date:20130508

There are differences, for sure, but Peter Weigle told me that he likes the VO
fenders, which he uses on his wonderful reimagined Raleigh Competition
randonneurs. That's a pretty solid recommendation.

On May 8, 2013, at 3:07 AM, Ojiisan a...@mynvw.commailto:a...@mynvw.com
wrote:

This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need some
fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 700x32c tires.
I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at either VO fenders or
Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather
pay for quality to avoid disappointment but is there really that much of a
difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might
consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan

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[RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread David Spranger

Never had Honjo but I have used VO fenders on many bikes. The quality has 
never let me down. They are easily as good (better in many aspects) as the 
Berthoud fenders I have on one bike.

David
Charlotte, NC

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:43:38 PM UTC-4, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 
 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at 
 either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the 
 price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but 
 is there really that much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is 
 there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan

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[RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread RJM

I think I posted into the comments when that article originally came out. I 
have to go through it though. 
 
I believe she went and bought herself a seven axiom and has since sold the 
Hillborne. I remember her saying that she never really did carry much in 
the way of gear on the bike and never took it camping or touring really and 
there were better bikes for the riding she liked and planned to do. Those 
being paceline riding and brevets. I agree that with the hillborne she was 
on the wrong bike for that kind of stuff. 
 
I have never had a handling issue with my Hillborne and only bought another 
riv(Roadeo) because I wanted a quick bike that would be setup for club 
riding. I personally fall on the Riv side of things and a lot of it has to 
do with the bike's versatality and handling. 
 

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:00:05 PM UTC-5, samh wrote:

 I was fascinated by the discussion here:


 http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/02/choosing-your-gospel-rivendell-vs.html



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[RBW] Re: Cloth Tape over Cork Grips?

2013-05-08 Thread Ron Mc

looks grippy - good job

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 5:13:18 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Oops. Here 'tis...
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/8717798307/in/photostream

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:16:34 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Here's the post shellac photo. Darkened up beautifully (included in the 
 shot is the naked remnant for comparison. Looking forward to riding it 
 after it dries.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 7:27:24 AM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 My cork grips are starting to chip (apparently enjoying their age and/or 
 being tossed around too much). I love their girth and shape, so before they 
 fall apart I am planning on cloth tape/shellacing them. 

 I plan on starting with them and wrapping up so I have a solid finished 
 edge on them. Should I add twine, which I will use on the top just under 
 the shifters, located at the top of the bend of the bars?

 Any advice? 

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread Ron Mc

Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are 
slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.  

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 
 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at 
 either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the 
 price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but 
 is there really that much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is 
 there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Tue, 2013-05-07 at 20:09 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
 Undersized tubing? Maybe it's not obvious to everybody, but a lot of
 plus-sized people are drawn to Riv by the promise of high-bar comfort
 and sturdiness. Put some chugging 270-pounder on a bike with
 undersized tubes, and it's likely to get a bit too exciting to be
 enjoyable.

I really don't like your use of the term undersized.  Riv tubes are
OVERsize.  That's what it was called when it was introduced, and that's
still what it's known as.  The stuff that's even larger diameter is
known as over-over-size.   You can have high-bar comfort without
excessive stiffness; the two are not inextricably linked.  

Furthermore, there's a lot of difference between a 190-220 lb plus
size rider and the 270 pounder you write about.  I haven't seen too
many 270 pounders, but plenty of those in the 0.1 ton category
(including myself), and we do not necessarily need the excessive
stiffness Rivs now provide.  In fact, that excessive stiffness takes
away a good deal of enjoyment in my opinion, especially by making the
bikes reluctant climbers.

 I come down on the Riv side. I shy away from the faintest whiff of
 daintiness and anything that seems French. I draw a lot more parallels
 between RBW and Surly than I do between RBW and the integrated rando
 bike concept.
 

And you know what people say about the Surly LHT: rides like a tank, way
overbuilt for unloaded riding.   I've never ridden a Surly LHT, but I
have owned two Rivendells.  While I think they were excessively stiff,
they definitely didn't ride like tanks.

While many randonneurs have turned Rivs into rando bikes, Rivendells are
perhaps the exact opposite of integrated.  Doug Brooks called it
resourceful vs resolved.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa - the first of a whole new horse breed?

2013-05-08 Thread Peter Pesce

Hey Jeremy-

Do you have a pic of the Bosco bars on your QB? I moved my Albas to my Sam, 
and put Noodles on the QB, but now I want to go back to upright on the QB, 
and I'm not sure if I should get another set of Albas or try the Bosco.

Thanks!

Pete in CT

On Sunday, May 5, 2013 11:47:12 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Till wrote:

 Keven and I talked about this when I rode the Appaloosa and subsequently 
 bought some Bosco Bullmooses for my Quickbeam.  Keven reports feeling like 
 he actually has more power on his proto-appaloosa with the upright position 
 versus his earlier drop bar bikes.  After putting the Boscos on my 
 Quickbeam (coming from a relatively racy flat bar setup before, which kept 
 my back much more inclined), I can report that I feel absolutely no loss of 
 power going to full-upright, including on long, low-rpm, singlespeed 
 climbs, which you know all about, Patrick.  And in general, I feel less 
 worn out after riding the QB with the upright position versus similar rides 
 on the previous flat bars.  

 I'm also amazed at how much better the view is from up there.  I find 
 myself noticing new things, new views on rides that I've done dozens of 
 times before.  

 I should note that at least on my Quickbeam, I do run a fairly slack 
 seating position, with a Nitto S84 (40mm offset) seatpost on the QB's 72 
 deg. seat tube, so I do still have a good angle between my torso and legs 
 even when my torso is bolt upright.  As I said before, I haven't seen the 
 Appaloosa geo, but I wouldn't be surprised if the seat tube angle were 
 slightly slacker, like maybe 71 deg, than the more standard Riv designs.  

 Also, don't underestimate the number of hand/back positions that are 
 possible with these bars.  If you do need a bit of back inclination, 
 sliding your hands forward is really effective at stretching you out.  

 On Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:38:39 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 One concern I have about using Albatross bars is that I fear that the 
 upright position might make me lose power (and I don't have much). I always 
 feel stronger when pushing from well behind the bb with my torso at 45* or 
 more -- I often naturally fall into the hooks when I want a bit of power up 
 a rise or against a wind -- the hooks are for power as much as aerodynamics.

 I look at old roadsters and can see that, with their hugely slack seat 
 tubes, even sitting upright you have a large bend between hips and torso. 
 How does this work with a steep 72* or 73* seat tube?

 On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Jeremy Till jerem...@gmail.com wrote:
 When I rode the proto, Keven made the comparison to engine placement in 
 a sports car.  Just going upright on a bike with normal chainstay length, 
 you end up with something like an early 80's Porsche, with the engine 
 hanging out over the rear wheels, making the front end of the car light.  
 In bikes, this becomes a problem for attacking steep climbs, since the 
 front wheel won't stay planted.  According to Keven, extending the 
 chainstays helps make things more balanced in turn and allows you to stay 
 upright with your butt planted in the saddle on climbs, rather than lean
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

This is all a matter of taste, I think. I'm 170 - 175, and my custom Rivs
ride just fine -- I've never felt that they are sluggish in any way, and
this compared to other bikes with the old standard sized and all 531
tubing.* My seat-of-the-pants test is how fast I can turn the cranks in a
given gear in given conditions and, #2, how well they do on hills in a 65
to 75 gear.

Of course, there are so many variables that this sort of discussion is
almost like shouting into an abyss, but I do know that, for me, the two
remaining customs have stood out for the *feeling* of speed and efficiency
for 10+ years (one is 10 years old, the other 14 years old). Funny,. the
two customs feel faster than the Ram, even with the Ram shod with
Paris-Roubaix tires. The Sam Hill felt like the Fargo -- not bad, but not
exactly sprightly.

Jim Thill: why the animus against French?

*And yet this particular bike (1973 Motobecane Grand Record, toute 531
racing bike) was one of the best load carriers I've ridden. Go figure.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Tue, 2013-05-07 at 20:09 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
  Undersized tubing? Maybe it's not obvious to everybody, but a lot of
  plus-sized people are drawn to Riv by the promise of high-bar comfort
  and sturdiness. Put some chugging 270-pounder on a bike with
  undersized tubes, and it's likely to get a bit too exciting to be
  enjoyable.

 I really don't like your use of the term undersized.  Riv tubes are
 OVERsize.  That's what it was called when it was introduced, and that's
 still what it's known as.  The stuff that's even larger diameter is
 known as over-over-size.   You can have high-bar comfort without
 excessive stiffness; the two are not inextricably linked.

 Furthermore, there's a lot of difference between a 190-220 lb plus
 size rider and the 270 pounder you write about.  I haven't seen too
 many 270 pounders, but plenty of those in the 0.1 ton category
 (including myself), and we do not necessarily need the excessive
 stiffness Rivs now provide.  In fact, that excessive stiffness takes
 away a good deal of enjoyment in my opinion, especially by making the
 bikes reluctant climbers.

  I come down on the Riv side. I shy away from the faintest whiff of
  daintiness and anything that seems French. I draw a lot more parallels
  between RBW and Surly than I do between RBW and the integrated rando
  bike concept.
 

 And you know what people say about the Surly LHT: rides like a tank, way
 overbuilt for unloaded riding.   I've never ridden a Surly LHT, but I
 have owned two Rivendells.  While I think they were excessively stiff,
 they definitely didn't ride like tanks.

 While many randonneurs have turned Rivs into rando bikes, Rivendells are
 perhaps the exact opposite of integrated.  Doug Brooks called it
 resourceful vs resolved.



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http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Michael

What actually is a Randonneur frame?

Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more suited 
to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - fenderability and 
tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic Fenders and Hetres

2013-05-08 Thread Leslie

Nice!   

What's the gearing on your White crank?

-L

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:09:30 PM UTC-4, ttoshi wrote:

 Hey Alex, 

 That's awesome!  I may get the Leger tires whenever my regular Hetres 
 wear out.  Did you have any brake reach issues in the rear? 

 Toshi 


 On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Alex Zeibot 
 velob...@gmail.comjavascript: 
 wrote: 
  Here is my newly converted 650b Rambouillet with new Hetre Legers and 
 SKS 
  Longboards.  The tires and fenders fit just perfectly fine with few 
  millimeters to spare.  FWIW - The new Legers are exact 41mm wide. 
  Pictures: 
  
  650b converted Rambouillet w/Herte Leger and Longboards 
  
  Alex, 
  St. Paul, 


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[RBW] Re: Mounting a Dyno Light on a Nitto Mini Front Rack with a Basket?

2013-05-08 Thread Leslie

What I did, I wanted the light forward enough to miss my rando-box bag, so 
I used a mount bolted to the tab at the front of my Mark's rack, to put the 
light out front.

Scroll to the bottom of this page:  
http://peterwhitecycles.com/light-mounts.asp, and look at the BM Lumotec 
Fly Cantilever Mount

I used it w/ my Edelux.  (Peter's page says not to, because its designed as 
a fork crown mount, and would put it too low there, with the tire blocking 
light; but using it on the front of the rack, the light is forward of the 
tire)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/leslie_bright/8351735340/in/pool-70497321@N00/lightbox/

Just a thought, something like that might work for your setup, maybe?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/leslie_bright/8351735340/in/pool-70497321@N00/lightbox/

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Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa - the first of a whole new horse breed?

