Re: [ozmidwifery] BF video

[Jennifer Price]

Judy, I've just got back from holidays and would love to be sent a copy of the 
breastfeeding video cheers Jenni  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Dean Jo]

Personally Andrea, my hubby was far more traumatized by my second birth
-my episiotomies vbac- than my horrific cs of my first. It wasn’t until
I had my third did he truly understand what I was on about.  He was mute
with the first.  Scared sh*tless with the second.  He laughed and cried
with our last.

The energy in the room really influenced how he interpreted the event.
I also, in my role of a doula, I find dads looking for some kind of
reassurance that everything is okay.  I often say, isn't it amazing what
your partners body can do?  I never say anything in the negative about
bulging vulvas or the stretched peris...just how brilliant women's
bodies are.

As a woman, I would love to expereince a birth of one of my children in
the company of just other women.  I think it would be amazing.

Amazing amazing ...why is it I use that word so often when talking about
birth!?

jo


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrea
Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:26 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births


This is an interesting report in today's Sydney Morning Herald. I
remember 
Michel Odent talking about research done in the US that explored the
effect 
on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had been exposed to the 
birth process. Michel was advocating that women might want to retain
some 
of their sexual mystery by excluding men from the birth room. I have
been 
at births where I wondered how the father was taking the sight of a 
practitioner cutting an episiotomy.
What does everyone think about this?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html

Regards,

Andrea

-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report)

[Vedrana Valčić]

Thank you for this, Rachel. I am very interested in this subject because in 
Croatia, you become a midwife after graduating from a high school for midwives. 
There is no university-level education afterwards and I was under an impression 
that if we (women and midwives together) manage to convince our Ministry of 
Health to start educating midwives at that, higher level, a major step would be 
accomplished. Now I realize that there is much more to it.

So midwives working in the public health system in Australia don't have the 
same autonomy as do independent midwives? How about training? Is it all 
self-study after graduating from college?

Vedrana


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of wump fish
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:32 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries 
(http://theaustralian.com.au report)

Even if it is the same curriculum in Australia - it is set within a 
different context.

Correct me if I am wrong (still getting to grips with the system here). A 
student midwife in Australia is 'mentored' by midwives working in the public 
health system. Because these midwives are limited in their autonomy and 
skills, the student will also be limited.

Students are also subject to the cultural and social perceptions of 
midwifery where they train. If most people perceive midwives as nurses 
working in maternity - it is difficult to develop an identity as a midwife 
(I am struggling to maintain my own professional identity).

In the UK the midwives I trained with were 'midwives', they did not also 
work as nurses, nor refer to themselves as nurses. Women in the UK called us 
midwives and had an understanding and respect for our role. During my 
practice as a team midwife - women would ring us to tell us they were 
pregnant. We would send a letter to their GP to let them know (out of 
courtesy), then provide all the woman's care until 6wks postnatal. Women 
refer to midwives as 'my midwife' and ask each other 'who is your midwife'.  
Are Australian students exposed to this kind of reciprocal relationship with 
women?

Midwifery is not just about clinical skills - it is about philosophy, 
culture, experience, politics etc etc.

Rachel



From: Vedrana ValÄ?ić [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries 
(http://theaustralian.com.au report)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:13:18 +0200

This is the minimum of what European midwives have to learn, either in 3 
years of practical and theoretical studies (after 10 years of general 
school education) or in 18 months (for qualified nurses responsible for 
general care):

TRAINING PROGRAMME FOR MIDWIVES
The training programme for obtaining a diploma, certificate or other 
evidence of formal qualifications in midwifery consists of the following 
two parts:
A. THEORETICAL AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION
(a) General subjects
1. Basic anatomy and physiology
2. Basic pathology
3. Basic bacteriology, virology and parasitology
4. Basic biophysics, biochemistry and radiology
5. Paediatrics, with particular reference to new-born infants
6. Hygiene, health education, preventive medicine, early diagnosis of
diseases
7. Nutrition and dietetics, with particular reference to women, new-born
and young babies
8. Basic sociology and socio-medical questions
9. Basic pharmacology
10. Psychology
11. Principles and methods of teaching
12. Health and social legislation and health organization
13. Professional ethics and professional legislation
14. Sex education and family planning
15. Legal protection of mother and infant
(b) Subjects specific to the activities of midwives
1. Anatomy and physiology
2. Embryology and development of the foetus
3. Pregnancy, childbirth and puerperium
4. Gynaecological and obstetrical pathology
5. Preparation for childbirth and parenthood, including psychological
aspects
6. Preparation for delivery (including knowledge and use of technical
equipment in obstetrics)
7. Analgesia, anaesthesia and resuscitation
8. Physiology and pathology of the new-born infant
9. Care and supervision of the new-born infant
10. Psychological and social factors
B. PRACTICAL AND CLINICAL TRAINING
This training is to be dispensed under appropriate supervision:
1. Advising of pregnant women, involving at least 100 pre-natal 
examinations.
2. Supervision and care of at least 40 women in labour.
3. The student should personally carry out at least 40 deliveries; where 
this
number cannot be reached owing to the lack of available women in
labour, it may be reduced to a minimum of 30, provided that the student
participates actively in 20 further deliveries.
4. Active participation with breech deliveries. Where this is not possible
because of lack of breech deliveries practice may be in a simulated
situation.
5. Performance of episiotomy and initiation into 

Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rd degree tears

[Sue Cookson]

Hi Lindsay,
At what gestation did the u/sound miss your twins pregnancy?
Anyone else have a similar story?

Sue

  
  

  
  
  
  I had
ultrasounds on the day of birth of
my last two babies, I was overdue both times and had to see
Obstetrician.
These were my 4th and 5th children. Number 4 he
said would be large. At least 9lbs. He was 7lb 3oz. Number 5,
I think he was remembering his previous error and said this was not a
big
baby. He was 9lb 1oz. I have little faith in USS. Keeping in
mind that my twins were also missed on USS and picked up on Abdo palp.
  Lindsay
  
  
  
  
  
  

RE: [ozmidwifery] BF video

[Vedrana Valčić]

I've sent it to you for Judy, because of her slow line.

