subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Can we talk about long wheelbases\?"

Yeah, that's pretty silly. The Long Chainstay Question here on RBW is like 
The Planing Question over on iBOB--comes up every 6 months or year or so, 
the same people post the same stuff they posted last time, then we move on 
to Why Does/Doesn't Rivendell ?

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 2:51:07 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I don't think long stays are saving Grant money. That's trolling. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Yeah, that's pretty silly.
The Long Chainstay Question is kinda like The Planing Question over on
iBOB. It comes up every 6 months or a year or so, everyone chimes in, says
the same stuff they said last time, then we move on to Why Doesn't
Rivendell __  any more?


On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 2:51 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I don't think long stays are saving Grant money. That's trolling.
>
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>


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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread S

I have no doubt that Clems, etc, ride great and that riders adapt to 
whatever bike they have, and so on. 

Apologies if this has been linked already, but, in case anyone missed it, 
here's Grant's post about longer chain stays, schooners, bumps, 
skyscrapers: 
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/why-the-long-stays-chainstay-length

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread Garth

She likes it , hey Leah !  

This reminds of the 70's Life cereal commercial in which 2 boys are given a 
new cereal to try that's "supposed" to be good for them . Neither wants to 
try it the "new" stuff, so they give it to their younger brother Mikey to 
see what happens.

Here's the commercial, if anyone is paranoid don't dare click on it as your 
computer will surely instantly implode. For the rest of us it's a youtube 
link of the commercial.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgB25WBeBxA

Mikey just eats it without question, it is a kids cereal after all and they 
don't make bad kids cereals. 

  On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 3:28:35 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding 
Ding! wrote:

> I feel like I can kind of chime in here now and say a thing or two about 
> the new Clem geometry. It’s grown on me. It feels stable and comfortable 
> but not fast. I always think I’m not going to be able to make the corners 
> but the bike always does it with no trouble. It’s my own mind that is the 
> inhibitor. I like how I feel on my Clem now, the fit has somehow become 
> normal. And I got my bike rack adjusted to take the Clem so I feel like I’m 
> settled. I have to be mindful backing the bike up - it’s s long, but 
> it’s otherwise a peach!

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

I feel like I can kind of chime in here now and say a thing or two about the 
new Clem geometry. It’s grown on me. It feels stable and comfortable but not 
fast. I always think I’m not going to be able to make the corners but the bike 
always does it with no trouble. It’s my own mind that is the inhibitor. I like 
how I feel on my Clem now, the fit has somehow become normal. And I got my bike 
rack adjusted to take the Clem so I feel like I’m settled. I have to be mindful 
backing the bike up - it’s s long, but it’s otherwise a peach!

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread S

I don't think it's gimmicky. Grant and Co. do most of their riding in the 
hills, usually with fairly heavy loads, and I can see why they gravitated 
toward longer, stouter bikes. But, like you, I am skeptical of the 
advantages of super long stays. Longer is better to a point, sure, but I 
wonder if that point has been passed in some cases. And I wish the model 
line-up had more variety. There's a lot of overlap. I think sportier bikes 
have their place.  

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 10:58:51 AM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:
>
> Well, I want to like Long chainstays and long wheelbases; I REALLY REALLY 
>> do, but honestly I don't think the benefits are really there.
>
>
> More comfortable? More stable?  Was I uncomfortable or unstable before? No 
> not really.
>  There's far more downsides than up.
> The comfort is provided via a flexier frame, don't think a frame has to be 
> super stiff and some flex can be a good thing. bu there will be power loss 
> on a big flexy, heavy bike.
> Stability? My Clementine isn't any more stable then any other bike and I 
> find I've got to slow much more for tightish turns so I don't overshoot the 
> apex and land in a bush.
> In the meantime you've got a much heavier bike (let's face it this is not 
> Columbus SL tubing) and unnecessary weight is never a good thing. the main 
> advantage of this design is nobody's going to compare the weight of your 
> bike with another bike of similar dimensions, because there aren't any. So 
> if you use a slightly cheaper/heavier tubing nobody can bust you on it.
>
> Basically, I am not opposed to longer stay's or long wheel bases 
> necessarily, I just want to understand how these dimensions are arrived at? 
> what is merely long and what is too long? On the Clem's and My Clementine 
> it almost seems like a cost saving measure that's sold as some sort of 
> advantage?  The chain stays are pretty much straight! Not having to bend 
> those is probably cheaper!? And like I said tubing doesn't have to be that 
> great, it's understood it's going to be a heavy bike.
>
> I think it's an unfortunate Gimmicky fad and I am ready for it to be over. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread Joe Bernard

I don't think long stays are saving Grant money. That's trolling. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread masmojo

>
> Well, I want to like Long chainstays and long wheelbases; I REALLY REALLY
> do, but honestly I don't think the benefits are really there.

