[Phono-L] M Class Edison spotted on national news
Shepard Smith does a 'This Day In History' on FOX News most every day. Today was the 125th anniversary of the coin operated Phonograph. A photo of a group of people surrounding a Class M listening through hearing tubes from a gallery manifold was shown. While not accurate to date and type of coin operated phonograph, it was interesting to see an Edison Class M on national TV. I am sure that virtually no one in the media today could tell you what a Class M Edison was but at least they showed one. Happy Thanksgiving to all, Al Sefl Who is very thankful for the great life God and this country has given him and his family.
[Phono-L] Isn't This A Reprint? The Talking Machine 1899 Catalogue
I have two copies of an 1899 The Talking Machine catalogue that I assume to be reprints. There is a copy on eBay from Al Gerichten's collection. How does one know an original from a copy? The eBay number is 370972229899 The current bid seems way too high. Who reprinted these? It was a nice job but yet another that had no indication to set it apart from an original. Any information on these would be appreciated. Thanks and Happy New Year to All... Al . ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Just in time for Christmas... Edison Phonograph No.6
Seasons Greetings: For only $1,000 you can own an Edison Phonograph No.6 now on eBay! How some sellers can offer things without knowing a thing about them is beyond me. This Amberola 30 has the very rare 'oil spout funnel' horn. It would be funny but this seller really thinks the thing is worth the $1,000 opening bid. If someone bites then I will be truly astounded. See eBay item # 281232163262 Merry Christmas to all, may you find something with a crank handle under the tree, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Gem on Ebay My 2 Cents worth...
Greetings Ron: That particular seller takes machines apart and sells the parts separately. I am personally against parting out a working machine so I would not purchase it. That being said, the motor has a few issues. In addition to those stated in the listing, the belt idler tension pulley, arm, and spring seem to be missing. Someone has worked on the motor which indicates there may be more hidden problems created by a kitchen table repairman. Do you really want to buy this then have to go and separately buy a good Model C Reproducer, $100, replace the cabinet, $175, find a Gem cone horn, $25 reproduction. The Model C Gem would actually be correct with the 6 panel straight morning glory horn but an original can command $200 with a crane. A complete and working machine from a fellow collector would seem to be the best way to get a Gem. The ones that go for crazy prices are those with the Gem Special Automatic Speaker in a branded top cabinet with the all brass witches hat horn. Thi s makes sense due to only 20,000 being made and few surviving intact. A nice 2 minute Gem that is complete often sells on eBay for $400 to $500 depending on condition. Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Who Reprinted 1910 Edison Cat.../
Oops, the subject date should have been 1910 but my antique fingers hiccupped. On all of the fine reprints from Allen I believe somewhere there is a 'reprinted by...' so we know it was a quality reprint from him. The difference from the 1910 Form 1865 original and the reprint is the wood grained cover pattern. These reprints appear with regularity on eBay and I am sad to say the reprints are commonly listed as mint originals for which neophytes pay top dollar that an original would bring. Thanks for the responses to this mystery reprint. Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Odd cylinder reproducer
Greetings John: From everything I see, the reproducer screams 'Someone's Kitchen Table Experiment'. I have seen similar experiments to 'improve' an Edison reproducer and have a couple in my collection. In the mind of this guy who made your example, the weight was able to move so the force on the record by the stylus was inconsistent thus trimming the weight and adding a spring to give constant downward stylus force was the idea. Those people who have seen the Lyric type reproducer with its spring system and figured that Edison reproducers might be modified to use the same principle are the culprits. The most tragic form of this idea I have seen was on a Model L Reproducer and it didn't work for that one either. The booming peak resonant frequency is likely due to the weight added to the stylus bar versus the return force exerted by the aluminum diaphragm which may be way too stiff. That's my theory on the peak responses you are getting. You may also have found the resonance of the spring and the trimmed weight suspension. It is hard to tell without having the reproducer at hand to examine and run tests on. I would not play any valuable wax records with it ! ! ! Regards to all on the list, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Odd cylinder reproducer
Hi again John: Yes, you are correct, the dome will be very stiff and not be pliant at all. This means all of the flexure has to be on the metal between the dome and the outside diameter. Auto makers use curves to stiffen the bodies in the same manner as this dome diaphragm. I tend not to believe this reproducer was for a coin operated machine. I cannot recall seeing one that when modified was not then nickel plated to look all original. The marks of an amateur on this reproducer are the lack of fine craftsmanship on the weight hinge and hinge block, the glue on the limit pin socket, etc... Best wishes to all, Al -Original Message- From: john robles john9...@pacbell.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, Sep 16, 2013 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Odd cylinder reproducer Thanks Al. As to the stiffness of the diaphragm, it is actually extremely thin, however I could see that the domed area wold be stiffer due to its shape, correct? I am very tempted to replace it with an Edison diaphragm. The spring has a very light resistance, I wouldn't say it produces any more pressure than the full weight would had it not been docked. I've played indestructibles with it, and one wax cylinder, the Angels Serenade harp solo by Charles Scheutze. That's the one that creates the blast. But maybe I better stop using it - speaking of important cylinders, it is one of the first 6 cylinders I ever owned, going back 28 years or so. I still have 4 of the 6, all in mint condition. I got them at my first CAPS show back when it was still at Griswold's Hotel in Fullerton. Anyone remember that? A small conference room, no air conditioning..by afternoon it was like a sweatbox in there. John Robles From: clockworkh...@aol.com clockworkh...@aol.com To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Odd cylinder reproducer Greetings John: From everything I see, the reproducer screams 'Someone's Kitchen Table Experiment'. I have seen similar experiments to 'improve' an Edison reproducer and have a couple in my collection. In the mind of this guy who made your example, the weight was able to move so the force on the record by the stylus was inconsistent thus trimming the weight and adding a spring to give constant downward stylus force was the idea. Those people who have seen the Lyric type reproducer with its spring system and figured that Edison reproducers might be modified to use the same principle are the culprits. The most tragic form of this idea I have seen was on a Model L Reproducer and it didn't work for that one either. The booming peak resonant frequency is likely due to the weight added to the stylus bar versus the return force exerted by the aluminum diaphragm which may be way too stiff. That's my theory on the peak responses you are getting. You may also have found the resonance of the spring and the trimmed weight suspension. It is hard to tell without having the reproducer at hand to examine and run tests on. I would not play any valuable wax records with it ! ! ! Regards to all on the list, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 75 serial numbers
The highest Amberola 30 I recorded is just below 344000. The highest Amberola 50 I have recorded is just over 43000. The highest Amberola 75 in my data mine is just over 21000. So, Steve Medved's reproducer number is in the ballpark for production figures... Regards to all, Al -Original Message- From: Andrew Baron a...@popyrus.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 75 serial numbers Hi Steve ~ Do you have a sense of whether my nickel Diamond C reproducer 48233 would be original to my Amberola 50 Serial #5662? Also, any idea when the Diamond C went from nickel to black paint (year and serial number, more or less)? At a glance it seems the serial number of my Diamond C is way too high for my machine unless one factors in the greater number of Amberola 30's being produced. Still seems like a high reproducer number for the 4-digit machine serial number, but I'd like to get your opinion. This Amberola 50 is otherwise one of the best-preserved I've seen, decent and original outside, mint under the lid, very quiet and smooth low mile motor, etc. Andrew Baron On Aug 24, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Steven Medved wrote: It is a fairly low serial number, I worked on Amberola 30 number 137. My 50 is SM - - - 7488. I believe the 30 50 and 75 all had their own serial numbers as 137 had reproducer serial number 307 on it. SM is spring motor and number 137 did not have that on the ID plate. I believe just under 310,000 of the 30 50 and 75, 60, and 80's were made as I have not seen a Diamond D reproducer over 310,000. Steve Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 18:15:24 -0700 From: john9...@pacbell.net To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Amberola 75 serial numbers Hello all I just noticed that the Amberola 75 I purchased at the APS show a couple of weeks ago is serial numbered SM - - - 7072. The three dashes appear on the ID plate. I had not noticed this on other machines. Is this a low serial number? Also, the drawers do not have the clips for record boxes in them as did my last 75. I thought at first that the drawers were replacements, but on close inspection they seem to be original, with no screw holes for the clips. Can anyone enlighten me? Did the earlier machines not have the clips? Or did the earlier ones HAVE the clips and later ones don't? Thanks John Robles ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Amberola V and B5
-Original Message- From: bruce78rpm bruce78...@comcast.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 75 serial numbers Do you have the same information on the Amberola V ? Mine is serial number 845 . Greetings Bruce: My data mine on the Amberola V is from number 1 to 5953 so they may have made around 6000. After the factory fire the Amberola B5 serials start from 1 again and go up to 789 which is about the end of the cabinets left over. I hope that helps. Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Amberola 80
I would have to agree with Steve Medved. Very likely 100 or less were made of each model, the 60 and the 80. Steve has seen more of them than I have. If I had research priveledges with the Site the 60 and 80 would be something to look into. I don't believe they had their own manuals but that is just an opinion. Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: mobility scooters mobilityscoot...@xtra.co.nz To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 2:28 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Amberola 80 Al, Do you have any information for the Amberola 80 machines. Also do you know if they made a sales brochure or manual for the Amberola 80? Thanks Tony ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Pot metal swelling geographically speaking (new topic)
While the term 'potmetal' was used for many low melting point alloys the modern name for the potmetal we are familiar with is 'die cast zinc.' Zinc is actually a wonderful metal to cast with a melting point of 419.53 °C or 787.15 °F. This is low enough so that a mold can easily be made of many materials. Today the purity of zinc is very high, around 99.999% before it is mixed with other metals to make alloys. Aluminum is common but any alloy commonly raises the melting point so pure zinc is preferred for most applications. Some metals cannot be added to the zinc in even tiny amounts without creating a dimensionally unstable alloy. The potmetal problems we see on phonographs is mostly due to 'inter granular crystal growth' and is not temperature related. The old timers called this 'dezincification' which is a misnomer since the zinc really does not go anywhere unless a piece falls off. If even a tiny amount of certain elements like tin, lead, cadmium, sulfur, or other contaminate is introduced into the liquid casting metal the result with time will be slow deformation of the casting as atomic bonds dissociate along crystal lines while other crystals actually grow. Thus, some portions of the solid casting may contract while others expand. A very pure potmetal will be dimensionally stable for very long periods of time. The contaminated batches may have been inadvertent. Old pipe organ pipes made of zinc could have been used for scrap in the melting pot without the people thinking about the lead/tin solder seams. Just that small amount of contamination is enough to ruin a full batch of zinc. Some batches were very pure and that is why you can find a perfect potmetal reproducer body with some regularity. Another problem is the cooling rate when the casting was removed. A rapid cooling of a die cast zinc will leave stress in the metal. A slow cooling allows for the metal to naturally anneal at lower stress. Die cast zinc today that needs to be accurate to a high degree is removed from the mold and allowed to go through a series of cooler furnaces before reaching room temperature. There are environmental elements that can add to a bad batch of zinc. If the casting was exposed to salt air (a.k.a. sodium chloride) or acidic air such as the sulfur dioxide coal plants produce, then any porosity may become a source of oxidation and the casting will suffer. Zinc oxide will form along the microscopic lines between zinc crystals and they too will cause expansion but much less than a bad batch would cause. But HEY, these things were not supposed to last more than a couple of centuries anyway! ! ! May all your finds be rare ones, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] R S O N tops
Thanks Steve, it is always fun to attend the Medved University on line Reproducers 101 course... Kindest regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Edison Model R Reproducer
