Re: [P2P-F] new interview, thanks for diffusing in your networks

[Anna Harris]

Hi Michel, 

In recent months I’m hearing a very different message coming from US. This 
video is typical and turns upside down many of the values I’ve grown up with. 
Do you have a response?

https://youtu.be/R0EfaSv27gI

Warm regards, Anna

> On 9 Mar 2021, at 11:44, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
> Petar Jandric has done an in-depth conversation with me about the current 
> work at the P2P Foundation, which is focused mostly on the me of: how can we 
> produce for human need within planetary boundaries, in the context of the 
> rapid construction of post-westphalian cyber-physical infrastructure and 
> autonomous trans-local ecosystems.
> 
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s42438-021-00218-8
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> Commoning for Planetary Survival and Regeneration
> PJ: You recently published a report ‘P2P Accounting for Planetary Survival: 
> Towards a P2P Infrastructure for a Socially-Just Circular Society’ (Bauwens 
> and Pazaitis 2020). What is P2P accounting and how does it differ from 
> traditional accounting?
> 
> MB: In the 1930s, there was this big debate between socialists and liberals 
> called the ‘Socialist Calculation Debate’. On the one side, were Friedrich 
> Hayek, Joseph Schumpeter, Ludwig von Mises, and others, who argued that 
> centralised planning could not work. On the opposite side, were Karl Polanyi, 
> and others, who claimed that socialist planning could work (and in ways 
> superior to capitalism). For almost one century it seemed that the leftists 
> had lost the socialist calculation debate. These days, however, things are 
> changing.
> 
> There are three main levels of resource allocation. (1) We have the state, 
> which represents planning – either full planning as in Soviet times, or 
> regulatory planning, as in the capitalist system. (2) We have market pricing, 
> which regulates the allocation of capital. (3) Finally, we have the emergence 
> of mutual coordination or ‘stigmergy’, which brings open source commoning 
> into the picture.
> 
> Our proposal, ‘P2P Accounting for Planetary Survival: Towards a P2P 
> Infrastructure for a Socially-Just Circular Society’ (Bauwens and Pazaitis 
> 2020), consists of an integrated vision that combines the three forms, with 
> mutual coordination at the first level. We now have distributed 
> ledgersFootnote10 so that we can move from sharing code and knowledge to 
> sharing transaction data, shared accounting, shared logistics, and so on. We 
> are moving from the Internet of Communications to the Internet of 
> Transactions which enables the development of collaborative open ecosystems 
> consisting of networks of producers. I think this is a very important shift.
> 
> PJ: And what about thermodynamic accounting?
> 
> MB: Thermodynamic accounting is the ability to see flows of matter and energy 
> and have them integrated into your accounting system. This implies that we 
> can create our own data commons, data trusts, data co-ops, and so on.
> 
> -- 
> P2P Foundation: http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net  - 
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> 
> Updates: ; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> Curation of news on p2p/commons developments: 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/p2p.open/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: FoP RoP - the landscape of the heart-mind in activist practice

[Anna Harris]

Unfortunately unreadable on a mini IPad. 

> On 7 Jan 2019, at 08:37, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: mike hales 
> Date: Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 6:21 PM
> Subject: FoP RoP - the landscape of the heart-mind in activist practice
> To: mh home 
> 
> 
> Dear all, happy new year / Here’s a link to a blog post which introduces a 
> recently added section of my FoP RoP website, addressing the landscape of the 
> heart-mind (‘emotional commons’) in organic intellectual, 
> libertarian-socialist, cultural-materialist, P2P-commons, activist practice . 
> .
> 
> 05 | Walker takes up his place in the scheme of things 
>   
> 
> > This section includes a piece from 2018 on sectarianism and activism in 
> > ’the Lower Left’ 
> >   
> 
> The piece also serves to outline the framework of the whole FoP RoP project 
> (FoP RoP = Forces of production, relations of production).
> 
> > The (under-developed) heart of the project is a ‘pattern language’ for 
> > P2P-commoning. The vocabulary of patterns is yet to be installed (there’s 
> > an outline list of working titles, derived from Bollier & Helfrich). But 
> > there’s quite a bit of work on the architecture that’s appropriate to this 
> > kind of experiential, maker-activist framing. This includes thoughts on 
> > diverse approachs to platforming in a pluriverse of political-cultural 
> > formations
> >    
> > And the interweaving - in a commons-of-commons - of commons of material 
> > provision and dependency (including money and software code), commons of 
> > labour-power (including stories and sciences) and emotional commons.
> > 
> > A major strand is work on making 'a living economy', being carried out 
> > within/by a book collective gathered during 2018, in honour of economist 
> > Robin Murray. Not a lot in the FoP RoP website at present, but more to come 
> > over coming months, as work on the book gets into gear. For example, stuff 
> > around literacy of ‘the heart-mind’ will be developed as a contribution in 
> > a stream of work on ‘formacion’ for venturing in the living economy. And 
> > there’ll be stuff on solidarity economy/coops/P2P-commons/OpenApps as 
> > activist formations in ’the new economy'.
> > 
> > There’s also a chunk on the 70s-80s radical science movement
> >   
> > 
> > within a section on historical formations of ‘radical professional’ 
> > activism in the baby-boomer generation. History matters? Sometimes, wheels 
> > shouldn’t be reinvented; and sometimes they shouldn’t be re-used!
> 
> All these are linked from the above blog piece. I would be delighted to know 
> what you make of FoP RoP as a project - spun up just 6 months ago. There’s a 
> Forum section in the website, as yet undeveloped. If you’d like to pitch in 
> some comments please let me know, and we can ‘christen’ the forum? Or you 
> could become a contributor to the blog? Alternatively, for some recipients, 
> we can pick this up in Loomio or social.coop mastodon.
> 
> Looking forward to what will hatch in the new year / mike
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org  
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] Leaving Facebook for a indeterminate time

[Anna Harris]

Seconded!

> On 18 Aug 2018, at 08:04, George Pór  
> wrote:
> 
> Michel,
> 
> Your service is too precious to the community. Why don't you just leave the 
> extremists alone and continue with your valuable postings that I frequently 
> share to other groups?
> 
> your friend, george 
> 
> George Pór
> Faculty, Meridian University
> 
> Strategic learning partner to visionary leaders and changemakers 
> in business, government, and civil society
> 
> Founder and Teal Mentor of the Enlivening Edge media hub 
> for amplifying the evolution of organizations and social systems
> 
> Director, CommunityIntelligence Ltd
> 
> If you're an organizational leader and want to discover the future of 
> organizations, in the company of your global peers, come to the NoGuru Forum 
> that will be held in Singapore, 12-14 October. If you have questions, drop me 
> a line at geo...@enliveningedge.org .
> 
> Email:geo...@community-intelligence.com
> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EvolutionaryAgent/
> LinkedIn:  linkedin.com/in/georgepor
> Twitter: @Technoshaman
> Web: http://www.community-intelligence.com/?q=george-por
> Blog: http://blogofcollectiveintelligence.com
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:34 AM, Michel Bauwens  
>> wrote:
>> dear friends, 
>> 
>> I am leaving FB for a as yet indeterminate period of time,
>> 
>> This almost means that my curation duties are hold, since I have no ready 
>> alternative. The reasons for my departure are not technical but have to do 
>> with a unfortunate polarisation on the p2p foundation's fb group, that I 
>> have been unable to steer in a positive momentum,
>> 
>> Michel
>> 
>> -- 
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
>> 
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: 
>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> 
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; 
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> 
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Re: [P2P-F] the common vs the commons

[Anna Harris]

Which book?

> On 23 Jul 2018, at 22:30, Kevin Flanagan  wrote:
> 
> Nice to read and so clearly articulated. Strange I can't find the book 
> online? Has anyone sourced a copy?
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 5:59 AM, Michel Bauwens  
>> wrote:
>> Dear friends,
>> 
>> I started my journey to the commons in large part through the reading of the 
>> school of cognitive capitalism, starting with Empire of Negri/Hardt, then 
>> moving on the vercellone/fumagalli/mazzarato and the first 25 issues of 
>> Multitudes magazine.
>> 
>> I've always was weary thought that speaking of the common, instead of the 
>> commons, made it into a more metaphysical approach, loosing its concreteness,
>> 
>> but with this article here, 
>> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Common_as_a_Mode_of_Production, I'm 
>> rediscovering that this post-autonomist tendency has clarified a lot of the 
>> issues, and so if you want to read how the common can productively lead to 
>> the commons, this is a very good start.
>> 
>> a good and just a bit longer follow-up, is 
>> http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0263276415597770
>> 
>> see also this very cogent attitude to the  basic income: 
>> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Andrea_Fumagalli_on_the_Five_Criteria_To_Distinguish_a_Progressive_Interpretation_of_the_Basic_Income
>> 
>> -- 
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
>> 
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: 
>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> 
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; 
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> making a donation. Thank you for your support.
>> https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation
>> 
>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> 
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] the common vs the commons

[Anna Harris]

https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Common_as_a_Mode_of_Production

What a beautiful article, clear, simple non academic language. Inspiring a 
future to which we are all contributing, where the Common, combining economic 
and social reproduction, becomes the dominant mode, but cohabits with the 
public and the private.


Thank you for listing.

> On 23 Jul 2018, at 04:59, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> I started my journey to the commons in large part through the reading of the 
> school of cognitive capitalism, starting with Empire of Negri/Hardt, then 
> moving on the vercellone/fumagalli/mazzarato and the first 25 issues of 
> Multitudes magazine.
> 
> I've always was weary thought that speaking of the common, instead of the 
> commons, made it into a more metaphysical approach, loosing its concreteness,
> 
> but with this article here, 
> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Common_as_a_Mode_of_Production, I'm 
> rediscovering that this post-autonomist tendency has clarified a lot of the 
> issues, and so if you want to read how the common can productively lead to 
> the commons, this is a very good start.
> 
> a good and just a bit longer follow-up, is 
> http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0263276415597770
> 
> see also this very cogent attitude to the  basic income: 
> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Andrea_Fumagalli_on_the_Five_Criteria_To_Distinguish_a_Progressive_Interpretation_of_the_Basic_Income
> 
> -- 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: 
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> 
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; 
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: From Rajani: On Alienation: : A Non-Eurocentric View

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Rajani, for this interesting essay. So much here I would endorse, 
that we seek the felicity of 'warm kindred relations', and that our separation 
from nature promotes disease.

One aspect of alienation that you don't name, though it is implicit in this 
article, is alienation from ourselves. (Did the 'self' exist for Marx outside 
of its position in the economic and historical structure of society?)

What we are seeing currently is a challenge to conventional gender divisions, 
based on claims to the 'validity of subjective experience'. LGBTQ plus non 
binary offer a whole range of alternatives to those who feel constricted by 
conventional gender assignments. This choice is being given to children as 
young as 10 years old within the UK education system, and the UK Labour Party 
has recently agreed to accept applicants for women's positions from those who 
'self-identify as women'.

Questioning gender divisions also challenges our whole notion of what we think 
of as 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities.  

What Is happening now within EM (to use your terminology) is that there is 
beginning to be a recognition of the validity of a subjective experience, which 
is not tied to social norms. This freedom allows us to see that though there 
may be distinct biological differences, (and even these vary much more than is 
generally supposed) between masculine and feminine, this does not define 
qualitative differences between genders. Women are free to be as 'masculine' as 
they want and vice versa. This is acknowledged within enlightenment 
philosophies, by proposing that everybody has both masculine and feminine 
qualities within them, 'the yin yang paradigm'. Although this makes a nonsense 
of the distinction between masculine and feminine qualities, yet it seems 
difficult for people to abandon that mindset.

 Perhaps it is time for you to re-assess your thoughts on this as quoted from 
Wikipaedia: "that men and women are distinct sub-species embodying a "paradigm 
of masculinity" and a "paradigm of femininity", respectively, correlated to 
violence and nurturance, that are basically instinctual in nature despite their 
cultural variation".

Anna


> On 11 Jul 2018, at 03:27, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: r kanth 
> Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:54 AM
> Subject: Fwd: From Rajani: On Alienation: : A Non-Eurocentric View
> To: Michel Bauwens 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Further Notes on 
> Euro-Modernism*
> 
>On 
> Alienation
> 
>
> 
> Alienation is a major theme in European discourse, both theological and 
> philosophical, in its EM  (EuroModernist) phase.
> 
> Marx , one of the great canonicals in that  august lineage, e.g.,  noted 
> several  aspects of alienation:  of workers -  from their product, from the 
> production process(run by owners/agents) , from each other(via ‘competition’) 
> ,   and from their own species essence (Gattungswesen).
> 
> I wish to identify the last as specially important, if in a marginally 
> different sense,  as far as our ‘species-essence’ goes– perhaps – from Marx.
> 
> I also wish to add another species of alienation,   a  little less relevant, 
> perhaps,  to a  child of the enlightenment,  and  an heir to industrial 
> society,  like Marx: i.e. alienation from nature.
> 
> *
> 
> Gattungswesen.
> 
> I have argued that , contra all the norms of EM,  we as a species are 
> affective beings, led to seek the felicity of warm kindred relations, 
> instinctually: familial,  co-operative,  and communal.
> 
> EM,  by setting up its alternate  template of competition, 
> acquisitivenessness, individualist,  self-seeking behavior  (as in the 
> pseudo-science of “Economics”), offers a paradigm strikingly opposed to this 
> human essence.
> 
> This sets up not   so-called ‘cognitive dissonance’ –  a  buzz-word if ever 
> there was one -  but , even deeper, an existential nightmare for humans 
> compelled to act against their very own  natures.
> 
> This is the  ontic basis of angst and despair, noted by existentialist 
> writers,  for generations.
> 
> This is why   the so-called  ‘happiness index’ is so low in all societies 
> most ‘advanced’ in EM norms, such as the US; and why the UK, uabashedly, 
> recently set up , no less, a ministry for ‘loneliness’.
> 
> *
> 
> Nature.
> 
> We are , contra the shibboleths of Biblical ideology, part of nature, i.e ., 
> we are animals
> 
> Even  the radical Marx, echoing his own  Judeo-Christian  heritage,  spoke of 
> “Man’  proudly as the ‘sovereign of creation”.
> 
> He hadn’t  studied  Darwin (Darwin’s classic work  was published, late:  the 
> same year as  one of Marx’s classic works: 1859).
> 
> At any rate, we are part of nature: and when we are kept away from it,  as we 
> are, more or 

Re: [P2P-F] Participatory Government

[Anna Harris]

It was sent on the list. I received it!  Anna

> On 20 Jun 2018, at 11:09, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> Dear Steve,
> 
> I haven't seen it but do not moderate the list and am not sure if anyone does 
> after the departure of James Burke, I copy the list, and put our tech 
> coordinator javier in cc to see what happens,
> 
> Michel
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Steve Ediger  wrote:
>> Michel,
>> 
>> I sent the forwarded email to the p2p-foundation list last week, but have 
>> not seen it.  Was it rejected by the moderator(s)?
>> 
>> Steve Ediger
>> 773-920-7350 (google voice)
>> 505-426-7088 (mobile)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Steve Ediger 
>> Date: Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:33 AM
>> Subject: Participatory Government
>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
>> 
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I've been appointed to serve on my county's Strategic Planning Committee for 
>> Public Infrastructure via my connection to the Civic Tech.  I would like 
>> some feedback on points that I'm (and my civic tech community) making.
>> 
>> We started off by asking the county to implement a public, fiber optic, 
>> Internet backbone with a gateway to the Internet.
>> 
>> That lead to discussions about the public infrastructure, (transportation, 
>> land/buildings, health services, economic development, information 
>> technology, etc.)  In these conversations, I stressed that we need to 
>> redefine government.  Great opening, huh?  
>> 
>> I would appreciate your experience and feedback on how the following points 
>> will play, and how to make them play better:
>> Yes, we need full transparency. Reporting out must be full and curated for 
>> any specific audience from casual browser to full participant.
>> Plus, we need feedback mechanisms that actually work.  This means collecting 
>> feedback at every stage from idea through to evaluation and having that 
>> feedback inform decisions at every stage and level.
>> In addition, we need multi-lateral conversations government/citizens (I use 
>> that word advisedly)/business.  This means that in addition to reporting, 
>> informing decisions based on feedback, the governement needs to facilitate 
>> communications about government issues that take place between citizens and 
>> businesses.
>> The whole process looks more like a conversation about ideas and their 
>> implementation than a set of regulations and services.
>> I've also pushed for and received general agreement that we need to 
>> accommodate people who don't have access to technology, by creating clear 
>> multi-lateral communications at government buildings and throughout all 
>> agencies.
>> So what are your thoughts?  Is this a good tactic for bringing this to the 
>> county's attention in a manner that might result in some forward movement?
>> 
>> Steve Ediger
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org  
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: FROM RAJANI: INTERVIEW WITH DR. AMIT GOSWAMI, QUANTUM PHYSICIST

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Rajani, and Michel for this introduction to Dr Amit Goswami. Very 
interesting.

Anna

> On 17 Mar 2018, at 09:33, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: r kanth 
> Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 2:13 AM
> Subject: Fwd: FROM RAJANI: INTERVIEW WITH DR. AMIT GOSWAMI, QUANTUM PHYSICIST
> To: Michel Bauwens 
> 
> 
> This is the 2nd in a proposed Series of Interviews exploring New Ideas that 
> may, perhaps,  serve as salves for our troubled times.
> The queries are mine, the responses Amit's.
> Rajani
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  IDEAS FOR OUR TIMES  (II)
>  
>   INTERVIEW:  Dr . Amit Goswami
>
>   THEMES:  Quantum Physics,  Consciousness,  and the 
> Human
> Condition
>  
>   [Queried  by  Professor 
> Rajani  Kanth]
>  
> 1. Explain what you mean by  your Key  Phrase: "Consciousness is the Ground 
> of Being".
>  
> Quantum physics indicates that material being arises from possibilities, 
> possibilities of consciousness. 
> Consciousness is the ground of all being is a generalization. 
> All manifest being—sensing, thinking, feeling, intuition—arises from 
> consciousness.
>  
> 2. How does that differ from any Other extant  view of Consciousness , or 
> Being?
>  
> The idea of a “ground” different from  space and time is experimentally 
> verified in quantum physics defined by instantaneous signal-less 
> communication or nonlocality (space and time is local; communication requires 
> signals taking time). 
> Nonlocality translates as unity—oneness of everything for this domain of 
> potentiality or consciousness. 
> Except for the wisdom traditions, nobody talks about consciousness this way.
>  
> 3. How did you chance upon that  novel idea?
>  
> While I was having a heated argument with a mystic friend. 
> In retrospect, the idea was the culmination of a creative process that 
> extended over about ten years.
>  
> 4. You reject Scientific Materialism: why? 
>  
> Nonlocality, an experimental fact, simply rules it out.
> We have “transferred potential experiments (replicated in many laboratories 
> all over the world) which show that electrical potential can be transferred 
> from one brain to another provided the two subjects are able to hold the 
> meditative intention that they will have direct communication.  
> Even neuroscience experiments are now supporting the new view of 
> consciousness and how it manifests in the brain as a self.
> Besides, there are so many experiential reasons.
>  
> 5.  Does Q. Physics really displace  classical  (Newtonian) physics?.  Where, 
> and why? 
>  
> Yes, quantum physics really does replace Newtonian physics for all matter, 
> micro and macro. 
> However, for the macroworld, Newtonian predictions approximately hold; in 
> this way materialists can argue if quantum physics has enough effect in a 
> macro-object like a brain for consciousness to be relevant. 
> I have shown that living matter is quantum because it is nonlocally 
> correlated with what is called subtle bodies—potentialities that give rise to 
> our subtle experiences of feeling and thinking.
>  
> 6.  Is it true the old Physics was deterministic whereas the new Physics is 
> probabilistic? Does that matter? Why?
>  
> Yes, it is true. 
> Quantum objects are waves of possibility. 
> It matters when we realize that these waves reside not in space and time 
> defined by locality but in another domain outside space and time defined by 
> nonlocality and oneness. 
> This oneness is consciousness.
>  
> 7.The social sciences have always suffered from 'physics envy': are they 
> justified?
>  
> I don’t know! 
> I guess the physics envy comes from the fact that physics is mathematical; 
> but in all their efforts nobody has been successful in developing a 
> mathematic macroeconomics that work. 
> In the new paradigm, social science no longer is constrained to be 
> deterministic.  Freedom is back! 
> They can relax. 
> Mathematics does not apply to social sciences.
>  
> 8. There is a lot of 'quirkiness' to Q. Physics, in the popular mind: pl. 
> explain.
>  
> There is no quirkiness to quantum physics. 
> All the quirkiness is in the mind of scientific materialists.  
> If you have the wrong lens, reality looks muddles up, paradoxical.
>  
> 9. You have produced works that extend the Quantum notion to Economics, 
> Biology, et. al.  Is that valid?
>  
> Those are natural extension to make these sciences apply to conscious beings 
> like humans who have freedom, who have nonmaterial experiences, even 
> experiences of a self separate from the world. 
> Right now,  what we call biology or economics only apply to machines.
> We live in a topsy-turvy world in 

Re: [P2P-F] Postcapitalism, Basic Income and the End of Work: A Critique and Alternative

[Anna Harris]

I took a brief look at this paper and found it seriously disappointing. I hope 
someone with more heart to read through a caricature of UBI as presented here, 
will make a more thorough criticism.  
UBI is presented as a way to 'escape work', and as anti productivity, 'post 
work dreamers', following a remark by Marx that it was a misfortune to be a 
productive worker.  I cannot claim to have read all the literature, but this 
interpretation of the motivation for UBI does not ring true to me. The 
possibility for people to be free to choose how they spend their time, in what 
way they want to contribute to social wellbeing, as a result of UBI, does not 
seem to enter this analysis.

Finally what I understood  positively was that it should be administered by us 
rather than the state, good point, and can connect with social projects needed 
to make the transition to a society that works for all. Both of these points 
could have been made without attempting to debunk UBI, and it's having many 
supporters of different colours (as if that is a criticism)
Anna

On 21 Nov 2017, at 19:07, Theodoros Karyotis  wrote:

> A critique of the plan for a Basic Income and its conception of the state, 
> money, wage, and labour:
>
> http://www.bath.ac.uk/cds/publications/bdp55.pdf
>
>
>
> autonomias.net
> twitter.com/TebeoTeo
> ---
> ...buscar y saber reconocer quién y qué, en medio del infierno, no es 
> infierno, y hacer que dure, y dejarle espacio..
> .


>
> ___
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>
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> Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by 
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Re: [P2P-F] commons and households

[Anna Harris]

Yes, it is this lack of reciprocity which is the key to undermining the 
relationships dictated by the market economy. That is why the words being 
discussed in the current ongoing conversation, which are all attempting to 
describe a relationship, eg. cooperation, democracy, community, fall short, not 
because they have been co-opted by 'the other side', but because they attempt 
to put together what has already been taken apart.

When as Kevin describes with the use of technology, the household expands to 
include, rather than putting together separate entities, it will hopefully be 
the non reciprocal values of family, love and care, which will predominate, and 
will hold the group together. Whether one's own experience of family was a 
happy one or not, the family is and always has been the basic reproductive 
unit. With the 'commons', we are acknowledging the beauty and wholesomeness of 
sharing. The seed of that lies within the family. That is where we first learn 
of love and affection, which are essential to healthy sharing relationships. 

To impose a commons structure without understanding the quality of these 
relationships, is unlikely to address the fundamental reality of alienation, 
and objectification of people and nature in our current economy.

Anna








> On 15 Oct 2017, at 21:38, Kevin Carson  
> wrote:
> 
> But besides being multi-generational, a household can incorporate
> multiple families -- approaching primary social units like
> hunter-gather bands or clans in size. At that point, given
> micromanufacturing technology, a majority of food and finished goods
> production might take place in the household sector and not be
> governed by reciprocity. That would amount to an expansion of the
> household to incorporate a major part of the economy, even if a
> considerable social economy remained to coordinate exchange of
> surpluses between such primary social units or to coordinate the
> remaining forms of production that require a scale beyond their
> resources.
> 
>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 1:16 AM, Roberto Verzola  wrote:
>> I will argue that the household (whether it is a nuclear family or a 
>> multi-generational one) is qualitatively different from the other three 
>> (govt, market, commons) and therefore deserves to be treated separately.
>> 
>> The basic difference is that members of the household do not put a high 
>> priority, if they consider it important at all, to keep track of values 
>> created and exchanged within the household. Governments and markets keep 
>> very close track. Those who share common resources presumably want some 
>> accounting and tracking too, if not as detailed as the other two, to guard 
>> against free-riders and to reward to some extent those who contribute most 
>> to the common resource pool.
>> 
>> In our work on energy, for instance, we consider it important that a 
>> microgrid operated as a commons have a bidirectional electric meter (the old 
>> analog meter is enough) installed per household, to keep track of imports 
>> and exports of electricity. We have, by the way, concluded that net metering 
>> is the simplest way to do so, making it a long-term solution to the problem 
>> of accounting for the P2P exchanges that will increasingly occur in a grid. 
>> (Unlike the feed-in-tariff system successfully pioneered by Germany, which 
>> seems to be approaching the end of its useful life.)
>> 
>> Greetings to all,
>> 
>> Roberto
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 12:13:15 +0700
>> Michel Bauwens  wrote:
>> 
>>> thanks Kevin, good point,
>>> 
>>> Michel
>>> 
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 14:13:47 -0500
>>> From: Kevin Carson 
>>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] thinking true meta-governance and the gaps in p2p
>>>theory regarding the household economy
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>> 
>>> IMO the boundary between the household and the larger informal/social
>>> economy is very permeable. The nuclear family household is relatively
>>> recent and artificial, and to a considerable extent encouraged by 20th
>>> century capitalism's promotion of social atomization which reduced the
>>> household to the smallest possible size which would still socialize
>>> the costs of reproducing labor-power and the culture of obedience
>>> without providing a potential base for cost-, income- and risk-pooling
>>> which might increase the bargaining power of labor. It's quite likely
>>> that as total labor hours decline and precarity increases, we'll see a
>>> lot more not only of multi-generational houses but of multi-family
>>> cohousing, micro-villages and the like that internalize an increasing
>>> share of direct production for use.
>>> --
>>> Check 

Re: [P2P-F] commons and households

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Roberto. I agree that to brush over the distinction between the 
household and the wider social economy will miss qualitative differences, and 
particularly the one you mention.

