RE: [OT] NBN revisited
This guy..all I rememeber..’if you do know here..blah blah..if you door knock here..blah….’ Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Chere Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:36 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I was living in Riverstone for a while when it was scheduled to be one of the first suburbs in NSW to see the practical benefits of the NBN roll-out after the local ALP puppet Michelle Rowland used the NBN as a key differentiator in her campaign. That was 2007. Luckily my TPG ASDL2 connection was serviceable enough (~8-10Mbps download is more than enough to be productive) so I wasn’t left hanging anyway, but last time I checked what was happening out there they were launching a “Riverstone digital hub” at the end of 2012 in Riverstone Library, ie one single site with anything remotely approaching the promises of the NBN. That’s all they’ve produced. Not a single site, commercial or residential, hooked up. 6 years for a supposed pioneer site to produce effectively zip. I can’t pretend to understand a fraction of the technical or financial complexity of an infrastructure rollout on anywhere near that scale, but I can see when we’re clearly being taken for a ride. When people would rather vote for a dipshit like this than your own candidate you know you’re REALLY doing something wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:55 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Looking at the rollout, it's scheduled to be available for me by end of year. Which is somewhat unfair, being I've already got vdsl2. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:51 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775 tel:%281300%20775%20775 ) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:48 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited What I don’t understand is that if you’re in a built up area, why they don’t just install Fibre to the Home. Copper might do for the short term, but it is expensive to maintain and has all sorts of issues like crosstalk/interference, susceptibility to water etc. Fibre does not have those issues and fibre can last 60 years. Fibre can also give a consistent speed up to 50 kilometres from the node as opposed to copper that degrades significantly after 2 or 3 kilometres. Copper will also max out probably around the 200Mbps – 300Mbps mark from a theoretical maximum around 1Gbps. Other countries are talking about 10Gbps and they have achieved Petabyte transmission speeds in the labs. As David rightly pointed out, if you want to go to even higher speeds, they will need to replace the fibre with even faster fibre and change the technology at the end points, but once it is done properly once, those changes won’t be as difficult to achieve. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
And we’ll pay him $195K/year. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:48 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited What I don’t understand is that if you’re in a built up area, why they don’t just install Fibre to the Home. Copper might do for the short term, but it is expensive to maintain and has all sorts of issues like crosstalk/interference, susceptibility to water etc. Fibre does not have those issues and fibre can last 60 years. Fibre can also give a consistent speed up to 50 kilometres from the node as opposed to copper that degrades significantly after 2 or 3 kilometres. Copper will also max out probably around the 200Mbps – 300Mbps mark from a theoretical maximum around 1Gbps. Other countries are talking about 10Gbps and they have achieved Petabyte transmission speeds in the labs. As David rightly pointed out, if you want to go to even higher speeds, they will need to replace the fibre with even faster fibre and change the technology at the end points, but once it is done properly once, those changes won’t be as difficult to achieve. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:48 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited What I don’t understand is that if you’re in a built up area, why they don’t just install Fibre to the Home. Copper might do for the short term, but it is expensive to maintain and has all sorts of issues like crosstalk/interference, susceptibility to water etc. Fibre does not have those issues and fibre can last 60 years. Fibre can also give a consistent speed up to 50 kilometres from the node as opposed to copper that degrades significantly after 2 or 3 kilometres. Copper will also max out probably around the 200Mbps – 300Mbps mark from a theoretical maximum around 1Gbps. Other countries are talking about 10Gbps and they have achieved Petabyte transmission speeds in the labs. As David rightly pointed out, if you want to go to even higher speeds, they will need to replace the fibre with even faster fibre and change the technology at the end points, but once it is done properly once, those changes won’t be as difficult to achieve. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com mailto:g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:48 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited What I don’t understand is that if you’re in a built up area, why they don’t just install Fibre to the Home. Copper might do for the short term, but it is expensive to maintain and has all sorts of issues like crosstalk/interference, susceptibility to water etc. Fibre does not have those issues and fibre can last 60 years. Fibre can also give a consistent speed up to 50 kilometres from the node as opposed to copper that degrades significantly after 2 or 3 kilometres. Copper will also max out probably around the 200Mbps – 300Mbps mark from a theoretical maximum around 1Gbps. Other countries are talking about 10Gbps and they have achieved Petabyte transmission speeds in the labs. As David rightly pointed out, if you want to go to even higher speeds, they will need to replace the fibre with even faster fibre and change the technology at the end points, but once it is done properly once, those changes won’t be as difficult to achieve. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament
House or is that just me..
I mean the comedic value alone is worth it
On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote:
Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in
him…mmm..that could bring a change!
** **
Anthony
Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others!
http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/*
***
--
NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is
privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication
is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender
by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing
it. (*13POrtC*)
---
** **
*From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com');
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com');]
*On Behalf Of *Tony Wright
*Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM
*To:* 'ozDotNet'
*Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited
** **
** **
Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I
know them better than he does!
** **
What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan
“Er, the first one is stop the boats”
What are the other 5 points?
“Er we plan to stop the boats”
No, the other 5 points?
“Er we plan to stop the boats”
** **
He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to
stop the boats.
** **
What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have.
** **
Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is
worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth
it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to
what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I
want in. Why reward such mediocrity?
** **
** **
*From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *anthonyatsmall...@mail.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM
*To:* 'ozDotNet'
*Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited
** **
Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for
Greenwayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU
this is pretty funny and disturbing video!
** **
This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its
just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles…
--
---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
He won't get the numbers and this morning I was in a cafe eating breakfast and saw him on Sunrise talking about how he's going to take Murdoch to court for slander.. and even still I sit there thinking this guy has to be given a seat in the senate ...if only to make question time more energetic to watch... :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive’s policy platform isn’t necessarily the best one. ** ** Pro “free market” (as opposed to “pro-business) is what’s generally best for *consumers* (even though it’s not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become “rent seekers” lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing’s changed. ** ** Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who’s “pro-business” attitude didn’t really extend to making life better for the general population. ** ** Cheers Ken ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn’t doing well we can’t afford anything else .. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. ** ** I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/* *** -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *anthonyatsmall...@mail.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for Greenwayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… -- --- Regards, Scott Barnes http
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
What, you mean the fat rich pricks we've already got aren't fat, rich or prickly enough? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:07 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited He won't get the numbers and this morning I was in a cafe eating breakfast and saw him on Sunrise talking about how he's going to take Murdoch to court for slander.. and even still I sit there thinking this guy has to be given a seat in the senate ...if only to make question time more energetic to watch... :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive's policy platform isn't necessarily the best one. Pro free market (as opposed to pro-business) is what's generally best for consumers (even though it's not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become rent seekers lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing's changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who's pro-business attitude didn't really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn't doing well we can't afford anything else .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said...I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him...mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps...learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn't even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan Er, the first one is stop the boats What are the other 5 points? Er we plan to stop the boats No, the other 5 points? Er we plan to stop the boats He should have said, well, so it's a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That's how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don't think they're worth it. Mine isn't going to Liberal or Labor. I'm finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.commailto:anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for Greenwayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything...its just a job he is going for...how do these people get
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Maybe but see attached :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.comwrote: What, you mean the fat rich pricks we’ve already got aren’t fat, rich or prickly enough? ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:07 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** He won't get the numbers and this morning I was in a cafe eating breakfast and saw him on Sunrise talking about how he's going to take Murdoch to court for slander.. and even still I sit there thinking this guy has to be given a seat in the senate ...if only to make question time more energetic to watch... :) ** ** ** ** --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com ** ** On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive’s policy platform isn’t necessarily the best one. Pro “free market” (as opposed to “pro-business) is what’s generally best for *consumers* (even though it’s not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become “rent seekers” lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing’s changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who’s “pro-business” attitude didn’t really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn’t doing well we can’t afford anything else .. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/* *** -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:38 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.comwrote: And that’s the real issue. If it’s all about just providing some level of service to people that have no real options today, they we need to just say that, accept that it’s a nation-building public service for the bush and be prepared to wear really major costs in providing it. ** ** But I keep seeing adverts (that I presume I’m paying for), that tell me how important it is for letting businesses be competitive, and how businesses are needing higher and higher speeds. Almost none of the businesses that they are describing are in such areas. They are in areas with some existing coverage or they wouldn’t exist. ** Chicken, meet egg. Egg, meet chicken. (my tangential way of saying they can't exist before the infrastructure exists, and trying for a CBA omits that) When I do work from home, I'm able to hit the data rate I've got easily - I could use more. And that's the fastest VDSL2 that's available. From that BT post - yes, they don't get that the world is no longer asymmetric, if it ever was. ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. ** ** The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama ** ** On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote:** ** But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe?*** * I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill McCarthy *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *GregAtGregLowDotCom *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows he's not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, it's time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Don't agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. That's what business lobbying is about. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive's policy platform isn't necessarily the best one. Pro free market (as opposed to pro-business) is what's generally best for consumers (even though it's not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become rent seekers lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing's changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who's pro-business attitude didn't really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn't doing well we can't afford anything else .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said.I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him.mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps.learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com javascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com'); [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com javascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com'); ] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn't even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan Er, the first one is stop the boats What are the other 5 points? Er we plan to stop the boats No, the other 5 points? Er we plan to stop the boats He should have said, well, so it's a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That's how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don't think they're worth it. Mine isn't going to Liberal or Labor. I'm finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