Hi Tom: I own 5 Model R Reproducers and have never seen a press fit. They all have had the three screws. I guess we will have to wait for Steve Medved to chime in with his findings. As for the low volume, the reproducer should be taken apart and serviced. Sometimes the diaphragm will have dirt and caked in grime that won't let it vibrate as designed. New gaskets for a tight seal might help. And I would be sure the 4 minute sapphire is good with a fresh face down. A worn stylus can give lousy sound. The linkage and stylus bar fulcrum may need work too. Also, be sure the stylus bar is the correct one for this reproducer. There are many Edison Reproducers that were assembled by kitchen table technicians showing up on eBay. Every time I think I have seen it all, something new comes along. Please let the list know what you find when the riddle of poor performance is solved. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Tom Jordan tom...@msn.com To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Aug 8, 2013 8:00 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Phono L I recently purchased an Edison Model R reproducer on e-bay to replace the one that I had to sell several years ago. The one that I owned before was a pressed fit (front and back). This one has three very small screws on the back. Will someone please tell me if the model R's were ever made this way or have I accidentally purchased a FrankenR? I have a few photos available if anyone would like to see them. The reproducer plays, but frankly, my C reproducers are much louder than this R. It seems to be in need of a rebuild. Thank you. Tom ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Questions about Edison Standard machine
Hello Chuck: Yes, this is an ICS Language Edison machine. The speed control on the Standard was removed with the end of the Model A *except* for the ICS machines which played at 90 RPM so the records would play for a longer time at the expense of sound quality. You had to dial the speed down for the ICS record so voice would not sound too high in pitch. I would immediately tell the museum they are destroying their 2 minute wax records by playing them with the Model H Reproducer. The increase in sound quality with the correct Model C that has been serviced by someone like Steve Medved would astound them. As for the lift lever, I would think that it was removed at some point. A close look might reveal the screw hole where the lever would have been mounted. The repeat bar for the ICS was so that phrases could be played over and over and is a plus feature but not much use for a normal record. I would urge the museum to seek a professional look at the machine. If it were close to me I would do it for free and find them a lift lever or lift pin, whichever it needed. Sent them my email address if they have any interest in making it right. If this serial number of the machine is above 245000 then you should find the motor on springs rather than being snug up against the bedplate with rubber dampers and it will be a Model B Standard. Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: chuck richards chuc...@all2easy.net To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Aug 1, 2013 6:08 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Questions about Edison Standard machine Recently I saw a working Edison Standard (model B I think) machine at the Dewitt County Museum. It has a few odd things about it: It has a carriage that has no lift lever. This carriage has teeth on the bottom which engage a spring-loaded rack that's bolted to the carriage-rest. When the rack is moved via its button, the carriage lifts and drops back a couple of grooves. Is this the language-teaching setup? What's odd about it is that there's no way to rest the carriage in the up position, which makes changing records a real hassle. This machine has an end gate, and it also has 2/4 gearing although I can't get it to budge so far out of the 2M gearing. It only has a model H reproducer, which the museum is using to play Gold Moulded 2M records! This machine has the funky early half-a-gearcase-cover So, is this carriage perhaps just missing its left lever? Seems to me that the rack assembly might need to be removed from the carriage rest, and maybe a different carriage substituted, (one that has a lift lever or the button). I am quite familiar with the Standard model D, but those earlier ones such as this one the museum has, are sort of new to me. It has the speed adjustment on the top of the bedplate. Any ideas about what the best thing to do might be to get that carriage so that it can at least rest in the up position? Thanks, Chuck Richards $4.95/mo. National Dialup, Anti-Spam, Anti-Virus, 5mb personal web space. 5x faster dialup for only $9.95/mo. No contracts, No fees, No Kidding! See http://www.All2Easy.net for more details! ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] My Attempt at Model O reproducer quiz
1. What year was the reproducer in the photo made? Steve, is that a trick question? I think that O was put together from parts in 2013. 2. What is unusual about the reproducer in the photo? The serial number is from the R and S Reproducers. The weight has the large O which was later. The thumb knob has a pointer which an early brass topped iron body with a low serial number would not have had. The pointer came along many many thousand later than 491. An original O body should have a milled cove in the body rim for the carriage arm locking screw to hold the Reproducer in place. If the body were an N there would be that milled cove also. 3. When did the first pot metal O tops come out? Sometime after serial number 12462 and before 13340; but, as a date, I would hazard a wild guess that it was for the Home E in March 1911. 4. What is the difference between an O, N, and N-56 R S top? Hole placement, number of holes for screws, and limit pin thread pitch. I know I am missing a lot but I am too lazy to go grab a bunch for comparison. 5. When did the dome tops come out? I have a potmetal dome N serial 17612. Since they were announced in November 1911, I would guess January 1912. It is late and my brain is on idle so I know that's wrong. Like many sellers on eBay the description was written just to have something to read. Any factual semblance to reality is purely accidental. Too many sellers are downright misleading to con newbies into buying their junk. SAD... OK Steve, I await your comments to be enlightened and educated. Note: this has nothing to do with the seller, it is all about learning and this is the best way to learn as it illustrates several important reproducer principles I hope to make common knowledge. Thanks for the brain exercise, I look forward to the answers, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] another eBay turkey...
Beware the current listing of a branded case Gem by a California seller. The machine first appeared in a listing showing the serial number to be over 105000 which meant it was a later Gem A. It has a Model C Reproducer in the late larger diameter carriage that would be too large for the special Gem Automatic Speaker a branded Gem should have. Even his patent date of 1903 is wrong for a branded case Gem since the machine appeared for a short duration following the caseless Gem up to the improved Gem A with the Model B Reproducer before the end of 1901. I told the seller that the branded case Gem appeared around 17000 and was gone by 37000. So...I gently tell the guy the lid was a branded case Gem one put onto a later A that should have the banner transfer decal and he comes back with attitude and a claim the machine had a serial around 27000. The photo of the patent plate with the higher serial number has been removed from the listing. Starting bid is just under one kilobuck for this bargain. Bid at your own risk and I hope some poor neophyte doesn't bite. Did the guy from Pittsburgh move to California? His last message to me was: I am getting tired of all the advises by so called EXPERTS Regards to all on the list, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] The Maharaja of Crapophones....
This one should win some sort of prize for the most effort put into a crapophone... 111077669570 is the eBay item number and it has already been pulled. The Orthophonic sound box and arm driving the old PA speaker bell must be a wonder. Too bad there were no attached audio tracks. Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] The Death of Amberola III SN304
I sent this off to the seller and got the same answer as you, Peter: Dear peachland250, A friendly note, the machine you are breaking up is one of only 1,200 Amberola III machines made. The few remaining examples have historically been worth more than the parts since collectors value the machine as a whole and yours has the serial number on the cabinet too. Few collectors will need parts other than the motor and the reproducer. The last time an Amberola III sold at auction here in California, it went for $3,200 and it was not as clean as yours. I would be surprised if you get that much for the various components. My goal was to instill a good case of SELLER'S REMORSE... Since inducing guilt in the face of greed rarely works ! ! ! Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Peter Fraser pjfra...@mac.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, Mar 23, 2013 8:00 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] The Death of Amberola III SN304 Well now some of the bits have sold. So uncool to break up a perfectly good machine like that. I contacted him further and politely suggested he reconsider, and he responded: IF SOMEONE WINS ALL THE AUCTIONS I HAVE ON THIS GRAMOPHONE. THEY WILL GET THE COMPLETE GRAMOPHONE. I WILL NOT PART IT OUT - peachland250 Sent from my iPhone -- Peter pjfra...@mac.com ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] The Death of Amberola III SN304
It is with great sadness that I note the death of a fine and rare example of an Amberola III. The III wasn't even sick. It played until the bitter end. It's death came at the hands of someone on eBay who decided to part it out. The cabinet, rear inspection door, motor, Diamond A Reproducer, and other parts were drawn and quartered because someone figured they would sell for more than the whole machine. I believe only about 1,200 of these machines were made. They are only rarely found in such nice condition as 304 was. We Edison fanatics will miss her. Best wishes to a very quiet list, Al -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phonolist phonol...@yahoogroups.com; phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Mar 21, 2013 6:15 pm Subject: [Phono-L] For sale square box Combination attachment for Edison Standard Phonograph Model B $27.00 Hello, I have photos, $27.00 includes priority mail shipping in a 7x7x6 box. The box is excellent, it does show age the label is brown but all there. It has the smaller box cemented inside with the holder for the Model H reproducer. I have photos if anyone is interested. I paid $20 or $25 for it years ago, with shipping I will about break even. Steve ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] IS IT DOWN?
OK, was it something I said? There has been only 1 posting since last Friday to my email address from Phono-L. My own posting has not shown up either. Have I been excommunicated? Is it because I only own a Victor II and a VTLA with the rest being just Edison machines? Oops, I forgot I have a Columbia Eagle somewhere, can that bring me some redemption? Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Welcome Chuck 2nd Attempt at Posting
If this is a duplicate posting to some, sorry about that. It did not come through on my phono-l messages even though it was sent last night. I assume the server did not pass it on. Here is what I posted: ~~ Welcome Chuck, I am just sending this quick note and will have to try your link tomorrow. Way back in the stone age I was casting cylinders with a high speed centrifugal mold. The bubbles and other unwanted materials went inward and away from the recording surface. I was using melted down Ediphone cylinders so I am looking forward to reading about your formulations. As for your Edison Standard Model D, WONDERFUL ! ! ! Nothing brings a smile to most collectors as when someone has a Phonograph for a family heirloom. Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Turntable Sewing Machine Universal Motor Question
Many great comments were made while I was away this weekend. As they say, one picture is worth a thousand words. Your motor is a sewing machine motor. I had assumed that the Ferrygraph used an induction motor. The sewing machine motor is common and can be found on eBay with some frequency. See eBay item #281066725702 for one similar and go to eBay to see all of the sewing machine motors they have constantly on auction. Just search under sewing machine motors until you see one like yours though it may take some time for the exact motor. See eBay #11014372434 for an example. Jim, et al., had the right tracks on the universal motor. An open field coil (1 of the usual 2) or open armature windings could cause the problem you have but bad brushes not making contact is the overwhelming reason for universal motor failure. You should disassemble the motor, put the armature into a latch chuck, and use an electric armature cleaning tool (never sandpaper) to bring the individual contacts on the commutator back to a nice copper shine. The brushes should have a solid contact on the commutator for ample current to flow. Their condition is of prime importance. High resistance here is diagnosed by no torque as you describe. The way the universal motor works in an Edison phonograph, Alva, or Edison Business Phonograph, Ediphone, is to have the AC directly across the motor and the induction of the iron and copper coils limits the AC current. For DC a series resistor, rheostat in some cases, is the current limiting component. Come to think of it, you could buy an Edison Ediphone motor on eBay and if it fit that would work for you. However, all that being said, I would hope you can get the original motor working. Look in the yellow pages for sewing machine repair and call around. If all else fails, contact me to see if I have time to look at the original motor. I love this list for the depth knowledge it has... I am always learning something... best wishes to all... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Turntable Motor Question
Induction motors that lack torque can usually be traced to an open field coil or an open armature loop. A shorted turn will eat torque but the motor will let you know by getting hot. How about a photo of the motor? Most good motor shops can fix anything from fractional horsepower to 100 HP.Do you know of a fan collector in your area? I have repaired fan motors that lost power and have the same symptoms of your phonograph. These things are not rocket science. Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Last of the Edison Standards... was N Reproducers...