Kevin emphasises the recent nature of the nuclear family, but the quality you 
point to is a characteristic of more extended households. 

> "The basic difference is that members of the household do not put a high 
> priority, if they consider it important at all, to keep track of values 
> created and exchanged within the household."

It is that quality, which is not based on reciprocity, which, I maintain, is 
the foundation of every sustainable society. It emanates from the mother child 
relationship, (seen as archetype rather than in the particular ways it 
manifests), which prioritises care and love above exchange values. It is this 
factor which has been confined as Kevin points out, to the smallest possible 
unit, because it challenges the very nature of the economy based on scarcity 
and objectifying people and nature, and which the Commons needs to acknowledge 
as the ultimate basis of any wholesome relationship. 

Anna

> On 15 Oct 2017, at 07:16, Roberto Verzola  wrote:
> 
> I will argue that the household (whether it is a nuclear family or a 
> multi-generational one) is qualitatively different from the other three 
> (govt, market, commons) and therefore deserves to be treated separately.
> 
> The basic difference is that members of the household do not put a high 
> priority, if they consider it important at all, to keep track of values 
> created and exchanged within the household. Governments and markets keep very 
> close track. Those who share common resources presumably want some accounting 
> and tracking too, if not as detailed as the other two, to guard against 
> free-riders and to reward to some extent those who contribute most to the 
> common resource pool.
> 
> In our work on energy, for instance, we consider it important that a 
> microgrid operated as a commons have a bidirectional electric meter (the old 
> analog meter is enough) installed per household, to keep track of imports and 
> exports of electricity. We have, by the way, concluded that net metering is 
> the simplest way to do so, making it a long-term solution to the problem of 
> accounting for the P2P exchanges that will increasingly occur in a grid. 
> (Unlike the feed-in-tariff system successfully pioneered by Germany, which 
> seems to be approaching the end of its useful life.)
> 
> Greetings to all,
> 
> Roberto
> 
> 
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 12:13:15 +0700
> Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
>> thanks Kevin, good point,
>> 
>> Michel
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 14:13:47 -0500
>> From: Kevin Carson 
>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] thinking true meta-governance and the gaps in p2p
>>   theory regarding the household economy
>> Message-ID:
>>   
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> 
>> IMO the boundary between the household and the larger informal/social
>> economy is very permeable. The nuclear family household is relatively
>> recent and artificial, and to a considerable extent encouraged by 20th
>> century capitalism's promotion of social atomization which reduced the
>> household to the smallest possible size which would still socialize
>> the costs of reproducing labor-power and the culture of obedience
>> without providing a potential base for cost-, income- and risk-pooling
>> which might increase the bargaining power of labor. It's quite likely
>> that as total labor hours decline and precarity increases, we'll see a
>> lot more not only of multi-generational houses but of multi-family
>> cohousing, micro-villages and the like that internalize an increasing
>> share of direct production for use.
>> -- 
>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
>> 
>> 
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> 
>> Updates:
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> 
>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> 
> 
> -- 
> Roberto Verzola 
> 
> ___
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Wiki - 

Re: [P2P-F] What do I Know?

[Anna Harris]

Dear Michel,

Rereading your emails, there seem to be two conflicting themes. The evidence 
you quote about decreasing levels of violence in our 'civilised' societies, 
seems to indicate the need to restrain natural male aggression, supporting 
Ranjani's point, which I have questioned.

In our 'civilised' society, in my view, all our relationships have elements of 
'power over', reflecting the hierarchical and class divisions you mention. We 
know that power over relationships naturally engender aggression because they 
threaten the autonomy and freedom of the individual, both the one with power 
and the one subjugated, and thus necessitate repressive measures to avoid 
conflict. 

Entering post civilisation processes then, (as I understand that term without I 
confess having read the book) insofar as they develop a more egalitarian 
society, can in my view, resolve the cause of aggression and the need for 
repressive measures - (here is the importance of quoting the example of small 
band hunter gatherer societies as being more egalitarian and less aggressive)

However, if men are aggressive by nature, those repressive measures will still 
be needed, which reinstates hierarchy, and we are back to square one.

Anna



> On 24 Jul 2017, at 15:45, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Dear Michel,
> 
> We have had this discussion before, and you have failed to convince me. My 
> reading seems to have taken me in the opposite direction, coming across many 
> who see prehistory, and some still existing people, eg aborigines, as a time 
> when people lived harmoniously with each other and environment. 
> 
> 'Australian aboriginal people have lived in harmony with the earth for 
> perhaps as long as 100,000 years; in their words, since the First Day. In 
> this absorbing work, Lawlor explores the essence of their culture as a source 
> of and guide to transforming our own world view. While not romanticizing the 
> past or suggesting a return to the life of the hunter/gatherer, Voices of the 
> First Day enables us to enter into the mentality of the oldest continuous 
> culture on earth and gain insight into our own relationship with the earth 
> and to each other.
> 
> This book offers an opportunity to suspend our values, prejudices, and 
> Eurocentrism and step into the Dreaming to discover:
> 
> • A people who rejected agriculture, architecture, writing, clothing, and the 
> subjugation of animals
> 
> • A lifestyle of hunting and gathering that provided abundant food of 
> unsurpassed nutritional value 
> 
> • Initiatic and ritual practices that hold the origins of all esoteric, 
> yogic, magical, and shamanistic traditions 
> 
> • A sexual and emotional life that afforded diversity and fluidity as well as 
> marital and social stability 
> 
> • A people who valued kinship, community, and the law of the Dreamtime as 
> their greatest "possessions." 
> 
> • Language whose richness of structure and vocabulary reveals new worlds of 
> perception and comprehension. 
> 
> • A people balanced between the Dreaming and the perceivable world, in 
> harmony with all species and living each day as the First Day.'
> 
> Anna
> 
>> On 24 Jul 2017, at 14:19, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> 
>> dear Anna,
>> 
>> if you read anthropological accounts of Amazonian native tribes, such as in 
>> the books of Pierre Clastre (societies against the state), and others, then 
>> it seems that warfare was endemic, he even describes it as 'their favourite 
>> passtime'; at the same time, it was more 'sporadic' , since nomadic tribes 
>> can move and thus avoid protacted conflict. This is in 'our times', so you 
>> could argue that it was different 'in the past'. The evidence does not 
>> support it. I had to revise my romantic notions that prehistory was less 
>> violent. That evidence was not yet available in the books I used to read in 
>> my youth.
>> 
>> Here is the study showing violence has percentually decreased since 
>> prehistoric times:
>> 
>> here is the key passage: "I have collected data on violent deaths; the long 
>> list of sources can be found below. These data show that in prehistoric 
>> times (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic 
>> evidence) the levels of violence was much higher than in modern state 
>> societies and in the world today."
>> 
>> from 
>> https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths/
>> 
>> the study (of studies) summarized:
>> 
>> "The proportion of human deaths phylogenetically predicted to be caused by 
>> interpersonal violence stood at 2%. This value was 

Re: [P2P-F] What do I Know?

[Anna Harris]

Dear Michel,

We have had this discussion before, and you have failed to convince me. My 
reading seems to have taken me in the opposite direction, coming across many 
who see prehistory, and some still existing people, eg aborigines, as a time 
when people lived harmoniously with each other and environment. 

'Australian aboriginal people have lived in harmony with the earth for perhaps 
as long as 100,000 years; in their words, since the First Day. In this 
absorbing work, Lawlor explores the essence of their culture as a source of and 
guide to transforming our own world view. While not romanticizing the past or 
suggesting a return to the life of the hunter/gatherer, Voices of the First Day 
enables us to enter into the mentality of the oldest continuous culture on 
earth and gain insight into our own relationship with the earth and to each 
other.

This book offers an opportunity to suspend our values, prejudices, and 
Eurocentrism and step into the Dreaming to discover:

• A people who rejected agriculture, architecture, writing, clothing, and the 
subjugation of animals

• A lifestyle of hunting and gathering that provided abundant food of 
unsurpassed nutritional value 

• Initiatic and ritual practices that hold the origins of all esoteric, yogic, 
magical, and shamanistic traditions 

• A sexual and emotional life that afforded diversity and fluidity as well as 
marital and social stability 

• A people who valued kinship, community, and the law of the Dreamtime as their 
greatest "possessions." 

• Language whose richness of structure and vocabulary reveals new worlds of 
perception and comprehension. 

• A people balanced between the Dreaming and the perceivable world, in harmony 
with all species and living each day as the First Day.'

Anna

> On 24 Jul 2017, at 14:19, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> 
> dear Anna,
> 
> if you read anthropological accounts of Amazonian native tribes, such as in 
> the books of Pierre Clastre (societies against the state), and others, then 
> it seems that warfare was endemic, he even describes it as 'their favourite 
> passtime'; at the same time, it was more 'sporadic' , since nomadic tribes 
> can move and thus avoid protacted conflict. This is in 'our times', so you 
> could argue that it was different 'in the past'. The evidence does not 
> support it. I had to revise my romantic notions that prehistory was less 
> violent. That evidence was not yet available in the books I used to read in 
> my youth.
> 
> Here is the study showing violence has percentually decreased since 
> prehistoric times:
> 
> here is the key passage: "I have collected data on violent deaths; the long 
> list of sources can be found below. These data show that in prehistoric times 
> (archeological evidence) and in non-state societies (ethnographic evidence) 
> the levels of violence was much higher than in modern state societies and in 
> the world today."
> 
> from 
> https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths/
> 
> the study (of studies) summarized:
> 
> "The proportion of human deaths phylogenetically predicted to be caused by 
> interpersonal violence stood at 2%. This value was similar to the one 
> phylogenetically inferred for the evolutionary ancestor of primates and apes, 
> indicating that a certain level of lethal violence arises owing to our 
> position within the phylogeny of mammals. It was also similar to the 
> percentage seen in prehistoric bands and tribes, indicating that we were as 
> lethally violent then as common mammalian evolutionary history would predict. 
> However, the level of lethal violence has changed through human history and 
> can be associated with changes in the socio-political organization of human 
> populations. Our study provides a detailed phylogenetic and historical 
> context against which to compare levels of lethal violence observed 
> throughout our history."
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v538/n7624/full/nature19758.html
> 
>  
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thank you Michel. Actually I was just questioning whether aggression and 
>> violence are a natural tendency in males, which has to be supressed. As 
>> Rajani says:
>> 
>> "They managed to restrain male destructive drives – which are the scourge of 
>> all living things -  within the prison of affective, kin relations to the 
>> extent  humanly possible:"
>> 
>> And unlike you I do not see aggression and nurturing as polarities in each 
>> of us. The evidence of prehistory as I have been reading would seem to 
>> suggest that for many hundreds of thousands of years groups of small band 
>&g

Re: [P2P-F] What do I Know?

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Michel. Actually I was just questioning whether aggression and 
violence are a natural tendency in males, which has to be supressed. As Rajani 
says:

"They managed to restrain male destructive drives – which are the scourge of 
all living things -  within the prison of affective, kin relations to the 
extent  humanly possible:"

And unlike you I do not see aggression and nurturing as polarities in each of 
us. The evidence of prehistory as I have been reading would seem to suggest 
that for many hundreds of thousands of years groups of small band hunter 
gatherers lived harmoniously without need for interfighting. 

See my article : http://sublimemagazine.com/healthy-birth-healthy-earth

Anna


> On 24 Jul 2017, at 10:10, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for this reaction Anna,
> 
> I agree about agression and nurturing to be polarities in each of us, which 
> may then be culturally re-inforced and fixated in all kinds of ways by 
> cultures and societies,
> 
> But patriarchy predates EM by thousands of years, and gendering predates 
> patriarchy by tens of thousands if not more. It is easy to forget that even 
> in tribal societies, with very strong nurturing, and this could be true even 
> for matriarchal societies (who engaged in hunt and had to defend themselves), 
> that male initiation was especially geared towards de-sensitizing males and 
> habituating them to violence. A meta-study last year was pretty unequivocal: 
> the amount of human to human violence has dramatically decreased over time. 
> Civilizational and nation-state based wars can have a terrible cost, but 
> overall, the percentages are dramatically lower than in most tribal societies 
> (anthropologists and others have counted skeletons and how they died, i.e. 
> percentage of signs of violence vs illnesses etc..)
> 
> Ironically, though the balance and positions between males and females have 
> varied over time, I think only EM derivatives have allowed the flexibility 
> you describe.
> 
> The question is: can this be married with a return to nurturing ? To the 
> degree that we can enter post-civilisational processes (see A. Chandler for a 
> definition of civilization that is specifically linked to class based 
> societies, the need for internal repression, and thus , the need to 
> de-sensitize and make nurturing more difficult), we can develop renewed 
> nurturing practices. I see a lot of evidence of this around me, and more 
> specifically, in EM derived cultures, while where I live hear in East Asia, 
> maybe because of earlier forms of EM influences, the evolution may go in the 
> other direction (a lot of east-asian women in the middle classes do not want 
> to nourish their children directly because of aesthetic reasons for example, 
> and the men have to work harder and are less at home). The movement for 
> labor, gender, race and civic rights, to the degree they are protests against 
> hierarchical and class divisions, are post-civilisational and create the 
> basis for renewed emphasis on nurturing. (see how maternal and paternal leave 
> allows parents to spend more time with their children)
> 
> Michel
> 
> 
> 
> < Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 08:41:24 +0100
> From: Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk>
> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org>,
> rka...@fas.harvard.edu
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: What do I Know?
> Message-ID: <624f7eb1-c7ef-44a6-a7e6-6f63e0a5b...@shsh.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Dear Rajani,
> 
>  In this long rant there are nuggets of truth which shine, but I have a 
> quibble with one particular statement which is fundamental to your approach, 
> - that men are naturally aggressive and violent.
> 
> "I also know that men and women are profoundly,  and naturally, dissimilar.
> By instinct,  men are aggressive and violent, and  women are nurturing".
> 
> Our definition of what is masculine and what is feminine has been defined for 
> us by our culture which, as you have demonstrated, has been contaminated with 
> EM values. These definitions are being questioned now by people who don't fit 
> in to these gender categories, who are demanding at an increasingly younger 
> age, to be seen as non binary. Those of us who grew up with these definitions 
> may be becoming more fully aware of our own discomfort at being thrust into 
> one or other of these gender categories.
> 
> Progressives have got so far as to allow that masculine and feminine energies 
> exist in both men and women. But it seems a bridge too far to question the 
> very definition of masculine and feminine as culturally dictated.
> 
> While this may seem peripheral to 

[P2P-F] Can you hear us?

[Anna Harris]

Iceland crowd sources a new constitution

'Constitutionalising does not stop after a certain point, but ought to continue 
as a fundamental part of social and political activity.'

https://theconversation.com/icelands-crowd-sourced-constitution-hope-for-disillusioned-voters-everywhere-67803

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38187599

https://canyouhearus.is___
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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: Trump's Victory - Mourning and Analysis

[Anna Harris]

I think the first step is to respect the 'will of the people', rather than 
respond with this wholesale mourning, as though the election of Hilary Clinton 
would have been a win for progressives. We knew there was little to choose 
between them. But the reaction this morning is of tears of frustration and 
people stunned that they 'lost'. That anyone could stand up to the official 
machinery of media campaigns and accusations should give us some hope, that the 
people can think for themselves. But then they choose something we don't like. 
And all hell breaks loose. At least among 'progressives'. 

Anna

> On 10 Nov 2016, at 08:02, Denis Postle  wrote:
> 
> Yes, and...
> “If it is a sudden change in status to a once dominant group that drives 
> electorates to the far right, as political scientist Roger Petersen has 
> argued – then we have to start with the biggest change in status of all time. 
> That is the reproductive shock that began 50 years ago, with the pill, which 
> has put women into boardrooms, frontline combat roles and, more relevantly, 
> control over who they have sex with, and when, and how.” 
> https://gu.com/p/5b5ee/sbl
> from Paul Mason Guardian today
> 
>> On 11/10/2016 8:18 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> I strongly agree with Michael Lerner's approach here:
>> 
>> "http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/opinion/election-night-2016/stop-shaming-trump-supporters
>> 
>> "The right has been very successful at persuading working people that they 
>> are vulnerable not because they themselves have failed, but because of the 
>> selfishness of some other villain (African-Americans, feminists, immigrants, 
>> Muslims, Jews, liberals, progressives; the list keeps growing).
>> Instead of challenging this ideology of shame, the left has buttressed it by 
>> blaming white people as a whole for slavery, genocide of the Native 
>> Americans and a host of other sins, as though whiteness itself was something 
>> about which people ought to be ashamed. The rage many white working-class 
>> people feel in response is rooted in the sense that once again, as has 
>> happened to them throughout their lives, they are being misunderstood.
>> 
>> So please understand what is happening here. Many Trump supporters very 
>> legitimately feel that it is they who have been facing an unfair reality. 
>> The upper 20 percent of income earners, many of them quite liberal and 
>> rightly committed to the defense of minorities and immigrants, also believe 
>> in the economic meritocracy and their own right to have so much more than 
>> those who are less fortunate. So while they may be progressive on issues of 
>> discrimination against the obvious victims of racism and sexism, they are 
>> blind to their own class privilege and to the hidden injuries of class that 
>> are internalized by much of the country as self-blame.
>> 
>> The right’s ability to portray liberals as elitists is further strengthened 
>> by the phobia toward religion that prevails in the left. Many religious 
>> people are drawn by the teachings of their tradition to humane values and 
>> caring about the oppressed. Yet they often find that liberal culture is 
>> hostile to religion of any sort, believing it is irrational and filled with 
>> hate. People on the left rarely open themselves to the possibility that 
>> there could be a spiritual crisis in society that plays a role in the lives 
>> of many who feel misunderstood and denigrated by the fancy intellectuals and 
>> radical activists.
>> 
>> The left needs to stop ignoring people’s inner pain and fear. The racism, 
>> sexism and xenophobia used by Mr. Trump to advance his candidacy does not 
>> reveal an inherent malice in the majority of Americans. If the left could 
>> abandon all this shaming, it could rebuild its political base by helping 
>> Americans see that much of people’s suffering is rooted in the hidden 
>> injuries of class and in the spiritual crisis that the global competitive 
>> marketplace generates.
>> 
>> Democrats need to become as conscious and articulate about the suffering 
>> caused by classism as we are about other forms of suffering. We need to 
>> reach out to Trump voters in a spirit of empathy and contrition,"
>> 
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Rabbi Michael Lerner and Peter Gabel at Tikkun magazine and the 
>> Network of Spiritual Progressives 
>> Date: Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:07 AM
>> Subject: Trump's Victory - Mourning and Analysis
>> To: michelsub2...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> SUPPORT TIKKUN GET THE MAGAZINE ADVERTISE JOIN THE MOVEMENT
>> I too am mourning and grieving the election results. This is a sad and scary 
>> time for our country. Like many of you, I am stunned at the results. We need 
>> to take time to grieve and mourn, to express our shock and even our rage in 
>> community where we are held.
>> 
>> 
>> And we need to mobilize now more than ever. If ever 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] our p2p/commons contribution to Journey to Earthland (GTN Discussion) (Michel Bauwens)

[Anna Harris]

That's interesting Bob, do you have any details?

> On 7 Nov 2016, at 13:58, Bob Haugen <bob.hau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> We worked with a group in Nova Scotia a few years ago that was focused
> on economic issues (especially fishing ports), but early childhood
> development was one of their main themes, and they thought both issues
> were intimately related and inseparable.
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> Military spending is notoriously difficult to observe accurately. However
>> manufactured arms is a better assessment than official defence spending.
>> 
>> "According to research institute, SIPRI, the volume of international
>> transfers of major weapons in 2010–14 was 16 per cent higher than in
>> 2005–2009. The five biggest exporters in 2010–14 were the United States, the
>> United Kingdom, Russia, China and France, and the five biggest importers were
>> India, Saudi Arabia, China, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Pakistan. The
>> flow of arms to Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, and the Middle East
>> increased significantly between 2005–2009 and 2010–14, while there was a
>> notable decrease in the flow to Europe.
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
>> 
>> When we think of violence being an acceptable part of our daily lives, and
>> the dissociation which this requires, this is more than just numbers
>> however. It is to do with reporting violent crimes, violence in
>> entertainment, video games. It is to do with emotions still being seen as
>> having no part in scientific discourse. There are many aspects of this which
>> result in people accepting soul destroying jobs, increases in anxiety and
>> depression etc. Basically not valuing life.
>> 
>> The foundation for all this is set at birth. It may seem incongruous to
>> introduce babies into a discussion about structural economic transformation.
>> But unless we address those first experiences of a baby's life, it is my
>> belief that we will not be able to shift the power play which dominates all
>> our lives.
>> 
>> Anna
>> 
>> 
>> On 6 Nov 2016, at 13:07, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> 
>> dear Anna,
>> 
>> I fully agree with your perspective and conclusions here, and that we must
>> learn from the good practices of societies before our own, and one's that
>> exist today with better child-rearing practices ..
>> 
>> here are some historical trends on military spending though; it is my
>> understanding that for many western european countries, military spending is
>> down in relative terms, but I checked the UK which is more militaristic than
>> most, it seems down there as well, see 'historical perspectives' here at
>> https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending/
>> 
>> nevertheless with the increasing social and ecological crisis, social
>> instability is again in the air, and it is not at all impossible to see
>> increasing re-armament trends,
>> 
>> Michel
>> 
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not
>>> to idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can
>>> learn from them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal
>>> groups studied were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal
>>> cultures in general. And the point is to take what is good, not import
>>> wholesale. The evidence is based on recent neurobiological research, not
>>> social history.
>>> 
>>> The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of
>>> the importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with
>>> breathtaking ignorance.
>>> 
>>> But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for
>>> volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not
>>> nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our
>>> lives, and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself
>>> reveals a general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and
>>> planet. Many still enter the military because it's the only job open to them
>>> without qualifications, and they are treated as heroes.
>>> 
>>> If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that
>>> comes after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much wor

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] our p2p/commons contribution to Journey to Earthland (GTN Discussion) (Michel Bauwens)

[Anna Harris]

Military spending is notoriously difficult to observe accurately. However 
manufactured arms is a better assessment than official defence spending.

"According to research institute, SIPRI, the volume of international transfers 
of major weapons in 2010–14 was 16 per cent higher than in 2005–2009. The five 
biggest exporters in 2010–14 were the United States, the United Kingdom, 
Russia, China and France, and the five biggest importers were India, Saudi 
Arabia, China, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Pakistan. The flow of arms to 
Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, and the Middle East increased 
significantly between 2005–2009 and 2010–14, while there was a notable decrease 
in the flow to Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

When we think of violence being an acceptable part of our daily lives, and the 
dissociation which this requires, this is more than just numbers however. It is 
to do with reporting violent crimes, violence in entertainment, video games. It 
is to do with emotions still being seen as having no part in scientific 
discourse. There are many aspects of this which result in people accepting soul 
destroying jobs, increases in anxiety and depression etc. Basically not valuing 
life.

The foundation for all this is set at birth. It may seem incongruous to 
introduce babies into a discussion about structural economic transformation. 
But unless we address those first experiences of a baby's life, it is my belief 
that we will not be able to shift the power play which dominates all our lives.

Anna


> On 6 Nov 2016, at 13:07, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> 
> dear Anna,
> 
> I fully agree with your perspective and conclusions here, and that we must 
> learn from the good practices of societies before our own, and one's that 
> exist today with better child-rearing practices ..
> 
> here are some historical trends on military spending though; it is my 
> understanding that for many western european countries, military spending is 
> down in relative terms, but I checked the UK which is more militaristic than 
> most, it seems down there as well, see 'historical perspectives' here at 
> https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending/
> 
> nevertheless with the increasing social and ecological crisis, social 
> instability is again in the air, and it is not at all impossible to see 
> increasing re-armament trends,
> 
> Michel
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not to 
>> idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can learn 
>> from them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal groups 
>> studied were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal cultures 
>> in general. And the point is to take what is good, not import wholesale. The 
>> evidence is based on recent neurobiological research, not social history.
>> 
>> The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of 
>> the importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with 
>> breathtaking ignorance.
>> 
>> But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for 
>> volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not 
>> nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our 
>> lives, and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself 
>> reveals a general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and 
>> planet. Many still enter the military because it's the only job open to them 
>> without qualifications, and they are treated as heroes.
>> 
>> If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that comes 
>> after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much work is done to counteract 
>> that impression. It will also affect the neurobiological development of the 
>> newborn, in damaging ways that are difficult to reverse. That is why I am 
>> emphasising the need to focus on that entry point, to ensure that as far as 
>> possible, the experience of the newborn is tenderly loving and sensitively 
>> cared for. Leading hopefully to the conclusion of Michel's last paragraph, 
>> with which I strongly agree.
>> 
>>> On 6 Nov 2016, at 10:24, peter waterman <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A good argument, I think, Michel, especially since it has more general 
>>> implications for facile references to 'el buen vivir' or 'ubuntu'. 
>>> 
>>> I make such references myself but by 'facile' I mean an idealisation of the 
>>> pre-capitalist, pre-class

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] our p2p/commons contribution to Journey to Earthland (GTN Discussion) (Michel Bauwens)

[Anna Harris]

I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not to 
idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can learn from 
them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal groups studied 
were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal cultures in general. 
And the point is to take what is good, not import wholesale. The evidence is 
based on recent neurobiological research, not social history.

The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of the 
importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with 
breathtaking ignorance.

But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for 
volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not 
nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our lives, 
and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself reveals a 
general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and planet. Many 
still enter the military because it's the only job open to them without 
qualifications, and they are treated as heroes.

If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that comes 
after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much work is done to counteract that 
impression. It will also affect the neurobiological development of the newborn, 
in damaging ways that are difficult to reverse. That is why I am emphasising 
the need to focus on that entry point, to ensure that as far as possible, the 
experience of the newborn is tenderly loving and sensitively cared for. Leading 
hopefully to the conclusion of Michel's last paragraph, with which I strongly 
agree.

