come back. ditto for my memory upgrade at Micron, or my tech info at Metalink. This lost business argument is weak or NONEXISTENT in EVERY instantiation I have seen of it. Also, a site being down can be anything...network...front line web servers...' back end databasesintermediate LDAP serversand the user ( that's you and I ) have NO WAY OF KNOWING for sure what failed. Ok...Ebay went down, repeatedly. They have IIS front end servers (which have not failed) and backend oracle databases on Sun E10K (which did). NASDAQ's reconciliation system just went down a few weeks ago ( Unix ) But that is a case where I have a mix of good press and backend information. As you note, most sites won't fess up. I happen to work for a government client where we have aging Unix database servers of about five or six different flavors ( Siemens, DEC, Sun, Sequent, etc.) that are pushed to their limits, feebly configured, and poorly maintained (due to damagement downtime procedures) but very tightly maintained NT servers (due to my company's downtime procedures ) and know what? My desktop has gone down ONCE in two years. The mail servers for a 1000 user exchange system with 50 Mbytes per user mailboxes has NEVER gone down in two years. The unix boxes have hiccuped on disk...on memory...on oracle bugs. It's just too easy ( and too wrong ) to say NT Sucks or Solaris Rules or somesuch. (Not that you are, butsadly, many do) Bottomline, I agree with you: If Management REALLY wants 24x7, then I just smile, and explain the costs to them. Before you know it, there are scheduled hardware maintenance windows, oracle tuning/patching downtime, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:58 AM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss = the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with
RE: Re[2]: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Mark! This is cool...you got the bleeding edge so far out it's amazing MaximumPC has had some great articles on the Ge3 technology...programmable textures, in hardware... amazing having said that, the number one ( and two, and three and four ) problems with NT is that, in supporting ten thousand different pieces of hardware, there are bound to be bad drivers in the mix. Add to that your purchase of the absolute latest and greatest andshrug... you could have expected this. I would check with ELSA daily on drivers. They'll figure it out! And then, we expect updates on the gaming! Ross -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:56 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RANT WHATEVER you do - DON'T GO ADDING ANY NEW FUNKY HARDWARE!!! I just got a brand new ELSA GLADIAC 920 graphics card - built on the new nvidia Geoforce 3 chipset with 64mb on board DDR SDRAM! (I can hear any gamers going YU)!! So - slip it in to my (not a year old - PIII800 256M RAM Win2K) PC and the damn thing wont work - it switches video modes to go in to a game and turns the screen in to stand by mode (NOW THERE'S A BLACK SCREEN FOR YA!!)!! DAMN THING!! You then have to physically turn the machine off!! Support in their infinite wisdom told me to upgrade my 4in1 drivers for the chipset(VIA), and flash the BIOS(AWARD)! Not a very inviting solution - as a BIOS flash, if gone wrong, will fry your BIOS chip, meaning that you'll need a new motherboard! They then go on to tell me they won't support this. Call up PC support - any they won't support it either! So there I am raring to get my hands on the ultimate PC gamer experience, and decided to do as they recommend - I updated my VIA 4in1, and flashed the BIOS - and guess what - the f*$^r STILL WONT WORK!!! I installed the NVIDIA driver - nope.. Installed the Win2K SP2 - nope.. try to tweak the settings for screen res etc. - nope.. Made sure that there were no conflicts with IRQ's etc. - nope.. And at this very moment - IT STILL WON'T WORK!! DON'T GO THROUGH THE HASSLE!!! /RANT Totally off-topic I know as you wouldn't dream of playing games on a database server - but I needed to vent a little there - I've spent hours on this last night!! And will later I suppose.. Any graphics experts out there? PC support etc.? Mark (Gonna go and cry now) Leith -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 03:22 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L HUMM, Our last unscheduled Unix down was due to the local power utility whereas the last unscheduled down on NT was due to the Blue screen of death (Ok, so the screen is Black on 2000). trim -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mark Leith INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've -got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that -much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've -been lucky. - -|| You've had FORTY databases up for more than a year??? Color me -incredulous. nope 40 unix boxen, only 25 databases. - -|| What's the story with yer sig? - --- -Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA -***== Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. -- Kulawiec - one of the cookies from my file. i have a program that shooses one at random and inserts it into my .sig. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
