Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi JS. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote: The fact is that right now, there's one person with commit access. Errr no. This is not fact. There are several developers with commit access to svn/trunk and svn/branches. In the case of svn/trunk those with commit access are for specific portions that they are the lead author to. I will state again. svn access does not scale like testing and debugging does. You can't scale up commit access and retain quality, consistency and productivity. Might I suggest reading a text like the Mythical Man Month will give you a few pointers about the delicate balance of development scaling. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hello Robert, On Feb 22, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Robert Osfield wrote: Hi JS. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote: The fact is that right now, there's one person with commit access. Errr no. This is not fact. There are several developers with commit access to svn/trunk and svn/branches. In the case of svn/trunk those with commit access are for specific portions that they are the lead author to. Is this document somewhere where the community can see who has what permissions where on the svn repository? Thanks. Doug ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi, Robert Osfield wrote: I will state again. svn access does not scale like testing and debugging does. You can't scale up commit access and retain quality, consistency and productivity. Might I suggest reading a text like the Mythical Man Month will give you a few pointers about the delicate balance of development scaling. how about having some tree of patch flow like e.g. linux kernel? Robert at the top - some people with experience on some subsystems/build configs - users/other devs. People on the second level are targets for some user bug reports. They bash patches into what they believe are good condition and send up to Robert. Robert can still review, but will hopefully not have to fix trivial things (e.g. style/build problems). Second level can have some Signed off by: attached to patches sent up to hopefully inspire some level of confidence/quality higher up. Comments? PS. I've come across this great lecture series (with videos) from Andrew Tridgell (of Samba fame). Lecture 7: FOSS Governance might be of interest (in the sense of being informative, not prescriptive). http://cs.anu.edu.au/students/comp8440/lectures.php regards jp Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Robert, The fact is that right now, there's one person with commit access. Errr no. This is not fact. There are several developers with commit access to svn/trunk and svn/branches. In the case of svn/trunk those with commit access are for specific portions that they are the lead author to. You know full well I meant commit access to the core on svn trunk. That's the main point right now. I will state again. svn access does not scale like testing and debugging does. You can't scale up commit access and retain quality, consistency and productivity. Might I suggest reading a text like the Mythical Man Month will give you a few pointers about the delicate balance of development scaling. Believe it or not, I have read that and I agree with most of its points. BUT I didn't suggest scaling up to thousands of people. I suggested two or three more. And taking any point written in a book as an absolute is risky. You conveniently ignore my point about other open source projects. What did you understand that they all ignored? I guess I should just expect Boost, Blender, all those successful projects that have multiple people committing to their central svn to fail tomorrow, they can't possibly prosper a day more... (please take that as what it is, it's sarcasm designed to make you think about what other projects do, nothing more) One of the pioneering open source projects is Mozilla (once Netscape, then Mozilla, then Firefox and Thunderbird and others). I've had the chance to submit a few fixes to that project and see how they handled them. They have a group of reviewers, one of which gets assigned to your patch / bug report, depending on their area of expertise and the part of the code your patch touches. If the patch touches multiple areas, multiple reviewers get assigned. The reviewer(s) approve the patch (or it goes through a few iterations with the submitter before being approved), and then a second reviewer who doesn't know about the problem has to check it and approve it too, and finally the first reviewer can commit it. If a patch gets committed without this two-level review, then it gets backed out because it hasn't been approved correctly. I'm not suggesting we go to that level of organized process, I'm just saying that if that process has worked for them, then taking bits of it and adapting them could work for us. And saying that scaling up svn (revision control - they used CVS at the time) access doesn't work is just false. I have trouble believing you want to keep all that pressure on your shoulders. Believe it or not even you have broken the build and introduced bugs too. There must be one or two other people in whom you have some confidence, and that you could include and give some submissions to review... J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi JS, On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote: You know full well I meant commit access to the core on svn trunk. That's the main point right now. No I didn't know you meant something other than what you said. You said something that wasn't true so I corrected it. Don't forgot that you're not the only one reading this thread. As for the rest. As I said this isn't the thread to host such as discussion. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:56 PM, J.P. Delport jpdelp...@csir.co.za wrote: Hi, how about having some tree of patch flow like e.g. linux kernel? Robert at the top - some people with experience on some subsystems/build configs - users/other devs. Ahfhfhghghg this is not the thread to discuss this. Please wait. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Doug McCorkle mc...@iastate.edu wrote: Is this document somewhere where the community can see who has what permissions where on the svn repository? I thought there was one of what was loosely termed osg-crew from a few years back, but I can't find any details on the present wiki so I've put up page from what I can remember from the top of my head, I know the list isn't complete, Jose Luis will have to added in the blanks. http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Community/Maintainers ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Robert, Just a small typo correction for the last link in http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Community/Maintainers, I think you meant http://c*d*ash.openscenegraph.orghttp://cash.openscenegraph.org/ and not http://cash.openscenegraph.org :) Mourad On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Robert Osfield robert.osfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Doug McCorkle mc...@iastate.edu wrote: Is this document somewhere where the community can see who has what permissions where on the svn repository? I thought there was one of what was loosely termed osg-crew from a few years back, but I can't find any details on the present wiki so I've put up page from what I can remember from the top of my head, I know the list isn't complete, Jose Luis will have to added in the blanks. http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Community/Maintainers ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Robert, You know full well I meant commit access to the core on svn trunk. That's the main point right now. No I didn't know you meant something other than what you said. You said something that wasn't true so I corrected it. Don't forgot that you're not the only one reading this thread. Geez, we're not brainless machines, we can reason from context can't we? If I have to re-state the whole context each time I say something we'll have many pages of text instead of a few paragraphs in each e-mail message. And I would be insulting your intelligence. As for the rest. As I said this isn't the thread to host such as discussion. You're the boss, boss. ;-) J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Mourad Boufarguine wrote on 2010-02-22: Just a small typo correction for the last link in http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Community/Maintainers, I think you meant http://cdash.openscenegraph.org http://cash.openscenegraph.org/ and not http://cash.openscenegraph.org http://cash.openscenegraph.org/ :) Fixed! -- Bryan Thrall FlightSafety International bryan.thr...@flightsafety.com ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi J.P., PS. I've come across this great lecture series (with videos) from Andrew Tridgell (of Samba fame). Lecture 7: FOSS Governance might be of interest (in the sense of being informative, not prescriptive). http://cs.anu.edu.au/students/comp8440/lectures.php Thanks for sharing this! I've just watched lecture 7 as you suggested and it is indeed good. I'll be watching the other ones, I'm sure the whole series is just as interesting! Thanks again, J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi JS, On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Jean-Sébastien Guay jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote: Hi Robert, I am angry because of your attitude towards me, accusations of un-professionalism - something based on my inability to live up to your expectations on just how much work I can personally take on. These expectations *are* unreasonable, so I will never be able to live up to your expectations and I will always disappoint. I think this really underscores the submissions bottleneck for core OSG. I think if you had let someone (or a group of people) take on the less critical submissions, and had been able to totally devote yourself to the harder ones, you would be less exerted and this discussion might not have escalated to the point that it has. Yes there is has been a bottleneck with submissions, and we've made some steps towards - we now have more contributors with write permission. However, this is really at the issue w.r.t this particular thread. It's the fact that I can't do testing on as widespread a platforms as Paul expects. The more work I have to do on keeping tabs of all the platform combinations personally the less time I have for submissions and other work. Testing on platform combinations is something that should scale well with the community, and normally it does. The difficultly lies in the niche platforms - such as GL3 and GLES as there right now few users testing as it's really early in their existance. Expecting me to take up this slack just isn't on - I can't balance the books of keeping up with submissions and the extra platform combinations. The community has to help and it's something that can easily scale - it just needs a few more developers to test out these combination and provide reports of failures and ideally fixes for them. The fixes for them is very useful for