It'd be pro my business, and damn any others! On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Paul Evrat p...@paulevrat.com wrote: Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn’t doing well we can’t afford anything else .. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. ** ** I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/* *** -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *anthonyatsmall...@mail.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for Greenwayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… -- --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6636 - Release Date: 09/03/13* *** -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Re: taking Murdoch to court...never quarrel with a man who buys ink by the barrel. On 5 Sep 2013 10:07, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: He won't get the numbers and this morning I was in a cafe eating breakfast and saw him on Sunrise talking about how he's going to take Murdoch to court for slander.. and even still I sit there thinking this guy has to be given a seat in the senate ...if only to make question time more energetic to watch... :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive’s policy platform isn’t necessarily the best one. ** ** Pro “free market” (as opposed to “pro-business) is what’s generally best for *consumers* (even though it’s not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become “rent seekers” lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing’s changed. ** ** Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who’s “pro-business” attitude didn’t really extend to making life better for the general population. ** ** Cheers Ken ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn’t doing well we can’t afford anything else .. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. ** ** I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *anthonyatsmall...@mail.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Full interview of Jaymes Diaz, Liberal Candidate for Greenwayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
but.. never quarrel with the man who eats ink by the barrel wait.. :D --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Joseph Cooney joseph.coo...@gmail.comwrote: Re: taking Murdoch to court...never quarrel with a man who buys ink by the barrel. On 5 Sep 2013 10:07, Scott Barnes scott.bar...@gmail.com wrote: He won't get the numbers and this morning I was in a cafe eating breakfast and saw him on Sunrise talking about how he's going to take Murdoch to court for slander.. and even still I sit there thinking this guy has to be given a seat in the senate ...if only to make question time more energetic to watch... :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.comwrote: There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive’s policy platform isn’t necessarily the best one. ** ** Pro “free market” (as opposed to “pro-business) is what’s generally best for *consumers* (even though it’s not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become “rent seekers” lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing’s changed. ** ** Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who’s “pro-business” attitude didn’t really extend to making life better for the general population. ** ** Cheers Ken ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn’t doing well we can’t afford anything else .. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. ** ** I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said…I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him…mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn’t even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan “Er, the first one is stop the boats” What are the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” No, the other 5 points? “Er we plan to stop the boats” He should have said, well, so it’s a 6 point plan but all 6 points are to stop the boats. What a vacuous bunch of pollie we have. Are these people worth $5? That’s how much our first preference vote is worth together for the upper and lower house. I don’t think they’re worth it. Mine isn’t going to Liberal or Labor. I’m finding someone closer to what I believe in and voting for them first and then voting for the party I want in. Why reward such mediocrity? *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *anthonyatsmall...@mail.com *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for x, import restrictions on y, government grants for z Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe that's what a decent playing field is a euphemism for) Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows he's not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, it's time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Don't agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. That's what business lobbying is about. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive's policy platform isn't necessarily the best one. Pro free market (as opposed to pro-business) is what's generally best for consumers (even though it's not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become rent seekers lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing's changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who's pro-business attitude didn't really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn't doing well we can't afford anything else .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said...I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him...mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps...learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.comjavascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com'); [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.comjavascript:_e(%7b%7d,%20'cvml',%20'ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com');] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 6:02 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wow, he didn't even know what the policies of his party were. I think I know them better than he does! What are the 6 points of the 6 point Stop The Boats plan Er, the first one is stop the boats What are the other 5 points? Er we plan to stop the boats No, the other 5
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Talking of wasted space, did anyone see Hugh Heffner in the Big Brother house last night? OMG and this guy is going to be our prime minister? Even the Liberal supporters I know were feeling…awkward. T. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of anthonyatsmall...@mail.com Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 4:11 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU this is pretty funny and disturbing video! This guy is pretty useless..this politick has no idea about anything…its just a job he is going for…how do these people get into such roles… Anthony Melbourne StuffUps…learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential, and is intended only for use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. (*13POrtC*) --- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:48 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited What I don’t understand is that if you’re in a built up area, why they don’t just install Fibre to the Home. Copper might do for the short term, but it is expensive to maintain and has all sorts of issues like crosstalk/interference, susceptibility to water etc. Fibre does not have those issues and fibre can last 60 years. Fibre can also give a consistent speed up to 50 kilometres from the node as opposed to copper that degrades significantly after 2 or 3 kilometres. Copper will also max out probably around the 200Mbps – 300Mbps mark from a theoretical maximum around 1Gbps. Other countries are talking about 10Gbps and they have achieved Petabyte transmission speeds in the labs. As David rightly pointed out, if you want to go to even higher speeds, they will need to replace the fibre with even faster fibre and change the technology at the end points, but once it is done properly once, those changes won’t be as difficult to achieve. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com mailto:g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Lobbyists are always going to keep themselves busy but that just counters the relentless lobbying by welfare groups for non-economy boosting government spending. Unless youre the big 4 banks or Coles or Woolworths with monopolistic characteristics business is pretty tough even in good times. Shouldnt the car industry lobby for government support to keep some sort of car manufacturing in Australia? Wouldnt you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? Or would that just be programmers trying to keep things cosy for themselves ??!! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for x, import restrictions on y, government grants for z Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe thats what a decent playing field is a euphemism for) Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows hes not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, its time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Dont agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. Thats what business lobbying is about. From: mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clives policy platform isnt necessarily the best one. Pro free market (as opposed to pro-business) is whats generally best for consumers (even though its not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become rent seekers lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothings changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman whos pro-business attitude didnt really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isnt doing well we cant afford anything else .. From: mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were Queenslanders. From: mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:02 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Is anyone else just a little bit curious to see Clive Palmer in Parliament House or is that just me.. I mean the comedic value alone is worth it On Wednesday, September 4, 2013, wrote: Well said I believe Julian Assange would get my vote..i see honesty in him mmm..that could bring a change! Anthony Melbourne StuffUps learn from others, share with others! http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Ideas-Incubator-Stuffups-Failed-Startups/ -- NOTICE : The information contained in this electronic mail message is privileged and confidential
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Wouldn't you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? And that's what an economist (and I) call rent seeking - I'm asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. Which is why I'm not particularly enamoured of the idea that business people running the country is good for the economy, because what's good for a particular business person is the opposite of what's good for an economy. The same applies to unionists being good for the economy - they're not. They're good for their particular rent-seeking constituency. As I said before, there's plenty of business people that have gone into government (Thaksin, Berlusconi) that haven't done anything particularly good for the overall economy, which ultimately is what makes us all better off. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:58 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Lobbyists are always going to keep themselves busy but that just counters the relentless lobbying by welfare groups for non-economy boosting government spending. Unless you're the big 4 banks or Coles or Woolworths with monopolistic characteristics business is pretty tough even in good times. Shouldn't the car industry lobby for government support to keep some sort of car manufacturing in Australia? Wouldn't you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? Or would that just be programmers trying to keep things cosy for themselves ??!! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for x, import restrictions on y, government grants for z Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe that's what a decent playing field is a euphemism for) Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows he's not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, it's time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Don't agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. That's what business lobbying is about. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive's policy platform isn't necessarily the best one. Pro free market (as opposed to pro-business) is what's generally best for consumers (even though it's not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become rent seekers lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing's changed. Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who's pro-business attitude didn't really extend to making life better for the general population. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 8:37 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Any pro-business force in parliament can only be good for the country. If business isn't doing well we can't afford anything else .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:52 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Oh I thought the only people ridiculous enough to vote for him were
