RE: Orawomen (staffing)
The difference between loyalty and competence might come in there... hiring based mostly job interviews and "first impressions" are poor predictors of a proper fit (read: ensuring competency in a position) within organisations. When there is a crisis, what would a competent manager with integrity prefer? Being told he is wrong, that something is not workable, or loyalty to help him build his career? Hmmm -- hard choice there, but probably, a manager who cares about the success of the organisation as a whole, would hire people who are more competent at filling that role than he or she is. When everything is going well, you can have both loyalty and what HR depts often sometimes refer to as "people skills", "a good fit",or "can work in a team environment." If the Peter Principle is true, and there happens to be a crisis... that's another story. The Peter Principle combined with careerism, and people being too busy to focus properly on any one thing can hurt organisations over the long term. People gravitate toward comfort first and foremost. Why hire someone who knows more than you and keeps telling you management is incompetent? Think about it. You will have to work with these new hires on a daily basis, life is hard enough as it is... Problems never happen... In any case hiring people is such a hassle... OK, no more reponses to this thread on this list from me... Regards, Pat. -Original Message-From: Viktor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:04 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Rachel, I agree with you for the most part and I'm sure so will many others.There are manypeople, however,who advocate people skills, personality; attractiveness comes to mind, in the sense of do you like that person, in other words, do you feel positevely when working together. They say that even if a person lacks skills, she can be taught; as long as she is a nice person, they're fine with it. Regards, Viktor Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathI'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs?When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on howattractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can dothe work and I can learn from him or her.It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- "Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored! i! n mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unrece! pt! ive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of "Americans" (by which I mean kids born in the! S! tates) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usual
RE: Orawomen
Title: Message
The
public education is so pathetic... I took the mannual produced by US scientists
I guess commissioned by the Senate
(or
something like that) and used it to teach my daughter to read grade 3 level a 4
years old in 4 months spending only
20
minutes a day with here.. very easy to do. Will the schools use this manual? My
daughter in grade 2 or 3 rated better
than
97% of her peers in the US at that age level. My brother did the same with his
daughter and gave her some computer game to teach reading.. and she is even
better off.. I mentored kids who had trouble in math and physics for 10
years...
and
the same problem every time...smart kids with mental blocksdeveloped by
the school system. I can't talk about it..
its so
pathetic.
Brian
-Original Message-From: Jeremy Pulcifer
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 3:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I
don't like feeding an OT too much, but...
People wonder why I am completely self-taught. I wonder where they were
taught, because the time I spent in primary and secondary school was a
complete and utter waste of time. It wasn't until I took a few classes of
"higher" education at a decent school that it even occured to me that it is
possible to learn something from a lecture or classroom
setting.
Ugh.
Sure glad my daughter's school system seems to be better than average. If I
were forced to live in the school system I grew up in (Britton-Macon,
Michigan), I'd home-school her.
-Original Message-From: Kevin Lange
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:44
AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE:
Orawomen
April, I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the Teaching
System in Texas was a joke. I moved from Missouri to Texas that
year andwent from a math class where we were doing geometry, trig, and
algebra to a math class where they were teaching the Metric System.
This was back in 1975.
-Original
Message-From: April Wells
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:35
PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE:
Orawomen
Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE
the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is
needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an
accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name
is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she was
going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this)
because she went fromgetting an A in math to getting a Bwhen
they started division.The logic in stressing her out like
this? "We have never taken this test before, and we want to maintain
our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't perfect then we aren't
perfect and we will loose our status in the community. She got a
B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas a B... just on a
test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if allthat
mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar reputation of the
school.
Sorry... sore
subject.
LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then C,
A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with
furare dogs!
April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein
-Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January
08, 2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course
it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high
school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine
comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't
necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In our logic
class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by "pundits" in the
media.
But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not
teachable in the public system, seen as irrelevant.
Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me,
rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound,
misperceptions spread...
My 6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's
OK for boys to play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking
of purchasing him one for his birthday, just to see where he will go
with that. My wife hates Barbies with a
RE: Orawomen (staffing)
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Boivin, Patrice J wrote: People gravitate toward comfort first and foremost. Why hire someone who knows more than you and keeps telling you management is incompetent? Think about it. You will have to work with these new hires on a daily basis, life is hard enough as it is... Problems never happen... In any case hiring people is such a hassle... That's right. As hire As, Bs hire Cs. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Alex INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen (staffing)
You all do topgrading, don't you, Alex? April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Boivin, Patrice J wrote: People gravitate toward comfort first and foremost. Why hire someone who knows more than you and keeps telling you management is incompetent? Think about it. You will have to work with these new hires on a daily basis, life is hard enough as it is... Problems never happen... In any case hiring people is such a hassle... That's right. As hire As, Bs hire Cs. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Alex INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: April Wells INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
ROTFL And it keeps getting funnier every time I read it! :D Rich -Original Message- From: Farnsworth, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:15 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Orawomen I prefer it to be Mary showing me her light source ever few femtoseconds. Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Title: Message
"manual"?? Details?
-Original Message-From:
Spears, Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Thursday,
January 09, 2003 9:04 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
The
public education is so pathetic... I took the mannual produced by US
scientists I guess commissioned by the Senate
(or
something like that) and used it to teach my daughter to read grade 3 level a
4 years old in 4 months spending only
20
minutes a day with here.. very easy to do. Will the schools use this manual?
My daughter in grade 2 or 3 rated better
than
97% of her peers in the US at that age level. My brother did the same with his
daughter and gave her some computer game to teach reading.. and she is even
better off.. I mentored kids who had trouble in math and physics for 10
years...
and
the same problem every time...smart kids with mental blocksdeveloped by
the school system. I can't talk about it..
its
so pathetic.
Brian
-Original Message-From: Jeremy Pulcifer
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 3:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I
don't like feeding an OT too much, but...
People wonder why I am completely self-taught. I wonder where they
were taught, because the time I spent in primary and secondary school was a
complete and utter waste of time. It wasn't until I took a few classes of
"higher" education at a decent school that it even occured to me that it is
possible to learn something from a lecture or classroom
setting.
Ugh. Sure glad my daughter's school system seems to be better than
average. If I were forced to live in the school system I grew up in
(Britton-Macon, Michigan), I'd home-school her.
-Original Message-From: Kevin Lange
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003
11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
April, I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the Teaching
System in Texas was a joke. I moved from Missouri to Texas
that year andwent from a math class where we were doing geometry,
trig, and algebra to a math class where they were teaching the Metric
System. This was back in 1975.
-Original
Message-From: April Wells
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003
12:35 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I
DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent
it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get
an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid
name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she
was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this)
because she went fromgetting an A in math to getting a Bwhen
they started division.The logic in stressing her out like
this? "We have never taken this test before, and we want to
maintain our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't perfect then
we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the community.
She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas a B... just
on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if
allthat mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar
reputation of the school.
Sorry... sore
subject.
LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then
C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals
with furare dogs!