More comfortable? More stable? Was I uncomfortable or unstable before? No
not really.
There's far more downsides than up.
The comfort is provided via a flexier frame, don't think a frame has to be
super stiff and some flex can be a good thing. bu there will be power loss
on a big flexy, heavy bike.
Stability? My Clementine isn't any more stable then any other bike and I
find I've got to slow much more for tightish turns so I don't overshoot the
apex and land in a bush.
In the meantime you've got a much heavier bike (let's face it this is not
Columbus SL tubing) and unnecessary weight is never a good thing. the main
advantage of this design is nobody's going to compare the weight of your
bike with another bike of similar dimensions, because there aren't any. So
if you use a slightly cheaper/heavier tubing nobody can bust you on it.

Basically, I am not opposed to longer stay's or long wheel bases
necessarily, I just want to understand how these dimensions are arrived at?
what is merely long and what is too long? On the Clem's and My Clementine
it almost seems like a cost saving measure that's sold as some sort of
advantage? The chain stays are pretty much straight! Not having to bend
those is probably cheaper!? And like I said tubing doesn't have to be that
great, it's understood it's going to be a heavy bike.

I think it's an unfortunate Gimmicky fad and I am ready for it to be over.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-02-01 Thread S

I could have been clearer in what I wrote earlier. To begin, my original 
post in this thread, now deleted, was an attempt to find objective reasons 
for avoiding extra long chain stays. To flip the problem, short stays have 
obvious disadvantages -- reduced tire clearance, feet hitting panniers, 
sometimes kludgy looking chainstay-BB interface, harsher ride, etc. I was 
just wondering where the limits lie in the opposite direction. 

I understand why Grant P. likes longer chain stays and I didn't mean to 
imply that boat-like handling is a flaw. For instance, if I were going 
bikepacking, I would choose a bike like the Appaloosa. For my more usual 
mode of riding, however, less than a day, fairly lightly loaded, I prefer 
sportier handling. With a longer wheelbase bike, I feel as if I am guiding 
the bike, I have to think about the rear wheel, I am aware of it trailing 
behind, whereas with a shorter wheelbase, I forget the bike almost 
entirely, I feel as if I am inside it, part of it, rather than on top of 
it. As I wrote, purely a feel thing.  

To put it another way, I think longer wheelbases make sense for heavy 
touring or mountain bikes, but not necessarily for all types of bikes, eg, 
the AHH, which is supposed to be an all-arounder and now has stays of 475+. 

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:47:38 AM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:

> I think the "boaty" feel is an objective of the design, not a bug. I'm not 
> sure if boats were mentioned in any of the posts Grant did on his reasoning 
> for the benefits of long stays, but I do remember station wagons and surf 
> boards, I think. One obvious benefit is a smoother ride. That's why my 
> stoker seatpost has a built in shock, because that rider is closer to the 
> rear wheel. For me, the handling of, say, a Big Dummy, is different that my 
> Ron Kitching, is different than my Clem, is different than my Trek 830 or 
> rSogn or L'Avecaise or what have you, sure. But if all my bikes handled the 
> same, I wouldn't need all my bikes;^) I don't see Grant or Rivendell 
> designing a bicycle that could be labeled "poor-handling" by anyone's 
> metrics (and you didn't say that). Different than what a lot of people are 
> used to? Yup. Not everyone's cup of tea? Sure, if they give it a try (I 
> like a 100-day trial for most stuff) and it doesn't float their boat--or, I 
> guess, in this case if it does.
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Although, some people believe that our whole universe could be a speck of 
dust on some other universe. Or that a speck of dust in our universe could 
contain a whole universe. In that case, there would be a lot of existence 
going on in a vacuum.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 5:15:46 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
>
>
> No existence existing exists in a vacuum, a-part-from or other than 
> "Existence Itself" .  
>
> Indivisibility 
>
> A bicycle or any identification/identity does not and cannot exist 
> independently from the Life in/as which Existences Exist-ness Exists. 
>
>  "Existence Itself" is All there/that Exists. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Thanks for being more specific about why you don't like chainstay lengths 
over about 46.5cm. I agree no need to try to measure data scientifically. 
Regarding "all rounder", that designation to me denotes a kind of 
recreational bicycle that handles paved road and dirt road in a sporty 
"performance-oriented" way, like the early Riv 26" bikes and the X0 series 
from Bridgestone. I see most of the Riv models with extreme chainstay 
lengths as bikes that are great for rides that don't require a perceived 
"performance" metric. So great for shopping, commuting, basic trail riding. 
Not to say you can't have a bicycle that does these things and is also 
oriented toward "sporty performance'--plenty of people do these things on a 
fixed gear with 25mm tires and 40cm chainstays. (And for what it's worth, I 
find the Clem quite sporty and fun, just different sporty and fun.)