> On 6 Nov 2016, at 10:24, peter waterman <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A good argument, I think, Michel, especially since it has more general 
> implications for facile references to 'el buen vivir' or 'ubuntu'. 
> 
> I make such references myself but by 'facile' I mean an idealisation of the 
> pre-capitalist, pre-class, non-western, society. Such references might serve 
> as useful sticks with which to batter idealised/essentialised Western 
> civilisation/culture, but they hardly help us to dialogue either with such 
> tiny/isolated autonomous formations as might still exist, even less to relate 
> to contemporary indigenous communities, deeply affected by consumer 
> fetishism, equipped with cellphones, and taking action on their own behalves 
> in manners that require (self-)reflection.
> 
> P
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>> There is much evidence to show that competitiveness and anxiety traits, 
>>> built in to our modern birth and child rearing practices, support the trend 
>>> towards violence in later life. The lack of care at this crucial point in 
>>> life, sets the tone for later states of dissociation which allow military 
>>> personnel to destroy other human beings without compunction, as well as the 
>>> general lack of connection with the natural environment on which we all 
>>> depend.
>> 
>> so first a general remark of your critique. I guess I'm an 
>> integrative-structuralist, which means that what you suggest is part of my 
>> approach, and is well documented on our wiki, but, in this contribution, I 
>> focus on the structural necessity of the commons/caring shift, which is 
>> inevitably linked to the underlying psycho-bodily-relational structures.
>> 
>> But this being said, I can't agree with the idealization of the paragraph. 
>> We actually now know that tribal cultures were  violent than 
>> state-based systems, not less, and that the attachment parenting (which is 
>> good, and I have practiced largely with my children, but especially the last 
>> two), was inextricably linked to the desensitization produced by the male 
>> initiation rituals.
>> 
>> Reading the the Institute of Psycho-History, and especially their very 
>> well-document 'History of Child Abuse", is very instructive. In fact, we 
>> have now a unprecedented number of children who have been education through 
>> democratic and respectful parenting, and they are the ones driving the peer 
>> to peer/ commons / collaborative culture we draw on. Military training is 
>> now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices 
>> are not nearly as generalized as they once were.
>> 
>> There are of course huge pockets of the population (say the Trump voters, 
>> and the books of George Makoff), where authoritarian education continues to 
&g

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Into the digital void? – International Socialism

[Anna Harris]

Orsan, I think what you are saying here links with the question Bob raised 
about agroecology on small scale farms, as the answer to corporate industrial 
agriculture. What is the difference and why is it so important?

It is clear that on small scale farms there is a possibility, even a tendency, 
towards a relationship to the soil, the livestock, the crops, and the 
environment. This profound connection raises the consciousness of those 
involved, so that they tend to feel protective of the resources they use, and 
respect the natural environment. This connection can address the alienation 
experienced by most of us when we remain totally cut off from where our food 
comes from, and how it is grown. This is not just a question of information, 
knowing the name of the farmer etc, but also a feeling of care which can be 
communicated by 'home grown' vegetables, or farmers markets.

This is not to say that we should not use automation where appropriate on small 
scale farms. But we need to recognise that the earth is our home, and should be 
treated with some reverence. When we harm the soil with fertilisers, weed 
killers and insecticides, we are killing our home.

> On 18 Oct 2016, at 00:07, Orsan Senalp  wrote:
> 
> 
> It is not surprising that in this, grounded critics of digital capitalism by 
> Upchurch, in an SWP comm tool, overlooks, as its targeted perspectives, 
> namely 'consciousness-ideology-alienation-hegemony' dimensions in the whole 
> thing. I think it is time to put forward such critics instead of trying to 
> grasp only the objective aspects of the issue. In my opinion the letter, 
> subjective aspect is as important and vital the objective aspects as we want 
> to not only understand but also change the reality imposed and steered by the 
> capital. 
> Orsan
> 
> 
>> On 17 okt. 2016, at 09:13, peter waterman  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> ​I may have previously posted this item, or another version of such.
>> 
>> However, I don't mind re-posting it in so far as it seems to be a major 
>> Marxist (not to mention Trotskyist or SWP) position on the matter.
>> 
>> My feeling is that it is over-determinist. Or that it's pessimism of the 
>> intellect is unbalanced by an optimism of the will?
>> 
>> Or, again, that the author does not recognise 1) the technological quantum 
>> leap that ICT represents (Castells compares it to the invention of the 
>> alphabet, not the steam-engine), nor 2) the contradictory nature of ICT.
>> 
>> So, finally, I would appreciate other - better qualified - opinions on the 
>> matter.
>> 
>> Pw
>> 
>> 
>> ​http://isj.org.uk/into-the-digital-void/
>> ___
>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
> ___
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
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[P2P-F] Digital democracy

[Anna Harris]

Letter in reply to 
http://realdemocracymovement.org/the-power-and-the-potential-of-the-social-movement-behind-corbyn/


Gerry Gold| 30th August 2016 at 10:20 amLog in to Reply
Today, Jeremy Corbyn launched his digital democracy manifesto. It will not only 
democratise the internet but use digital technologies to revolutionise the 
process of democracy. 
Here’s a summary of the Digital Democracy manifesto : 
Universal Service Network – We will deliver high speed broadband and mobile 
connectivity for every household, company and organisation in Britain from the 
inner city neighbourhoods to the remotest rural community.
Open Knowledge Library – We will create a free-to-use on-line hub of learning 
resources for the National Education Service.
Platform Cooperatives – We will foster the cooperative ownership of digital 
platforms for distributing labour and selling services. The National Investment 
Bank and regional banks will help to finance social enterprises whose websites 
and apps are designed to minimise the costs of connecting producers with 
consumers in the transport, accommodation, cultural, catering and other 
important sectors of the British economy.
Digital Citizen Passport – We will develop a voluntary scheme that provides 
British citizens with a secure and portable identity for their on-line 
activities. The Digital Citizen Passport will be used when interacting with 
public services like health, welfare, education and housing.
Programming For Everyone – We will require that all publicly funded software 
and hardware is released under an Open Source licence.
A People’s Charter of Digital Liberty Rights – We will launch a public 
consultation with people and parties across the political spectrum to draw up a 
digital bill of rights.
Massive Multi-Person On-line Deliberation – We will utilise information 
technologies to make popular participation in the democratic process easy and 
inclusive. We will aim to organise both online and offline meetings for 
individuals and communities to deliberate about pressing political issues and 
participate in devising new legislation.
All in all this is an exciting set of proposals. But there’s plenty missing. 
Most of all the party under Corbyn’s leadership needs to develop a bold new 
system of social ownership for the entire digital infrastructure. What’s 
urgently needed is a not-for-profit replacement for the insane global 
competition that seeks to exploit the networks and storage in the Cloud, and 
uses all of our individual identities as commodities for sale, targets for 
advertising by the highest bidder. 
Let’s look further to co-operative ownership for all of the global networks – 
not just the information service providers, but extending its reach to 
financial services including banking. That will require a Corbyn-led government 
to work with other similar-minded governments throughout the world to implement 
a new form of co-operative globalisation – not to coexist with but to replace 
the domination of the global economy by rapacious transnational corporations 
and vulture funds.___
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[P2P-F] The social movement behind Corbyn

[Anna Harris]

http://realdemocracymovement.org/the-power-and-the-potential-of-the-social-movement-behind-corbyn/



'The cause of this lies deeper still, in the subjugation of democracy by the 
corporations and the financial institutions. Sovereignty lies not with 
Parliament but with extra-parliamentary forces that dictate to nation states 
and their institutions.

This is the essence of the crisis of democracy which is ultimately pushing the 
Corbyn phenomena. So it’s heartening that in a statement as voting began, 
Corbyn pledged to ‘extend democracy across Britain’, including a commitment to 
a ‘radical overhaul of the constitution’. He said:

“We will support radical devolution of power to local councils, regions and 
nations, in consultation with party members and local people; replace the House 
of Lords with an elected second chamber; end the ‘revolving door’ corporate 
grip on politics and the civil service; and create a new role for citizens’ 
assemblies in shaping political accountability for the future.

“We will give people a real say in their local communities, through democratic 
participation in budgeting, online democracy and control of local services; 
full transparency in public decision-making and contracts with private 
companies; and a citizens’ right to challenge the outsourcing and privatisation 
of local services through referendums.”'

___
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] a short response to queries about the p2p'f workings in WSF

[Anna Harris]

Orsan,

 I think I understand your reluctance to be part of an organisation. There is a 
saying from a Sufi called Al Niffari : 'every form has a tendency to self 
perpetuation in it'. It is inevitable that members of an organisation feel a 
loyalty towards it.

I rejoined the Labour Party because I wanted to vote for Corbyn, but I have now 
left again. It is clear to me that loyalty to the party influences how people 
think and act. They are no longer free.

But this is a personal choice. Organisations also accomplish a lot. The name, 
the label, signifies something. What you cannot do is try to separate how much 
people are 'in it for themselves', and how much they genuinely want to promote 
'global emancipation', or whatever you want to call it. These things cannot be 
separated, or judged by some external standard, like funding. Is there any area 
where money is not involved? Is there any money which is not tainted? I would 
guess there is always some ego involved, so what? 

Maybe you feel wronged in some way. Maybe you have a genuine grievance. Your 
resentment is your own problem, you do not help your cause by trying to get 
others to apologise. Get over it!

Anna



> On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:29, Orsan Senalp  wrote:
> 
> 
> It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember 
> well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 
> 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and 
> theory wise good enough at your network. 
> 
> My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 
> 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, 
> since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to 
> build.
> 
> It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve 
> the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the 
> structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps 
> ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self 
> better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being 
> able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal 
> perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or 
> chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your 
> genuine intention. 
> 
> Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or 
> anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do 
> what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the 
> objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is 
> totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. 
> That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit 
> from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from 
> any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or 
> similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts 
> of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to 
> work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
> 
> At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that 
> your precarious days are over finally.
> 
> Best, 
> 
> Orsan
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
>> 
>> n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself 
>> included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage 
>> in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and 
>> proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant 
>> that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you 
>> with long pole away ...
> ___
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Partnership v dominator

[Anna Harris]

Another take on the same theme from Ina Praetorius, 'From Equality to 
Reconstructing the World'.

http://www.inapraetorius.ch/index-en.php

http://www.pelicanweb.org/solisustv06n11page2inapraetorius.html

This paper is a reflection on modern economic theory and practices. Key points 
for consideration:

Humans do not come into the world as autonomous, adult market players.
"Economy" originally means "law of the household" (oikos = house, household, 
nomos = law, teaching).
Today the consequences of confusing primary and secondary realities, which is 
notorious in patriarchal societies, are clearly visible.
What we need is an economic theory and practice that refocuses on the 
satisfaction of real needs.
In order to launch this kind of thinking it is helpful to remember one's own 
birth.
Whoever rethinks economics beginning with human babies will realize that the 
patriarchal hierarchical separation of markets and households doesn't make 
sense.
Three proposals are offered for rethinking economics:
To give top priority to basic human needs and the realities of households, 
nursing, and agriculture.
To reinforce the movement for a unconditional basic income with good 
gender-sensitive arguments.
To reform official resource allocation policies that perpetuate the patriarchal 
order and priorities.
From the perspective of sustainable development, these are urgent and 
unavoidable issues that must be faced.

> On 14 Aug 2016, at 15:32, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Bob Haugen  wrote:
>> > ..."two basic social structures: the domination model and the partnership 
>> > model". Eisler "shows how the tension between these two models has shaped 
>> > history, and how the outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or 
>> > extinction for our species."
> 
> Some more info via https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Partnership_Model_of_Society
> 
> Interview[edit]
> The interview was conducted by Cecilia Gingerich for The Next System Project:
> 
> "CG: In your work you describe moving to a “partnership system.” Can you 
> briefly describe what a partnership system is?
> RE: The method I used in my research, the study of relational dynamics, 
> differs from other approaches in a number of critical respects. It draws from 
> a much larger database than most studies of society: it includes the whole of 
> humanity (both its male and female halves), the whole of our history 
> (including prehistory), and the whole of our lives (not only the public 
> spheres of politics and economics, but also the private spheres of family and 
> other intimate relations). It focuses on two systems dynamics; First: What is 
> the relationship between key elements of a social system in maintaining or 
> altering the system’s basic character? And second: What kinds of 
> relationships – from intimate to international – does a social system 
> support: top down ranking or relations based on mutuality?
> 
> This methodology revealed two underlying social patterns or configurations: 
> the partnership model and the domination model. These new social categories 
> transcend conventional ones such as right vs. left, religious vs. secular, 
> ancient vs. modern, capitalist vs. socialist, and so on – which focus only on 
> particular aspects of a system and pay scant, if any, attention to the 
> cultural construction of the primary human relations between the female and 
> male halves of humanity and between them and their daughters and sons. The 
> partnership model and the domination model have two very different core 
> configurations.
> 
> In contrast to domination systems, where there is top-down authoritarian rule 
> in both the family and state or tribe, partnership systems have democracy and 
> equality in both the family and state or tribe.
> 
> Unlike domination systems, where the male half of humanity is ranked over the 
> female half, in partnership systems there is gender equity, and with this, a 
> greater valuing of “feminine” traits and activities such as caring, 
> caregiving, and nonviolence – in both women and men as well as in social and 
> economic policy.
> 
> Whereas domination systems are ultimately held together by fear, force, and 
> the threat of pain, partnership systems are based on mutuality; there are 
> hierarchies, but rather than hierarchies of domination, these are hierarchies 
> of actualization where power is empowering rather than disempowering and 
> accountability, respect, and benefits flow both ways, rather than just from 
> the bottom up. These configurations or models are the two ends of a 
> partnership-domination continuum, as no society is a pure partnership or 
> domination model. But the degree of orientation to either end of this 
> continuum makes for very different social systems. For example, Nazi Germany 
> (secular, Western) and Khomeini’s Iran and ISIL (religious, Eastern) orient 
> closely to the domination model. 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Reformist or radical

[Anna Harris]

It is useful to point out that not all so called 'partnerships' have the same 
ideals as Eisler's partnership model. But not sure what you are referring to, 
Orsan, when you say "imposed gender discourse"??

Anna

> On 14 Aug 2016, at 15:44, Orsan  wrote:
> 
> 
> One would wonder how would Eisler see or explain the public-private 
> 'partnership' or social 'partnership' discourse, which has imposed gender 
> discourse through the good global governance discourses via world development 
> bank, OECD, UN, imf, and EU backed neoliberal developments policy frameworks 
> along the 80s, 90s until today...
> 
> Orsan
> 
> 
>> On 14 aug. 2016, at 16:32, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Bob Haugen  wrote:
>>> > ..."two basic social structures: the domination model and the partnership 
>>> > model". Eisler "shows how the tension between these two models has shaped 
>>> > history, and how the outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or 
>>> > extinction for our species."
>> 
>> Some more info via 
>> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Partnership_Model_of_Society
>> 
>> Interview[edit]
>> The interview was conducted by Cecilia Gingerich for The Next System Project:
>> 
>> "CG: In your work you describe moving to a “partnership system.” Can you 
>> briefly describe what a partnership system is?
>> RE: The method I used in my research, the study of relational dynamics, 
>> differs from other approaches in a number of critical respects. It draws 
>> from a much larger database than most studies of society: it includes the 
>> whole of humanity (both its male and female halves), the whole of our 
>> history (including prehistory), and the whole of our lives (not only the 
>> public spheres of politics and economics, but also the private spheres of 
>> family and other intimate relations). It focuses on two systems dynamics; 
>> First: What is the relationship between key elements of a social system in 
>> maintaining or altering the system’s basic character? And second: What kinds 
>> of relationships – from intimate to international – does a social system 
>> support: top down ranking or relations based on mutuality?
>> 
>> This methodology revealed two underlying social patterns or configurations: 
>> the partnership model and the domination model. These new social categories 
>> transcend conventional ones such as right vs. left, religious vs. secular, 
>> ancient vs. modern, capitalist vs. socialist, and so on – which focus only 
>> on particular aspects of a system and pay scant, if any, attention to the 
>> cultural construction of the primary human relations between the female and 
>> male halves of humanity and between them and their daughters and sons. The 
>> partnership model and the domination model have two very different core 
>> configurations.
>> 
>> In contrast to domination systems, where there is top-down authoritarian 
>> rule in both the family and state or tribe, partnership systems have 
>> democracy and equality in both the family and state or tribe.
>> 
>> Unlike domination systems, where the male half of humanity is ranked over 
>> the female half, in partnership systems there is gender equity, and with 
>> this, a greater valuing of “feminine” traits and activities such as caring, 
>> caregiving, and nonviolence – in both women and men as well as in social and 
>> economic policy.
>> 
>> Whereas domination systems are ultimately held together by fear, force, and 
>> the threat of pain, partnership systems are based on mutuality; there are 
>> hierarchies, but rather than hierarchies of domination, these are 
>> hierarchies of actualization where power is empowering rather than 
>> disempowering and accountability, respect, and benefits flow both ways, 
>> rather than just from the bottom up. These configurations or models are the 
>> two ends of a partnership-domination continuum, as no society is a pure 
>> partnership or domination model. But the degree of orientation to either end 
>> of this continuum makes for very different social systems. For example, Nazi 
>> Germany (secular, Western) and Khomeini’s Iran and ISIL (religious, Eastern) 
>> orient closely to the domination model. The Minangkabau (religious, Eastern) 
>> and Nordic nations (secular, Western) orient to the partnership model."
>> 
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>> 
>> * CG: Can you spend a bit more time describing how a partnership system 
>> would address current environmental issues, and particularly climate change?
>> 
>> RE: Both capitalist and socialist theory fail to recognize the value of 
>> caring for nature. The applications of socialism in both the former Soviet 
>> Union and China have been characterized by environmental disasters. In other 
>> words, it is not just unregulated capitalism that has been bad for our 
>> natural environment.
>> 
>> By contrast, caring for people and for nature is highly valued in 
>> partnership 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

[Anna Harris]

I would be very interested to hear more about these three different
experiences.
The personal is political!

On Aug 14, 2016 6:58 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> I have experienced this dichotomy 'in the flesh' by rearing my 2nd set of
> children in thailand's original attachment parenting style, and my first
> two in the european 'new age re-invention of attachment parenting' style
> ... in reaction to my own nearly opposite experience 
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just that
>> west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <mic...@p2pfoundation.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Anna,
>>>
>>> are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some
>>> interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying
>>>
>>> and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?
>>>
>>> Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because it
>>> breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on domination
>>> vs the rest where all is good,
>>>
>>> see http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to
>>>> respond.
>>>>
>>>> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>>>> your experiences."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do
>>>> have something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So
>>>> eg working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same
>>>> level, upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also
>>>> know these are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.
>>>>
>>>> I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality',
>>>> something we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer
>>>> attracts us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of
>>>> God'. This has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with
>>>> what Peter describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition toward
>>>> global social emancipation".
>>>>
>>>> This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be
>>>> 'on our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.
>>>>
>>>> I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book
>>>> 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. https://www.goodrea
>>>> ds.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-development-o
>>>> f-human-morality
>>>>
>>>> What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met,
>>>> eg if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many
>>>> western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world,
>>>> which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as
>>>> anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child
>>>> bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings
>>>> with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's
>>>> identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty.
>>>>
>>>> There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the
>>>> newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the
>>>> 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture.
>>>> Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot
>>>> be done alone.
>>>>
>>>> See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy
>>>> Birth, Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/
>>>>
>>>> Anna
>>>>
>>>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <bob.hau...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>>>> <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
>>

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

[Anna Harris]

Yes I didn't mean to imply a dichotomy between west and others, just that
west child rearing culture is only one I'm familiar with.

On Aug 14, 2016 4:41 AM, "Michel Bauwens" <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> Dear Anna,
>
> are you familiar with the works of Wilhelm Reich at all .. some
> interesting hypotheses in his work which echo what you are saying
>
> and are you familiar with the Institute for Psycho-History ?
>
> Their history of child abuse is amazing, but also interesting because it
> breaks down the dichotomy between, the west is bad and based on domination
> vs the rest where all is good,
>
> see http://www.primal-page.com/psyhis.htm
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 2:12 AM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to
>> respond.
>>
>> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
>> your experiences."
>>
>>
>> The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do have
>> something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So eg
>> working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same level,
>> upper class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also know these
>> are caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.
>>
>> I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality', something
>> we rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer attracts
>> us because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of God'. This
>> has nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with what Peter
>> describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition toward global
>> social emancipation".
>>
>> This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be 'on
>> our side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.
>>
>> I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book
>> 'Neurobiology and the Development of Morality'. https://www.goodrea
>> ds.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-developme
>> nt-of-human-morality
>>
>> What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met, eg
>> if it is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many
>> western cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world,
>> which can affect its development and produce mental problems such as
>> anxiety and depression later in life. The importance of the parent child
>> bond in mitigating such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings
>> with it, inherited and its own personality, all blend to produce a person's
>> identity, which as you say, may be changed with difficulty.
>>
>> There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the
>> newborn with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the
>> 'natural' tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture.
>> Narvaez makes it clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot
>> be done alone.
>>
>> See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy
>> Birth, Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/
>>
>> Anna
>>
>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen <bob.hau...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>> <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
>>
>>
>> At least related, I think.
>>
>> And, in
>>
>> any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any conventional
>>
>> definition of classes.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in
>> the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs
>> relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I
>> do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination
>> and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,
>> and culture/race.
>>
>> People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting
>> combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles
>> they were enculturated in.
>>
>> And it gets even more complicated than that.
>>
>> I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is
>> discussable without writing a book.
>>
>> Secondly, what DO you do?
>>
>>
>> http://mikorizal.org
>>
>> Maybe I would either belong to or become 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

[Anna Harris]

I find this discussion very interesting, though haven't had time yet to respond.

> "I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
> your experiences."

The traits you are describing run deeper than class, though they do have 
something to do with how we judge some classes better than others. So eg 
working class is more honest, more down to earth, more on the same level, upper 
class more arrogant, more rigid, more bigoted. But we also know these are 
caricatures, and easily reversed in practice.

I think what is here being described has to do with 'morality', something we 
rarely talk about because it borders on religion. Peer to peer attracts us 
because it is nearer to 'all of us being equal in the eyes of God'. This has 
nothing to do with a belief in God, but something to do with what Peter 
describes as "a dialectical and holistic disposition toward global social 
emancipation".

This also connects with Orsan's concern that people who appear to be 'on our 
side' are being used/funded by people with different intentions.

I've recently been reading neurobiologist Darcia Narvaez book 'Neurobiology and 
the Development of Morality'. 
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18378036-neurobiology-and-the-development-of-human-morality

What is clear from her research is that if a baby's needs are not met, eg if it 
is left to cry itself to sleep, which is a common practice in many western 
cultures, it is imprinted with the experience of a hostile world, which can 
affect its development and produce mental problems such as anxiety and 
depression later in life. The importance of the parent child bond in mitigating 
such experiences, and the resources that a baby brings with it, inherited and 
its own personality, all blend to produce a person's identity, which as you 
say, may be changed with difficulty. 

There is a growing movement which sees the necessity of welcoming the newborn 
with positive experiences, to counteract what appears to be the 'natural' 
tendency towards aggression and insecurity in our culture. Narvaez makes it 
clear that this needs to be a community effort, it cannot be done alone.

See the 20 presenters at the upcoming conference at Findhorn, Healthy Birth, 
Healthy Earth.  https://hbhe.co/presenters/

Anna

> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:44, Bob Haugen  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:51 AM, peter waterman
>  wrote:
>> Are these classes a cause of their behaviour or a result thereof?
> 
> At least related, I think.
> 
>> And, in
>> any case, are these 'classes' or 'identities'? I mean in any conventional
>> definition of classes.
> 
> Yeah, it's more complicated. If you believe in intersectionality in
> the bell hooks sense (and I do) and in relationships of domination vs
> relationships of partnership as described recently in this list (and I
> do), then in the capitalist system you got polarities of domination
> and subordination around gender, wealth and relations of production,
> and culture/race.
> 
> People's individual personalities are formed in some interacting
> combination of whichever positions in the two or three of those poles
> they were enculturated in.
> 
> And it gets even more complicated than that.
> 
> I'm just trying to account for some phenomena in some way that is
> discussable without writing a book.
> 
>> Secondly, what DO you do?
> 
> http://mikorizal.org
> 
>> Maybe I would either belong to or become a member
>> of the preferred class.
> 
> I'm not pointing fingers.
> 
> I think your basic traits were formed early and evolved through all of
> your experiences. You can consciously change some of them through
> struggle from and social practice with your comrades, but it ain't
> easy.
> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Bob Haugen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm trying to connect to what I think I perceive in some of Orsan's
>>> posts. This is a different angle on what Orsan has been talking about,
>>> but I think it is connected and I think the subject line might be
>>> closer to the essence.
>>> 
>>> We have recent experience with very different groups that we have
>>> worked with in our "solidarity economy" software experiments. None of
>>> which shall be named. Yet.
>>> 
>>> Some people in some groups have this sense of entitlement, as if we
>>> are their employees or they are our customer, rather than us all being
>>> peers in an open source project.
>>> 
>>> They complain a lot. Occasionally they offer helpful suggestions, but
>>> mostly they like to complain. Sometimes when they do make suggestions,
>>> they are way beyond anything that could be implemented, and if
>>> implemented, they would not be able to use the results because the
>>> results would be beyond their competence.
>>> 
>>> They are arrogant. They assume they our intellectual superiors. They
>>> claim to have abilities that in subsequent events they fail miserably
>>> to demonstrate.
>>> 
>>> We 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] a list of supporters of the UBI

[Anna Harris]

Where is the article to which Michel is referring please?

> On 12 Aug 2016, at 17:46, Bob Haugen  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Michel Bauwens
>  wrote:
>> the rest of the article is stimulating,
> 
> As was this discussion. And Daniel, I did not find most of it boring,
> although I did start to think it wasn't going anywhere except people
> restating their positions over and over.
> 
> Dmytri seemed to be confusing me with several other people. I granted
> a couple of his arguments, and did not argue against the others,
> although I did have the same response to the "plot" angle.
> ___
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour

___
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Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making 
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[P2P-F] Automation

[Anna Harris]

Interesting article by Dmytri Kleiner

"it’s not the unskilled, menial jobs Capitalism automates, but usually the 
skilled ones."

CAPITAL DOESN’T AUTOMATE, IT ENTANGLES.