April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein
-Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January
08, 2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic
course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun
for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen
magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B
doesn't necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In
our logic class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by
"pundits" in the media.
But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not
teachable in the public system, seen as
irrelevant.
Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seem
Re: Orawomen
Title: Message Keep in mind that our public school education system exists for the purpose of training (with some education) brainless jocks. They are trained to bounce a ball up and down or run around on a field of grass.This exists so that colleges, TV networks, professional sports teams and brainless jocks can make a lot of $$$. Just follow the money - it will usually give the correct answer. My $0.02 worth, Ken Janusz, CPIM - Original Message - From: Spears, Brian To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:04 AM Subject: RE: Orawomen The public education is so pathetic... I took the mannual produced by US scientists I guess commissioned by the Senate (or something like that) and used it to teach my daughter to read grade 3 level a 4 years old in 4 months spending only 20 minutes a day with here.. very easy to do. Will the schools use this manual? My daughter in grade 2 or 3 rated better than 97% of her peers in the US at that age level. My brother did the same with his daughter and gave her some computer game to teach reading.. and she is even better off.. I mentored kids who had trouble in math and physics for 10 years... and the same problem every time...smart kids with mental blocksdeveloped by the school system. I can't talk about it.. its so pathetic. Brian -Original Message-From: Jeremy Pulcifer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 3:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I don't like feeding an OT too much, but... People wonder why I am completely self-taught. I wonder where they were taught, because the time I spent in primary and secondary school was a complete and utter waste of time. It wasn't until I took a few classes of "higher" education at a decent school that it even occured to me that it is possible to learn something from a lecture or classroom setting. Ugh. Sure glad my daughter's school system seems to be better than average. If I were forced to live in the school system I grew up in (Britton-Macon, Michigan), I'd home-school her. -Original Message-From: Kevin Lange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen April, I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the Teaching System in Texas was a joke. I moved from Missouri to Texas that year andwent from a math class where we were doing geometry, trig, and algebra to a math class where they were teaching the Metric System. This was back in 1975. -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:35 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this) because she went fromgetting an A in math to getting a Bwhen they started division.The logic in stressing her out like this? "We have never taken this test before, and we want to maintain our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas a B... just on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if allthat mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar reputation of the school. Sorry... sore subject. LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with furare dogs! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B d
RE: Orawomen (staffing)
I asked nicely once. Please limit this to the OT list. Jared Boivin, Patrice J [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/2003 04:53 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Orawomen (staffing) The difference between loyalty and competence might come in there... hiring based mostly job interviews and first impressions are poor predictors of a proper fit (read: ensuring competency in a position) within organisations. When there is a crisis, what would a competent manager with integrity prefer? Being told he is wrong, that something is not workable, or loyalty to help him build his career? Hmmm -- hard choice there, but probably, a manager who cares about the success of the organisation as a whole, would hire people who are more competent at filling that role than he or she is. When everything is going well, you can have both loyalty and what HR depts often sometimes refer to as people skills, a good fit, or can work in a team environment. If the Peter Principle is true, and there happens to be a crisis... that's another story. The Peter Principle combined with careerism, and people being too busy to focus properly on any one thing can hurt organisations over the long term. People gravitate toward comfort first and foremost. Why hire someone who knows more than you and keeps telling you management is incompetent? Think about it. You will have to work with these new hires on a daily basis, life is hard enough as it is... Problems never happen... In any case hiring people is such a hassle... OK, no more reponses to this thread on this list from me... Regards, Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rachel, I agree with you for the most part and I'm sure so will many others. There are many people, however, who advocate people skills, personality; attractiveness comes to mind, in the sense of do you like that person, in other words, do you feel positevely when working together. They say that even if a person lacks skills, she can be taught; as long as she is a nice person, they're fine with it. Regards, Viktor Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- Smith, Ron L. wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored! i! n mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unrece! pt! ive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the! S! tates) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually
RE: Orawomen
Title: Message
Glad
someone is interested. My sister also did it for her kids with amazing
results..
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0671631985.01.LZZZ.gif
Teach Your Child
to Read in 100 easy lessons.
Book : Teach your child to read in 100 easy
lessons.
If you
train a 4 year old...yes they will get to good readling level quickly but
important thing is not
to
force the child but help them enjoy the love of reading.. if a child reads at a
very high level of comprehension,
the
rest of education is significantly easier to advance.
A 4
year old needs to keep reading a level they enjoy for a couple of years so it
sticks rock solid. The Fun factor
is the
most inportant key here... Learning is best when its fun.
Brian
-Original Message-From: Brian Dunbar
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003
11:39 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject:
RE: Orawomen
"manual"?? Details?
-Original Message-From:
Spears, Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Thursday,
January 09, 2003 9:04 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
The public education is so pathetic... I took the mannual produced by
US scientists I guess commissioned by the Senate
(or something like that) and used it to teach my daughter to read
grade 3 level a 4 years old in 4 months spending only
20
minutes a day with here.. very easy to do. Will the schools use this manual?
My daughter in grade 2 or 3 rated better
than 97% of her peers in the US at that age level. My brother did the
same with his daughter and gave her some computer game to teach reading..
and she is even better off.. I mentored kids who had trouble in math
and physics for 10 years...
and the same problem every time...smart kids with mental
blocksdeveloped by the school system. I can't talk about
it..
its so pathetic.
Brian
-Original Message-From: Jeremy Pulcifer
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 3:49 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I don't like feeding an OT too much, but...
People wonder why I am completely self-taught. I wonder where they
were taught, because the time I spent in primary and secondary school was
a complete and utter waste of time. It wasn't until I took a few classes
of "higher" education at a decent school that it even occured to me that
it is possible to learn something from a lecture or classroom
setting.
Ugh. Sure glad my daughter's school system seems to be better than
average. If I were forced to live in the school system I grew up in
(Britton-Macon, Michigan), I'd home-school her.
-Original Message-From: Kevin
Lange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
April, I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the
Teaching System in Texas was a joke. I moved from Missouri
to Texas that year andwent from a math class where we were doing
geometry, trig, and algebra to a math class where they were teaching the
Metric System. This was back in 1975.
-Original
Message-From: April Wells
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003
12:35 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I
DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great
extent it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3
and get an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever
the stupid name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears
because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER
telling me this) because she went fromgetting an A in math to
getting a Bwhen they started division.The logic in
stressing her out like this? "We have never taken this test
before, and we want to maintain our perfect school rating"... if our
kids aren't perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our
status in the community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on
her report cardas a B... just on a test... she's 8. I
would hate math and school too if allthat mattered to anyone
was"the" test and the stellar reputation of the
school.
Sorry... sore
subject.
LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B
then C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all
animals with furare dogs!