2013-05-08 Thread Steven Frederick

Patrick Moore wrote:

Has anyone used the SOMA Clarence bar?

I've used the OnOne Mary bars which seem to be identical or nearly so.
They are a nice trail-bikey all 'rounder bar.  With Ergon grips they're
pretty swell.

My favorite mtb/flat alternative bar is currently the Salsa Bend 17degree.
Way comfy!

Steve

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote:
 What actually is a Randonneur frame?

 Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more 
 suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - 
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?

Think about the mission.  

You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't
fatigue you because it rides roughly.  You can expect that the rider is
going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're
riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling
that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive.

You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through
the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night.  In some
places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range.  You
can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can
stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry
the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day.
More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have
to carry bags of some kind.  The more accessible those bags are when
you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a
pair of sun glasses, for example) the better.

On the longer rides you will have to ride at night.  That means you'll
need a lighting system.  The really long rides will outlast the range of
battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or
will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries.

Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country
spring is a rainy season.  You can't skip out on a ride because it
rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather.  The worst
part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and
to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also
should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you.
That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike
should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them.

All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit.  Time
allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain.  Go too
slow and you won't finish in time.  Also, the rides are typically in
mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you
can climb long, steep hills.

Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do.
Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises
will be made.  In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so
few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the
rules to make them optional.  Some people do without them.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa - the first of a whole new horse breed?

2013-05-08 Thread Jeremy Till

Yep, just posted an update here: 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85709120@N07/8714991825/in/photostream

-jeremy

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 6:55:21 AM UTC-7, Peter Pesce wrote:

 Hey Jeremy-

 Do you have a pic of the Bosco bars on your QB? I moved my Albas to my 
 Sam, and put Noodles on the QB, but now I want to go back to upright on the 
 QB, and I'm not sure if I should get another set of Albas or try the Bosco.

 Thanks!

 Pete in CT

 On Sunday, May 5, 2013 11:47:12 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Till wrote:

 Keven and I talked about this when I rode the Appaloosa and subsequently 
 bought some Bosco Bullmooses for my Quickbeam.  Keven reports feeling like 
 he actually has more power on his proto-appaloosa with the upright position 
 versus his earlier drop bar bikes.  After putting the Boscos on my 
 Quickbeam (coming from a relatively racy flat bar setup before, which kept 
 my back much more inclined), I can report that I feel absolutely no loss of 
 power going to full-upright, including on long, low-rpm, singlespeed 
 climbs, which you know all about, Patrick.  And in general, I feel less 
 worn out after riding the QB with the upright position versus similar rides 
 on the previous flat bars.  

 I'm also amazed at how much better the view is from up there.  I find 
 myself noticing new things, new views on rides that I've done dozens of 
 times before.  

 I should note that at least on my Quickbeam, I do run a fairly slack 
 seating position, with a Nitto S84 (40mm offset) seatpost on the QB's 72 
 deg. seat tube, so I do still have a good angle between my torso and legs 
 even when my torso is bolt upright.  As I said before, I haven't seen the 
 Appaloosa geo, but I wouldn't be surprised if the seat tube angle were 
 slightly slacker, like maybe 71 deg, than the more standard Riv designs.  

 Also, don't underestimate the number of hand/back positions that are 
 possible with these bars.  If you do need a bit of back inclination, 
 sliding your hands forward is really effective at stretching you out.  

 On Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:38:39 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 One concern I have about using Albatross bars is that I fear that the 
 upright position might make me lose power (and I don't have much). I always 
 feel stronger when pushing from well behind the bb with my torso at 45* or 
 more -- I often naturally fall into the hooks when I want a bit of power up 
 a rise or against a wind -- the hooks are for power as much as aerodynamics.

 I look at old roadsters and can see that, with their hugely slack seat 
 tubes, even sitting upright you have a large bend between hips and torso. 
 How does this work with a steep 72* or 73* seat tube?

 On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Jeremy Till jerem...@gmail.com wrote:
 When I rode the proto, Keven made the comparison to engine placement 
 in a sports car.  Just going upright on a bike with normal chainstay 
 length, you end up with something like an early 80's Porsche, with the 
 engine hanging out over the rear wheels, making the front end of the car 
 light.  In bikes, this becomes a problem for attacking steep climbs, since 
 the front wheel won't stay planted.  According to Keven, extending the 
 chainstays helps make things more balanced in turn and allows you to stay 
 upright with your butt planted in the saddle on climbs, rather than lean
  


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[RBW] FS: saddle, shifters

2013-05-08 Thread johnb

For sale

2 pairs of Silver Shifters with splitters (actually 1.5 sets of splitters). 
Shifter end has splitters but they both joined the same rear section. I 
would like to sell these as a pair for someone looking to have two cockpits 
on one bike. I moved to downtube shifters to simplify this a bit more. They 
were used for two seasons. $30 (2 pairs) + Shipping

1 B17 Mens Honey hardly used (two weeks maybe?). $50 + shipping

If you buy all three, I will pick up the shipping.

Contact off group if interested.

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[RBW] Re: FS: Rivendell Atlantis f/f/hs 56cm

2013-05-08 Thread Joe Bernard

In my opinion you'll have better luck at $1000, but sometimes it's just a 
matter of timing with a group of this limited size, especially considering 
many of us already have one-or-more Rivs.
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:30:38 PM UTC-7, a w wrote:

 Hi, I posted my Atlantis frame for sale and haven't gotten much response. 
 Am I out of touch with the market? I didn't think $1400 shipped  was 
 unreasonable for a frame in pretty good shape, is my price too high? Thanks 
 for any input. Art

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Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa - the first of a whole new horse breed?

2013-05-08 Thread James Warren

Ah, the last 64 cm orange QB!Looks great.-Original Message-
From: Jeremy Till 
Sent: May 8, 2013 8:11 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Appaloosa - the first of a whole new horse breed?

Yep, just posted an update here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/85709120@N07/8714991825/in/photostream-jeremyOn Wednesday, May 8, 2013 6:55:21 AM UTC-7, Peter Pesce wrote:Hey Jeremy-Do you have a pic of the Bosco bars on your QB? I moved my Albas to my Sam, and put Noodles on the QB, but now I want to go back to upright on the QB, and I'm not sure if I should get another set of Albas or try the Bosco.Thanks!Pete in CTOn Sunday, May 5, 2013 11:47:12 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Till wrote:Keven and I talked about this when I rode the Appaloosa and subsequently bought some Bosco Bullmooses for my Quickbeam. Keven reports feeling like he actually has more power on his proto-appaloosa with the upright position versus his earlier drop bar bikes. After putting the Boscos on my Quickbeam (coming from a relatively racy flat bar setup before, which kept my back much more inclined), I can report that I feel absolutely no loss of power going to full-upright, including on long, low-rpm, singlespeed climbs, which you know all about, Patrick. And in general, I feel less worn out after riding the QB with the upright position versus similar rides on the previous flat bars. I'm also amazed at how much better the view is from up there. I find myself noticing new things, new views on rides that I've done dozens of times before. I should note that at least on my Quickbeam, I do run a fairly slack seating position, with a Nitto S84 (40mm offset) seatpost on the QB's 72 deg. seat tube, so I do still have a good angle between my torso and legs even when my torso is bolt upright. As I said before, I haven't seen the Appaloosa geo, but I wouldn't be surprised if the seat tube angle were slightly slacker, like maybe 71 deg, than the more standard Riv designs. Also, don't underestimate the number of hand/back positions that are possible with these bars. If you do need a bit of back inclination, sliding your hands forward is really effective at stretching you out. On Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:38:39 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:One concern I have about using Albatross bars is that I fear that the upright position might make me lose power (and I don't have much). I always feel stronger when pushing from well behind the bb with my torso at 45* or more -- I often naturally fall into the hooks when I want a bit of power up a rise or against a wind -- the hooks are for power as much as aerodynamics.
I look at old roadsters and can see that, with their hugely slack seat tubes, even sitting upright you have a large bend between hips and torso. How does this work with a steep 72* or 73* seat tube?
On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Jeremy Till jerem...@gmail.com wrote:"When I rode the proto, Keven made the comparison to engine placement in a sports car. Just going upright on a bike with "normal" chainstay length, you end up with something like an early 80's Porsche, with the engine hanging out over the rear wheels, making the front end of the car light. In bikes, this becomes a problem for attacking steep climbs, since the front wheel won't stay planted. According to Keven, extending the chainstays helps make things more balanced in turn and allows you to stay upright with your butt planted in the saddle on climbs, rather than lean"

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread James Warren


Very thorough description. Describing the mission is a good way to highlight a 
point that has already been made: Rivendells are designed for riding that 
doesn't resemble that description. So comparing Rivendells to BQ bikes is an 
apples/oranges thing.


-Original Message-
From: Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com
Sent: May 8, 2013 8:03 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote:
 What actually is a Randonneur frame?

 Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more 
 suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - 
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?

Think about the mission.  

You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't
fatigue you because it rides roughly.  You can expect that the rider is
going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're
riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling
that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive.

You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through
the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night.  In some
places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range.  You
can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can
stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry
the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day.
More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have
to carry bags of some kind.  The more accessible those bags are when
you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a
pair of sun glasses, for example) the better.

On the longer rides you will have to ride at night.  That means you'll
need a lighting system.  The really long rides will outlast the range of
battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or
will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries.

Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country
spring is a rainy season.  You can't skip out on a ride because it
rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather.  The worst
part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and
to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also
should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you.
That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike
should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them.

All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit.  Time
allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain.  Go too
slow and you won't finish in time.  Also, the rides are typically in
mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you
can climb long, steep hills.

Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do.
Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises
will be made.  In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so
few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the
rules to make them optional.  Some people do without them.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Rivendell Atlantis f/f/hs 56cm

take for example this ad from a little while back, similar price but comes
with a boss set of wheels.

Christopher Miller Rosales cmillerrosa...@gmail.com
viahttp://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=enctx=mailanswer=1311182
 googlegroups.com
Apr 29 (9 days ago)
to rbw-owners-bun.
Hey all,

Letting go of a Rivendell Atlantis, 56cm in original blue/green/whatever
you would like to call it. Beautiful. Designed for 26 tires, and currently
rolling a nice wheelset. This is an older Atlantis with a bit if beausage,
but mostly in great condition. No major paint chips, some smudges here and
there and a few scratches like any good touring frame will have.

I have linked the Flickr page with pictures of the set up. Also on there,
find pictures of my Long Haul Trucker that's on local Craigslist, would
give a KILLER deal if you are interested in both (
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/3766174918.html).

Rear wheel is a Phil Wood laced to beefy Maverick rims, 7 speed Sunrace
freewheel, front is Suntour XC Pro to matching Maverick rim. Michelin City
tires with tons of tread left.



Selling Frame/Fork/Headset(ultegra) + wheelset for $1,300.

Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/21267164@N02/
8690649369/in/photostream/


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

 In my opinion you'll have better luck at $1000, but sometimes it's just a
 matter of timing with a group of this limited size, especially considering
 many of us already have one-or-more Rivs.

 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:30:38 PM UTC-7, a w wrote:

 Hi, I posted my Atlantis frame for sale and haven't gotten much response.
 Am I out of touch with the market? I didn't think $1400 shipped  was
 unreasonable for a frame in pretty good shape, is my price too high? Thanks
 for any input. Art

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

I have never read BQ, but it is my understanding that they are recommending
a type of bike that isn't off the peg or readily available, the Classic
Randonneur so as pointed out on the Lovely Bicycle blog it might be hard
for a lot of us to make a comparison.  Maybe the VO Polyvalent?


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:41 AM, James Warren jimcwar...@earthlink.netwrote:


 Very thorough description. Describing the mission is a good way to
 highlight a point that has already been made: Rivendells are designed for
 riding that doesn't resemble that description. So comparing Rivendells to
 BQ bikes is an apples/oranges thing.


 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com
 Sent: May 8, 2013 8:03 AM
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes
 
 On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote:
  What actually is a Randonneur frame?
 
  Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more
 suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes -
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?
 
 Think about the mission.
 
 You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't
 fatigue you because it rides roughly.  You can expect that the rider is
 going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're
 riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling
 that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive.
 
 You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through
 the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night.  In some
 places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range.  You
 can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can
 stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry
 the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day.
 More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have
 to carry bags of some kind.  The more accessible those bags are when
 you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a
 pair of sun glasses, for example) the better.
 
 On the longer rides you will have to ride at night.  That means you'll
 need a lighting system.  The really long rides will outlast the range of
 battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or
 will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries.
 
 Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country
 spring is a rainy season.  You can't skip out on a ride because it
 rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather.  The worst
 part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and
 to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also
 should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you.
 That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike
 should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them.
 
 All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit.  Time
 allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain.  Go too
 slow and you won't finish in time.  Also, the rides are typically in
 mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you
 can climb long, steep hills.
 
 Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do.
 Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises
 will be made.  In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so
 few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the
 rules to make them optional.  Some people do without them.
 
 
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread jpp

Randonneur is the new cyclocross.  Nothing wrong with either, but like 10 
years ago it seemed everyone started making cyclocross bikes and everybody 
started racing, now it has shifted to Rando.  But I agree with Jim Thill, 
get a nice bike you like and JUST RIDE!  



On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 10:39:16 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:

 What actually is a Randonneur frame?

 Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more 
 suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - 
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?


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[RBW] Looking for Velo Orange Crank FS

2013-05-08 Thread Eric Norris

Can the person offering the Velo Orange Grand Cru crankset for sale please 
contact me? I'm interested in buying it. 

–Eric N
Sent from my iPhone 5

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[RBW] FS: saddle, shifters

2013-05-08 Thread johnb

Sold

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

Steve P: I used the term undersized in reference to tubing because the 
smaller tubing diameter has become nonstandard over the last 20 or so years. 
You can switch it around and refer to that which is the current norm as 
oversized if you prefer, but that seems like too much effort swimming 
upstream, not to mention meaningless when the old standards are pretty much 
extinct. I vote that we trash all these judgmental words and just use numbers.

I would add that our physical preferences arise in our heads. If we're 
predisposed to identifying with Jan's personality and attitude, then we'll 
bring that predisposition with us when we ride the bikes Jan likes. If we are 
more in tune with GP's style, then, gosh darn it, that Riv is the best bike one 
could imagine. 

As for the Surly LHT, I ride one almost daily. It suits me. It's tough and as 
fast as I care to be on a bicycle. I can beat the Hell out of it, and if it 
somehow doesn't survive, I can buy a new one this afternoon without losing much 
sleep. But yes, I also sell the LHT, and often I'm asked about its weight. I 
always tell people that if weight is a concern, even an imaginary one, the LHT 
isn't for them. But hey, the Cross-check is kinda the same, but lighter. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Bryan

I've never given this whole debate much thought. I like Rivendell bikes 
because when I manage to squeeze two or three hours out of my busy schedule 
on a weekend for a ride in the local mountains, I want to ride a road 
bike that will take me anywhere, including rocky trails if the notion 
grabs me. I hardly ever ride with other people, so speed is irrelevant. For 
commuting, I've been doing the rear load thing for at least 20 years (I 
still use my early '90s Overland panniers every day!), so the idea of a 
front load bike doesn't do much for me, although it seems that people carry 
front loads on Rivs and they seem to work fine for that, too. 


Bryan

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Matthew J

I am somewhat contrarian - at least from the Riv / BQ perspective.
 
In the nine years now I've been without a car, I have come to the 
conclusion that I far prefer a a low trail bike with porteur style rack for 
urban commuting and errand running.  For me it is easier popping my things 
and purchases into a front mounted porteur bag.
 
Unless absolutely necessary, I do not drive on vacations either.  For cycle 
vacations I like a bike with lower Mid-trail geometry with luggage in 
panniers weight divided 60 front / 40 back.  I currently have a custom for 
this, but previously toured on a Hilsen  worked great.
 
My third and purely recreational bike has higher trail '80s Italian race 
bike geometry.  I use this mainly for weekend fun rides.  This bike has no 
provisions for fenders or racks.  If the weather is absolutely certain to 
be dry for the weekend, I have loaded a change of clothes in a large 
Carradice saddle bag and ridden up to my Dad's house (about 70 miles a way) 
no problem.  

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[RBW] Re: Anyone have recommendations for a good Electrolyte solution.

2013-05-08 Thread hsmitham

Yes carrying pickle brine probably isn't the most convenient though I 
imagine you could drink it post ride and that could help, I'm inclined to 
ingest a solution before, during and post ride. I  forgot to mention I'm 
going to try Coco hydro in the future as Ted Durant Milwaukee recommended 
and the V-8 juice this Saturday as Mike recommended .

Cheers,

Hugh

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:27:20 PM UTC-7, ColonelJLloyd wrote:

 Pickle brine can stop a cramp, but I don't believe it is known why. It 
 works for me, but it does not prevent cramps and I don't carry pickle brine 
 on bike rides. 

 I like the Clif Shot Blocks margarita flavor. 3x the sodium. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic Fenders and Hetres

Hi Toshi,
No brake issues in either the front or rear.  I believe couple of mm to
spare in the rear.
Alex


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Toshi Takeuchi tto...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hey Alex,

 That's awesome!  I may get the Leger tires whenever my regular Hetres
 wear out.  Did you have any brake reach issues in the rear?

 Toshi


 On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Alex Zeibot veloban...@gmail.com wrote:
  Here is my newly converted 650b Rambouillet with new Hetre Legers and SKS
  Longboards.  The tires and fenders fit just perfectly fine with few
  millimeters to spare.  FWIW - The new Legers are exact 41mm wide.
  Pictures:
 
  650b converted Rambouillet w/Herte Leger and Longboards
 
  Alex,
  St. Paul,

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Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic Fenders and Hetres

Hi Leslie,
170mm cranks w/ 42x16 with 11-28 cassette.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Leslie leslie.bri...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nice!

 What's the gearing on your White crank?

 -L


 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:09:30 PM UTC-4, ttoshi wrote:

 Hey Alex,

 That's awesome!  I may get the Leger tires whenever my regular Hetres
 wear out.  Did you have any brake reach issues in the rear?

 Toshi


 On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Alex Zeibot velob...@gmail.com wrote:
  Here is my newly converted 650b Rambouillet with new Hetre Legers and
 SKS
  Longboards.  The tires and fenders fit just perfectly fine with few
  millimeters to spare.  FWIW - The new Legers are exact 41mm wide.
  Pictures:
 
  650b converted Rambouillet w/Herte Leger and Longboards
 
  Alex,
  St. Paul,

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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Rivendell Atlantis f/f/hs 56cm

2013-05-08 Thread hsmitham

I don't think starting out at $1400 is wrong as long as you are willing to 
negotiate down to what the market will bear and of course the condition of 
the frame is a major factor. What I have found from this group, if you ask 
for too much rather than negotiate you down they let it sit rather than 
offend. If on the other hand it is priced correctly it's snapped up 
immediately. As a general rule I figure on current used parts they go for 
50% of the new value, On hard to find discontinued items like a Baggins 
bags the value seems to hold. On a bike frame which is rider dimensional 
specific yours fitting a large segment of riders (I'm guessing here) the 
value might be 2/3 which would put you at $1380 so if you priced it a bit 
lower? Really depends how quickly you want it gone. I wish I had the money 
to pick it up but I have too many projects hanging in the Garage.

Best,

Hugh

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:44:52 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

 take for example this ad from a little while back, similar price but comes 
 with a boss set of wheels. 
  
 Christopher Miller Rosales cmiller...@gmail.com javascript: 
 viahttp://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=enctx=mailanswer=1311182
  googlegroups.com 
 Apr 29 (9 days ago)
  to rbw-owners-bun. 
 Hey all,

 Letting go of a Rivendell Atlantis, 56cm in original blue/green/whatever 
 you would like to call it. Beautiful. Designed for 26 tires, and currently 
 rolling a nice wheelset. This is an older Atlantis with a bit if beausage, 
 but mostly in great condition. No major paint chips, some smudges here and 
 there and a few scratches like any good touring frame will have.

 I have linked the Flickr page with pictures of the set up. Also on there, 
 find pictures of my Long Haul Trucker that's on local Craigslist, would 
 give a KILLER deal if you are interested in both (
 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/3766174918.html).

 Rear wheel is a Phil Wood laced to beefy Maverick rims, 7 speed Sunrace 
 freewheel, front is Suntour XC Pro to matching Maverick rim. Michelin City 
 tires with tons of tread left.



 Selling Frame/Fork/Headset(ultegra) + wheelset for $1,300.

 Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/21267164@N02/
 8690649369/in/photostream/


 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joe Bernard joer...@gmail.comjavascript:
  wrote:

 In my opinion you'll have better luck at $1000, but sometimes it's just a 
 matter of timing with a group of this limited size, especially considering 
 many of us already have one-or-more Rivs.
  
 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:30:38 PM UTC-7, a w wrote:

 Hi, I posted my Atlantis frame for sale and haven't gotten much 
 response. Am I out of touch with the market? I didn't think $1400 shipped 
  was unreasonable for a frame in pretty good shape, is my price too high? 
 Thanks for any input. Art

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[RBW] And it has wool in it!

2013-05-08 Thread clyde canter

http://www.wcyb.com/shirt-can-be-worn-100-times-before-washing/-/14590664/20008266/-/8v214q/-/index.html

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[RBW] Re: And it has wool in it!

2013-05-08 Thread Ron Mc

it's a great theory, but when the birds start landing on it to eat the 
crumbs, it's time to wash it.  

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, ccanter wrote:


 http://www.wcyb.com/shirt-can-be-worn-100-times-before-washing/-/14590664/20008266/-/8v214q/-/index.html


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RE: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

2013-05-08 Thread Larry Powers

After nearly 10 years of riding a Rambouillet I have found that with fenders 
the bike is built for 28mm tires.  Yes I did get slightly bigger tires on for 
awhile, Grand Bois 30mm,  but everything had to be just right.  I am feeding 
mine a steady diet of Ruffy Tuffy tires.