During Nick Dyer-Witheford’s presentation at #PlatPol11 the issue of Capital 
replacing Labour in production entered the conversation and persisted 
throughout the informal discussions. Would Capitalism automate itself out of 
existence? Probably not. As Nick noted, it’s not the unskilled, menial jobs 
Capitalism automates, but usually the skilled ones. Rather than a future 
characterized by gleaming fully automated robot factories producing untold 
wealth while humans enjoy a life of leisure and pursuit of higher 
consciousness, a more realistic vision of capitalist automation is the panicked 
teenager frantically responding to various beeps and buzzers and flashing 
lights in the kitchen of a fast-food restaurant. 

Up until the 50s only short-order cooks made simple, fast-cooked meals and 
snacks, and the booming diner industry of the era employed many of them. An 
in-demand occupation, good short-order cooks could be hard to come by, and 
needed to be paid relatively well. Insta-Burger King, established in 1953 by 
Matthew Burns and Keith J. Kramer in Jacksonville, Florida developed a way to 
sell burgers cheaper, by eliminating skilled short-order cooks, replacing them 
with unskilled labour through the use of their “Insta-Broiler.” Carl N. 
Karcher, founder of Carl’s Jr, followed suit, replacing his cooks with 
unskilled kitchen workers and automated kitchen equipment. This is not limited 
to the Fast Food industry, from call centers, to airports, from hospitals to 
factories, “Deskilling” has replaced skilled labor by the introduction of 
technologies operated by semiskilled or unskilled workers. Labour continues to 
be at the heart of the value creation proces, it just becomes more and more 
embodied in an authoritarian, monitoring and directing, automated Capital 
super-structure. It is not “Labour” that Capital is replacing, but rather 
“Human Capital.” As Wikipedia describes it “That stock of competences, 
knowledge and personality attributes embodied in the ability to perform labor 
so as to produce economic value.” So rather than automation, perhaps it makes 
more sense to understand this process as the Dehumanization of Capital, the 
embedding of human skill into equipment, and the embedding of human labour into 
automation.

The technologies that are employed in deskilled production are of course 
themselves produced, and their design involves increasingly complex engineering 
that employs highly-skilled workers. Skilled labour is not so much replaced, 
but rather displaced. Moved away from the direct production of consumer goods, 
to the indirect production of capital goods. This also has a depoliticizing 
effect. The bargaining power of the masses of deskilled labour is greatly 
reduced, since they are more replaceable. While the skilled technologists that 
design the software are increasingly separated from the location of direct 
production, where surlus-value is created, and thus are abstracted from the 
appropriation of surplus value.

Technologists, often do not see themselves as exploited labour. Since they do 
not directly toil in the production of consumer goods or services, they often 
feel enabled, not exploited by capital. They produce ideas, designs, maybe 
prototypes, but never final products for sale. The Capitalists allow them to 
realize their technical visions, they don’t directly take anything from them.

At #PlatPol11, during Chris Chesher’s talk he presented a Robot waitress that 
was being marketed at a Korean trade show. It was noted that waitresses are 
minimum wage labourers, and therefore it was highly unlikely that such a 
product would be widely used, since it would be much more expensive to maintain 
a crew of Robot waitresses, then human ones. While the Technology industry may 
like to show off such novelties like robot pets and servants, Chris noted that 
the real money and development was in Military robots, designed to kill.

Capitalism will not automate itself out of existence. It will not eliminate the 
workforce, and it will not even try. What it will do is create a deskilled 
workforce, ever more dependent on capital for the ability to produce, and 
create a divided workforce, that does not share a common proletarian 
consciousness, thus diffusing its class power. And, for when and where 
discontent does bubble up, it will automate the deadly force required to 
repress uprisings. The brutal Enforcement Droid is much more viable than the 
pleasant robot servant.

A system that directs production towards the creation of exchange value has 
many motivations to create control, since capture of scarce resources is at the 
heart of the formation of exchange value, however, it has no motivation to 
create general abundance. Only a workers society, where people produced and 
shared as equals 

Re: [P2P-F] very important treatment of the conditions of success for a post-capitalist transition

[Anna Harris]

Unlike Michel, I found this 'important thesis' unreadable and what I could read 
of it, irrelevant. 'Making sense of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution', 
implying that on its own it doesn't make sense, feels to me an attempt by the 
writer to hitch his wagon to a star.

I personally find Rifkin easy and stimulating to read, with a simple clarity 
that is hard to beat. This thesis only muddies the water by trying to fit him 
in to other theoretical structures, which as far as I can see, do not add 
anything to simple clarity of his original thesis.

Anna

> On 4 Aug 2016, at 16:45, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> dear friends, 
> 
> this is an extraordinary thesis, which I believe Jose Ramos​ alerted me to.
> 
> ostentably an attempt to situate and critique Rifkin, in the context of the 
> macro-historical tradition, it is much more than that ..
> 
> it's an extended treatment of the possiblity for a post-capitalist transition:
> 
> here it is:
> 
> http://research.usc.edu.au/vital/access/services/Download/usc:20301/SOURCE1?view=true
> 
> I have selected excerpts here at 
> https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Making_Sense_of_Rifkin%27s_Third_Industrial_Revolution
> 
> -- 
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org  
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ 
> ___
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[P2P-F] Local food boost

[Anna Harris]

The EU wants to block Romania's 51% local food shift. Who cares?

New law passed unanimously by Romania's parliament that all supermarkets have 
to provide 51% .local food.

https://transitionnetwork.org/blogs/rob-hopkins/2016-07/eu-wants-block-romanias-51-local-food-shift-who-cares

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] An Open Letter to the Fabian Society (was: Re: New models of leadership)

[Anna Harris]

> It often seems to me that the need to justify ones own position as opposed 
> to, rather than in addition to, or including others, comes from the 
> structural imperative to earn a living, which necessitates offering something 
> different and therefore of value in 
> the market place. This is the inevitable concomitant of a capitalist economy 
> which requires people to have something of value which they can sell to earn 
> a living - labour, intellect, care, etc.

Anna


> On 3 Aug 2016, at 21:31, Bob Haugen  wrote:
> 
> One of your comments resonated with me. We have pretty much abandoned
> seeking funding and have also stopped responding to request from other
> people to help them with funding. That leaves holes. But I think we
> gotta figure out how to support our own activities as much as
> possible. I know, not always possible.
> 
> We could try dues...that's what the old Nonpartisan League did and
> they took over North Dakota and created the state bank, among other
> things.
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Orsan  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I was expecting you and Peter would make this warning. And this 
>> argument is about the methodology of analysis, or as Madron put it, and 
>> Fabians would totally agree 'operational complexity management'. I think at 
>> the current point of time complexity managers has more advanced tools and 
>> infrastructures to manage the complexity that  opposition forces added on 
>> the complexity created by the intra-elite struggle. On the one hand there 
>> emerges an alliance of 'delayists' (around next system project, new economy 
>> alliance, de-growth so on) and on the radical left 'acclerationists' are 
>> forming a constellation (around Negri and so on). Some from left like 
>> Michael Aalbert, and parecon, David Harvey and rabel cities, negrists or 
>> cognitive captalists 'platform cooperatvism', Eric Olin Wright and real 
>> Utopias.. are counted in the next system alliance. On the driving seat, as 
>> John Restakis prompted sometimes ago, there are networks which are funded by 
>> OAK foundation of UK Royal-state, Rockefe
> llar, Ford, Soros foundation so on. These formed a founder alliance called 
> Edge Funders, whom Michel thinks are radicals. They fund all sort of spaces, 
> from WSF, to Left Forum, from the events Michel and Pat mentioned, to Ripess 
> -Synergia people (social solidarity economy discourse), from TNI to all sort 
> of movement building hubs. Yes There are contradictions every where, there is 
> a chaos too, but also there are some orders and regularities that are telling 
> us something, and most worrisome is no one is talking about with the fear of 
> not getting any funding and suffer economically. That state of 'being 
> determines the consciousness'. The more no one is willing to talk about these 
> openly the more things go worse. That is all I wanted to say..
>> 
>> Orsan
>> 
>>> On 3 aug. 2016, at 22:03, Bob Haugen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I snipped the previous contents, they were overloading my email
>>> viewer. And deleted the WSF from the distro list so they stop
>>> complaining at me.
>>> 
>>> Dear Orsan, I agree that alliances with aspects of the powers-that-be
>>> pose dangers. And co-optation happens. Fortunately, they don't want to
>>> ally with me anyway, otherwise I would need to thread some of those
>>> needles.
>>> 
>>> I would, however, repost what I understood from Peter's message. If we
>>> are dialectical materialists, we gotta do a dialectical analysis of
>>> all these forces and their contradictions and also and maybe
>>> especially their internal contradictions.
>>> 
>>> And even after the revolution or transformation or whatever, there
>>> will still be contradictions. That's life.
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[P2P-F] Agroecology

[Anna Harris]

This recent article. 
https://chssachetan.wordpress.com/2016/08/01/four-comments-on-indias-green-revolution-as-the-focus-shifts-to-africa/

cites this one below, which though from over 3 years ago, is well worth reading



https://oecotextiles.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/food-mythbusters-do-we-really-need-industrial-agriculture-to-feed-the-world/

https://oecotextiles.wordpress.com/category/green-revolution/___
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] New models of leadership

[Anna Harris]

I've read other MP's experiences with Corbyn where they feel disappointed and 
let down, so this doesn't surprise me. They are on Facebook and Twitter. No 
secret that he is not a good leader, not much of a team player. He is probably 
also on a steep learning curve, and has had to withstand such a battering 
during these few weeks that I would say it is impossible to judge him on his 
record over this time. 

But it is not up to us to assess him, to be worried, or concerned that he is 
not 'up to the job'. In my opinion anyone in that position can be pulled to 
pieces quite easily. He is just a human being, and that is how up to now, he 
presents himself. We don't need him to be more than that. 

 We know that he comes over as a different type of politician, and that he has 
a lot of popular support. Those are significant qualities. The most we can hope 
is to surround him with supporters like Madron who could really help him go in 
the direction he wants to go, but probably doesn't have much idea how to make 
it happen.  

Anna

> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:52, Pat Conaty <pat.commonfutu...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> 
> Hi Anna
> 
> Michel and I are discussing these matters with other colleagues. A close 
> colleague, Henry Tam, who was a senior civil servant
> under Labour before 2010 and set up a creative Empowerment Fund for 
> grassroots projects. This did lots of good work. 
> 
> He has been hopeful about Corbyn. But having seen at first hand politicians 
> at their worst and best he now has his concerns.
> 
> He shared this speech a few days ago from a Labour MP and active trade 
> unionist. She highlights some things that Gary Younge raised his worries 
> about.
> 
> http://www.liliangreenwood.co.uk/lilian_s_speech_to_nottingham_south_labour_party_members
> 
> Pat
> 
> 
>> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:44, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for these links Pat, and any others you think would be helpful.
>> 
>> Anna
>> 
>>> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:32, Pat Conaty <pat.commonfutu...@phonecoop.coop> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michel
>>> 
>>> Not sure about the internal politics within the team. A number left in the 
>>> team are good experts.
>>> 
>>> But my point is that several elements have to be aligned. A new accountable 
>>> leadership style for sure as the article you shared makes clear.
>>> Then a creative use of complexity theory in practice.
>>> 
>>> But also if the theory of new economics is not sound then this impacts on 
>>> the programmes. Not due to leadership but because of a faulty understanding 
>>> and analysis.
>>> 
>>> For example Richard Murphy from the UK Tax Justice Network was not selected 
>>> to be in the Corbyn advice team whereas last summer he was guiding Corbyn
>>> on Peoples QE that was popular with people in the Labour party who voted 
>>> for Corbyn. Since then these ideas have been not on the agenda and what 
>>> Ingham calls for
>>> is not far removed from Murphy’s thinking and guidance.
>>> 
>>> All the best
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>>> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:20, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> thanks for the details Pat,
>>>> 
>>>> I remember critiques that Jeremy was not a good listener and did not work 
>>>> well with his advisory team,
>>>> 
>>>> Michel
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Pat Conaty 
>>>>> <pat.commonfutu...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Michel
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a good piece on complexity theory and participative politics that 
>>>>> Anna Harris has shared. As I have mentioned, this way forward is great 
>>>>> and also the
>>>>> work of Stafford Beer on viable systems theory for intensifying 
>>>>> co-operative forms of democracy. But I only wish Corbyn was moving in this
>>>>> direction. Not questioning his good will to do so and his integrity of 
>>>>> course but little evidence of this yet emerging. See the relatively 
>>>>> recent Gary Younge article below when there
>>>>> were three leaders in the race for Labour party leader, now just Smith 
>>>>> and Corbyn.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-critics-destroying-labour-party-members
>>>>> 
>>>>> But in addition to complexity management and new forms of leadership, 
>>>>> 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] New models of leadership

[Anna Harris]

Thanks for these links Pat, and any others you think would be helpful.

Anna

> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:32, Pat Conaty <pat.commonfutu...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> 
> Michel
> 
> Not sure about the internal politics within the team. A number left in the 
> team are good experts.
> 
> But my point is that several elements have to be aligned. A new accountable 
> leadership style for sure as the article you shared makes clear.
> Then a creative use of complexity theory in practice.
> 
> But also if the theory of new economics is not sound then this impacts on the 
> programmes. Not due to leadership but because of a faulty understanding and 
> analysis.
> 
> For example Richard Murphy from the UK Tax Justice Network was not selected 
> to be in the Corbyn advice team whereas last summer he was guiding Corbyn
> on Peoples QE that was popular with people in the Labour party who voted for 
> Corbyn. Since then these ideas have been not on the agenda and what Ingham 
> calls for
> is not far removed from Murphy’s thinking and guidance.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Pat
> 
>> On 1 Aug 2016, at 17:20, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> 
>> thanks for the details Pat,
>> 
>> I remember critiques that Jeremy was not a good listener and did not work 
>> well with his advisory team,
>> 
>> Michel
>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Pat Conaty 
>>> <pat.commonfutu...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>> Hi Michel
>>> 
>>> This is a good piece on complexity theory and participative politics that 
>>> Anna Harris has shared. As I have mentioned, this way forward is great and 
>>> also the
>>> work of Stafford Beer on viable systems theory for intensifying 
>>> co-operative forms of democracy. But I only wish Corbyn was moving in this
>>> direction. Not questioning his good will to do so and his integrity of 
>>> course but little evidence of this yet emerging. See the relatively recent 
>>> Gary Younge article below when there
>>> were three leaders in the race for Labour party leader, now just Smith and 
>>> Corbyn.
>>> 
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-critics-destroying-labour-party-members
>>> 
>>> But in addition to complexity management and new forms of leadership, there 
>>> is the need for a deeper understanding of economics and what is money. This 
>>> question is the
>>> Elephant in the room as Geoffrey Ingham explained and that all socialists 
>>> need to get to grips with. The Economic Advisory Committee advising
>>> Corbyn are all left of centre economists but even Piketty and Stiglitz have 
>>> a poor analysis of What is money as Ingham highlights below. 
>>> 
>>> https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/geoffrey-ingham/whose-money-is-it
>>> 
>>> Corbyn and other anti-austerity politicians thus lacks guidance on this 
>>> question that is crucial for developing alternative economic strategies.
>>> 
>>> Ingham is a professor at Cambridge. He is a socialist and in his book, The 
>>> Nature of Money, he shows that unfortunately Marx got the money question 
>>> wrong. Despite some great insights, fundamentally Marx concluded that money 
>>> was a commodity. He took this from Aristotle. The real truth is that it is 
>>> not a commodity but a social technology as David Graeber has shown.
>>> 
>>> However as Ingham observes, this errant view of Marx has sent most of the 
>>> left down the wrong road to understand money and hence most of the left is 
>>> blind on this question. From a theoretical perspective this is a fatal 
>>> flaw. Ingham argues so well that we need to revisit the What is money 
>>> debates from the 1920s and folk like Gesell and also Douglas and social 
>>> credit ideas as these show where the real answers are.  Ingham calls for a 
>>> public social partnership on monetary and banking reform to replace the 
>>> oppressive and toxic public private partnership destroying both society and 
>>> ecology and leading us in to relentless wars defending geopolitical turf 
>>> over oil and other resources.
>>> 
>>> All the best
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 1 Aug 2016, at 09:16, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> dear Pat, has anything been written on the contrary view that was reported 
>>>> on in that other discussion

[P2P-F] New models of leadership

[Anna Harris]

The Corbyn Model of Leadership
Of all the people currently in leadership positions in a major political party 
anywhere in the world, Jeremy Corbyn is the only one who shows the potential of 
being a leader who could begin to manage successfully the complex problems that 
all of our societies have to face in the coming decades.

Brilliant article, first I've seen really understanding what Corbyn is trying 
to do.

https://medium.com/@ROY_MADRON/the-corbyn-model-of-leadership-a7a006405f27#.hyj8ckaw2
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Your video-interview - Conference "Shaping the new world of work"

[Anna Harris]

Thank you for this, as usual very clear and concise. Anna

> On 8 Jul 2016, at 04:34, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> 
> the following was taped (one minute) during my intervention at the European 
> Trade Union Congress on 29/6
> 
> 
> Dear Mr. Bauwens,
> 
>  
> 
> We would like to thank you very much for making last week’s Conference 
> "Shaping the new world of work" a success.
> 
>  
> 
> You can find hereunder the link to your video-interview.
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uIS9LkMWzk
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Denis Grégoire
> 
> Communication Officer
> 
> HesaMag editor
> 
>  
> 
> dgrego...@etui.org
> 
> Direct line: + 32 (0) 2 224 05 52
> 
>  
> 
> European
> 
> Trade Union Institute
> 
> Bd du Roi Albert II, 5
> 
> 1210 Brussels
> 
> Belgium
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org  
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ 
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] questions re funding of p2p value conference

[Anna Harris]

I think I understand the distinction Orsan is trying to make between a movement 
which is headed by experts in the field, and one which consciously avoids 
leaders, by trying to provide conditions where as far as possible people can be 
treated as equals. I also understand the difficulties in a 'transitional' 
situation where people attempt to earn a living based on their expertise, which 
is seen to have some financial value, by speaking, writing articles, 
consequently gaining recognition and status, which aids them in earning. 

I don't see a resolution to this except to become as aware as possible of how 
defensive we might feel, when called to account for exploiting publicity to our 
own advantage. 

Anna

> On 5 Jul 2016, at 18:26, Orsan Senalp  wrote:
> 
> 
> I am uncomfortable, especially I really like you in person but also 
> theoretician; I even can see you as sort of a theoretical mentor; but like 
> Marx or Lenin; not as political organizer or a leader; you claimed once (last 
> year) not to involve in politics of this, but now you are in the center of 
> politics.. 
> 
> I am really glad now, after three years, not to accept your offer to be 
> 'labour person' of p2p foundation; as you formulated then. I really think and 
> believe, autonomy and egalitarianism are the keys, for any alternative world 
> vision to be successful; and labour and other commons to be emancipated. 
> 
> Yours, 
> Orsan
> 
> 
> 
> On 05 Jul 2016, at 19:11, Orsan  wrote:
> 
> 
> ___
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[P2P-F] Uncovering the Labour Coup

[Anna Harris]

Detailed reporting of the names and connections behind the attempt to oust 
Corbyn!

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/
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[P2P-F] Fwd: The War on Weed Is Winding Down, But Will Monsanto/Bayer Be the Winner?

[Anna Harris]

> From: Ellen Brown 
> Date: 25 June 2016 at 18:02:55 BST
> To: 
> Subject: The War on Weed Is Winding Down, But Will Monsanto/Bayer Be the 
> Winner?
> Reply-To: Ellen Brown 
> 
> Hi, here is my latest article, posted on Global Research -- 
> The War on Weed Is Winding Down, 
> But Will Monsanto/Bayer Be the Winner?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Ellen 
> http://EllenBrown.com
> http://PublicBankingInstitute.org
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> Unsubscribe a...@shsh.co.uk from this list.
> 
> Update your profile 
>  
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [commoning] A note on the post-capitalist strategy of the P2P Foundation

[Anna Harris]

Yes Michel, there is a choice to be made, each of us has to decide where to put 
our energy. That still does not imply that there can only be one theoretical 
framework, and thus constant argument about which is 'top dog'.

When you start with a concept of a limited energy supply (the scarcity culture 
with which we are all familiar) then it must seem that you cannot let anyone 
else grab that energy. In actual fact it doesn't work that way. When we can 
combine with others who appear to be opposed to what we are proposing, energy 
abounds. I cannot prove this to you scientifically, it seems paradoxical but it 
is my experience.

That is why collaboration is more sustainable than competition. This is 
prefiguring the new culture of abundance.
> Jacob too says, 'first we must convince people in order to create a 
> collective will for this purpose that leads to new practices.'
> 
He comes from the same mindset. It is that mindset which needs to change to 
prefigure the new sustainable culture to which we aspire.

Anna


On 17 Jun 2016, at 23:08, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

> except you cannot ever institute a basic unconditional income outside of the 
> collective institution that is the state .. so there is a choice to be made, 
> where do you put your energy ... achieving the basic income would require 
> significant social mobilization and energy.
> 
> continuing to work on the commons economy on the other hand, is something we 
> can, and even must do, in the context of increasing market and state failure,
> 
> Michel
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> All of these proposals are not intrinsically opposed to each other. They can 
>> all run, indeed should run alongside each other. These are all possible 
>> solutions. Why waste time arguing which one is better? Being creative means 
>> using all of them at different times, in different circumstances. History 
>> cannot prove to us that what failed before will not at some future date be 
>> successful. We may see trends now, but we cannot predict with certainty that 
>> these will become strong enough to replace the current capital system, or 
>> that elites will give up their power without violent resistance.
>> 
>> Anna
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Jun 2016, at 02:25, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree Ellen that this is also a very important third aspect, but also 
>>> requires major political and social power to achieve it. The present land 
>>> and water commons are declining rather than becoming stronger.
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Ellen Friedman <el...@ellenfriedman.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> I think Jakob speaks to something I noticed after reading Michel’s 
>>>> original piece that began this discussion. Michel wrote, "Overcoming the 
>>>> capitalist form of the market, means interfering in capital accumulation. 
>>>> This can and must be done in two ways.” 
>>>> 
>>>> There’s a third way that’s essential to interfering with capital 
>>>> accumulation. This third way is to liberate the land, waters and all life. 
>>>> The life blood of capitalism is the living planet. Privatization of the 
>>>> land, water and all life must end. Land and water must be liberated from 
>>>> the social construct of property. Life should never be property. 
>>>> 
>>>> One way I see this happening is by creating a polycentric system of 
>>>> planetary commons trusts formed around ecosystems so they can be stewarded 
>>>> both locally and globally. In order to right the wrong of dispossession 
>>>> and create reparations, local stewardship could be led by indigenous 
>>>> peoples. Once the living planet is in a trust, corporations and 
>>>> governments should be charged rent for using the land, water, minerals and 
>>>> more. This would end externalization of costs. The trusts could set limits 
>>>> on what is taken in order to restore the planet to health and steward the 
>>>> living land and waters in perpetuity. Funds raised in this way could 
>>>> provide the means for planetary restoration and a basic income for humans.
>>>> 
>>>> There’s a movement to create a fifth missing international crime against 
>>>> peace- ecocide. Corporations who have committed ecocide should be 
>>>> prosecuted, their assets seized and their charters revoked. Seized assets 
>>>> could be used to remediate the harm and provide additi

[P2P-F] Hunting, Adaptive Reuse

[Anna Harris]

What an inspiring vision, with a nod to John Holloway's Cracks in Capitalism. 
Its the creativity that comes when we manage to lift our heads from the 
everyday drudge of what appears to be 'normal'.

I live in a small town and have been part of a project for the past 4 years 
which arose out  of a Transition Town 'Health and Well Being' group, which has 
long since disappeared. Every Friday we cook soup and provide a community space 
for people to come together. Local shops generously provide the ingredients. It 
has taken different forms over the years, volunteers have come and gone, some 
have had ambitions to become a 'constituted' group, apply for funding, expand 
to more days. Others have wanted to be more health conscious, or more 
organised, with a coordinator. When the place we used was flooded out just 
after Xmas, we were taken in by the Methodist church. Our volunteers generally 
agree that though there is not a huge need- we don't have queues of homeless 
and hungry - we really enjoy working together. And while it in no way 
challenges the system, probably helps prop it up, maybe we are prefiguring the 
breakdown of existing structures.