A
Re: Orawomen
Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Orawomen
I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
I like geek girls!! Dave -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Farnsworth, Dave INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing
Re: Orawomen
Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that maybe you just shouldn't study math. However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
RE: Orawomen
I have found that men are fascinated, not intimidated by techie girls. We can offer them fashion advice as well as hardware recommendations. Saira --- Farnsworth, Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like geek girls!! Dave -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Saira Somani INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
So do I.. and married one... she is a Math major (with Masters) and a CS Diploma. :) - Kirti -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I like geek girls!! Dave -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen My youngest is in high school and is the only woman taking mechanic drawing. She is the best in the class. The instructor was berating the boys that a 'girl' was beating them until my daughter told the instructor to keep gender out of it! She also wanted to join the Chess Club but one of the boys (who was the 'best' player) said girls can't play chess. She beat the jerk 2 out of 3 games and stalemated him in the third while others were watching. She chose not to join. Sweet. So some of the old stereotypes are still out there. Where I work the majority of programmers are women and DBA's are even. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- From: Rachel Carmichael [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel
RE: Orawomen
It is the science, not the scientists which attracts people. This year we will begin building a coherent light source which will pulse every few femtoseconds. This is fast enough that we to see chemical reactions taking place; i.e. bonds between molecules forming or breaking. That's pretty cool whether the project is being run by Mary or John. Ian MacGregor -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Orawomen
And the images that they DO show are of single women who's job is their life and they are socked away 16 hours a day with no social life... just what every girl looking to her future wants to think awaits her. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services--
Re: Orawomen
think kind of showing females and males as well practical needs and applications of structured thinking an analysis (even for houskeeping ...sorry) could be better than showing them off (like: ought better do smthng else than calculus). blame the consumer oriented industry and society - analyzing isn't quite consumer friendly. my small change [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/08/03 00:27 AM Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Markus Reger INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen I have encouraged and pushed science on my daughter and son. My daughter started college this year and wants to go into the biological sciences. I periodically have been a guest teacher at our local schools to teach some physics and am amazed at the lack of interest in generalby the females. And knowing many of the families of these girls I would attribute this to the parents. My $.02 Dave -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
cool female scientists: Grace Hopper, Sally Ride, Ellen Ochoa, Margaret Mead, Rachel Carmichael, Marie Curie, Mae Jemison, Maria Mitchell where's that spotlight? ;) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from
RE: Orawomen
I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen Having taught IT classes (and taken some lately) at college level... it amazed me that, in a class of 20 undergrad students, only one was female (that was in a Database class as well as in one on C programming). I noticed that we were definite minority in 94 when I was working for my BS at Pitt... but seeing LESS girls now than there were then really surprised me. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: Orawomen
Brown-nosing a bit eh? Rachel may be a fine DBA, but a scientist, I think not. I also have a problem with social scientists A hard science bias I not only admit, but proclaim. You forgot to mention Heddy Lamar. Few would call her dorky. Her work on frequency-hopping communications is well recognized. Ian MacGregor -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L cool female scientists: Grace Hopper, Sally Ride, Ellen Ochoa, Margaret Mead, Rachel Carmichael, Marie Curie, Mae Jemison, Maria Mitchell where's that spotlight? ;) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
My wife is a teacher... Parents by and large don't care much about their children's education. The public education service is primarily a daycare for working parents. It varies of course, but when there is a snow storm and schools have to close for the day, we don't hear my child will miss out on her classes! we hear what are we supposed to do with the kids, I have to work you know. In many cases children don't really know what they will want to do once adults (which is normal, how could they know ahead of time), so they go with the flow at school. With no active participation of parents in the process, many children drift into situations where they can't earn a decent living for themselves. The best option it seems to me is for kids to try keeping as many options as possible, so that later they don't find themselves painted into a corner. My wife's school ran out of paper again this year, she brought a pack of paper to school with her this morning... she is ready to quit teaching! Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! Oh I pity the poor young girl who makes me her role model. Besides, my co-author, Marlene Theriault has written many more books than I have. SHE can be the role model. :) --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's 8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky logic doesn't always stick. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Farnsworth, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:20 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I have encouraged and pushed science on my daughter and son. My daughter started college this year and wants to go into the biological sciences. I periodically have been a guest teacher at our local schools to teach some physics and am amazed at the lack of interest in generalby the females. And knowing many of the families of these girls I would attribute this to the parents. My $.02 Dave -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus che
RE: Orawomen
I am by no means a scientist. I'd add Marlene Theriault to that list and the women of this list as well --- STEVE OLLIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cool female scientists: Grace Hopper, Sally Ride, Ellen Ochoa, Margaret Mead, Rachel Carmichael, Marie Curie, Mae Jemison, Maria Mitchell where's that spotlight? ;) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the
RE: Orawomen
I prefer it to be Mary showing me her light source ever few femtoseconds. Dave -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L It is the science, not the scientists which attracts people. This year we will begin building a coherent light source which will pulse every few femtoseconds. This is fast enough that we to see chemical reactions taking place; i.e. bonds between molecules forming or breaking. That's pretty cool whether the project is being run by Mary or John. Ian MacGregor -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
RE: Orawomen or Nursing? [OT]
Title: RE: Orawomen Lisa, Nursing is no place for a woman; if you thinkDBA'ing is stressful, you ain't seen nothingyet My wife is an RN and, while it may nobe scientific, I attribute our difficulty in conceiving and miscarriage to job stress working on an understaffed hospital floor. That was 7+ years ago and it has gotten worse with state and federal cutbacks. Currently, at some facilities, an 80% turnover is common. Unless working conditions improve drastically in the next 10 years, we will use all our influence to steer our two daughters away from nursing.And be glad you work where a gross error only results in a mangled database, not human tragedy. FWIW Mike -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Robin, Yes, there is already declining enrollment in Girl Scouts in general and in the older age ranges as the kids get into Middle School or Junior High. The Girl Scouts organization is very sensitive to having activities be driven by what the girls want to do, not just what the leaders think is good for them. If it stops being fun, they stop coming.However, I find it frustrating to have the majority always rule and do occassionally try to sprinkle in something for the minority. Girl Scouts also emphasize that there should be something of interest for everyone, even if you don't always get to do what you want to do. Cherie Robin Ilardi ilardir@mantec To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] h-wva.comcc: Sent by: Subject: RE: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/08/03 08:34 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I
RE: Orawomen
This is all so true... Sounds like my wife must teach at the same school. It is a regular occurrence for me to photocopy lessons at my place of work because all of the copiers at the school are broken or are out ink. One thing that makes me really mad is that the teachers are all restricted to ordering supplies out of a specific education catalog (to stop them from embezzling supplies or money? who knows why.) and the prices seem to all be 2, 3 or perhaps 4 times what you would expect to pay at Office Depot or Staples. I also concur that the average parent does not care much about their children's education. So if you want your child (especially female) to be interested in science or math, you probably want to try not to be an average parent. Ken. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L My wife is a teacher... Parents by and large don't care much about their children's education. The public education service is primarily a daycare for working parents. It varies of course, but when there is a snow storm and schools have to close for the day, we don't hear my child will miss out on her classes! we hear what are we supposed to do with the kids, I have to work you know. In many cases children don't really know what they will want to do once adults (which is normal, how could they know ahead of time), so they go with the flow at school. With no active participation of parents in the process, many children drift into situations where they can't earn a decent living for themselves. The best option it seems to me is for kids to try keeping as many options as possible, so that later they don't find themselves painted into a corner. My wife's school ran out of paper again this year, she brought a pack of paper to school with her this morning... she is ready to quit teaching! Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen Maybe so, Dave, but I have seen physics demonstrations that had entire auditoriums of kids (yes, high school and junior high kids, both girls and boys) in awe. They did the regular holding-the-fire-extinguisher-while-sitting-on-a-skateboard demonstration along with others to get the kids' attention.The audience was applauding. I was also amazed at some of the other demos we saw in class, the equations literally came alive. That's why I thought physics was so cool - if you didn't believe it, then just try it and prove it to yourself. (Same with anatomy). I'm not saying you aren't a good teacher, but there is a serious lack of teachers who care AND can hold an antsy kid's attention. Physics is just one of those topics that can be - well, is - physical. Try demonstrating an integral without an application. BORING. Again just my 2 cents. MM -Original Message-From: Farnsworth, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:20 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I have encouraged and pushed science on my daughter and son. My daughter started college this year and wants to go into the biological sciences. I periodically have been a guest teacher at our local schools to teach some physics and am amazed at the lack of interest in generalby the females. And knowing many of the families of these girls I would attribute this to the parents. My $.02 Dave -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Orawomen