Without fenders the Jack browns would probably be a great choice.

Larry Powers 

 

Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain


Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 15:39:12 -0700
From: kjo...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Hi all,
New Riv owner, long time lurker.
Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all the 
parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.
However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would fit 
on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some ~32mm light 
duty gumwall tires lying around?
I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the 
Challenge Eroica.
And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to change 
the bar tape- maybe pale blue?
Cheers,
Kieran



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[RBW] Re: New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

2013-05-08 Thread Michael Hechmer

I have a pair of lightly used JB's; one blue, one green.  I've sold the 
bike they were on and don't see a use for them now.  Nice tires though.

Michael

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 6:39:12 PM UTC-4, Kieran J wrote:

 Hi all,

 New Riv owner, long time lurker.

 Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all 
 the parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.

 However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would 
 fit on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some 
 ~32mm light duty gumwall tires lying around?

 I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the 
 Challenge Eroica.

 And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to 
 change the bar tape- maybe pale blue?

 Cheers,


 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SEAW5zsehOk/UYmCLP67OAI/ADI/1Ji5shM3Cfg/s1600/IMG_1947.JPG
 Kieran


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Re: [RBW] Re: And it has wool in it!

Hipsters don't wash their clothes anyway, unless its ironically.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Ron Mc bulldog...@gmail.com wrote:

 it's a great theory, but when the birds start landing on it to eat the
 crumbs, it's time to wash it.


 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 1:03:07 PM UTC-5, ccanter wrote:

 http://www.wcyb.com/shirt-can-**be-worn-100-times-before-**
 washing/-/14590664/20008266/-/**8v214q/-/index.htmlhttp://www.wcyb.com/shirt-can-be-worn-100-times-before-washing/-/14590664/20008266/-/8v214q/-/index.html

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 09:03 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

 Steve P: I used the term undersized in reference to tubing because
 the smaller tubing diameter has become nonstandard over the last 20 or
 so years. You can switch it around and refer to that which is the
 current norm as oversized if you prefer, but that seems like too
 much effort swimming upstream, not to mention meaningless when the old
 standards are pretty much extinct. I vote that we trash all these
 judgmental words and just use numbers.
 

Undersized implies too small, insufficient, wrong.  If you object to
calling the smaller diameter tubing standard then the best thing would
be to specify the tubing diameter. That's not value-laden.

 I would add that our physical preferences arise in our heads. If we're
 predisposed to identifying with Jan's personality and attitude, then
 we'll bring that predisposition with us when we ride the bikes Jan
 likes. If we are more in tune with GP's style, then, gosh darn it,
 that Riv is the best bike one could imagine. 
 

Not applicable here.  I was totally on board with GP's choices when I
bought the Rambouillet and the Saluki.  Experience showed me those
frames were too stiff for me.  I had a couple of good comparisons: a
Merlin-built Titanium Spectrum custom, and a George Longstaff that was
very similar in concept to the Rambouillet, only made with a light gauge
standard diameter tubing.  I could see how much better the Spectrum and
the Longstaff did on hills, and when Jan came along and gave what I was
experiencing a name, it all became crystal clear.

So you can forget about predispositions here.  My experience parallels
what Jan wrote in his blog about the journey of discovery.

Yes, I fell in love with the look of a couple of Jack Taylors I saw at
GEAR 1975 with Lefol fenders and TA handlebar bags.  I put a handlebar
bag on my Paramount, rode it that way for a few years, and then when the
bracket broke and I removed the bag, was shocked to see how much that
bag caused the handling to degrade; from that point on and for the next
15 years or so I was totally against handlebar bags.

And then I rode some centuries with a Carradice on days that switched
from sunny to cloudy to rain to overcast to sunny on about a 60 minute
cycle, and found having to stop to park the bike and get my sun glasses
out of the rear bag and then after a half hour stop to put them away was
driving me totally crazy.  Obviously, having the sun glasses up front
was the way to go, you didn't have to dismount, park the bike and
rummage around in a rear bag.  

But what about that awful handling deterioration?  And then I read about
those little racks supporting the handlebar bags.  And the changes in
fork rake that eliminated the feeling of the weight of the bag through
the steering.

So no, I wasn't predisposed to agree with Jan; I was predisposed to
agree with Grant.  Experience taught me that Jan was right.

 As for the Surly LHT, I ride one almost daily. It suits me. It's tough and as 
 fast as I care to be on a bicycle. I can beat the Hell out of it, and if it 
 somehow doesn't survive, I can buy a new one this afternoon without losing 
 much sleep. But yes, I also sell the LHT, and often I'm asked about its 
 weight. I always tell people that if weight is a concern, even an imaginary 
 one, the LHT isn't for them. But hey, the Cross-check is kinda the same, but 
 lighter. 

The comments I've heard about LHT handling had nothing to do with
weight, but rather a feeling of ponderousness.  But, as I say, I've
never ridden one.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread William

So no, I wasn't predisposed to agree with Jan; I was predisposed to 
agree with Grant.  Experience taught me that Jan was right. 



Of course you don't mean that Jan was objectively right, and by extension 
that Grant was/is objectively wrong.  You mean that subjectively, for you 
and the riding and characteristics you have evolved to prefer, Jan was 
right.  

Right?




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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 12:14 -0700, William wrote:
 So no, I wasn't predisposed to agree with Jan; I was predisposed to 
 agree with Grant.  Experience taught me that Jan was right. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Of course you don't mean that Jan was objectively right, and by
 extension that Grant was/is objectively wrong.  You mean that
 subjectively, for you and the riding and characteristics you have
 evolved to prefer, Jan was right.  
 

When on one bike I can easily power up a small grade and on the other I
have to downshift downshift downshift we are beyond the realm of the
subjective, and are firmly in objective territory.

So yes I do mean Jan was objectively right.



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RE: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

It seems to me that what you've just said, Steve -- and I think it's all you've 
said -- is that you personally (and subjectively) value the incremental benefit 
in climbing/pedaling efficiency (relative to the efficiency of your Saluki) 
more than you value whatever is given up in other desirable characteristics of 
a bicycle (which in your subjective view may be very little; others might take 
a different view) to achieve that incremental efficiency.   We can objectively 
measure that incremental pedaling efficiency.  It's a lot harder (I think I 
would say impossible) to make an objective judgment of the net value to all 
riders (as opposed to any one individual rider) of the costs and benefits of 
any isolated design decision. 

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 3:28 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 12:14 -0700, William wrote:
 So no, I wasn't predisposed to agree with Jan; I was predisposed to 
 agree with Grant.  Experience taught me that Jan was right. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Of course you don't mean that Jan was objectively right, and by 
 extension that Grant was/is objectively wrong.  You mean that 
 subjectively, for you and the riding and characteristics you have 
 evolved to prefer, Jan was right.
 

When on one bike I can easily power up a small grade and on the other I have to 
downshift downshift downshift we are beyond the realm of the subjective, and 
are firmly in objective territory.

So yes I do mean Jan was objectively right.



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[RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread Minh

Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's 
but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are 
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.  

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 
 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at 
 either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the 
 price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but 
 is there really that much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is 
 there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan



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RE: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 19:40 +, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:
 It seems to me that what you've just said, Steve -- and I think it's
 all you've said -- is that you personally (and subjectively) value the
 incremental benefit in climbing/pedaling efficiency (relative to the
 efficiency of your Saluki) more than you value whatever is given up in
 other desirable characteristics of a bicycle (which in your subjective
 view may be very little; others might take a different view) to
 achieve that incremental efficiency.   We can objectively measure that
 incremental pedaling efficiency.  It's a lot harder (I think I would
 say impossible) to make an objective judgment of the net value to all
 riders (as opposed to any one individual rider) of the costs and
 benefits of any isolated design decision. 
 

I said there's a real, objective difference.  It's not just
subjective.  I'm not imagining it.  It's real.

Now as to trade-offs and costs vs benefits: I'm unaware of having given
up anything as a result of this change.  I won't even call it a
trade-off, because that implies you're giving up something to get
something else.  

I'll come right out with it: the notion that all stiffness is good, and
that infinite stiffness is infinitely good is just plain wrong.  There's
no doubt that for some loadings, some frames will have insufficient
stiffness and that some additional amount will provide just enough; but
going beyond that point into the realm of more does not provide
additional benefit, even though it is measurable.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Mike Schiller

...very few people have ridden a bike like Jan suggests so it's hard to 
accept that there is a difference.  A standard dia. 531 tubed bike is built 
stiffer than Jan's performance based Randonneuring bikes.  
While I believe humans  can adapt to most any thing, there are 
subtle advantages to the low trail lightweight bike. If all you ride is an 
Atlantis or LHT you believe that it works well and are probably 
happy. Through my own experimentation I have found that on mostly road and 
smooth dirt the lightweight tubed and low trail  bikes are optimal for me. 
When I get in the rougher dirt or for loaded touring it makes less of a 
difference. 

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.




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RE: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

I said there's a real, objective difference.  It's not just subjective.  I'm 
not imagining it.  It's real.

Agreed -- the real difference you've identified is an improvement in climbing 
efficiency (or maybe more generally, pedaling efficiency overall).  I wasn't 
suggesting that it was imagined -- in fact I suggested it could probably be 
measured.

Now as to trade-offs and costs vs benefits: I'm unaware of having given up 
anything as a result of this change.  I won't even call it a trade-off, 
because that implies you're giving up something to get something else.

I don't doubt that you're unaware of having given up anything that's of value 
to you as a result of the change from the Saluki to the MAP.  That was my point 
in qualifying my statement about giving up other desirable characteristics of a 
bicycle with the parenthetical which in your subjective view may be very 
little (I should have gone further and acknowledged that in your subjective 
view it could be nil).  But I have to say that I'm skeptical that every rider 
will exactly share your view about the trade-off -- Jim Thill, for example, 
seems to have at least a somewhat different view of the trade-off.

As many people have said on this list in many different contexts, bicycle 
design involves endless compromises, and different riders I think inevitably 
will prefer different sets of compromises for different uses.

Having said all that, I do very much appreciate the detail with which you've 
laid out the reasons for your preferences -- it's very informative, and helps 
me think more clearly about what I like in a bike, and why.

Back to work.


-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 3:47 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 19:40 +, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:
 It seems to me that what you've just said, Steve -- and I think it's
 all you've said -- is that you personally (and subjectively) value the
 incremental benefit in climbing/pedaling efficiency (relative to the
 efficiency of your Saluki) more than you value whatever is given up in
 other desirable characteristics of a bicycle (which in your subjective
 view may be very little; others might take a different view) to
 achieve that incremental efficiency.   We can objectively measure that
 incremental pedaling efficiency.  It's a lot harder (I think I would
 say impossible) to make an objective judgment of the net value to all
 riders (as opposed to any one individual rider) of the costs and
 benefits of any isolated design decision.


I said there's a real, objective difference.  It's not just subjective.  I'm 
not imagining it.  It's real.

Now as to trade-offs and costs vs benefits: I'm unaware of having given up 
anything as a result of this change.  I won't even call it a trade-off, because 
that implies you're giving up something to get something else.