Vedrana

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Price
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:45 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] BF video

Judy, I've just got back from holidays and would love to be sent a copy of the 
breastfeeding video cheers Jenni  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Any unauthorised use, alteration, disclosure, distribution or review of this 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report)

[Emily]

can you let us know how the c-section conference goes Rachel ? 
emilywump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks Denise! What a lovely response.Moving to Australia has re-ignited my fighting spirit regarding women's birth rights. There is so much to fight for and so many motivated, strong midwives and birthing women. I am looking forward to what we can all achieve together for the future of childbirth in Australia.By the way, is anyone going to the Wesley Hospital (Qld) on Saturday for the 'C-section: the way of the future' conference? Should be interesting/infuriating.RachelFrom: "Denise Hynd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auTo: Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report)Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:18:02 +0800Dear RachelI find your fe!
 dd back
 very perceptiveit seems that the obs are behavinglike threatened children.And previouslyRegarding the 3rd degree tear stats. I would be interested to know wherethis research is from. As far a I know no-one has researched physiologicalbirth and it's impact on the perineum - probably because so few womenexperience it.I hope all future midwives have half the abilities you have shown on this list in only 2 emailsYou have given me great cheer for the futre of midwifery!!Denise Hynd"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled."- Linda Hes- Original Message - From: "wump fish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:02 PMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report)As a newcomer to Australia from the UK - it seems that the obs are behaving like threatened children.Firstly, their stats can flawed. Other developed countries have also looked at the evidence and concluded that midwife-led, community-based care is effective, efficient and safe. For example, the UK is moving towards a midwifery-led birth centre model based on research about what women want and what is safe.Secondly, even if midwifery-led birth is unsafe (which it is not). Surely women's right to choose this option should be maintained. Women should be able to access a wide range of birth options from independent mws to
 elective c-section. Interesting that a woman's right to opt for an elective c-section/induction is upheld by the obs despite the wealth of research demonstrating it is not the safest choice for mother or baby. However, they want to block a woman's right to choose midwifery-led care based on safety claims. Is this about safety or power?I am deeply disturbed by the amount of hostility directed at mws by obs. We should be working together - mw being the experts in physiological birth, and obs being the experts in complicated birth.RachelFrom: "Sally-Anne Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auTo: Subject: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralia!
 n.com.au
 report)Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:23:49 +1000- Original Message -From: SallyTo: Sally-Anne BrownSent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:11 AMSubject: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report) Sally ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) suggested you might be interested in this http://theaustralian.com.au report. 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries Adam Cresswell, Health editor 30 August 2005 THE safety of midwife-led birthing units has been doubted and the most reliable evidence suggests babies born in such centres are 85 per cent more likely to die during or shortly after birth, compared with babies!
  born in
 major hospitals. Leading obstetrician Andrew Pesce said yesterday that a review by the international Cochrane Collaboration - considered the best source of evidence for medical claims - found that home-like settings for births were associated with "modest benefits". Dr Pesce said these benefits included higher rates of breastfeeding, more satisfied mothers and slightly higher rates of spontaneous vaginal childbirth (as opposed to surgical deliveries). However, the Sydney-based Dr Pesce - who is also secretary of the industrial lobby group the National Association of Specialist Obstetricians and Gynaecologists - said the review, published late last year, also found babies born in home-like settings such as midwife-run centr!
 es ran an
 85 per cent higher risk of death around the time of childbirth. However, the overall rate is still very low - about eight babies in 1000 live births in 2002, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Dr Pesce also said studies that midwives sometimes used to back up their safety claims were scientifically inferior, usually because their subjects were not randomised - an accepted technique to remove bias. "Everybody says it's been 

[ozmidwifery] All our fault!

[Mary Murphy]

Rising maternal
weight may be driving testicular cancer increases
25 August 2005

Examining whether maternal weight was associated with testicular cancer
incidence around World War II, when food availability was low.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Vedrana Valčić]

My husband was traumatized by my birth (and so was I). After the ob decided to 
use vaccuum extraction, he was sent out of the room and just listened to all 
what was happening. When our son (Vid) was born, he was called back into the 
room and was shocked with all the blood (they did an episiotomy), so I can 
understand the part in the article where the author writes about stress related 
to a threat to the physical integrity of oneself or others. On top of that, we 
didn't know if Vid was going to be OK (he was). 

I remember consciously postponing analyzing what happened for about two months, 
when I finally started feeling less overwhelmed with taking care of my new baby 
and had some time to think about everything and talk about it with my husband. 
I was able to get over it, talking about it with my friends who had natural 
births helped very much, but my husband still feels uneasy when we talk about 
my birth. The ob told him right after birth to get me to listen to them more 
the next time (hahaha). 

Anyway, I haven't noticed any sexual problems :), then again, he didn't get to 
see the bulging vagina ;), but I think that the reason why some men might feel 
traumatized is because women's bodies are so sexualized - just as we lost the 
link between breasts and brestfeeding and it's disturbing for some to see a 
woman's breast in a baby's mouth, maybe the link between vagina and  giving 
birth is also lost. But that's what they are for, when you really think about 
it. I am so grateful for my breasts now, I see them in a totally different way, 
it is just amazing what they can do. I suppose women who had a natural birth 
feel the same way about their reproductive organs and the whole body.

Plus, the nature never intended for women to birth in a litothomy position. I 
mean, when a woman gives birth in a different position, I guess it's not that 
easy to see the bulging part :), or is it?

I agree with what everyone else wrote about the setting, interventions, being 
an observer, energy and so on.

Vedrana

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean  Jo
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:51 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

Personally Andrea, my hubby was far more traumatized by my second birth
-my episiotomies vbac- than my horrific cs of my first. It wasn't until
I had my third did he truly understand what I was on about.  He was mute
with the first.  Scared sh*tless with the second.  He laughed and cried
with our last.

The energy in the room really influenced how he interpreted the event.
I also, in my role of a doula, I find dads looking for some kind of
reassurance that everything is okay.  I often say, isn't it amazing what
your partners body can do?  I never say anything in the negative about
bulging vulvas or the stretched peris...just how brilliant women's
bodies are.

As a woman, I would love to expereince a birth of one of my children in
the company of just other women.  I think it would be amazing.