The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In our logic class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by "pundits" in the media. But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not teachable in the public system, seen as irrelevant. Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me, rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound, misperceptions spread... My 6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's OK for boys to play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking of purchasing him one for his birthday, just to see where he will go with that. My wife hates Barbies with a passion. But I think she hates Universal Soldiers more. ; ) Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's 8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky logic doesn't always stick. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Farnsworth, Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:20 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I have encouraged and pushed science on my daughter and son. My daughter started college this year and wants to go into the biological sciences. I periodically have been a guest teacher at our local schools to teach some physics and am amazed at the lack of interest in generalby the females. And knowing many of the families of these girls I would attribute this to the parents. My $.02 Dave -Original Message-From: Koivu, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Well, it's been a while since I was in college (1999) but I always felt singled out in a class. Some teachers, that were as old as the hills, truly felt that women should not be in science and did not hesitate to say so. Other teachers could not keep their eyes off my legs - I had to leave work and go directly to school for years. Never mind complaining, the department didn't care. There was only one woman professor, but she taught advanced AI. I never got to take any of her classes. I never saw a female physics or math professor at the university. I had one (male) algebra teacher tell me that "maybe you just shouldn't study math." However it was a female teacher at a community college that finally got me through 3 quarters calculus. To this day I credit her with making me feel that I was capable of understanding higher math and pushing me and the whole class to do so. I didn't finish my bachelor's, I didn't need to and I didn't need the stress. But I can see how the declining IT market (no 22-year-old CIOs anymore) paired with this kind of treatment in school would push a detail-oriented young woman to study something else. Personally I wish I would have become a nurse. Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. Lisa Koivu Oracle No-degree Administrator Fairfield Resorts, Inc. 5259 Coconut Creek Parkway Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA 33063 -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 6:11 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Orawomen Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.
RE: Orawomen
Ian, The fact that more girls graduate high school than boys and that many women earn degrees does not debunk the girls are not called upon statement. I didn't say that happened in all classes, certainly in the history classes and English classes I took the girls were called on as much if not more than the boys. You'd have to show me stats that show that the girls had higher grades in math and science to prove your point. I don't think it's a conscious action on the part of the teachers, to discourage girls from the sciences. And yes, motivation should and can come from within and from one's parents. But we are all to some extent captive by our culture. And while there will always be kids (boys and girls) who have enough self-esteem and confidence to buck the system and public opinion, far more of them want to conform and fit in. I do think that the culture today, at least in the US, which idolizes women more for how they look than how they think, is a major contributor to girls shying away from the subjects that are considered geeky and uncool. I'm neither pleased nor displeased about the assistant director -- was she the best candidate for the job? Does she do the work in an above average manner? I try really hard NOT to be prejudiced in either direction when hiring. I try NOT to think about affirmative action but instead focus on getting the best candidate for the position. Rachel --- MacGregor, Ian A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rachel, the girls are not called upon nonsense is debunked by the graduation rate of girls vs. boys in high school, and the number of women earning degrees. It is not unusual to have an extroverted lad dominating a class room; however when at the end the female members of the class will on average have better marks and a better understanding of the subject matter than the male members. It is not unusual in math to have the very top performers to be male, but again on average the girls do better than the boys. How should schools encourage girls to consider science or math, doesn't that come from within? Is it the guidance counselors? I dare say they have rained ruin on as many boys as girls. Are the teachers saying to the girls with a keen interest in math, You'd be better off learning to iron clothes than being able to perform LaPlace transforms? I would guess there are numerous outside factors which discourage women. One is indeed that the fields are often male-dominated. Cracking a homogenous group can be very difficult indeed even if that group is not hostile to the infiltration. Another is doing something different than your peers. I expect you'll be pleased to know that one of our assistant directors is a woman. She leads our Research Division. A position which includes the responsibility of deciding what science is performed here. Our computing and networking efforts also fall under her purview. I also see many daughters following in their fathers' footsteps. They are assuming the same positions that their fathers held twenty some years ago. From this group and the other women scientists, will come future directors and future Nobel Laureates. It takes time but the progress is steady. Ian MacGregor -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message
RE: Orawomen
very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- Smith, Ron L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or
RE: Orawomen
I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on what my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things could change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. My undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of computer work experience. And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to pursue a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. It irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of encouragement. Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. Kip |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that |trend? |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living |doing computer stuff. |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an |(former) educator. |~brian |-Original Message- |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins |is decreasing. |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time |helping them understand the subjects. |My opinion only |Rachel |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | consensus was | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | is an | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | IT is | decreasing. | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | Any theories? | | Dennis Williams | DBA, 40%OCP | Lifetouch, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | -- | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Brian Dunbar | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen or Nursing? [OT]
What's amazing to me is that I, with my AD in Data-freaking-Processing, was making more than twice what my lovely wife was with her Masters in Communicative Disorders. Just plain wrong. Another reason why she's chosen not to work in that field anymore. A shame that her talents in the field are not going to help people anymore, but I agree with her decision totally. sigh Now I'm depressed. Let's go back to breaking production DBs Rich Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Lisa, Nursing is no place for a woman; if you think DBA'ing is stressful, you ain't seen nothing yet My wife is an RN and, while it may no be scientific, I attribute our difficulty in conceiving and miscarriage to job stress working on an understaffed hospital floor. That was 7+ years ago and it has gotten worse with state and federal cutbacks. Currently, at some facilities, an 80% turnover is common. Unless working conditions improve drastically in the next 10 years, we will use all our influence to steer our two daughters away from nursing. And be glad you work where a gross error only results in a mangled database, not human tragedy. FWIW Mike -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
I think you would be a perfect role model. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! Oh I pity the poor young girl who makes me her role model. Besides, my co-author, Marlene Theriault has written many more books than I have. SHE can be the role model. :) --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE
RE: Orawomen
I have a B.A. Psych... I agree -- psychology, economics, sociology, these are not sciences! (throw meteorology into the mix, that is more like astrology). Publishing of papers, number-crunching based on correlations and peer reviews do not a science discipline make. : ) Regards, Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Brown-nosing a bit eh? Rachel may be a fine DBA, but a scientist, I think not. I also have a problem with social scientists A hard science bias I not only admit, but proclaim. You forgot to mention Heddy Lamar. Few would call her dorky. Her work on frequency-hopping communications is well recognized. Ian MacGregor -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L cool female scientists: Grace Hopper, Sally Ride, Ellen Ochoa, Margaret Mead, Rachel Carmichael, Marie Curie, Mae Jemison, Maria Mitchell where's that spotlight? ;) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I'd venture a guess that if it were a requirement there would be fewer girl scouts. Girls join girl scouts to have fun, and I think that they would perceive any requirement as an impediment to their fun, especially something dorky. I agree that it is an image thing. We need some cool female scientists in the spotlight, don't we? -Original Message- Carmichael Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] m 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this) because she went fromgetting an A in math to getting a Bwhen they started division.The logic in stressing her out like this? "We have never taken this test before, and we want to maintain our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas a B... just on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if allthat mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar reputation of the school. Sorry... sore subject. LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with furare dogs! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In our logic class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by "pundits" in the media. But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not teachable in the public system, seen as irrelevant. Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me, rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound, misperceptions spread... My 6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's OK for boys to play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking of purchasing him one for his birthday, just to see where he will go with that. My wife hates Barbies with a passion. But I think she hates Universal Soldiers more. ; ) Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's 8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky logic doesn't always stick. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: Orawomen