lolI just quote the Groucho Marx line: I wouldn't want to be in any club that would have people like me as a member. ;- -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:31 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ross Mohan for president! Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen. Christopher R. Spence Oracle DBA Fuelspot -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am hearing such amazing storiesrunning for seven years no failures in 4 years.never any failures except when the NT administrator brought down the power grid, etc. I am not an old hand, nor am I a greenhorn, but in my experience, real, live production systems ( e.g. more than 100 users, round the clock availability, frequent software updates...hardware adds to account for growth, etc. ) just don't run for four years without any downtime. I have never seen this. New systems have bugs shaken outold systems have legacy MTBF hiccupsall systems need occasional hw/sw tweaks to accomodate unplanned business needs. Now, if you factor OUT *scheduled* maintenance, then, hell, ANY system can stay up for months...years...decades. And, guess what? If you're NOT upgrading application or system software, or patching firmware or doing OS upgrades, it's not what I'd call a live production system. Hell, my HP calculator has been running whenever I want it, nonstop, since 1987. As for running Nuclear stuff, I would NEVER run Oracle or Unix or NT for ANYTHING to do with Nuclear stuff ( missiles or power ). Oh My God. Please don't tell me any more about that. Even Oracle Corp says don't use our stuff in places where people's lives are directly at stake. (But that's just me.) Lastly, this business about being down for one minute costs us 12 Million dollars is bohunk is most every case. There just isn't the data to support that. Yea, sure, maybe the a site's average intake is 12 Million during a typical one hour outage (that one site out of a million) but how many of those spurned customers come back? Most of them! Me, I can't get my book at Amazon, I just do something else and come back. ditto for my memory upgrade at Micron, or my tech info at Metalink. This lost business argument is weak or NONEXISTENT in EVERY instantiation I have seen of it. Also, a site being down can be anything...network...front line web servers...' back end databasesintermediate LDAP serversand the user ( that's you and I ) have NO WAY OF KNOWING for sure what failed. Ok...Ebay went down, repeatedly. They have IIS front end servers (which have not failed) and backend oracle databases on Sun E10K (which did). NASDAQ's reconciliation system just went down a few weeks ago ( Unix ) But that is a case where I have a mix of good press and backend information. As you note, most sites won't fess up. I happen to work for a government client where we have aging Unix database servers of about five or six different flavors ( Siemens, DEC, Sun, Sequent, etc.) that are pushed to their limits, feebly configured, and poorly maintained (due to damagement downtime procedures) but very tightly maintained NT servers (due to my company's downtime procedures ) and know what? My desktop has gone down ONCE in two years. The mail servers for a 1000 user exchange system with 50 Mbytes per user mailboxes has NEVER gone down in two years. The unix boxes have hiccuped on disk...on memory...on oracle bugs. It's just too easy ( and too wrong ) to say NT Sucks or Solaris Rules or somesuch. (Not that you are, butsadly, many do) Bottomline, I agree with you: If Management REALLY wants 24x7, then I just smile, and explain the costs to them. Before you know it, there are scheduled hardware maintenance windows, oracle tuning/patching downtime, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:58 AM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost,
RE: RE: RE: RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I am hearing such amazing storiesrunning for seven years no failures in 4 years.never any failures except when the NT administrator brought down the power grid, etc. I am not an old hand, nor am I a greenhorn, but in my experience, real, live production systems ( e.g. more than 100 users, round the clock availability, frequent software updates...hardware adds to account for growth, etc. ) just don't run for four years without any downtime. I have never seen this. New systems have bugs shaken outold systems have legacy MTBF hiccupsall systems need occasional hw/sw tweaks to accomodate unplanned business needs. Now, if you factor OUT *scheduled* maintenance, then, hell, ANY system can stay up for months...years...decades. And, guess what? If you're NOT upgrading application or system software, or patching firmware or doing OS upgrades, it's not what I'd call a live production system. Hell, my HP calculator has been running whenever I want it, nonstop, since 1987. As for running Nuclear stuff, I would NEVER run Oracle or Unix or NT for ANYTHING to do with Nuclear stuff ( missiles or power ). Oh My God. Please don't tell me any more about that. Even Oracle Corp says don't use our stuff in places where people's lives are directly at stake. (But that's just me.) Lastly, this business about being down for one minute costs us 12 Million dollars is bohunk is most every case. There just isn't the data to support that. Yea, sure, maybe the a site's average intake is 12 