Amazing amazing ...why is it I use that word so often when talking about
birth!?

jo


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrea
Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:26 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births


This is an interesting report in today's Sydney Morning Herald. I
remember 
Michel Odent talking about research done in the US that explored the
effect 
on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had been exposed to the 
birth process. Michel was advocating that women might want to retain
some 
of their sexual mystery by excluding men from the birth room. I have
been 
at births where I wondered how the father was taking the sight of a 
practitioner cutting an episiotomy.
What does everyone think about this?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html

Regards,

Andrea

-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com


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Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rd degree tears

[Janet Fraser]

A woman I know who was given 3 
u/s in labour (to see where the baby was...)as well as countless others 
through her pregnancy, was eventually told she had no option but c-sec for her 
breech baby. When they cut into her, they sliced straight through her placenta 
because NO ONE HAD PICKED UP SHE HAD COMPLETE PLACENTA PRAEVIA in all those 
scans!
So yes, apparently a great 
deal does depend on the skills of the careprovider. Major Melbourne hospital was 
responsible for that.
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Sue 
  Cookson 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:46 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rd degree 
  tears
  Hi Lindsay,At what gestation did the u/sound miss your 
  twins pregnancy?Anyone else have a similar story?Sue
  


!--[if mso 9]-- 

!--[endif]-- 

I had ultrasounds 
on the day of birth of my last two babies, I was overdue both times and had 
to see Obstetrician. These were my 4th and 5th 
children. Number 4 he said would be large. At least 9lbs. 
He was 7lb 3oz. Number 5, I think he was remembering his previous 
error and said this was not a big baby. He was 9lb 1oz. I have 
little faith in USS. Keeping in mind that my twins were also missed on 
USS and picked up on Abdo palp.
Lindsay

Re: [ozmidwifery] BF video

[nicole and gareth]

Judy
would love a copy of the video too if possible
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 thanks nicole

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[no subject]

[Melissa Singer]

Hi all,

I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous scenerio 
which happened at my work today. A woman who was having her fourth baby, 
three previous being vaginal births and one of which was a uncomplicated vaginal 
breech birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech at 38 weeks. Upon 
looking through the notes the only options that were documented as being offered 
to her were C/S or "risky ECV". 

This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, with 
only her last two visits showing a non engaged breech presentation. I 
surely hope they palpated her before performing the C/S today.

Whats evenmore ridiculous is that she had her 
previous babies at our hospital under the same obstetricians as today. Our 
obstetricians are very experienced and in the past routinely did vaginal breech 
births, with a couple still doing them. This poor lady had simply gone to 
the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong obstetrician for her!

Her other three babies were all born within the 
last five years!

Times are changing fast!

[ozmidwifery] RE:

[Ken WArd]

What 
fool the woman to believe the rubbish obliviously told her, she already 
had the proof of a breech vaginal birth. I would love to have a chat with 
her. some women do think a c/s is easier and jump at the chance when one is 
offered.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Melissa 
  SingerSent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 7:22 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: 
  Hi all,
  
  I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous 
  scenerio which happened at my work today. A woman who was having her 
  fourth baby, three previous being vaginal births and one of which was a 
  uncomplicated vaginal breech birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech 
  at 38 weeks. Upon looking through the notes the only options that were 
  documented as being offered to her were C/S or "risky ECV". 

  
  This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, 
  with only her last two visits showing a non engaged breech presentation. 
  I surely hope they palpated her before performing the C/S today.
  
  Whats evenmore ridiculous is that she had 
  her previous babies at our hospital under the same obstetricians as 
  today. Our obstetricians are very experienced and in the past routinely 
  did vaginal breech births, with a couple still doing them. This poor 
  lady had simply gone to the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong obstetrician 
  for her!
  
  Her other three babies were all born within the 
  last five years!
  
  Times are changing 
fast!

[ozmidwifery] Re:

[Susan Cudlipp]

Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname 
:-))
Yes, happened today - how sad.
Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with 
RPOC post emergency C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had vaginal 
breech with no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came into 
labour on 'the wrong day' with no 3!

There have been several incidents of what would 5 
years ago been considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, being 
rushed off to theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was at least 
7cms) justified by that accursed so-called breech trial! Really sad 
how the skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no longer taught or 
used.

Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A 
small story on a 23 week bub who had done very well, however they did state that 
she had been one of twins, the other having died (or been terminated?? due to 
complications - sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids making noise at the 
time)
BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to 
have a C/S at 23 weeks because the 'placenta was growing through a previous C/S 
scar'

I find it very interesting to read the recent VBAC 
recommendations and guidelines given to women -states clearlythat 
VBAC is in many cases preferable to repeat C/S - so why are they so keen to do 
the C/S in the first place

Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing"Edmund Burke

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Melissa Singer 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 
  PM
  
  Hi all,
  
  I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous 
  scenerio which happened at my work today. A woman who was having her 
  fourth baby, three previous being vaginal births and one of which was a 
  uncomplicated vaginal breech birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech 
  at 38 weeks. Upon looking through the notes the only options that were 
  documented as being offered to her were C/S or "risky ECV". 

  
  This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, 
  with only her last two visits showing a non engaged breech presentation. 
  I surely hope they palpated her before performing the C/S today.
  
  Whats evenmore ridiculous is that she had 
  her previous babies at our hospital under the same obstetricians as 
  today. Our obstetricians are very experienced and in the past routinely 
  did vaginal breech births, with a couple still doing them. This poor 
  lady had simply gone to the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong obstetrician 
  for her!
  
  Her other three babies were all born within the 
  last five years!
  
  Times are changing fast!
  
  

  No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG 
  Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 
  30/08/2005

Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Susan Cudlipp]

Couldn't resist adding my bit to this one!
First bub was elective C/S, which hubby found very ho hum, not really a 
worry or a turn off, but not very exciting either - his words were it's a 
bit like ordering your baby at the department store
2nd bub was VBAC but VERY medicalised- I had so much in the way of 
intervention and drugs that he spent the most part of the very long labour 
totally bored and not at all a part of anything - I was either off my face 
or asleep (post epidural) so it was not exactly a sharing experience for 
either of us. Not turned off exactly but not very impressed at all ( and 
neither was I )  He was there and supplied what ever was needed, but didn't 
really feel involved.
3rd bub was totally natural, fast furious and exciting. I was very 
uninhibited and undrugged, couldn't stand the restriction of clothing so 
stripped off.  It was in a small hospital and the midwife and doctor both 
took a back seat and let us and our support friend (fellow midwife) get on 
with it - I caught bub with my own hands.  Moaned and moved as I felt the 
need.  He was so involved this time and very supportive, got very teary when 
she arrived, and confessed to me later that he had been really turned on 
while I was in labour!   (I took this as a compliment :-))  We both have 
very fond memories of that birth and I know that he enjoyed it as much as I 
did..


Sue
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing

Edmund Burke
- Original Message - 
From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births


This is a very interesting article and topic. I wonder if the type of 
birth experience influences how men feel.


I think one of points the article misses is that physiological childbirth 
is a sexual event (and I don't mean sexually stimulating). It involves the 
same hormones, parts of the body, noises etc. Men notice this eg. my 
friend's husband pointed out that she looked like she was 'coming' during 
labour - she responded by swearing and banishing him to another room (it 
was a homebirth).