Hi Steve: The Edison Standard line ended just above serial number 82. At the end of production the Standard E with either the Diamond B or N was stamped Model G... BUT this was only a very few machines and that is why they are so rare. The Standard E 4 minute only machine with the Diamond B and #10 Cygnet horn went all the way up through the mid 818000's. The ICS 2 minute Model C was made until the last and Standard Ds and Es were converted to ICS 2 minute players along the way. The serial numbers were intertwined for maximum confusion today. The highest Standard E with an N Reproducer I have in my 'field study' is 816325 and the N is serial #95759. I own N s/n A24 which was not with a machine when I bought it. Steve, have you seen any Ns with a higher number? And now an open question for the list members, does anyone have a Standard over 818000? What model is it? ICS? Model D x'ed out and C or something else stamped in? The only way to get a clear picture of those closing days is to do some data mining. Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Last of the Edison Standards... Model F...
Thanks Jeff: The Standard Model F was configured with the small diameter horizontal carriage. Edison didn't mess around with it and the 10 panel black #10 Cygnet, the Model S Reproducer, 2/4 minute gears were the normal form in which the F left the factory. The first Fs had the D x'ed out and this was done only occassionally in the middle of the production figures. Your D x'ed out F is not commonly found in the middle of the F serial range your machine is in. Al -Original Message- From: Jeff Cecil njce...@sbcglobal.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Cc: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Last of the Edison Standards... was N Reproducers... I have a D Xed out and marked F. Sn 788282. Cygnet wood horn and small horizontal carriage. 2/4 gear. Only thing I added was the reproduction S reproducer. Jeff Cecil Sent from my iPhone ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] update that Triumph or not?
What Triumph cabinet does it have? If it is a banner Triumph Model A then I would definitely NOT drill holes into one of these cabinets. The later raised panel with a thicker wood is better suited from a material strength viewpoint. What reproducer does it have? A Model O in a horizontal carriage would suggest a Cygnet horn would be a good addition so the 'new' holes might not detract from the machine. If the carriage is a 45º small carriage with a Model C reproducer then I would stick with a smaller straight horn. Is the machine equipped with a 2 and 4 minute mandrel shaft gearing? Has the cabinet been refinished? Many factors need to be considered. In making a decision to alter something that has remained the same for 100+ years, one must think if the modification would have been accurate to the machine and how it will change the monetary value. Triumphs late D and D2, E, F, and G should already have the factory drilled holes. A 2 minute Model C Triumph is a rare bird, I would leave it virginal. A Triumph Model B with added horizontal carriage and an O Reproducer has already been altered, drill away Gridley. A Triumph A banner would have me want to return it to its catalog configuration. I have taken out 2/4 minutes gears on some of my machines and made them like their original description from a contemporaneous catalog. Anything earlier like a Spring Motor and it would be sacrilege to drill the holes. Did I mention that I am an opinionated old fart? Best wishes to all on the list, Al Who thought swans used Cygnet horns to keep from bumping into each other on the pond... ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] N reproducers on standard E's BORING MATERIAL ALERT
Thank you Steve, to me this is definitely NOT boring. It helps those of us interested in telling the Edison story in a more complete way to see trends and get a better picture of the closing days to the outside horn Edison cylinder machines. Please keep up the great work. Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Edison Stylus Link Spring on N and L Reproducers
Hi Brad, Al here: Yes that bar is for an Edison 'N' reproducer and the little L shaped piece is the retainer for the spring that surrounds the stylus bar link on some Model Ns and Model Ls. Steve will have the info on which ones by serial. Merry Christmas to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Model N vs Indestructible N
Thanks Steve: For some reason I thought you were away and attempted a quick answer to Brad. I knew you would have a veritable encyclopedia on the stylus and spring variants. BTW - the phono-l server seems to be way slow this evening. Must be a governor problem. Merry Christmas to you, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Home Banner to Script
Hi Steve: My notes show Home Model B #217170 and earlier having the full black banner varnish transfer. The first Home with the simple Edison script I have a note on is #217743. After that all are script. One must ignore machines that are anomalies due to cabinet swaps and refinishing with modern water transfer decals. One has to cringe and chuckle at the same time when a Home D shows up with a banner label which the seller states is all original and in mint condition. I hope that helps. Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Red Banner Long Case Edison Home A
Hello Michael: You will find the red banner range of the Model A 'long case' Home to be from the introduction of the 'New Cabinet' style to H52234 which is the highest I have confirmed. By H52251 the black banner has been used and the red is history. I have seen a seller on eBay with a refinished Home B cabinet using a modern red banner decal declare the machine to be an all original rare and highly desirable red banner Home. Again, this makes me want to scream at the computer... Regards, Al PS: The 'New Style Cabinet' came in just before 41000. So, about 12,000 red banner long case Home As were made. -Original Message- From: Michael F. Khanchalian mfkhanchal...@altrionet.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:02 am Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Any idea around what serial number the banner Home case was dropped? While we're at it gang, I'd love to know the range of serial numbers within which the early red banner (originally placed on the lid) appeared on the front of the Home case. Michael K. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 15, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Mike Tucker mtucker1...@gmail.com wrote: I have 205836 with a banner. Records are not up to date so will try to see if any are higher. Mike Tucker On 16/12/2012 2:59 PM, George Paul wrote: I know - - I was just being a smart ass. The Edison Phonograph Monthly announced the end of the banner decals on all models in the September 1906 issue. Taking into account the set-up for that issue occurring in August, about the closest I can estimate is that the Home lost the banner decal around serial No.210,000 or a bit earlier depending on how long the change had been in effect when it was announced in the EPM that ...all models are now being sent out... with the new decal. A safe range would probably be between 205,000 and 210,000. George P. -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org; phonolist phonol...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Any idea around what serial number the banner Home case was dropped? That is what I meant to ask. I wish I could afford an editor. Steve ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Branded case Gem with Gem speaker (off list)
Greetings Steve: I just returned from my Asia cruise and spotted your question. The Gem went through a number of mechanical variations as well as esthetic ones from the caseless version through the last of the keywound Model As. The carriages are not interchangeable and the feedscrews with drive gears are not the same from the first to the last As. The serial number range of the branded case Gem stops just after 36000. So, if the serial is 37000 or later then the banner varnish transfer (decal) label is the correct one and the Gem Special Automatic Speaker was changed to the Model B Reproducer about the same time. (maybe even together at the same time) There is one seller on eBay who mixes parts and called a later branded case Gem a 'transitional model' which drove me crazy! You cannot have a carriage arm built-in Gem Automatic up in the 36000s when a bayonet in Gem Special Automatic was introduced some 20,000 machines earlier... I hope this helps. Best wishes, Al PS: Above information guaranteed to be 50% correct as I am still jet lagged to the nth degree. -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phonolist phonol...@yahoogroups.com; phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Wed, Dec 5, 2012 10:41 am Subject: [Phono-L] Branded case Gem with Gem speaker If the carriage and the lid is missing how would you tell a branded case Gem from the later Gem with the Model B reproducer? The reproducers are not interchangeable, but is the carriages? Thanks, Steve ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison 11 panel cygnet horn
They are more scarce since they were made in smaller numbers than the #10 Cygnet. This should translate to higher prices with one caveat. The #11 was really for the Triumph D2. You could put it on an E, F, or G Triumph if you didn't have the original Music Master Wood Cygnet Horn. When converting an earlier A, B, or C Triumph to 2 and 4 minute operation, the #11 was offered as a less expensive horn than the Music Master. From what I have seen, people who upgraded their Triumph went more for the Music Master than the #11. I was recently outbid on a #11 Cygnet that was just on eBay but only by 1 higher bid. It went for less than I had figured so I ended up with bidders remorse. I should have bid more aggressively... Best wishes to all, Al -Original Message- From: Barry Kasindorf ba...@barrykasindorf.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 3:58 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Edison 11 panel cygnet horn Hi, I have this black and gold horn and it is extra. I got it because I thought it went with a Triumph but I don't have a machine for it anymore. Is it worth more than a regular 10 panel? -- -Barry ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison 11 panel cygnet horn
The #11 sold for $268.88 and was repainted on the inside via spray can. It had some minor damage but was still presentable. The low price is no surprise. Our national economy has not gotten on a recovery track yet. Right now on eBay there is a nice Triumph Model E with O Reproducer and Music Master Wood Cygnet Horn. It has no bids even though the horn alone is worth the opening bid. In fact there are a number of Triumphs on eBay at the moment with not much bidding on them. A couple may sell at a bargain price. What they close for will be interesting. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] early electric phono repair man? SAFETY comments
Greetings Edward: I do all my own restorations. When it comes to anything electronic, the first thing you need to know is the model number and serial number. From that you can get to step 2, finding a schematic diagram. I would recommend Peter Wall in San Francisco but he is a long way from you. There must be someone in your area who will do the restoration but likely any professional will charge a hefty fee. The model and serial are likely put on the back of the cabinet or on a plaque attached to the radio or amplifier chassis. Andrew is quite correct about the capacitors being dead. The speakers of that era used the field coil for a choke (inductor) to smooth out the rectified DC in the power supply so when the caps are dead you get 60Hz hum coming from the speaker. You really should never apply full operating current to any old TV or Radio that hasn't worked in years. Bad things can happen quickly to delicate components. Shops specializing in old electronics often have Photofacts or Wiley's service bulletins. Again this starts with the model number. Lastly, don't go poking around when the unit is powered up. Some units like my Edison C2 have HOT potentiometer shafts. I can tell you that to have a few hundred volts surge through your body is no fun. These old units are best safely brought up in line voltage slowly with a variac and made more safe with an isolation transformer. Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Researching at The Site - was Standard clips
I enquired with the Edison Site about 2 years ago and got turned down flat. Oddly, I am not a paper collector in the true since of the word so I am a zero threat. Nor have I ever sold anything (ask my wife). My idea is that a photocopy on 100% cotton rag bond paper is worth more than an original. The reason being that the information on the paper is worth more than the paper itself and the old chemically bleached paper will disintegrate long before the rag bond coy even begins to yellow. With a modern photocopy machine you may even increase the contrast and exposure to make the copy more legible than the original. Thus the copy is way better than the original to my way of thinking. Sadly, much of the esoteric information we seek will not make it into the Rutgers U Edison Papers. I doubt they would recognize a single sheet with a notation, Started to ship Standards with the set screw carriage arms this week. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Thank you and this week on eBay...