I'll come right out with it: the notion that all stiffness is good, and that 
infinite stiffness is infinitely good is just plain wrong.  There's no doubt 
that for some loadings, some frames will have insufficient stiffness and that 
some additional amount will provide just enough; but going beyond that point 
into the realm of more does not provide additional benefit, even though it is 
measurable.



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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

To add, VO fenders are pre-drilled as contrasted to the Honjos that gives
me more convenience and headache free installation.  Can't speak for
Berthouds as I never had them.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's
 but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.


 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I
 need some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit
 over 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm
 looking at either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over
 twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid
 disappointment but is there really that much of a difference between VO and
 Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks,
 Ojiisan

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Re: [RBW] Anyone have recommendations for a good Electrolyte solution.

2013-05-08 Thread ascpgh

Prepared mustard has brine and vinegar in it to stop and stabilize the 
escalating heat of an evolving mustard/water solution. The substance making 
the hotness, isothiocyanate, is a great antioxidant.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh 

A friend carries a bottle of French's Mustard in his front bag and takes 
 squeezes off that during brevets. I guess it has vinegar or something in it 
 that provides relief from cramps.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Philip Williamson

This excellent summation of a randonneur bike's mission also describes a 
commute bike's mission. You need to get yourself and some gear to a 
destination, on time. A commuter (this one, anyway), may get a randonneur's 
five hour feeling at the 40 minute mark. 

In the bigger debate, I don't really see a debate at all. You take what's 
useful, and make it your own. All of my bikes owe a lot to both Grant and 
Jan's ideas. Except the mountain bike - that's more a Keith Bontrager / 
Charlie Cunningham joint. And the Gravel Roadster is sort of a Sheldon 
Brown / Jeff Jones thing... But the way I set up the Quickbeam and the Ross 
low-trail fixed gear bikes surely owes a lot to both Jan and Grant. And 
Sheldon. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com 


On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:03:19 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote: 
  What actually is a Randonneur frame? 

  Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it more 
 suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - 
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded? 

 Think about the mission.   

 You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't 
 fatigue you because it rides roughly.  You can expect that the rider is 
 going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're 
 riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling 
 that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive. 

 You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through 
 the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night.  In some 
 places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range.  You 
 can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can 
 stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry 
 the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day. 
 More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have 
 to carry bags of some kind.  The more accessible those bags are when 
 you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a 
 pair of sun glasses, for example) the better. 

 On the longer rides you will have to ride at night.  That means you'll 
 need a lighting system.  The really long rides will outlast the range of 
 battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or 
 will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries. 

 Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country 
 spring is a rainy season.  You can't skip out on a ride because it 
 rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather.  The worst 
 part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and 
 to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also 
 should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you. 
 That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike 
 should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them. 

 All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit.  Time 
 allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain.  Go too 
 slow and you won't finish in time.  Also, the rides are typically in 
 mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you 
 can climb long, steep hills. 

 Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do. 
 Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises 
 will be made.  In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so 
 few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the 
 rules to make them optional.  Some people do without them.   





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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

I have had both Honjos and VO's. The Velo Orange are a great deal
comparatively speaking and like Alex said come pre-drilled. I know it has
been said that some VO fenders only have one Daruma attachment on the rear
but the 52mm Zeppelins def have two just like Honjos. Back in the day VO
didn't have a hammered option so I got the Honjos but VO has expanded their
collection significantly and I cant see spending the extra on Honjos unless
you need a size VO doesn't offer.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Alex Zeibot veloban...@gmail.com wrote:

 To add, VO fenders are pre-drilled as contrasted to the Honjos that gives
 me more convenience and headache free installation.  Can't speak for
 Berthouds as I never had them.


 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's
 but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.


 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I
 need some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit
 over 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm
 looking at either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over
 twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid
 disappointment but is there really that much of a difference between VO and
 Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks,
 Ojiisan

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[RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Chris Lampe 2

I tend to waffle between Grant's and Jan's viewpoints on bicycles.  I think 
part of that is curiosity about the type of ride that Rivendell's provide.  
I've heard so many glowing reports that I want to experience it for 
myself.  Also, I'm an uber-clydesdale and I trust Rivendell bicycles to be 
robust enough for me more than I do a lot of others.  On the other hand, if 
I weighed 180 and was in good shape.I would be all about performance 
but even then I think a Roadeo would fit my needs better than a dedicated 
Randonneur.  I don't plan on ever carrying anything on my bike so I think 
low trail would be detrimental to me. Light steel frame?  Sporty geometry?  
Light, high performance tires?  All of those would be my preference if I 
was light enough to take advantage of them. 
 

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:00:05 PM UTC-5, samh wrote:

 I was fascinated by the discussion here:


 http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/02/choosing-your-gospel-rivendell-vs.html



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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread David Hays

Does anybody have any experience fitting the 52mm VO Zeppelin fenders to a 
Homer over 42mm Hetres?
Thanks,
David


On May 8, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's but 
 have never gotten over the big price difference myself.
 
 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are slightly 
 thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.  
 
 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:
 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 700x32c 
 tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at either VO 
 fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the price of the VOs. 
 I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but is there really that 
 much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is there another fender 
 make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan
 
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Re: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

2013-05-08 Thread Kieran J

Yeah, will probably go without fenders for this one. I have other fendered
bikes for poor weather riding.

Going to try the Resist Nomad 700x35 (31 actual) to start. Cheap enough to
try 'em out for fun. I've heard people say that the Ram is most stable (or,
was meant for) 700x28's, but I can't say no to that wasted bit of
clearance...

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:12:42 PM UTC-4, Larry Powers wrote:

After nearly 10 years of riding a Rambouillet I have found that with
fenders the bike is built for 28mm tires. Yes I did get slightly bigger
tires on for awhile, Grand Bois 30mm, but everything had to be just
right. I am feeding mine a steady diet of Ruffy Tuffy tires.

Without fenders the Jack browns would probably be a great choice.

Larry Powers

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain

--
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 15:39:12 -0700
From: kjo...@gmail.com javascript:
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:
Subject: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Hi all,

New Riv owner, long time lurker.

Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all
the parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.

However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would
fit on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some
~32mm light duty gumwall tires lying around?

I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the
Challenge Eroica.

And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to
change the bar tape- maybe pale blue?

Cheers,

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SEAW5zsehOk/UYmCLP67OAI/ADI/1Ji5shM3Cfg/s1600/IMG_1947.JPG
Kieran

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Re: [RBW] Re: Show me your overstuffed Small Sackville Saddlesack

2013-05-08 Thread Doug Williams

 

Good points! I have a Small Sackville SaddleSack on order. I can't wait to 
try it out and I expect it will be great for the majority of what I do. 
That said; I just got back from Trader Joe's. I take my bike right into the 
store (leave the lock at home) and I use my bike as a shopping cart and my 
Ortlieb panniers as grocery bags. Very convenient! But both panniers were 
stuffed to the top. I weighed the panniers when I got home and they topped 
45 pounds! So shopping for a family of four is really beyond what even the 
Large Sackville SaddleSack could do. A nice thing about the Small Sackville 
SaddleSack is that I can just leave it on and it won’t interfere with my 
panniers when I’m using them. But most of the time I’ll just leave the 
panniers at home.

Just use the best tool for the job at hand.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 8:10:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 I don't think it's contentious at all. What a boring world where everybody 
 had the same opinion about everything. Let differences flourish! (In both 
 senses.) I am puzzled and somewhat amused by some people's thin 
 skinned-ness.

 Obviously this is a case where we each have our own preference, but 
 there's nothing at all wrong with that.

 FWIW, I personally prefer saddlebags for all but quite heavy or bulky 
 loads, simply because they don't require a rack (at least those I use on my 
 bikes) but I prefer panniers for the shopping ease. I wheel my bikes 
 through the stores as my shopping cart and find the grocery-specific Banjos 
 the best I've used -- wish I could afford the upscale Ortliebs, but for the 
 money the BBs are excellent. And of course they are so easy to put on and 
 take off. The hook on top/bungee on the bottom is not the most secure 
 system but for short grocery rides (I usually extend them to 11 miles rt or 
 more) they are fine.

 And a plug for the Medium Saddlesack. I've carried up to 30 lb and, more 
 to the point, it will carry as much as a single Ortlieb Packer, ie about 
 one paper grocery sack's worth with flap closed, though I -- and I 
 emphasize that I am speaking for myself -- find it considerably less easy 
 to load than an open-style pannier. 

 I am debating whether to continue the conversion of a larger-sized 
 Timbuktu bag into a pannier by bolting on an Ortlieb mount. Right now it's 
 got the simple dowel + toe straps system that works very well, but it takes 
 a tedious 10 seconds to release it. OTOH, the dowel/strap system does allow 
 me to use it also as a messenger bag while the Ortleib clamps would stick 
 out on the back ...

 On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Christopher Chen 
 cc...@nougat.orgjavascript:
  wrote:

 Can we please drop this thread and talk about something less contentious, 
 like carbs or carbon forks?

 cc

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 I want the kind of six pack you can't drink. -- Micah 

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 patric...@resumespecialties.com javascript:

 Albuquerque, NM
  

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[RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread Ojiisan

Thanks folks, This makes me less suspicious about VO fenders and unless I 
get some bad feed back or dire warning about VO fenders I'm sorta leaning 
toward them... Here are a few other thoughts I've had re. fenders: I like 
the look of the smooth fenders but now I'm thinking the hammered texture 
will camouflage minor dings and dents if and when they happen. Never having 
fenders before, are smooth aluminum fenders easily dented? Are hammered, 
fluted and smooth simply a style or look or are there some practical or 
structural reasons for smooth, fluted and hammered fenders?  Ojii

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:43:38 PM UTC-7, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 
 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at 
 either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the 
 price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but 
 is there really that much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is 
 there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Brian Campbell

These types of threads are equivalent to arguing over which is the better 
type of screw dirver, flat head or phillips head? Whichever best suites the 
job you want to accomplish. A true rando bike is a purpose built machine. 
Riv's are not built as rando bikes (integrated lights, front loading 
specific, etc.). You can use most any bike to do whatever ever you want. 
Can you ride a brevet on a Riv. ? Sure. Can you commute on a Rene Herse? 
Sure. It is up to the rider to determine what works works best for them.

 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Philip Williamson

Boulder http://renehersebicycles.com/ and Box 
Doghttp://www.boxdogbikes.com/products-the-bdb-pelican/bikes both sell 
off-the-peg randonneuses. Some older bikes are low trail 
(my old Ross), or a used Kogswell, or re-raking a fork on an under-used 
bike are some low-cost ways to try out the idea. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com



On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:53:22 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

 I have never read BQ, but it is my understanding that they are 
 recommending a type of bike that isn't off the peg or readily available, 
 the Classic Randonneur so as pointed out on the Lovely Bicycle blog it 
 might be hard for a lot of us to make a comparison.  Maybe the VO 
 Polyvalent?  


 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:41 AM, James Warren 
 jimcw...@earthlink.netjavascript:
  wrote:


 Very thorough description. Describing the mission is a good way to 
 highlight a point that has already been made: Rivendells are designed for 
 riding that doesn't resemble that description. So comparing Rivendells to 
 BQ bikes is an apples/oranges thing.