I think the mixture of their partner's body and the medical/surgical 
setting could cause problems. My husband hates hospital and found the 
environment during my first birth stressful. Second baby was born at home 
and he was much more relaxed. At home men can also 'get away' if they need 
to - it is their house, they can go into the kitchen etc = more control 
over what they see. I have seen many a man trapped in the delivery room, 
desperately trying to avoid seeing the placenta or perineum etc.


Another friends husband had problems sexually after seeing her in stirrups 
being sutured. I suture without stirrups and draps because I think it has 
an impact on both the woman and partners.


The impact of witnessing birth is probably dependent on the birth 
experience and the individual couple.


Rachel





From: Andrea Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:55:37 +1000

This is an interesting report in today's Sydney Morning Herald. I remember 
Michel Odent talking about research done in the US that explored the 
effect on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had been exposed to 
the birth process. Michel was advocating that women might want to retain 
some of their sexual mystery by excluding men from the birth room. I 
have been at births where I wondered how the father was taking the sight 
of a practitioner cutting an episiotomy.


What does everyone think about this?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html

Regards,

Andrea

-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Lea Mason]

As someone who facilitates couples' preparation for birth as part of a 
comprehensive 12 week course that essentially gives the dads training 
similar to a doula's, I see this article as addressing something that 
happens when dads are unprepared.


The type of birth experience doesn't seem to determine how the dad will 
react to it.


For example, I have a friend (no preparation that I know of) who had a 
straightforward, natural, 5 hour labour with a known midwife and when I 
asked the dad whether he enjoyed being at the birth he said, It was like 
being the first person at a bus crash. And then I have dads who have 
prepared with me and their partner ends up having a caesarean but they know 
they worked together as a team and he has seen her labour amazingly and 
thinks she is so courageous and feels good about the experience because they 
did everything they could but the baby's positioning made the surgery a 
life-saving thing.


When dad's are at their children's birth and they have enough knowledge to 
truly advocate for their family as well as to help in very practical ways if 
needed (massage, counter-pressure, encouragement etc) there is a bonding 
opportunity that is very powerful. When the birth is safe and gentle and 
joyous and the dad can say in years to come, I was the first one to touch 
you, or I helped when you were born this is an amazing thing for a 
family.


When dads have been prepared by watching beautiful birth videos that show 
how birth *can* be and also prepare them for what their partner may look 
like in the different stages of labour, when they know what the emotional 
signposts of labour are and what the physical signs are and what their 
partner needs at each of these, when they know to ask questions like Is 
this procedure really necessary for our unique situation or is it just 
routine and Are mum and baby healthy? What are you afraid might happen? 
What choices do we have? What might happen if we just wait?, when they have 
an understanding of possible interventions so that they can truly make an 
informed choice as part of the team, when they have practised with their 
partner so that she is able to relax to his voice and touch, when he knows 
to remind his partner to take one contraction at a time, when he knows how 
to help his partner re-focus if neededwhen he's this prepared and 
acting as an advocate his partner is not likely to get an episiotomy anyway, 
and if there are interventions he knows that they have been decided on for 
good reason. He has seen and inspired his partner to prepare for this birth 
during pregnancy, by staying healthy with excellent nutrition and exercise 
and learning about the birth process and he has seen her approach the birth 
with confidence and he has seen her labour wonderfully and he has taken part 
in all of this too. PTSD??? Not part of the equation. Less sexual 
attraction??? He is more attracted to this birthing goddess. And he has 
learned to make decisions for his family. And he has learned to be 
discerning about their medical care. And he has the support of other men who 
have shared this journey of preparation and realisation for the last 3 
months (in the birth class).


There will always be men who don't want to bother with preparation for 
birth - just as there will always be women who also don't want to think 
about the birth until they are actually in labour. But maybe if they knew 
the potential this experience presents for their family, for their 
relationship with their partner, for their own self-growth and 
self-esteem...
often the men get dragged along to the classes and by the end of the time 
they are the most vocal supporters and tell everyone they know how wonderful 
it is to prepare.


I know I'm an idealist but the article (which ran in the NY Times as well) 
doesn't do anything to inform men that there is an option to educate 
themselves and make the most of the empowering experience birth can be for 
women and their partners. I'm just trying to make a difference...one family 
at a time...one baby at a time...



Lea Mason, AAHCC
Certified Bradley® Natural Childbirth Educator  Labour Support Professional
http://www.birthsteps.com.au

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[ozmidwifery] Fw: Midwife criticism 'misused statistics' (http://theaustralian.com.au report)

[Sally-Anne Brown]

- Original Message - 
From: sally b 
To: Sally-Anne Brown 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:12 AM
Subject: Midwife criticism 'misused statistics' (http://theaustralian.com.au 
report)


  
  
sally b ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) suggested you might 
  be interested in this http://theaustralian.com.au 
  report.



  
  

  


  

  
Midwife criticism 
'misused statistics'Adam Cresswell, Health 
editor01 September 2005A KEY critic of midwife-led 
birthing centres who claimed an international study showed they 
increased baby death rates by 85per cent has been attacked as 
"irresponsible" by the British expert who helped write 
it.
Denis Walsh, who is 
on a sabbatical in Australia, yesterday accused NSW obstetrician 
Andrew Pesce of committing "the worst kind of statistical misuse" in 
claiming the Cochrane review had found midwife care - now being 
expanded through new midwife-led birthing centres in NSW - increased 
a baby's chance of dying. 
While the review did find an association, Dr Walsh said it was 
not statistically significant, meaning there was not enough data to 
prove the extra deaths were not due to chance. 
Dr Pesce, who is the secretary of industrial lobby group the 
National Association of Specialist Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, 
made his claims in The Australian on Tuesday and said the benefits 
of such stand-alone centres were overblown. 
Dr Pesce last night stood by his original comments, and rejected 
Dr Walsh's criticism of him as "political". 
The row threatens to increase tensions between opponents and 
advocates of stand-alone midwife-led birthing centres, some of whom 
now privately admit the two sides are effectively "at war". 
So far, two stand-alone midwife-led birthing units have been set 
up in NSW, at Ryde in northwestern Sydney and Belmont, south of 
Newcastle. A home-birth service linked to St George Hospital in 
southern Sydney is also planned. 
Dr Walsh, a senior lecturer in midwifery research at the 
University of Central Lancashire in northern England, was one of 
four experts who updated the Cochrane Collaboration review last 
year. Cochrane papers draw together data from the best-quality 
trials and are accepted internationally as the most reliable source 
of medical evidence. 
He is about to return to Britain after a 10-month sabbatical in 
Australia. He told The Australian yesterday that the 85 per cent 
figure did not appear in the review and that Dr Pesce had made a 
"fundamental error" by using figures that were not statistically 
significant. 
"One wonders if Pesce was operating out of a different agenda 
when he goes on to confuse such an important issue," Dr Walsh said. 
"I suspect that he probably was, when he goes on to irresponsibly 
use statistics to scare prospective birth centre users. 
"This is the worst kind of statistical misuse." 
Dr Pesce said the findings were "right on the border" of 
significance and claimed the figures showed there was only a 
one-in-20 chance that the higher death rate was not a true finding. 
"It just shows how political the issue is - I think those 
comments are fairly biased themselves," he said. 
"The review didn't prove that hospital care was associated with 
higher rates of caesareans either, but we all know it is. 
"The study showed there was certainly a tendency to an increased 
risk ... and you can't assume safety. The onus is on people who 
advocate birthing centres to show that it's safe."