Anna

> On Jun 17, 2016 3:39 PM, "Eric Hunting" < @gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was a child I was particularly fascinated with books like Stuart 
> Little, The Borrowers, classic fairy tales, The Secret of NIMH, The Rescuers, 
> and the like. Stories of little creatures that had created secret, hidden, 
> civilizations within the overlooked and forgotten interstitial spaces of our 
> built habitat, repurposing the detritus of our own civilization. In cartoons 
> mice are always repurposing our misplaced stuff into some model of casual 
> suburban living on their scale. Thimbles become sinks and ottomans. Thread 
> spools become various kinds of furniture. Xmas lights become track lighting. 
> Vast communities carrying on their daily routine unseen in the spaces behind 
> walls, under floors, in the forgotten sealed-up space created as we built up 
> our own infrastructures. Often they would have their own independent 
> infrastructures. They would create miniature railways from toys, use pigeons 
> as an airline, scavenge wiring and electronics parts from our cast-off 
> consumer junk and create their own telegraph, telephone, and radio networks, 
> all operating independently and in parallel to our own.
> 
> Then, as I got older, I moved on to SciFi but found similar themes. There was 
> Arthur C. Clarke's Rama; a vast, ancient, alien spacecraft housing a rotating 
> space colony. Its creators, purpose, and destination unknown, its complex 
> enigmatic systems and robots   running on their own, Rama became the host 
> of multiple species who simply boarded and setup shop within its vast space 
> when it passed through their solar systems. They could live well by simply 
> not drawing the attention of the Raman systems, exploiting the spaces the 
> robots seemed to ignore, learning and exploiting their routine patterns of 
> activity and behavior. Then there was Larry Niven's Ringworld. Another vast 
> alien construction whose creator's original civilization collapsed, leaving 
> it running on its own   automated systems as they reverted to more 
> primitive, fractured, societies and came to think of the ring as some natural 
> or divine phenomenon. 
> As I began to study Post-Industrial futurism I encountered Ken Isaacs' and 
> the Urban Nomads of the late '60s and '70s. This brief movement was based on 
> the expectation of a new youth movement emerging amidst the slow collapse of 
> the Industrial Age to repurpose the urban and industrial detritus to 
> facilitate a mobile lifestyle. It's from this we got the 'upcycling' craze, 
> Lofting, Cargotecture, and the High-Tech design movement based on the 
> repurposing of industrial goods, hardware, and cast-offs in a domestic 
> context. Back in that middle third of the century futurists seemed quite 
> convinced of an imminent and dramatic collapse of corporate capitalism, its 
> economics, and institutions as suggested by the civil unrest erupting at the 
> time, though this prediction would prove premature. The dinosaurs had a few 
> last tricks up their sleeves and the oft-predicted era of Total Automation 
> was still a ways off. Later, I encountered Alex Steffan's and Cory Doctorow's 
> notion of Outquisition. They imagined a near future where the growth of 
> intentional communities in the late 20th century had come to shelter, like 
> cloisters, a counter-cultural civilization in the midst of the mainstream 
> culture and that this had become quite self-sufficient in its cultivation of 
> sustainable technologies ignored or suppressed by the dominant culture. And 
> as that dominant culture began to incrementally fail from its inherent 
> unsustainability, abandoning one community after another to states of crisis, 
> evangelistic missionaries, of a sort, would emerge from these cloistered 
> 

[P2P-F] Understanding the origins of Human Morality

[Anna Harris]

Fascinating interview with Darcia Narvaez about her new book 'Neurobiology and 
the Development of Human Morality'. She links in a very convincing way 
parenting practices with the state of society and our planet, finally from my 
point of view connecting child rearing practices within the family, generally 
regarded as having little significance beyond the individual's psychopathology, 
with the inhumanity and destructiveness of our culture.

http://www.opednews.com/Podcast/Darcia-Narvaez-Morality-s-by-Rob-Kall-Babies_Bottom-up_Bottom-up-Top-Down_Brain-160415-327.html

Anna

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[P2P-F] Tata steel a taste of things to come?

[Anna Harris]

http://www.aworldtowin.net/blog/steels-collapse-is-the-crisis-of-the-capitalist-system-itself.html

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Looking the Basic Income Gift Horse in the Mouth

[Anna Harris]

Thank you for this Peter. It is clear that every tool can be turned to the 
service of capitalist austerity. Locally to me we have seen the rise of Junk 
Food Projects, with the admirable aim of sourcing waste food to feed hungry 
people. But it ends up being middle class do-gooders papering over the cracks 
in the system so supporting its existence rather than challenging it: the 
modern version of the 19th Century charity system. Meanwhile the waste food is 
still imported from low cost areas overseas, with appalling working conditions, 
creating pollution and consuming local scarce resources. 

Anna

> On 4 Apr 2016, at 07:43, peter waterman  wrote:
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Sid Shniad 
> Date: Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 4:31 AM
> Subject: Looking the Basic Income Gift Horse in the Mouth
> To: 
> 
> 
> http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1241.php#continue
> 
> The   B u l l e t • Socialist Project • E-Bulletin No. 1241 • April 1, 2016
> 
> Looking the Basic Income Gift Horse in the Mouth
> 
> John Clarke
> 
> 
> 
> Both the Trudeau Liberals in Ottawa and the Wynne Government at Queen's Park 
> in Toronto have been making noises of late on the subject of Basic Income. 
> The last Ontario Budget, in fact, declared an intention to carry out a pilot 
> project in a community still to be announced. While no clear details are yet 
> available, it is very likely that we will soon be dealing with a practical 
> initiative that we will have to respond to. We will have to consider how we 
> view the possibility of the Liberals moving in the direction of a Basic 
> Income system.
> 
> After decades of intensifying austerity and the erosion of systems of income 
> support, with social assistance in Ontario now providing such wretchedly 
> inadequate benefits that people are unable to feed themselves properly and 
> retain their housing, the notion of a basic level of income that all are 
> entitled to can't fail to generate a level of interest and raise some hopes. 
> However, I am convinced that a good hard look in the mouth of this particular 
> gift horse is well advised. What are the different notions of how a Basic 
> Income system might work? Why are governments now considering it more 
> seriously? What form would it be likely to take in the present economic and 
> political context?
> 
> Looking Deeper Into the Gift Horse
> 
> As soon as you start to look into the question of Basic Income or, as it was 
> often called in the past, Guaranteed Annual Income (GAI), you are immediately 
> struck by the ease and enthusiasm with which free market thinkers and 
> warriors of the neoliberal order have embraced the concept. From Milton 
> Friedman to Charles Murray, the idea has found warm support on the political 
> right. There are some clear and obvious reasons why this is so. Firstly, the 
> very idea of a basic level of income is about establishing a floor and right 
> wing proponents are confident they can locate it in the basement. A low and 
> inadequate social minimum seems to them a great way of folding in existing, 
> relatively adequate programs so as to, precisely, drive people into deeper 
> poverty.
> 
> Another attraction offered by a low universal payment to those who take the 
> side of the capitalists is the potential role it could play in depressing 
> wages. In a recent contribution to the Union Research blog on the issue of 
> Basic Income, Toby Sanger, draws attention to the Speenhamland System, a wage 
> supplement arrangement put in place under the English Poor Laws between 
> 1795-1834, and the role it played in driving down wages. Low wage paying 
> employers could rely on the tax base to pay their workers wages and employers 
> who had been paying higher wages were under an incentive to lower them in 
> order to obtain the same benefit. In the present context of vastly expanding 
> low wage precarious work, this danger is one that should not be 
> underestimated.
> 
> The right wing Basic Income agenda, however, sets its sights on more than 
> cutting benefit levels for people in poverty and depressing the wages of the 
> lowest paid workers. Potentially, it is a means to gut social programs and to 
> decimate the workforce that delivers them. The notion is to use the basic 
> payment to advance the pace of privatization enormously. This kind of payment 
> would replace public services and all who received it would become customers 
> shopping for their social needs in the private market. Not just income 
> support systems, but public housing, healthcare, education and transportation 
> are threatened by the parsimonious universal payment envisaged by free market 
> Basic Income.
> 
> A Different Kind of Basic Income?
> 
> Of course, the political right's version of a system of basic social payments 
> is countered by those with more progressive concepts. There is a notion of 
> Basic Income that stresses income 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [chinaconcern] FW: A New Quarterly on Chinese Labour, Civil Society, and Rights - ISSUE 1 - peterwaterman1...@gmail.com - Gmail

[Anna Harris]

I can't open it Peter. It just goes to Google mail.

Just a comment about how the funding is used: I wanted to look at the magazine 
to see whether it gave a fair picture. Now that is obviously a judgement call 
on my part, particularly as a I know very little about what goes on in China, 
except what is printed in the western press which tends to be fairly hostile. 
But I think it is possible to tell whether it is being used to discredit 
Chinese government by focussing on the repressive measures, etc. Or really 
giving information about working conditions in China. If it is the former, 
which I suspect, then this funding is being used probably in the way it was 
intended, ie. it is being provided by some large corporations to discredit 
Chinese govt. rather than being a way to connect and collaborate with workers 
in China.

Xx

> On 5 Apr 2016, at 11:40, Peter Waterman  wrote:
> 
> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/153e5458bca6a1df
> ___
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour

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[P2P-F] John Pilger in Marshall Islands, on the brink of war

[Anna Harris]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/a-world-war-has-begun-break-the-silence-

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [commoning] Global Marshall Plan and the Global Commons Rising: Who will be hacking who towards, at, around and beyond Montreal (or beyond the WSF in general)

[Anna Harris]

This is a very serious accusation you are making Orsan, and it seems to be 
about the sincerity of those who are in influential positions. Being in 
'influential positions' is synonymous with large sums of money being involved. 
Large sums of money are seen by you, and David Horowitz, (I listened briefly to 
his video) as indicating 'dirty' money. He states that 'progressive' groups 
have much more money at their disposal than conservative groups. And are 
therefore responsible for the problems the US/world faces. 

You Orsan, seem to have the same belief system: that the 'ruling classes', 
because they control large sums of money, are the ones responsible for the 
problems we face. And anyone associating themselves with that group are serving 
the interests of a small elite, and therefore cannot be sincere in their 
professed aim to serve the people as a whole, as in supporting a commons 
movement.

I see that this passion to seek out the enemy - the 'axis of evil', appeals to 
a need for simple solutions. Rage and frustration at the worsening situation 
can lead us to attack each other. And surely no-one's sincerity is above 
reproach, and all money is dirty money. So you will always find material for 
your rage. But emphasising these divisions will not build the bottom up 
emancipatory movement you are longing for. We need to find ways of connecting 
with people, to find our common humanity which lies beyond the apparent 
dichotomy.

Anna

> On 6 Mar 2016, at 17:52, Orsan  wrote:
> 
> James, thank you for your answer, though we can never know the details of 
> such high level interactions, exactly this makes it highly problematic. 
> 
> Since I have never had the chance to get so close to princes, princesses, 
> presidents, CEOs, so on and so first I can only have certain assumptions 
> about your environment, relationships with elements of what we call ruling 
> classes. In your case this certain group or class, fraction, can only be 
> represented by certain terms like transnational 'productive capital' agency, 
> or their historical block. This makes you on the eyes looking at this 
> conversation from progressive, left side at most a good agent of the 'left'. 
> This is the best case for you, but even this has made very degenerative 
> impact on the ethics of the struggles for the good in general. 
> 
> you might ask, how; although I am sure you know well what I mean; I will try 
> to demonstrate with one example what these kind of under cover relationships 
> knitted with state and corporate wealth and from top down.  
> 
> I would not even go Jones the truth seeker everybody knows about, but this 
> (probably a cousin of Sara Horowitz of Free Lancers Union) guy studied and 
> delivered a systemic network analysis would definitely feed in extreme right 
> wing success in the US, we have been watching some how with out any surprise: 
> I am talking about David Horowitz and his  
> http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/default.asp
> 
> Here is a video entry from him: 
> http://youtu.be/gghYKKwkWz4
> And one of his terrible performances: 
> http://youtu.be/8q6afrpaMck
> 
> This is not to justify my claims at all, but just to share an example of 
> outcome for such hidden affairs and interactions that infects progressive 
> politics, and divides them actually- these things are never being talked 
> about openly because of the money relations -you have also involved- hidden 
> in the dark. 
> 
> Since your position is interlocking left and progressive transformative 
> powers to a global capitalist agenda (from where we look it appears as this - 
> even though in reality you might claim injecting left wing agenda to global 
> capitalist circles) and since you personally is an active class agency of 
> capital in this context no one can criticize what you have done. You have 
> done what you had to do. 
> 
> Big question is addressed here to those who needed to be accountable to the 
> rest of the people in these lists, as well as broader 98%; since the impact 
> their action has been can not be measurable. In order to provide really 
> ethically clean ground for alternative, associated, commons, peer, or 
> solidarity, economy, or New Economy, or next economy, what ever; the left and 
> progressives has to develop their own open power and accountability maps 
> themselves; better then having conservative option...  
> 
> Naming Silke since she gave the first reaction -to probably your blog post 
> taken from GMP blog. Silke, shares a seat in 'Commons Strategies Club' (made 
> up three white person from north initially later added a Latin American 
> representative to balance the rest); with David Bolier and Michel Bauwens, 
> Silke had been playing a very important second tier role towards the 
> grassrootization of the common's vision -as it was negotiated at a higher 
> state you have introduced to them as you claim; so I will go continue on that 
> thread. 
> 
> So as for the 

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: " emotion as a resource akin to guns and money " in Post-Cold War Interventions and Conflicts

[Anna Harris]

"we may better understand the patterns, forms, and escalation of violence and 
thus why interventions often fail even despite a heavy foreign presence. "

Perhaps it should read "often fail because of a heavy foreign presence"

Anna

> On 2 Jan 2016, at 09:16, Michel Bauwens  wrote:
> 
> we may better understand the patterns, forms, and escalation of violence and 
> thus why interventions often fail even despite a heavy foreign presence. "

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[P2P-F] Two interesting articles from Real-World Economics

[Anna Harris]

Two interesting articles from Real-World Economics
real-world economics review, issue no. 73 


Mass migration and border policy

Herman Daly [University of Maryland, USA]

http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue73/Daly73.pdf



Paul Mason’s PostCapitalism 

Donald Gillies  

http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue73/Gillies73.pdf






 
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[P2P-F] Fwd: 16th BIEN Congress (2016) - Call for papers

[Anna Harris]

-- Forwarded message --
From: "BIEN" 
Date: Dec 4, 2015 9:49 PM
Subject: 16th BIEN Congress (2016) - Call for papers
To: 
Cc:

16th BIEN Congress, Seoul 2016 View this email in your browser

16th
BIEN Congress, Seoul 2016
*CALL FOR PAPERS*

*16th BIEN Congress, Seoul*7–9 July 2016 *Korean Basic Income Week   *4–10
July 2016



Today the basic income attracts the public attention as a positive
alternative beyond an idea. We can see it as important political parties in
Europe have adopted the unconditional basic income as a policy objective.
One reason for the increased public attention is that many people are
coming to believe that the existing system is unsustainable in face of
economic and ecological crises. Under these circumstances, we will discuss
a more concrete and positive alternative under the theme of Social and
Ecological Transformation and Basic Income.

The discussion will be around the topics below.



♦ Economic models of post neoliberalism and the position and role of basic
income in them

♦ The role of basic income in pursuit of expanding democracy in the
political arena and in society as a whole

♦ The role of basic income in the transition to an ecological society and
the accompanying cultural society

♦ The role of basic income in the transformation from the work-based
society, presuming it as an element of the de-commodification of labor force

♦ The ear of the precariat and basic income

♦ The role of basic income in enhancing gender equality

♦ Basic income as a tool for the resolution of the youth, unemployment
problem

♦ Evaluation and prospect of various pilot projects

♦ Post-human prospects and basic income



The above topics are not intended to limit the boundaries, but to set as
references for a broader discussion. We invite all interested individuals
and groups to participate. Those who want to present should submit
abstracts(up to one page in A4 in Korean or 300 words in English) to
bien2016.callforpap...@gmail.com by January 31st 2016.

We are happy to inform you that seven keynote speakers will attend the
congress and some more keynote speakers could be with us. Seven keynote
speakers are: Louise Haagh (York University, England), Yamamori Toru
(Doshisha University, Japan), Jan Otto Andersson (ÅboAkademi University,
Finland), SarathDavala (India), Minister and Bishop ZephaniaKameeta
(Namibia), Zhiyuan Cui (Tsinghua University, China) and Gonzalo Hernandez
Licona (Mexico).

Korean Basic Income Week will be held along with the 16th BIEN congress. We
also invite all interested individuals and groups to participate in this
event which will be comprised of concerts, film-screenings, performances
and campaigns. Those who want to give proposals for Basic Income Week
should submit them to bien2016.callforpap...@gmail.com by January 31st 2016.

Programs of the congress and Basic Income Week will be compiled from all
submissions and proposals by March 31st 2016. We will send a message to all
those who have made a submission shortly afterwards. If you have any
question, please contact us at bien2016.callforpap...@gmail.com.

Finally, we will run a day-care center for children under 8 for the
participants with to use. Contact us at cont...@bien2016.org please.

Kind Regards,



Local Organizing Committee of the 16th BIEN congress, Seoul

Executive Committee of Basic Income Week

Read more here »

[image: Facebook]

Facebook

[image:
Twitter]

Twitter

[image:
http://www.basicincome.org/]

http://www.basicincome.org/

[image:
Google Plus]

Google
Plus

[image:
YouTube]

YouTube

*Copyright
© 2015 BIEN Newsflash, All rights 

[P2P-F] Fwd: [climate trade union] Corbyn and Klein speaking in Paris

[Anna Harris]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Jonathan 
> Date: 23 November 2015 at 14:58:17 GMT
> To: ccctu ccctu 
> Subject: [climate trade union] Corbyn and Klein speaking in Paris
> Reply-To: findjonat...@hotmail.com
> 
> 
>  Jeremy Corbyn and Naomi Klein will be speaking in Paris on Monday 7 December 
> at an event co-organised by Global Climate Jobs (inluding Campaign against 
> Climate Change). They will be talking about trade unions and climate change. 
> Tickets are free, but you have to register in advance, and the hall only hols 
> 800. 
> 
> The details are here: 
> https://globalclimatejobs.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/naomi-klein-and-jeremy-corbyn-in-paris/
> 
> Please spread the word widely, particularly to trade unionists who might be 
> in Paris.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Climate Trade Union" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to climate-change-trade-union-network+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to 
> climate-change-trade-union-netw...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/climate-change-trade-union-network.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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[P2P-F] Braungart on Circular Economy

[Anna Harris]

https://www.thinkdif.co/headliners/michael-braungart

This recording of the originator of 'Cradle to Cradle' design, at the Circular 
Economy Disruptive Innovation Fest. A new approach to waste and production. 
Worth listening to.

Less bad is not better. It's still bad. Toxic chemicals in everyday products.
"Can I burn it in my fireplace, put it in my compost, or will you take it 
back?" No waste, everything a nutrient

Anna
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[P2P-F] Fwd: Inventing the Future

[Anna Harris]

Jakob received the e-book. So I can send to anyone else who wants a copy


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Jakob Rigi" <ri...@ceu.edu>
> Date: 9 November 2015 at 15:37:12 GMT
> To: <a...@shsh.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Inventing the Future
> 
> Hi Anna,
> I received it, thanks.  But my computer does not open it. Do I need a special 
> software for opening it?
> best
> Jakob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>> Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> 11/09/15 3:53 PM >>>
> I have sent it again, please let me know, if/when you receive it.
> 
> Anna
> 
> > On 9 Nov 2015, at 13:34, Jakob Rigi <ri...@ceu.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Anna,
> > Thanks but I did not receive it.
> > Best
> > Jakob
> >>>> Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> 11/09/15 12:43 PM >>>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Jakob, 
> > 
> > I just sent you the e-book by email. Let me know if it arrives.
> > 
> > Best Anna
> > 
> 

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Robin Murray on Post-Post-Fordism

[Anna Harris]

on, The Freelancers Union, The New School 
>> University Student Senate, The Workers Lab, IG Metal, Institute for the 
>> Future, Demand Progress, Internet and Society, The Robert L. Heilbronner 
>> Center for Capitalism Studies, the University of Colorado Boulder, Democracy 
>> at Work Institute, The Digital Humanities Minor at The New School, The Lang 
>> Student Senate, and The Rosa Luxemburg Foundation NYC. 
>> 
>> The event is presented in partnership with Carnegie Mellon School of Design, 
>> Civic Hall, Democracy Collaborative, Green Worker Cooperatives, The Murphy 
>> Institute for Worker Education and Labor Studies at CUNY, the New Economy 
>> Coalition, The Robin Hood Foundation, Shareable, The United States 
>> Federation of Worker Cooperatives, Ver.di, The Working World, The Laura 
>> Flanders Show, and The Yale Information Society Project.
>> 
>> This is the fourth event in The New School’s series The Politics of Digital 
>> Culture, which included  The Internet as Playground & Factory (2009) and 
>> Digital Labor (2014), among other conferences. There will be two additional 
>> summits in this series, following up on these themes, in 2016.
>> 
>> Twitter:  @platformcoop #platformcoop
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 nov. 2015, at 12:52, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you for this Peter. Extremely interesting analysis of past and future 
>>> economic trends. In passing it answers Orsan's point about positive and 
>>> hope being in the 'non-automatable part of life and human'.
>>> 'They always looked to see if knowledge could be codified, yet knew that 
>>> you had to have tacit knowledge to apply and customise the codification. 
>>> That tacit knowledge might itself be codified. but that too needs further 
>>> tacit knowledge. and so on. It was a constant movement of codification plus 
>>> the tacit, never the eradication of the tacit. The moment you lose the 
>>> tacit, living labour, the codification atrophies.' (p13)
>>> 
>>> In other words the two functions are not opposed to each other, but are 
>>> complementary. The key is whether they are used to exploit by extracting a 
>>> profit, or to benefit society.
>>> 
>>> Anna
>>> 
>>>> On 6 Nov 2015, at 14:03, Peter Waterman <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> ___
>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>> ___
>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>> 
>> ___
>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org  
> 
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net 
> 
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> 
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ 

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Robin Murray on Post-Post-Fordism

[Anna Harris]

ldish and 
>> irresponsible interests. 
>> 
>> O.
>> ..
>> Platform Cooperativism 
>> Introduction. http://platformcoop.net
>> The seeds are being planted for a new kind of online economy. For all the 
>> wonders the Internet brings us, it is dominated by an economics of monopoly, 
>> extraction, and surveillance. Ordinary users retain little control over 
>> their personal data, and the digital workplace is creeping into every corner 
>> of workers’ lives. Online platforms often exploit and exacerbate existing 
>> inequalities in society, even while promising to be the great equalizers. 
>> Could the Internet be owned and governed differently? What if Uber drivers 
>> could set up their own platform, or if cities could control their own 
>> version of Airbnb? Can Silicon Alley do things more democratically than 
>> Silicon Valley? What are the prospects for platform cooperativism? 
>> 
>> On November 13 and 14, the New School in New York City will host a 
>> coming-out party for the cooperative Internet, built of platforms owned and 
>> governed by the people who rely on them. The program will include discussion 
>> sessions, screenings, monologues, legal hacks, workshops, and dialogues, as 
>> well as a showcase of projects, both conceptual and actual, under the 
>> purview of celebrity judges. We’ll learn from coders and worker 
>> cooperatives, scholars and designers. Together, we’ll put their lessons to 
>> work as we work toward usable apps and structural economic change. This is 
>> your chance to get on the ground floor of the next Internet, and to help 
>> make it a reality.
>> 
>> Platform Cooperativism is convened by Trebor Scholz(The New School) and 
>> Nathan Schneider (University of Colorado Boulder).
>> 
>> Further reading:
>> 
>> Trebor Scholz, “Platform Cooperativism vs. the Sharing Economy” (December 5, 
>> 2014) and ”Think Outside the Boss,” Public Seminar (April 5, 2015)
>> Nathan Schneider, “Owning Is the New Sharing,” Shareable (December 21, 2014)
>> Janelle Orsi, Frank Pasquale, Nathan Schneider, Pia Mancini, Trebor Scholz, 
>> “5 Ways to Take Back Tech,” The Nation (May 27, 2015)
>> Nathan Schneider, “Owning What We Share,” Pacific Standard (September 1, 
>> 2015)
>> Sponsors & Partners
>> Platform Cooperativism is sponsored by Eugene Lang College The New School 
>> for Liberal Arts, The Ford Foundation, The Freelancers Union, The New School 
>> University Student Senate, The Workers Lab, IG Metal, Institute for the 
>> Future, Demand Progress, Internet and Society, The Robert L. Heilbronner 
>> Center for Capitalism Studies, the University of Colorado Boulder, Democracy 
>> at Work Institute, The Digital Humanities Minor at The New School, The Lang 
>> Student Senate, and The Rosa Luxemburg Foundation NYC. 
>> 
>> The event is presented in partnership with Carnegie Mellon School of Design, 
>> Civic Hall, Democracy Collaborative, Green Worker Cooperatives, The Murphy 
>> Institute for Worker Education and Labor Studies at CUNY, the New Economy 
>> Coalition, The Robin Hood Foundation, Shareable, The United States 
>> Federation of Worker Cooperatives, Ver.di, The Working World, The Laura 
>> Flanders Show, and The Yale Information Society Project.
>> 
>> This is the fourth event in The New School’s series The Politics of Digital 
>> Culture, which included  The Internet as Playground & Factory (2009) and 
>> Digital Labor (2014), among other conferences. There will be two additional 
>> summits in this series, following up on these themes, in 2016.
>> 
>> Twitter:  @platformcoop #platformcoop
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 nov. 2015, at 12:52, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you for this Peter. Extremely interesting analysis of past and future 
>>> economic trends. In passing it answers Orsan's point about positive and 
>>> hope being in the 'non-automatable part of life and human'.
>>> 'They always looked to see if knowledge could be codified, yet knew that 
>>> you had to have tacit knowledge to apply and customise the codification. 
>>> That tacit knowledge might itself be codified. but that too needs further 
>>> tacit knowledge. and so on. It was a constant movement of codification plus 
>>> the tacit, never the eradication of the tacit. The moment you lose the 
>>> tacit, living labour, the codification atrophies.' (p13)
>>> 
>>> In other words the two functions are not opposed to each other, but are 
>>> complementary. The key is whether they are used to exploit by extracting a 
>>> profit, or to benefit society.
>>> 
>>> Anna
>>> 
>>>> On 6 Nov 2015, at 14:03, Peter Waterman <peterwaterman1...@gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> ___
>>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>> ___
>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>> networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org
>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS

[Anna Harris]

Yes. I think the authors are clear. This has to be an international movement, 
with long term goals, rather than national or local political aims. 

"It would mean building upon the post-nation-state territory of 'the stack' - 
that global infrastructure that enables our digital world today".

Could others enlighten what is meant by 'the stack'?

Anna

> On 3 Nov 2015, at 02:18, Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> 
> I don't see how this is contradictory,
> 
> we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but 
> certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups 
> working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now
> 
> At least while we wait for this, 
> http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization
> 
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, fab...@fabiant.eu <fab...@fabiant.eu> wrote:
>> Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming 
>> out over 50 years after Jorn's Situationists and Automation I feel we should 
>> have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading that 
>> this afternoon)
>>  
>> If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone 
>> regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc. 
>> well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's 
>> what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this 
>> B.I.G.?
>>  
>> Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where 
>> anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit 
>> tourism.
>>  
>> I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much further 
>> than another debased form of socialism in one country?
>>  
>> all the best
>>  
>> Fabian
>>  
>>  
>>> On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <mic...@p2pfoundation.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> agreed, 
>>>  
>>> but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate,
>>>  
>>> as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for 
>>> capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making 
>>> labour into a commons,
>>>  
>>> it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is 
>>> in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics 
>>> .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less, 
>>> physical labor more, as no one will want to do them,
>>>  
>>> Michel
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote: 
>>>  
>>> I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic 
>>> income. But it enables us to see the necessity for the BI rather than 
>>> seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued 
>>> demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the 
>>> background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is 
>>> traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open 
>>> to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy 
>>> which deprives us of work.
>>>  
>>> Anna
>>> 
>>> On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < mic...@p2pfoundation.net> wrote: 
>>> 
>>>> this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to 
>>>> posit this to be for the basic income ...
>>>>  
>>>> Michel
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote: 
>>>>  
>>>> Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the 
>>>> authors use on the book cover.
>>>> They say: 
>>>> "FULL AUTOMATION
>>>> With automation...machines can increasingly produce all necessary 
>>>> goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of 
>>>> producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards 
>>>> automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically 
>>>> accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a 
>>>> project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it 
>>>> beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109)
>>>>  
>>>> A vision of a p

[P2P-F] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS

[Anna Harris]

This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the 
demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short term 
demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come together with 
academics and supporters to design the future. 

Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But 
that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some 
time ago:

BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the 
economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that sense 
it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. 
The big advantages are that 
1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 
2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much 
knowledge of the economy.
3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in 
stimulating economic activity. (Brazil)
4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, 
Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously 
required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary.
5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as one 
of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but changes 
patterns of thought.'(p 641)

The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/

I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political 
spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.

Anna

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Re: [P2P-F] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS

[Anna Harris]

Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the 
authors use on the book cover.
They say: 
"FULL AUTOMATION
With automation...machines can increasingly produce all necessary goods and 
services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of producing them. For 
this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards automation and the 
replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically accelerated and targeted 
as a political project of the left. This is a project that takes an existing 
capitalist tendency and seeks to push it beyond the acceptable parameters of 
capitalist social relations." (P109)

A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they wish 
is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left, hopefully 
there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency so that it 
serves all of humanity rather than just the few. 

Anna

On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws <ursulah...@analyticaresearch.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula
>  
> From: Anna Harris [mailto:a...@shsh.co.uk] 
> Sent: 02 November 2015 09:19
> To: networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org; p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
> Cc: Ursula Huws <ursulah...@analyticaresearch.co.uk>
> Subject: NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX 
> WILLIAMS
>  
> This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the 
> demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short 
> term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come 
> together with academics and supporters to design the future. 
>  
> Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But 
> that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some 
> time ago:
>  
> BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the 
> economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that 
> sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. 
> The big advantages are that 
> 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 
> 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much 
> knowledge of the economy.
> 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in 
> stimulating economic activity. (Brazil)
> 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, 
> Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously 
> required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary.
> 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as 
> one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but 
> changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
> 
> 
> The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
>  
> I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political 
> spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
>  
> Anna

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS

[Anna Harris]

Francine,
The proposal here is that the universal basic income should not replace the 
welfare system but be a supplement to "a revived welfare state". (P119)

The note quotes an essay by Alyssa Ballistoni. 
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/alive-in-the-sunshine/

I am not able to discuss the maths. What is emphasised here is the diminishment 
of the work ethic, with the reduction of the working week, and that these are 
political rather than financial battles.

Anna

> On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:41, <mest...@skynet.be> <mest...@skynet.be> wrote:
> 
> Ana,
> the main problem is that too many people are confusing ‘basic income grant' 
> with a minimum guaranteed income. I fully endorse the latter, a minimum 
> income guaranteed to people out( of work, so they cannhave a life in dignity. 
> The ‘BIG’ goes to all people, whether rich or poor. It is quasi impossible to 
> fund, it is a gigantic gift to employers and maintains inequalities. It does 
> not exist anywhere.
> Is it not a better idea to democratize social protection mechanisms, make 
> them fully participative and broaden  social, economic and environmental 
> rights (apart from other advantages). If we want to strengthen solidarity in 
> society, this is the way to go.
> 
> Francine
> www.socialcommons.eu
> 
> Verzonden met Surface
> 
> Van: Anna Harris
> Verzonden: ‎maandag‎ ‎2‎ ‎november‎ ‎2015 ‎10‎:‎19
> Aan: <networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org>, p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
> 
> This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the 
> demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short 
> term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come 
> together with academics and supporters to design the future. 
> 
> Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But 
> that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some 
> time ago:
> 
> BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the 
> economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that 
> sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. 
> The big advantages are that 
> 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 
> 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much 
> knowledge of the economy.
> 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in 
> stimulating economic activity. (Brazil)
> 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, 
> Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously 
> required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary.
> 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as 
> one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but 
> changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
> 
> The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
> 
> I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political 
> spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
> 
> Anna

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[P2P-F] Education for all, including workers

[Anna Harris]

Paul Mason 6/10/15 17:30 

Download the Twitter app

This brilliant talk by Paul Mason is a must listen for all looking beyond 
capitalism, talking about the effect of information technology on the broader 
economic system.

Anna



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Re: [P2P-F] Elon Musk's bourgeois Mars

[Anna Harris]

Dear Kevin,

Show some love and expand a little on these cryptic remarks that leave me 
puzzled.

Anna

> On 30 Sep 2015, at 01:59, Kevin Carson  
> wrote:
> 
> Kim Stanley Robinson presented a pretty level-headed terraforming
> scenario in the Mars Trilogy IMO.
> 
> This article reflects a false "Green vs. Expert" dichotomy that is,
> sadly, all too common on the Left. Being green and anti-capitalist
> means, ipso facto, being at least a primativist lite.
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 7:53 PM, Eric Hunting  wrote:
>> What Musk was describing in this interview is a concept sometimes called
>> 'ballistic terraforming' and which can be achieved in a variety of ways.
>> Musk chose to refer to a method that sounds more realistic to most people;
>> nuclear bombs. The easier and more practical way more commonly proposed is
>> steering small comets or icy objects from the outer solar system into
>> collision with Mars. As inconceivable as that sounds, that's relatively
>> simple through the use of automated spacecraft as 'gravity tugs' to coax
>> planned changes in orbit, though it may take decades to move an object into
>> the desired path. The point of all this is simple; triggering an atmospheric
>> thermal cascade by putting enough water vapor into the atmosphere at once so
>> that, by the greenhouse effect, it raises temperature and causes more water
>> in the Mars crust globally to evaporate into the atmosphere and
>> progressively increases the temperature and atmosphere density to where the
>> surface might be colonized by very hardy plants like lichens--if they can be
>> adapted to tolerate the large amounts of toxic perchlorate salts in the
>> water and soil. In this way enough atmosphere might be built up to where
>> humans can operate on the surface without space suits--though still
>> requiring supplemental oxygen. This 'fast' process is still a process that
>> would take many generations to accomplish, as opposed to the very many
>> centuries pumping synthetic greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere would
>> using the other more commonly suggested method. Realistically, it may take
>> generations of research from the present day before we even know enough
>> about Mars to say whether or not these methods would work and it remains an
>> open question of whether it would be worthwhile given that Mars, lacking an
>> active planetary core, cannot produce its own magnetosphere to help hold an
>> atmosphere sustainably--which is why it lost it's formerly dense atmosphere
>> in the first place. And, of course, we don't even know if long term living
>> under Mars' reduced gravity is safe or if a clinical solution to that
>> problem is possible. By the time any of that matters, the technology
>> proposed may be made completely moot by nanotechnology and the 'human race'
>> may be long supplanted by transhumans who would need none of these elaborate
>> machinations to live in that environment.
>> 
>> So, basically, the author of this piece, triggered by the 'N word', is
>> complaining about something that is, at best, pure speculation if not
>> retrofuturist SciFi. What personally annoys me is the playing to the old
>> argument of; "why should we go to space just to export our terrestrial
>> madness?" This is rooted in a notion that the human race is ultimately a
>> mistake that needs to be contained, that all works of man are inherently
>> profane, and that we need to 'grow up' more and get our terrestrial house in
>> order to be worthy of doing things in the sacrosanct heavenly realms beyond
>> Earth. It never occurs to proponents of this notion that the act of going to
>> space might be a necessary part of that process of growing up. That we might
>> need the challenge of the space environment to ultimately learn the craft of
>> sustainability because Mother Earth molly-coddles us with a too-benign
>> environment that make its too easy to cheat. That we might need frontiers on
>> which to experiment in new ways of life when every single part of the Old
>> World is now owned and ruled-over by someone with vested interests in doing
>> things old ways.
>> 
>> There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the concept of space
>> settlement here which relates to preconceptions about space activity and its
>> relationship to the military industrial complex and exploitation for
>> nationalist prestige. It is assumed to be some expression of militaristic or
>> corporatist culture--understandable given that the outpost architecture
>> commonly illustrated is always militaristic in character. But in practice
>> every plausible space settlement must--of necessity--be a cohabitation
>> eco-village seeking an ideal sustainability. (on pain of death) The ultimate
>> space settler will not see themselves as a 'conqueror' of space but a
>> gardener of the universe and an experimenter in alternative lifestyle. The
>> garden is the essential functional and 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Greet the WEF founder, counterpart of the WSF, prof. Schwab the lead 'Social Entrepreneur'

[Anna Harris]

Orsan,

What are you trying to say with this bio of Schwab?

Anna



> On 19 Sep 2015, at 00:33, Orsan  wrote:
> 
> Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman
> 
> 
> Professor Klaus Schwab is the Founder and Executive Chairman of the World 
> Economic Forum, an independent, impartial, not-for-profit Foundation 
> committed to improving the state of the world. Since its inception in 1971, 
> the Forum has become the world’s foremost multistakeholder organization and 
> has been a driver for reconciliation efforts in different parts of the world, 
> as well as the catalyst of numerous public-private partnerships and 
> international initiatives. See the history page for more information.
> 
> In 1998, Klaus Schwab and his wife Hilde created the Schwab Foundation for 
> Social Entrepreneurship, which seeks to identify, recognize and disseminate 
> initiatives in social entrepreneurship that have significantly improved 
> people’s lives and have the potential to be replicated on a global scale. The 
> Foundation supports a network of 200 social entrepreneurs around the world.
> 
> In 2004, Klaus Schwab established, with the financial contribution he 
> received as part of the Dan David Prize, a new foundation: the Forum of Young 
> Global Leaders (targeted at leaders below 40 years of age); and, in 2011, he 
> created the Global Shapers Community (targeted at potential leaders between 
> the ages of 20 and 30). The purpose of these two foundations is to integrate 
> young people as a strong voice for the future into global decision-making 
> processes and to stimulate young people to engage in concrete projects that 
> address social problems.
> 
> Under the leadership of Klaus Schwab, the World Economic Forum also 
> established communities providing the best expertise and knowledge for 
> problem-solving. Among those communities is the Network of Global Agenda 
> Councils, comprising more than 1,500 of the most knowledgeable and relevant 
> experts related to over 80 global, regional and industry challenges.
> 
> The activities of the World Economic Forum comprise meetings that are 
> exclusively organized for its different communities and initiatives in line 
> with its mission of improving the state of the world. In the same context, it 
> also conducts research and produces reports.
> 
> The Forum employs more than 500 people, with its headquarters in Geneva, 
> Switzerland, and additional offices in New York, Beijing and Tokyo.
> 
> Professor Klaus Schwab holds two doctoral degrees, one in mechanical 
> engineering and one in economics and social sciences. He spent a year at 
> Harvard University and went on to be the youngest professor at the University 
> of Geneva. He has received numerous international and national honours.
> 
> Klaus and Hilde Schwab were married in 1971. He has always followed, outside 
> his work in the above foundations, a broad range of academic, cultural and 
> public service interests. He enjoys sports and is a regular participant of 
> the Engadin Cross-country Ski Marathon. The Schwabs have two children and two 
> grandchildren.
> 
> 
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [Debate-List] Must-Read Piece by Assange on Communications, Empire and, of course, the US One!

[Anna Harris]

Orsan,

Once again I hear your frustration and desperation.

But I think you underestimate the expertise and dedication required to sift 
through and understand the material released by Wikileaks. Here Assange is 
spelling it out for us so it appears obvious. But you have to have the time and 
motivation to do this work. And it is dangerous, as you can see from the 
threats to Assange which have him holed up in the embassy in London, and other 
whistle blowers imprisoned or fled. He was accused of rape and about to be 
extradited, and because it was a woman's issue, many turned against him. 

The Guardian did publish some of the material, yet there is no guarantee that 
publicising the material in itself, will have much effect, without the analysis 
that someone like Assange who has devoted himself to this, can bring to it. 

It is not to blame others for what we have not been willing or able to 
undertake ourselves, but to appreciate the persistence and dedication that he 
has given. And I'm sure there are many others like him, unsung heroes, that we 
never hear about, who end up forgotten behind bars. 

Anna





> On 18 Sep 2015, at 23:56, Orsan  wrote:
> 
> What about lack of interest from Left academic, Marxists, anarchists, 
> institutional actors, parties, NGOs, who stayed behind in supporting Assange, 
> why they did not use the millions worth findings to question, research, and 
> more important
> publicize such documentation massively unleashing and revealing the truth? 
> These files and cables are intelligence commons, belongs to people, can free 
> humanity; where has been those who claim to be the representing millions of 
> workers, consumers, citizens... 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 18 sep. 2015, at 16:53, peter waterman  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Strongly argued piece by Assange, which greatly increases my respect for him.
>> 
>> Highly original, I would think.
>> 
>> To be widely spread (particularly to members of the US International Studies 
>> Association?)
>> 
>> Regret I couldn't paste in the piece itself:
>> 
>> http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/32096-what-wikileaks-teaches-us-about-how-the-us-operates
>> 
>> Enjoy!
>> 
>> PeterW
>> 
>> -- 
>> Recent publications
>> 
>> 1. 2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement: Itinerary of 
>> a Long-Distance Internationalist. 
>> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism 
>> _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/ (Free). 2. 2014. Interface Journal 
>> Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social Movement Internationalisms'. 
>> (Free).3. 2014. with Laurence Cox, ‘Movement Internationalism/s’, Interface: 
>> a Journal for and about Social Movements. (Editorial), Vol. 6 (2), pp. 1–12. 
>> 4. 2014. ‘The International Labour Movement in, Against and Beyond, the 
>> Globalized and Informatized Cage of Capitalism and Bureaucracy. (Interview). 
>> Interface: a Journal for and about Social Movements. Vol. 6 (2), pp. 35-58. 
>> 5. 2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai Sen 
>> (ed), Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements: Struggles for Other 
>> Worlds  (Part I). (10 Euros). 6. 2015. Waterman, Peter. ‘Beyond Labourism, 
>> Development and Decent Work’. Global Labour Journal, 2015, 6(2), pp. 246-50.
>> 
>> More publications, click []
>> -- 
>> To view previous posts, create a Google account with your current email and 
>> log in using gmail to access the archives.
>> https://accounts.google.com/newaccount?hl=en
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Re: [P2P-F] [WSF-Discuss] [NetworkedLabour] Greet the WEF founder, counterpart of the WSF, prof. Schwab the lead 'Social Entrepreneur'

[Anna Harris]

oney comes from 
> tells what WSF is about. Ford Foundation was a main example. This kind of 
> reasoning is limited. It may hold more important value than the criticism 
> against WEF, like when Marx claimed cooperatives had to be independent to be 
> of any use for the working class and not state funded. But in terms of WSF it 
> was  a simplistic argument that carried very little weight  as no 
> alternatives were shown that could be seen as without problems. 
> 
> So I think one should be aware of that the way movements use the concepts are 
> important and make people aware of possible differences and conflicts rather 
> than believing that what is important is to find out which outside forces has 
> been supporting which concepts. The left did this for many years concerning 
> the concept environment seeing it as imposed from outside to divert the 
> revolutionary struggle from the important social issues. Partly this was 
> probably true and yet so extremely misleading and a way to marginalize the 
> left rather then confronting capitalism wherever needed. 
> 
> Tord Björk
> 
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Paola Manduca <paolamand...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> there is a say in my country..follow the money...
>> 
>> the capital for establishing the WEF is from a "truly Israeli" price.
>> liberal or illiberal is not the point 
>> 
>> who decides and what is proposed and where the info goes are the points. On 
>> these one would like to know better
>> 
>> stay well 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Orsan <orsan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> My point is, while I heard about the term 'social entrepreneurship' first 
>>> time in my life towards the end of 2000s, after the crisis; the dr. 
>>> strangelove, founding father of the top level elitist gathering of Davos, 
>>> against which WSF is launched, has been building his family foundation to 
>>> dedicate efforts to spread the word of 'social entrepreneurship' from 
>>> mountain summit to down. Schwab Foundation is a satellite completing 
>>> non-profit, social enterprise, had introduced the concept to the mortals 
>>> like you an me.   
>>> 
>>> The publication of Empire, by Negri and the other guy, in 1999, emergence 
>>> of micro credit networks, the spread of the idea of radical democratic 
>>> entrepreneurship becomes a hype in parallel to WSF. Then formation of ideas 
>>> around p2p, commons production, so on, surrounded by this concept which has 
>>> been propagated from the most top and linked through the grassroots by the 
>>> work of funded agencies, NGOs under the term that is becoming hype after 
>>> 2008 crisis. 
>>> 
>>> One can not avoid to see how the global agendas are set, the concepts are 
>>> spread, clash and get connected around the middle classes that are losing 
>>> ground, and most talented of those form start-ups, entrepreneur 
>>> communities, like co-working spaces so on so forth, and the rest are pushed 
>>> to real desperation.
>>> 
>>> Orsan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 19 sep. 2015, at 08:22, Anna Harris <a...@shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Orsan,
>>>> 
>>>> What are you trying to say with this bio of Schwab?
>>>> 
>>>> Anna
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 19 Sep 2015, at 00:33, Orsan <orsan1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Professor Klaus Schwab is the Founder and Executive Chairman of the World 
>>>>> Economic Forum, an independent, impartial, not-for-profit Foundation 
>>>>> committed to improving the state of the world. Since its inception in 
>>>>> 1971, the Forum has become the world’s foremost multistakeholder 
>>>>> organization and has been a driver for reconciliation efforts in 
>>>>> different parts of the world, as well as the catalyst of numerous 
>>>>> public-private partnerships and international initiatives. See the 
>>>>> history page for more information.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In 1998, Klaus Schwab and his wife Hilde created the Schwab Foundation 
>>>>> for Social Entrepreneurship, which seeks to identify, recognize and 
>>>>> disseminate initiatives in social entrepreneurship that have 
>>>>> s

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: Book The End of the Beginning finally published!

[Anna Harris]

Is there a singular lack of women's contributions to this volume? If so are
women singularly uninterested in the future? Or is there some other
explanation?
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Greece: A World-Historic Defeat???

[Anna Harris]

As far as I am aware, you are right Bob. This is a very different 
interpretation and not one I have seen anywhere else. Is it just a game, what 
one calls winning another calls losing, but no significant difference in the 
outcome? Or are these investment funds and debt restructuring quoted in the 
article something being handed over 'under the counter' so to speak?

Anna



On 13 Jul 2015, at 05:12, Orsan orsan1...@gmail.com wrote:

Is this the link?
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1139.php 


 On 12 jul. 2015, at 22:57, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Interesting (to me, anyway, who only sees all of this from afar).
 
 Panich seems to have a significantly different opinion than I've seen
 on this list so far.
 
 Comments? Analysis?
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Greece: A World-Historic Defeat???

[Anna Harris]

How it looks from a Greek agroeconomist viewpoint:

http://www.arc2020.eu/2015/06/focus-on-greece-with-pavlos-georgiadis/

Anna



On 13 Jul 2015, at 05:12, Orsan orsan1...@gmail.com wrote:

Is this the link?
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/1139.php 


 On 12 jul. 2015, at 22:57, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Interesting (to me, anyway, who only sees all of this from afar).
 
 Panich seems to have a significantly different opinion than I've seen
 on this list so far.
 
 Comments? Analysis?
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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Internet Social Forum Climate

[Anna Harris]

I have just acquired a Fairphone, which I think addresses both the points you 
raised Peter in 1) below, ie mining raw materials and instant obsolescence. 
Addresses but does not completely resolve, admittedly.  Things will not change 
overnight. As with most of these problems it is a question of increasing 
awareness. 

Anna



On 17 Jun 2015, at 18:42, peter waterman peterwaterman1...@gmail.com wrote:

Michel

Although, as you know, I generally agree with your posture toward ICT, I am not 
sure whether your response meets Ariel's concerns. Let me inter-leaf in 
horrible CAPS...

2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement: Itinerary of a 
Long-Distance Internationalist. 
http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism 
_to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/ (Free). 
2014. Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social Movement 
Internationalisms'. (Free).
2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai Sen (ed), 
Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements: Struggles for Other Worlds  
(Part I). (10 Euros).
2012. EBook: Recovering Internationalism.  [A compilation of papers from the 
new millenium. Now free in two download formats]
2013. EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum: Critical 
Explorations http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
2012. Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: For the Global 
Emancipation of Labour 
2005-? Ongoing. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.???. 
Needed: a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront a 
Globalised, Informatised Capitalism (2011) (c. 1,000 pages of Working Papers, 
free, from the 1980's-90's).

 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Michel Bauwens mic...@p2pfoundation.net 
 wrote:
 dear Ariel,
 
 I understand the argument, and the energy costs,
 
 my argument is two-fold
 
 1) that in a different systemic context, internet energy usage can be 
 seriously curtailed
 ​(SEEMS TO BE 3-FOLD!). DEPENDENCE ON A 'DIFFERENT SYSTEMIC CONTEXT' IS A 
 LITTLE LIKE SAYING, AS WE DID IN HAMPSTEAD YCL 1951: 'AFTER THE REVOLUTION 
 THE MEN WILL HAVE THE BABIES'. MOREOVER, THIS POINT DOES NOT ADDRESS EITHER 
 THE MOMENT OF RAW-MATERIAL EXTRACTION NOR THAT OF WHAT I CALL 'INSTANT 
 OBSOLESCENCE' AND ITS POLLUTION EFFECTS. ​
 ​
 2) that it is in any case an essential civilizational advance, like writing 
 etc, which we will want to preserve even in times of crisis
​AGREED, A CIVILISATION ADVANCE, NOT JUST A CAPITALIST ONE (CASTELLS SAYS 
SOMETHING LIKE 'TRANS-EPOCHAL'). ​ ​'EVEN'? IN SO FAR AS WE ARE LIVING A 
CIVILISATIONAL CRISIS, I WOULD SAY THAT ICT IS BOTH PART OF THE PROBLEM AND 
PART OF THE SOLUTION. ​
 
 3) that it is essential to social struggle

​INDEEDY. SOCIAL STRUGGLE IS TAKING PLACE BOTH WITH AND WITHIN ICT. MOREOVER, 
IT INCORPORATES THE PRINCIPLE OF FEEDBACK, IT HAS A HORIZONTAL POTENTIAL (THUS 
UNDERMINING, FOR EXAMPLE, THE TRADITIONAL HIERARCHY OF THE TRADITIONAL SOCIAL 
MOVEMENT ORGANISATION), AND (AS ONE OF THE DOCS ON P2P POINTS OUT) HAS THE 
POTENTIAL FOR EMPOWERING THE LOCAL AND THE SMALL-SCALE PRODUCTION. ​ 
 
 4) that it is essential for the transformation of the economy towards 
 sustainability if we want to avoid massive loss of human life

​AGREED, BUT NEEDS SPELLING OUT. AND THE SOURCES OF SUCH ARGUMENTS IN THE P2P 
DOCS YOU INDICATE AROUSE MY SCEPTICISM.​ 
 
 Of course, we are having this conversation of the network as well,

​ALL OF WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THAT I AGREE WITH ARIEL'S POSTURE, AS YOU MAY HAVE 
NOTICED IN PREVIOUS POSTINGS IN THIS EXCHANGE!

Best,

Peter​ 
 
 see also: http://p2pfoundation.net/Internet_is_NOT_an_Energy_Hog
 
 eventually http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Ecology#Green_Computing / 
 http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Ecology#Specifics:_Green_Computing
 
 On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Ariel Salleh arielsall...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Michel
 Thanks. There are a number of interesting political economy questions in 
 this outline of P2P commoning but let's keep focus on the environmental 
 costs of ICT -
 like the massive contradiction faced by WSF activists between dependency on 
 the Internet, on one hand, and Climate Change, on the other. 
 
 Internet Cloud data centers or server farms are giant warehouses stacked 
 with computers covering a denuded land area of hundreds of acres across a 
 given state. 
 They draw electricity to function as info-distributors and email 
 storehouses, but day and night, generate so much heat that half as much 
 power again must be used to cool the machines by air-conditioning. 
 Google Corp alone is said to have over 20 ‘farms', housing some half million 
 servers - each with a power consumption measured in triple digit megawatts. 
 To gauge scale, we can compare domestic use where one megawatt would on 
 average supply 1000 homes. 
 Computing is seen as clean technology, but only because its ecological 
 footprint 

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

Hi Bob,

The link to the plan for Nords pas de Calais;
http://www.accenture.com/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/accenture-third-industrial-revolution-master-plan.pdf


Glad you find this interesting. So do I.

Anna



On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks, Anna,

 This is turning into an interesting conversation. (To me, anyway...)

 Hope it is not too tiresome for you. I appreciate your substantive
 responses to my poking-for-holes.

 On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
  Perhaps what has so far not been part of the discussion is that Rifkin
 has already helped to set up 5 areas
  where the principles of the Third Industrial Revolution (TIR) are
 already being implemented, the latest being
  that of Nords-pas-de-Calais in France, in 2013. All the reports are
 online, and can be read.

 Is this the best place to look?
 http://www.thethirdindustrialrevolution.com/masterPlan.cfm

  You are preaching to the converted about more labour intensive
 agriculture and less mechanisation.

 Actually, I think more mechanisation is also possible in smaller-scale
 labor-intensive ag, but it would be very different mechanisation. Not
 much money in it for big ag. Organic farmers around us love 1940's
 farm equipment, for example. And the pedal-powered lay-down work carts
 Michel tipped me to recently. And the Amish hackers:
 http://kk.org/thetechnium/2009/02/amish-hackers-a/

 And what Steve Bosserman and his ecosystemic collaborators are working
 on in Tanzania:
 http://tip.webfactional.com/accounting/projects/

 We got a farmer-inventor near us who is also dreaming about
 small-scale cheap robots.

  Now Roberto has given a much better explanation.

 Missed Roberto's explanation somehow. Where should I have seen it?