I humbly say thank you to those who sent me a compliment. This week on eBay there were several reasons why I wrote my Master Thesis on Edison machines then worked with George Frow to do the book. Item 1 was a rare 200 thread per inch feedscrew and record mandrel from an M electric that allowed it to play Amberol records ! ! ! This seller doesn't know that even Edison could not make that work so a planetary gear was used on the 100 TPI feedscrew for the 200 TPI records. But since he pulled the mandrel and feedscrew off of an M and the threads looked more fine to his eyes that is what ended up in the listing. It's an M mandrel ! ! ! Item 2 was a rare two piece Fireside Horn reproduction. This is one of the peach can Bondo Frick's Freaks horns. I am surprised it hasn't come apart so someone had to take good care of it for the last 50 years. Karl cut out the screw caps from cooking oil cans to make the screw connection between the two pieces of the horn. The caps were rather narrow to the horn is slim until after the connection then the 'bloom' on the bell is rapid. Viewed from the side it just looks odd at best. Item 3 is a Standard with a broken reproducer limit pin and broken stylus bar diaphragm link. I contacted the seller and was told, Every thing is there and it all works! I guess I must be like Don Quixote jousting with windmills. Best wishes everyone, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Standard Reproducer Ciips to Holding Screw
Hi Steve: My notes differ from the numbers you had. I have Standard S#51888 as having clips but by S#52180 shipped without them but having the set screw. I have often said that Edison machines were assembled but not on a perfectly inline assembly line. Early parts at the bottom of a parts bin often ended up on later machines, within reason. It would not surprise me that newer screw securing carriage arms were put on top of earlier clip arms and those clip arms were put on later when the bottom of the bin was reached. Steve, since you are THE Edison Reproducer expert, how do you explain that Edison kept making Reproducers with the adjusting arms long after all the machines had alignment pins and the securing screws? I cannot imagine a scenario that results in adjusting arm equipped Reproducers being produced with high serial numbers so much later than the clips were phased out. How I would love to have research privileges at the Site... Oh well, these esoteric questions may be answered by some future scholar. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Gem Model E Hello Al, Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed yourself. I have often wondered when the Edison phonograph carriages went from clips to the set screw. George Paul tells me Standard 52182 that has the clips and 53411 that has the screw left the factory in April 1902. He has data that tells when machines left the factory. I guess the set screw came out in October 1901 as the early B got the notch in the 17,000 range and the Model C appeared around 25,000, but this is only a guess based on the Frow book saying the standard got the push pull lift know in October 1901 when it did not get it until around Standard S108,000 which would have been way into 1902. It is my idea he got the push pull lift know and the set screw mixed up. I have learned it is very hard to pin Edison products down with dates. Best regards, Steve Steve, Both No.52182 and No.53411 left the factory about April 1902. Makes sense, doesn't it? Best,George To: phono-l@oldcrank.org From: clockworkh...@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 01:59:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Gem Model E Hi Steve: The highest number Model N Reproducer in a Gem E that I know of is 67830. It is a domed one with the large N on the fishtail weight. Hope that helps... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Gem Model E
Hi Steve: The highest number Model N Reproducer in a Gem E that I know of is 67830. It is a domed one with the large N on the fishtail weight. Hope that helps... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] an interesting price for al self a.k.a. SEFL
Hi Guys! I just got back from one week in Boston and a 5 week cruise to Europe so am answering this posting late. Yes, that is Leah Burt's copy and I do hope she is OK. She was a great help. I had trouble selling the book at $20 which was a small loss on each copy. I cannot imagine anyone buying a copy for $500. Somewhere I have a couple of copies that George and I signed in case anyone ever asked for an autographed copy by both authors. I know of only 10 copies signed by both of us. My ego was never tied up in the book so I only signed copies when asked to do so. When I did it usually was something sappy like, May all your finds be rare ones! Truly it was my hope that every collector would find something truly spectacular, rare, and maybe something the book missed completely. At the time I was only missing a few machines to complete my collection. My payoff for the book were the machines I needed like a Triumph C and G. I usually put my want list into each book. God bless my fellow collectors they came through! The books sold by me were specially stamped and numbered for U.S. sales, books 1 to 1000. Only about 800 copies were sold as 200 were water damaged and crushed in shipping. George's idiot printer failed to insure them or pack them safely and that took away any profit. Those copies that George had were begun to be numbered sometime later and the second thousand copies he started with copy 01 so Leah's copy at 05 was really 1005. I hope those who still have copies continue to enjoy them. If they helped someone NOT to buy a conglomeration of odd parts then I am happy. Kindest regards to all on the list, Al Sefl ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Greek Amberol Record Question
When it comes to records I am a total idiot. I had a new collector ask me about this Blue Amberol: blue amberol 11801 Ele Pame Sta Xena by G.N. Helmis Can anyone shed light on this one? Is it rare? He wants to know if it is valuable? Common or not? Thanks for any help, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] al sefl
Dear Ron: Thank you for the kind words. When I started collecting there was only the Read - Welch book, From Tinfoil to Stereo. Now we have a wealth of information from many fine authors and researchers. The collector society groups have regularly turned out some very respectable research articles as well. I very much enjoy seeing how the hobby has become aware of phonographic history and embraced it. Tim and Paul's great books would go nowhere without active collectors purchasing their great works. So, the real thanks should go to the collectors like yourself who seek knowledge about what they have, what is original, and how to preserve it. Your support is the real power keeping this history alive. AND... That would be everyone else on this list too ! ! ! Kindest regards to all, Al -Original Message- From: zonophone2006 zonophone2...@aol.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 4:19 am Subject: [Phono-L] al sefl hi al ow you are one of the best i have known on the list ears ago when you first wrote the book with george on edison phonographs you ere kind enough to sell me two copies and autograph them nd you introduced me by mail to george frow who i bought his new edison diamond isk book from t is nice to have a lot of people on this list with varying expertise nd tim, you and george paul have done us all a great service on the great books ou both have done ob mallett __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Turpentine - odorless is a turpenoid substitute -
The 'odorless' turpentine is a petroleum derivative. When I am making my secret recipe belt dressing to keep a new leather belt from slipping and protect it for the next 100 years, I use real turpentine as the carrier solvent. The odor actually smells like 'old phonograph' so my wife puts a dab behind each ear when she wants some attention. Best to the list, Al -Original Message- From: John SHEETS joh...@toast.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Fri, May 25, 2012 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Turpentine I believe there is an odorless turpentine--artists use it. ttp://www.artsupply.com/Turpenoid-Odorless-Turpentine_c_666.html 012/5/25 Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com: Turpentine come from the sap of pine trees, in Florida they used to remove the ark which killed the tree like in the photo in this article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine It was hard work so prison inmates often did it as no one else wanted to. Later they make pots that you could nail to a tree to extract and not kill the ree, a man I work with found the fragments of the pots in his backyard. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=turpentine+pot Steve ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org -- ohn S. __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Hope Springs Eternal - Ebay listing alert.
Has anybody bought the $6,666.66 Edison Standard B in China yet? Listing # 140750878007 . What is really funny is the way the YouTube video shows the guy attempting to get the machine to play. I suspect the people who put listings like this are really hoping for one of the suckers born every minute as P.T. Barnum pointed out. If it sells I'm putting up for a mere $5,000 a Home B with Edison's signature on it, IN GOLD... Almost forgot, this machine is listed as a Mother's Day present. I know what my wife would do if I bought her an Edison Phonograph for Mother's Day, and it wouldn't be pretty! Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Diamond Disc grills cloth question
Hi John: When it comes to Diamond Disc machines there are many factors that sometimes come together for a result that doesn't make sense. The A-200 Queen Anne's introduction in 1912 was somewhat hurried and it was supposed to have a wood grained horn to match the cabinet finish. The some of the later A-200s did have grille cloth. Production of machines were done by Edison while the cabinets were outsourced. They didn't always get their messages straight between the two. As with all Edison machines, the serial number will give a time frame to make an educated guess as to what happened. My big question is why call this machine a Queen Anne? Was Queen Anne really that bow-legged? Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: john robles john9...@pacbell.net To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, Apr 23, 2012 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola grills cloth question That raises a question from me...I have a lovely Diamond Disc A-200 with a lovely grained horn. It was my thought that the machines with grained horns had no cloth, yet the grille on this one had shreds of the original cloth on it. Any thoughts on that?? It matches the original cloth on another Edison I had. John Robles From: Bob Maffit maff...@bresnan.net To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola grills cloth question thanks -Original Message- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of clockworkh...@aol.com Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 8:59 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola grills cloth question One more loose thought, the Amberolas B5, D6, etc. that were shipped from cabinets left over after the December 1914 factory fire with the Amberola 30 and 50 mechanisms will have grille clothes to keep buyers from seeing the 'lovely' black swinging horn behind the grille. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Diamond Disc grilles cloth questions...
Greetings Doctor: I am not sure that 'correct' is a word to apply to minor variations on Edison machines. The machines were assembled from parts and shipped as fast as they could. Variations from suppliers and from their own factory mechanisms were to be expected. The B-60 was a 1913-14 machine. It was sometime in this period that a decision was made to use the grille cloth rather than the more expensive and more time consuming wood graining of the horns. It really should not be a surprise to find both in a machine as production brought the cabinets together with the mechanisms as one of the last steps in assembly. I don't think I have ever seen a B-60 that did not have grille cloth original from the factory; but, I would not rule out a machine that never had cloth. As for the wood grained horns, these may have been ordered that way long before production of the machine. There were many production problems with the motor of these early DD machines and sometimes the assembly was halted to redesign the motor. No doubt earlier horns had stockpiled and were used as production resumed. So, you could have a wood grained horn from early 1913 going into a grille clothed cabinet of 1914. Had the fire not come along in 1914, you might h ave seen these models without the wood grained horns and only flat black horns behind grille cloth. These are the type of things that I would find interesting to look for at the Edison Site. Too bad the Site has such limited access to serious researchers. Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: Michael F. Khanchalian mfkhanchal...@altrionet.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Mon, Apr 23, 2012 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola grills cloth question Here's a loose question for you Al or any others. On the B-60 or C-60 DD machine. I have seen original illustrations with grill cloth, yet these have wood grained horns. What's correct here? Kindest thanks for your thoughts. Michael Khanchalian (Cylinder Doctor) On Apr 23, 2012, at 7:58 PM, clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: One more loose thought, the Amberolas B5, D6, etc. that were shipped from cabinets left over after the December 1914 factory fire with the Amberola 30 and 50 mechanisms will have grille clothes to keep buyers from seeing the 'lovely' black swinging horn behind the grille. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Amberola grills cloth question
One quick and easy way to tell if the Amberola had a grille cloth or not is to see if the horn is wood grained. The Amberola IA, IB, III, IV, V, IV, VIII, and X series of Diamond Amberolas had wood grained horns so they did not need to have grille cloth to disguise the internal horn. When the Amberola 30, 50, 75, and later 60 and 80 came along it was determined that a quickly glued in grille cloth would be less expensive than the wood grained paint process. So you have an ugly black horn hidden behind the cloth. Along the way people have added grille cloth to the earlier Amberolas (to keep the dust out) and taken the cloth out of the later ones (to let the sound out); thus, there is confusion today. I hope this helps, Al Sefl Edison Nut... ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Another eBay monster.- GEM B repainted red
I have been in contact with the radio tube guy with the 'reddish' Gem B. He was not aware of what it was and has emailed me that he will pull the listing. I also told him that the machine could not possibly work well with the halfnut and bar missing from the rear of the carriage. It would play a few grooves then begin to skip. I suspect he was selling the machine for someone else and thought he could make a quick buck but didn't know much about it. So, this appears to be just another newbie who didn't know what he had and went with something he found on the *never wrong* internet. Remember seeing an Edison Standard Model B in an antique shop with a price tag of $1,200 because Kovel's said so? Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] AMET 90081
Greetings Allen: Sorry, this is yet another case of my fingers being faster than my ancient brain. No, Class M topworks in the 9000 range is what I meant to say. The Amet topworks is identical to Class M topworks in the 9000s range that I have seen. The highest Class M topworks with the correct idler pulley stanchions is around 26000 if my memory serves. The Spring Motors and Triumphs continued the serials in order and topped out just over 9 as they shipped the last of the Triumph Model Gs in 1912. Therefore, a real serial of 90081 is not reasonable. So, M Class topworks #90081 presents a conundrum for which we may never have an answer. Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: AllenAmet allena...@aol.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Fri, Mar 23, 2012 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] AMET 90081 Do you mean also in this 9 range? allen - In a message dated 3/23/2012 5:17:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, clockworkh...@aol.com writes: I have access to an M Class that is virtually identical with a serial only a few* numbers away.* ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] FeeBay AMET photos
OK, so now FeeBay has an Amet motor machine and I would like to get full sized shots of the machine; but, the only way I can view things is with their stupid magnifier box. Does anyone on this list know how to get full sized shots without the zoom box cropping? This is just one more annoying change FeeBay has made recently. They are like the government, they make ill-thought-out changes just to justify their existence and they don't care who they inconvenience or effect. Thanks for any suggestions, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] AMET photos full screen?
