Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 14, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Pretty much a wrap up for the theoretical discussion in this thread: my Toyota Prius was delivered late Friday. ... I'll post just this one last data point from practical use, for those who might be interested, as the last message on this thread line since it spawned so much conversation. The LED fuel gauge hit one pip out of ten at about 395 miles. I have a bit of traveling to do today so I decided to fill the tank rather than wait for it to reach the Low Fuel warning blinker point. Statistics: Delivered with 2 miles on odo, full tank. (total fuel capacity is said to be 11.7 US gallons) First refuel at 398 miles on odo was 9.173 US gallons, 43.2 mpg average. (for the non US readers, that's 51.8 MPImpG or 5.4L per 100 KM if I got my conversion units correct). That's darn good seeing as it's been a week of running many short hops, two longish round trips through normal midday traffic hell, AC on most of the time, etc. It's about double what my best fuel economy with the Freelander was. And the Prius is quieter, easier to park, rides better, easier to get in and out of, and seemingly holds more cargo/passengers. And has a ton of interesting doo-dads (fancy-dancy stereo, hands free cell phone integration, energy and economy display, etc.) to keep you entertained en route. I'm pleased. :-) Now back to photography ... Hope to see some of you at the reception this evening! Godfrey Traveler In London - http://www.gdgphoto.com/traveler/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for the non US readers, that's 51.8 MPImpG or 5.4L per 100 KM if I got my conversion units correct). That's darn good seeing as it's been a week of running many short hops, two longish round trips through normal midday traffic hell, AC on most of the time, etc. Huh??? virtually any diesel car will run on significantly less. My Audi A6, which is a large car compared to a Prius, can run down to 0.43 and I'm never over 0.5 l/km; in fact usually I'm at 0.48 - 0.47. It is also 7 years old and have run 230 000 km. Pål -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0.5 l/km is about ten times the fuel consumption of 5.4L per 100 Km ... I meant L/10km -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:32:22PM +0200, P?l Jensen wrote: - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for the non US readers, that's 51.8 MPImpG or 5.4L per 100 KM if I got my conversion units correct). That's darn good seeing as it's been a week of running many short hops, two longish round trips through normal midday traffic hell, AC on most of the time, etc. Huh??? virtually any diesel car will run on significantly less. My Audi A6, which is a large car compared to a Prius, can run down to 0.43 and I'm never over 0.5 l/km; in fact usually I'm at 0.48 - 0.47. It is also 7 years old and have run 230 000 km. 0.5 l/km is about ten times the fuel consumption of 5.4L per 100 Km ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
By the metric you state below, your car uses about 10x the fuel that the Prius does. I presume you mean to say L per 10Km, although I fail to understand why you don't list L per 100Km like virtually all the fuel economy statistics do. It's irrelevant, though, as the diesel A6 is/was not available in the US, never mind the difference in its operating emissions output. BTW: On similar sized (to the A6) diesel automobiles I've rented in the UK, the fuel economy has never been anywhere near the numbers you're quoting. 30-40 miles per Imp gallon is what I've seen. My old Peugeot 504D ran 32 MPG (US gallons) as an average. Godfrey On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Pål Jensen wrote: - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for the non US readers, that's 51.8 MPImpG or 5.4L per 100 KM if I got my conversion units correct). That's darn good seeing as it's been a week of running many short hops, two longish round trips through normal midday traffic hell, AC on most of the time, etc. Huh??? virtually any diesel car will run on significantly less. My Audi A6, which is a large car compared to a Prius, can run down to 0.43 and I'm never over 0.5 l/km; in fact usually I'm at 0.48 - 0.47. It is also 7 years old and have run 230 000 km. Pål -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
Photography is not rocket science. Tang is rocket science. So is Velcro. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system) Of course it's not rocket science... as Bill Robb said (my favorite all time quote from him). Photography is not rocket science. Tang is rocket science. Tom C. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:31:22 +0100 Wheatfield Pearl? Is that a rather subtle in-joke? Nice looking car, though. John On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:15:07 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
But Teflon® is not... Kenneth Waller wrote: Photography is not rocket science. Tang is rocket science. So is Velcro. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system) Of course it's not rocket science... as Bill Robb said (my favorite all time quote from him). Photography is not rocket science. Tang is rocket science. Tom C. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:31:22 +0100 Wheatfield Pearl? Is that a rather subtle in-joke? Nice looking car, though. John On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:15:07 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Love the limited DOF in the third shot. Very trendy - it seems to be an in *look* for advertising photography these days. Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. That was my impression when I test drove one. I told Dr. T that it was like a space ship. Our dealer has another one in stock so I'm hoping she'll be able to take it for a test drive tomorrow. -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
Wheatfield Pearl? Is that a rather subtle in-joke? Nice looking car, though. John On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:15:07 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
Of course it's not rocket science... as Bill Robb said (my favorite all time quote from him). Photography is not rocket science. Tang is rocket science. Tom C. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. From: John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:31:22 +0100 Wheatfield Pearl? Is that a rather subtle in-joke? Nice looking car, though. John On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:15:07 +0100, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
On Aug 18, 2006, at 12:31 PM, John Forbes wrote: Wheatfield Pearl? Is that a rather subtle in-joke? Nice looking car, though. Thanks. The names of the colors in car brochures really make me laugh, I can't remember them correctly to save my life. I keep saying Wheatfield Pearl when it's really Driftwood Pearl (I've corrected my page now...). The Prius is available in: Super White Classic Silver Metallic Magnetic Gray Driftwood Pearl Barcelona Red Metallic Silver Pine Mica Seaside Pearl Black I'd call them white, silver, dark metallic gray, gold, metallic red, metallic green, metallic blue and black. I adhere to the Crayola Color Non-Obfuscation Guidelines. ;-) Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
I saw one in that metallic red with the sporty options - bigger tires and wheels, alloy rims - VERY Kool! Shel [Original Message] From: Godfrey DiGiorgi The Prius is available in: Super White Classic Silver Metallic Magnetic Gray Driftwood Pearl Barcelona Red Metallic Silver Pine Mica Seaside Pearl Black -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: The names of the colors in car brochures really make me laugh, I can't remember them correctly to save my life. I keep saying Wheatfield Pearl when it's really Driftwood Pearl (I've corrected my page now...). Sorry pal, but it's too late for corrections at this point. You *know* it's gonna be Wheatfield Pearl from now on as far as anyone here is concerned! -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
On Aug 18, 2006, at 1:29 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Sorry pal, but it's too late for corrections at this point. You *know* it's gonna be Wheatfield Pearl from now on as far as anyone here is concerned! That's fine by me. I keep calling it that anyway... ;-) Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
On 8/18/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GEST = Gallery Every So Toyota ;-) All I had with me in the bag the other day was the Fuji F30 and I needed to get a couple of snaps of the new car to send to my mom and friends, so what the heck? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ Amusing as all heck if not sporty. It's more computer than automobile. I keep waiting for Marvin The Paranoid Android to open the door for me. Still on the first tankful of fuel, 380 miles and two pips on the gauge (out of ten) left to go. That should be about 45 mpg for starters. Drives nice, handles well. The Fuji F30 is about the same color, takes a darn nice snapshot. :-) enjoy Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net I agree with Mark. #3 is very nice. Take some interior shots. The Toyota brochure photos are rather dull. Show us the cockpit, man! -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: GEST: pictures (was: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system)
On Aug 18, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Scott Loveless wrote: http://homepage.mac.com/godders/prius-new/ I agree with Mark. #3 is very nice. Take some interior shots. The Toyota brochure photos are rather dull. Show us the cockpit, man! Okay ... but not until next week. I'm running my butt off getting things ready for the Traveler In London reception tomorrow evening. I hope to see some folks from the PDML there! ... :-) Godfrey http://www.gdgphoto.com/traveler/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Pretty much a wrap up for the theoretical discussion in this thread: my Toyota Prius was delivered late Friday. I've been pretty busy the past few days but I finally got to drive it a bit on the 70+ mile round trip to where I've hung my current photo exhibit. I have 190 miles on the odometer now, it had 2 when I picked it up. It meets or exceeds my expectations so far: - Performance is more than satisfactory, at least as good as the Land Rover Freelander overall. Handling is good ... It's not a sport sedan but given the ride and quiet, it handles well: predictable, stable, good grip in the corners, tight turning radius, easy to manage. It has excellent cruise and passing power for highway driving between 65 and 85 mph. The drive system works brilliantly too, you just drive it and it does all the business seamlessly, smoothly. - Load capacity surprises me. I put the 16 16x20-framed photos for the exhibit, my trolley cart to roll them around on, two bags of installation goodies and equipment, plus my briefcase with camera, notebook, etc all into the rear cargo area without having to even flip the rear seats down. Nothing was in the rear seats. That's better than could fit into the Land Rover ... I always had to flip down the rear seats for that size load. - Ride comfort and quiet are excellent, you can actually enjoy the sound system (also excellent) due to the isolation from road and traffic noise. The climate control system works very well, although we haven't had temperatures like the heat wave of several weeks ago this past weekend. The seats are comfy if a little short under my thigh (I have long legs). All controls and such work with a light precise touch, are easy to find. It has a *lot* of features with the #6 option package, will likely take me several weeks to understand all of them. The hands-free Bluetooth cell phone control package is next on the list to read about in the manual... - After 190 miles, I'm down to about 3/4 tank on the gauge from full ... The Freelander had a bigger fuel tank (15 gallons) and would be down to about 1/4 tank at this mileage: I'd be looking to refill it in the next 30-40 miles at most. According to the consumption monitor, I'm averaging 44-45 mpg at present. That's pretty amazing considering that I've done nothing to optimize my driving for fuel efficiency and it seems to have more space, comfort and about the same performance. I think the Prius will easily go 400-450 miles on a 10-gallon tank of fuel, that's a very welcome change. I'm very pleased with it for an initial impression. A very nice car that suits my goals well. Godfrey BTW: My exhibit Traveler In London is now hanging at the Zocalo Cafe in San Leandro. 