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Wouldn’t you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? ** ** And that’s what an economist (and I) call “rent seeking” – I’m asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. You have to call it what it is. Which is why I’m not particularly enamoured of the idea that “business people” running the country is good for “the economy”, because what’s good for a particular business person is the opposite of what’s good for an economy. ** ** The same applies to unionists being good for “the economy” – they’re not. They’re good for their particular rent-seeking constituency. ** That it is more broadly based than Twiggy, Gina and Clive doesn't really matter. In the long run it isn't good for us. ** As I said before, there’s plenty of business people that have gone into government (Thaksin, Berlusconi) that haven’t done anything particularly good for the overall economy, which ultimately is what makes us all better off. ** In their case too, it's 'all about them' ** Cheers Ken ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:58 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** ** ** Lobbyists are always going to keep themselves busy but that just counters the relentless lobbying by welfare groups for non-economy boosting government spending. Unless you’re the big 4 banks or Coles or Woolworths with monopolistic characteristics business is pretty tough even in good times. ** ** Shouldn’t the car industry lobby for government support to keep some sort of car manufacturing in Australia? ** ** Wouldn’t you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? Or would that just be programmers trying to keep things cosy for themselves ??!! ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for “x”, import restrictions on “y”, government grants for “z” ** ** Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe that’s what “a decent playing field” is a euphemism for) ** ** Cheers Ken ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** ** ** True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows he’s not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, it’s time for some colour and go-get-it influence.* *** ** ** Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small for that. But in terms of balancing business and welfare safety nets Australia has the best chance. Don’t agree business are rent seekers, they just want a decent playing field then for government to get out of the way. That’s what business lobbying is about. ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:26 AM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** There are multiple ways to cook an egg. Clive’s policy platform isn’t necessarily the best one. ** ** Pro “free market” (as opposed to “pro-business) is what’s generally best for *consumers* (even though it’s not good for an individual business), whereas business people tend to become “rent seekers” lobbying for favours for their industries. Adam Smith noted something similar ~300 years ago in the Wealth of Nations, and nothing’s changed. ** ** Silvio Berlusconi is an example of a successful businessman who’s “pro-business” attitude didn’t really extend to making life better for the general
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I can point you to “case histories” (not provided by NBNCo) where Sydney businesses have moved to the country, in the last 18 months, where fibre trunk was available and they could spur off that to run their businesses. When you compare quality of life, travel time, available staff then (for those businesses) it made sense, and they’re doing very nicely. Not exactly chicken / egg – a little bit of lateral thinking added. _ Ian Thomas Victoria Park, Western Australia From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 8:27 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:38 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: And that’s the real issue. If it’s all about just providing some level of service to people that have no real options today, they we need to just say that, accept that it’s a nation-building public service for the bush and be prepared to wear really major costs in providing it. But I keep seeing adverts (that I presume I’m paying for), that tell me how important it is for letting businesses be competitive, and how businesses are needing higher and higher speeds. Almost none of the businesses that they are describing are in such areas. They are in areas with some existing coverage or they wouldn’t exist. Chicken, meet egg. Egg, meet chicken. (my tangential way of saying they can't exist before the infrastructure exists, and trying for a CBA omits that) When I do work from home, I'm able to hit the data rate I've got easily - I could use more. And that's the fastest VDSL2 that's available. From that BT post - yes, they don't get that the world is no longer asymmetric, if it ever was. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775 tel:%281300%20775%20775 ) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775 tel:%281300%20775%20775 ) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) From: ozdotnet-boun
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Without doubt any elected official acting out their vested interests (no matter what) belongs behind bars, but we were talking about business lobbying, and Im saying its not about making easy lives easier. There is a role for government (and rent seeking beneficiaries if you like) when A. The country is trying to develop a new industry or grow an existing one, B. Phase out an uncompetitive old one, or C, Assist an industry in transition. My point was just that those areas are the main focus of business lobbying, and keeping those areas constant (level playing field) in the face of constant pressures for other changes left agenda / right agendas, other countrys protectionism etc .. Without that and with a fully free-market wed only have mining, some agriculture, tourism, and some construction serving the employees and needs of those industries that werent outsourced to cheap labour overseas. Everything else would come from China, India etc .. What sort of people do you want running the country? Havent we had enough ex-lawyers and unionists. Agree re Berlusconi etc but Turnbull wouldnt make a bad PM. Im not saying Clive would, but a minority role in government would be a good kick in the pants for the rest of them all and make TV a lot more interesting .. Maybe it comes back to basic political views, do you see the role of government as redistributing wealth from those that build it, or as setting the playing fields and enabling individuals and companies to build wealth so we can afford better welfare safety nets etc. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:34 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wouldnt you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? And thats what an economist (and I) call rent seeking Im asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. Which is why Im not particularly enamoured of the idea that business people running the country is good for the economy, because whats good for a particular business person is the opposite of whats good for an economy. The same applies to unionists being good for the economy theyre not. Theyre good for their particular rent-seeking constituency. As I said before, theres plenty of business people that have gone into government (Thaksin, Berlusconi) that havent done anything particularly good for the overall economy, which ultimately is what makes us all better off. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:58 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Lobbyists are always going to keep themselves busy but that just counters the relentless lobbying by welfare groups for non-economy boosting government spending. Unless youre the big 4 banks or Coles or Woolworths with monopolistic characteristics business is pretty tough even in good times. Shouldnt the car industry lobby for government support to keep some sort of car manufacturing in Australia? Wouldnt you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? Or would that just be programmers trying to keep things cosy for themselves ??!! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I think you have a naïve view of what business lobbying is about then. Tax breaks or write-offs for x, import restrictions on y, government grants for z Free markets are best for consumers (and best for business as a whole). It just makes life hard for individual businesses, because it keeps them honest. Which is why so many business people are forever calling for government intervention to make their lives easier (maybe thats what a decent playing field is a euphemism for) Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:28 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited True, Clive and his policies in total are a bit over the top but he knows hes not going to be PM, it will be a long time before there is other than a Lib or Labor PM, but there are too many balls and chains around business and economic progress at the moment and having a slightly over the top pro-business minor party with some kick-arse influence would be unprecedented (I think). Plus the current leaders on both sides are too dull, boring and lame, its time for some colour and go-get-it influence. Agree that total free market is not good for business, the country is way too small
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
I dunno everyone these days thanks to Google are either Economists, Sociologists, Political Science Majors or Civil Engineers. It's hard at times to sift through the opinions mixed with fact to arrive at an accurate snapshot of what's actually likely to happen vs unlikely. Is Abbott a bad PM? He's winning the race so far so that would indicate that most Australians are in agreement with that whether they'd prefer him to be the ideal candidate or not. Is Clive Palmer a serious contender, apparently 6% (by mainstream media polling) state this guy is worth listening to and so on. The collective intelligence of humans isn't exactly something we should all agree are intelligent as we just have to watch Big Brother or Listen to Miley Cyrus before we come to the conclusion that there are massive memory leaks occurring somewhere. NBN is one of this contentious issues where we all want 100mb/s and nobody really is saying no to fast Internet. The problem is we are haggling over the execution plan for it, specifically at what point do you turn and say yeah this is a little more expensive than I had planned ...its kind of like watching House Design (ABC TV show) where you watch these people build this big bold outlandish houses that often starts out with the owner saying I have 1million pounds and then towards the end of the episode they have spent $2million pounds... its not about the cost really its more about the fact that was the end result still worth it. I suspect LNP don't have vision on this per say, I'd wager they saw a weakness in ALP's execution plan and it centred around cost and time to deliver, the figured out a counter proposal that in parts will land in the same region of delivery but with less anxiety risk towards delivery. They are the ones who basically walk up to the house and say You can't have smart wiring and you can't have solar panels and we're all arguing over the return on investment for the said additions but aren't arguing what the compromise between the two positions are. Looking back on it we should have third option to discuss and / or have political parties come together with a smarter compromise but it won't happen? ..so its really down to the party of the day taking advantage of the others weakness whilst feeding off that to pander to our concerns around economy management. No doubt in 4yrs we'll be seeing ALP using the NBNCo as yet another whipping post to highlight see told you we were onto something.. and this topic will agree or disagree with what is said. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Paul Evrat p...@paulevrat.com wrote: ** ** Without doubt any elected official acting out their vested interests (no matter what) belongs behind bars, but we were talking about business lobbying, and I’m saying it’s not about making easy lives easier. ** ** There is a role for government (and rent seeking beneficiaries if you like) when A. The country is trying to develop a new industry or grow an existing one, B. Phase out an uncompetitive old one, or C, Assist an industry in transition. My point was just that those areas are the main focus of business lobbying, and keeping those areas constant (level playing field) in the face of constant pressures for other changes – left agenda / right agendas, other country’s protectionism etc .. Without that and with a fully free-market we’d only have mining, some agriculture, tourism, and some construction serving the employees and needs of those industries that weren’t outsourced to cheap labour overseas. Everything else would come from China, India etc .. ** ** What sort of people do you want running the country? Haven’t we had enough ex-lawyers and unionists. Agree re Berlusconi etc but Turnbull wouldn’t make a bad PM. I’m not saying Clive would, but a minority role in government would be a good kick in the pants for the rest of them all and make TV a lot more interesting .. ** ** Maybe it comes back to basic political views, do you see the role of government as redistributing wealth from those that build it, or as setting the playing fields and enabling individuals and companies to build wealth so we can afford better welfare safety nets etc. ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer *Sent:* Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:34 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Wouldn’t you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? ** ** And that’s what an economist (and I) call “rent seeking” – I’m asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. Which is why I’m not particularly enamoured of the idea that “business people” running the country is good for “the economy”, because what’s good