Million during a typical one hour outage (that one site out of a million) but how many of those spurned customers come back? Most of them! Me, I can't get my book at Amazon, I just do something else and come back. ditto for my memory upgrade at Micron, or my tech info at Metalink. This lost business argument is weak or NONEXISTENT in EVERY instantiation I have seen of it. Also, a site being down can be anything...network...front line web servers...' back end databasesintermediate LDAP serversand the user ( that's you and I ) have NO WAY OF KNOWING for sure what failed. Ok...Ebay went down, repeatedly. They have IIS front end servers (which have not failed) and backend oracle databases on Sun E10K (which did). NASDAQ's reconciliation system just went down a few weeks ago ( Unix ) But that is a case where I have a mix of good press and backend information. As you note, most sites won't fess up. I happen to work for a government client where we have aging Unix database servers of about five or six different flavors ( Siemens, DEC, Sun, Sequent, etc.) that are pushed to their limits, feebly configured, and poorly maintained (due to damagement downtime procedures) but very tightly maintained NT servers (due to my company's downtime procedures ) and know what? My desktop has gone down ONCE in two years. The mail servers for a 1000 user exchange system with 50 Mbytes per user mailboxes has NEVER gone down in two years. The unix boxes have hiccuped on disk...on memory...on oracle bugs. It's just too easy ( and too wrong ) to say NT Sucks or Solaris Rules or somesuch. (Not that you are, butsadly, many do) Bottomline, I agree with you: If Management REALLY wants 24x7, then I just smile, and explain the costs to them. Before you know it, there are scheduled hardware maintenance windows, oracle tuning/patching downtime, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:58 AM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a separate server and be running OPS. What is the cost, what is the expected frequency, and is the loss = the cost?? Good questions, but only you can provide the answers. In the case we have here, out HP's fail once every 4 years on average over the 10+ years of history we have with HP. And each failure takes about 2 hours to fix. Now at $1000 per minute of lost revenue that comes to $120,000. A dual server and OPS architecture would cost $190,000 just to acquire the hardware and software. Definitely not worth the expense since all of the failures
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, my UNIX box would probably run forever except that the DDS3 tape changer can't seem to last a whole year without breaking. Need to shut the machine down to replace the tape changer. I'm hoping to get lucky this year. Only 120 days till victory! # uptime 12:09 pm up 245 days, 1:01, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.48, 0.70 -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Mohan, Ross INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: RE: RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
My life would be hanging by a pregnant chad. That would be hard to explain to my Mum. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:53 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L GOOD LORD ROSS!!! I second it. KK -Original Message- Spence Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:31 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ross Mohan for president! Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen. Christopher R. Spence Oracle DBA Fuelspot -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am hearing such amazing storiesrunning for seven years no failures in 4 years.never any failures except when the NT administrator brought down the power grid, etc. I am not an old hand, nor am I a greenhorn, but in my experience, real, live production systems ( e.g. more than 100 users, round the clock availability, frequent software updates...hardware adds to account for growth, etc. ) just don't run for four years without any downtime. I have never seen this. New systems have bugs shaken outold systems have legacy MTBF hiccupsall systems need occasional hw/sw tweaks to accomodate unplanned business needs. Now, if you factor OUT *scheduled* maintenance, then, hell, ANY system can stay up for months...years...decades. And, guess what? If you're NOT upgrading application or system software, or patching firmware or doing OS upgrades, it's not what I'd call a live production system. Hell, my HP calculator has been running whenever I want it, nonstop, since 1987. As for running Nuclear stuff, I would NEVER run Oracle or Unix or NT for ANYTHING to do with Nuclear stuff ( missiles or power ). Oh My God. Please don't tell me any more about that. Even Oracle Corp says don't use our stuff in places where people's lives are directly at stake. (But that's just me.) Lastly, this business about being down for one minute costs us 12 Million dollars is bohunk is most every case. There just isn't the data to support that. Yea, sure, maybe the a site's average intake is 12 Million during a typical one hour outage (that one site out of a million) but how many of those spurned customers come back? Most of them! Me, I can't get my book at Amazon, I just do something else