 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Palincsar pali...@his.com javascript:
 Sent: May 8, 2013 8:03 AM
 To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes
 
 On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote:
  What actually is a Randonneur frame?
 
  Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it 
 more suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes - 
 fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?
 
 Think about the mission.
 
 You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't
 fatigue you because it rides roughly.  You can expect that the rider is
 going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're
 riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling
 that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive.
 
 You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through
 the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night.  In some
 places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range.  You
 can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can
 stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry
 the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day.
 More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have
 to carry bags of some kind.  The more accessible those bags are when
 you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a
 pair of sun glasses, for example) the better.
 
 On the longer rides you will have to ride at night.  That means you'll
 need a lighting system.  The really long rides will outlast the range of
 battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or
 will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries.
 
 Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country
 spring is a rainy season.  You can't skip out on a ride because it
 rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather.  The worst
 part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and
 to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also
 should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you.
 That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike
 should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them.
 
 All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit.  Time
 allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain.  Go too
 slow and you won't finish in time.  Also, the rides are typically in
 mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you
 can climb long, steep hills.
 
 Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do.
 Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises
 will be made.  In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so
 few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the
 rules to make them optional.  Some people do without them.
 
 
 
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 Visit this

Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

Re: 52mm Zeppelins over Honjos on a Homer. Took some fiddling but it is
possible, again some fiddling could mean 1 hour, could mean 1 day depending
on your handiness, def not an easy setup job but it comes out looking nice.
See picture in my Flikr feed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/7100748813/


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:56 PM, David Hays 23writ...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does anybody have any experience fitting the 52mm VO Zeppelin fenders to a
 Homer over 42mm Hetres?
 Thanks,
 David


 On May 8, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's
 but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.

 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I
 need some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit
 over 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm
 looking at either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over
 twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid
 disappointment but is there really that much of a difference between VO and
 Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks,
 Ojiisan


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[RBW] Biplane Fork for 1993 Bridgestone MB-1 Wanted

2013-05-08 Thread Brian Petrin

I'd been looking around for a nice MB-2 for some time, to go with my 1992 
RB-2, when I stumbled upon a 1993 MB-1 unused frame.  I drove 400 miles and 
bought it right away.  The story behind the frame is that it was supplied 
to somebody as a warranty frame.  This person returned it with the threads 
in the bottom bracket stripped a bit and insisted it be replaced, which the 
bike shop did.  The shop owner had the frame around for years and 
eventually gave it to his friend, from whom I purchased it.  He'd already 
had the bottom bracket issue fixed.  So this 18.5 frame is in perfect 
unused condition save for a couple of slight scratches.  I now have it 
carefully wrapped in a blanket in my home office, not in the garage, while 
I embark on rounding up the parts for an all original, if possible, build. 
 Which brings me to what I think will be the most challenging component, 
the Ritchey Crown CrMo biplane fork.  The color for the 1993 is Pearl Tusk 
and as stated the frame measures 18.5 inches center to center.  The head 
tube measures 4.5 inches.  

Also, if anybody has ideas on how I can go about rounding up NOS parts for 
this bike, please let me know.

Brian Petrin
425-417-8263

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

Damn, forgot about Boulder. Their 650b lugged offering is amazing looking.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Philip Williamson
philip.william...@gmail.com wrote:

Boulder http://renehersebicycles.com/ and Box
Doghttp://www.boxdogbikes.com/products-the-bdb-pelican/bikes both sell
off-the-peg randonneuses. Some older bikes are low trail
(my old Ross), or a used Kogswell, or re-raking a fork on an under-used
bike are some low-cost ways to try out the idea.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:53:22 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

I have never read BQ, but it is my understanding that they are
recommending a type of bike that isn't off the peg or readily available,
the Classic Randonneur so as pointed out on the Lovely Bicycle blog it
might be hard for a lot of us to make a comparison. Maybe the VO
Polyvalent?

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 11:41 AM, James Warren jimcw...@earthlink.netwrote:

Very thorough description. Describing the mission is a good way to
highlight a point that has already been made: Rivendells are designed for
riding that doesn't resemble that description. So comparing Rivendells to
BQ bikes is an apples/oranges thing.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Palincsar pali...@his.com
Sent: May 8, 2013 8:03 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 07:39 -0700, Michael wrote:
What actually is a Randonneur frame?

Meaning, what is it about its geometry and materials that makes it
more suited to this activity over other traditionally styled road bikes -
fenderability and tire width and ad- ons capability excluded?

Think about the mission.

You need a bike that's comfortable for long distance riding, that won't
fatigue you because it rides roughly. You can expect that the rider is
going to be tired and inattentive at some point (inevitable if you're
riding through the night) so you can't tolerate hair-trigger handling
that will get away from you if you're slow and inattentive.

You can expect to start at 7 am and, for the longer rides, ride through
the heat of the day, past sundown, and into the chill of night. In some
places, that can mean as much as a 25-30 degree temperature range. You
can't do that with a pair of arm warmers and leg warmers that you can
stick in a jersey pocket, so you're going to have to be able to carry
the clothing you needed when it was cold during the heat of the day.
More than you can stick in a jersey pocket means you're going to have
to carry bags of some kind. The more accessible those bags are when
you're riding (so you don't have to stop and park the bike to put on a
pair of sun glasses, for example) the better.

On the longer rides you will have to ride at night. That means you'll
need a lighting system. The really long rides will outlast the range of
battery-operated systems, so either you'll need to replace batteries or
will have to rely on bicycle-powered systems that don't need batteries.

Randonneuring is a spring-time sport, and in most areas of the country
spring is a rainy season. You can't skip out on a ride because it
rains, so the bike is going to have to go in bad weather. The worst
part about riding in the rain is getting chilled because you're wet, and
to deal with that you'll not only need suitable rain clothing, you also
should find a way to keep the worst of it, spray from the road, off you.
That means you'll need to mount fenders, and that in turn means the bike
should have the room to fit them and the attachment points to fit them.

All that said, it's a sport that is run against a time limit. Time
allowed is based on distance, with no consideration for terrain. Go too
slow and you won't finish in time. Also, the rides are typically in
mountainous country, so the bike is going to have to be set up so you
can climb long, steep hills.

Basically, any bike that can meet those functional requirements will do.
Many bikes can't meet them all but can do some, and often compromises
will be made. In fact, the rules used to mandate fenders but since so
few bicycles made recently can actually fit fenders, they relaxed the
rules to make them optional. Some people do without them.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**
group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-**UShttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US
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Re: [RBW] Biplane Fork for 1993 Bridgestone MB-1 Wanted

2013-05-08 Thread Tim Gavin

Nice find!

I found this discussion (from 2008, but old bike dudes are still old) about
a fellow who broke the fork on his tusk MB-1. You may be able to track
someone down.

http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/ritchey-bi-plane-fork-repair-rebuild-anyone-interested-474327.html

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Brian Petrin petri...@gmail.com wrote:

I'd been looking around for a nice MB-2 for some time, to go with my 1992
RB-2, when I stumbled upon a 1993 MB-1 unused frame. I drove 400 miles and
bought it right away. The story behind the frame is that it was supplied
to somebody as a warranty frame. This person returned it with the threads
in the bottom bracket stripped a bit and insisted it be replaced, which the
bike shop did. The shop owner had the frame around for years and
eventually gave it to his friend, from whom I purchased it. He'd already
had the bottom bracket issue fixed. So this 18.5 frame is in perfect
unused condition save for a couple of slight scratches. I now have it
carefully wrapped in a blanket in my home office, not in the garage, while
I embark on rounding up the parts for an all original, if possible, build.
Which brings me to what I think will be the most challenging component,
the Ritchey Crown CrMo biplane fork. The color for the 1993 is Pearl Tusk
and as stated the frame measures 18.5 inches center to center. The head
tube measures 4.5 inches.

Also, if anybody has ideas on how I can go about rounding up NOS parts for
this bike, please let me know.

Brian Petrin
425-417-8263

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 13:12 -0700, Philip Williamson wrote:
 This excellent summation of a randonneur bike's mission also describes
 a commute bike's mission. You need to get yourself and some gear to a
 destination, on time. A commuter (this one, anyway), may get a
 randonneur's five hour feeling at the 40 minute mark.  

Of course, the load will be different -- at least, mine was: I carried
work clothes, shoes, etc. in two small panniers, around 13 lb weight (my
shoes were heavy!) and lunch in a handle bar bag.  With tools and spare
tubes that brought the load up to almost 20 lb.  That's about twice the
load you'd expect to carry on the randonneur, especially when you figure
in the weight of the panniers and the rack to carry them.

I realize all commutes are not the same.  Many people commute wearing
the clothes they will wear at work.  Also distances vary.  The urban
commuter's route may be much shorter and may have many frequent stops at
traffic lights and stop signs compared to someone riding in to work from
the suburbs.  

The number of stops may influence the choice of drive train.  An IGH
makes a lot of sense for a short distance urban commute with plenty of
stops, some abrupt enough you'll need to shift while stopped; much less
sense for a brevet, where you wouldn't expect to stop more often than at
20-30 mile intervals, if even that often.

It might also influence riding position.  Riding a bicycle with a suit
jacket on works fine with an upright bar like the North Road or the
Albatross, but it doesn't work at all well with drop bars.

If you're trying to optimize the bike for a particular mission, you do
have to pick that mission apart and analyze it in detail, and it will
drive design choices.  If you want maximum versatility, you may have to
choose configurations that will sub-optimal for some missions, maybe
even marginal to poor for others.

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RE: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

VO even has a 58mm version of its 650B fenders now.  Smooth only, though.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Morgano
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 4:17 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

I have had both Honjos and VO's. The Velo Orange are a great deal comparatively 
speaking and like Alex said come pre-drilled. I know it has been said that some 
VO fenders only have one Daruma attachment on the rear but the 52mm Zeppelins 
def have two just like Honjos. Back in the day VO didn't have a hammered option 
so I got the Honjos but VO has expanded their collection significantly and I 
cant see spending the extra on Honjos unless you need a size VO doesn't offer.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Alex Zeibot 
veloban...@gmail.commailto:veloban...@gmail.com wrote:
To add, VO fenders are pre-drilled as contrasted to the Honjos that gives me 
more convenience and headache free installation.  Can't speak for Berthouds as 
I never had them.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Minh 
mgiangs...@gmail.commailto:mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:
Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's but 
have never gotten over the big price difference myself.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are slightly 
thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:
This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need some 
fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 700x32c tires. 
I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at either VO fenders or 
Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather 
pay for quality to avoid disappointment but is there really that much of a 
difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might 
consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan
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Re: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

2013-05-08 Thread Minh

Kieran,

Let us know on the actual measurements, i did not see that these measure so
much smaller then labeled.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 3:05:28 PM UTC-4, Kieran J wrote:

Yeah, will probably go without fenders for this one. I have other fendered
bikes for poor weather riding.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:12:42 PM UTC-4, Larry Powers wrote:

Without fenders the Jack browns would probably be a great choice.

Larry Powers

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain

--
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 15:39:12 -0700
From: kjo...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Hi all,

New Riv owner, long time lurker.

Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all
the parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.

However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would
fit on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some
~32mm light duty gumwall tires lying around?

I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the
Challenge Eroica.

And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to
change the bar tape- maybe pale blue?

Cheers,

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SEAW5zsehOk/UYmCLP67OAI/ADI/1Ji5shM3Cfg/s1600/IMG_1947.JPG
Kieran

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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread Minh

on the VO daruma at the fender stay issue, i think i saw back that VO 
started offering dual daruma.  but to be honest i've been happy with my 
single daruma, and the berthoud (which use two affixing points) is more 
secure but not hugely so.  


On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 4:34:41 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:

  VO even has a 58mm version of its 650B fenders now.  Smooth only, though.

  

 *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *Peter Morgano
 *Sent:* Wednesday, May 08, 2013 4:17 PM
 *To:* rbw-owners-bunch
 *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

  
  
 I have had both Honjos and VO's. The Velo Orange are a great deal 
 comparatively speaking and like Alex said come pre-drilled. I know it has 
 been said that some VO fenders only have one Daruma attachment on the rear 
 but the 52mm Zeppelins def have two just like Honjos. Back in the day VO 
 didn't have a hammered option so I got the Honjos but VO has expanded their 
 collection significantly and I cant see spending the extra on Honjos unless 
 you need a size VO doesn't offer. 
  
  
  
 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Alex Zeibot velob...@gmail.comjavascript: 
 wrote:
  
 To add, VO fenders are pre-drilled as contrasted to the Honjos that gives 
 me more convenience and headache free installation.  Can't speak for 
 Berthouds as I never had them.
   
  
  
 On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Minh mgian...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's 
 but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.
  


 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are 
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.  

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I need 
 some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit over 
 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm looking at 
 either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over twice the price 
 of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid disappointment but is there 
 really that much of a difference between VO and Honjo fenders? Is there 
 another fender make I might consider? Many thanks, Ojiisan

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[RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

2013-05-08 Thread Mark Fredrickson



On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 11:24:59 AM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 Thanks folks, This makes me less suspicious about VO fenders and unless I 
 get some bad feed back or dire warning about VO fenders I'm sorta leaning 
 toward them... Here are a few other thoughts I've had re. fenders: I like 
 the look of the smooth fenders but now I'm thinking the hammered texture 
 will camouflage minor dings and dents if and when they happen. Never having 
 fenders before, are smooth aluminum fenders easily dented? Are hammered, 
 fluted and smooth simply a style or look or are there some practical or 
 structural reasons for smooth, fluted and hammered fenders?  Ojii


My smooth, satin finish VOs got pretty scratched up. I think your idea 
regarding the hammered fenders hiding such imperfections is a smart one. 

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Re: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

2013-05-08 Thread James Warren

Kieren,Despite the word on the street, I'll let you know that for me, the Ram with Jack Brown Greeen 700x 33.333 is just the bee's knee's.I have a lot of nice bikes, and the Ram, so equipped, keeps coming back to being my favorite of them. It's a 64 cm frame and I'm about 225 lbs. I have the handlebar about 2 centimeters lower than seat height.Your tire choice sounds good. I've considered trying some 700x30's on my Ram, but my results have been so nice for over five years now that I always stick with the Jack Browns.Enjoy the bike. It sounds like it should be pretty similar to mine. I use mine for long day rides and for metric centuries and for metric centuries like Levi's Fondo that goes on Willow Creek dirt road and for other rides with fire road options. I have also used it for two-night overnighters when I'm not bringing any cooking gear. For that purpose, I've put the Atlantis's rear wheel on the Ram and mainly loaded the rear with a rack and also used a very small handlebar bag. Such mini-tours on the Ram are excellent. I put on the Atlantis rear wheel with its extra spokes and 135 mm rear width. The Ram's rear spacing of 132.5 mm is wonderful for such versatility. (It's everyday "road" rear wheel is 130 mm with 32 spokes. Also, the Atlantis and Ram were both set up with identical Shimano 9-speed cassettes so that I could do this wheel-lending.) Also, about a quarter of my daily commutes are on the Ram. All of the above uses have been optimized through use of the Jack Brown Green tire. It's an outstanding bike.-Jim-Original Message-
From: Kieran J 
Sent: May 8, 2013 12:05 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Yeah, will probably go without fenders for this one. I have other fendered bikes for poor weather riding.Going to try the Resist Nomad 700x35 (31 actual) to start. Cheap enough to try 'em out for fun. I've heard people say that the Ram is most stable (or, was meant for) 700x28's, but I can't say no to that wasted bit of clearance...KJOn Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:12:42 PM UTC-4, Larry Powers wrote:

After nearly 10 years of riding a Rambouillet I have found that with fenders the bike is built for 28mm tires. Yes I did get slightly bigger tires on for awhile, Grand Bois 30mm, but everything had to be just right. I am feeding mine a steady diet of Ruffy Tuffy tires.Without fenders the Jack browns would probably be a great choice.Larry Powers 

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark TwainDate: Tue, 7 May 2013 15:39:12 -0700From: kjo...@gmail.comTo: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comSubject: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!Hi all,New Riv owner, long time lurker.Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all the parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would fit on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some ~32mm light duty gumwall tires lying around?I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the Challenge Eroica.And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to change the bar tape- maybe pale blue?Cheers,Kieran

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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

Hi David,
Yes, I did have the experience with installing Zeppelins for Hetres on 650b
specific bike.  It took me some time like Peter pointed out but it came out
perfectly, beyond my expectations.  You should not have any issues with the
installation as long as you have plenty time on your hands as well the
patience.
Here are the pics to prove:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/62147285@N02/sets/72157633451429920/


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:56 PM, David Hays 23writ...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does anybody have any experience fitting the 52mm VO Zeppelin fenders to a
 Homer over 42mm Hetres?
 Thanks,
 David


 On May 8, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.  Have VO and Berthoud, VO are a great value.  I love the Honjo's
 but have never gotten over the big price difference myself.

 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:35:35 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

 Honjo fenders use 4mm rods, VO fenders use 5mm rods, VO fenders are
 slightly thicker.  The VO fenders are a bargain on a great product.

 On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:43:38 PM UTC-5, Ojiisan wrote:

 This has probably been covered already someplace on this group but I
 need some fender advice. I've decided to get some 45mm fenders to fit
 over 700x32c tires. I'm leaning toward smooth aluminum type. I'm
 looking at either VO fenders or Honjo fenders. Honjo fenders are over
 twice the price of the VOs. I'd rather pay for quality to avoid
 disappointment but is there really that much of a difference between VO and
 Honjo fenders? Is there another fender make I might consider? Many thanks,
 Ojiisan


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[RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Brewster Fong


On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 7:00:05 PM UTC-7, samh wrote: 

 I was fascinated by the discussion here: 


 http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/02/choosing-your-gospel-rivendell-vs.html

One difference between Riv and BQ that I may have missed is their 
preference in handlebar width. Grant/Riv likes them wide like 46cm or even 
48cm. In contrast, Jan H appears to like them narrower like 38-40cm. Could 
be body difference, but I'm not that clear on why. 
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: More fender advice needed

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 16:25 -0500, Alex Zeibot wrote:
 Hi David,
 Yes, I did have the experience with installing Zeppelins for Hetres on
 650b specific bike.  It took me some time like Peter pointed out but
 it came out perfectly, beyond my expectations.  You should not have
 any issues with the installation as long as you have plenty time on
 your hands as well the patience.
 Here are the pics to
 prove: http://www.flickr.com/photos/62147285@N02/sets/72157633451429920/
 


Marvelous job.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 14:29 -0700, Brewster Fong wrote:
 One difference between Riv and BQ that I may have missed is their
 preference in handlebar width. Grant/Riv likes them wide like 46cm or
 even 48cm. In contrast, Jan H appears to like them narrower like
 38-40cm. Could be body difference, but I'm not that clear on why.   

Jan has pointed out that handlebar width has changed over time,
correlated with changes in trail, while body width remained fairly
constant over time.  Higher trail works better with wider bars, lower
trail with narrower bars.

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[RBW] Re: Mounting a Dyno Light on a Nitto Mini Front Rack with a Basket?

2013-05-08 Thread John Philip

Here's how I did it. 
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/cnyriv/8721851272/in/photostream/lightbox/
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:06:30 PM UTC-4, Rick Houston wrote:

 Going to finally put my wife's Betty Foy together, and she wants the front 
 rack she previously had mounted on her Quickbeam installed on the Betty; 
 she has a Wald basket mounted on it, and now I'm wondering where the best 
 place would be to mount the dyno light we bought. Any ideas? Thanks for 
 your thoughts!

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[RBW] May Spring Ride with Rain, Snell, Snow, and Abandon

2013-05-08 Thread Deacon Patrick

Woke up feeling great this morning, looked out to see rain and heavy clouds and 
temp at 32˚F. Naturally I grabbed my gear and headed out!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/sets/72157633435488285/

With abandon,
Patrick

www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
www.OurHolyConception.org

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[RBW] Re: Looking for Velo Orange Crank FS

2013-05-08 Thread Matt Gilkey

Hello,
 
I posted this one for sale if that is what you are looking for. It is still 
available. 
 
Velo Orange Grand Cru 50.4 bcd Crank set (Version 1) 46-30 $75.00 (I found 
the second dust cap).
*
https://plus.google.com/photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201#photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201
*https://plus.google.com/photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201#photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201

-Matt

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Re: [RBW] Re: Association of Caffeinated Wheelmen lapel pin UPDATE

2013-05-08 Thread Benedikt

Did the store ever get built? 

If you build it they will come.  :)

- Brian

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:19:05 AM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:

 They are due today or tomorrow actually!! I am building a store and will 
 post a link when it's ready.

 On Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:48:24 AM UTC-6, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 Whatever happened to the pins?



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread VeloZen

I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, as well as the right to 
express it in a peaceful fashion.  But I can't help asking ... why would 
someone who so blatantly feels all Rivendell frames are designed wrong 
spend so much time hanging out and chatting with the RBW Owner's Bunch?  I 
just can't imagine wanting to involve myself in discussion group where the 
focal point is something I totally disagree with ... unless, of course, I'm 
simply looking for an argument.

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[RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Jan Heine

I think there is less difference between Grant's ideas and *Bicycle 
Quarterly* than many surmise. We both want versatile and durable bikes that 
are fun to ride and look nice. Whether it's a fully integrated 650B 
randonneur bike or a Homer Hilsen, both machines allow you to ride in 
places where 99% of commercially available bikes will be compromised.

From a technical perspective, I also agree more with Grant than most people 
realize. Grant's vision is a versatile, affordable bike, which can be 
modified to suit. If you want plastic fenders one year, wooden fenders the 
next, a front rack today and a rear rack tomorrow, then Grant's designs 
provide a platform that can handle it all. It's sort of like a 
separate-frame 1950s car, which can be equipped with a sports car body, a 
convertible body, a sedan body or a pickup body, all on the same chassis. 
Grant's bikes can do that. They can be ridden by a variety of riders, 
equipped with a variety of tire sizes. They are a modular platform for 
experimentation. They don't lock you into a single way of riding, like a 
narrow-tire racing bike would.