me as it avoids the need for an iterative cycle of me having to guess what might be amiss, the end user testing it and then reporting success/failure and if failure back round for another loop. These loops can take hours or even days per iteration. Reports of failures and providing fixes saves a lot of time for all those involved. Scaling up developers with write access to svn is much harder to do. Review of submissions is critically important from many different levels, even what can seem to be trivial fix may actually have lots of knock on effects, both good and bad for cross platform build and execution. This is huge topic to get in to, and this certainly isn't the thread to do it. As I said above, the thread is about how/how not to scale up testing of all the different build combinations. Paul expects me to take on more, enough to even to try to paint me as unprofessional in not taking GL3 as well, while I'm raising a red flag and saying no, this is neither reasonable nor productive, the community has to be engaged productively to help us scale in platforms. The community includes Paul, but it's up to him how much he feels he can engage on supporting different platforms. After 2.9.7 is out my plan is strike up a thread on the topic of distributing work effort better amongst the community, it was my intention to do this even before this thread went out of control - as it been pretty clear this month that there is just too much work for me and the various things such as website/cdash/wiki that we need to improve upon. We've had this type of thread many times, some things have improved, but there are parts of overall project that I've tried to shift over responsibility for but still somehow when things go amiss I'm back having to coordinate things or step in. Right now though, getting 2.9.7 the door is my focus. So testing, testing, testing. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Robert Osfield wrote: Yes there is has been a bottleneck with submissions, and we've made some steps towards - we now have more contributors with write permission. However, this is really at the issue w.r.t this particular thread. It's the fact that I can't do testing on as widespread a platforms as Paul expects. The more work I have to do on keeping tabs of all the platform combinations personally the less time I have for submissions and other work. Testing on platform combinations is something that should scale well with the community, and normally it does. The difficultly lies in the niche platforms - such as GL3 and GLES as there right now few users testing as it's really early in their existance. Expecting me to take up this slack just isn't on - I can't balance the books of keeping up with submissions and the extra platform combinations. The community has to help and it's something that can easily scale - it just needs a few more developers to test out these combination and provide reports of failures and ideally fixes for them. The fixes for them is very useful for me as it avoids the need for an iterative cycle of me having to guess what might be amiss, the end user testing it and then reporting success/failure and if failure back round for another loop. These loops can take hours or even days per iteration. Reports of failures and providing fixes saves a lot of time for all those involved. I'd like to smooth out this whole misunderstanding, and possibly address some of the issues you've identified above. I'll maintain the GL3 build and never again suggest that you should maintain or test it, if you grant me write permission to trunk so that I can fix GL3 build breaks by directly committing the fixes. I know you state (in text removed for brevity) that this thread isn't the right place to discuss opening up trunk, so if that's the case, then we could discuss this on a separate thread. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Paul, On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Also, the general rule for most software development projects is: you break it, you fix it. In the context of community software project this attitude is corrosive. If we were all to apply this rule to all the code in the OSG that they didn't personally author how well do you think the OpenSceneGraph or any FOSS project would fair? Not well. To work efficiently we have to all pitch in. You also have to proactive and take responsibility of what you can. I put an enormous amount of effort not just fixing problems, in trying to pull all the work of others together, I'm at the very limit of what responsibility I can take on. Even with avoid taking on professional work for the past three months, I'm till right at the limits. It's pretty well accepted that I'm overloaded by work too much of the time, every year there are discussions about how to lighten my workload, the general principle is that I need others to take more responsibility on, and for me to avoid taking any more responsibilities on. And what do we have in this thread? Ahh yes, you believe now I need to responsible for GL3 testing, and even to point that I've even called unprofessional on not taking this responsibility on. Might I also bring us back to the fact that you had a client pay for your efforts on developing GL3 support, I helped you out with it so for free and without complaint that the extra work I had to take on to achieve the goal - I did it for the greater good of the OSG and to help you out. Now you pushing back at me for not doing enough testing of this work. I give and I give, yet it's still not good enough for you. A lesson to also learn. In the process of this work