At firms where intelligence is all that matters you can look like a pig and you'll still be respected. Most people are not that smart and work for companies where you are judged on looks and personality. On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Rachel Carmichael wrote: very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Alex INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Orawomen
I think this should be moved to the OT list. Thanks, Jared Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/08/2003 09:14 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Orawomen The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
YES!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:20 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- Smith, Ron L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: April Wells INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
putting on a flame retardant suit As long as they aint skinny, looks are good :) Obilgatory oracle statement/question: rumor has it by some instructors that RMAN repository is going away and only control file recoveries will be possible, truth or fiction? joe very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- Smith, Ron L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unreceptive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL
Re: Orawomen
I have been resisting responding to this thread for a number of reasons including my experiences may be considered outdated (my kids are through with their degree getting days and mine are even further back) but there are some things that seem to be coming through that have changed my mind. 1. The idea of fun. At one point I was involved in putting on a program of teaching kids math activities so that they could then teach their classmates. The kids enjoyed it but parents felt if they were having fun they couldn't be learning math. As to Girl Scouts, when I commented on some activities that I thought scouts might enjoy and help to interest them in science my sister who has a degree in engineering came back with the idea that scouting was supposed to be fun. 2. Studies. There have been studies showing that girls can do math but at about Junior High they turn off. If my experience is any guide to why that is about when the subtle and sometimes not so subtle things come into play when choices of what courses to take are made. Along the same lines there was a study on the critical filter role of math suggesting that not taking sufficient math closed doors to all but traditionally feminine fields. 3. Who or what is responsible. In reading there is something called the literate environment - kids whose parents enjoy reading and read to them have the easiest time learning to read. I tried to find something like that for math. As part of my studies I tested kids on math and asked their parents some questions. There was a correlation between the kids achievement and the parents enjoyment of math. There were also a few surprises in the parents answers about the need for math and how easy it was preceived to be - easy for girls but they had no need for it. I still don't have a good handle on this but the no need if subtled conveyed can turn girls from math and shut them out of things requiring the math. I saw and still see a lot of teaching for tests which to me is a way to turn kids off. If they really understand the test shouldn't be a problem but if they have to do the same thing over and over until they and all of their classmates are conditioned to respond just as the test maker expected they will get bored and turn off. I could go on but just on more thing to get a little more on topic. In a database class when I said that relational databases made sense to me the responses was you're a mathematician, aren't you? Pat -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Pat Hildebrand INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
I'm curious. Does everyone here think the IT profession is hard? Does everyone think that being a DBA is harder than say, a teacher, or a sales clerk, or something else? I don't understand the attitude. Or maybe I'm just lucky. The IT field is wide-open for everyobe to find a niche where they are comfortable. And it is certainly a better field than nursing (hours, pay and exposure to multyitude of diseases suck!), teaching (while working with most kids would be fun, the pay is tough and the hard-luck kids are tougher), retail (wanna work in Home-Depot?). While some damagement is tough to work with, I think the field is interested, challenging and always interesting. And the pay is better than most. Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on what my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things could change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. My undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of computer work experience. And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to pursue a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. It irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of encouragement. Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. Kip |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that |trend? |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living |doing computer stuff. |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an |(former) educator. |~brian |-Original Message- |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins |is decreasing. |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time |helping them understand the subjects. |My opinion only |Rachel |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | consensus was | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | is an | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | IT is | decreasing. | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | Any theories? | | Dennis Williams | DBA, 40%OCP | Lifetouch, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | -- | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Brian Dunbar | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the
RE: Orawomen
Oh it has, and has evolved into a more spicey version. -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think this should be moved to the OT list. Thanks, Jared Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/08/2003 09:14 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Orawomen The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Farnsworth, Dave INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Orawomen
DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Could it just be that women are smarter ? -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
I am waiting for the day when I have the time, energy and money to go back to school just because. I did well on those stanardized tests because I have a pretty logical brain and a really good short term memory (it's how I managed to get my OCP without ever seeing an 8i db or cracking the manuals) My parents, as seniors, get to go to the city university for $75 a semester and take any class or classes they want. No tests, no papers, just learn. I'm so jealous. School systems have too many kids in each class and the teachers can't really teach or give attention either to the ones who need help or the ones who are way ahead of the class. --- April Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this) because she went from getting an A in math to getting a B when they started division. The logic in stressing her out like this? We have never taken this test before, and we want to maintain our perfect school rating... if our kids aren't perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report card as a B... just on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if all that mattered to anyone was the test and the stellar reputation of the school. Sorry... sore subject. LOVED logic! If A then B, If B then C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with fur are dogs! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In our logic class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by pundits in the media. But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not teachable in the public system, seen as irrelevant. Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me, rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound, misperceptions spread... My 6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's OK for boys to play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking of purchasing him one for his birthday, just to see where he will go with that. My wife hates Barbies with a passion. But I think she hates Universal Soldiers more. ; ) Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:39 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's 8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky logic doesn't always stick. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat
Re: Orawomen
Same from me...I just get so tired of explaining that subtle discrimination is just as bad, if not worse than overt discrimination. If people put the same importance on the looks of men I wonder if Steven Hawkins would be taken seriously, or Einstein (a bad hair life). How many references did we have to listen to about Madelain Albrights looks, or Janet Reno's. Do we hear about Ashcroft's looks, or butt, or whatever? Or Koko's? Or Cheney's? We hear about their opinions, ideas, policies...but not their looks. Ruth - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:40 PM YES!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:20 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in math I'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs? When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on how attractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can do the work and I can learn from him or her. It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- Smith, Ron L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: April Wells INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ruth Gramolini INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen
April,
I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the Teaching System in Texas was
a joke. I moved from Missouri to Texas that year andwent from
a math class where we were doing geometry, trig, and algebra to a math class
where they were teaching the Metric System. This was back in
1975.