Thanks everyone, I have tried three different browsers. The full screen image still does not come through. A larger image does appear on Firefox but it is still only one quarter size. I'd like the full screen jpg ! ! ! I will give George Glastis a call this evening and let him talk me thourgh it. I have been in contact with the Amet seller who is very surprised at how the auction is going. The seller asked me to provide some information on the Amet which I have done. My Amet is in the Edison Cylinder Phonographs books. It will be interesting to see how much this one goes for. It has the first Amet motor and not the later (2 years) Peerless motor. Note the serial number of 90081 on the Class M topworks... odd, isn't it? Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Electric Phono Motor on eBay - what is it?
Thank you, I knew one of the experts on this list would recognize the motor. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Home ander...@tampabay.rr.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Mar 15, 2012 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Electric Phono Motor on eBay - what is it? The phonograph motor was designed by Otis B Cole the patent was filed in 1916 nd patented May 21st 1918. Cole was affiliated with the Arion Mfg Co. They uilt the Arionola phonograph. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2012, at 4:57 PM, clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: There is an interesting early electric phonograph motor on eBay. I believe it might be from a lamp phonograph but which one? It is 380419455433 and seems to be going cheap. Any Ideas? Thanks, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Electric Phono Motor on eBay - what is it?
There is an interesting early electric phonograph motor on eBay. I believe it might be from a lamp phonograph but which one? It is 380419455433 and seems to be going cheap. Any Ideas? Thanks, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Home D.
Greetings Ron: I don't have my notes in front of me so this is coming out of my senile old memory stored in the few gray cells I have left. Edison went to the pin lift in the Model B later machines, the Model C, and the first of the Model D. Then the later D machines, the E, and the F went back to a lever lift. I would assume your D machines were both correct as shipped from West Orange; but, the serial number of the machine would be the telling point. Hope that helps, Al Who guarantees his information to be at least 50% correct... -Original Message- From: Ron L'Herault lhera...@bu.edu To: 'Antique Phonograph List' phono-l@oldcrank.org; phonolist phonol...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 7:20 am Subject: [Phono-L] Edison Home D. Listmates, My Edison Home D with standard carriage (front mount for C and H reproducers) has a lift lever. However, I have a Home D in for repair that has the push/pull button with manual lift of the front mount carriage. Are both styles correct or is one of these machines (I've owned mine since the late 1960s) a marriage of parts? The lift lever style has a somewhat rounded surface running against the bar in front. On the machine in for repair, it looks like someone may have filed this flat (the second time I've seen that). Or was it always flat? So what's going on here? Thanks, Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] eBay Shilling?? Edison Belts at ACE?
The seller is highly suspect in all of this. I sent him/her an email about the belt tension pulley and have not heard back. What I find most enlightening is that he/she states they went to ACE Hardware which has replacement belts for $7 (but didn't buy one) and leaves it to the buyer of this machine. How come my ACE Hardware doesn't carry Edison belts? Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Edison Standard A versus B Model
When George and I did the 1976 Edison cylinder phonograph book the printer missed some text. I don't think it appeared when George did the expanded Companion book. The Model A Standard used a pin crank engagement. The motor was held *up against* the bedplate with screws through rubber grommets to lessen vibration transmission. The speed control was up through the bedplate on top. The cabinet is shorter than the later B. All Model A Standards in the 'new style cabinet of 1901' have a banner transfer. The Model B Standard used a threaded engagement. The motor was *suspended on springs* from the bedplate. Since the motor was lower, the cabinet had to be increased in height for motor clearance from the cabinet floor. This brought about the 'tall Standard' Model B cabinet style. The speed control was made into a simple screw that did not extend about the bedplate. The Model B Standard only had the banner transfer for short time as the single word Edison replaced it in the summer of '06. The ICS Standard machines had the speed control knob on top of the bedplate all the way through the rest of the Standard line. They did this to allow for adjustment to the 90 RPM record speed. In 1975 I received what I thought was the galley copy of the book from George and immediately began editing. I called George a few days later with my erratum and he told me that was the final copy not a galley proof. As a result, there is one photograph of an Edison machine missing from that book and the idiot typesetter and page format person responsible for the Standard chapter never caught the mistake. The most common Edison cylinder machine made, the Standard Model B, appears nowhere in the book as a picture. And, now you know the rest of the story. Regards to all, Al PS: Variations from the above machine descriptions are likely kitchen table conglomerates, one of the confusing factors for Edison having so many interchangeable parts floating around through the last 110 years. eBay this last month had a Model B Home in a later D style cabinet, a Standard B in an A cabinet with the motor screwed down so it would fit, and a few other peculiar mutts, all listed as untouched originals. How sad we cannot contact the buyers any longer to send them a warning missive. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay...
I have a photocopy of the repair manual for the electric motors up to 1918. It indicates there were some 7 electric motors in the Business Phonograph from the bipolar open frame one to the date of the manual. I can only imagine what Edison had to say about the reproducers and recorders or the shavers. I guess in the future I will have to bid $1,000 for a $20 manual just to be sure I win it. I would love to make a CD of every Edison Form number I could lay my hands on. It would make research so much easier. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay... I think I have a bunch of those bulletins here but I will have to look for them. They are not in the best of shape but definitely readable and I think the pile is about 1/2 deep if I remember correctly. Some go back into the earlier machines. There is a possibility I may even have a disk of the scans of them. On 02/11/2012 10:43 PM, clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: 290665921104 This was the eBay number. Somebody got a treasure trove of Ediphone repair manuals. Al -Original Message- From: Richrich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph Listphono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay... What is the item number? On 02/11/2012 05:35 PM, clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: Did anyone on this list win the Edison Business Phonograph manuals that closed n eBay this week? If so, would you consider photocopying them for $100 plus copy fees? If anyone has originals for sale that too would be of interest to me. I can see how the information in these would be helpful in keeping the diphones working properly. Thanks for any help, email me off list if you wish, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay...
Did anyone on this list win the Edison Business Phonograph manuals that closed on eBay this week? If so, would you consider photocopying them for $100 plus copy fees? If anyone has originals for sale that too would be of interest to me. I can see how the information in these would be helpful in keeping the Ediphones working properly. Thanks for any help, email me off list if you wish, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay...
290665921104 This was the eBay number. Somebody got a treasure trove of Ediphone repair manuals. Al -Original Message- From: Rich rich-m...@octoxol.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, Feb 11, 2012 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Ediphone Repair Manuals on eBay... What is the item number? On 02/11/2012 05:35 PM, clockworkh...@aol.com wrote: Did anyone on this list win the Edison Business Phonograph manuals that closed n eBay this week? If so, would you consider photocopying them for $100 plus copy fees? If anyone has originals for sale that too would be of interest to me. I can see how the information in these would be helpful in keeping the diphones working properly. Thanks for any help, email me off list if you wish, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] ICS Standard C or D 90 RPM
Hi again Scott: Initially ICS did advertise their Standard As and Bs as Double Service for Every Phonograph, Amusement and Instruction. While the records continued to be black wax 2 minute records this made sense. A few turns of the governor speed knob and you could play both records. When the 4 minute Amberol records came out with added production expense and ICS was still using 2 minute home recording outfits to send customers feedback via home made recordings through the U.S. mail, there was no great reason to go to 4 minute capability. The 2 minute records were still being made for entertainment. Edison did ship Standard D Models with only 2 minute capability for the ICS market. These were sold to ICS at a nice discount and Edison did not want them to compete with the normal Edison line. By disabling the 4 minute function the machines were obsolete for prerecorded records but still worked just fine for 2 minute ICS cylinders. Remember that the 2 minute ICS record actually played for much longer since they were at 90 RPM rather than the 160 RPM of normal records. This made the voice recordings on ICS almost 4 minutes in length. The savings on machining the gears also saved Edison money in manufacturing. Gear cutting is one of the more costly machining steps in manufacture. They don't seem to have removed the gears but *never* installed them. The last few thousand of the Standard D were virtually all ICS machines with *only* the 2 minute gearing. So, the question really is why would Edison allow machines to be let out that would take away from their regular sales? When the ICS Gems came out they were designed to NOT be able to play anything but 2 minute records at 90 RPM. To answer your question on why the ICS company would be OK without the 4 minute prerecorded record capability, if they were getting the machines deeply discounted, why would they pay more for a feature they didn't need? The added expense of the extra Model H Reproducer and gears for 4 minutes wouldn't be justified. ICS only switched over to 4 minute records after the factory fire ended Standard production. They had even pleaded with Edison to provide a 2 minute Amberola 30 for their courses but Edison executives resisted having to make a separate special machine that would slow the production of normal Amberola 30 machines. It was September 1915, when Edison began making ICS Amberola 30s and they were 4 minute only. There is some indication today that the 4 minute Amberola ICS machines were not as successful as the earlier 2 minute (near 4 minute playing time 100 tpi at 90 RPM) Standards and Gems. The number of 4 minute recorders, 4 minute ICS cylinders, 4 minute ICS Amberola 30s, Special H Reproducers for Amberola, etc., are not great today. We should see more of them since they were sold into the late 1920s. Sorry to be so verbose! Best wishes, Al -Original Message- From: Scott Colgrove scott.colgr...@gmail.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 8:40 am Subject: Re: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C Al, Why would Edison have removed the 4-minute gearing from the Standard “D” just or ICS? Why wouldn’t ICS want 4-minute capability? I cannot imagine any usiness buying near-obsolete technology. __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C