16 color prints, 11x14 matted/framed to 16x20. The reception is scheduled for Saturday, August 19, 6:30 to 9:00 pm. An official announcement and website link will be sent shortly. Hope to see some of you there! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Op Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:56:44 +0200 schreef graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I almost did that, luckily I thought a moment before posting. MTBF, and MTTF are not the same thing. MTBF is Mean Time Before Failure which is the average time before needing repair. MTTF is Mean Time until Total Failure which is the average time until it is no longer repairable. Mean Time To Failure (to the first failure, that is) and Mean Time Between Failures, they taught me. The first generally being longer than the second. -- Regards, Lucas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Your wording for the acronym it actually correct. Mine is more correct for meaning. MTBF is time until a repairable failure. MTTF is time to an unrepairable failure (or, in other words, the usable lifetime of the object). Here is a site (the first one google brought up) that makes this clear: http://www.i-mtbf.com/ One should note that mean is a simple average. A particular object may fail out of the box, or last virtually forever. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Lucas Rijnders wrote: Op Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:56:44 +0200 schreef graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I almost did that, luckily I thought a moment before posting. MTBF, and MTTF are not the same thing. MTBF is Mean Time Before Failure which is the average time before needing repair. MTTF is Mean Time until Total Failure which is the average time until it is no longer repairable. Mean Time To Failure (to the first failure, that is) and Mean Time Between Failures, they taught me. The first generally being longer than the second. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
What would you expect to see in a car of similar age with lower mileage? I don't know, that's why I posted the question. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in battery technology might have a feel for the effects of a high mileage vehicle's battery condition vs a similarly old vehicle with relatively low mileage. I'm thinking of the possible effects of many charging cycles vs a lot less. I'm not sure why this is such a thing to ponder. It seems to me that high-mileage cars have always been looked at to see what wears out or causes problems rather than normal to low mileage cars. In general, if a high-mileage car properly maintained is working normally and proving durable, one tends to extrapolate that same- model normal/low mileage cars properly maintained will be reliable and durable. Yes, but I'm thinking battery technology. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system On Aug 8, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: I would suspect whatever effect it has is of only minor significance My point is it may have major signicance. I don't know but it is a point to ponder. Would be interesting to have another data point, with same time in use but something closer to a normal amount of mileage. John's high high mileage numbers are on a HSD Prius purchased on 10/23/2003. If you go to his top level page, http://john1701a.com/, you can see links to other Prius owners' information. What would you expect to see in a car of similar age with lower mileage? Said another way, if a 2003-2004 car is continuing to operate as normal with 230,000+ mileage, what would you be looking to see as difference for the same year car with ~30-40K miles on the odometer? and how would you attribute the effect of John's high mileage on the battery by that difference? I'm not sure why this is such a thing to ponder. It seems to me that high-mileage cars have always been looked at to see what wears out or causes problems rather than normal to low mileage cars. In general, if a high-mileage car properly maintained is working normally and proving durable, one tends to extrapolate that same- model normal/low mileage cars properly maintained will be reliable and durable. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 9, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Kenneth Waller wrote: What would you expect to see in a car of similar age with lower mileage? I don't know, that's why I posted the question. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in battery technology might have a feel for the effects of a high mileage vehicle's battery condition vs a similarly old vehicle with relatively low mileage. I'm thinking of the possible effects of many charging cycles vs a lot less. You should hunt around the rest of John's website ... there are pages and links to a lot of technical information about the drive system. It's pointed out in other technical references to the Synergy Drive System that the design of the system is prioritized to preserve and benefit the battery to the greatest extent possible, as well as to mask aging issues. The control system monitors battery state, prevents as much as possible high drain as well as low charge conditions, and balances power generation using the ICE to supply current for the needs of the drive system as well as other accessories to accomplish this. The drive system is not designed to operate on battery alone: it is a relatively small capacity battery relative to a full electric car's design and can power the drive system for only a short period (up to a mile or so) before being fully depleted. The ICE and power generation control is essential to operation for anything other than limited uses. As the drive battery ages and capacity/current delivery is diminished, the control system takes this into account and uses more power generation using the ICE to compensate for the battery degradation. A battery with 10,000 charge/recharge cycles on it, even though it has (theoretically) perhaps only 80% of its original capacity and current delivery capability, should be capable of powering the car with very little to no noticeable difference in operation. The differences would show up ultimately, as the battery capacity continues to diminish, as increased fuel consumption as the ICE would be delivering more power generation required for operation of the electric drive motors. Given the sophistication of the control system at masking normal degradation of the battery over many cycles like this, I suspect that it would be difficult to see any difference between how John's car operates with its very high mileage/many cycles battery vs a much lower mileage example. You'd likely have to do diagnostics on the battery itself to see much difference, or higher resolution monitoring of the fuel economy. John provides the available data from his car on other pages on his site, as do some other users, so perhaps collating and comparing them would bear this out. I imagine that the limit of use is when the battery's capacity and current delivery drops below the threshold that will run the system without undue strain on the other components or produces severely reduced initial acceleration (since the battery and electric drive motors are the primary power source for starting from rest, the engine is geared too high to supply adequate torque at starting speeds). fun stuff. I'm enjoying learning about this car immensely. Just a few more days and I'll be driving mine ... then I can tell you from a practical standpoint of use what I think about it. ;-) Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I believe the Hybrid Escape uses a drive system very similar, if not identical to the Toyota. I drove an early production Escape was totally impressed with the transparency of the system. - when it switched between electric combustion power. Low end power on all electric propulsion was impressive. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system On Aug 9, 2006, at 11:57 AM, Kenneth Waller wrote: What would you expect to see in a car of similar age with lower mileage? I don't know, that's why I posted the question. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in battery technology might have a feel for the effects of a high mileage vehicle's battery condition vs a similarly old vehicle with relatively low mileage. I'm thinking of the possible effects of many charging cycles vs a lot less. You should hunt around the rest of John's website ... there are pages and links to a lot of technical information about the drive system. It's pointed out in other technical references to the Synergy Drive System that the design of the system is prioritized to preserve and benefit the battery to the greatest extent possible, as well as to mask aging issues. The control system monitors battery state, prevents as much as possible high drain as well as low charge conditions, and balances power generation using the ICE to supply current for the needs of the drive system as well as other accessories to accomplish this. The drive system is not designed to operate on battery alone: it is a relatively small capacity battery relative to a full electric car's design and can power the drive system for only a short period (up to a mile or so) before being fully depleted. The ICE and power generation control is essential to operation for anything other than limited uses. As the drive battery ages and capacity/current delivery is diminished, the control system takes this into account and uses more power generation using the ICE to compensate for the battery degradation. A battery with 10,000 charge/recharge cycles on it, even though it has (theoretically) perhaps only 80% of its original capacity and current delivery capability, should be capable of powering the car with very little to no noticeable difference in operation. The differences would show up ultimately, as the battery capacity continues to diminish, as increased fuel consumption as the ICE would be delivering more power generation required for operation of the electric drive motors. Given the sophistication of the control system at masking normal degradation of the battery over many cycles like this, I suspect that it would be difficult to see any difference between how John's car operates with its very high mileage/many cycles battery vs a much lower mileage example. You'd likely have to do diagnostics on the battery itself to see much difference, or higher resolution monitoring of the fuel economy. John provides the available data from his car on other pages on his site, as do some other users, so perhaps collating and comparing them would bear this out. I imagine that the limit of use is when the battery's capacity and current delivery drops below the threshold that will run the system without undue strain on the other components or produces severely reduced initial acceleration (since the battery and electric drive motors are the primary power source for starting from rest, the engine is geared too high to supply adequate torque at starting speeds). fun stuff. I'm enjoying learning about this car immensely. Just a few more days and I'll be driving mine ... then I can tell you from a practical standpoint of use what I think about it. ;-) Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 8, 2006, at 3:54 AM, mike wilson wrote: Indeed. When you think of all the energy that has gone into mining, refining, moving, machining, casting, painting, etc. (I know there are economies of scale) the materials in that vehicle (not to mention the factory that built it) and then compare that carbon footprint to the actual savings it makes over its life, I would be interested to know what fuel saving it makes. I'm not sure it can even be evaluated. And if you sold your old car, that's still on the road polluting just as much as if you'd kept it. All you'd have done is increase the total amount of cars on the road by one, until someone down the chain sends their junker to the scrap yard. - Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, David Mann wrote: And if you sold your old car, that's still on the road polluting just as much as if you'd kept it. All you'd have done is increase the total amount of cars on the road by one, until someone down the chain sends their junker to the scrap yard. Tha fact that someone bought a car means that the increase is inevitable. Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Looks like the EverReady bunny! He's putting on an average of over 5000 miles/month. I wonder how that affects battery life? Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system P. J. Alling wrote: That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I almost did that, luckily I thought a moment before posting. MTBF, and MTTF are not the same thing. MTBF is Mean Time Before Failure which is the average time before needing repair. MTTF is Mean Time until Total Failure which is the average time until it is no longer repairable. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Which the hybrid are you talking about? There are several of them on the market. Since you're equating estimated life with MTBF, where do you get the MTBF data? What are the criteria for that MTBF figure? Unless you can point to an accredited source of information publishing this figure and the criteria by which it is defined, it is worthless noise. G On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:17 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: You aught to know what mean time to failure is. I have a Saturn that's approaching 300,000 miles they have a MTTF of about 250,000 I'm on borrowed time. Just so there's no misunderstanding by time take the measure used for that particular device. Shutter cycles, miles, actual time doesn't matter, most can be expected to fail by that point in their lifespan. Some will fail a lot sooner and some will fail a lot later, but since it's all based on statistics there will always be outliers. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I thought more than a moment before posting. Whether estimated life is MTBF or MTTF: we don't know which PJ is referring to with his imprecise language, nor do we know what hybrid he is referring to either. But it's irrelevant, really. Unless someone has an accredited source of information where what estimated life means is specified clearly and stated to be 100,000 miles, the statement is without truth value. It is intended only to mislead and disparage something that is not understood, for whatever reason. PJ has already indicated that he hasn't a clue about this technology, previously in this same thread, so I suspect it's pure bullshit on his part. Godfrey On Aug 8, 2006, at 1:56 PM, graywolf wrote: I almost did that, luckily I thought a moment before posting. MTBF, and MTTF are not the same thing. MTBF is Mean Time Before Failure which is the average time before needing repair. MTTF is Mean Time until Total Failure which is the average time until it is no longer repairable. Which the hybrid are you talking about? There are several of them on the market. Since you're equating estimated life with MTBF, where do you get the MTBF data? What are the criteria for that MTBF figure? Unless you can point to an accredited source of information publishing this figure and the criteria by which it is defined, it is worthless noise. G On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:17 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: You aught to know what mean time to failure is. I have a Saturn that's approaching 300,000 miles they have a MTTF of about 250,000 I'm on borrowed time. Just so there's no misunderstanding by time take the measure used for that particular device. Shutter cycles, miles, actual time doesn't matter, most can be expected to fail by that point in their lifespan. Some will fail a lot sooner and some will fail a lot later, but since it's all based on statistics there will always be outliers. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Well, since he's done 230,000+ miles and hasn't replaced the drive batteries yet, I would suspect whatever effect it has is of only minor significance. People in the US drive an average of 12-15K miles per year. The battery is warranteed for at least 100,000 miles, which at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] rate means about 7 years (6.66 years, yeah). This implies that degradation due to age and maintenance of the electrical contacts, rather than charging and use, will likely be a more important factor in total battery life for the average user. Godfrey On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Looks like the EverReady bunny! He's putting on an average of over 5000 miles/month. I wonder how that affects battery life? http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I would suspect whatever effect it has is of only minor significance My point is it may have major signicance. I don't know but it is a point to ponder. Would be interesting to have another data point, with same time in use but something closer to a normal amount of mileage. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Well, since he's done 230,000+ miles and hasn't replaced the drive batteries yet, I would suspect whatever effect it has is of only minor significance. People in the US drive an average of 12-15K miles per year. The battery is warranteed for at least 100,000 miles, which at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] rate means about 7 years (6.66 years, yeah). This implies that degradation due to age and maintenance of the electrical contacts, rather than charging and use, will likely be a more important factor in total battery life for the average user. Godfrey On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Looks like the EverReady bunny! He's putting on an average of over 5000 miles/month. I wonder how that affects battery life? http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 8, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: I would suspect whatever effect it has is of only minor significance My point is it may have major signicance. I don't know but it is a point to ponder. Would be interesting to have another data point, with same time in use but something closer to a normal amount of mileage. John's high high mileage numbers are on a HSD Prius purchased on 10/23/2003. If you go to his top level page, http://john1701a.com/, you can see links to other Prius owners' information. What would you expect to see in a car of similar age with lower mileage? Said another way, if a 2003-2004 car is continuing to operate as normal with 230,000+ mileage, what would you be looking to see as difference for the same year car with ~30-40K miles on the odometer? and how would you attribute the effect of John's high mileage on the battery by that difference? I'm not sure why this is such a thing to ponder. It seems to me that high-mileage cars have always been looked at to see what wears out or causes problems rather than normal to low mileage cars. In general, if a high-mileage car properly maintained is working normally and proving durable, one tends to extrapolate that same- model normal/low mileage cars properly maintained will be reliable and durable. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/08/06 Sun PM 11:39:56 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Money is a small part of the consideration. The key, Ken, is that the Prius is a good car. It has a nice, quiet interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal driving needs. On top of that, its highway fuel economy (as reported by several hundred owners over the past five years in the Prius chat rooms and forums) runs in the range of 38-50mpg averages, its city fuel economy runs in the 40-60 mpg averages. The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Godfrey The problem with that is that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of contructing it in the first place. 8-/ On Aug 6, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, mike wilson wrote: From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/08/06 Sun PM 11:39:56 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. The problem with that is that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of contructing it in the first place. 8-/ Are you referring to the outlay to buy one such car? Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal Thanks for this, maybe things have changed, as mid-range Toyotas were not famed for these aspects up until 5 yrs ago that I last bought a car. car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Has anyone (including Toyota's marketing dept) studied the environmental effect of the construction and disposal of the batteries in these vehicles? What is their life expectancy (the batteries' not Toyota's marketing dept. :-)) and what are options for recycling or reuse? Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Hi Godfrey, On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:39:56 -0700, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: The key, Ken, is that the Prius is a good car. It has a nice, quiet interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal driving needs. On top of that, its highway fuel economy (as reported by several hundred owners over the past five years in the Prius chat rooms and forums) runs in the range of 38-50mpg averages, its city fuel economy runs in the 40-60 mpg averages. I have been doing close to 53 mpg (4.4 ltr/100km) over the last year and a half, in a mix of city and highway. FYI, I have put some images up of of the Toyota Prius mock-up they have in the Valencia Museum of Science. See my gallery: http://www.dfsee.com/gallery/prius.php You can clearly see the engines, battery and control-unit ... Regards, JvW -- Jan van Wijk; http://www.dfsee.com/gallery -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal Thanks for this, maybe things have changed, as mid-range Toyotas were not famed for these aspects up until 5 yrs ago that I last bought a car. car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Has anyone (including Toyota's marketing dept) studied the environmental effect of the construction and disposal of the batteries in these vehicles? What is their life expectancy (the batteries' not Toyota's marketing dept. :-)) and what are options for recycling or reuse? Yes, people have studied this. The environmental price of making the car is greater than that of a normal car, but it doesn't take that long for the fuel efficiency and low emissions to make up for it. They don't know yet what a typical battery life is yet, as the technology has only been on the market since 1997 (in Japan - it's been in the US since 2001) but I believe the battery is warranted for 8 or 10 years and is recyclable :) -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kenneth Waller wrote: We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. The extra cost I'm thinking about is the premium cost for the hybrid drivetrain over a similar sized vehicle. An interesting question, but that's really not how we, or, I suspect, most people, buy cars; we decide on out budget first and then compare vehicles that fit it. We've compared cars that cost approximately what the Pruis costs and made out choice. In the hybrid Escape, for example, the cost over a similar non hybrid Escape is in the range of several thousand $. Well worth the money if you're mostly in city traffic, more of a questionable worth for mostly highway driving. Its highway mileage is more than 50% better than my current car :) Emissions are even more of an improvement. -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