I fought hard to minimize the code differences between GL3 paths and the rest of the OSG to avoid the chances of build breakages not being spotted, something that you really resisted. Had I not push to minimizes the differences were would be today? Half a dozen files that didn't build due to now need an includeosg/Notify like we just had, or many dozens? Also for this particular build error wasn't due to an direct coding error but a knock on effect from a clean up on the headers, this is the way it is when coding with lots of different code paths, I didn't make any mistake that caused the break the build, but the build broke because the files in question didn't include all the files they should have - the error was in there from much earlier days but not detected. This type of issue is hard to second guess, finger pointing is counterproductive, the only real way to catch it is through testing. Given that I'm already overloaded by pure community work, and given there is just so many different code paths/platforms that we have support there is absolutely no way that I can keep accepting responsibility for more platforms. Saying ah well it's just easy to add an extra one. Even without doing any paid for work I'm still struggling to fix bugs/feature and merge submissions. If I add GL3 as another code path that I have to personally take responsibility what else has to give? Merge less submissions? Work more overtime and spend less time with my family and friends? Do less support? Do less paid work? Oh wait, I've passed up on most professional work for the past 3 months just so I could clear the back log of submissions, and outstanding coding issues so we can get another quality stable release out the door. So Paul, if you don't have the time to support the GL3 path yourself, and I don't then it's time to get others in the community who have access to GL3 drivers/hardware to pitch in. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi J-S -- Thanks for trying to intervene, it's appreciated. Jean-Sébastien Guay wrote: And Robert's under the gun (perhaps his own gun) to get a dev release out the door in a few days too. So suggesting he set up something new at this point in time was the same as him suggesting you fix the code yourself :-) Yes, I did suggest he test the GL3 build, I figured he'd certainly want to do that given that he said he'd tag the release soon. His reply was that I should take my attitude somewhere useful, hardly constructive or professional. Robert is free to ignore my suggestions (he has in the past), but if he tries to make it look like I'm out of line when I'm not, then I'm going to defend myself. Regarding you break it, you fix it, generally, it's more efficient for the person who just committed the change that broke things to create the fix, because it's fresh in their minds. This is how it works on every software project I've ever been involved in, and is true regardless of whether it's a large community project or a small closed source project. In effect, both of you were saying I can't fix this, I'm too busy with other things, you should fix it. And one of you had actually broken it, but the other had the errors right there in front of them. So you both could have fixed it. That's all I wanted to emphasize. Robert isn't angry with me because I didn't submit a fix. he's angry because I said I thought he would want to test a GL3 build before tagging the release. His assertion that I should've fixed the errors came two or three escalated posts later. The thread is in the archives for all to see. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Paul, On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Robert isn't angry with me because I didn't submit a fix. he's angry because I said I thought he would want to test a GL3 build before tagging the release. His assertion that I should've fixed the errors came two or three escalated posts later. The thread is in the archives for all to see. I am angry because of your attitude towards me, accusations of un-professionalism - something based on my inability to live up to your expectations on just how much work I can personally take on. These expectations *are* unreasonable, so I will never be able to live up to your expectations and I will always disappoint. I never said that I would take on responsibility for testing GL3, nor would I volunteer as I have too much on my plate already with GL, GLES 12. Please take a moment to think how you help out more, and if you can't then say so, the community is generally pretty good at taking up slack when asked, GL3 is your baby but you need others to pitch then please go a call out for assistance. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Robert, I am angry because of your attitude towards me, accusations of un-professionalism - something based on my inability to live up to your expectations on just how much work I can personally take on. These expectations *are* unreasonable, so I will never be able to live up to your expectations and I will always disappoint. I think this really underscores the submissions bottleneck for core OSG. I think if you had let someone (or a group of people) take on the less critical submissions, and had been able to totally devote yourself to the harder ones, you would be less exerted and this discussion might not have escalated to the point that it has. I'm not trying to put the blame on you at all, see my other posts where I question some things Paul did/said too... I'm just saying that one less straw might not have broken the camel's back, and suggesting what that straw might be. If we can improve in that area, perhaps things will go smoother in the future. I know it's been discussed in the past, but IMHO it's just one more item of proof that it's something that needs fixing... Maybe we can reopen the discussion with the aim of doing something about it. J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Paul, I need a complete list is am to fix them... :-) Robert. On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Hi Robert -- r11087 is currently broke for GL3 builds. I get errors of this form: 5..