I have a lot of data on Edison's that I didn't have when George and I did the first cylinder phonographs book. Now I have a ton of data showing things that happened affecting production nuances. The Edison Standards ended production with a serial just above 82. Virtually all of the last machines are ICS tagged and equipped D Models that have no 4 minute gears. On rare occasions a Model E Standard will be seen with the E X'd out and a C stamped in, again it is only a 2 minute player. These machines do appear in blocks of serials. I feel these were done at the Edison factory since the machines were sent out with only 2 minute capability so as not to compete with Edison's normal product line. Whenever I see an ICS late production machine labeled C or D that plays 4 minute records my suspicions are raised that someone has transplanted the gears. That is the problem with Edison machines having so many interchangeable parts going through so many hands for the last 100 years. I know of two California repair persons who 'brought them up to date' with dual speed gears, Pollard and Frick. This was in the 1950s and 1960s. The ICS machines usually were in pristine shape with very little usage and the donor machines were D or F junkers. I just thought of a third California dealer who did that too... The Edison Wrecking Yard, a.k.a. Neumann Miller. The Triumph Model G had both gear sets for 2 and 4 minute operation but had an easily removal shim washer that locked the planetary out into the 4 minute position. One must remember that the Model G Triumph production numbers are very likely less than 100 machines and the serials are intermixed with the Model F. Therefore, could a Model F have been mislabeled and sent out, with Edison that is a safe bet ! ! ! As production ended even the Triumph machines were not given the close scrutiny of earlier times. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 11:38 am Subject: Re: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C Nice machine Scott, what is the serial number? I would bet it is up above 9. Am I correct?” f course you are correct! Serial number: 820852 hat made you think it would be above 79? Have you seen or heard of other /4 minute D ICS Standards? THAT IS BECAUSE AL KNOWS HIS EDISON PHONOGRAPHS ETTER THAN I KNOW MY REPRODUCERS. teve, the machine only came with the H reproducer (sn #A679790), recording tube nd horn. No recorder or “C” reproducer. egards, cott SCOTT, THANKS, HE H REPRODUCER WAS FROM AFTER JULY 1909 AS THE FIRST K WAS AROUND A582,000. T APPEARS EDISON ASSIGNED SERIAL NUMBER BLOCKS TO THE SMALL TOP REPRODUCERS AS OME D MACHINES HAVE A SPREAD ON THE C AND H REPRODUCERS. I APPRECIATE KNOWING HE MACHINE PLAYS IN 4 MINUTE, IT APPEARS IT WAS USED FOR ENTERTAINMENT YLINDERS. EDISON HAS SO MUCH VARIETY, ONE OF THE TRIUMPH MODEL G'S THAT WAS UPPOSED TO BE 4 MINUTE ONLY PLAYS IN BOTH. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU LEARN ABOUT DISON THERE IS ALWAYS MORE. STEVE M __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C
Nice machine Scott, what is the serial number? I would bet it is up above 79. Am I correct? That is a clean original horn also. That was a great machine to start your collection. Regards, Al -Original Message- From: Scott Colgrove scott.colgr...@gmail.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:47 am Subject: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C Hi Steve and Al, I’ve seen an ICS Standard D...it’s in my hallway! http://www.montanaphonograph.com/gallery/EdStdD.html This was the beast that caused my phono-collecting disease. It was the first ylinder player I ever saw and the first purchased. Regards, cott __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C
Hi Steve: Yes, toward the very end of the Standard machines Edison made ICS Model Ds that were missing the 4 minute gears and had the speed control knob on top the bedplate. Some had the D X'd out with a C stamped in but most were just left with the D letter in the Model box on the patent plate. Price ranges on eBay for ICS Cs have been from $250 to $550 over the last few years. One or two machines did sell in the $700 to $800 range in earlier golden years with hearing tubes, some ICS records, and recorders with blanks. Hope that helps, Al Edison fanatic... -Original Message- From: Steven Medved steve_nor...@msn.com To: phonolist phonol...@yahoogroups.com; phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 1:32 pm Subject: [Phono-L] What is the price range for the ICS Standard C http://www.ebay.com/itm/200702897452 Has anyone seen an ICS standard D? Steve ___ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Amberola B-VIII
Greetings Scott: The last 1000 bedplates were the long cast ones so no top grille would be needed. It is the long casting that makes a B-VIII... a B-VIII ! ! ! The Fireside motor was not changed, nor the cabinet, or horn. If you find a B-VIII with the removable top grille then it is someone's kitchen table conglomerate or a factory mistake which is not unknown. Hope that helps, Al -Original Message- From: Scott Colgrove scott.colgr...@gmail.com To: phono-l phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sun, Jan 8, 2012 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Amberola B-VIII Al – do you know how many of the solid bedplate vs. the removable grill B-VIIIs ere made? Were the solid type made later? Thanks, cott __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Amberola B-VIII
Greetings Steve: Only about 1000 B-VIII machines were sold. They did continue the serial numbers of the VIII. I surmise that they were introduced in October of 1914 and of course the factory fire in December 1914 stopped production of that model. Serials typical of the B-VIII range from 8800 into the high 9000s. Since they were built well the survival rate is likely 15% or better. There have been 10 on eBay in the last few years. Hope that helps... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Edison Gem 2 4 conversion question
Greetings Everyone: I have had a somewhat negative interaction with eBay seller eschalpin who is selling a Gem 2 - 4 minute conversion gearing. He claims the unit is complete. I asked how you change the gearing speeds and he told me not to send him anymore emails. I believe the 'complete' unit is missing the knob and dual size intermediate gear that does the shifting. Since eschalpin of the District of Columbia won't answer the question I thought I would query this learned group. How does one get two gear speeds on eBay item 250883944435 Thanks, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] phonograph belt making - Dressing Too
Greetings everyone: I work on pipe organs and get the best leather there is () from a pipe organ specialty company *but* Tandy or a local leather supply would also have good leather. The leather made for purse straps that has a low stretch factor should be fine. Ask the leather expert at the store for recommendations. Saddle makers have good leather decorative strips also. Any brown leather that resists stretching will work. Sadly modern leathers are not being tanned the old ways to last a long time and remain flexible; but, they can be dressed to overcome tanning shortcuts. (see last paragraph) The really big element in making your own belt is the SKIVING of the leather ends so the butt joint is not a lump to cause a speed bump on the record being played. A good lap joint should be hard to spot. BARGE Cement was made for leather shoes, boots, etc., and is very flexible. Just don't breath it... When rebuilding a pipe organ we often have to put two pieces of leather together where they will flex. The Barge Cement is rubber based and can flex millions of times without letting go. After the belt is made and the stitching done, I would recommend a good belt dressing. In the old days a compound of pine tar, beeswax, and a smidgeon of linseed oil was used. The antique can I have is from 1910 (I believe) and is labeled Johnson's Can't Slip. When a belt is thoroughly infused with this stuff it should outlast the machine's owner ! ! ! Hope that helps... Al Who thought belt dressing was an extra fattening form of ranch dressing... ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
[Phono-L] Triumph Home feedscrews - you live and you learn
I would like to publically thank Mike Tucker for enlightening me. I have only had to work with the feedscrews on my very early machines and never looked closely at the later feedscrews. Mike suggested I get a USB microscope for my computer. It arrived last week and I began to look over later feedscrews. They certainly are 60º feedscrews. Now the question is when did Edison change over? The 1892 Class M project machine of mine had buttress and examining an 1896 Spring Motor it was the same. Looking at a Triumph B, C, D, E, F, G the feedscrew is 60º threads. That will teach me never to take the later machines so lightly ! ! ! This just goes to prove what I have always said, You are always learning something new about Edison machines. The fun never stops. A big thank you to Mike. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] phonograph belt making
Neoprene, which is the generic brand name for chloroprene, has a life of 15 years according to NASA specs. But, those specs are for non-flexing O rings under compression and not exposed to air. I suspect a neoprene belt would do a great job and not have the problem a leather belt with a bad bulging joint to cause record 'wow' would have. That being said, I have leather belts of 100+ years still going strong with original stitching. For a machine just to play a record well the neoprene is likely a good choice. For originality, a leather belt with stitching is my choice. You can skive the ends of the leather belt. Join them with Barge Cement. Then use one of those toy sewing machines they sell As Seen On TV, with a home made guide fence, to put on the twin parallel stitches. A light touch of Barge Cement at the thread ends will keep them from unraveling while playing. The belt can be dressed with leather protectant and will last indefinitely. That's my 2 cents worth... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Triumph Home feedscrews - you live and you learn
Rich, give me a few days since virtually all of my machines are in storage. I will attempt to look at those two machines to see what I find. Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] auctioning phonos
Please post the Edison Models. There is a big difference between an Amberola 30 and an Eclipse. Specialist collectors will often buy a complete collection to get one item them trade off the machines they are not interested in. Thanks, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Triumph halfnuts...
I just got off the phone with Dwayne of Wyatt's Musical Americana. He is out of the Triumph halfnuts. His source was the late Elmer Jones, a first rate machinist and all around great guy. Elmer made the halfnuts with the 45º buttress threads. I am going to make a few other calls to known mechanical genius phonograph people here in sunny California. The halfnut I need for my early M Class project machine is the single wide one and not the two narrow ones for the split bar. Wish me luck as I don't look forward to tooling up to make one. Mike Tucker has been doing miraculous things down under. I wonder if we could get enough orders together to have him make the BT halfnuts? Dwayne told me he needs them. Anyone else? Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Great Rust Removal Method - Electrolytic Rust Removal...
This is well known to car restorers and has been used on iron or steel for years. Sodium hydroxide will also work. Sodium hydroxide is Drano but without the aluminum flakes that would mess up the process. Sodium hydroxide is commonly called lye and eye protection is advised. It works a bit better than 'washing soda' or soda ash which is sodium carbonate, Na2CO3. For a gas tank an electroplated coating of zinc is suggested immediately after the process. For a phonograph body any pits should quickly be filled and a coat of paint put on if it is an exposed part. Motor frames and the like can be dipped into an oil bath that has a paraffin base or given a dip into shellac or lacquer to keep the rust off. If the part is to be plated then the next immediate step is to copper plate the part before any oil or oxide can contaminate the pristine surface. Even a fingerprint is a problem. Cast iron needs a copper plating then tin plating before nickel can be put on. Electrolytic rust removal has been used by museums and restorers for ages. Bill Harrah had a huge bath when he was restoring old rust buckets into great antique cars for his collection. Harrah had an Edison Opera, a Triumph, an Amberola 30, and other Edison machines on display but never felt they needed restoration. Boy, did they! Happy Bastille Day to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] DD Speed Record for Dealers - was shrinking cylinder speed?
We must also note that Edison provided the dealers with a DD record of a single pitch and a pitch pipe or tuning fork. The fork or pitch pipe were made to sound then the record was played at the same time. When the sound quit beating and both pitches were identical the speed was 80 rpm. That was another neat idea before strobe discs and steady 60 Hz came along many years later on LP turntables. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Nickel Plating Sequence...
You can plate nickel over brass directly since brass is a mixture of copper and tin. Does that help? Al Hmmm, Thought you could plate nickel right over copper. Drat. Ron L ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Frozen mandrel bearing - dezincification?
The pot metal we see is today called a die cast zinc part. In Edison's day a zinc alloy was used for the 'pot metal' but there was no set formula or even the knowledge of how a small amount of lead or sulfur could cause later swelling. The process is called 'intergranular crystal growth' or one of several other similar labels. As a tiny crack opens in the zinc casting oxygen gets in and starts to create compounds that further swell the casting and accelerate the process. From seeing the zinc oxide some sources termed the swelling and brittle break up of the metal 'dezincification.' IF the mandrel bearing is swollen the center hole around the steel shaft cannot have tightened down by much. The steel shaft is not very compressible. Very often when the shaft is freed and good oil is put on the bearing it is good to go again. The real danger is that the outward pressure of the bearing might break the cast iron bearing retainer of the topworks. I once restored a frozen solid Kodak 16mm projector that was without any pot metal bearings. Someone had used 3 in 1 on it and all the bearings were glued solid. After letting some solvent soak into the bearings it took off running just fine. Penetrating oil is always a good first step in freeing a shaft since it will do no damage to the shaft or the mandrel. If it does not work overnight then more drastic methods may be employed. Best wishes to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Mandrel bearing removal - a few more suggestions...