  Click here to 
signup for daily 
  headlines



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29/08/2005
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[brendamanning]

Sue,
I wish we could teach women that they can say NO 
to C/S.
No consent, no surgery.
What can we do to enable them to just have faith? 
I know it's the old education, education, education but it's just so wrong 
!
Very distressing, makes me want to cry!
We used tohave beautiful standing breech births 
10 years ago in our little hospital,not one with a problem,but no longer 
allowed as we practice "safe" obstetrics now !
There are only 1 or 2 of us who remember  believe 
it can happen. 
SO SAD!

BM

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Susan 
  Cudlipp 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:38 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: 
  
  Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname 
  :-))
  Yes, happened today - how sad.
  Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with 
  RPOC post emergency C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had 
  vaginal breech with no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came 
  into labour on 'the wrong day' with no 3!
  
  There have been several incidents of what would 5 
  years ago been considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, being 
  rushed off to theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was at least 
  7cms) justified by that accursed so-called breech trial! Really 
  sad how the skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no longer 
  taught or used.
  
  Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A 
  small story on a 23 week bub who had done very well, however they did state 
  that she had been one of twins, the other having died (or been terminated?? 
  due to complications - sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids making noise at 
  the time)
  BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to 
  have a C/S at 23 weeks because the 'placenta was growing through a previous 
  C/S scar'
  
  I find it very interesting to read the recent 
  VBAC recommendations and guidelines given to women -states 
  clearlythat VBAC is in many cases preferable to repeat C/S - so why are 
  they so keen to do the C/S in the first place
  
  Sue
  "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
  nothing"Edmund Burke
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Melissa Singer 
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 

Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 
PM

Hi all,

I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous 
scenerio which happened at my work today. A woman who was having her 
fourth baby, three previous being vaginal births and one of which was a 
uncomplicated vaginal breech birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech 
at 38 weeks. Upon looking through the notes the only options that were 
documented as being offered to her were C/S or "risky ECV". 


This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, 
with only her last two visits showing a non engaged breech 
presentation. I surely hope they palpated her before performing the 
C/S today.

Whats evenmore ridiculous is that she had 
her previous babies at our hospital under the same obstetricians as 
today. Our obstetricians are very experienced and in the past 
routinely did vaginal breech births, with a couple still doing them. 
This poor lady had simply gone to the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong 
obstetrician for her!

Her other three babies were all born within the 
last five years!

Times are changing fast!



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Date: 30/08/2005

Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[brendamanning]

Lea,

Your classes sound great.
I wonder if anyone does these or similar in Melbourne specifically for men 
??


BM
- Original Message - 
From: Lea Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births


As someone who facilitates couples' preparation for birth as part of a 
comprehensive 12 week course that essentially gives the dads training 
similar to a doula's, I see this article as addressing something that 
happens when dads are unprepared.


The type of birth experience doesn't seem to determine how the dad will 
react to it.


For example, I have a friend (no preparation that I know of) who had a 
straightforward, natural, 5 hour labour with a known midwife and when I 
asked the dad whether he enjoyed being at the birth he said, It was like 
being the first person at a bus crash. And then I have dads who have 
prepared with me and their partner ends up having a caesarean but they 
know they worked together as a team and he has seen her labour amazingly 
and thinks she is so courageous and feels good about the experience 
because they did everything they could but the baby's positioning made the 
surgery a life-saving thing.


When dad's are at their children's birth and they have enough knowledge to 
truly advocate for their family as well as to help in very practical ways 
if needed (massage, counter-pressure, encouragement etc) there is a 
bonding opportunity that is very powerful. When the birth is safe and 
gentle and joyous and the dad can say in years to come, I was the first 
one to touch you, or I helped when you were born this is an amazing 
thing for a family.


When dads have been prepared by watching beautiful birth videos that show 
how birth *can* be and also prepare them for what their partner may look 
like in the different stages of labour, when they know what the emotional 
signposts of labour are and what the physical signs are and what their 
partner needs at each of these, when they know to ask questions like Is 
this procedure really necessary for our unique situation or is it just 
routine and Are mum and baby healthy? What are you afraid might happen? 
What choices do we have? What might happen if we just wait?, when they 
have an understanding of possible interventions so that they can truly 
make an informed choice as part of the team, when they have practised with 
their partner so that she is able to relax to his voice and touch, when he 
knows to remind his partner to take one contraction at a time, when he 
knows how to help his partner re-focus if neededwhen he's this 
prepared and acting as an advocate his partner is not likely to get an 
episiotomy anyway, and if there are interventions he knows that they have 
been decided on for good reason. He has seen and inspired his partner to 
prepare for this birth during pregnancy, by staying healthy with excellent 
nutrition and exercise and learning about the birth process and he has 
seen her approach the birth with confidence and he has seen her labour 
wonderfully and he has taken part in all of this too. PTSD??? Not part of 
the equation. Less sexual attraction??? He is more attracted to this 
birthing goddess. And he has learned to make decisions for his family. And 
he has learned to be discerning about their medical care. And he has the 
support of other men who have shared this journey of preparation and 
realisation for the last 3 months (in the birth class).


There will always be men who don't want to bother with preparation for 
birth - just as there will always be women who also don't want to think 
about the birth until they are actually in labour. But maybe if they knew 
the potential this experience presents for their family, for their 
relationship with their partner, for their own self-growth and 
self-esteem...
often the men get dragged along to the classes and by the end of the time 
they are the most vocal supporters and tell everyone they know how 
wonderful it is to prepare.


I know I'm an idealist but the article (which ran in the NY Times as well) 
doesn't do anything to inform men that there is an option to educate 
themselves and make the most of the empowering experience birth can be for 
women and their partners. I'm just trying to make a difference...one 
family at a time...one baby at a time...



Lea Mason, AAHCC
Certified Bradley® Natural Childbirth Educator  Labour Support 
Professional

http://www.birthsteps.com.au

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Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Tanya Fleming]

I totally agreemy husband has been present for my two home water births 
too.  In facthe said it felt so great as he felt like we did it all on 
our own with the midwife reassuringly in the corner of the room...which we 
did.