and come back. ditto for my memory upgrade at Micron, or my tech info at Metalink. This lost business argument is weak or NONEXISTENT in EVERY instantiation I have seen of it. Also, a site being down can be anything...network...front line web servers...' back end databasesintermediate LDAP serversand the user ( that's you and I ) have NO WAY OF KNOWING for sure what failed. Ok...Ebay went down, repeatedly. They have IIS front end servers (which have not failed) and backend oracle databases on Sun E10K (which did). NASDAQ's reconciliation system just went down a few weeks ago ( Unix ) But that is a case where I have a mix of good press and backend information. As you note, most sites won't fess up. I happen to work for a government client where we have aging Unix database servers of about five or six different flavors ( Siemens, DEC, Sun, Sequent, etc.) that are pushed to their limits, feebly configured, and poorly maintained (due to damagement downtime procedures) but very tightly maintained NT servers (due to my company's downtime procedures ) and know what? My desktop has gone down ONCE in two years. The mail servers for a 1000 user exchange system with 50 Mbytes per user mailboxes has NEVER gone down in two years. The unix boxes have hiccuped on disk...on memory...on oracle bugs. It's just too easy ( and too wrong ) to say NT Sucks or Solaris Rules or somesuch. (Not that you are, butsadly, many do) Bottomline, I agree with you: If Management REALLY wants 24x7, then I just smile, and explain the costs to them. Before you know it, there are scheduled hardware maintenance windows, oracle tuning/patching downtime, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:58 AM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Dear Jon, I'll get back to you when my priorities become io throughput, but right now...shaking mouseI am having trouble... banging mouse on desk...getting this darn application... clicking mouse on monitor...to worksheesh! Good thing I am an MCSE and CISCO Certified, too! :-D Right now, though, I have to get back to running my nanokernel SuSE on my IBM Linux WristWatch with realtime extensions to download the Ricochet out-of-band GPS codes to help decode the PNG data in the Secret Slurpee Web Site. Talk about multi-pathing! slapping knee Wh-! I always liked SuSE's little nanokernel! silly giggle Didn't you? Yours in WareZ, Dude, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:14 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some patches before some script kiddies nail my ass :) Are you sure that there arent a few extra digits in that uptime there bud? ;) We could invent more reasonable values that pre-epoch (hell, even pre-digital computer) in the future. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, my UNIX box would probably run forever except that the DDS3 tape changer can't seem to last a whole year without breaking. Need to shut the machine down to replace the tape changer. I'm hoping to get lucky this year. Only 120 days till victory! # uptime 12:09 pm up 245 days, 1:01, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.48, 0.70 -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
The best part about this post is, is that when the original thread was posted I KNEW it would turn into this:) hehehheh KK -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Kevin Kostyszyn INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Oooh...wow! Quick, maybe we should run out and convince 90% of the business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe dream and that the idea of trying to simplify our lives with the GUI is also just a big fat waste of time. Then everyone can get rid of their computers that have windows and Unix can take over the world. Yeah...archaic coding at a monochrome terminal..jeez the future looks so bright KK :) -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some patches before some script kiddies nail my ass :) Are you sure that there arent a few extra digits in that uptime there bud? ;) We could invent more reasonable values that pre-epoch (hell, even pre-digital computer) in the future. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, my UNIX box would probably run forever except that the DDS3 tape changer can't seem to last a whole year without breaking. Need to shut the machine down to replace the tape changer. I'm hoping to get lucky this year. Only 120 days till victory! # uptime 12:09 pm up 245 days, 1:01, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.48, 0.70 -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