I think the "boaty" feel is an objective of the design, not a bug. I'm not 
sure if boats were mentioned in any of the posts Grant did on his reasoning 
for the benefits of long stays, but I do remember station wagons and surf 
boards, I think. One obvious benefit is a smoother ride. That's why my 
stoker seatpost has a built in shock, because that rider is closer to the 
rear wheel. For me, the handling of, say, a Big Dummy, is different that my 
Ron Kitching, is different than my Clem, is different than my Trek 830 or 
rSogn or L'Avecaise or what have you, sure. But if all my bikes handled the 
same, I wouldn't need all my bikes;^) I don't see Grant or Rivendell 
designing a bicycle that could be labeled "poor-handling" by anyone's 
metrics (and you didn't say that). Different than what a lot of people are 
used to? Yup. Not everyone's cup of tea? Sure, if they give it a try (I 
like a 100-day trial for most stuff) and it doesn't float their boat--or, I 
guess, in this case if it does.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 7:50:55 PM UTC-5, Jason Fuller wrote:
>
> I think it was pretty clear based on context that 465mm is my approximate 
> / estimated "upper limit" based on the equilibrium of the various 
> trade-offs. I also prefaced that this is for an "all rounder" type bike 
> specifically, and that it's approximate because there are a lot of other 
> geometry / build factors that come into play, such as BB height, seat tube 
> angle, etc. 
>
> It's based on my experience over 30 years of being a bike nerd and owning 
> more bikes than I can count, although my experience on long-stay bikes is a 
> shorter list.  I don't see any pay-off after ~46cm stays - it's as stable 
> as I could want, as comfortable as I could expect, and going longer makes 
> it less maneuverable and does tend to feel more sluggish (not scientific, 
> but you can feel it, and that's more important IMO)
>
> On Friday, 31 January 2020 13:55:51 UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>> Again, why do you believe this? Why do you pick 46.5? I ask because I 
>> find it puzzling that these kinds of statements get made but with no 
>> explanation as to why, not even anecdotal experiences. I of course have no 
>> problem if you only want to ride bikes with ,46.5 chainstays (a couple of 
>> my vintage mt. bikes would not make the cut), but in a discussion about 
>> long chainstays on a site devoted to a designer who champions this design 
>> element, and has written extensively as to why, it would be good to get 
>> your input other than because you believe or think something.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Jason Fuller

I think it was pretty clear based on context that 465mm is my approximate / 
estimated "upper limit" based on the equilibrium of the various trade-offs. 
I also prefaced that this is for an "all rounder" type bike specifically, 
and that it's approximate because there are a lot of other geometry / build 
factors that come into play, such as BB height, seat tube angle, etc. 

It's based on my experience over 30 years of being a bike nerd and owning 
more bikes than I can count, although my experience on long-stay bikes is a 
shorter list.  I don't see any pay-off after ~46cm stays - it's as stable 
as I could want, as comfortable as I could expect, and going longer makes 
it less maneuverable and does tend to feel more sluggish (not scientific, 
but you can feel it, and that's more important IMO)

On Friday, 31 January 2020 13:55:51 UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>
> Again, why do you believe this? Why do you pick 46.5? I ask because I find 
> it puzzling that these kinds of statements get made but with no explanation 
> as to why, not even anecdotal experiences. I of course have no problem if 
> you only want to ride bikes with ,46.5 chainstays (a couple of my vintage 
> mt. bikes would not make the cut), but in a discussion about long 
> chainstays on a site devoted to a designer who champions this design 
> element, and has written extensively as to why, it would be good to get 
> your input other than because you believe or think something.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Joe Bernard

Party on, Garth 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

I agree with all of this. Stays can be too short. I was just wondering at what 
point they become too long. 