Tanya

- Original Message - 
From: Megan  Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births



Its interesting how the conversation focuses on the womans vagina.
What about the rest of her body?
My husband loved the feeling of my muscles working in my body, he says 
they

have been different for each birth.
The last 3 were water births, so no vagina watching by any one.
Speaking on his behalf, I know that he was and is so awe inspired by
watching me have our babies, it only added to his desire and love.
So I guess the total experience of how women birth is what we are looking
at. No surprises there!
The book, I think titled, Father Time, which is a collection of interviews
of Australain men, discusses this and the men who experienced homebirths
very clearly did not experience the trauma.

I'm not sure about this sexual mystery thing though. As a woman I take
great pride in having a uterus, vagina and breasts that have created and
given life 4 times, its not all about toys for boys.
(Although having 4 sons kind of retracts that statement)

My thoughts anyway
Megan



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrea 
Robertson

Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:26 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

This is an interesting report in today's Sydney Morning Herald. I remember
Michel Odent talking about research done in the US that explored the 
effect
on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had been exposed to the 
birth
process. Michel was advocating that women might want to retain some of 
their
sexual mystery by excluding men from the birth room. I have been at 
births

where I wondered how the father was taking the sight of a practitioner
cutting an episiotomy.

What does everyone think about this?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html

Regards,

Andrea

-
Andrea Robertson
Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.birthinternational.com


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Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.




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Re: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Janet Fraser]

I wonder if 
anyone does these or similar in Melbourne specifically for men 


On the Joyous Birth forums 
there is a private section specifically for fathers who have been present at 
births which were traumatic. We also support them in planning, with their 
partners,for subsequent births in a more empowered and informed way. We 
have dads at Joyous Birth meetings in Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney where they 
have access to all our books, videos and the like. Many men who attend home 
births, especially after experiencing how unnecessary they often are in the 
hospital hierarchy, become great advocates of woman centred birth.

When I ran that article past 
the dad who moderatesthat forum,he was gobsmacked that anyone could 
find the normal, natural processes of birth anything other than wondrous. He sat 
like a deaf mute, through fear,watching his wife scream through repeated 
unwanted VEs, with the staff demanding that he help hold her still. He was sent 
home at one point as her induced labour ramped up because the hospital was 
having building done and she was forced to labour in one large room with other 
unsupported labouring women. He saw her repeatedly jabbed in the leg with 
pethidine without her knowledge or consent - it was done in the middle of a cx 
and she would ask what had been given to her when she came out of the pain. 
Eventually all this led to caesarean and the staff refusing both him and his 
wife the chance to hold their baby for many many hours. She is still recovering 
from PTSD 3 years later and after a great deal of work, they have reclaimed 
their marriage and are planning a home birth. He can't wait to actually be 
involved and be able to support his wife. And she can't wait to hold her own 
baby as soon as it's born.

I think the pathologising of 
even normal, physiological birth has led us to this sad situation. 

We have at least one couple 
who have divorced partly over the husband supporting the hospital to pressure 
the wife into an unnecessary (and second!)"elective" caesarean. The 
physical injury she sustained from that operation was terrible, not to mention 
the PTSD, and she says in retrospect she didn't realise how much his attitude 
would impact negatively on their marriage, let alone her birth experience. So 
now she's single and dreaming of a HBA2C for her future.
J

[ozmidwifery] Article about epidurals increasing posterior presentation

[Lisa]

Does anyone remember an article about Epidurals increasing
the percentge of posterior presentations?

I wanted to use the reference for Childbirth classes and
wondered if anyone remembered whether it was a journal article or not.

Thanks Lisa

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[Melissa Singer]

Hi Sue,

Couldn't but wonder what would of happened if she 
went to Dr W clinic day?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Susan 
  Cudlipp 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:38 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: 
  
  Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname 
  :-))
  Yes, happened today - how sad.
  Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with 
  RPOC post emergency C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had 
  vaginal breech with no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came 
  into labour on 'the wrong day' with no 3!
  
  There have been several incidents of what would 5 
  years ago been considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, being 
  rushed off to theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was at least 
  7cms) justified by that accursed so-called breech trial! Really 
  sad how the skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no longer 
  taught or used.
  
  Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A 
  small story on a 23 week bub who had done very well, however they did state 
  that she had been one of twins, the other having died (or been terminated?? 
  due to complications - sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids making noise at 
  the time)
  BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to 
  have a C/S at 23 weeks because the 'placenta was growing through a previous 
  C/S scar'
  
  I find it very interesting to read the recent 
  VBAC recommendations and guidelines given to women -states 
  clearlythat VBAC is in many cases preferable to repeat C/S - so why are 
  they so keen to do the C/S in the first place
  
  Sue
  "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
  nothing"Edmund Burke
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Melissa Singer 
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 

Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 
PM

Hi all,

I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous 
scenerio which happened at my work today. A woman who was having her 
fourth baby, three previous being vaginal births and one of which was a 
uncomplicated vaginal breech birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech 
at 38 weeks. Upon looking through the notes the only options that were 
documented as being offered to her were C/S or "risky ECV". 


This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, 
with only her last two visits showing a non engaged breech 
presentation. I surely hope they palpated her before performing the 
C/S today.

Whats evenmore ridiculous is that she had 
her previous babies at our hospital under the same obstetricians as 
today. Our obstetricians are very experienced and in the past 
routinely did vaginal breech births, with a couple still doing them. 
This poor lady had simply gone to the wrong clinic day and seen the wrong 
obstetrician for her!

Her other three babies were all born within the 
last five years!

Times are changing fast!



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Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release 
Date: 30/08/2005

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[wump fish]

Sue, you are so lucky to have cared for women having a physiological breech. 
I have only seen one vaginal breech - and it was far from physiological 
(epidural, stirrups, fiddling about etc).


Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we teach women about saying 'no'. When 
they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician (often a male authority figure) 
telling them their baby is in danger - they will chose to protect their 
child because as a mother that is their instinct.


Women need to be making decisions such as c-section within a partnership 
relationship with a known midwife. They should be given honest, 
evidence-based info by someone who truely believes in the body's ability to 
birth (ie. not a dr) and will support their decision whatever it is 
(including c-section). Women would then be able to make choices which are 
right for them as individuals - not right for the system.


As for breech birth. The Term-Breech Trial is often used by the obs as 
evidence that breech birth is unsafe for the baby. However, this is not what 
it shows. It can only tell us what happens in large hospitals with obs 
management of breech birth. It does not compare physiological birth with 
c-secion. Based on the findings - if I was planning a breech birth I would 
have two options. A planned c-section in a good hospital. Or, a homebirth 
with an experienced independent mw.