(sarcasm noted) but my question to those reporting high uptime measurements is: that measure isn't a measurement of database availability or application uptime... is it? so what, you've got a machine that's been up 32,000 days. what does it do? that would be my first question. which isn't really relevant to this post. i'm no unix guru but i do have experience with a variety of systems and i agree with some of your sentiments, imo it all boils down to the quality of your people and design/planning. if you have qualified, caring, and pro-active people who take the time to research, plan, implement and support systems the right way; you'll limit issues and problems, but there's no way you can plan for everything. in a perfect world... never mind. i understand that unix is a more developed platform than NT and i'm indifferent on which is better, but i don't think you should blast NT because the wealth of your knowledge is on *Nix. the original post asked for 24 x 7 on NT? as i said before, if you build from the ground up taking into consideration your environment you can supply the high-availability you require. it's more than hardware, operating systems, and people... that's just my take on it. i'm nobody, i'm still struggling with understanding some of the basic components of an oracle database but that's my story and i'm sticking to it. === Lerone Streeter System Analyst Abbott LBG [EMAIL PROTECTED] === -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load average: 0.019, 0.008, 0.00070 So, obviously, NT sucks. dusting off hands. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, my UNIX box would probably run forever except that the DDS3 tape changer can't seem to last a whole year without breaking. Need to shut the machine down to replace the tape changer. I'm hoping to get lucky this year. Only 120 days till victory! # uptime 12:09 pm up 245 days, 1:01, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.48, 0.70 -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:26 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Mon, 25 Jun 2001,Mohan, Ross scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: -I agree with His Chrisness on this one. - -If the avg(NT Admin) avg(Unix Admin), we'd -all be reading this mail on Window's boxes. -Er.what I mean to say is.. - -sly grin - -but, in all seriousnesswhen there is a way -to find a *very good* NT admin out of all the -Wendy's employees, then NT boxes will be up -4 or 5 nines, easy. - -Besides guys, five nines means you're down -about FIVE MINUTES a year. - -Now, how many of the Unix boxes on this list -have done that this year? I bet less than -one percent. well, then there must be a whole lot of unix boxes out there because we've got 40 of them right here. i'd say all of my 32 databases have been up that much too, but i've only had 25 of them up a whole year.;-) yup, i know i've been lucky. -- Bill Shrek Thater Certifiable ORACLE DBA Telergy, Inc.[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ You gotta program like you don't need the money, You gotta compile like you'll never get hurt, You gotta run like there's nobody watching, It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to work. ~~ Expert systems are built to embody the knowledge of human experts. - Kulawiec -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
bowing Thanks for the kudos, Jon. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:34 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I see you've picked up some buzzwords like PNG, GPS, nanokernel, and no doubt warez where you got caught trading animal ascii porn through || Here's some new tricks for you, Master Downloader: http://www.bbspot.com/Features/2001/06/cruise_quiz.php your company e-mail by a bored sysadmin who had nothing better to do than to snoop on users. As for the MCSE and CISCO certified part, I cant tell if thats your attempt at sarcasm or pride :) Nice job on using multi-pathing in a completly different context though... glad to know that someone is still thinks themselves 31337. TH4NX, j0n The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Dear Jon, I'll get back to you when my priorities become io throughput, but right now...shaking mouseI am having trouble... banging mouse on desk...getting this darn application... clicking mouse on monitor...to worksheesh! Good thing I am an MCSE and CISCO Certified, too! :-D Right now, though, I have to get back to running my nanokernel SuSE on my IBM Linux WristWatch with realtime extensions to download the Ricochet out-of-band GPS codes to help decode the PNG data in the Secret Slurpee Web Site. Talk about multi-pathing! slapping knee Wh-! I always liked SuSE's little nanokernel! silly giggle Didn't you? Yours in WareZ, Dude, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:14 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some patches before some script kiddies nail my ass :) Are you sure that there arent a few extra digits in that uptime there bud? ;) We could invent more reasonable values that pre-epoch (hell, even pre-digital computer) in the future. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott
RE: RE: RE: RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