I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various other 
touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter stays. 
Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to feel boat-y to me, I 
don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no benefit beyond that 
length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels perfect. To me. 
Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames with longer 
stays didn’t change my mind.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

me
I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various 
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter 
stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to feel boat-y to me, 
I don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no benefit beyond that 
length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels perfect. To me. 
Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames with longer 
stays didn’t change my mind.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various 
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, not touring, etc, I 
prefer shorter stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to 
feel boat-y to me, I don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no 
benefit beyond that length. In medium frames, for all around use, 440-450 feels 
perfect. To me. Maybe it’s simply what I am used to. In any case, riding frames 
with longer stays didn’t change my mind. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Garth



No existence existing exists in a vacuum, a-part-from or other than 
"Existence Itself" .  

Indivisibility 

A bicycle or any identification/identity does not and cannot exist 
independently from the Life in/as which Existences Exist-ness Exists. 

 "Existence Itself" is All there/that Exists. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Mark Roland

Again, why do you believe this? Why do you pick 46.5? I ask because I find 
it puzzling that these kinds of statements get made but with no explanation 
as to why, not even anecdotal experiences. I of course have no problem if 
you only want to ride bikes with ,46.5 chainstays (a couple of my vintage 
mt. bikes would not make the cut), but in a discussion about long 
chainstays on a site devoted to a designer who champions this design 
element, and has written extensively as to why, it would be good to get 
your input other than because you believe or think something.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:40:12 PM UTC-5, Jason Fuller wrote:
>
> W i also believe that this happy middle ground does not mean 50cm+ 
> chainstays, unless you're tall. For someone my size (5'9"), I think 
> anything over about 465mm would be past the point of equilibrium for an 
> "all rounder" bike, though that number is dependent on a lot of factors and 
> I only understand a fraction of them. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Mark Roland

You're "not a fan" because why? Which extra long bikes do you have 
experience with? What was wrong with the handling (not being able to pop 
wheelies notwithstanding)? Just curious.


On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 3:06:26 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of extra long bikes, of which 
> I am not a fan for general use — obviously cargo bikes need to be extra 
> long — but a lot of other people seem to like it, or at least aren’t 
> bothered by it, so there we are. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-31 Thread Jason Fuller

While the longer stays do create a longer moment arm, they also facilitate 
better load sharing between front and rear wheels so that's bound to help, 
as well as the flex characteristics of the frame could distribute the 
stresses better - nothing we can prove without a good FEA model, but fun to 
postulate. 

My position is this:  most people believe they want shorter chainstays than 
they actually want. there is a longstanding believe that the shorter the 
chainstays, the faster and more fun the bike will feel. But the feeling of 
being properly centered between the wheels, and a moderately longer 
wheelbase, is actually a better combination of fun, comfort, safety, and 
speed for most riders.  i also believe that this happy middle ground does 
not mean 50cm+ chainstays, unless you're tall. For someone my size (5'9"), 
I think anything over about 465mm would be past the point of equilibrium 
for an "all rounder" bike, though that number is dependent on a lot of 
factors and I only understand a fraction of them. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of extra long bikes, of which I am 
not a fan for general use — obviously cargo bikes need to be extra long — but a 
lot of other people seem to like it, or at least aren’t bothered by it, so 
there we are. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-30 Thread S

I don't need convincing -- I already have two Rivendells, albeit older 
models with shorter chain stays. I know, too, that of course you can 
calculate the stresses, but the raw numbers tell only part of the story. 
Certainly, we know that frames such as the Gus Boots are more than strong 
enough, because they have passed the toughest mountain bike frame tests. 
What I am curious about has more to do with things such as drive train 
efficiency, rider feel, and frame longevity, all of which can be hard to 
measure, at least initially. I recognize there isn't going to be a pat 
answer that someone here can give. I was just thinking out loud, wondering 
where the practical limits lie, at what point performance starts to be 
compromised, when the drawbacks begin to outweigh the benefits. 