Rachel



From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:33:26 +1000

Sue,
I wish we could teach women that they can say NO to  C/S.
No consent, no surgery.
What can we do to enable them to just  have faith? I know it's the old 
education, education, education but it's just so wrong !

Very distressing, makes me want to cry!
We used to have beautiful standing breech births 10 years ago in our little 
hospital,not one with a problem, but no longer allowed as we practice 
safe obstetrics now !

There are only 1 or 2 of us who remember  believe it can happen.
SO SAD!

BM
  - Original Message -
  From: Susan Cudlipp
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:38 PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:


  Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname :-))
  Yes, happened today - how sad.
  Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with RPOC post emergency 
C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had vaginal breech with 
no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came into labour on 
'the wrong day' with no 3!


  There have been several incidents of what would 5 years ago been 
considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, being rushed off to 
theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was at least 7cms)  
justified by that accursed so-called breech trial!  Really sad how the 
skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no longer taught or 
used.


  Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A small story on a 23 week 
bub who had done very well, however they did state that she had been one of 
twins, the other having died (or been terminated?? due to complications - 
sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids making noise at the time)
  BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to have a C/S at 23 weeks 
because the 'placenta was growing through a previous C/S scar'


  I find it very interesting to read the recent VBAC recommendations and 
guidelines given to women - states clearly that VBAC is in many cases 
preferable to repeat C/S - so why are they so keen to do the C/S in the 
first place


  Sue
  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing

  Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From: Melissa Singer
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 PM


Hi all,

I thought I'd share with you a ridiculous scenerio which happened at 
my work today.  A woman who was having her fourth baby, three previous 
being vaginal births and one of which was a uncomplicated vaginal breech 
birth was booked for her first ELUSC for breech at 38 weeks.  Upon looking 
through the notes the only options that were documented as being offered to 
her were C/S or risky ECV.


This baby was previously cephalic until 33/40, with only her last two 
visits showing a non engaged breech presentation.  I surely hope they 
palpated her before performing the C/S today.


Whats even more ridiculous is that she had her previous babies at our 
hospital under the same obstetricians as today.  Our obstetricians are very 
experienced and in the past routinely did vaginal breech births, with a 
couple still doing them.  This poor lady had simply gone to the wrong 
clinic day and seen the wrong obstetrician for her!


Her other three babies were all born within the last five years!

Times are changing fast!

RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Tania Smallwood]

Hear hear both of you. 

In our practice, we have taken on several couples where, after meeting the
partner, it becomes obvious that part of the drive to birth at home, is
because of that feeling of 'being a spare tyre' at the last birth.  Even
though some of these blokes aren't completely convinced about the safety
aspect of homebirth, they feel that the system did them over, and relegated
them to a position of such irrelevance, that it has to be better staying
away from that, and having someone they know helping their partner birth.
The other thing that has come out of these meetings is that they recognize
immediately that we have no ownership issues about the birth.  We don't wish
to manage or direct it, and we want them to live and own and cherish every
moment of the experience.  

Why is this such a hard message to get across to the general public?  How do
we market the package we present as being safe and attractive and inclusive
of the partners, and how do we make that an important part of the decision
making process that all couples go through when they choose a care provider?
Just musing over the possibilities...

Tania
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miriam Hannay
Sent: Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:49 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

I'm with you, Megan!

To give birth to a beloved child is the ultimate
expression of the emotional and sexual love my husband
and I share.

He described me during labour and birth as being
'awesome, powerful, sexy, strong, more beautiful than
ever before'. He even commented that the involuntary
noises I made during birth were similar to the noises
I make during orgasm!

Obviously, such an experience relies on the nature of
the birth itself, We had three babes at home and one
in hospital, all beautiful physiological births with
no intervention. 

With regard retaining your 'sexual mystery', I'm not
quite sure what there is about sex and sexuality
that's 'mysterious'. If a couple's sexual relationship
is open, honest, loving and passionate, does there
need to be any 'mystery'? To me this smacks a little
of patriarchal notions of women's role as sexual
object... Gee, I hope my husband doesn't find anything
about me mysterious after fourteen years, otherwise
how would he know what I need and desire?!

What would be fantastic for men would be for all
practitioners to actively facilitate a role for them
during the birth process that makes them feel involved
and reflects the extraordinary beauty of the
experience. If only... regards, Miriam.

--- Megan  Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Its interesting how the conversation focuses on the
 womans vagina.
 What about the rest of her body?
 My husband loved the feeling of my muscles working
 in my body, he says they
 have been different for each birth. 
 The last 3 were water births, so no vagina watching
 by any one. 
 Speaking on his behalf, I know that he was and is so
 awe inspired by
 watching me have our babies, it only added to his
 desire and love. 
 So I guess the total experience of how women birth
 is what we are looking
 at. No surprises there!
 The book, I think titled, Father Time, which is a
 collection of interviews
 of Australain men, discusses this and the men who
 experienced homebirths
 very clearly did not experience the trauma. 
 
 I'm not sure about this sexual mystery thing
 though. As a woman I take
 great pride in having a uterus, vagina and breasts
 that have created and
 given life 4 times, its not all about toys for
 boys.
 (Although having 4 sons kind of retracts that
 statement)
 
 My thoughts anyway
 Megan
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Andrea Robertson
 Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:26 AM
 To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
 Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births
 
 This is an interesting report in today's Sydney
 Morning Herald. I remember
 Michel Odent talking about research done in the US
 that explored the effect
 on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had
 been exposed to the birth
 process. Michel was advocating that women might want
 to retain some of their
 sexual mystery by excluding men from the birth
 room. I have been at births
 where I wondered how the father was taking the sight
 of a practitioner
 cutting an episiotomy.
 
 What does everyone think about this?
 

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html
 
 Regards,
 
 Andrea
 
 -
 Andrea Robertson
 Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in
 Childbirth Education
 
 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 web: www.birthinternational.com
 
 
 --
 This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
 Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe
 or unsubscribe.
 
 --
 This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
 Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe
 or unsubscribe.
 