Yeah. Check out http://www.ucomics.com/tomthedancingbug/viewtd.cfm?uc_fn=1uc_full_date=2001 0609uc_daction=Puc_comic=td I think there is room to add a pony-tailed Hannibal. Henry -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 1:31 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ross Mohan for president! Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen. Christopher R. Spence Oracle DBA Fuelspot -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I am hearing such amazing storiesrunning for seven years no failures in 4 years.never any failures except when the NT administrator brought down the power grid, etc. I am not an old hand, nor am I a greenhorn, but in my experience, real, live production systems ( e.g. more than 100 users, round the clock availability, frequent software updates...hardware adds to account for growth, etc. ) just don't run for four years without any downtime. I have never seen this. New systems have bugs shaken outold systems have legacy MTBF hiccupsall systems need occasional hw/sw tweaks to accomodate unplanned business needs. Now, if you factor OUT *scheduled* maintenance, then, hell, ANY system can stay up for months...years...decades. And, guess what? If you're NOT upgrading application or system software, or patching firmware or doing OS upgrades, it's not what I'd call a live production system. Hell, my HP calculator has been running whenever I want it, nonstop, since 1987. As for running Nuclear stuff, I would NEVER run Oracle or Unix or NT for ANYTHING to do with Nuclear stuff ( missiles or power ). Oh My God. Please don't tell me any more about that. Even Oracle Corp says don't use our stuff in places where people's lives are directly at stake. (But that's just me.) Lastly, this business about being down for one minute costs us 12 Million dollars is bohunk is most every case. There just isn't the data to support that. Yea, sure, maybe the a site's average intake is 12 Million during a typical one hour outage (that one site out of a million) but how many of those spurned customers come back? Most of them! Me, I can't get my book at Amazon, I just do something else and come back. ditto for my memory upgrade at Micron, or my tech info at Metalink. This lost business argument is weak or NONEXISTENT in EVERY instantiation I have seen of it. Also, a site being down can be anything...network...front line web servers...' back end databasesintermediate LDAP serversand the user ( that's you and I ) have NO WAY OF KNOWING for sure what failed. Ok...Ebay went down, repeatedly. They have IIS front end servers (which have not failed) and backend oracle databases on Sun E10K (which did). NASDAQ's reconciliation system just went down a few weeks ago ( Unix ) But that is a case where I have a mix of good press and backend information. As you note, most sites won't fess up. I happen to work for a government client where we have aging Unix database servers of about five or six different flavors ( Siemens, DEC, Sun, Sequent, etc.) that are pushed to their limits, feebly configured, and poorly maintained (due to damagement downtime procedures) but very tightly maintained NT servers (due to my company's downtime procedures ) and know what? My desktop has gone down ONCE in two years. The mail servers for a 1000 user exchange system with 50 Mbytes per user mailboxes has NEVER gone down in two years. The unix boxes have hiccuped on disk...on memory...on oracle bugs. It's just too easy ( and too wrong ) to say NT Sucks or Solaris Rules or somesuch. (Not that you are, butsadly, many do) Bottomline, I agree with you: If Management REALLY wants 24x7, then I just smile, and explain the costs to them. Before you know it, there are scheduled hardware maintenance windows, oracle tuning/patching downtime, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:58 AM To: Mohan; Ross; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Well, I guess so if that was the only occurrence. I'll never know and I doubt that they will fess-up. At any rate, If one wants to use NT or any other OS for that matter in a 24x7 guaranteed manner then one should look into making as much as possible redundant. Back in my Blue Suit days we did a lot of cause and effect analysis, particularly on Nuclear stuff, to insure that if one component failed there was a redundant part to take over the tasks of the failed unit. We also did analysis to determine what the likelihood of the failure was and what the cost/benefit of having the redundant part was. Basically, if you can expect say 1 failure every 8544 hours and it will take less than 1 hour to correct the failure, is it worth the expense to have redundant hardware for that failure? It's one of those things that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. In the case of NT, you'd need a
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
I see you've picked up some buzzwords like PNG, GPS, nanokernel, and no doubt warez where you got caught trading animal ascii porn through your company e-mail by a bored sysadmin who had nothing better to do than to snoop on users. As for the MCSE and CISCO certified part, I cant tell if thats your attempt at sarcasm or pride :) Nice job on using multi-pathing in a completly different context though... glad to know that someone is still thinks themselves 31337. TH4NX, j0n The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Dear Jon, I'll get back to you when my priorities become io throughput, but right now...shaking mouseI am having trouble... banging mouse on desk...getting this darn application... clicking mouse on monitor...to worksheesh! Good thing I am an MCSE and CISCO Certified, too! :-D Right now, though, I have to get back to running my nanokernel SuSE on my IBM Linux WristWatch with realtime extensions to download the Ricochet out-of-band GPS codes to help decode the PNG data in the Secret Slurpee Web Site. Talk about multi-pathing! slapping knee Wh-! I always liked SuSE's little nanokernel! silly giggle Didn't you? Yours in WareZ, Dude, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:14 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some patches before some script kiddies nail my ass :) Are you sure that there arent a few extra digits in that uptime there bud? ;) We could invent more reasonable values that pre-epoch (hell, even pre-digital computer) in the future. Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Here's my Unix box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 32,245 days, 1:01, 14543 users, load average: 120.19, 430.48, 3450.70 Here's my NT box: # uptime 12:09 pm up 1 days, 1:01, 1 users, load