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 2:21 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Without doubt any elected official acting out their vested interests (no matter what) belongs behind bars, but we were talking about business lobbying, and I'm saying it's not about making easy lives easier. I never said it was about making easy lives easier. Life for business should be relatively hard. That competitive pressure is what spurs them to improve rather than stagnate. Asking government to make their lives easier should be rebuffed. There is a role for government (and rent seeking beneficiaries if you like) when A. The country is trying to develop a new industry or grow an existing one, B. Phase out an uncompetitive old one, or C, Assist an industry in transition. I'm happy to agree to (c) only. Government should not be trying to pick winners - most governments have a dismal record in that sense. However I do agree that we'll face constant disruption in the face of competition (which is now going global), and government has a role in easing the transition for those that are in industries or regions that are going to become obsolete. We need as many educated, in-demand people and businesses as we can get our hands on - and not people with out-dated skills twiddling their thumbs. My point was just that those areas are the main focus of business lobbying, and keeping those areas constant (level playing field) in the face of constant pressures for other changes - left agenda / right agendas, other country's protectionism etc .. Without that and with a fully free-market we'd only have mining, some agriculture, tourism, and some construction serving the employees and needs of those industries that weren't outsourced to cheap labour overseas. Everything else would come from China, India etc .. Sorry - I completely disagree here. The idea that we must to protect Australian business against threats like outsourcing to India and China is exactly the slippery slope that results in the distorting nonsense we see today. Australia has many advantages - a highly educated workforce, first world infrastructure, a robust legal system and this translates into constant innovation and high value goods and services production - the economy is going to do just fine. What sort of people do you want running the country? Haven't we had enough ex-lawyers and unionists. Agree re Berlusconi etc but Turnbull wouldn't make a bad PM. I'm not saying Clive would, but a minority role in government would be a good kick in the pants for the rest of them all and make TV a lot more interesting .. Maybe it comes back to basic political views, do you see the role of government as redistributing wealth from those that build it, or as setting the playing fields and enabling individuals and companies to build wealth so we can afford better welfare safety nets etc. I'm all for free markets - I think that free markets are (in most cases [1]) the best way to improve the lot of the general population in this country. What I don't believe is that business people like Clive are inherently any better at doing this than any other person. A good businessman is not inherently a good economist. Look at half the National party - successful, wealthy farmers, but half are agrarian socialists if you scratch the surface a bit. Cheers Ken [1] I acknowledge that there's market failures due to externalities, information asymmetries, excessive transaction costs, monopolistic markets etc., and so government has a role in trying to ameliorate these failures. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:34 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Wouldn't you want some sort of lobbying against government outsourcing IT / coding to India etc? And that's what an economist (and I) call rent seeking - I'm asking the government to impose an implicit tax/penalty on everyone else (e.g. through paying higher prices) to make life better for myself. Which is why I'm not particularly enamoured of the idea that business people running the country is good for the economy, because what's good for a particular business person is the opposite of what's good for an economy. The same applies to unionists being good for the economy - they're not. They're good for their particular rent-seeking constituency. As I said before, there's plenty of business people that have gone into government (Thaksin, Berlusconi) that haven't done anything particularly good for the overall economy, which ultimately is what makes us all better off. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Thursday, 5
[OT] NBN revisited
Hi all, Now, I should start this by pointing out that it is looking like the Coalition is going to win this election, so this little excerpt is unlikely to change anything, but it’s always good to be informed. This is an excerpt from Peter Cochrane, ex-head of British Telecom, who essentially told the UK parliament how fibre to the node was one of the worst mistakes they’ve ever made. Just about every country that implemented fibre to the node now regrets that decision. As far as governments are concerned, he said …just getting them to realise that they have been misinformed and need to start thinking about the needs of a nation rather than the easy life desires of companies with outmoded thinking. From Peter: The Problem With DUDES in Telco’s 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 2) And their business is founded on a 200 year legacy of copper and not future IT needs 3) They have been used to a monopoly past 4) Like the bankers they have lost all sight of their full responsibilities to the society in which they live 5) Their old technology choices and management systems mean they cannot respond fast to change 6) BUT their was a bit of a golden time when their networks were transformed by optical fibre linking cities 7) In BTs case this saw staffing fall from 242,000 to 110,000, and if they did FTTH it would fall to 30,000 or less 8) AND THEN they did really dumb things like MPLS which is a concatenation of decision errors 9) More equipment and interface types than necessary is really bad engineering 10 And so is over 6000 buildings when you need less than 100 – and this is copper v glass Here are things telco’s real don’t get: 11) The world is not asymmetric 12) The cost go getting bandwidth to any location is zip – 1 bit/s or 10Gbit/s it is the same – civil engineering dominates all cost – even when you already have ducts in place 13) The cost of fibre is much less than copper for long lines and the local loop – there is no difference…. 14) FTTH provides a future proofing, ease of operation, lowest cost and the ultimate flexibility 15) FTTC/K et all with electronics between switch and customer just adds unreliability operating costs 16) PONS – GPON AND BPON et al made sense when fibre was 25p/m but not any more! 17) Direct fibre is simple cheap and reliable and can be built with office grade EtherNet kit 18) Without FTTH we will never have effective 3G or 4G – we need these nodes in offices and homes 19) The UK will be frozen out of Cloud Computing without a bandwidth everywhere 20) Bandwidths like 1Gbit/s might look huge today but they will look puny tomorrow 21) In my lifetime fast was: 90, 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 9600, 18,200, 56,000, 64,000, 365 bit/s…,1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 200, 1000Mbit/s……why would anyone think this progression would stop or even slow down ?? 22) No surprise then the leading industrial nations look upon the UK and its silly debates with pity and amusement whilst they get on with the job. 23) It is worth visiting China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Scandinavia, Jersey +++ to see the actuality and their plans to move up to 10Gbit/s to the home. 24) Over 35% of the UK population work on the move from home office/s, hotels. cars +++ and without bandwidth on the move they cannot achieve what is possible. 25) This country has its back to the financial wall and needs to focus on the GDP enabling technologies and those members of the population that can invoke +ve change to the benefit of all. The very saddest thing for me: 26) I realised that all this was possible in 1979 when I completed my PhD – and then I demonstrated that FTTH worked and was cheaper than copper in1986. By the early 90s BT had built the factories to build these systems and we had commence roll out when the Thatcher government stopped the programme in favour of getting in the USA cable companies – who by the way were not allowed to supply telephony service in the USA! Our collaborators at that time were the Japanese and Koreans….and they just kept going….looking at the UK in amazement as we were left in the dust of time! Now to my position – lest you think me some impractical academic. In my BT life I was employed as: 1) A digger of trenches 2) An installer of poles, cables, telephones PBXs, exchanges 3) A maintainer of PBXs, switches, repeater and radio stations 4) A network designer and planner 5) A research engineer 6) A software writer 7) A designer of test equipment 8) Systems and networks designer 9) Head of Group a then Head of Section and then Head of Division for Transmission Systems 10) Head of Research and then CTO And since leaving BT life and experience has been even faster and even broader… I do hope this helps, Peter Peter also has a couple of interesting articles on the future of the internet: FTTH The only solution, found here: http://www.nexstdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/NExsT-2012-02.pdf
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
? Interesting reading. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. Probably something to do with the public face of the plan being a patronising power-tripping imbecile with no significant IT or Telco industry experience or credibility and even less respect for the public he was (still is) getting paid a motza to supposedly serve – Stephen “Spams Scams” Conroy. For such a significant public investment, things like a detailed cost-benefit analysis made available for open review should be mandatory before approval much less roll-out. To the best of my knowledge this still isn’t the case. They were also pushing things like the mandatory internet filter as part-and-parcel of the NBN which didn’t help (imagine the backlash if PRISM was making news while they were still pushing it?). If you push your product from day #1 with an iron fist attitude and constantly behave like you have something to hide, people won’t want to buy in whether you’re selling a bona fide cure for cancer or rancid snake oil. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:15 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: [OT] NBN revisited Hi all, Now, I should start this by pointing out that it is looking like the Coalition is going to win this election, so this little excerpt is unlikely to change anything, but it’s always good to be informed. This is an excerpt from Peter Cochrane, ex-head of British Telecom, who essentially told the UK parliament how fibre to the node was one of the worst mistakes they’ve ever made. Just about every country that implemented fibre to the node now regrets that decision. As far as governments are concerned, he said …just getting them to realise that they have been misinformed and need to start thinking about the needs of a nation rather than the easy life desires of companies with outmoded thinking. From Peter: The Problem With DUDES in Telco’s 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 2) And their business is founded on a 200 year legacy of copper and not future IT needs 3) They have been used to a monopoly past 4) Like the bankers they have lost all sight of their full responsibilities to the society in which they live 5) Their old technology choices and management systems mean they cannot respond fast to change 6) BUT their was a bit of a golden time when their networks were transformed by optical fibre linking cities 7) In BTs case this saw staffing fall from 242,000 to 110,000, and if they did FTTH it would fall to 30,000 or less 8) AND THEN they did really dumb things like MPLS which is a concatenation of decision errors 9) More equipment and interface types than necessary is really bad engineering 10 And so is over 6000 buildings when you need less than 100 – and this is copper v glass Here are things telco’s real don’t get: 11) The world is not asymmetric 12) The cost go getting bandwidth to any location is zip – 1 bit/s or 10Gbit/s it is the same – civil engineering dominates all cost – even when you already have ducts in place 13) The cost of fibre is much less than copper for long lines and the local loop – there is no difference…. 14) FTTH provides a future proofing, ease of operation, lowest cost and the ultimate flexibility 15) FTTC/K et all with electronics between switch and customer just adds unreliability operating costs 16) PONS – GPON AND BPON et al made sense when fibre was 25p/m but not any more! 17) Direct fibre is simple cheap and reliable and can be built with office grade EtherNet kit 18) Without FTTH we will never have effective 3G or 4G – we need these nodes in offices and homes 19) The UK will be frozen out of Cloud Computing without a bandwidth everywhere 20) Bandwidths like 1Gbit/s might look huge today but they will look puny tomorrow 21) In my lifetime fast was: 90, 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 9600, 18,200, 56,000, 64,000, 365 bit/s…,1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 200, 1000Mbit/s……why would anyone think this progression would stop or even slow down ?? 22) No surprise then the leading industrial nations look upon the UK and its silly debates with pity and amusement whilst they get on with the job. 23) It is worth visiting China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Scandinavia, Jersey +++ to see the actuality and their plans to move up to 10Gbit/s to the home. 24) Over 35% of the UK population work on the move from home office/s, hotels. cars +++ and without bandwidth on the move they cannot achieve what is possible. 25) This country has its back to the financial wall and needs to focus on the GDP enabling technologies and those members of the population that can invoke +ve change to the benefit of all. The very saddest thing for me: 26) I realised that all this was possible in 1979 when I completed my PhD – and then I demonstrated that FTTH worked and was cheaper than copper in1986. By the early 90s
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