I sure hope that Lee Kirk is still with us. I have one of his mandrel bearing tools and it works great. I have also made a small 'fly cutter' with centering jig that does the same thing. Lee was making new Orthophonic diaphragms as I recall. He is is a kind person and a true friend to fellow collectors who know him. Now I have to find out if he is alright. Lee also made a mandrel removal tool that was much more gentle than whacking off the mandrel with a mallet. Anyone with machine tool skills can make one. It is just like an automotive wheel puller with two arms to grip the cylinder mandrel from behind and a screw with centering point for the mandrel shaft indentation. Some heat on the mandrel at the friction points holding the mandrel and a bit of Kroil will make mandrel removal quick, simple, and safe. One secret is to put on the Kroil, let it sit, then to gently tap a wooden block with a hole in the middle on the open end of the mandrel and drive it a fraction more ONTO the mandrel shaft which has been cleaned of oxide from between the mandrel and the bearing. This loosens the mandrel without the thin outer end deforming as the wood presses equally across the end surface. Then when the mandrel is free to slide the puller is put on and gently takes the mandrel off of the shaft after the exposed end has been clean of ox ide with crosus cloth. Liberal use of Kroil is advised and some may even be put into the mandrel through the holes (spray Kroil is good here). I once watched Tom Pollard remove a mandrel with a mallet and the sight of the mandrel flying off, bounding around the room, and landing at my feet was not a pleasant one. The indented outer end was not a pretty sight and the repair of an indented end is not fun. He did not repair the end. Now it is not always necessary to remove the mandrel bearing to affect a repair. Very often the bearing can be made serviceable again by attaching a speed control power drill to the mandrel shaft, applying some heat and penetrating oil, and slowly unsticking the bearing. In many cases the bearing is just fine. If a previous owner has used 3-in-1 oil on the bearing, the oil has turned to superglue. I always start by applying Kroil every hour or so then letting the bearing sit overnight. The next day the bearing is many times free with no other work needed and your machine remains all original. Finding a swollen bearing where the lubrication has solidified is not uncommon. Hope my comments help. May all your finds be rare ones, Al You are lucky to have one of those. I think they were made by Lee Kirk who assed away last year I think. ave ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft...
In a message dated 7/4/2011 8:56:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rich-m...@octoxol.com writes: Something tells me you will find both depending on vintage. That would not surprise me. I have learned *never* to say Edison never did that. Unfortunately the optical comparator I use belongs to the local community college which is in recess for the summer. The comparator shows a magnified shadow of the threads on a large screen. My ancient eyes cannot tell the difference in threads without such an optical aide. Happy phono hunting to all, Al Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Recreating Edison's Inventions... very educational... was Dearborn...
From tinfoil phonographs to light bulbs, Edison made things that were practical and worked. If one does not realize the difficulty of Edison's inventions then one has not attempted to duplicate them. Has anyone ever played with a reproduction Bell telephone? Mine required shouting so loud that the person in the next room could hear me better through the wall than through the Bell telephone. It was Edison's carbon microphone that made it practical. As a retired Physicist and Physics teacher, I remember fondly of trying to make a tinfoil phonograph using the plans from the Edison Institute Ford Museum. Just the machine tool technology is impressive for today. Has anyone else on this list made a mandrel shaft and feedscrew for a Home, Triumph, or M class? I spent weeks last year doing just that. The 100 thread per inch buttress thread of the feedscrew is not easy to do. The tapered brass mandrel is an odd taper and I had a number of failures before I got one that was perfect. Only a few thousandths of an inch of slop in your taper attac hment and you are in trouble. My reproduction of the original tinfoil machine has never been completed because I became frustrated with my recording and playback styli. Just this week I am seeking the counsel of the most knowledgeable tinfoil expert in the world. When it comes to electric lighting, I have a San Francisco Market Street arc lamp in my collection. It draws 20 Amps at 80 Volts when struck, that's 1,600 Watts, and the carbon rods quickly burn out. Many years ago when teaching electrical circuits I had a setup to place a filament (a term coined by Edison as I recall) inside a bell jar that could be evacuated. Trust me, getting anything to last at incandescent temperatures is not easy, even today with all the knowledge we have. My students then had never given thought to the simple and ubiquitous light bulb. Usually they were enthralled by the warm glow coming from the bell jar. Many phonographic items were invented by Edison but he never got credit for them. Remember when the 'elliptical stylus' was introduced to play stereo LPs and was hailed as a great leap forward? What do you think the contact area of a 1902 Model C sapphire stylus is? Remember the switch from sapphire to diamond styli in the 1960s as playback equipment improved? That too was hailed. Linear tracking? Microgrooves? All the best Independence Day wishes to everyone, Al The price of Freedom is always paid in blood. Thank a veteran today. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison feedscrew on mandrel shaft... Triumph, M, Home...
G'day Mike: Very interesting but the M feedscrew I had to duplicate was examined under an optical comparator and there was no doubt the thread of the original 1892 part was a 45º buttress thread. The depth of the thread is only 0.007 so the lathe setup is crucial. I will have to check the later threads but the one I did had a buttress thread and the halfnut was likewise set. It would make sense to have a buttress thread at 100 threads per inch with the 'strong' direction pushing the halfnut and carriage to the right. At 100 tpi the thread height for any thread should be uncomfortably small. On yours was the thread a 'normal' V thread that was not directional? What was the depth of thread? It is good to see you on the list. I hope all is well with you. My wife and I have a planned vacation down under. Off list tell me what sights the locals would recommend? Regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Dearborn trip--Edison's last breath
For those of us who went to the museum before it was dumbed down, the place was magical. The last time I was there they had an M electric out in the open with no glass around it and sitting in a dark corner. Parts had been picked off of it. I desperately need a brush door plate for an M and could have just lifted the one on this machine right out, pocketed it, and walked out. They didn't seen to care when I brought the question of protecting the machine up to one of the key people there. It was very sad to see them take out important artifacts of the American Industrial Revolution from the main building to put in a snack bar and kiddy play area. Just the history of American steam engines alone was worth the visit and it is now all but gone. Needless-to-say, I have never stolen a phonograph part for my Edison collection and am still looking for a brush inspection door plate for my M electric, a never-ending project machine. I will bite the bullet and make a reproduction out of a cut up Edison Standard B bedplate later this summer if all goes well. BTW - Are they still demonstrating the Bergmann tinfoil reproduction machine? I made a tinfoil recording but the old biddy operating the machine would not give me the tinfoil. I even offered to pay for it as I don't own a single tinfoil recording. Regards to everyone, may all your finds be rare ones, Al PS: The last time I saw Edison's Last Breath they had it sitting in a dimly lit cheesy glass cabinet and it was poorly labeled. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] E. M. Ginn Reproducer value? Thank you George...
Thanks George, I knew this list would have an expert on the E.M.Ginn Expert and I am glad it was you. I bid on the sound head but was hoping to get it only to study it and learn from it. I theorize that the diaphragm has a great range of compliance and acts almost like a piston pumping action. I heard an E.M.G. play a record about two years ago and was very impressed at the quality and volume produced by the phonograph. The gigantic horn was aimed at a plaster wall, not viewed directly on, and the sound seemed to just appear across the whole wall. It was very impressive. It almost made me give up my manic addiction to Edison machines. Kindest regards, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] E. M. Ginn Reproducer value?
Does anyone have an idea of what an E. M. Ginn Expert reproducer is worth? There is one on eBay, 110705835694. I have seen these on machines but never one by itself. Thanks for all replies, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] New Clarence Ferguson book edition available?
My copy arrived yesterday. It is a very nice presentation. Thank you John ! ! ! Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Eclipse Value... A guess...
How much would a nice working Eclipse sell in this market? Hello Al, I am probably NOT the person to address this. My 2 cents worth follows: There is no doubt this phonograph market is way down. The most I have seen an Eclipse go for was $32,000. Even the conglomeration machines made with a converted Triumph B topworks, an Econowatt motor, a reproduction coin trip mechanism, and the only part that was original being the cabinet, found $20,000 bids in eBay several years ago. Now I would suspect that a completely original Eclipse with everything correct might fetch $20,000 today; but, that is just a wild guess. If I absolutely had to have one, I would probably go that high or more for a correct example. Conversely, I would only pay $2,000 for a conglomeration of parts. The last eBay Eclipse conglomeration did not get above $8,000 and didn't sell since the reserve was not met. Perhaps all the knowledgeable serious collectors who wanted an Eclipse have one ! ! ! It only takes two bidders with deep pockets and a bad case of Obsessive Compulsion Disorder to run the price up on eBay. I would be very interested in others opinions on this; so, please chime in and tell me how far off I am. Best wishes to everyone, Al A victim of Edison OCD... ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Why did this go so high- not an Alva
Hi Bill, The coin trip hole in front of the straightedge is the big clue that it was an Eclipse. The Alva had a curved down edge bedplate (shared with the Idelia) and 3 electric posts not 2 of the Eclipse. The Alva's 3 posts were for AC, DC, and Common. The Alva had the Aluminum 'box' Edison Business motor. Putting this machine in a Triumph cabinet might not be possible since the motor height of the bipolar motor is greater than the space, if my memory serves me. The curved down bedplate of the Alva was to give the motor just enough room by raising the works. Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Why did this go so high - Eclipse works
What worries me is that the buyer has a low rating and may not know what he or she has won. I contacted the seller and told the seller what the item was after the sale was over. I did tell him he could have doubled his final bid if he had not called the item an Edison Record Player! He has not gotten back to me. I missed the active bidding because I never search 'record player' which to me is a Decca Stereo from the 50s with the swing out speakers. The governor balls could not be seen in the photo of the motor and may be missing but that is easy to make new ones or even a new complete governor. When the early Edison Business Phonographs come up on eBay with the open frame bipolar motor these go high also. The motor alone is very collectable. Business Phonograph sales were low when these motors were used so they are rare. The next Aluminum cased motor replaced the bipolar early on, though it too is scarce. The Aluminum box cased motor was used for the Alva but had to offset the governor to make room for the DC ballast resistor. So, even a junker Business machine with the right motor will go high if the bidders are knowledgeable. The Edison Business Phonographs started out as the lowly stepchild in the phonograph lines. Motors are the bipolar, Aluminum box, 2 spring Triton (same as Triumph F G), single spring Triton frame, modified Amberola 50/75 2 spring, round cased Aluminum, die cast zinc, and so on... (I think I may have missed at least 2 more variations but at my age I'm lucky to remember anything.) Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Why did this go so high
This is the works from an Edison Eclipse coin op. The motor is the *correct*bipolar motor and not one of the Econowatt Business Phonograph swap ins that are the norm. All you need to do with this one is drop it into the correct cabinet with coin drop box and trip. The extra hole in front of the straight edge is for the coin trip rod. For a purist, this original unmodified Eclipse mechanism is better than solid Platinum. I actually think it went rather low since the listing did not call it a phonograph or state what it really was. An Edison Record Player is hardly enough to describe how really rare that machine was. If I had a spare Eclipse cabinet missing the phonograph mechanism I would have bid upward of $15,000. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Gem D or E
The Model D Gems are not uncommon but one in perfect shape is scarce at best. The 2 and 4 minute Gem D is a good machine but the K Reproducer has issues of its own and must be in great shape for best sound reproduction. The very rare Gem Model E has the larger diaphragm N Reproducer which plays 4 minute Amberol Records very nicely. There are Gem Ds on eBay with great regularity. They vary in price from $650 to $2,000+ (all original cleaned up and looking brand new) depending on who is bidding and the presentation of the machine in the photos. The horn condition is always a problem since the clear lacquer red tint is easily worn off, chipped off, and scratched off. The maroon paint on the machine is not that durable either. It is my estimate that less than 300 Gem Model E machines were made. Probably less than 50 have survived and having collected for nearly 50 years I have only known of 4 examples. The Gem E on eBay now is the fourth machine and from the opening bid price the seller knows of the rarity. The serials numbers were intermixed with the late Gem D so the only accurate source of the information would the archives at the Edison National Historic Site which are closed to all but a few. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Could be a great value... was $6100.01 Edison Standard Phonograph
You can always get money, the Federal Government is printing 4 billion new dollars a day. So, if you see a phonograph that grabs you, BUY IT. To complete my collection I have paid way too much on a couple of machines and have never been offered them again. Firebottles great photography of cleaned up machines appeals to collectors like myself who see what they want and are willing to put out the cash. Lord help me when he finds something I don't already have in my collection... that would be a treadle or water powered Edison... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Phonographic Enlightenment...