-Original Message-From:
April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 12:35 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE the
testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is needed
(there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an accurate answer)
but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name is this year).
My 8 year old came home in tears because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she
came home in OCTOBER telling me this) because she went fromgetting an A
in math to getting a Bwhen they started division.The logic
in stressing her out like this? "We have never taken this test before,
and we want to maintain our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't
perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the
community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas
a B... just on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if
allthat mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar
reputation of the school.
Sorry... sore
subject.
LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then C, A
therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with
furare dogs!
April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein
-Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08,
2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I
don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in
university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students
to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and
pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't necessarily follow from the
previous paragraph, etc. In our logic class we had a lot of fun
examining statements made by "pundits" in the media.
But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not teachable
in the public system, seen as irrelevant.
Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me,
rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound,
misperceptions spread...
My
6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's OK for boys to
play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking of purchasing him
one for his birthday, just to see where he will go with that. My wife
hates Barbies with a passion. But I think she hates Universal Soldiers
more.
;
)
Regards,
Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
-Original Message-From: April Wells
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003
12:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list
ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen
I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED
to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in
anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's
8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision
jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky
logic doesn't always stick.
April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent
opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein
The information contained in this communication,
including attachments, is strictly confidential
and for the intended use of the addressee only;
it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive,
or legally privileged information. Notice is
hereby given that any disclosure, distribution,
dissemination, use, or copying of the information
by anyone other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you
have received this communication in error, please
notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete
this communication, and destroy all copies.
Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions
to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been
swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability
and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained
as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out
your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
Was - RE: Orawomen - Steven Hawking
Title: Was - RE: Orawomen - Steven Hawking Talking about Steven Hawking ... Happy 61st Birthday to Steven !! How do I know? Long Live NPR !! Raj __ Rajendra Jamadagni MIS, ESPN Inc. Rajendra dot Jamadagni at ESPN dot com Any opinion expressed here is personal and doesn't reflect that of ESPN Inc. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, but having an opinion is an art! -Original Message- From: Ruth Gramolini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Orawomen Same from me...I just get so tired of explaining that subtle discrimination is just as bad, if not worse than overt discrimination. If people put the same importance on the looks of men I wonder if Steven Hawkins would be taken seriously, or Einstein (a bad hair life). --- Ruth *This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*1
Re: Orawomen
Agreed. Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:08 PM I'm curious. Does everyone here think the IT profession is hard? Does everyone think that being a DBA is harder than say, a teacher, or a sales clerk, or something else? I don't understand the attitude. Or maybe I'm just lucky. The IT field is wide-open for everyobe to find a niche where they are comfortable. And it is certainly a better field than nursing (hours, pay and exposure to multyitude of diseases suck!), teaching (while working with most kids would be fun, the pay is tough and the hard-luck kids are tougher), retail (wanna work in Home-Depot?). While some damagement is tough to work with, I think the field is interested, challenging and always interesting. And the pay is better than most. Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on what my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things could change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. My undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of computer work experience. And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to pursue a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. It irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of encouragement. Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. Kip |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that |trend? |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living |doing computer stuff. |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an |(former) educator. |~brian |-Original Message- |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins |is decreasing. |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time |helping them understand the subjects. |My opinion only |Rachel |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | consensus was | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | is an | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | IT is | decreasing. | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | Any theories? | | Dennis Williams | DBA, 40%OCP | Lifetouch, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | -- | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Brian Dunbar | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: Orawomen
I personally love being a DBA. I have found my niche. Ruth - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:08 PM I'm curious. Does everyone here think the IT profession is hard? Does everyone think that being a DBA is harder than say, a teacher, or a sales clerk, or something else? I don't understand the attitude. Or maybe I'm just lucky. The IT field is wide-open for everyobe to find a niche where they are comfortable. And it is certainly a better field than nursing (hours, pay and exposure to multyitude of diseases suck!), teaching (while working with most kids would be fun, the pay is tough and the hard-luck kids are tougher), retail (wanna work in Home-Depot?). While some damagement is tough to work with, I think the field is interested, challenging and always interesting. And the pay is better than most. Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on what my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things could change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. My undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of computer work experience. And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to pursue a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. It irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of encouragement. Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. Kip |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that |trend? |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living |doing computer stuff. |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an |(former) educator. |~brian |-Original Message- |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins |is decreasing. |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time |helping them understand the subjects. |My opinion only |Rachel |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | consensus was | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | is an | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | IT is | decreasing. | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | Any theories? | | Dennis Williams | DBA, 40%OCP | Lifetouch, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | -- | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Brian Dunbar | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: Orawomen
Don't get me wrong. I never said anything about it being harder than any other way of making a living. They, being kids, just see the early AM calls or calls on holidays and so on and say no way. My own father-in-law who worked for IBM for 25+ years couldn't understand why I would get a call on a Sunday when having dinner at his house (Can't it wait until Monday??). Kip |Agreed. |Igor Neyman, OCP DBA |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Original Message - |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:08 PM | I'm curious. Does everyone here think the IT profession is hard? Does | everyone think that being a DBA is harder than say, a teacher, or a sales | clerk, or something else? | | I don't understand the attitude. Or maybe I'm just lucky. The IT field |is | wide-open for everyobe to find a niche where they are comfortable. | | And it is certainly a better field than nursing (hours, pay and exposure |to | multyitude of diseases suck!), teaching (while working with most kids |would | be fun, the pay is tough and the hard-luck kids are tougher), retail |(wanna | work in Home-Depot?). | | While some damagement is tough to work with, I think the field is | interested, challenging and always interesting. And the pay is better |than | most. | | Tom Mercadante | Oracle Certified Professional | | | -Original Message- | Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:27 PM | To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | | I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on | what | my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things |could | change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. |My | undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with | computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of | computer work experience. | | And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to | pursue | a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. | It | irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she | does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of | encouragement. | Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. | | Kip | | |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean | kids | |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. | |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of | that | |trend? | | |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for |it, | |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that |I | |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living | |doing computer stuff. | | |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, | |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid | |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an | |(former) educator. | | |~brian | | | |-Original Message- | |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM | |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L | | | |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female | |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women | |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are | |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins | |is decreasing. | | |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old | |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science | |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those | |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time | |helping them understand the subjects. | | |My opinion only | | |Rachel | | |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | | consensus was | | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | | is an | | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | | IT is | | decreasing. | | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | | Any theories? | | | | Dennis Williams | | DBA, 40%OCP | | Lifetouch, Inc. | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | -- | | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | | -- | | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |-- | |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | |-- | |Author: Brian Dunbar | | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com | |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services | |- | |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message | |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |
RE: Orawomen
Pleeese let's not bring up either Janet Reno's or John Ashcroft's posterior. The mental image is way too disturbing. Jim -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Same from me...I just get so tired of explaining that subtle discrimination is just as bad, if not worse than overt discrimination. If people put the same importance on the looks of men I wonder if Steven Hawkins would be taken seriously, or Einstein (a bad hair life). How many references did we have to listen to about Madelain Albrights looks, or Janet Reno's. Do we hear about Ashcroft's looks, or butt, or whatever? Or Koko's? Or Cheney's? We hear about their opinions, ideas, policies...but not their looks. Ruth -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Well, I worked in other places where I did 5 times the amount of work I do now. It can be brutal in different places depending on the boss. To me its now just like playing.. hard part is getting all the right people to agree. Brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 3:07 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I personally love being a DBA. I have found my niche. Ruth - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:08 PM I'm curious. Does everyone here think the IT profession is hard? Does everyone think that being a DBA is harder than say, a teacher, or a sales clerk, or something else? I don't understand the attitude. Or maybe I'm just lucky. The IT field is wide-open for everyobe to find a niche where they are comfortable. And it is certainly a better field than nursing (hours, pay and exposure to multyitude of diseases suck!), teaching (while working with most kids would be fun, the pay is tough and the hard-luck kids are tougher), retail (wanna work in Home-Depot?). While some damagement is tough to work with, I think the field is interested, challenging and always interesting. And the pay is better than most. Tom Mercadante Oracle Certified Professional -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I can relate to this. I have two sons and both have told me that based on what my work life seems like they would never pursue an IT career. Things could change over time, of course, as the reality of making a living sets in. My undergraduate and graduate degrees have absolutely nothing to do with computers or anything remotely technical and yet here I am with decades of computer work experience. And, by the way, even as a male I was never encouraged in High School to pursue a profession. So far as I can tell they didn't see much potential in me. It irks my English teacher wife no end that I earn almost twice what she does...and she was the one with exceptional grades and lots of encouragement. Not bragging. I think she's worth a lot more than what she's paid. Kip |Just asking .. I'm told that the number of Americans (by which I mean kids |born in the States) entering technical fields of all types is declining. |Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that |trend? |For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, |I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I |can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living |doing computer stuff. |If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, |perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid |teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an |(former) educator. |~brian |-Original Message- |Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L |I think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female |Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women |entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are |encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins |is decreasing. |I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old |daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science |or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those |fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time |helping them understand the subjects. |My opinion only |Rachel |--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The | consensus was | that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here | is an | article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in | IT is | decreasing. | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 | Any theories? | | Dennis Williams | DBA, 40%OCP | Lifetouch, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- | Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net | -- | Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-- |Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net |-- |Author: Brian Dunbar | INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com |San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services |- |To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message |to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in |the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L |(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may |also send the HELP command
RE: Orawomen
Title: Message I don't like feeding an OT too much, but... People wonder why I am completely self-taught. I wonder where they were taught, because the time I spent in primary and secondary school was a complete and utter waste of time. It wasn't until I took a few classes of "higher" education at a decent school that it even occured to me that it is possible to learn something from a lecture or classroom setting. Ugh. Sure glad my daughter's school system seems to be better than average. If I were forced to live in the school system I grew up in (Britton-Macon, Michigan), I'd home-school her. -Original Message-From: Kevin Lange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen April, I could tell back when I was in 8th grade that the Teaching System in Texas was a joke. I moved from Missouri to Texas that year andwent from a math class where we were doing geometry, trig, and algebra to a math class where they were teaching the Metric System. This was back in 1975. -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:35 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen Be glad that you aren't in Texas. I DESPISE the testing system here. I realize that to a great extent it is needed (there are high school JRs who can't divide 6 by 3 and get an accurate answer) but they TEACH to the TEKS (or whatever the stupid name is this year). My 8 year old came home in tears because she was going to flunk 3rd grade (she came home in OCTOBER telling me this) because she went fromgetting an A in math to getting a Bwhen they started division.The logic in stressing her out like this? "We have never taken this test before, and we want to maintain our perfect school rating"... if our kids aren't perfect then we aren't perfect and we will loose our status in the community. She got a B... and it wasn't even on her report cardas a B... just on a test... she's 8. I would hate math and school too if allthat mattered to anyone was"the" test and the stellar reputation of the school. Sorry... sore subject. LOVED logic! IfA then B, If B then C, A therefore C... all dogs are animals with fur, but not all animals with furare dogs! April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein -Original Message-From: Boivin, Patrice J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:55 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I don't know about you, but the first time I took a logic course it was in university... It seems to me it would be fun for high school students to take newspaper or magazine articles (Teen magazine comes to mind) and pull them apart to show that statement B doesn't necessarily follow from the previous paragraph, etc. In our logic class we had a lot of fun examining statements made by "pundits" in the media. But ooops! Logic falls under philosophy, that's not teachable in the public system, seen as irrelevant. Logic is done by unconscious habit by most people it seems to me, rarely consciously applied. So generalized statements abound, misperceptions spread... My 6 year old son has asked me at least three times now if it's OK for boys to play with Barbies... he doesn't have one but am thinking of purchasing him one for his birthday, just to see where he will go with that. My wife hates Barbies with a passion. But I think she hates Universal Soldiers more. ; ) Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:39 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Orawomen I will agree to some extent. But I have TRIED to get my daughter on the computers, into math and science, interested in anything technology... she tells me that Computers are geeky (she's 8). She is my militant little feminist and into sports and precision jump rope... I try to explain that I work with computers. The geeky logic doesn't always stick. April Wells Oracle DBA Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds -- Albert Einstein The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the in
RE: Orawomen