Compared to the 1950s car, a modern car's body is load-bearing, so you 
can't change it easily. The suspension is designed for a certain tire size, 
so you shouldn't put on wider tires or bigger wheels without changing the 
setup. Even the seats are specific, and putting in different ones would be 
difficult. The fully integrated constructeur bike is similar. It is 
optimized for a certain rider, a certain tire size, a certain load and even 
a certain fender style. 

The integrated design still can be very versatile – you can take a modern 
BMW M3 on a race track or commute in it to work. Our second tester Mark has 
ridden his 650B randonneur bike in brevets, commuting, in pacelines with 
racers, and on camping tours. The difference is that you achieve that 
versatility within its original design. Mark's bike works well with a 
handlebar bag and front low-riders, but a rear rack would not work well at 
all. His bike handles with precision under a rider who has a light touch on 
the handlebars, but would not work for somebody who grips the bars with 
more force. Its geometry is optimized for 40 mm tires, but with 32s, it 
wouldn't be so much fun. On the plus side, its performance is superior to 
that of the adaptable design, which by definition cannot be optimized for 
a single setup. On the down side, a constructeur bike is much more 
expensive, because everything has to be designed specifically for the bike.

So it's really about choice: If you want something that is affordable and 
can grow with you as you experiment with new ways of riding and new ways of 
setting up your bike, then a Rivendell is an excellent choice. If you are 
an experienced rider and know what you want, and you ride enough that the 
high cost of a constructeur bike will amortize itself, then the 
constructeur machine offers a performance that is without equal.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at www.janheine.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

Right for you. Not right for everyone else.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 12:14 -0700, William wrote:
  So no, I wasn't predisposed to agree with Jan; I was predisposed to
  agree with Grant.  Experience taught me that Jan was right. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Of course you don't mean that Jan was objectively right, and by
  extension that Grant was/is objectively wrong.  You mean that
  subjectively, for you and the riding and characteristics you have
  evolved to prefer, Jan was right.
 

 When on one bike I can easily power up a small grade and on the other I
 have to downshift downshift downshift we are beyond the realm of the
 subjective, and are firmly in objective territory.

 So yes I do mean Jan was objectively right.



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http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

Another generalization from particular experiences. I like narrow bars on
my Rivendells. To put it in the language of this debate, narrower bars
work better with higher trail.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:


 Higher trail works better with wider bars, lower
 trail with narrower bars.

 --

http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 16:42 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
 Right for you. Not right for everyone else.

Nobody ever said everyone else.  I sure didn't.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

Another false generalization from particular experience.

If you are an experienced rider and know what you want, and you ride
enough that the high cost of a constructeur bike will amortize itself, then
the constructeur machine offers a performance that is without equal.


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[RBW] Re: Biplane Fork for 1993 Bridgestone MB-1 Wanted

2013-05-08 Thread Joe Bernard

There's plenty of Suntour XC Pro stuff on Ebay, but personally I would lean 
more towards a period build than an absolutely accurate OEM. 
retrobike.co.uk will give you a good idea of this type of thing. Beware, 
though: That site will turn you into a maniac for rare and expensive '90s 
CNC parts. ;)

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 10:30:52 AM UTC-7, Brian Petrin wrote:

 I'd been looking around for a nice MB-2 for some time, to go with my 1992 
 RB-2, when I stumbled upon a 1993 MB-1 unused frame.  I drove 400 miles and 
 bought it right away.  The story behind the frame is that it was supplied 
 to somebody as a warranty frame.  This person returned it with the threads 
 in the bottom bracket stripped a bit and insisted it be replaced, which the 
 bike shop did.  The shop owner had the frame around for years and 
 eventually gave it to his friend, from whom I purchased it.  He'd already 
 had the bottom bracket issue fixed.  So this 18.5 frame is in perfect 
 unused condition save for a couple of slight scratches.  I now have it 
 carefully wrapped in a blanket in my home office, not in the garage, while 
 I embark on rounding up the parts for an all original, if possible, build. 
  Which brings me to what I think will be the most challenging component, 
 the Ritchey Crown CrMo biplane fork.  The color for the 1993 is Pearl Tusk 
 and as stated the frame measures 18.5 inches center to center.  The head 
 tube measures 4.5 inches.  

 Also, if anybody has ideas on how I can go about rounding up NOS parts for 
 this bike, please let me know.

 Brian Petrin
 425-417-8263


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Re: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Do some Rams have more clearance than others? I haven't tried fenders yet,
but on my 58 there is surely a lot of gap over 35 mm tires:

https://picasaweb.google.com/BERTIN753/RAMBOUILLETFINALLYBUILT040613#5863925294024508226

https://picasaweb.google.com/BERTIN753/RAMBOUILLETFINALLYBUILT040613#5863925386730853778

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Larry Powers lapower...@hotmail.comwrote:

Without fenders the Jack browns would probably be a great choice.

Larry Powers

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain

--
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 15:39:12 -0700
From: kjo...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] New-to-me Ram - Need tires!

Hi all,

New Riv owner, long time lurker.

Received and built up a 66cm Rambouillet today (Thanks Ryan!). Moved all
the parts over from my old ride, and things are feeling good.

However, I'm still running the 25mm Bontrager slicks. It's all that would
fit on the Trek 710 that's now up for grabs. Anyone out there got some
~32mm light duty gumwall tires lying around?

I'm talking Jack Brown Greens, Grand Bois Cypres 30's or maybe even the
Challenge Eroica.

And sorry about the loud colour palette in the photo. Yes, I promise to
change the bar tape- maybe pale blue?

Cheers,

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SEAW5zsehOk/UYmCLP67OAI/ADI/1Ji5shM3Cfg/s1600/IMG_1947.JPG
Kieran

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http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

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[RBW] Re: Biplane Fork for 1993 Bridgestone MB-1 Wanted

2013-05-08 Thread William

The 1993 MB1 wasn't XC Pro, though, but the 1992 was.  The 1993 had Deore 
XT derailers and shifters and rear hub.  It had a swank 28 hole ultegra 
hubbed front wheel.  Ritchey(Sugino) cranks, Ritchey(Nitto) seatpost, 
Ritchey(Dia Compe) brakes, Ritchey(Panaracer) tires.  Sheldon has the 
catalog of course (AASHTA)

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 3:51:04 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

 There's plenty of Suntour XC Pro stuff on Ebay, but personally I would 
 lean more towards a period build than an absolutely accurate OEM. 
 retrobike.co.uk will give you a good idea of this type of thing. Beware, 
 though: That site will turn you into a maniac for rare and expensive '90s 
 CNC parts. ;)

 On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 10:30:52 AM UTC-7, Brian Petrin wrote:

 I'd been looking around for a nice MB-2 for some time, to go with my 1992 
 RB-2, when I stumbled upon a 1993 MB-1 unused frame.  I drove 400 miles and 
 bought it right away.  The story behind the frame is that it was supplied 
 to somebody as a warranty frame.  This person returned it with the threads 
 in the bottom bracket stripped a bit and insisted it be replaced, which the 
 bike shop did.  The shop owner had the frame around for years and 
 eventually gave it to his friend, from whom I purchased it.  He'd already 
 had the bottom bracket issue fixed.  So this 18.5 frame is in perfect 
 unused condition save for a couple of slight scratches.  I now have it 
 carefully wrapped in a blanket in my home office, not in the garage, while 
 I embark on rounding up the parts for an all original, if possible, build. 
  Which brings me to what I think will be the most challenging component, 
 the Ritchey Crown CrMo biplane fork.  The color for the 1993 is Pearl Tusk 
 and as stated the frame measures 18.5 inches center to center.  The head 
 tube measures 4.5 inches.  

 Also, if anybody has ideas on how I can go about rounding up NOS parts 
 for this bike, please let me know.

 Brian Petrin
 425-417-8263



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Re: [RBW] Re: Looking for Velo Orange Crank FS

2013-05-08 Thread Eric Norris

Matt:

Thanks for the link to the photos. I'd be setting this up with just the large
chainring, and I think this particular crankset wouldn't look right without the
small ring. I'll have to pass, but good luck sellinng it!

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On May 8, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Matt Gilkey mgilke...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

I posted this one for sale if that is what you are looking for. It is still
available.

Velo Orange Grand Cru 50.4 bcd Crank set (Version 1) 46-30 $75.00 (I found
the second dust cap).
https://plus.google.com/photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201#photos/116766706625339314401/albums/5873072009263809201

-Matt
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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 16:48 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
 Another false generalization from particular experience. 

Actually I think the problem is simply the omission of the phrase and
what you want is the sort of thing the constructeur bike offers
inserted between want, and and in the first sentence.


 If you are an experienced rider and know what you want, and you ride
 enough that the high cost of a constructeur bike will amortize itself,
 then the constructeur machine offers a performance that is without
 equal.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

2013-05-08 Thread Tim McNamara

Summing up the thread neatly, it was written:

 I tend to waffle between Grant's and Jan's viewpoints on bicycles. 

Jan and Grant have both stated numerous times that the differences between them 
are greatly exaggerated.  When I compare Rivendell to BQ to Trek to Cannondale 
to Blue to Kestrel... Well, then the differences between Jan and Grant shrink 
tremendously.  IMHO anyway.

Says the guy who rides a self-built 3 speed road bike with a Carradice Nelson 
some of the time, and whose Rivendell All-Rounder has fenders, dynamo lighting, 
559 x 32 tires and a Nitto Mini front rack with a Berthoud Mini 86 bag.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes

That is very correct. It may well be that Jan's preferred bikes are best
for randonees -- I don't know that, and it may well be that some educated
randoneurs prefer the qualities of Rivendell style bikes or racing bikes or
whatever else for the same riding. But I do know that Rivendells -- to take
one example -- have very definite positive qualities that derive from their
design and construction (I am being deliberately general) because I have
experienced them. In particular, the elusive (from my experience of
different bikes) combination of stability at speed with -- metaphor --
unerring turn-in quality. Now perhaps this would be a liability at mile
400 of a long ride, but it is most definitely not a liability for the short
distance riding some of us prefer.

Again: a frame that can take 622 wheels with 3 tires. Doubtless there are
compromises, but one on the plus side is the way tall and fat tires ride
over sand. This I've tested with tires of up to 65 mm actual width -- and
am saving pennies for Knards or like.

Again: I've not ridden a porteur -- must ride Ryan's as well as his new
Boulder. But I know that some bikes exhibit a wonderful unladen ride and
yet handle 40 lb on a light rear rack with pleasurable -- pleasurable,
repeated -- aplomb. That is a combination that has its merits for some.

I apologize for being tetchy, and, second admission, I know I have my own
preferences and even biases. But I do know enough to know that what I know
is limited and to draw only reserved conclusions therefrom.

I really must ride Ryan's bikes.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 16:48 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
  Another false generalization from particular experience.

 Actually I think the problem is simply the omission of the phrase and
 what you want is the sort of thing the constructeur bike offers
 inserted between want, and and in the first sentence.


  If you are an experienced rider and know what you want, and you ride
  enough that the high cost of a constructeur bike will amortize itself,
  then the constructeur machine offers a performance that is without
  equal.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting discussion: Riv bikes v. BQ bikes