Jim, thank you for the compliment. My Masters Thesis on the Edison Models was finished when George Frow came out with the first 'guide.' I contacted George about putting the two together and the rest is ancient history. BUT, you did read my mind. My original intent was to arm collectors with as much correct information as possible so they wouldn't be taken. There were so many frankenphonos and no one could convince the sellers they were conglomerations of parts. Once the book was published it became easier for buyers to show the sellers what was original on Edison cylinder machines. In those times we had items being sold by phonograph repair and parts dealers such as borosilicate glass styli for Edisons, better than the original. One wonders how many records were destroyed by them. The diameter was just plain wrong and they would pit or scratch then leave trails in the wax grooves forevermore. There was one crook, Jesse Jones was his name if memory serves. He would borrow parts to 'reproduce' them and the original owner could never locate him again. One poor soul lent him a complete Bettini outfit. Today we can reach many collectors at once with a cautionary tale. The neophytes are the ones I worry about on eBay. Once upon a time you could send them a warning note but with eBay cutting off that communication channel there is no enlightenment for them. The REPORT THIS ITEM action button seems not to be connected to anything. Kindest wishes to all, Al Who thought you could get enlightened by flipping the switch on the wall... ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Stylus contact area...
Steve, you are correct. For those on the list who have not followed past posts by Steve or myself: The contact area of the 'ball stylus' on the record groove surface is greater than the 'doorknob' shape of the C stylus. The weight spread over a larger area of the wax by the ball is more gentle. The more hard surface of the black wax records allowed for greater pressure on a smaller area. Think of it as a Physics problem. If 1 gram of weight is spread over 1 square meter that is not much pressure over the area. A single square millimeter would have one millionth of a gram per square millimeter. A gram over one square millimeter is still not much but if you put 1 gram per square millimeter over a full square meter then you would have 1 million grams. If the contact surface of the ball is reduced to half on the 'doorknob' the effective pressure is thus doubled on the groove. If the contact area is one forth then the effective pressure is quadrupled. Edison had invented the elliptical stylus as a way of saving steps in forming the jewel. The contact area of the groove from side to side stays the same but the fore and aft contact area is greatly reduced. The diameter of the sapphire rod available from supply houses for watch makers bearings were ground precisely so all that needed to be done was to create a clearance bevel and polish the end. The ball and hemispherical stylus were actually more work intensive in order to be accurate which is counterintuitive. Strangely the 4 minute stylus of the H has greater contact area than the diamond reproducers since the elliptical long direction of the H sapphire is in line with the groove direction while the diamond stylus is a point of lesser radius. For those reasons a brown wax is not to be played by a C reproducer stylus and a 4 minute Amberol wax is not to be played by a diamond (heavier weight too) reproducer. I hope this makes sense and this has not been my usual 'clear as mud' explaination. Regards to all, Al PS: Apologies in advance if this missive comes in a odd format, I am on a strange computer which is giving me weird results. ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Seller's Name was/ Frankenreproducer alert
Greetings Dave: I actually don't know the Pittsburgh Phonograph Pirate's name. Whenever I have tried gently to enlighten him he responds with nasty responses telling me I don't know what I am talking about. Luckily he has never had anything I need for my collection. When I started collecting in the early 1960's there were more crooks around. Today we are far more educated thanks to MAPS, CAPS, Phono-L, etc., and that makes it much more difficult to con us. Regards to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Edison Class M wow and flutter...
A short answer to a recent list comment: Many Class M restorations miss a few points. The governors should have a shunt resistance across it so the current modulation by the governor brush is reduced. And that is just the starting point to getting things adjusted correctly. Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Opera on ebay
I noted with a chuckle that the seller states the triple spring motor is strong. Should anyone tell him the Opera was only a 2 spring machine? IMHO - As for the Opera being a low number, it really doesn't matter with the later Edison machines. They had few variations and a decent survival rate. The biggest change I can think of is the renaming of the machine to Concert. It is not the same as having a low number Spring Motor, Home, Standard, or Gem when production numbers were low and Edison was experimenting with designs of all the mechanical components. Best wishes to all, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
[Phono-L] Frick's Freak Alert...
Warning, a Frick's Freak Edison Model C Reproducer is on eBay now. Karl Frick would 'modify' your original reproducer to play both 2 and 4 minute cylinders with a 'dual speed stylus'. He would remove your original 2 minute or 4 minute stylus out of your C or H reproducer and replace it with an Ediphone stylus which is between the two stylus radius diameters. The tailweight was then stamped with a 2 and a 4 to show it would play both. As a novice collector I had this done. Karl kept the original stylus which he then sold again. The wax records played with the Ediphone stylus suffers damage. If you are bidding to have it as an oddity in the collecting world that is fine, just don't play any wax records with it. Celluloid records handle it well but the larger diameter stylus exhibits increases surface noise on the 4 minute celluloid since it rides the sides of the groove and not the bottom. It actually caused a run between grooves on a test Blue Amberol record that I re peatedly played with it as a test. See eBay # 160473105672 Best wishes to all... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Spring Motor questions..Triton Motors...pt. 2
Hello again Gabriel: Your serial number puts the machine just a few hundred below the introduction of the Triumph. The motor number is correct for that machine. All good news since the Speed Control Knob was standardized by this time so there should be no problem locating the correct part. I suspect the person who sold you the speed control may have thought it was for a Triumph/Springmotor but it likely is for a Home A or Standard A, possibly even for an ICS machine made much later. At the moment all of my machines are in storage so I cannot take a thread gauge and micrometer to determine what the correct screw size is for a Springmotor. I do remember that the 'suitcase Home' speed knob is a 10-32 thread. It is optimally 0.190 in diameter. If you have a micrometer you can check the diameter of the shaft that is too narrow. I will keep digging. Meanwhile, give Dwayne a call at Wyatt's, I would bet he has an early Triumph Speed Control Knob of correct thread. Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Spring Motor questions... Triton Motors...
Greetings Gabriel: It is difficult to address your problems without examining the phonograph. What is the serial number of the Triton springmotor? What is the serial number of the machine? There were different threads used early on. When the speed control knob gained the pointer and the speed calibrations printed on the bedplate in 1903 the threads remained unchanged until the end of production. Does your motor have the correct square crank shaft and the round 3 ball governor? I ask to help determine if all the parts are original and the motor is not a conglomeration. What is the serial number of the Triumph from which you borrowed the control knob to test if it would work? Very likely it was a Model B or later machine. The Home and Standard Model A speed control knob was not meant for any Triton motor that I am aware of. One would have to compare them to be sure. There is a speed control knob on eBay now and Wyatt's carries them. For just over $20 you could try one. Wyatt's should have the correct knob and Dwayne, the owner, should know what you need as he is most knowledgeable. From the beginning the Triton motor was hung on springs with washers and screws into the bedplate. There was no belt tension idler pulley. The whole motor is raised or lowered by a thumbscrew to obtain correct belt tension. Edison part numbers were #2752 for the springs, #2753 for the spring washers, #2754 for the screws, and #2755 for the screw washers. You can order these plus the belt tightening screw #2816, washer #2817, nut #2818, and spring from Wyatt's Musical Americana. To my knowledge the Triton motor frame should not be mounted solid with screws to the bedplate under any circumstance. Now if you have the earliest single spring motor it will be mounted solid to the bedplate with rubber pads as spacers. Likewise Amet and Peerless motors... Best wishes, Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Brass Mandrels... some idle thoughts...
Greetings Harvey: The solid brass mandrels were on the early M and E electric machines. They were press fit onto the steel mandrel shaft. Even in those days solid brass of that diameter was expensive so few are found to be solid after 1896. As the M topworks was adapted for the Springmotor machines the brass mandrel became a hollow cylinder with brass ends pressed in. It was a thick wall brass which still carried some weight. The smaller diameter end was indented to allow for the needle bearing guard on the endgate. In 1901 the nickel plated thin walled drawn brass mandrel allowed for a drastic reduction in brass costs and reduced the number of machining operations. The indented end continued for the M and E but the new Triumph line did not require it. For the rest of the Triumph production the drawn brass mandrel continued to serve well. The Home phonograph had the thick walled hollow brass mandrel with end pieces almost from the earliest machines. Only the very lowest serial numbers are occasionally found with a solid mandrel and the indented end. The Home had that thick walled brass mandrel for a long time but wall thickness was reduced as nickel plating was added. The drawn thin brass mandrel was introduced before the 1901 new style cabinet change. The length of the mandrel shaft remained the same until the Model B was introduced. SADLY, there are sellers who swap out the brass mandrel for a later thin walled nickeled mandrel. They then charge more for the brass mandrel than they paid for the whole phonograph. So, you can find a Home with a serial number below 9000 with a shiny nickeled mandrel that should not be there. And further along there will be an eBay listing for the original brass mandrel for a higher price than the mutt machine. Gr ! ! ! I hope that helps. I am away from my research materials so I only guarantee the above to be 50% correct... Al ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
Re: [Phono-L] Edison Brass Mandrel
Are you asking about the solid brass mandrel, the hollow unplated brass mandrel, the plated thick wall brass mandrel, or the thin drawn brass nickel plated mandrel? Regards to all, Al -Original Message- From: harvey kravitz harveykrav...@yahoo.com To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Sat, May 15, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: [Phono-L] Edison Brass Mandrel Does anyone know when Edison stopped using brass mandrels for their Homes and ther machines? I always wondered about that. Ant information will be greatly ppreciated. hanks, arvey Kravitz __ hono-L mailing list ttp://phono-l.oldcrank.org ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