\..\..\src\osg\TexEnvFilter.cpp(41) : error C2039: 'notify' : is not a member of 'osg' 5..\..\..\src\osg\TexEnvFilter.cpp(41) : error C2039: 'NOTICE' : is not a member of 'osg' 5..\..\..\src\osg\TexEnvFilter.cpp(41) : error C2065: 'NOTICE' : undeclared identifier 5..\..\..\src\osg\TexEnvFilter.cpp(41) : error C3861: 'notify': identifier not found Fog.cpp, TexEnv.cpp, and ColorMatrix.cpp generate similar errors. Let me know if you need a complete list. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Paul, Is it simply that these .cpp's don't pull in include/osg/Notify any more due to clean ups of the headers? Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Robert Osfield wrote: Is it simply that these .cpp's don't pull in include/osg/Notify any more due to clean ups of the headers? It's only occurring in the GL3 build; GL1/2 builds fine. If it were just a header issue, I'd think it'd be the same for both builds. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Robert Osfield wrote: Is it simply that these .cpp's don't pull in include/osg/Notify any more due to clean ups of the headers? It's only occurring in the GL3 build; GL1/2 builds fine. If it were just a header issue, I'd think it'd be the same for both builds. Thanks for the error file. GL1/2 build fine because for the files you've specified there is not notify usage in the GL1/2 paths, only in the non GL1/2 paths. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Robert Osfield wrote: I need a complete list is am to fix them... :-) Downloading gl3.h from opengl.org would allow you to do your own build. Please remember there is only one of me. I do try and chase up lots of different build combinations, and chase up various bugs but there are only so many hours in the day. I can't be responsible for everything, I need help from all corners of the community. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Robert Osfield wrote: On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: Robert Osfield wrote: I need a complete list is am to fix them... :-) Downloading gl3.h from opengl.org would allow you to do your own build. Please remember there is only one of me. I do try and chase up lots of different build combinations, and chase up various bugs but there are only so many hours in the day. I can't be responsible for everything, I need help from all corners of the community. I understand the need for community involvement when testing on other platforms if you don't own that particular piece of hardware, but this is clearly a different situation. It took me about 5 minutes to download gl3.h and set up an automated GL3 build for CDash on my second system. Regardless of your time constraints, you're just about to tag a release, so I'd think you would take the time to make sure you haven't broken the build. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: It took me about 5 minutes to download gl3.h and set up an automated GL3 build for CDash on my second system. Regardless of your time constraints, you're just about to tag a release, so I'd think you would take the time to make sure you haven't broken the build. I'm working my guts out trying to get things fixed. Please take your attitude somewhere useful. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Robert Osfield wrote: On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: It took me about 5 minutes to download gl3.h and set up an automated GL3 build for CDash on my second system. Regardless of your time constraints, you're just about to tag a release, so I'd think you would take the time to make sure you haven't broken the build. I'm working my guts out trying to get things fixed. Please take your attitude somewhere useful. I reject your assertion that I'm out of line. If you were an employee at any company I've worked at in the past, and were about to tag a release without testing the build, you'd be cited for poor QA. You asked for the errors; I have them to you and told you how you could get them yourself in the future. I'm trying to help you produce a higher quality OSG. If you expect people to test your code changes, you might want to think about being more polite to those of us who help out. We're busy too. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote: I reject your assertion that I'm out of line. If you were an employee at any company I've worked at in the past, and were about to tag a release without testing the build, you'd be cited for poor QA. Right back at you Paul. I'm not the only one responsible for the OSG, the whole community is. This is why I ask the community for help with testing. You asked for the errors; I have them to you and told you how you could get them yourself in the future. I'm trying to help you produce a higher quality OSG. Well the errors are great. But... how's about actually trying to produce some fixes as well. This is what others have been helping out with. If you expect people to test your code changes, you might want to think about being more polite to those of us who help out. We're busy too. Geez, I'm polite to ones that are polite to me. If you give me attitude and I've working my guts out then you are going to get attitude back. You attitude is well out of order. FYI, I have dedicated almost all of my time in the last 2 and half months to purely unpaid OSG work. I do this for the greater good of the software. Almost all the work I've been doing has been able debugging and fixing problems that members of the community have come across. A great deal of work also goes into do proper review of submissions. All this work is unpaid. I don't expect pay, I do it cause I love working on the OSG and working with members of the community. What makes it shitty is when end users like yourself come at me an attidude that I'm not working hard enough. I find your attitude is corrosive. I've worked hard today and really didn't need a downer. THANKS PAUL. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
I hate being the one to get between you two, but I think this is getting out of hand. As is often the case in these heated arguments, you're both right, and you're both wrong. Paul, finding which header is missing from the places where you get the errors would probably not be too hard. Robert, getting a header and trying a GL3 build would probably not be too hard. Paul, Robert has been troubleshooting lots of things today, most of which are threading problems which are notoriously hard to wrap your mind around, and so probably has lots on his mind right now (the mental call stack is getting deep ;-) ). Plus, it's around 9:45 where he is so he's had a long day behind him. Robert, Paul is trying to help in his own way and trying to help you help yourself by telling you that getting a GL3 build going is easy, which is something you might say to other people on the list if the places were reversed (Have you tried running in a debugger, we're not here to debug your code, etc.). Sorry but the last replies have not been constructive. I think the best thing to do is to drop the issue for now, go back to the technical issues, and remember that you're both working towards the same goal :-) And you have been for many years now... Longer than I've been here! I hope by telling you not to flame each other I won't get flamed myself :-) J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Jean-Sébastien Guay wrote: Paul, finding which header is missing from the places where you get the errors would probably not be too hard. I often do provide fixes, but I'm under the gun to get demos out the door in a few days. Also, the general rule for most software development projects is: you break it, you fix it. Robert, keep in mind that words account for only a small percentage of communication, which makes it easy to read attitude into someone's text-only post, where none actually exists. My posts were brief, but hardly deserving of your replies. -Paul ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Robert Osfield wrote: Thanks for the error file. GL1/2 build fine because for the files you've specified there is not notify usage in the GL1/2 paths, only in the non GL1/2 paths. Ah! Makes sense. r11097 has fixes the vast majority of the errors. There is only one dangler at this point: 7ObjectWrapper.cpp 7..\..\..\src\osgDB\ObjectWrapper.cpp(352) : error C2065: 'GL_PERSPECTIVE_CORRECTION_HINT' : undeclared identifier ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] svn trunk build broke
Hi Paul, Paul, finding which header is missing from the places where you get the errors would probably not be too hard. I often do provide fixes, but I'm under the gun to get demos out the door in a few days. And Robert's under the gun (perhaps his own gun) to get a dev release out the door in a few days too. So suggesting he set up something new at this point in time was the same as him suggesting you fix the code yourself :-) Also, the general rule for most software development projects is: you break it, you fix it. I understand where you're coming from, but the fact is that when there are multiple code paths (and even more so when there are code paths determined at configure-time with #defines) it becomes hard and time-consuming to test each and every combination. I think it's reasonable for Robert to rely on the community for some of this, especially for configurations he doesn't use day to day. Just look at how many times I've submitted Windows build fixes in the past 3 years - I cut my teeth in OSG submissions on that stuff! For now, I see GL3 as the same thing - OSG's primary developer doesn't use the configuration (he could, I agree, but that's not the point), so it's up to others to test that it builds and runs for now. Although I also agree with your point that getting an automated build going for each configuration would be easy too, but crunch time was probably not the right time to suggest this... In effect, both of you were saying I can't fix this, I'm too busy with other things, you should fix it. And one of you had actually broken it, but the other had the errors right there in front of them. So you both could have fixed it. That's all I wanted to emphasize. Robert, keep in mind that words account for only a small percentage of communication, which makes it easy to read attitude into someone's text-only post, where none actually exists. That's so true. Most flame wars start because one poster reads more into the words than what was actually there, and then things escalate. J-S -- __ Jean-Sebastien Guayjean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com http://www.cm-labs.com/ http://whitestar02.webhop.org/ ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