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Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

Hi Bob,

Perhaps what has so far not been part of the discussion is that Rifkin has 
already helped to set up 5 areas where the principles of the Third Industrial 
Revolution (TIR) are already being implemented, the latest being that of 
Nords-pas-de-Calais in France, in 2013. All the reports are online, and can be 
read. I agree with you about the need to have something which is practically 
possible now, and this is what drew me to TIR. Yes it will take many years for 
this to be rolled out globally, but it is already beginning on a regional level.

Rifkin envisages 20-30 years to transition to a more collaborative and 
sustainable economy. That does not mean just continuing with what we have. 
Changes are already taking place which is why we are already in transition. 
However the transition will not happen overnight, nor is it guaranteed. What is 
guaranteed is that if we continue as we are for another 20-30 years, it will 
probably be too late to turn things around.

You are preaching to the converted about more labour intensive agriculture and 
less mechanisation. Sorry I gave an example which was open to that sort of 
interpretation. I was trying to illustrate to clarify marginal cost. Now 
Roberto has given a much better explanation. ( I am helping to organise the 
next national gathering of UK Food Sovereignty which is taking place in Hebden 
Bridge where I live)

Anna


On 13 Apr 2015, at 12:47, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:

Just to be clear:

 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 Private property? Well we could have much discussion about whether owning
 your own toothbrush is akin to owning land that you can stop other people
 from using. Don't know quite what he is accusing Rifkin of here, but I sense
 I don't agree with him.

Nor do I. Nor do I agree with Raymond's whole attitude toward the
world, which (as possibly a caricature) is libertarian capitalist. I
am more or less the opposite.

 If you really want to understand Rifkin there is no substitute for reading
 his books.

I have a large stack of books to read, several recommended in this
list. Part of engaging in discussions like this is deciding if (for
example) Rifkin should be added to the stack. So far, probably not.
(Although I found Michel's note about the Chinese leaders reading
Rifkin to be interesting. But I am not the Chinese leaders
And I did appreciate the article Anna cited, gets me a bigger
selection of Rifkin's ideas without reading several books.)

 poking holes for the sake of it is a waste of time.

I know that's annoying. But in my partial defense, I come from an
implementor's viewpoint. While Raymond and I are on opposite fences
politically and ideologically, we are both implementors. I mean, our
jobs are to make ideas work in the real world. So when we see a very
ambitious set of ideas with a lot of handwaving about how they will be
implemented, we immediately ask, well, how will that actually work?

You may remember my first foray onto this list was something I wrote
about how an actually better economic system might be implemented. It
still had a lot of handwaving, but my focus was on things that I
thought could actually be practically implemented. Whether I was
correct or not, I was eager to have people poke holes in my thinking.

But if somebody who is passionate about an idea can tell me where I am
missing the boat, I promise (and usually fulfill) that I will listen
to reason and be ready to be wrong.

In this case, I can see from the article that Anna cited that Rifkin
is not delusional, and understands that his proposals will take many
years and massive capital investments to work. So at least some of
Raymond's criticisms are unfair. But more skepticism below...

 Food appears at the moment to be an exception, but we have to remember that 
 he is talking about marginal cost,
 not cost of production. The cost of producing another unit, once the basic 
 infrastructure is in place, can be minimal
 in many cases. With automation and mechanisation, the cost of producing 20 
 tons of tomatoes may be very little
 different from producing 21 tons of tomatoes.

The farm workers might disagree.

I understand that the argument is that the work can all be automated.
That would imply to me, at least in the short to medium term,
increasing monoculture and Monsanto-ization. And more production in
regions like California, which are running out of water. Mechanical
tomato pickers, for example, require changes to plant varieties (bred
for toughness of skin rather than flavor) and soil conditions
(relatively dry but easy to irrigate) and larger fields (to amortize
the expensive machinery).
http://www.boomcalifornia.com/2013/06/thinking-through-the-tomato-harvester/

Mechanization in agriculture might be still in the stage of
industrialization and centralization (Rifkin's second industrial
revolution) rather than the stage of decentralization that
manufacturing ~might~ go through. Ag

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

Hi Bob,

I've briefly looked at the piece by Eric Raymond. 

Rifkin quotes many instances where the marginal cost of production is near 
zero, online magazines and newspapers, university study courses, music, etc. 
But I don't think he would maintain that everything will follow that trend. So 
quoting instances where it doesn't apply doesn't disprove what he is saying. 

Food appears at the moment to be an exception, but we have to remember that he 
is talking about marginal cost, not cost of production. The cost of producing 
another unit, once the basic infrastructure is in place, can be minimal in many 
cases. With automation and mechanisation, the cost of producing 20 tons of 
tomatoes may be very little different from producing 21 tons of tomatoes. 

Eric says Rifkin ' wishes away capital expenditure', but it is because capital 
expenditure does not necessarily increase with the production of another unit, 
that marginal costs can approach zero. For example, since wind and sun are 
free, once the capital costs of renewable energy have been met, producing more 
units of energy costs nothing.

Quoting the cost of skilled labour, eg a plumber, really shows that Eric has no 
grasp of what Rifkin is talking about. Rifkin is not saying everything will be 
free.

Private property? Well we could have much discussion about whether owning your 
own toothbrush is akin to owning land that you can stop other people from 
using. Don't know quite what he is accusing Rifkin of here, but I sense I don't 
agree with him.

If you really want to understand Rifkin there is no substitute for reading his 
books. I am no authority to defend his ideas. But poking holes for the sake of 
it is a waste of time.

Anna



On 11 Apr 2015, at 18:34, Michel Bauwens mic...@p2pfoundation.net wrote:

dear Bob,

rifkin worked with merkel but the germans decided the energiewende 
independently,

the chinese case however is clearer, since the chinese leaders themselves said 
that reading the rifkin book was instrumental

rifkin also played a role as consulant for the nord pas de calais energy 
transition,

Michel

 On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks for continuing, Anna.
 
 I have a few followup questions and comments.
 
 1. Do you have any evidence of Rifkin's actual influence in the ruling
 capitalist circles? It's one thing to hear an interesting speaker give
 them some food for thought. It's yet another to change their economic
 and political practices accordingly. (I'm not saying he has no actual
 influence, I'm just wondering if anybody knows anything of substance.)
 
 2. Rifkin's Zero Margin Cost story has a lot of holes, as criticized here:
 http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/contra-rifkin-1-food-and-manufacturing-will-never-be-zero-marginal-cost/2014/09/30
 (I hate to quote Eric Raymond, with whom I fundamentally disagree on
 most things, but I do agree with a lot of that.)
 
 Several posters on this list have explained the exploited labor in the
 computer value systems (in mining, for example). I used to work in a
 plastics factory (now feedstock for 3D printing), where they had a lot
 of signs reminding me that I would get cancer for working there. And
 recycling is a toxic badly-paid job.
 
 3. Do you know what Rifkin's actual political-economy proposals are
 like? Does he have any? What kind of economic system does he think we
 will be moving into?
 
 
 On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
  These are really good questions Bob. Rifkin has said that his ideas are 
  generally not welcomed in US where the military industrial complex has such 
  a strong hold. As Roberto Verzola has pointed out in his comment on grid 
  parity
 
  'Since solar rooftos are a *distributed* form of generation, the whole
  p2p concept applies! Of course, as on the Internet, the two major
  trends, p2p and client-server, will continue to fight it out for
  supremacy. and it is by no means certain which trend will become
  dominant.'
 
  Rifkin writes about trends that are already happening, like Roberto 
  Verzola, not hypotheses about what might happen, based on what has happened 
  in the past. That I think is a reason why he appeals to those who make 
  powerful decisions. And like Orsan says he sees how their business 
  interests can best be served by aligning with what is already happening.
 
  However, capitalists are also human beings. They don't just think as their 
  class dictates, although that may be a very large influence. To treat them 
  as the enemy ignores the possibility that there might be a part of them 
  that actually agrees with you. Rifkin explores that part. I see him as an 
  undercover activist, and I applaud what he is doing.
 
  Orsan, your objections to green energy won't stand up to the practically 
  free electricity being produced now in parts of Germany, and whatever harm 
  is done by wind turbines cannot be compared to the co2 smog produced

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

For number 3 read 

http://www.eib.org/attachments/general/events/20150302_momentum_for_europe_rifkin_en.pdf

Anna


On 11 Apr 2015, at 18:24, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for continuing, Anna.

I have a few followup questions and comments.

1. Do you have any evidence of Rifkin's actual influence in the ruling
capitalist circles? It's one thing to hear an interesting speaker give
them some food for thought. It's yet another to change their economic
and political practices accordingly. (I'm not saying he has no actual
influence, I'm just wondering if anybody knows anything of substance.)

2. Rifkin's Zero Margin Cost story has a lot of holes, as criticized here:
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/contra-rifkin-1-food-and-manufacturing-will-never-be-zero-marginal-cost/2014/09/30
(I hate to quote Eric Raymond, with whom I fundamentally disagree on
most things, but I do agree with a lot of that.)

Several posters on this list have explained the exploited labor in the
computer value systems (in mining, for example). I used to work in a
plastics factory (now feedstock for 3D printing), where they had a lot
of signs reminding me that I would get cancer for working there. And
recycling is a toxic badly-paid job.

3. Do you know what Rifkin's actual political-economy proposals are
like? Does he have any? What kind of economic system does he think we
will be moving into?


 On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 These are really good questions Bob. Rifkin has said that his ideas are 
 generally not welcomed in US where the military industrial complex has such a 
 strong hold. As Roberto Verzola has pointed out in his comment on grid parity
 
 'Since solar rooftos are a *distributed* form of generation, the whole
 p2p concept applies! Of course, as on the Internet, the two major
 trends, p2p and client-server, will continue to fight it out for
 supremacy. and it is by no means certain which trend will become
 dominant.'
 
 Rifkin writes about trends that are already happening, like Roberto Verzola, 
 not hypotheses about what might happen, based on what has happened in the 
 past. That I think is a reason why he appeals to those who make powerful 
 decisions. And like Orsan says he sees how their business interests can best 
 be served by aligning with what is already happening.
 
 However, capitalists are also human beings. They don't just think as their 
 class dictates, although that may be a very large influence. To treat them as 
 the enemy ignores the possibility that there might be a part of them that 
 actually agrees with you. Rifkin explores that part. I see him as an 
 undercover activist, and I applaud what he is doing.
 
 Orsan, your objections to green energy won't stand up to the practically free 
 electricity being produced now in parts of Germany, and whatever harm is done 
 by wind turbines cannot be compared to the co2 smog produced by coal fired 
 power stations. Our biggest threat as Naomi Klein points out is climate 
 warming, rarely mentioned on this list, and devastating in its suicidal 
 implications.
 
 I agree with you Orsan, that historical analysis is useful to understand the 
 past, but actually we face a totally new situation, with totally new tools 
 which never existed before. We have to find our common humanity to overcome 
 the threat of extinction.
 
 Anna
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On 8 Apr 2015, at 23:40, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 I don't think much good would be served by initiating a discussion on this 
 list,
 
 I can understand from the first responders (including me) why you
 might think so, but I was not being sarcastic when I thought it was a
 great discussion topic. And were the discussion to continue, and you
 to explain why you respect Rifkin's ideas, I promise to refrain from
 further knee-jerk responses and cheap shots at his expense.
 
 But here's Rifkin apparently talking about the beginning of the end
 of the capitalist era to a bunch of rulers of the capitalists. I am
 aware that some of those people do see the end of fossil fuels, but I
 have not seen any signs that they see the end of capitalism. So why
 are they listening to him? What does it mean about the world today?
 
 Brian Holmes wrote something on this list awhile ago where he thought
 the leaders of the Chinese CP were watching the failures of the US and
 Europe and did not want to repeat them. Possibly part of the same
 story?

___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

These are really good questions Bob. Rifkin has said that his ideas are 
generally not welcomed in US where the military industrial complex has such a 
strong hold. As Roberto Verzola has pointed out in his comment on grid parity

'Since solar rooftos are a *distributed* form of generation, the whole
p2p concept applies! Of course, as on the Internet, the two major
trends, p2p and client-server, will continue to fight it out for
supremacy. and it is by no means certain which trend will become
dominant.'

Rifkin writes about trends that are already happening, like Roberto Verzola, 
not hypotheses about what might happen, based on what has happened in the past. 
That I think is a reason why he appeals to those who make powerful decisions. 
And like Orsan says he sees how their business interests can best be served by 
aligning with what is already happening.

However, capitalists are also human beings. They don't just think as their 
class dictates, although that may be a very large influence. To treat them as 
the enemy ignores the possibility that there might be a part of them that 
actually agrees with you. Rifkin explores that part. I see him as an undercover 
activist, and I applaud what he is doing. 

Orsan, your objections to green energy won't stand up to the practically free 
electricity being produced now in parts of Germany, and whatever harm is done 
by wind turbines cannot be compared to the co2 smog produced by coal fired 
power stations. Our biggest threat as Naomi Klein points out is climate 
warming, rarely mentioned on this list, and devastating in its suicidal 
implications.

I agree with you Orsan, that historical analysis is useful to understand the 
past, but actually we face a totally new situation, with totally new tools 
which never existed before. We have to find our common humanity to overcome the 
threat of extinction.

Anna






 On 8 Apr 2015, at 23:40, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 I don't think much good would be served by initiating a discussion on this 
 list,

I can understand from the first responders (including me) why you
might think so, but I was not being sarcastic when I thought it was a
great discussion topic. And were the discussion to continue, and you
to explain why you respect Rifkin's ideas, I promise to refrain from
further knee-jerk responses and cheap shots at his expense.

But here's Rifkin apparently talking about the beginning of the end
of the capitalist era to a bunch of rulers of the capitalists. I am
aware that some of those people do see the end of fossil fuels, but I
have not seen any signs that they see the end of capitalism. So why
are they listening to him? What does it mean about the world today?

Brian Holmes wrote something on this list awhile ago where he thought
the leaders of the Chinese CP were watching the failures of the US and
Europe and did not want to repeat them. Possibly part of the same
story?

___
P2P Foundation - Mailing list
http://www.p2pfoundation.net
https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

I consider both these comments unnecessarily negative. Disagreement is one 
thing, which I hope is welcomed as inevitable where diversity exists. But those 
deprecating remarks are intended to wound. They do not offer any grounds for 
open discussion. 



On 8 Apr 2015, at 16:50, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:

Actually, I thought it was interesting where he was going with his
schtick. I had not kept up. Rifkin and Merkel! What a couple!

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:46 AM, peter waterman
peterwaterman1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi, Anna,
 
 I would have thought he was really on top of his self-publicity operation
 and needed little extra from you.
 
 Best,
 
 P
 
 2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement: Itinerary of a
 Long-Distance Internationalist.
 http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism
 _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/ (Free).
 2014. Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social Movement
 Internationalisms'. (Free).
 2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai Sen (ed),
 Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements: Struggles for Other
 Worlds  (Part I). (10 Euros).
 2012. EBook: Recovering Internationalism.  [A compilation of papers from the
 new millenium. Now free in two download formats]
 2013. EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum: Critical
 Explorations http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
 2012. Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: For the Global
 Emancipation of Labour
 2005-? Ongoing. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.???.
 Needed: a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
 2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront a
 Globalised, Informatised Capitalism (2011) (c. 1,000 pages of Working
 Papers, free, from the 1980's-90's).
 
 
 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 
 
 
 
 http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=588d35ee-35b3-44c4-8535-d4747f9b84f0c=91e9ad10-aa46-11e3-9e40-d4ae52753a3bch=92cd7d60-aa46-11e3-9eb5-d4ae52753a3b
 
 
 From: Office of Jeremy Rifkin o...@foet.org
 Date: 8 April 2015 06:05:23 BST
 To: a...@shsh.co.uk
 Subject: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin
 Reply-To: o...@foet.org
 
 Having trouble viewing this email? Click here
 
 
 Art and The End of Capitalism
 
 
 
 Jeremy Rifkin has diagnosed the beginning of the end of the capitalist
 era, and artists are part of the prescription for a healthy, collaborative
 future
 
 Click here to see the full article from
 
 The Financial Times
 500,000
 Copies of
 The Third Industrial Revolution Have Been Printed in China
 Mr. Rifkin's New York Times bestselling book, The Third Industrial
 Revolution, was published in China in June 2012 and was the number one
 bestselling business book, currently with over 500,000 copies in print.
 The Zero Marginal Cost Society Has Now Been Published in 15 Languages!
 
 Click Here For More Information on
 The Zero Marginal Cost Society
 See our TIR Master Plans Website for more information on the TIR
 Consulting Group LLC
 
 
 
 
 SEE JEREMY RIFKIN'S BIOGRAPHY HERE
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Jeremy Rifkin Presents the Keynote Address at the European Investment
 Bank's Momentum For Europe - Innovation and Competitiveness Event
 On March 2nd, 2015 Jeremy Rifkin joined Angela Merkel, The Chancellor of
 Germany, Jean-Claude Juncker, The President of the European Commission, and
 Werner Hoyer, The President of the European Investment Bank, in Berlin,
 Germany to deliver the opening keynote address at the European Investment
 Bank conference on Momentum for Europe-Innovation and Competitiveness. Mr.
 Rifkin presented a bold new plan for the next stage of the European journey:
 The build-out and scale-up of an Internet of Things infrastructure for a
 Digital Europe and the transition to a Third Industrial Revolution.
 
 Mr. Rifkin argued that the Digital Europe transition will revolutionize
 every commercial sector, disrupt the workings of virtually every industry,
 bring with it unprecedented new economic opportunities, put millions of
 people back to work, and create a more sustainable post-carbon society to
 mitigate climate change.
 
 
 Click Here To See Mr. Rifkin's Interview with EurActiv.com
 
 China's New Richest Man Says His Success is Inspired by Jeremy Rifkin's
 Vision of a Third Industrial Revolution
 
 In his new book, China's New Energy Revolution, Li Hejun, now China's
 richest man, says he was deeply moved [by the] powerful set of coordinates
 that Jeremy Rifkin lays out in his book, The Third Industrial Revolution,
 regarding the conceptualization and deployment of a digitalized Third
 Industrial Revolution infrastructure. In the preface to his book, Li Hejun
 writes I was deeply moved by the author's insights. Reflecting upon my
 experience working in the new energy sector in the past 20 years, and
 especially in the PV industry in recent years, I found Rifkin's thesis very

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Orsan for asking me. I have spoken before about my respect for 
Rifkin's ideas which I know is not shared on this list. People are very 
suspicious because he works with the rulers rather than the grass roots, and 
rightly so. Rifkin makes no secret of his desire to influence those with power, 
and his opinion that some in the big corporations and government see the end of 
fossil fuels and want to provide an alternative future. 

I don't think much good would be served by initiating a discussion on this 
list, but I would heartily recommend you to read his last two books, Third 
Industrial Revolution and  Zero Marginal Cost, which is on the p2p list as 
recommended reading. Listening to his talks is not enough. There he deals only 
with the economic issues. But his belief that when people own and produce their 
own renewable power, which they can freely exchange on a grid similar to the 
Internet, without going through some central monopoly, that this will 
fundamentally change social relationships and our relationship to the 
biosphere, is very convincing. However he is not optimistic that we will take 
this route. Too much weighed against it. But there are places where it is 
beginning to happen. 

Anna



On 8 Apr 2015, at 17:42, Orsan Senalp orsan1...@gmail.com wrote:

Anna, what would be your comment on such cooperation or servicing of Rifkin to 
Chinese and German rulers, or may be more interesting question and to turn it 
around, of their interest in ending capitalism? I really like to hear an open 
discussion, here or wherever so would appreciate if you could share your 
opinion wheatear in the direction suggest on any other aspect of the info on 
the link you shared!


 On 08 Apr 2015, at 18:24, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 
 I consider both these comments unnecessarily negative. Disagreement is one 
 thing, which I hope is welcomed as inevitable where diversity exists. But 
 those deprecating remarks are intended to wound. They do not offer any 
 grounds for open discussion. 
 
 
 
 On 8 Apr 2015, at 16:50, Bob Haugen bob.hau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Actually, I thought it was interesting where he was going with his
 schtick. I had not kept up. Rifkin and Merkel! What a couple!
 
 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:46 AM, peter waterman
 peterwaterman1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi, Anna,
 
 I would have thought he was really on top of his self-publicity operation
 and needed little extra from you.
 
 Best,
 
 P
 
 2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement: Itinerary of a
 Long-Distance Internationalist.
 http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism
 _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/ (Free).
 2014. Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social Movement
 Internationalisms'. (Free).
 2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai Sen (ed),
 Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements: Struggles for Other
 Worlds  (Part I). (10 Euros).
 2012. EBook: Recovering Internationalism.  [A compilation of papers from the
 new millenium. Now free in two download formats]
 2013. EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum: Critical
 Explorations http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
 2012. Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: For the Global
 Emancipation of Labour
 2005-? Ongoing. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.???.
 Needed: a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
 2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront a
 Globalised, Informatised Capitalism (2011) (c. 1,000 pages of Working
 Papers, free, from the 1980's-90's).
 
 
 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 
 
 
 
 http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=588d35ee-35b3-44c4-8535-d4747f9b84f0c=91e9ad10-aa46-11e3-9e40-d4ae52753a3bch=92cd7d60-aa46-11e3-9eb5-d4ae52753a3b
 
 
 From: Office of Jeremy Rifkin o...@foet.org
 Date: 8 April 2015 06:05:23 BST
 To: a...@shsh.co.uk
 Subject: Update from the Office of Jeremy Rifkin
 Reply-To: o...@foet.org
 
 Having trouble viewing this email? Click here
 
 
 Art and The End of Capitalism
 
 
 
 Jeremy Rifkin has diagnosed the beginning of the end of the capitalist
 era, and artists are part of the prescription for a healthy, collaborative
 future
 
 Click here to see the full article from
 
 The Financial Times
 500,000
 Copies of
 The Third Industrial Revolution Have Been Printed in China
 Mr. Rifkin's New York Times bestselling book, The Third Industrial
 Revolution, was published in China in June 2012 and was the number one
 bestselling business book, currently with over 500,000 copies in print.
 The Zero Marginal Cost Society Has Now Been Published in 15 Languages!
 
 Click Here For More Information on
 The Zero Marginal Cost Society
 See our TIR Master Plans Website for more information on the TIR
 Consulting Group LLC
 
 
 
 
 SEE JEREMY RIFKIN'S BIOGRAPHY HERE
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Jeremy Rifkin Presents the Keynote Address

Re: [P2P-F] [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament

[Anna Harris]

I am wondering how a basic income (BI) would change the basis of social power? 
I had thought that the reason it is espoused by the right is exactly because it 
is seen as not disrupting any power structures. 

If both a guaranteed minimum income (GMI) and BI were really sufficient to have 
an acceptable living standard, and GMI was a voluntary option, as is BI, then 
the only difference I see is that GMI still requires means testing, a cut off 
point above which it would not apply. 'Means testing!' is a loaded phrase for 
income transparency. Why shouldn't all our incomes be transparent, as 
presumably they are in Sensorica?

Anna



On 16 Feb 2015, at 04:59, Michel Bauwens mic...@p2pfoundation.net wrote:

hi francine,

I have read your essay on the social commons, but cannot imagine anything 
concrete by it , so what exacly is a social commons for welfare and social 
security ..

the guaranteed minimum income will of course not change the  basis of social 
power, as a basic income would do, it's entirely within the logic of the 
current system and leaves the capital-labour relation undisturbed ..

 On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Francine Mestrum mest...@skynet.be wrote:
 Rights are universal, incomes cannot be. I am not in favour of a basic 
 income, but of a guaranteed minimum income for people who cannot earn a 
 living on the labour market. And I propose to re-think our social protection 
 in terms of social commons.
 
  
 
 Francine
 
  
 
 Van: michelsub2...@gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2...@gmail.com] Namens Michel 
 Bauwens
 Verzonden: 16 February 2015 03:58
 Aan: Francine Mestrum
 CC: Anna Harris; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation; 
 Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou; 
 networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
 
 
 Onderwerp: Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek 
 Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
  
 
 interesting,
 
  
 
 you are proposing a basic income that is more basic for some than for others ?
 
  
 
 On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Francine Mestrum mest...@skynet.be wrote:
 
 I fully agree Michel, though we have to be careful with the concept of 
 ‘universalism’. Our human rights are universal, they are for everyone and are 
 indivisible. There can be no question about that. The real question is how 
 you want to achieve/fulfil these rights and what task is given to public 
 authorities. It is wrong to assume that in order to achieve equality we have 
 to treat all people equally (cfr AK Sen). On the contrary, unequal people 
 have to be treated unequally in order to make them equal. It is only one 
 argument against giving all people a same amount of money (basic income) and 
 thinking you then work for equality.
 
  
 
 Francine
 
  
 
 Van: michelsub2...@gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2...@gmail.com] Namens Michel 
 Bauwens
 Verzonden: 13 February 2015 16:59
 Aan: Anna Harris
 CC: Francine Mestrum; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation; 
 Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou; 
 networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
 Onderwerp: Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek 
 Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
 
  
 
 though universal coverage may not seem fair, there is a strategic reason for 
 it, which is why the labour movement fought for it: if everyone benefits, 
 everyone also defends it; the danger is that it is seen as something for the 
 poor and needy, thereby losing the political support of the middle classes,
 
  
 
 abolishing the welfare state and only helping those that deserve it, is in 
 fact the neoliberal agenda and argumentation today,
 
  
 
 Michel
 
  
 
 On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
 
 Thank you Francine. We have long been supporters of UBI here locally, which 
 is part of the Green Party's  manifesto. An allowance which is not means 
 tested, and therefore avoids the expensive structure required for means 
 testing, plus the suspicious atmosphere generated by accusations of fraud, is 
 appealing. But the fact that it is available to those with high incomes, who 
 don't need it, doesn't seem fair.
 
  
 
 I have not had time to read your proposals in detail, social commons 
 certainly brings in other possibilities. Do you have a working group looking 
 at this that I could join? I would like to hear Ursula Huws opinions of this 
 too, since she has written on UBI.
 