Send instant messages to your online 

[ozmidwifery] SA Homebirth Network

[Tania Smallwood]

Hello everyone, 



Just wanted to let the list know that the Homebirth Network
of SA is having a coffee morning tomorrow, 2nd September, from 10-12
at the Eastwood Community Center, 95 Glen Osmond Rd, Eastwood. We are also
having a birth story night from 7.30pm at the same venue, on the 14th
September. All welcome, and if you want any further details, please email me
off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Cheers



Tania

 

Re: [ozmidwifery] SA Homebirth Network

[Janet Fraser]

Hi Tania : )
Have you put those details on 
Joyous Birth? I'd be most grateful! I'll put them on Natural Parenting for you 
too, if you wish!
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Tania 
  Smallwood 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:55 
  AM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] SA Homebirth 
  Network
  
  
  Hello everyone, 
  
  
  Just wanted to let the list know 
  that the Homebirth Network of SA is having a coffee morning tomorrow, 
  2nd September, from 10-12 at the Eastwood Community Center, 95 Glen 
  Osmond Rd, Eastwood. We are also having a birth story night from 7.30pm 
  at the same venue, on the 14th September. All welcome, and if 
  you want any further details, please email me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  Cheers
  
  Tania
   
  

RE: [ozmidwifery] 3rd degree tears

[Lindsay Kennedy]

Hi Sue

It was about 11 weeks. I was booked
into the hospital clinic, had the USS and antenatal appointment and decided I couldnt
stand the cattle market philosophy and changed to a GP who did deliveries (this
was a few years ago in NZ, prior to independent midwives). On my first
visit with my new GP he picked up that it was twins!



Speaking of twins

I had my first ever twin delivery the
other evening. Lovely woman having baby 3 and 4. First twin was
cephalic presentation, second twin was breech. 37/40. She was
induced as part of that twin timing trial and had an epidural as that is the
policy. She thought the epidural was a bit ridiculous really. Had
not had pain relief for other births and felt a bit silly waiting for the
labour to progress. It all went very smoothly, it was just me and this
couple and we were laughing in between pushes and out came baby number
one. Then of course everyone else arrived and baby two was assisted by
the Dr. The woman refused an episiotomy despite the Dr thinking it was a
good idea. Baby came out bottom and foot first. 

I know it was pretty managed with Synto
infusion and epidural and CTG monitoring, but the woman was very very
thrilled with how it had gone. She had expected it to be far more
traumatic and certainly the birth of twin one was as quiet and beautiful as you
could want. Within half an hour of twin two delivering (approx 40mins
after twin 1) they were both on the breast. 

I am a big fan of home birth and find it
challenging sometimes to create a good atmosphere in the hospital. This
couple were so grateful that we had managed to create that atmosphere for
them. 

Lindsay











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sue Cookson
Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005
5:46 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] 3rd
degree tears





Hi Lindsay,
At what gestation did the u/sound miss your twins pregnancy?
Anyone else have a similar story?

Sue



I had ultrasounds on the day of birth of my last two babies,
I was overdue both times and had to see Obstetrician. These were my 4th
and 5th children. Number 4 he said would be large. At
least 9lbs. He was 7lb 3oz. Number 5, I think he was remembering
his previous error and said this was not a big baby. He was 9lb
1oz. I have little faith in USS. Keeping in mind that my twins were
also missed on USS and picked up on Abdo palp.

Lindsay

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[brendamanning]

Rachel,

Actually that was me (Brenda)not Sue,  who wrote about the physiological 
breeches, and I do realise now that experience is rare.
When you speak about choice  what you'd do if you had a breech baby 
yourself you are really limited because there are not many of us in PP who 
have experience with breeches.
I would definitely not alter  plans to birth at home if my baby was breech 
(but I have had 4 children) finding a MW to attend would be a difficult task 
though!
There is no way on earth I'd consent to surgery to remove my healthy baby 
just because he was upside down !
The next best option here would be to go to our local private hospital with 
my own MW  the OB who supports us (he was the OB who had enough belief in 
women 10 years ago to be present for their breech births but now is 'not 
allowed' to do them because of the breech trial).

I would just insist, but then I can be very determined !!

BM
- Original Message - 
From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:


Sue, you are so lucky to have cared for women having a physiological 
breech. I have only seen one vaginal breech - and it was far from 
physiological (epidural, stirrups, fiddling about etc).


Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we teach women about saying 'no'. 
When they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician (often a male authority 
figure) telling them their baby is in danger - they will chose to protect 
their child because as a mother that is their instinct.


Women need to be making decisions such as c-section within a partnership 
relationship with a known midwife. They should be given honest, 
evidence-based info by someone who truely believes in the body's ability 
to birth (ie. not a dr) and will support their decision whatever it is 
(including c-section). Women would then be able to make choices which are 
right for them as individuals - not right for the system.


As for breech birth. The Term-Breech Trial is often used by the obs as 
evidence that breech birth is unsafe for the baby. However, this is not 
what it shows. It can only tell us what happens in large hospitals with 
obs management of breech birth. It does not compare physiological birth 
with c-secion. Based on the findings - if I was planning a breech birth I 
would have two options. A planned c-section in a good hospital. Or, a 
homebirth with an experienced independent mw.


Rachel



From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:33:26 +1000

Sue,
I wish we could teach women that they can say NO to  C/S.
No consent, no surgery.
What can we do to enable them to just  have faith? I know it's the old 
education, education, education but it's just so wrong !

Very distressing, makes me want to cry!
We used to have beautiful standing breech births 10 years ago in our 
little hospital,not one with a problem, but no longer allowed as we 
practice safe obstetrics now !

There are only 1 or 2 of us who remember  believe it can happen.
SO SAD!

BM
  - Original Message -
  From: Susan Cudlipp
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:38 PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:


  Hi Melissa (only just worked out the surname :-))
  Yes, happened today - how sad.
  Also today we saw a multi 10 wks post partum with RPOC post emergency 
C/S for breech at 36 weeks. This particular lady had vaginal breech with 
no.1, I delivered no 2 (SVD), and then, as you say - came into labour on 
'the wrong day' with no 3!


  There have been several incidents of what would 5 years ago been 
considered to be 'good' breech presentations in multis, being rushed off 
to theatre in established labour, ( I remember one who was at least 7cms) 
justified by that accursed so-called breech trial!  Really sad how the 
skills to deliver well positioned breech births are no longer taught or 
used.


  Did anyone else catch the 7 news last night? A small story on a 23 week 
bub who had done very well, however they did state that she had been one 
of twins, the other having died (or been terminated?? due to 
complications - sorry, a bit vague on that bit, kids making noise at the 
time)
  BUT the bit I did catch was that she had had to have a C/S at 23 weeks 
because the 'placenta was growing through a previous C/S scar'


  I find it very interesting to read the recent VBAC recommendations and 
guidelines given to women - states clearly that VBAC is in many cases 
preferable to repeat C/S - so why are they so keen to do the C/S in the 
first place


  Sue
  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing

  Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From: Melissa Singer
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:22 PM


Hi all,

I thought