The other part is the not invented here syndrome from the coalition. And their owing a favour to murdoch, bigtime. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.comwrote: **Ø **Interesting reading. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. ** ** Probably something to do with the public face of the plan being a patronising power-tripping imbecile with no significant IT or Telco industry experience or credibility and even less respect for the public he was (still is) getting paid a motza to supposedly serve – Stephen “Spams Scams” Conroy. ** ** For such a significant public investment, things like a detailed cost-benefit analysis made available for open review should be mandatory before approval much less roll-out. To the best of my knowledge this still isn’t the case. They were also pushing things like the mandatory internet filter as part-and-parcel of the NBN which didn’t help (imagine the backlash if PRISM was making news while they were still pushing it?). ** ** If you push your product from day #1 with an iron fist attitude and constantly behave like you have something to hide, people won’t want to buy in whether you’re selling a bona fide cure for cancer or rancid snake oil. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:15 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Hi all, ** ** Now, I should start this by pointing out that it is looking like the Coalition is going to win this election, so this little excerpt is unlikely to change anything, but it’s always good to be informed. ** ** This is an excerpt from Peter Cochrane, ex-head of British Telecom, who essentially told the UK parliament how fibre to the node was one of the worst mistakes they’ve ever made. Just about every country that implemented fibre to the node now regrets that decision. ** ** As far as governments are concerned, he said …just getting them to realise that they have been misinformed and need to start thinking about the needs of a nation rather than the easy life desires of companies with outmoded thinking. ** ** From Peter: The Problem With DUDES in Telco’s 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 2) And their business is founded on a 200 year legacy of copper and not future IT needs 3) They have been used to a monopoly past 4) Like the bankers they have lost all sight of their full responsibilities to the society in which they live 5) Their old technology choices and management systems mean they cannot respond fast to change 6) BUT their was a bit of a golden time when their networks were transformed by optical fibre linking cities 7) In BTs case this saw staffing fall from 242,000 to 110,000, and if they did FTTH it would fall to 30,000 or less 8) AND THEN they did really dumb things like MPLS which is a concatenation of decision errors 9) More equipment and interface types than necessary is really bad engineering 10 And so is over 6000 buildings when you need less than 100 – and this is copper v glass Here are things telco’s real don’t get: 11) The world is not asymmetric 12) The cost go getting bandwidth to any location is zip – 1 bit/s or 10Gbit/s it is the same – civil engineering dominates all cost – even when you already have ducts in place 13) The cost of fibre is much less than copper for long lines and the local loop – there is no difference…. 14) FTTH provides a future proofing, ease of operation, lowest cost and the ultimate flexibility 15) FTTC/K et all with electronics between switch and customer just adds unreliability operating costs 16) PONS – GPON AND BPON et al made sense when fibre was 25p/m but not any more! 17) Direct fibre is simple cheap and reliable and can be built with office grade EtherNet kit 18) Without FTTH we will never have effective 3G or 4G – we need these nodes in offices and homes 19) The UK will be frozen out of Cloud Computing without a bandwidth everywhere 20) Bandwidths like 1Gbit/s might look huge today but they will look puny tomorrow 21) In my lifetime fast was: 90, 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 9600, 18,200, 56,000, 64,000, 365 bit/s…,1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 200, 1000Mbit/s……why would anyone think this progression would stop or even slow down ?? 22) No surprise then the leading industrial nations look upon the UK and its silly debates with pity and amusement whilst they get on with the job. 23) It is worth visiting China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Scandinavia, Jersey +++ to see the actuality and their plans to move up to 10Gbit/s to the home. 24) Over 35% of the UK population work on the move
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
I have FTTH :) *yeah sucks to be me huh* and the reality is i barely even scratch the surface of its actual usage levels, given the majority of the internet can't even upload fast enough unless i'm dealing in BitTorrent style behaviour (node to node). Websites usually cap at around 500k-1mb anyway and streaming usually maxes out at around that range as well so assuming I do stumble onto a node that gives me 6mb/s (usually Usenet with 50+ connections running in parallel) in download my entire routing / internal network gets quite busy (resulting in having to buy a descent switch for $1k+) .. So I just scratch my head and think, ok assuming everyones right about the LNP and assuming we need to think big first and worry about the steps last, how does one contemplate the next 5-10 years as this thing gets rolled out? Moreover, does the entire Australian IT sector just sit on its hands for years and wait patiently for NBN to roll out whilst not daring to invest in alternative broadband related IP for fear of it being marked redundant as Fibre to the Home occurs... or do they actually say yeah screw this, taking to long... look we have insert some random wireless good enough solution which then puts more added pressure on FTTH price models reducing the projected returns which then fuels more arguments this is dead on arrival blah blah. It's all good to paint a picture that with Fibre Optic we all level-up in our internet / broadband consumption philosophical needs but It realistically comes down to Short term win long term delay/cost vs Short term stalemate/cost long term win To argue that LNP vs ALP is a bad vs evil is to say we are voting for Rudd vs Abott ... when if you just look over their shoulders you see a bunch of people behind them that we've also not seem to pay a lot of attention towards..for instance we have Albo running the ICT portfolio of the country who to me looks like a Politician that still scratches his head at why his VCR won't work... Then you've got Chris Bowen an Undergraduate in Economics as our countries national Treasurer (thats today) .. and i'm not convinced LNP have some bright stars in their ranks either.. I guess my dilemma is i'm not against having FTTH (clearly I have it already) I'm not entirely convinced that its Build once or nothing approach. I just wonder if it should be a phased roll out and i can see both sides of the argument stack up just as well as one another whilst the core argument for FTTH or bust is simply We don't trust govts to come back and finish the last mile which is to assume should that thought prevail it will also sustain another 1-2 elections (depending on current NBN roll out they are likely have to convince us with 1-2 more federal elections so if you think this one has put pressure on the idea, can you imagine the next election?). Big call. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:51 AM, mike smith meski...@gmail.com wrote: The other part is the not invented here syndrome from the coalition. And their owing a favour to murdoch, bigtime. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.comwrote: **Ø **Interesting reading. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. ** ** Probably something to do with the public face of the plan being a patronising power-tripping imbecile with no significant IT or Telco industry experience or credibility and even less respect for the public he was (still is) getting paid a motza to supposedly serve – Stephen “Spams Scams” Conroy. ** ** For such a significant public investment, things like a detailed cost-benefit analysis made available for open review should be mandatory before approval much less roll-out. To the best of my knowledge this still isn’t the case. They were also pushing things like the mandatory internet filter as part-and-parcel of the NBN which didn’t help (imagine the backlash if PRISM was making news while they were still pushing it?). ** ** If you push your product from day #1 with an iron fist attitude and constantly behave like you have something to hide, people won’t want to buy in whether you’re selling a bona fide cure for cancer or rancid snake oil. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:15 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Hi all, ** ** Now, I should start this by pointing out that it is looking like the Coalition is going to win this election, so this little excerpt is unlikely to change anything, but it’s always good to be informed. ** ** This is an excerpt from Peter Cochrane, ex-head of British Telecom, who essentially told the UK parliament how fibre to the node was one of the worst mistakes they’ve ever made. Just about every country that implemented fibre
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
The problem with cost-benefit analysis’ for something like this type of project, is that there will be a huge “unknowns” number, the size of which people will just argue about. It’s just “kicking the can” down the road. Look at the copper network – when that was being rolled out the concept of using that network for something called “the internet” wouldn’t have ever factored in as a discrete item. Yet I doubt anyone would question that it’s provided an enormous amount of benefit today. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Chere Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:46 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Ø Interesting reading. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. Probably something to do with the public face of the plan being a patronising power-tripping imbecile with no significant IT or Telco industry experience or credibility and even less respect for the public he was (still is) getting paid a motza to supposedly serve – Stephen “Spams Scams” Conroy. For such a significant public investment, things like a detailed cost-benefit analysis made available for open review should be mandatory before approval much less roll-out. To the best of my knowledge this still isn’t the case. They were also pushing things like the mandatory internet filter as part-and-parcel of the NBN which didn’t help (imagine the backlash if PRISM was making news while they were still pushing it?). If you push your product from day #1 with an iron fist attitude and constantly behave like you have something to hide, people won’t want to buy in whether you’re selling a bona fide cure for cancer or rancid snake oil. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:15 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: [OT] NBN revisited Hi all, Now, I should start this by pointing out that it is looking like the Coalition is going to win this election, so this little excerpt is unlikely to change anything, but it’s always good to be informed. This is an excerpt from Peter Cochrane, ex-head of British Telecom, who essentially told the UK parliament how fibre to the node was one of the worst mistakes they’ve ever made. Just about every country that implemented fibre to the node now regrets that decision. As far as governments are concerned, he said …just getting them to realise that they have been misinformed and need to start thinking about the needs of a nation rather than the easy life desires of companies with outmoded thinking. From Peter: The Problem With DUDES in Telco’s 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 2) And their business is founded on a 200 year legacy of copper and not future IT needs 3) They have been used to a monopoly past 4) Like the bankers they have lost all sight of their full responsibilities to the society in which they live 5) Their old technology choices and management systems mean they cannot respond fast to change 6) BUT their was a bit of a golden time when their networks were transformed by optical fibre linking cities 7) In BTs case this saw staffing fall from 242,000 to 110,000, and if they did FTTH it would fall to 30,000 or less 8) AND THEN they did really dumb things like MPLS which is a concatenation of decision errors 9) More equipment and interface types than necessary is really bad engineering 10 And so is over 6000 buildings when you need less than 100 – and this is copper v glass Here are things telco’s real don’t get: 11) The world is not asymmetric 12) The cost go getting bandwidth to any location is zip – 1 bit/s or 10Gbit/s it is the same – civil engineering dominates all cost – even when you already have ducts in place 13) The cost of fibre is much less than copper for long lines and the local loop – there is no difference…. 14) FTTH provides a future proofing, ease of operation, lowest cost and the ultimate flexibility 15) FTTC/K et all with electronics between switch and customer just adds unreliability operating costs 16) PONS – GPON AND BPON et al made sense when fibre was 25p/m but not any more! 17) Direct fibre is simple cheap and reliable and can be built with office grade EtherNet kit 18) Without FTTH we will never have effective 3G or 4G – we need these nodes in offices and homes 19) The UK will be frozen out of Cloud Computing without a bandwidth everywhere 20) Bandwidths like 1Gbit/s might look huge today but they will look puny tomorrow 21) In my lifetime fast was: 90, 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 9600, 18,200, 56,000, 64,000, 365 bit/s…,1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 200, 1000Mbit/s……why would anyone think this progression would stop or even slow down ?? 22) No surprise then the leading industrial nations look upon the UK and its silly debates with pity and amusement whilst
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Now to my position – lest you think me some impractical academic. In my BT life I was employed as: ** 1) A digger of trenches 2) An installer of poles, cables, telephones PBXs, exchanges 3) A maintainer of PBXs, switches, repeater and radio stations 4) A network designer and planner 5) A research engineer 6) A software writer 7) A designer of test equipment 8) Systems and networks designer 9) Head of Group a then Head of Section and then Head of Division for Transmission Systems 10) Head of Research and then CTO And since leaving BT life and experience has been even faster and even broader… Two pages of bloviating from an ex-Telco hack that misses the point. Since 2009, BT has passed 16 million premises with FTTx. Since 2009 NBN Co has passed 200K and a good chunk of those can't order the service. They've also spent 12% of the capex delivering 0.5% of the FTTP connections. His arguments are irrational. They only way to deliver something of this size is to be transport agnostic, stage the delivery and don't do stupid shit like throwing out 3.5million perfectly good 100mbps services that exist today so you can buy 100mbps services that double the cost in 2020. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. The only way to sell the NBN is to ignore time and money. The electorate isn't that stupid. David.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:31 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited They only way to deliver something of this size is to be transport agnostic, stage the delivery and don't do stupid shit like throwing out 3.5million perfectly good 100mbps services that exist today so you can buy 100mbps services that double the cost in 2020. Yet he was the CTO for BT. He’s probably got a reasonable level of experience in how to actually deliver “something of this size” Anyone else sceptical of “the only way to do immensely complex project is…” claims that come from back-seat drivers?