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
It isn't monochrome anymore... Really! :-) http://www.themes.org/php/pic.phtml?src=shots/990462645.jpg -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 6:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Oooh...wow! Quick, maybe we should run out and convince 90% of the business world that their entire infrastructure is a complete and udder pipe dream and that the idea of trying to simplify our lives with the GUI is also just a big fat waste of time. Then everyone can get rid of their computers that have windows and Unix can take over the world. Yeah...archaic coding at a monochrome terminal..jeez the future looks so bright KK :) * * * * * Freedom of Information Act Notice * * * * * The information in this email is subject to the record protection mandated by 5 United States Code 552(b)(4) and relevant judicial opinions. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Sherman, Edward INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT?
lol, thanks for the link ;) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: bowing Thanks for the kudos, Jon. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 5:34 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? I see you've picked up some buzzwords like PNG, GPS, nanokernel, and no doubt warez where you got caught trading animal ascii porn through || Here's some new tricks for you, Master Downloader: http://www.bbspot.com/Features/2001/06/cruise_quiz.php your company e-mail by a bored sysadmin who had nothing better to do than to snoop on users. As for the MCSE and CISCO certified part, I cant tell if thats your attempt at sarcasm or pride :) Nice job on using multi-pathing in a completly different context though... glad to know that someone is still thinks themselves 31337. TH4NX, j0n The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: Dear Jon, I'll get back to you when my priorities become io throughput, but right now...shaking mouseI am having trouble... banging mouse on desk...getting this darn application... clicking mouse on monitor...to worksheesh! Good thing I am an MCSE and CISCO Certified, too! :-D Right now, though, I have to get back to running my nanokernel SuSE on my IBM Linux WristWatch with realtime extensions to download the Ricochet out-of-band GPS codes to help decode the PNG data in the Secret Slurpee Web Site. Talk about multi-pathing! slapping knee Wh-! I always liked SuSE's little nanokernel! silly giggle Didn't you? Yours in WareZ, Dude, etc. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:14 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L No doubt that came from your redhat Linux box cause you wanted to dabble in playing with a real os (and I'm certainly not saying that rh isn't crap), till you found out that it was too hard cause you couldn't use your mouse on a console (ok, gdm, but nm that). Yet you probably tell others that you've used both extensively and find NT to be the better :) Why? cause you got a 2.2 kernel to install on a referb dell box? When you priorities become io throughput, domain utilization, rebuilding your rt scheduler to handle the demand of certain applications, fail-over on 10 million dollar machines, and multipathing to arrays that have more computing power than your whole fleet of NT boxes, instead of getting a smile cause you figured out how to point and click your way to happiness w/ windows Active directory or IIS, then you can mock me :) Thanks, jon The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second- rate technology, led them into it in the first place. -- Douglas Adams If you have trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mohan, Ross wrote: :) You caught me, Jon. Your numeric perspicacity and penetrating, thoughtful analysis of the NT development effort has really got me re-evaluating my operating system worldview. -Original Message- From: Jon Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 3:56 PM To: Mohan, Ross Cc: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: 24 x 7 on NT? why doesnt anyone just compare the platforms that the respective nt/unix versions run on? I dont really care for intel from square one, much less a proprietary bloated, over marketed, under reliable software to run on top of it :) I think it just boils down to... you cant admin a unix system properly if you dont care, and if you care, you dont want to admin NT, so all that NT has behind it is a bunch of non-caring hs dropouts who got their mcse and are working on a cisco certification. Not saying that linux hasnt brought a slew of script kiddies into the unix melting pot... but atleast they atempt to care and are easy to manage time to apply some