I believe its hard to stop a snowball once its rolling downhill Jared -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think this should be moved to the OT list. Thanks, Jared Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/08/2003 09:14 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Orawomen The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COMcc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Kevin Lange INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Orawomen
I think Rodd made a very valid statement... Whilst I think it is good to promote science and other dorky things to girls and the end of the day we have to let them do something they enjoy. There's a lot of years of evolution that make us the way we are. I'm a boy and I really enjoy technical stuff. I spent my childhood messing around in the garage playing with radio controlled cars, building lego and playing on a computer. If someone had tried to force me into a female dominated world I would have been pretty upset. Sure, they can open my eyes to the concept but if I decide I don't like it them I'll never enjoy it. Some guys want to be an actor or a nurse or whatever, and that's fine, but I didn't. I can only imagine it's the same for girls. Most of the girls I meet in IT played with lego as a child and loved it - perhaps we are (at least partly) destined for a type of career before we even realise it? Like I said - I'm all for equality in the workplace. But at the end of the day there are some jobs that more men enjoy than women and vice versa - I don't think this is a problem that requires fixing though. Thankfully IT here in Australia has a decent gender balance (perhaps not quite 50/50) but still a damm lot better than many other careers. Cheers, Mark. PS: If anyone would like to help the gender balance and offer my (computer science graduate) girlfriend a job let me know. Rodd Holman roddholman@ho To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] tpop.comcc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] om 09/01/2003 04:14 Please respond to ORACLE-L The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor.Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen I have worked in IT in private industry and government for the past 15 years. Unfortunately, I have encountered a lot (not all) of men who have great difficulty accepting women in IT. Its hard at times especially when a woman says something and it is denounced or ignored then a man says the exact same thing and its the greatest idea ever. (this response is from other men in IT) I think a lot of women in IT are just getting fed up with it and finding something else. Do men feel threatened my women who are smart and know something they don't know? I don't feel that way about men who are smarter than I am. I just try to learn from them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 3:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Orawomen Pleeese let's not bring up either Janet Reno's or John Ashcroft's posterior. The mental image is way too disturbing. Jim -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Same from me...I just get so tired of explaining that subtle discrimination is just as bad, if not worse than overt discrimination. If people put the same importance on the looks of men I wonder if Steven Hawkins would be taken seriously, or Einstein (a bad hair life). How many references did we have to listen to about Madelain Albrights looks, or Janet Reno's. Do we hear about Ashcroft's looks, or butt, or whatever? Or Koko's? Or Cheney's? We hear about their opinions, ideas, policies...but not their looks. Ruth -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Orawomen
Title: RE: Orawomen Guess I am lucky I have two boys. I have only embraced the dork thing all my life - always studying, at the library - ya know. However, we all have a wild side. Anyway, I want my kids to just be themselves and learn sooner then me to throw off the yoke of what society/someone else... thinks of you. In the long-run you end up much happier. Youth is wasted on the wrong people. -Original Message- From: Kevin Lange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Orawomen I believe its hard to stop a snowball once its rolling downhill Jared -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I think this should be moved to the OT list. Thanks, Jared Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/08/2003 09:14 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Orawomen The real key to this issue is not making it a GS requirement, but in getting parents off their butts and being parents. I continually work with my kids, especially my daughters (ages 17,16,12) to be individuals and go for what they like and find interesting. Forget the pop culture and fashion junk you see in the mags and on the tube! I encourage them to be themselves and find contentment in that. This whole Dork Factor thing is out of control with the 10-19 age group, especially among girls. Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Romans 1:16-17 On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 07:54, Rachel Carmichael wrote: Dorky rules :) It's sad that there isn't a requirement for the science/math activities in the Girl Scouts. The problem is that society in general doesn't show images of science as being cool and definitely doesn't show images of women as scientists. Or at least, not enough images. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, I think that the article is correct that girls and teens are sensitive to the geek stigma factor. Even in our 10-year-old Girl Scout troop, the girls are already concerned about their images and not being too dorky. We have many more girls vote for activities involving animals and crafts than activities centered on math and science. The votes are usually about 8 to 1 with only one or two girls voting to do the math or science activities. Pretty sad, especially considering that the Girl Scouts organization tries really hard to push those technical and math/science programs and make them interesting and fun. The 25% number cited in the article for women in the IT sector seems pretty close to the number that we have show up at our local Oracle User's Group meeting. I think that the participation by women in our user's group has increased steadily in the last 10 years. Perhaps more women are drawn to database work than IT in general as it tends to be more administrative than say, programming. I'd also have to say that in many cases, being an Oracle DBA can be pretty grueling for those with families and for women with families in particular. Cherie Machler Oracle DBA Gelco Information Network DENNIS WILLIAMS DWILLIAMS@LIFE To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOUCH.COM cc: Sent by: Subject: Orawomen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/07/03 05:11 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers were increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Kevin Lange INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name
RE: Orawomen
Rachel, I agree with you for the most part and I'm sure so will many others.There are manypeople, however,who advocate people skills, personality; attractiveness comes to mind, in the sense of do you like that person, in other words, do you feel positevely when working together. They say that even if a person lacks skills, she can be taught; as long as she is a nice person, they're fine with it. Regards, Viktor Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored in mathI'm about to start a flame war here, I just know it. WHY does it matter to mention the attractiveness of the female DBAs?When I talk about someone I work with, I don't comment on howattractive he or she is. I talk about whether or not the person can dothe work and I can learn from him or her.It's the subtle things that promote the attitude. --- "Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I have had the pleasure of working with 2 female DBA's at my company. I have to say they were both the best DBA's the company has had. Both were very technical, very detailed, and very dedicated. The fact that they were both attractive didn't hurt either. One majored i! n mathamatics and had a 4 point average. But I would not concider her a geek at all. They are both always willing to go the extra mile when needed and work what ever hours are required. I probebly wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. It would be too boring. R. Smith -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:25 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Cherie, Rachel - Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Brian - I think you are correct that kids today get very little encouragement to study hard subjects like sciences. I find this ironic given the fact that we have an incredibly technological society. I think this is a cumulative product of our society. Parents don't always encourage their children, teachers feel they are talking to an unrecept! ive audience (and usually don't have much exposure to technical careers themselves), and our popular culture ridicules the idea of maturity in general. But this is more of a concern for girls as they are making decisions about their future. The reason is role models. Often just one prominent member of a profession will encourage many young people to consider that field. Now when a young woman in the computer field is considering becoming an Oracle DBA, a quick scan of the bookshelves turns up Rachel's name. So hear that Rachel -- you're a role model, so you must write more books! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Just asking .. I'm told that the number of "Americans" (by which I mean kids born in the S! tates) entering technical fields of all types is declining. Could the decline of the number of women in IT entering IT be a part of that trend? For that matter, I wasn't really called on much in school (and glad for it, I wasn't usually paying attention), nor did my teachers encourage me that I can recall for anything in particular. Yet, here I am, earning a living doing computer stuff. If 'girls' (or boys, see para 1) aren't encouraged in technical matters, perhaps it's a problem beyond the scope of an overworked and underpaid teachers? Please note, I speak as a father of six and the husband of an (former) educator. ~brian -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:39 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I ! think that within the population of women in IT, the number of female Oracle DBAs is increasing. However, in general, the number of women entering IT is decreasing. That is, the number of women who are encouraged to become DBAs or developers or network admins or sys admins is decreasing. I've noticed (I have a friend with a 13 year old son and a 16 year old daughter) that the schools are not encouraging girls to go into science or math. There have been studies done that show that teachers in those fields tend to call on the girls in the class less and spend less time helping them understand the subjects. My opinion only Rachel --- DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Recently this list had a discussion of female Oracle DBAs. The consensus was that the numbers wer! e increasing, which I view as a good thing. Here is an article with industry statistics saying that the number of women in IT is decreasing. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/1564501 Any theories?Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list