highway mileage with good all-round performance. The Hybrid will do better in the city though, partially due to regenerative braking. The Prius gets notably better city mileage than it does on the highway. -Adam If you drove on the highway at city speeds, you'd get even better mileage. Regen braking throws a lot of energy away at anything but low braking power levels... especially on an electric vehicle with a battery pack as minimal as the prius. The research hybrid electric car I worked on for my M.S. had a similarly sized pack (20 miles). At the 1C rate (probably about 2-3kW for the Prius), the batteries only retained about 50% of what you tried to stuff in them. On acceleration (at the 1C rate again), you throw away another 50%. Regen is not the panacea everyone thinks it is unless you can keep the rates really low... MUCH lower than people are used to hitting the brakes. The other way to make it lower is to put a bigger pack in it so the same current is less to the battery. They spell these types of hybrids E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C. Batteries suck. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
The question I would have before buying such a complex car is about getting it repaired. It looks to me like a lot of things could break down, and if/when something does break, how likely is it that there will be a repairperson who knows enough to fix it. Around here the car mechanics are only marginally literate and really have problems with anything made since about 1990. I had a really bad experience with the last Toyota that I bought, with an endemic problem that could never be repaired in three years of ownership. I got tired of taking the car back over and over and being without it for days, so I just traded the damned thing in and let somebody else hassle with it. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Bob Shell wrote: The question I would have before buying such a complex car is about getting it repaired. It looks to me like a lot of things could break down, and if/when something does break, how likely is it that there will be a repairperson who knows enough to fix it. Around here the car mechanics are only marginally literate and really have problems with anything made since about 1990. That was a concern for me as well. It turns out that the Prius has an outstanding reliability record. I expect that they knew this would be a concern and went an extra mile (or two) in designing for reliability on such a groundbreaking vehicle. -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 5:45 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: The question I would have before buying such a complex car is about getting it repaired. It looks to me like a lot of things could break down, and if/when something does break, how likely is it that there will be a repairperson who knows enough to fix it. Around here the car mechanics are only marginally literate and really have problems with anything made since about 1990. That was a concern for me as well. It turns out that the Prius has an outstanding reliability record. I expect that they knew this would be a concern and went an extra mile (or two) in designing for reliability on such a groundbreaking vehicle. I've heard nothing but excellent reports about Prius reliability too. The drive system is complex software-wise but is mechanically fairly simple. My previous two Toyotas were excellent on maintenance ... I had the MR2 for 17-18 years and it rarely needed anything other than standard maintenance: one of the least expensive, lowest maintenance cars to run of any that I've owned since 1970. There are always exceptions to these sorts of things and some dealers are better than others, of course. I hope for more of the same quality that I've enjoyed with Toyota in the past. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Ah-ha, someone who looks beyond the obvious. That is the problem all electric vehicles have. I was looking into electric bicycles a bit back, and even they have that problem, although a couple of hundred bucks for the bicycle battery is better than the few thousand which I will bet the replacements for those crossbred cars cost. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal Thanks for this, maybe things have changed, as mid-range Toyotas were not famed for these aspects up until 5 yrs ago that I last bought a car. car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Has anyone (including Toyota's marketing dept) studied the environmental effect of the construction and disposal of the batteries in these vehicles? What is their life expectancy (the batteries' not Toyota's marketing dept. :-)) and what are options for recycling or reuse? Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Electric motors and generators are about 30% effective. 30% of 30% is about 10%, so regenerative breaking gets back is about 10% max! That is better than a kick in the pants*, but not much. RB is mostly a feature that cost little to implement and sounds good in the advertising. *RB seems to be mostly useful for controlling speed on long downhills. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Cory Papenfuss wrote: highway mileage with good all-round performance. The Hybrid will do better in the city though, partially due to regenerative braking. The Prius gets notably better city mileage than it does on the highway. -Adam If you drove on the highway at city speeds, you'd get even better mileage. Regen braking throws a lot of energy away at anything but low braking power levels... especially on an electric vehicle with a battery pack as minimal as the prius. The research hybrid electric car I worked on for my M.S. had a similarly sized pack (20 miles). At the 1C rate (probably about 2-3kW for the Prius), the batteries only retained about 50% of what you tried to stuff in them. On acceleration (at the 1C rate again), you throw away another 50%. Regen is not the panacea everyone thinks it is unless you can keep the rates really low... MUCH lower than people are used to hitting the brakes. The other way to make it lower is to put a bigger pack in it so the same current is less to the battery. They spell these types of hybrids E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C. Batteries suck. -Cory -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: graywolf Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Ah-ha, someone who looks beyond the obvious. That is the problem all electric vehicles have. I was looking into electric bicycles a bit back, and even they have that problem, although a couple of hundred bucks for the bicycle battery is better than the few thousand which I will bet the replacements for those crossbred cars cost. One also needs to look at the environmental costs of charging the batteries in electric vehicles. If the charging is a byprduct of using the brakes, that's all fine, but in my neck of the woods, electricity is made by burning fossil fuel, so while an electric vehicle may seem to be zero emissions, all that is happening is that the emmissions are being moved offsite. I was looking at purchasing a small car to drive when I didn't need to be hauling construction materials and the like, and came to the conclusion that it would be a bad business decision. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
You forgot to add that they also know nothing about cars that were made before they went to school 5-10 years ago. The way it works now is they plug the car into the computer. If the computer does not recognize the problem, they say the car is unrepairable. Repair is a misnomer anyway; remove and replace parts is all most shops can do. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Bob Shell wrote: The question I would have before buying such a complex car is about getting it repaired. It looks to me like a lot of things could break down, and if/when something does break, how likely is it that there will be a repairperson who knows enough to fix it. Around here the car mechanics are only marginally literate and really have problems with anything made since about 1990. I had a really bad experience with the last Toyota that I bought, with an endemic problem that could never be repaired in three years of ownership. I got tired of taking the car back over and over and being without it for days, so I just traded the damned thing in and let somebody else hassle with it. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
graywolf wrote: Electric motors and generators are about 30% effective. 30% of 30% is about 10%, so regenerative breaking gets back is about 10% max! That is better than a kick in the pants*, but not much. RB is mostly a feature that cost little to implement and sounds good in the advertising. Not true. A multi-phase AC motor can be upwards of 90% efficient (which I believe you mean to say instead of effective) . And usually at least 80% these days. 30% would be more typical for a pre-1970s DC motor. On the other hand, a gas motor loses around 60% of energy to heat (not considering braking). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
graywolf wrote: Electric motors and generators are about 30% effective. 30% of 30% is about 10%, so regenerative breaking gets back is about 10% max! That is better than a kick in the pants*, but not much. RB is mostly a feature that cost little to implement and sounds good in the advertising. Not true. A multi-phase AC motor can be upwards of 90% efficient (which I believe you mean to say instead of effective) . And usually at least 80% these days. 30% would be more typical for a pre-1970s DC motor. For a high-performance electrical machine as is used in a hybrid like that, 90-95% efficiency (peak at least) is certainly typical. It's the *batteries* being abused at the high charge/discharge rates that waste most of the energy. Batteries are quite efficient at low rates (5-20 hour discharge rate)... at the 0.1-1 rate (i.e. 1C-10C) they're very bad. On the other hand, a gas motor loses around 60% of energy to heat (not considering braking). Probably more like 65-70% for gasoline. Typical efficiencies for gasoline engines are 25-30%, so a *really* good one would be 35%. Oh, and that's peak (RPM of max torque, WOT). High-quality modern diesels are 5-10% better thermodynamically (35-40%). -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, mike wilson wrote: From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/08/06 Sun PM 11:39:56 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. The problem with that is that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of contructing it in the first place. 8-/ Are you referring to the outlay to buy one such car? Kostas Indeed. When you think of all the energy that has gone into mining, refining, moving, machining, casting, painting, etc. (I know there are economies of scale) the materials in that vehicle (not to mention the factory that built it) and then compare that carbon footprint to the actual savings it makes over its life, I would be interested to know what fuel saving it makes. I'm not sure it can even be evaluated. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: My previous two Toyotas were excellent on maintenance ... I had the MR2 for 17-18 years and it rarely needed anything other than standard maintenance: one of the least expensive, lowest maintenance cars to run of any that I've owned since 1970. There are always exceptions to these sorts of things and some dealers are better than others, of course. I hope for more of the same quality that I've enjoyed with Toyota in the past. I had owned Toyotas since the 60s, Land Cruisers and Celicas. Then in the 80s I bought a Tercel as a commuter car for my wife. It wore out the factory front tires in under 3,000 miles, uneven wear on the inner sides. I had taken it back several times during that period, and told each time nothing was wrong with the car. The dealer replaced the tires for free, bitching the whole time that they were not a tire dealer and the warranty really didn't apply to tires. The second set of front tires wore out as fast as the first, but the dealer still kept maintaining there was nothing wrong with the car. I knew otherwise, and began writing directly to Toyota USA. Basically they stonewalled, just like the dealer, and nobody was ever willing to admit there was anything wrong with the car. After replacing the first set of tires the dealer said I was on my own with regard to tires. I bought a good set of Michelins and had the Michelin dealer check out the car's front end. It was way out of alignment. They aligned it and installed the tires. That helped, but still we only got 10,000 miles on those tires. The tire dealer said they could align it, but it apparently simply would not hold alignment more than a few thousand miles. That's when I traded it in on a Ford Escort, which held up remarkably well and didn't eat tires. What turned me off to Toyota was their basic shrug of the shoulders attitude and their unwillingness to admit something was wrong. The dealer kept accusing me of running with the tires under- inflated, but that was not the case. I went from being a loyal Toyota owner and booster to someone who wouldn't touch anything with their name on it. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 8:54 AM, mike wilson wrote: The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. The problem with that is that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place. 8-/ Are you referring to the outlay to buy one such car? Indeed. When you think of all the energy that has gone into mining, refining, moving, machining, casting, painting, etc. (I know there are economies of scale) the materials in that vehicle (not to mention the factory that built it) and then compare that carbon footprint to the actual savings it makes over its life, I would be interested to know what fuel saving it makes. I'm not sure it can even be evaluated. I don't understand how the hybrid-electric Prius is substantially different in terms of environmental cost of manufacture compared to a petrol or diesel powered automobile. The fact that it will generally return 50-80% better fuel economy can only be a plus. In terms of its mechanical components it's the same or simpler than most of the petrol-diesel machines, the parts that are more complicated are the computers and the NiMH batteries, and I've not seen much that substantiates saying that manufacturing the Prius' computers is any more or less of an environmental impact than making the computers already included in other cars. Or the one on your desk, for that matter. The NiMH battery I don't know, but we seem to be manufacturing them by the bazillion anyway, the volumes required for the automobile industry are trivial compared to the total at present. With fuel consumption gains due to efficient operation of the combustion engine, the hybrid-electric is putting less pollutants into the atmosphere in operation, which is a plus. The NiMH traction batteries are designed to run at least 100,000 miles (some reports of people with 200,000+ miles still on the original batteries, still going strong, are available on the web if you look) and are also designed to be recyclable, so that counts as another plus. Nothing involving power is without some environmental impact, of course. But it can hardly be said that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place is a valid statement if you're trying to contrast it to petrol and diesel powered automobiles. They are probably pretty much the same overall impact, and whatever fuel you do save, even if the percentage were small, improves the net benefits of the hybrid-electric power train. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 9:10 AM, Bob Shell wrote: ... I went from being a loyal Toyota owner and booster to someone who wouldn't touch anything with their name on it. Sad story, Bob. You had an dealer who didn't support you, and you didn't get anyone to take up your cause at the corporate level. I wonder how different it is from those who've been 'shafted' by Pentax, or Nikon, or Canon, or Sony in similar fashion, though. I know several people who will not consider a Sony camera because they've been treated poorly by sales outlet and corporate, same for Pentax, Nikon, Canon, etc. It's certainly how I feel about Sigma lenses ... It doesn't mitigate the fact that you were treated poorly, and you're justified in your feelings. I'm happy I haven't had such difficulties with any of the brands whose products I tend to like. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: course. But it can hardly be said that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place is a valid statement if you're trying to contrast it to petrol and diesel powered automobiles. The way I conceived this initially was that these cars fetch a premium compared to petrol and even diesel cars, which you have to cough up at purchase and recoup with use. But now I am confused by Mike's answer, for the reasons you outlined, Godfrey. Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: course. But it can hardly be said that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place is a valid statement if you're trying to contrast it to petrol and diesel powered automobiles. The way I conceived this initially was that these cars fetch a premium compared to petrol and even diesel cars, which you have to cough up at purchase and recoup with use. But now I am confused by Mike's answer, for the reasons you outlined, Godfrey. Kostas Dry-cell battery manufacturing is quite nasty from an environmental perspective. But I can't see it being worse than the reduction in emissions from a hybrid. Now an electric which charges off the grid could possibly be worse if located in a place that uses a lot of coal-fired generators (which are utterly nasty from an environmental perspective and should have been banned years ago). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Aug 7, 2006, at 8:54 AM, mike wilson wrote: The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. The problem with that is that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place. 8-/ Are you referring to the outlay to buy one such car? Indeed. When you think of all the energy that has gone into mining, refining, moving, machining, casting, painting, etc. (I know there are economies of scale) the materials in that vehicle (not to mention the factory that built it) and then compare that carbon footprint to the actual savings it makes over its life, I would be interested to know what fuel saving it makes. I'm not sure it can even be evaluated. I don't understand how the hybrid-electric Prius is substantially different in terms of environmental cost of manufacture compared to a petrol or diesel powered automobile. The fact that it will generally return 50-80% better fuel economy can only be a plus. In terms of its mechanical components it's the same or simpler than most of the petrol-diesel machines, the parts that are more complicated are the computers and the NiMH batteries, and I've not seen much that substantiates saying that manufacturing the Prius' computers is any more or less of an environmental impact than making the computers already included in other cars. Or the one on your desk, for that matter. The NiMH battery I don't know, but we seem to be manufacturing them by the bazillion anyway, the volumes required for the automobile industry are trivial compared to the total at present. With fuel consumption gains due to efficient operation of the combustion engine, the hybrid-electric is putting less pollutants into the atmosphere in operation, which is a plus. The NiMH traction batteries are designed to run at least 100,000 miles (some reports of people with 200,000+ miles still on the original batteries, still going strong, are available on the web if you look) and are also designed to be recyclable, so that counts as another plus. Nothing involving power is without some environmental impact, of course. But it can hardly be said that you have to save a huge amount of fuel before you recoup the environmental cost of constructing it in the first place is a valid statement if you're trying to contrast it to petrol and diesel powered automobiles. They are probably pretty much the same overall impact, and whatever fuel you do save, even if the percentage were small, improves the net benefits of the hybrid-electric power train. I didn't mean my origianl staement as a direct criticism of your choice of vehicle but as a general one about the motor industry. I have a sneaking and unevaluated feeling that the environmental cost of producing new cars is higher than the cost of keeping old ones running. Not that anyone (especially the motor industry) is going to be bothered about that. m -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:08 PM, mike wilson wrote: I didn't mean my origianl staement as a direct criticism of your choice of vehicle but as a general one about the motor industry. I have a sneaking and unevaluated feeling that the environmental cost of producing new cars is higher than the cost of keeping old ones running. Not that anyone (especially the motor industry) is going to be bothered about that. That didn't come across clearly in the original statement. Certainly there is environmental cost to producing new cars. Overall, it's necessary even if existing ones can be maintained to as-new standards (difficult at best) due to the fact that parts wear out, cars get destroyed through accidents, etc. Modern cars are much more efficient in operation and do a better job, and are more easily recycled, but there is a huge environmental cost to any large-scale manufacturing operation. That is the modern world, however. To change from that basis into a low-tech, non-manufacturing culture is likely something that will not happen anytime soon unless there was catastrophic pressure to deal with. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On 8/7/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't understand how the hybrid-electric Prius is substantially different in terms of environmental cost of manufacture compared to a petrol or diesel powered automobile. I'm not sure if I believe it, but this is an interesting argument: http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml It's certainly not the typical hybrid car point of view. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is the modern world, however. To change from that basis into a low-tech, non-manufacturing culture is likely something that will not happen anytime soon unless there was catastrophic pressure to deal with. No need for low-tech to get anywhere. Leaving deliberately built-in wear and obsolescence out of modern car designs would be a great step in the right direction. My Volvo 480 wasn't scrapped because of corrosion or mechanical wear but because the electronics went bananas. Stood right in front of the house like an orchestrion with everything electric (wipers, lights, horn, washers, you name it) going on and off at 1 second intervals. The broken ECU turned out to be so ridiculously expensive that I scrapped a car which would mechanically have been good for many more miles. My life-long car electrician, the guy who'd actually *repair* components like alternators or replace broken relays, has closed his shop. Nowadays, if something like a wiper interval control fails you don't simply replace a relay but the complete ECU for hundreds of bucks. This is where modern car design stinks. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