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Wow, you focussed on a less relevant part of the document like a pro! I guess we’ll have to skip the part where the Liberals are spending just as much on the NBN as Labor but getting a significantly inferior system that lacks value for money. And they call themselves economic managers? 19) The UK will be frozen out of Cloud Computing without a bandwidth everywhere 20) Bandwidths like 1Gbit/s might look huge today but they will look puny tomorrow 21) In my lifetime fast was: 90, 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 9600, 18,200, 56,000, 64,000, 365 bit/s…,1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 200, 1000Mbit/s……why would anyone think this progression would stop or even slow down ?? I don’t have a problem with the government focussing on the metropolitan areas first before dealing with the country, but to give us Fibre to the Node in the city? As Cochrane says, 9) More equipment and interface types than necessary is really bad engineering 14) FTTH provides a future proofing, ease of operation, lowest cost and the ultimate flexibility 15) FTTC/K et all with electronics between switch and customer just adds unreliability operating costs A lot of countries are planning 10Gbps networks, and the Liberals are promising 25Mbps. 10Gbps is 400 times as fast as the Liberals promised speed, and 10 times faster than Labor’s. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:31 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Now to my position – lest you think me some impractical academic. In my BT life I was employed as: 1) A digger of trenches 2) An installer of poles, cables, telephones PBXs, exchanges 3) A maintainer of PBXs, switches, repeater and radio stations 4) A network designer and planner 5) A research engineer 6) A software writer 7) A designer of test equipment 8) Systems and networks designer 9) Head of Group a then Head of Section and then Head of Division for Transmission Systems 10) Head of Research and then CTO And since leaving BT life and experience has been even faster and even broader… Two pages of bloviating from an ex-Telco hack that misses the point. Since 2009, BT has passed 16 million premises with FTTx. Since 2009 NBN Co has passed 200K and a good chunk of those can't order the service. They've also spent 12% of the capex delivering 0.5% of the FTTP connections. His arguments are irrational. They only way to deliver something of this size is to be transport agnostic, stage the delivery and don't do stupid shit like throwing out 3.5million perfectly good 100mbps services that exist today so you can buy 100mbps services that double the cost in 2020. Why the Labor Party had so much difficulty selling this we will probably never know. The only way to sell the NBN is to ignore time and money. The electorate isn't that stupid. David.
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Yet he was the CTO for BT. He’s probably got a reasonable level of experience in how to actually deliver “something of this size” Anyone else sceptical of “the only way to do immensely complex project is…” claims that come from back-seat drivers? Err I think you'll find it is the FTTP nutjobs such as yourself that are pushing 'the one true path' line. I've been involved in enough IT projects in the last couple of decades to know that you're in the shit as soon as someone says Let's do this right and let's do this once (English translation: Let's be inflexible and dogmatic). You don't need a masters degree in the blinding obvious to work out turning off 3.5 million hfc services and replacing them with 3.5 million gpon services is a stupid waste of money. Yay - let's spend a gazillion dollars turning 100mbps into 100mbps. David.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. FWIW I think that this type of proposed infrastructure is a good idea, but I’m not wedded to this specific implementation (I just think that it’s better than the proposed alternative) Since you’re been involved in enough IT projects over the last couple of decades you should also know that “all sweeping generalisations are wrong” and that the opposite of “let’s do this right” is “let’s have a hodge-podge of different things that could cripple you in the future”. Both approaches have risks – neither is the “one true path” Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:50 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Yet he was the CTO for BT. He’s probably got a reasonable level of experience in how to actually deliver “something of this size” Anyone else sceptical of “the only way to do immensely complex project is…” claims that come from back-seat drivers? Err I think you'll find it is the FTTP nutjobs such as yourself that are pushing 'the one true path' line. I've been involved in enough IT projects in the last couple of decades to know that you're in the shit as soon as someone says Let's do this right and let's do this once (English translation: Let's be inflexible and dogmatic). You don't need a masters degree in the blinding obvious to work out turning off 3.5 million hfc services and replacing them with 3.5 million gpon services is a stupid waste of money. Yay - let's spend a gazillion dollars turning 100mbps into 100mbps. David.
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? ** ** Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. [ ... ] Since you’re been involved in enough IT projects over the last couple of decades you should also know that “all sweeping generalisations are wrong” and that the opposite of “let’s do this right” is “let’s have a hodge-podge of different things that could cripple you in the future”. Both approaches have risks – neither is the “one true path” Sorry no. If you can deliver something of benefit today for good value, then you should do it. If you have existing infrastructure that is servicing millions of people with 100mbps then you shouldn't pull it out and replace it - that's dogma. Just the thought of spending government dollars going into new apartment buildings and putting fibre next to existing cat5e/cat6 copper runs because of this new fibre religion makes me want to bang my head on the desk. David.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I just find it surprising that instead of focussing on the issues, there is an attack an exceptionally credible personality who is an adviser to the UK parliament! Calling Peter Cochrane OBE a hack just because of your political beliefs is quite an insult. Here is his CV: http://www.cochrane.org.uk/my-cv/ He has the technical knowledge as well, including a Masters in Telecommunications Systems, PhD in Telecoms Transmission and Doctorate in Electronic Systems Design. He is the winner of the IEEE Millenium Medal, won the 2007 Industry award for contributions to UK technology, and has won prizes and awards as long as your arm. He was a technical adviser to the United Nations, Chief Technologist at British Telecom, Head of Research at BT Laboratories So what are David’s qualifications again? Given that I believe Peter Cochrane is very credible, and that, if the New Zealand NBN study is correct, the NBN with fibre to the home is worth A$105 billion dollars to $237 billion dollars to the economy, I don’t see why it can’t be built. It looks to me like it pays for itself! From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:58 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. FWIW I think that this type of proposed infrastructure is a good idea, but I’m not wedded to this specific implementation (I just think that it’s better than the proposed alternative) Since you’re been involved in enough IT projects over the last couple of decades you should also know that “all sweeping generalisations are wrong” and that the opposite of “let’s do this right” is “let’s have a hodge-podge of different things that could cripple you in the future”. Both approaches have risks – neither is the “one true path” Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:50 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Yet he was the CTO for BT. He’s probably got a reasonable level of experience in how to actually deliver “something of this size” Anyone else sceptical of “the only way to do immensely complex project is…” claims that come from back-seat drivers? Err I think you'll find it is the FTTP nutjobs such as yourself that are pushing 'the one true path' line. I've been involved in enough IT projects in the last couple of decades to know that you're in the shit as soon as someone says Let's do this right and let's do this once (English translation: Let's be inflexible and dogmatic). You don't need a masters degree in the blinding obvious to work out turning off 3.5 million hfc services and replacing them with 3.5 million gpon services is a stupid waste of money. Yay - let's spend a gazillion dollars turning 100mbps into 100mbps. David.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:13 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Since you’re been involved in enough IT projects over the last couple of decades you should also know that “all sweeping generalisations are wrong” and that the opposite of “let’s do this right” is “let’s have a hodge-podge of different things that could cripple you in the future”. Both approaches have risks – neither is the “one true path” Sorry no. If you can deliver something of benefit today for good value, then you should do it. If you have existing infrastructure that is servicing millions of people with 100mbps then you shouldn't pull it out and replace it - that's dogma. So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? That seems like dogma to me. Surely any decision on what to do should start with requirements, and work from there. Not start with the solution and work backwards. Cheers Ken
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: ** Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. ** ** I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. ** ** I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. Sorry no. If you can deliver something of benefit today for good value, then you should do it. If you have existing infrastructure that is servicing millions of people with 100mbps then you shouldn't pull it out and replace it - that's dogma. ** ** So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? Nope. I am advocating leaving existing perfectly operational 100mbps services in place rather than replacing them with equivalent speed services with precisely zero difference to the end punter. Moreover, HFC has plenty of juice in it yet and can go well past 100mbps. Any high density resi unit block built in the last half decade or more will have copper in it that can push at least 1gbps to the MDF. Surely any decision on what to do should start with requirements, and work from there. Not start with the solution and work backwards. If you have the fiduciary duty of spending a metric pantload of someone else's money, then you should start with some sort of business case or cost benefit analysis. David
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:54 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. And? What’s the context? Is the better or worse than expected? Without any such information, the above is a meaningless number. You should know that, so stop being disingenuous. So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? Nope. I am advocating leaving existing perfectly operational 100mbps services in place rather than replacing them with equivalent speed services with precisely zero difference to the end punter. Moreover, HFC has plenty of juice in it yet and can go well past 100mbps. Any high density resi unit block built in the last half decade or more will have copper in it that can push at least 1gbps to the MDF. Well, mine (residential unit) doesn’t. As I said before “sweeping generalisation are all wrong”. But let’s just assume mine’s an outlier. You seem to be starting from the solution again. Is that how you run all your projects? Cheers Ken
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