  
 
 Anna
 
 
 On 13 Feb 2015, at 05:15, Francine Mestrum mest...@skynet.be wrote:
 
 Dear all,
 
  
 
 Should a commons-oriented economy not be accompanied by a commons-oriented 
 social policy? I have been working in the past years on a project of ‘social 
 commons’, in between traditional social protection and basic income. I just 
 finished a book on the topic, but that obviously is not available yet. In the 
 meantime I send you a contribution for a conference in Spain

Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [commoning] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Francine. We have long been supporters of UBI here locally, which is 
part of the Green Party's  manifesto. An allowance which is not means tested, 
and therefore avoids the expensive structure required for means testing, plus 
the suspicious atmosphere generated by accusations of fraud, is appealing. But 
the fact that it is available to those with high incomes, who don't need it, 
doesn't seem fair.

I have not had time to read your proposals in detail, social commons certainly 
brings in other possibilities. Do you have a working group looking at this that 
I could join? I would like to hear Ursula Huws opinions of this too, since she 
has written on UBI.

Anna



On 13 Feb 2015, at 05:15, Francine Mestrum mest...@skynet.be wrote:

Dear all,
 
Should a commons-oriented economy not be accompanied by a commons-oriented 
social policy? I have been working in the past years on a project of ‘social 
commons’, in between traditional social protection and basic income. I just 
finished a book on the topic, but that obviously is not available yet. In the 
meantime I send you a contribution for a conference in Spain some months ago.
I would be happy if you could take a look at it and give me your comments.
Thanks a lot in advance,
 
Francine Mestrum
Global Social Justice
www.globalsocialjustice.eu
Brussels
 
Van: NetworkedLabour [mailto:networkedlabour-boun...@lists.contrast.org] Namens 
Vasilis Kostakis
Verzonden: 12 February 2015 15:48
Aan: Örsan Şenalp
CC: Vasilis Niaros; networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org; 
ta...@lists.p2pfoundation.net; David Bollier; p2p-foundation; Roberto Verzola; 
Commoning; Eleftherios Kosmas; Wolfgang Hoeschele; George Papanikolaou; 
Commoning List; George Pór
Onderwerp: Re: [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek 
Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
 
Dear all,

With the chance of the Greek vice-president's statement, the RNS asked me to 
write a short article about the Syriza and the Commons. Based on some recent 
posts of mine at the P2Pf blog, the following text might be of interest:

Syriza’s new plan for economic development: a Commons-oriented economy? : 
http://nurkseschool.tumblr.com/post/110811291631/syrizas-new-plan-for-economic-development-a
 
By the way, this year the CommonsFest is taking place in Athens. See more: 
http://commonsfest.info/en/
 
 Best,

Vasilis
 
On 12 February 2015 at 11:28, Örsan Şenalp orsan1...@gmail.com wrote:
There are comrades in the EP, like Tommaso Fattori who can make the
link best, in my opinon, between the commons and syriza. we could may
be ask them?
orsan

On 12 February 2015 at 09:55, George Pór george@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Roberto Verzola rverz...@gn.apc.org
 wrote:

 Perhaps, the next intl conference on the commons should be held in
 Greece...

 Maybe with a focus on fighting for and working with a Partner State, in
 collaboration with our Greek and Spanish commoner friends and
 commons-supporters in Syriza and Podemos...

 george



 On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:52:05 -0700
 Wolfgang Hoeschele whoesch...@commonsabundance.net wrote:

  Dear Friends,
 
  Very interesting discussion!
 
  I wonder is there opportunity (or need) to promote commons or p2p
  concepts directly with the Greek government? How much are they in
  touch with these movements in Greece and internationally? Can it be
  useful to them if networking with us shows EU negotiators that 1)
  there are proponents of a new approach around Europe and elsewhere
  (i.e., Syriza is not alone in searching for new alternatives that
  break the grow like mad or die alternative?), and 2) there are
  actual models that can be implemented and there are people both
  inside and outside Greece who can help make it possible?
 
  It seems to me that there is very little time available for the Greek
  negotiators to achieve a breakthrough and thereby allow space for new
  approaches to flourish in Greece, or else to fail, leading to a
  resumption of austerity policies (with, I fear, disastrous results
  for Greek politics, because I have no idea to whom Greek voters would
  then turn). So, if we can do something internationally to help in
  this process, it might be very important to do so now. Since there
  are Greek participants in this list, I would very much like to hear
  from you what you think about this.
 
  By the way, personally this also interests me because as a teenager,
  when my father was working in Athens, I lived there - so there is
  that personal connection!
 
  Best wishes,
  Wolfgang
 
 
   Original Message 
  Subject: Re: [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely
  endorses commons strategy before parliament
  From: George Papanikolaou georgepap...@gmail.com
  Date: Wed, February 11, 2015 10:09 pm
  To: Eleftherios Kosmas elkos...@gmail.com
  Cc: Vasilis Kostakis kostaki...@gmail.com,
  p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org, Commoning
  

Re: [P2P-F] [commoning] The Co-operative University

[Anna Harris]

Thank you Dante for the quotation (from a talk by John
McKnighthttp://web.archive.org/web/20050207124554/http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/lec-mck.htmlin
Annual Schumacher lectures 1984) and as always your inspiring
dedication
to what is really *alive* in us.

I think Sam you are underestimating 'where people are at now'. It doesn't
take much for people to see through the professional accreditation system,
witness all the alternative knowledge systems that are burgeoning on the
web. Support people in discovering what they already know, and their
concept of themselves as failures as defined by mainstream culture, will
dissipate. Apathy is taught in our culture from the nursery when children
are discouraged from following their own interests, in favour of a
curriculum. Changing the curriculum, ie still needing to learn what someone
else thinks is important, does not get to the core of the distortion, if at
every level we are taught that what we want is inappropriate and
unavailable.

It is true that the urge, the thirst for knowledge, can get so suppressed
that it is difficult to see any vestige of it in the routines of the daily
lives of ourselves and those around us. Yet it is there, and it is up to us
to nurse that spark, to focus what energy we can on keeping it alive.

Anna


Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2013, at 20:14, Dante-Gabryell Monson dante.mon...@gmail.com
wrote:

Thanks Sam

Yes, I understand this.
No worries, you are not too much ahead of me ;)
( if such thing ever exists ? Ever noticed yourself remembering what you
understood when you where a child ... but forgot ? )

I remember past exchanges with you, always finding them very inspiring.
Likely nothing new - but re-contextualizing :

Independently from personal strategies ( including the potential influence
of disillusion , and social pressures ) for shared action in a debt based
tributary system,

I believe we can see potentials for synergies between narratives.

I do understand and see a Cooperative alternative to a Corporate
university system as certainly useful ( if but only to regain some control
and better re-distribute income ),
even if certain of such cooperative learning institutions may recycle and
build themselves on selling prospects for monetization of credentials
throughout career based narratives.

Yet do they apply for most of the populations of the world ?

Is it even realistic to want to spread it out as an example.   Perhaps
rather see it as a mere improvement on the infrastructures supporting a
current ( yet rapidly changing ) narrative and learning approach ?

I hoped such processes will happen in full awareness, while keeping in mind
other narratives with whom to overlap to support shared intentions.

You probably noticed this list - many of whom are still in a monetized
paradigm, yet with potential towards overlap with other narratives -
http://emergentbydesign.com/2012/01/08/93-superhero-schools-collaboratories-incubators-accelerators-hubs-for-social-tech-innovation/

I already see this as a shift in narratives and social design, which likely
can relate to the process this thread is about ? These seem to be reaching
sufficient support as to become credible in the eyes of mainstream,
converging in some cases californian tech start-up incubation narratives.

The narrative supported in my last message is one many of us on this list
may know about - the small is beautiful narrative -

combined with that of converging the itinerant of
an information rich NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET / Precariat /
Freeter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeter /
NINJAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Income_No_AssetGeneration ,

and experimenting with neo-nomadic infrastructures, or relays. ( examples
may be https://embassynetwork.com/ , http://nomadbase.org/ )

The new Pope of the Catholic Church seems to have consciously chosen to
build on the narrative of Francis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi  ( which has counterparts in
other cultures ).

There, too, there may be some overlap to find ;)

So, looking forward to find overlaps between the narratives we may each
choose to focus on, in support of shared collective intelligence and the
commons.

Cordially,
Dante


On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Samuel Rose samuel.r...@gmail.com wrote:

 Interesting.

 I feel like years ago I started where you are coming from in this message.
 Then, over time I came to the conclusion that here in my environment very
 few are in a position to evolve in the way you describe.

 I don't think it is incumbent on me to fasten to any worldview. Rather it
 has been more effective for me to create the conditions for change. For me,
 this has meant starting from where people are at now.


 On Saturday, December 14, 2013, Dante-Gabryell Monson wrote:

 interesting thread - thanks to all

 personal note - I hope your actions can evolve towards , or include
 awareness and support for :

 * uncommodified, unmanaged, and uncurricularized *

 

Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: Wired : learner centered movement

[Anna Harris]

Thank you June, I felt we were really in tune. But can you enlarge on your
last point - why does it have to be systematised? IMO that's where it falls
down, thinking that there must be a formula. There isn't. Even that number
12 you quoted is full of 'shoulds' that could be used to impose or
undermine. There is no substitute for direct on-the-job experience, which
cannot be used to extrapolate a theory to use for the next time. Each
moment is unique. That's why we need human beings as well as computers.
Computers give us information but only we can feel and understand its
significance.

Anna


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, June Gorman june_gor...@sbcglobal.netwrote:

 I grant your point, Anna and am far more aligned with it than not.  That
 is why the 12th Principle of the TEF is my favorite:

 *Principle 12: Sanctity of Human Learning and Life*
 The learning environment shall be sacred, trust in the wisdom of
 imagination, teach the wonder and potential of every human child, the
 interrelationship of life and that we can no longer afford to live with
 privileged disregard of this planet, all its diverse and valuable species
 and each other.


 As a 30+ year teacher, I can honestly and most sincerely say everything
 truly important I learned about education, I learned from the children and
 students themselves.  Mostly, how much the way I had been taught to teach
 and was the best way to learn applied to very few of the actual human
 beings in front of me who, as true of every child born to the earth, loved
 learning as a natural a priori for the most learning-dependent species on
 the planet.  Before often being destroyed by our often very rigid
 educational systems.

 I spent all the years after my own elite education trying to learn from
 them how to really teach what they were interested in learning and more
 importantly, without doing their innate joy and passion in learning, damage.

 Yes, I think we could easily replace all Teacher Education with a better
 study of how children prefer to and thrive most in education, by
 understanding and then choosing their own best way to learn and what most
 matters to them to learn.

 But you are still going to have to systemize that education, even if the
 children are some of the prime contributors to it.  :-)

 June
   --
  *From:* Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk
 *To:* dante.mon...@gmail.com; P2P Foundation mailing list 
 p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
 *Cc:* June Gorman june_gor...@sbcglobal.net; Myra Jackson 
 mljac...@gmail.com
 *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:02 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: Wired : learner centered movement

 This is an interesting discussion, but seems to be leaving out the most
 important element, consulting the child. Child centered really means the
 child in charge, trusting the child to make decisions and learn from
 mistakes.

 While I understand your concern June, my child self feels constricted by
 all these principles. TEF seems to have a very clear idea of what it is
 trying to produce. Has it asked the child? It seems to have been decided
 what is best for the child, and for society. Certainly more respectful but
 still a top down decision.

 Do we really need to stipulate anything? Could we just follow the child,
 learn from the child? That doesn't mean abnegating my own interaction and
 involvement, but that must always be strictly as an equal, not to dictate
 because of my superior age and experience. This is not easy. We think we
 know. We feel responsible. Huge learning for the adult is involved.

 And there is still some sort of social demand that the child be 'useful to
 society', Leave them alone, let them be free. We have done enough damage.

 Anna



 On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson 
 dante.mon...@gmail.com wrote:


 Hi June,

 Thanks for your reply,

 I personally do not see this as a replacement of humans by the machines.

 I rather see the internet as a powerful tool for access to information,
 both supporting and facilitated by dynamics between learners.

 I believe that the pedagogies it can be inspired of are that of Piaget,
 Montessori, ...

 And as Marco underlined, hardly any new self learning ( or mutual learning
 ) approaches.

 What is new, is possibly broader mainstream recognition, possibly
 supported by the more widespread usage and interconnection of information
 technologies globally, and in peoples lifestyles, facilitating a shift away
 of the expert, or the teacher as monopoly in terms of knowledge.

 Such approaches have been central in my own learning - up to a point where
 I felt I could learn faster / feel less alienated in my learning by leaving
 school.

 The challenge, then, for me at least, is to build up recognition through
 networked approaches, with peers, rather then through top down ,
 centralized certification programs and education environments.

 Although one may argue that the tests could at some point confirm

[P2P-F] Is Victory at Hand?

[Anna Harris]

Interesting article by Paul Gilding, ex CEO of Greenpeace International:

http://paulgilding.com/cockatoo-chronicles/victoryathand.html
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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: [Networkedlabour] Capitalism, Internet, Democracy, Fascism

[Anna Harris]

 what is emerging veers toward a classic definition of fascism: the state
and large corporations working hand in hand to promote corporate interests,
and a state preoccupied with militarism, secrecy, propaganda and
surveillance.

This is emerging precisely because we have an internet. What is emerging is
not new, but now it can be seen clearly.  I cannot argue with this
'scholarly' analysis, but it does seem very one-sided. Yes what we see on
the internet mirrors the world in which it exists. But the internet has
transformed my life and the lives of many others.

Anna

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Michel Bauwens
mic...@p2pfoundation.netwrote:



 -- Forwarded message --
 From: peter waterman peterwaterman1...@gmail.com
 Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 3:37 PM
 Subject: [Networkedlabour] Capitalism, Internet, Democracy, Fascism
 To: networkedlab...@lists.contrast.org


 [image: rabble.ca]
 Published on *rabble.ca* (http://rabble.ca)

 Home http://rabble.ca/  Digital revolution: 'Digital Disconnect'
 analyzes corporate control of our digital communications future
 --
   Digital Communicationhttp://rabble.ca/category/slug/digital-communication
 [1]
 Digital revolution: 'Digital Disconnect' analyzes corporate control of our
 digital communications future Why a broad, progressive movement is needed
 to reform our Internet
 By
 Greg Macdougall http://rabble.ca/taxonomy/term/7741 [2]
 | August 1, 2013
   [image: image/jpeg 
 icon]cover.jpghttp://rabble.ca/sites/rabble/files/node-images/cover_6.jpg
 [7]
  Digital Disconnect: How Capitalism is Turning the Internet Against
 Democracy
 by Robert W. McChesney
 (The New Press,
 2013;
 $27.95)

 *Digital Disconnect: How Capitalism is Turning the Internet Against
 Democracyhttp://thenewpress.com/index.php?option=com_titletask=view_titlemetaproductid=1878
 [8] *discusses how politics and the capitalist* economic system of the
 United States has very much warped the initial vision and potential of a
 non-commercial democratic Internet. In it noted scholar and activist Robert
 W. McChesney does a good job of illustrating the banana republic -- that
 is the corporately-controlled -- status of the U.S. state.

 Beyond just communication media, McChesney describes how for the overall
 society, what is emerging veers toward a classic definition of fascism:
 the state and large corporations working hand in hand to promote corporate
 interests, and a state preoccupied with militarism, secrecy, propaganda and
 surveillance. And this understanding of U.S. society is very important in
 understanding the business of the Internet.

 McChesney cites a scene from *The Godfather II* where the gangsters meet
 to divide up their control of Cuba and then show their appreciation for how
 nice it is to be working in a country with a friendly government that
 knows how to work with 'private enterprise' -- this, McChesney says, is an
 apt analogy showing the true nature of who controls the Internet and the
 trend of continuing (and increased) consolidation of this control.

 *Digital Disconnect *aims to bring a political economy analysis to our
 digital media communication future. Specifically, McChesney describes and
 applies a political economy of communication (PEC) that evaluates media
 and communication systems by determining how they affect political and
 social power in society and whether they are, on balance, forces for or
 against democracy and successful self-government.

 And he notes that how a society chooses to structure its media system is
 of paramount importance.

 Personally, I’ve always liked a quote of McChesney’s: regardless of what
 a progressive group's first issue of importance is, its second issue should
 be media and communication, because so long as the media is in corporate
 hands, the task of social change will be vastly more difficult, if not
 impossible, across the board.

 This quote frames the importance of *Digital Disconnect*; it provides a
 deep analysis of the contributing factors and potential ways forward in
 relation to what has become such a vital element in shaping our societies
 and the way the future will develop.

 McChesney starts off by describing and examining the different sets of
 views -- from the celebrants and the skeptics -- about the Internet’s
 potential and impact upon society. McChesney then adds that a critical
 omission was that most of these people did not have a sufficient analysis
 of the impact of capitalism* and the effect it has had on the development
 of the Internet.

 And then McChesney gets to the (*) on capitalism.

 The fact that theoretical capitalism, or capitalism by standard definition
 or catechism, does not equal the same thing as what we actually have -- or
 as he puts it, really existing capitalism.

 The second chapter explores this really existing capitalist economic
 system that exists in the U.S. and elsewhere, with specific aim of how it
 is relevant to the 

[P2P-F] US trade deals threaten basic standards

[Anna Harris]

America's trade agreements reveal corporate world takeover plans.

*GMOs coming in the back door -US EU trade deal**
*

*'The biggest challenge would be finding the political will to surmount
challenges like the European public's rejection of genetically modified
foods and seed that the United States wants to export, Schott said.*
* *

*I think there's room for compromise and constructive agreement, he
added.'*

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/us-economy-trade.mda

*Plus Scary Transpacific Partnership
dealhttp://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/love-and-the-apocalypse/why-the-transpacific-partnership-is-a-really-really-big-deal?utm_source=wkly20130510utm_medium=email
*

'*Leaked documents show how extensive the reach of the TPP would be. It is
shaping up as a corporate takeover of public policy that would impact safe
food, sustainable jobs, clean water and air, access to life-saving
medicines, education, even our very democracy.'*


Anna*
*
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Re: [P2P-F] The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith

[Anna Harris]

I can't help feeling that this praise of the monastic tradition is
something to do with the predominance of men in IT. A sort of Men's club,
or perhaps Gentleman's Club, a bit like the military, which along with
powerful institutions like the monarchy and imperialism could equally well
be justified in terms of providing a service to the communities of which
they were a part.

The lack of corruption would be more difficult to validate. There have been
many stories of 'celibate' groups finding hidden ways to express their
sexual desires, usually involving exploiting inferior groups. Witnesss the
revelations of abuse in the catholic church.

When intellectual knowledge is divorced from its real foundation in the
world I would guess that its contribution to lay society would tend to be
less healthy and less sustainable.  But perhaps you could give an example?

Anna


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Kevin F kev.flana...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Anna,

 Monastics also provided services to the communities of which they are
 a part. In the past the monasteries were great repositories of
 knowledge. They were not limited to scriptural works alone. In the pre
 print era scribes also produced copies of philosophical, technical and
 historical works. They provided opportunities for people to educate
 themselves and in turn those same people became stewards of that
 knowledge which was of general benefit to communities that grew up
 around the monasteries.
 Now as you say it is true that as celibate institutions they fail to
 reproduce themselves. However it can also be said that the knowledge
 of which the monasteries were caretakers contributed to the
 sustainability and in turn the re-productivity of the lay communities
 and that seeing monasteries as socially valuable in this way was one
 reason people from those communities chose to join.
 Of course this is not the only motivation to join. For some it was to
 pursue the spiritual life, for others it was to escape poverty, while
 others joined because of social or family pressure.
 One of the big rules was that monks and nuns should not own property.
 If monks or nuns were to have families things become more complicated
 as humans tend to look out for the welfare of their own before that of
 the community as a whole. One of the arguments for celibacy in the
 church is that it acts as an anti corruption measure. When Priests,
 Abbots and Nuns have families it is easy for mini dynasties to emerge
 as quite quickly it is the son of the Abbot who inherits his fathers
 prestigious and influential role. This situation is avoided when they
 are required to be celibate.
 The other advantage of a celibate community is that its members have
 more time to focus on intellectual work. When this is applied to
 technical problems, inventive and innovative solutions can be shared,
 improving the health and sustainability of the broader lay community.
 All of these dynamics change as societies become better off. Today we
 no longer depend on monasteries to preserve and reproduce important
 texts. Nor do we depend on them for education or health. None of this
 was true 500 years ago. As the quality of life improves for people
 across the globe the appeal of monastic life is waning. Everywhere
 fewer and fewer young people are taking vocations. The tables have
 turned in a way. While at one time communities depended on monasteries
  today most monasteries depend heavily on charity. What they have to
 offer society more generally has come into question and their futures
 are indeed uncertain.
 I do not wish to romanticise the historical role of monasteries, I
 just want to point out that their social function has changed over
 time. While I agree that today these institutions have become in some
 sense parasitic my point is that it was not always so.
 What I gained from reading this paper was more from the analysis of
 incentives and motivations both of which can be applied to analysis of
 intentional communities. Also worth considering is the power of shared
 values that may be not be so strong in more secular arrangements.

 Regards

 Kevin


 On 30 January 2013 19:22, Anna Harris a...@shsh.co.uk wrote:
  The element left out of this analysis is the fact that monasteries are
  single sex establishments which do not have to cope with child rearing.
 They
  are therefor parasitic in the sense that they live off the produce of the
  society at large which provides them with the personnel while leaving
 them
  free to indulge in their 'spiritual capital'.
 
  There is no doubt in my mind that child rearing is the most difficult and
  undervalued profession, since it is performed in the main voluntarily by
  untrained people out of love, and therefore does not appear to require
 any
  specific investment. Consequently it can be ignored as in the above
  discussion as though living in a secular socialist commune could be
 compared
  to living in a monastery.
 
  I am not decrying the need

Re: [P2P-F] The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith

[Anna Harris]

The element left out of this analysis is the fact that monasteries are
single sex establishments which do not have to cope with child rearing.
They are therefor parasitic in the sense that they live off the produce of
the society at large which provides them with the personnel while leaving
them free to indulge in their 'spiritual capital'.

There is no doubt in my mind that child rearing is the most difficult and
undervalued profession, since it is performed in the main voluntarily by
untrained people out of love, and therefore does not appear to require any
specific investment. Consequently it can be ignored as in the above
discussion as though living in a secular socialist commune could be
compared to living in a monastery.

I am not decrying the need for a spiritual element in helping to sustain
indivuals and groups. Indeed I think it is essential to bring meaning in
the present situation of imminent 'collapse of civilisation', but it needs
to be able to be interwoven into our everyday lives, not hived off into
separate cloisters which may be beneficial for the inmates but do not
really contribute to the sustenance of the rest of us.

Anna

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Kevin F kev.flana...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,

 I've been reading 'The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith' over
 the past week. He makes some interesting points in comparing the
 sustainability of intentional communities with that of Christian
 monasteries. Citing a study by Rost et al (2008) that
 An average longevity of 463 years makes monasteries more durable not
 only than firms, but even than most states. and further suggesting
 possibilities as to what makes them so successful.

 I will add it to the wiki when I get a chance over the coming days.

 The Economics of Monasticism - Nathan Smith

 Since their emergence in ancient times, Christian monasteries have
 proven to be among the most durable of all human institutions, and in
 the medieval centuries made enormous contributions to the emergence of
 Western civilization. They are organized internally on socialist
 lines: monks own no property and owe total obedience to the abbot,
 making the monastery a miniature ‘centrally planned economy.’ A
 puzzling contrast exists between the longevity of monasteries and the
 transience of secular socialist communes. This paper presents a
 theoretical model which shows why voluntary socialist communes might
 be viable despite ‘shirking’ problems, yet fail due to turnover, and
 how worship, which induces people with high ‘spiritual capital’ to
 self-select into the monastery and then grows that spiritual capital
 through ‘learning-by-doing,’ can solve the turnover problem and make a
 worship-based socialist commune—a monastery—stable. Monasticism, like
 the market, is a form of ‘spontaneous order,’ but unlike the market,
 it does not depend on third-party enforcement (e.g., by a state) to
 function: this explains why monasticism (unlike capitalism) was able
 to thrive in the anarchic Dark Ages. Monasteries, in principle and
 largely in practice, are a form of society based on consent of the
 governed, unlike liberal states which preach but do not practice
 consensual governance, and it is interesting to juxtapose the real,
 live ‘social contracts’ of the monasteries with the notional social
 contracts of liberal political theory.

 http://www.thearda.com/workingpapers/monasticism.asp

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Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: Ancient Athens didn't have politicians. Is there a lesson for us?

[Anna Harris]

A basic income http://p2pfoundation.net/Basic_Income  would allow people to
take part in governance, ie a random selected group to focus for a week on
a particular issue. It would also deal with the problem of *over
production*which is endemic in developed countries, and avoid the
focus on providing
jobs, as the necessary solution to poverty, which contributes to increasing
production, accompanied by exhorting people to consume more than they need.

Anna

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Orsan Senalp orsan1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Since the demise of the Athenian model -which was physically made
 possible thanks to the slave labour so that every citizen had the time
 to govern or learn how to govern things when their turn came up- the
 question is still how to get rid of kaisers, cesars, sultans, kings,
 chars, empires, presidents, ministers etc that capture the social
 power and turn against the people. A political economy equation
 underlies this question of course which involves several sub
 questions: i. how to convince the bullying social class elements who
 socialise and continuously and creatively reproduce themselves through
 complex historical structures, ii. how to de-construct these
 structures and transform them into new version of Athenian models that
 work transnationally as well as in their own contexts, iii. and what
 is the productive model that will allow people to take role in such
 modern direct governance models so they could function.


 On 11 January 2013 20:14, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Letting people literally become the state is the best way to protect
  Democracy. But how efficient is this?
 
  The good thing is that today we have the internet and thus it is much
 easier
  to have a decentralized state by the people, thus solutions like these
 could
  for some things scale without costing a lot.
 
  I wonder if there has been any mathematical research for the amount of
  decentralization that is required so that a hegemonic class doesnt
 emerge.
 
  I'd prefer it to be mathematical because I know a lot of opinions on this
  matter which are always interrelated with one's political
  agenda.(reformist,anarchist,revolutionary marxist,capitalist)
  .
 
  2013/1/11 George Dafermos - TBM g.n.dafer...@tudelft.nl
 
  i suppose that was probably meant as a joke, right?
  x,
  g.
 
 
  No, at least for America where we have a Constitution of, by and for
  the People.  Athens didn't have a government of the People.
  
  mark
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  --
 
 
  Sincerely yours,
 
   Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
 
 
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