While I didn't buy my Boxster S for its mileage, I was pleasantly surprised at the mileage I got last month on a 560 mile round trip to Traverse City - @28.6 MPG averaging 65-75MPH with the top up. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 07:06:05PM -0600, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Well, it certainly gets better highway mileage (~50 hwy) than what I'm driving now (~33). And I'm really concerned with reducing my consumption of petroleum as much as the cost of it. We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. By Tuesday my current 50 mpg vehicle should be on the road, too :) We've made two round trips to Calgary in my wife's Nissan X-Trail. it seems to get something close to 40mp(imperial)g travelling at 110kph. Quite amazing actually. My truck more than makes up for it. William Robb While my current vehicle seems to be averaging around 23 mpg, that's still better than a 50% improvement over the car it replaced. And my wife gets better than that in her Mini, which does 3 or 4 times the number of miles per week. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. At $3.00/gal 30 mpg that looks like 50,000mile of driving. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: The extra cost I'm thinking about is the premium cost for the hybrid drivetrain over a similar sized vehicle. In the hybrid Escape, for example, the cost over a similar non hybrid Escape is in the range of several thousand $. Well worth the money if you're mostly in city traffic, more of a questionable worth for mostly highway driving. In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: Kenneth Waller Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. At $3.00/gal 30 mpg that looks like 50,000mile of driving. Check your math, Ken. Or is Diesel really 3 bucks a gallon cheaper than gasoline? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Check the statement William, I was using the stated cost of the hybrid drivetrain in relation to a pure gas drivetrain only to point out the amount of driving you'd be giving away due to the extra cost of the hybrid drivetrain. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system - Original Message - From: Kenneth Waller Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. At $3.00/gal 30 mpg that looks like 50,000mile of driving. Check your math, Ken. Or is Diesel really 3 bucks a gallon cheaper than gasoline? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles compare that to the expected life of a moderately priced gasoline drive train, which is in most Japanese cars is 300,000 miles and most American cars 250,000 miles. Kenneth Waller wrote: In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. At $3.00/gal 30 mpg that looks like 50,000mile of driving. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: The extra cost I'm thinking about is the premium cost for the hybrid drivetrain over a similar sized vehicle. In the hybrid Escape, for example, the cost over a similar non hybrid Escape is in the range of several thousand $. Well worth the money if you're mostly in city traffic, more of a questionable worth for mostly highway driving. In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
P. J. Alling wrote: That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
You aught to know what mean time to failure is. I have a Saturn that's approaching 300,000 miles they have a MTTF of about 250,000 I'm on borrowed time. Just so there's no misunderstanding by time take the measure used for that particular device. Shutter cycles, miles, actual time doesn't matter, most can be expected to fail by that point in their lifespan. Some will fail a lot sooner and some will fail a lot later, but since it's all based on statistics there will always be outliers. Mark Roberts wrote: P. J. Alling wrote: That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Which the hybrid are you talking about? There are several of them on the market. Since you're equating estimated life with MTBF, where do you get the MTBF data? What are the criteria for that MTBF figure? Unless you can point to an accredited source of information publishing this figure and the criteria by which it is defined, it is worthless noise. G On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:17 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: You aught to know what mean time to failure is. I have a Saturn that's approaching 300,000 miles they have a MTTF of about 250,000 I'm on borrowed time. Just so there's no misunderstanding by time take the measure used for that particular device. Shutter cycles, miles, actual time doesn't matter, most can be expected to fail by that point in their lifespan. Some will fail a lot sooner and some will fail a lot later, but since it's all based on statistics there will always be outliers. http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm That's 1/2 the estimated life of the hybrid. They're rated to last about 100,000 miles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Aug 7, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Scott Loveless wrote: I'm not sure if I believe it, but this is an interesting argument: http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml It's certainly not the typical hybrid car point of view. It's laughably ridiculous. A Hummer is more economical than a VW Golf on energy usage over the life of the vehicle? Total bs. The thesis is based on an absurd dust to dust metric that makes no sense if you take it apart piece by piece and analyze what it's saying. It's a biased metric intended to prove something stupid is true by an inductive logical trick. The motor industry is desperate to sell more Hummers and SUVs because they've got lots full of the bloody things. People buy them because of stupid tax incentives, back-ass-wards pundits like this, and price incentives. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota dealers have orders stretching three/four months into the future for their hybrids. The industry wants to maintain their very profitable status quo. Hybrids cost more to build right now, due to constrained volumes and new technology, and produce less profit as a result. You should buy more high-profit cars! is how I read this nonsense from the so- called Reason Institute. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Bob Shell wrote: I haven't yet found a detailed drawing or photographs of all the components in the Prius' drive system to be able to fully understand how it works. If you know of any available on line, let me know. This Australian article may have some answers: http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1450/article.html And here's a somewhat windy Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive Unfortunately neither has the detailed drawings you and I would like to see of how it works. Heya Bob, and others who are interested... The best description I've found of the Synergy Drive and the operation of the power split device as CVT is available from these pages: http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/ You can see from the text and diagrams lots of info that details how the engine and electric motors, combined with the planetary gearset in the power split device, work to provide a very different take on the concept of continuously variable transmission. Curiously, the Honda Insight forum pages also have excellent technical information about the Prius and how differs from the Insight drive system design: http://www.insightcentral.net/ I found these through the Wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius Truly a fascinating design. Can't wait for my car to get here! Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Heya Bob, and others who are interested... The best description I've found of the Synergy Drive and the operation of the power split device as CVT is available from these pages: http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/ You can see from the text and diagrams lots of info that details how the engine and electric motors, combined with the planetary gearset in the power split device, work to provide a very different take on the concept of continuously variable transmission. Curiously, the Honda Insight forum pages also have excellent technical information about the Prius and how differs from the Insight drive system design: http://www.insightcentral.net/ I found these through the Wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius Truly a fascinating design. Can't wait for my car to get here! Same here... except that my local dealer has one in stock! Test drove it on Friday. Dr. Lisa is going to check it out Monday or Tuesday (in Pennsylvania car dealers are prohibited by law from doing business on Sunday! It's like living in Saudi friggin' Arabia!) and they we'll decide if we're going to get it. We've been considering it for a while but the 65 mile commute to my new job was the tipping point... -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Bob Shell wrote: I haven't yet found a detailed drawing or photographs of all the components in the Prius' drive system to be able to fully understand how it works. If you know of any available on line, let me know. This Australian article may have some answers: http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1450/article.html And here's a somewhat windy Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive Unfortunately neither has the detailed drawings you and I would like to see of how it works. Heya Bob, and others who are interested... The best description I've found of the Synergy Drive and the operation of the power split device as CVT is available from these pages: http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/ You can see from the text and diagrams lots of info that details how the engine and electric motors, combined with the planetary gearset in the power split device, work to provide a very different take on the concept of continuously variable transmission. Curiously, the Honda Insight forum pages also have excellent technical information about the Prius and how differs from the Insight drive system design: http://www.insightcentral.net/ I found these through the Wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius Truly a fascinating design. Can't wait for my car to get here! Godfrey Thanks for the link, It's rather interesting reading. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Glad you're enjoying the info. I'm continuing to explore links ... finally, I found a photograph/ cutaway of the Prius power unit: http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~u7224ac/www/hybrid.jpg Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Heya Bob, and others who are interested... The best description I've found of the Synergy Drive and the operation of the power split device as CVT is available from these pages: http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/ You can see from the text and diagrams lots of info that details how the engine and electric motors, combined with the planetary gearset in the power split device, work to provide a very different take on the concept of continuously variable transmission. Curiously, the Honda Insight forum pages also have excellent technical information about the Prius and how differs from the Insight drive system design: http://www.insightcentral.net/ I found these through the Wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius Truly a fascinating design. Can't wait for my car to get here! Same here... except that my local dealer has one in stock! Test drove it on Friday. Dr. Lisa is going to check it out Monday or Tuesday (in Pennsylvania car dealers are prohibited by law from doing business on Sunday! It's like living in Saudi friggin' Arabia!) and they we'll decide if we're going to get it. We've been considering it for a while but the 65 mile commute to my new job was the tipping point... -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Well, it certainly gets better highway mileage (~50 hwy) than what I'm driving now (~33). And I'm really concerned with reducing my consumption of petroleum as much as the cost of it. We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. By Tuesday my current 50 mpg vehicle should be on the road, too :) -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Money is a small part of the consideration. The key, Ken, is that the Prius is a good car. It has a nice, quiet interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal driving needs. On top of that, its highway fuel economy (as reported by several hundred owners over the past five years in the Prius chat rooms and forums) runs in the range of 38-50mpg averages, its city fuel economy runs in the 40-60 mpg averages. The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Godfrey On Aug 6, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Agreed, If it's mostly highway, get a Rabbit or Jetta TDI, they get amazing highway mileage with good all-round performance. The Hybrid will do better in the city though, partially due to regenerative braking. The Prius gets notably better city mileage than it does on the highway. -Adam Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Heya Bob, and others who are interested... The best description I've found of the Synergy Drive and the operation of the power split device as CVT is available from these pages: http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/ You can see from the text and diagrams lots of info that details how the engine and electric motors, combined with the planetary gearset in the power split device, work to provide a very different take on the concept of continuously variable transmission. Curiously, the Honda Insight forum pages also have excellent technical information about the Prius and how differs from the Insight drive system design: http://www.insightcentral.net/ I found these through the Wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius Truly a fascinating design. Can't wait for my car to get here! Same here... except that my local dealer has one in stock! Test drove it on Friday. Dr. Lisa is going to check it out Monday or Tuesday (in Pennsylvania car dealers are prohibited by law from doing business on Sunday! It's like living in Saudi friggin' Arabia!) and they we'll decide if we're going to get it. We've been considering it for a while but the 65 mile commute to my new job was the tipping point... -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well I'm glad for you Godfrey. Enjoy. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Money is a small part of the consideration. The key, Ken, is that the Prius is a good car. It has a nice, quiet interior, excellent ride and handling, and good power for normal driving needs. On top of that, its highway fuel economy (as reported by several hundred owners over the past five years in the Prius chat rooms and forums) runs in the range of 38-50mpg averages, its city fuel economy runs in the 40-60 mpg averages. The extra cost of the hybrid power system is warranted on that kind of fuel mileage for me, coupled with the fact that it's a darn nice car which otherwise satisfies my needs well. The fact that it uses less fuel than most others with its performance/quality makes me feel good about being environmentally friendly as well. Godfrey On Aug 6, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. The extra cost I'm thinking about is the premium cost for the hybrid drivetrain over a similar sized vehicle. In the hybrid Escape, for example, the cost over a similar non hybrid Escape is in the range of several thousand $. Well worth the money if you're mostly in city traffic, more of a questionable worth for mostly highway driving. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Well, it certainly gets better highway mileage (~50 hwy) than what I'm driving now (~33). And I'm really concerned with reducing my consumption of petroleum as much as the cost of it. We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. By Tuesday my current 50 mpg vehicle should be on the road, too :) -- Mark Roberts Photography Multimedia www.robertstech.com 412-687-2835 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Well, it certainly gets better highway mileage (~50 hwy) than what I'm driving now (~33). And I'm really concerned with reducing my consumption of petroleum as much as the cost of it. We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. By Tuesday my current 50 mpg vehicle should be on the road, too :) We've made two round trips to Calgary in my wife's Nissan X-Trail. it seems to get something close to 40mp(imperial)g travelling at 110kph. Quite amazing actually. My truck more than makes up for it. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 07:06:05PM -0600, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Kenneth Waller wrote: Mark, as you're probably aware, the mileage you can expect with a hybrid is very dependent upon your driving cycle, (city/highway) among other things. If your 65 mile commute is mostly highway you will not see the kick in mileage that the hybrids are noted for. The extra cost of a hybrid would go a long way to pay for your yearly fuel bill. Well, it certainly gets better highway mileage (~50 hwy) than what I'm driving now (~33). And I'm really concerned with reducing my consumption of petroleum as much as the cost of it. We're probably going to spend about $24,000 no matter *what* kind of car we get, so there really is no extra cost for us. By Tuesday my current 50 mpg vehicle should be on the road, too :) We've made two round trips to Calgary in my wife's Nissan X-Trail. it seems to get something close to 40mp(imperial)g travelling at 110kph. Quite amazing actually. My truck more than makes up for it. William Robb While my current vehicle seems to be averaging around 23 mpg, that's still better than a 50% improvement over the car it replaced. And my wife gets better than that in her Mini, which does 3 or 4 times the number of miles per week. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Kenneth Waller wrote: The extra cost I'm thinking about is the premium cost for the hybrid drivetrain over a similar sized vehicle. In the hybrid Escape, for example, the cost over a similar non hybrid Escape is in the range of several thousand $. Well worth the money if you're mostly in city traffic, more of a questionable worth for mostly highway driving. In the Ford/Mercury line, the hybrid drive train costs about the same amount extra as a diesel drive train (not necessarily in the same model) ... about $5k over the same vehicle with a pure-gasoline drive train. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Works just fine, I was down in Tennessee for a convention over the weekend and spend a good part of friday in a 2003 Prius, the AC worked just fine when running in electric mode (Thankfully) -Adam Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 27, 2006, at 1:21 PM, Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: What happens to the air-con when stuck in traffic? I'm wondering that myself. I was over at the dealership the other evening when the first one came in for me (a long story ...) looking it over. Since it was nearly 110 degrees F, we were sitting in the car with the power on, AC on. Blowers going, the car cooled down very quickly to a comfortable temperature and the AC kept things nice on its Auto setting. The drive batteries were relatively depleted. We were there going through all the gizmos on the fancy display for about an hour. About every ten minutes, the engine would start and run for two minutes, then shut down again. I conjecture that the AC compressor is driven by the auxiliary drive/ generating motor. Since it consumes a lot less energy to drive just the compressor, even a low charge in the drive batteries is enough to keep the AC up nicely. Once the drive batteries fall below a certain charge threshold, the gas engine turns on to charge it up. (That same drive/generating motor also operates as the engine starter ... and there is no gas engine powered reverse gear, reverse is all done electrically.) It is a fascinating car, something that I'll have a grand time studying. Mine (the second one) should be delivered August 5-10. Can't wait! Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTuQDJDqdM Seems familiar. Dave On 7/29/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had no doubt that PJ would continue to make snide comments. G On Jul 28, 2006, at 5:13 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: I doubt he'd appreciate the irony. Paul Stenquist wrote: Tsk, tsk. Another family squabble. We love you both. Behave. Paul PS: I think it's okay with Godders if you call him God. If not, you can call me God:-). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
YouTube *is* an addiction. :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8eEDePOTAsearch=Atheist G On Jul 28, 2006, at 11:31 PM, David Savage wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTuQDJDqdM -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On 28/7/06, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed: I will no longer be paying any attention. Mark! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
LOL. As I've just discovered. Hello my name is David and I'm a YouTubeaholic. On 7/29/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YouTube *is* an addiction. :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8eEDePOTAsearch=Atheist G On Jul 28, 2006, at 11:31 PM, David Savage wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTuQDJDqdM -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Can't you take a freaking complement without being an asshole about it! I agreed that you were correct in your description the Toyota design, that he was wrong. It seems that you just can't help being a know it all, even when someone more or less agrees with your assessment. My opinion that parallel hybrids are ridiculously complicated is more or less beside the point. So I say this to you with all due respect, go screw yourself! Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ridiculously complicated seems a rather odd judgement for someone who only thinks you are correct in your description. I've been enjoying the process of learning more about this power train. It's truly fascinating. I'm going to have a lot of fun poking around in it. :-) The design that urbanlegend1031 suggested is a form of series hybrid-electric design. In that form the design devolves to an electrically powered car with a portable generator to charge the batteries. All motive power is ultimately from the electric motor driving the wheels, whether with a transmission or not. The Honda hybrids are a different series design, where an electric motor assists a gas engine for efficiency but cannot operate the car independent of that gas engine: the gas engine must be engaged with the transmission to operate the power transfer to the drive system. The Toyota hybrid approach is a parallel hybrid, where a gas engine and electric motor(s) are able to operate separately or in concert to produce motive power. A disengageable power coupling between the electric motor(s) and the gas engine distributes the drive energy to a transmission unit, nominally some form of continuously variable gearing in the Toyota literature although I haven't yet divined just exactly what the transmission design is that they're ascribing continuously variable to (there are several that come to mind, I just don't know what kind they're using). Yes, it's quite a complex design, but from all accounts they seem to have done a superb job of it and it works very well. I'm fairly sure at this point that this can be the most efficient as well as the most versatile type of hybrid-electric design as it can use the best qualities of either gas engine or electric motor depending upon the circumstances and demands being placed on it. How would you have designed it? Godfrey On Jul 27, 2006, at 9:59 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: Godfrey, I think you are correct in your description, and it seems ridiculously complicated that it is done that way. However no one from Toyota asked me. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: the first one came in for me (a long story ...) Yes? Kostas (thanks for the answer on a/c) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Jul 28, 2006, at 1:40 AM, Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: the first one came in for me (a long story ...) Yes? To make a long story very short, the salesman I was working with is incompetent. That ultimately killed the deal on the first car that came in for me (which arrived at the dealer 8 weeks ahead of when I expected... !!). I released my interest in it to another buyer. I'm now working with the sales manager, who has promised to make amends for the screw up. Another car has been allocated and will be here within the next two weeks, and I'll be working with a different salesperson. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Jul 28, 2006, at 12:03 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Can't you take a freaking complement ... If you were to gift someone with a compliment without adding a sneer, my attitude towards you might prove to be less hostile. However, in this case I was actually curious about your thoughts on how you would design a hybrid-electric power system since you seemed to have some thoughts about the complexity of the Synergy drive system. I didn't realize that you just wanted to make a backhanded sneer at something you know nothing about. Pardon my curiosity. Likewise on the further action to be taken, too. :-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
You know Godfrey, or shall I call you God. You've had a sneer, on your virtual face, dealing with just about everyone and everything since you first appeared on this list. The number of people you have annoyed at one time or another is to my mind astounding.. Most of the time you don't even seem to notice. Up till now I have taken you with a grain of salt and more or less enjoyed the repartee. I will freely admit that I am equally opinionated. That is not my point here, I see no reason to fight you for the last word on this. You may have all the last words you wish. I will no longer be paying any attention. Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 28, 2006, at 12:03 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Can't you take a freaking complement ... If you were to gift someone with a compliment without adding a sneer, my attitude towards you might prove to be less hostile. However, in this case I was actually curious about your thoughts on how you would design a hybrid-electric power system since you seemed to have some thoughts about the complexity of the Synergy drive system. I didn't realize that you just wanted to make a backhanded sneer at something you know nothing about. Pardon my curiosity. Likewise on the further action to be taken, too. :-) G -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Tsk, tsk. Another family squabble. We love you both. Behave. Paul PS: I think it's okay with Godders if you call him God. If not, you can call me God:-). On Jul 28, 2006, at 6:15 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: You know Godfrey, or shall I call you God. You've had a sneer, on your virtual face, dealing with just about everyone and everything since you first appeared on this list. The number of people you have annoyed at one time or another is to my mind astounding.. Most of the time you don't even seem to notice. Up till now I have taken you with a grain of salt and more or less enjoyed the repartee. I will freely admit that I am equally opinionated. That is not my point here, I see no reason to fight you for the last word on this. You may have all the last words you wish. I will no longer be paying any attention. Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 28, 2006, at 12:03 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Can't you take a freaking complement ... If you were to gift someone with a compliment without adding a sneer, my attitude towards you might prove to be less hostile. However, in this case I was actually curious about your thoughts on how you would design a hybrid-electric power system since you seemed to have some thoughts about the complexity of the Synergy drive system. I didn't realize that you just wanted to make a backhanded sneer at something you know nothing about. Pardon my curiosity. Likewise on the further action to be taken, too. :-) G -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I doubt he'd appreciate the irony. Paul Stenquist wrote: Tsk, tsk. Another family squabble. We love you both. Behave. Paul PS: I think it's okay with Godders if you call him God. If not, you can call me God:-). On Jul 28, 2006, at 6:15 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: You know Godfrey, or shall I call you God. You've had a sneer, on your virtual face, dealing with just about everyone and everything since you first appeared on this list. The number of people you have annoyed at one time or another is to my mind astounding.. Most of the time you don't even seem to notice. Up till now I have taken you with a grain of salt and more or less enjoyed the repartee. I will freely admit that I am equally opinionated. That is not my point here, I see no reason to fight you for the last word on this. You may have all the last words you wish. I will no longer be paying any attention. Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 28, 2006, at 12:03 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Can't you take a freaking complement ... If you were to gift someone with a compliment without adding a sneer, my attitude towards you might prove to be less hostile. However, in this case I was actually curious about your thoughts on how you would design a hybrid-electric power system since you seemed to have some thoughts about the complexity of the Synergy drive system. I didn't realize that you just wanted to make a backhanded sneer at something you know nothing about. Pardon my curiosity. Likewise on the further action to be taken, too. :-) G -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
I had no doubt that PJ would continue to make snide comments. G On Jul 28, 2006, at 5:13 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: I doubt he'd appreciate the irony. Paul Stenquist wrote: Tsk, tsk. Another family squabble. We love you both. Behave. Paul PS: I think it's okay with Godders if you call him God. If not, you can call me God:-). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On 26/7/06, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: The 1999 Audi A6 has a 200hp, 2.8L six cylinder gasoline engine and is rated for 9 L/100km(about 26.1 mpg), a little less than half the fuel mileage you claim. That's a believable fuel economy for that class of car with that engine. Is yours equipped with a diesel engine? a different gasoline engine? I know several folks with Audi A6s made in the past 6 years. I think all of them would be thrilled to get 30mpg. Not to mention the insatiable draw or luxury interior plastics. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On 26/7/06, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Pity they don't make a pick up truck. That would be useful. Been making one since 1957 (original since 1948): Then: http://trucks.about.com/cs/vintagetrucks/a/landrover_truck.htm http://tinyurl.com/lfve4 Now: http://www.landrover.com/gb/en/Vehicles/Defender/Models/ Defender_single_cab_pick_up.htm http://tinyurl.com/pq6fd Totally utilitarian of course - you won't see many LR pick-ups without mud under the arches or bales in the back. For comfort go for Japanese or American ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
The 1999 Audi A6 has a 200hp, 2.8L six cylinder gasoline engine and is rated for 9 L/100km(about 26.1 mpg), a little less than half the fuel mileage you claim. That's a believable fuel economy for that class of car with that engine. Is yours equipped with a diesel engine? a different gasoline engine? I know several folks with Audi A6s made in the past 6 years. I think all of them would be thrilled to get 30mpg. Not to mention the insatiable draw or luxury interior plastics. *of*, not or. I hate typos on smart-ass quips. Sorry. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/26 Wed PM 11:36:54 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system On Jul 26, 2006, at 2:08 PM, mike wilson wrote: Pity it looks like a cross between a clog and Kryten's head. What are you saying about my dear friend Kryten? He's the complicated side of the equation. (office browsers need not apply) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/4038/alaska.wav - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
From: Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/26 Wed PM 11:52:38 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 2:08 PM, mike wilson wrote: Pity it looks like a cross between a clog and Kryten's head. What are you saying about my dear friend Kryten? He apparently hasn't seen the recent Cadillacs. I was just thinking to myself the other day that *those* things look as if they were styled after Kryten's head. Most modern cars seem to subscribe to this latest styling fashion. The one that brought it home for me was the latest Nissan Primera. I think Ford started the ball rolling. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
Yes, it's in city driving that hybrid vehicles shine. Stop and go is a mileage killer with gas engines, but hybrids use the electric motor for initial acceleration. Ford's Mercury Mariner and Ford Escape are medium sized SUVs, yet they can get 33 mpg in city driving with the hybrid powertrain. Paul On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:19 PM, Adam Maas wrote: Aaron Reynolds wrote: Seriously? No wonder we're so happy with our fuel consumption in the Golf. -Aaron -Original Message- From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Considering the Prius gets only slightly worse fuel efficiency numbers than a Golf TDI, At 49 highway MPG, it does a bit better than the Prius's actually 45 or so, the Prius is rated at 51, but gets around 45 actual MPG on the highway. Theres issues with the EPA MPG test and hybrids, as their fuel usage is different than what the test assumes. Note the Prius is rated at 60MPG in the city and the Golf TDI is only 42 (this is becuase the Prius burns no gas below 15km/h, running on electric only at that speed) -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
- Original Message - From: Cotty Subject: Re: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system Totally utilitarian of course - you won't see many LR pick-ups without mud under the arches or bales in the back. For comfort go for Japanese or American ;-) Loks like for load carrying, and towing capacity the same holds true. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: OT: Toyota hybrid-electric drive system
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: 580 miles in the Prius means 52 mpg (11 gallon tank). Mileage improves in inner city use as the electric motor gets more of the load, and in traffic there are virtually zero emissions ... the gas motor only fires up to charge the battery if it gets low, it's off when stopped in traffic. What happens to the air-con when stuck in traffic? Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