To be fair a lot of teams/companies do often run their projects from the solution first approach Awkward moment. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Connors *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:54 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. ** ** Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. And? What’s the context? Is the better or worse than expected? Without any such information, the above is a meaningless number. ** ** You should know that, so stop being disingenuous. ** ** ** ** So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? ** ** Nope. I am advocating leaving existing perfectly operational 100mbps services in place rather than replacing them with equivalent speed services with precisely zero difference to the end punter. Moreover, HFC has plenty of juice in it yet and can go well past 100mbps. Any high density resi unit block built in the last half decade or more will have copper in it that can push at least 1gbps to the MDF. ** ** Well, mine (residential unit) doesn’t. As I said before “sweeping generalisation are all wrong”. ** ** But let’s just assume mine’s an outlier. You seem to be starting from the solution again. Is that how you run all your projects? ** ** Cheers Ken ** **
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I still haven’t heard anything from you that convinces me David. The NBN is likely to bring in A$105 billion dollars to A$237 billion dollars. That’s a lot of economic activity. A lot of business. A lot of jobs. Even if it breaks even we will be ahead. I think you most definitely fit into: 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business Japan already have 2Gbps. The US have large areas with 1Gbps now. And you are proposing 100Mbps? As a limit? Theoretical maximum for copper is around the 1Gbps mark, and they are only advertising download speeds, not upload. The rest of the developed world are moving to 10Gbps. 23) It is worth visiting China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Scandinavia, Jersey +++ to see the actuality and their plans to move up to 10Gbit/s to the home. We in IT are supposed to be driving economic growth through technology. 25) This country has its back to the financial wall and needs to focus on the GDP enabling technologies and those members of the population that can invoke +ve change to the benefit of all. And that’s supposed to mean us in IT. Yet the antique thinking from some in our own industry is astounding. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:54 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Um, since when am I a “FTTP nutjob”? Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. Sorry no. If you can deliver something of benefit today for good value, then you should do it. If you have existing infrastructure that is servicing millions of people with 100mbps then you shouldn't pull it out and replace it - that's dogma. So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? Nope. I am advocating leaving existing perfectly operational 100mbps services in place rather than replacing them with equivalent speed services with precisely zero difference to the end punter. Moreover, HFC has plenty of juice in it yet and can go well past 100mbps. Any high density resi unit block built in the last half decade or more will have copper in it that can push at least 1gbps to the MDF. Surely any decision on what to do should start with requirements, and work from there. Not start with the solution and work backwards. If you have the fiduciary duty of spending a metric pantload of someone else's money, then you should start with some sort of business case or cost benefit analysis. David
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:54 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. And? What’s the context? Is the better or worse than expected? Without any such information, the above is a meaningless number. You should know that, so stop being disingenuous. It isn't hard to extrapolate the outcome from the above but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. So, all infrastructure deployment projects have linear capital expenditure and end user enablement pathways? That’s the only scenario where I could see that “it’s not hard to extrapolate” an outcome. I suppose every software development project that follows a waterfall methodology must be a huge waste of money – because you spend a lot of money before actually delivering any functionality. And every time someone builds a data centre, it’s similarly a waste of money. Surely you jest? Frankly, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Why don’t you actually put some fact/figures/analysis out there, instead of just “assuming the answer”. But let’s just assume mine’s an outlier. You seem to be starting from the solution again. Is that how you run all your projects? Absolutely. *rolls eyes* Yet, it seems to be how you’re approaching this one. What’s different? You seem either unable or unwilling to string a together a coherent rebuttal or address issues raised. I don’t see how people are supposed to take you seriously here. I really think you’re doing your side of the argument a disservice. Cheers Ken
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: I still haven’t heard anything from you that convinces me David. I doubt there is anything I can say that would convince you. The NBN is likely to bring in A$105 billion dollars to A$237 billion dollars. That’s a lot of economic activity. A lot of business. A lot of jobs. Even if it breaks even we will be ahead. ** ** I think you most definitely fit into: 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 100-230 billion is a hell of an error bar in an estimate. I'm not sure how whether people have GPON at home or not affects any of the work I do or is in any way aligned or not with any of my businesses. Japan already have 2Gbps. The US have large areas with 1Gbps now. And you are proposing 100Mbps? As a limit? Theoretical maximum for copper is around the 1Gbps mark, and they are only advertising download speeds, not upload. The rest of the developed world are moving to 10Gbps. [ ... ] Trent from Punchy might want 10gbps but he is not going to make massive strides in GDP with it. He'll download porn and watch the F1. Mate. HFC can do 100mbps now, can go up to 300-400mbps. My question is why pull this out and replace it with something more expensive that does the same thing. And that’s supposed to mean us in IT. Yet the antique thinking from some in our own industry is astounding. I try to plumb new depths of ignorance whenever I can. I just wish I knew how much data you can keep in flight on a 10gbps resi-grade fibre service to know what the real world performance would be like after building the NBN. David.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
The minimum return expected on the NBN would be A$105 billion dollars and the maximum would be A$237 billion dollars. I don’t see anything wrong with giving a range. The point is that even if the cost of the NBN blows out, we still make money and we still get all the economic activity, jobs, money etc. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:22 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: I still haven’t heard anything from you that convinces me David. I doubt there is anything I can say that would convince you. The NBN is likely to bring in A$105 billion dollars to A$237 billion dollars. That’s a lot of economic activity. A lot of business. A lot of jobs. Even if it breaks even we will be ahead. I think you most definitely fit into: 1) They come infected with the limited thinking aligned with their business 100-230 billion is a hell of an error bar in an estimate. I'm not sure how whether people have GPON at home or not affects any of the work I do or is in any way aligned or not with any of my businesses. Japan already have 2Gbps. The US have large areas with 1Gbps now. And you are proposing 100Mbps? As a limit? Theoretical maximum for copper is around the 1Gbps mark, and they are only advertising download speeds, not upload. The rest of the developed world are moving to 10Gbps. [ ... ] Trent from Punchy might want 10gbps but he is not going to make massive strides in GDP with it. He'll download porn and watch the F1. Mate. HFC can do 100mbps now, can go up to 300-400mbps. My question is why pull this out and replace it with something more expensive that does the same thing. And that’s supposed to mean us in IT. Yet the antique thinking from some in our own industry is astounding. I try to plumb new depths of ignorance whenever I can. I just wish I knew how much data you can keep in flight on a 10gbps resi-grade fibre service to know what the real world performance would be like after building the NBN. David.
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:37 PM, David Richards ausdot...@davidsuniverse.com wrote: Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. At least it wasn't impactful. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. It's like the fake senate parties - No carbon Tax and stop the greens - parties whose sole purpose is to attract those who don't think and funnel votes to the majors. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. It had a significant effect last election - the NBN per se, not the technical detail. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... ADSL - its fantastic if you live in the exchange. VDSL2 - truly is fantastic because its implemented for people who do live in the exchange (high density apartments) and have cat5 or 6 from there to their apartment David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.auwrote: Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html ** ** Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
Like most people, I'd love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government's ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won't make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that's unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years' time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I'd pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here's a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turn bulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-2013 0904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest.
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Looking at the rollout, it's scheduled to be available for me by end of year. Which is somewhat unfair, being I've already got vdsl2. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:51 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.comwrote: Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. ** ** However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. ** ** Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. ** ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. ** ** For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. ** ** The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. ** ** People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. ** ** If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama ** ** On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest. ** ** -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I wouldn't count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many fridges installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I'd love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government's ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won't make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that's unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years' time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I'd pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here's a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turn bulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-2013 0904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
But what's the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We're not even on the we'll think about starting within 3 years map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I'm in an area where they'd make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can't have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can't see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn't count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many fridges installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I'd love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government's ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won't make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that's unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years' time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I'd pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au mailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here's a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turn bulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-2013 0904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest.
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
My experience of long, complex deployments is that the first bit's always pretty hard. You're always running into new challenges and issues. However, once you get enough template rollout processes, then things start to pick up - it becomes cookie-cutter. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:14 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited But what's the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We're not even on the we'll think about starting within 3 years map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I'm in an area where they'd make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can't have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can't see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.comhttp://www.sqldownunder.com/ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn't count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many fridges installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I'd love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government's ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won't make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that's unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years' time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I'd pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.comhttp://www.sqldownunder.com/ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.aumailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here's a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest.
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? ** ** We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe?*** * ** ** I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. ** ** As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. ** ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill McCarthy *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: ** ** Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) ** ** ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *GregAtGregLowDotCom *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. ** ** However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. ** ** Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. ** ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. ** ** For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. ** ** The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. ** ** People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. ** ** If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama ** ** On 4 September 2013 13:53
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
I was living in Riverstone for a while when it was scheduled to be one of the first suburbs in NSW to see the practical benefits of the NBN roll-out after the local ALP puppet Michelle Rowland used the NBN as a key differentiator in her campaign. That was 2007. Luckily my TPG ASDL2 connection was serviceable enough (~8-10Mbps download is more than enough to be productive) so I wasn’t left hanging anyway, but last time I checked what was happening out there they were launching a “Riverstone digital hub” at the end of 2012 in Riverstone Library, ie one single site with anything remotely approaching the promises of the NBN. That’s all they’ve produced. Not a single site, commercial or residential, hooked up. 6 years for a supposed pioneer site to produce effectively zip. I can’t pretend to understand a fraction of the technical or financial complexity of an infrastructure rollout on anywhere near that scale, but I can see when we’re clearly being taken for a ride. When people would rather vote for a dipshit like this than your own candidate you know you’re REALLY doing something wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of mike smith Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:55 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Looking at the rollout, it's scheduled to be available for me by end of year. Which is somewhat unfair, being I've already got vdsl2. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:51 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.commailto:g...@greglow.com wrote: Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775tel:%281300%20775%20775) office | +61 419201410tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.comhttp://www.sqldownunder.com/ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.aumailto:bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest. -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills Click herehttps://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/MZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ== to report this email as spam. This message has been scanned for malware by Websense. www.websense.com
RE: [OT] NBN revisited
And that’s the real issue. If it’s all about just providing some level of service to people that have no real options today, they we need to just say that, accept that it’s a nation-building public service for the bush and be prepared to wear really major costs in providing it. But I keep seeing adverts (that I presume I’m paying for), that tell me how important it is for letting businesses be competitive, and how businesses are needing higher and higher speeds. Almost none of the businesses that they are describing are in such areas. They are in areas with some existing coverage or they wouldn’t exist. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com mailto:g...@greglow.com wrote: But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe? I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ] On Behalf Of Bill McCarthy Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of GregAtGregLowDotCom Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 tel:%2B61%20419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Richards Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] NBN revisited Apart from the use of impacted
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
true but none the less they start out that way. I also think both sides have valid points to this argument about which is better or the right approach. The point i'd make is do you think this entire thing is going to last 1-2 more elections? as does anyone *ACTUALLY* think the NBN roll out will happen within 4yrs on time and under budget... moreover does anyone not think this will become a political football over the next 4-8yrs. All of this is going to be moot post election day as if the polls are correct and if Abott can stay quiet for a few more days and not say anything stupid he's got this locked. So while you guys fight over Copper Good/Bad I'l continue to download on my FTTH :D --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Sure. But how do those turn out (compared to starting from requirements) – especially the really complex ones? ** ** Cheers Ken ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 1:09 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** To be fair a lot of teams/companies do often run their projects from the solution first approach ** ** Awkward moment. --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com ** ** On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Connors *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:54 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited Your antipathy to the current NBN is well known. I have an antipathy for piling up money and setting it on fire. I think that’s called a “straw man” argument – no one’s advocating the mass burning of money. All you’re doing here is drawing a debateable equivalence. Current batting avg: 0.5% of the outcome for 12%. And? What’s the context? Is the better or worse than expected? Without any such information, the above is a meaningless number. You should know that, so stop being disingenuous. So, you’re basically advocating keeping this 100mbps kit, even if it doesn’t meet future requirements, or isn’t fit for purpose? Nope. I am advocating leaving existing perfectly operational 100mbps services in place rather than replacing them with equivalent speed services with precisely zero difference to the end punter. Moreover, HFC has plenty of juice in it yet and can go well past 100mbps. Any high density resi unit block built in the last half decade or more will have copper in it that can push at least 1gbps to the MDF. Well, mine (residential unit) doesn’t. As I said before “sweeping generalisation are all wrong”. But let’s just assume mine’s an outlier. You seem to be starting from the solution again. Is that how you run all your projects? Cheers Ken ** **
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
Same.. I have NBNCo teams outside my house today putting shit on the ground only i'm confused as I have Fibre Optic to my house via OptiComm ..so i'm a little puzzled as to what they are *installing* moreover why i'm higher on the priority list :) --- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:54 PM, mike smith meski...@gmail.com wrote: Looking at the rollout, it's scheduled to be available for me by end of year. Which is somewhat unfair, being I've already got vdsl2. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:51 PM, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.comwrote: Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. ** ** However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. ** ** Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made. I’d pay the $3k-$5k in a heartbeat. ** ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:38 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Apart from the use of impacted, a nice article. ** ** For some reason, this whole argument reminds me of the republic referendum some years back. I knew a number of people who didn't like the idea of a politician appointed president and thought voting No meant the people would vote for the president. ** ** The fact is, the vast majority of people who vote on such things do so without all the facts. Certainly not enough to be responsible for making a decision. ** ** People on this list will tend to be looking at it from a technical point of view. I doubt any of this has any meaning to the population in general. ** ** If the NBN was available in my area, I'd get it. For cable, my only option now is Optus which is what I have. Telstra told me I could get ADSL with a fraction of the data and for a lot more money. If only I had a choice... David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama ** ** On 4 September 2013 13:53, Bill McCarthy bill.mccarthy.li...@live.com.au wrote: Here’s a good read from today : http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/blogs/gadgets-on-the-go/turnbulls-fragmented-nbn-dooms-australia-to-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-past-20130904-2t4cr.html Hopefully that will help some folks see past the one tree and start looking at the forest. ** ** -- Meski http://courteous.ly/aAOZcv Going to Starbucks for coffee is like going to prison for sex. Sure, you'll get it, but it's going to be rough - Adam Hills
Re: [OT] NBN revisited
An interesting point. Does that mean they are just trying to target advertising to get the votes or is that really the focus? *sigh* Of course, Murdoch has already decided if we're getting the NBN. This saturday is just a formality for the masses ;) David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama On 4 September 2013 15:38, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote: And that’s the real issue. If it’s all about just providing some level of service to people that have no real options today, they we need to just say that, accept that it’s a nation-building public service for the bush and be prepared to wear really major costs in providing it. ** ** But I keep seeing adverts (that I presume I’m paying for), that tell me how important it is for letting businesses be competitive, and how businesses are needing higher and higher speeds. Almost none of the businesses that they are describing are in such areas. They are in areas with some existing coverage or they wouldn’t exist. ** ** Regards, ** ** Greg ** ** Dr Greg Low ** ** 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Richards *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:28 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: [OT] NBN revisited ** ** Isn't that really the point of the NBN? To try to make internet access more available? I have no problem with people in the middle of nowhere getting it first because they have few options. I might complain about being stuck with optus but I still get 20Mb/s down and I think 0.25 up. I know people in outer suburbs that just can't get it at all. I'm not talking rural. Sure it means I don't get my FTTH in the foreseeable future but it is the fair option. ** ** The fibre part of this whole argument is, strictly speaking, secondary. Making internet access available to all for a reasonable cost is more important. On that note, charging $5000 to get that access isn't really the same thing. For many, you may as well say they can't have it. David If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... checkmate! -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama ** ** On 4 September 2013 15:13, GregAtGregLowDotCom g...@greglow.com wrote:** ** But what’s the alternative Bill? Wait for the NBN? We’re not even on the “we’ll think about starting within 3 years” map. And all they keep doing with the current targets is downgrading them. So what chance do we have of seeing it in anything like a reasonable timeframe?*** * I’m in an area where they’d make a lot of money by rolling it out. So by their logic, we can’t have it. If, however, I lived out the back of Ballarat, no problems. As I said, conceptually I love the idea. I just can’t see it actually being delivered. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill McCarthy *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:06 PM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited I wouldn’t count on that running that smoothly. It will take time to get that many “fridges” installed everywhere: thinking it can all be done in three years sounds incredibly hopeful to me. But even once that is done, then the fibre has to be physically installed down the road/streets. If that is done on an ad-hoc, one house here, one house there, not only is it terribly unproductive, but you can expect a whole lot of council backlash against the interruption to pedestrian and vehicle traffic etc, etc. Seriously, you should try to get Telstra to run you some cable today and see what the costs are and how long it takes: Only $5K from the exchange to your house: dreaming ;) *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *GregAtGregLowDotCom *Sent:* Wednesday, 4 September 2013 2:51 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: [OT] NBN revisited Like most people, I’d love to have FTTH. However, I have zero confidence in the current government’s ability to deliver it in a reasonable timeframe. Wishing for it won’t make it happen. Given a choice between paying $3K-$5k to connect our house to a local node in 2016, and a dream of a service that’s unlikely to appear before I retire in about 10 years’ time, there really is no serious choice to be made