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 5:43:25 PM UTC-8, James Valiensi wrote:
>
> For the Engineer - the bike frame is a simple truss - one can calculate 
> the defection. 
> But don’t waste you time over thinking a Rivendell - just ride one and 
> you’ll be sold.
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 5:21 PM, S > wrote:
>
> From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super 
> long chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly 
> better acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from 
> the drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the 
> highest stresses in a frame are in the BB area, specifically in the area 
> where the right chainstay enters the BB. By lengthening the stay, you are 
> in effect creating a longer lever and potentially increasing the stress, 
> more so over rough ground where the rider is bouncing up and down on the 
> bike.   
>
> On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
>> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
>> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up 
>> in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. 
>> People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a 
>> dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
>>
>> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know 
>> this since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the 
>> color of paint that it has. ) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve 
>> known and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
>> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
>>
>> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on 
>> Reddit. It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most 
>> pressing questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and 
>> over again long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his 
>> opinion. Longer bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The 
>> opposite of twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us 
>> will accept it. 
>>
>> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is 
>> no longer an improvement? 
>>
>> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
>> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
>> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant 
>> - longer was better. 
>>
>> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its 
>> geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was 
>> surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long 
>> wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve 
>> been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have 
>> been lengthened as of late. 
>>
>> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes 
>> are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the 
>> theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they 
>> were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something 
>> to say... 
>>
>> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
>> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
>> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
>> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
>> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you 
>> to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
>> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
>> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
>> the next size down. 
>>
>> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, 
>> Friends. It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-30 Thread James Valiensi

For the Engineer - the bike frame is a simple truss - one can calculate the 
defection. 
But don’t waste you time over thinking a Rivendell - just ride one and you’ll 
be sold.

> On Jan 30, 2020, at 5:21 PM, S  wrote:
> 
> From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super long 
> chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly better 
> acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from the 
> drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the highest 
> stresses in a frame are in the BB area, specifically in the area where the 
> right chainstay enters the BB. By lengthening the stay, you are in effect 
> creating a longer lever and potentially increasing the stress, more so over 
> rough ground where the rider is bouncing up and down on the bike.   
> 
> On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up in 
> several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. People are 
> wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a dealer, we need 
> to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
> 
> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this 
> since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color 
> of paint that it has. ) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known and 
> loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
> 
> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. It 
> was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing questions 
> and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again long 
> wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer bikes 
> are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of twitchy, 
> short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it. 
> 
> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no 
> longer an improvement? 
> 
> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant - 
> longer was better. 
> 
> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its geometry 
> changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was surprised when I 
> had to buy (several) different stems and a new long wheelbase bar for my 
> Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve been frustrated. If I 
> understand correctly, several Rivendell models have been lengthened as of 
> late. 
> 
> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes are 
> better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the theory, 
> what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they were 
> already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something to 
> say... 
> 
> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you to 
> park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
> the next size down. 
> 
> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. It 
> would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of 
> inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and informative 
> chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, maybe Rivendell 
> will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting expectations, 
> maybe there will be changes to future bikes. 
> 
> I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket on 
> the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship! 
> Leah 
> 
> 
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
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>  
>

[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-30 Thread S

>From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super 
long chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly 
better acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from 
the drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the 
highest stresses in a frame are in the BB area, specifically in the area 
where the right chainstay enters the BB. By lengthening the stay, you are 
in effect creating a longer lever and potentially increasing the stress, 
more so over rough ground where the rider is bouncing up and down on the 
bike.   

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up 
> in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. 
> People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a 
> dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
>
> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this 
> since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color 
> of paint that it has. ) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known 
> and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
>
> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. 
> It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing 
> questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again 
> long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer 
> bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of 
> twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it. 
>
> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no 
> longer an improvement? 
>
> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant 
> - longer was better. 
>
> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its 
> geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was 
> surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long 
> wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve 
> been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have 
> been lengthened as of late. 
>
> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes 
> are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the 
> theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they 
> were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something 
> to say... 
>
> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you 
> to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
> the next size down. 
>
> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. 
> It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of 
> inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and 
> informative chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, 
> maybe Rivendell will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting 
> expectations, maybe there will be changes to future bikes. 
>
> I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket 
> on the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship! 
> Leah 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Leah Peterson

Yankeebird,

I reread your post and it’s uncanny. My exact situation. I wondered if I was 
being too extreme in wanting to be quite upright, but you want the same thing, 
and that’s good news to me. Even better news is that we can now accomplish it. 
If you don’t like the stem Mark found for you, there is yet another option on 
The Stem Chronicles thread. 

Garth found us this: 
https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.somafabshop.com%2Fshop%2Fproduct%2Fnitto-stem-technomic-quill-280mm-xl-25-4mm-4096%3Fcategory%3D817=D=1=AFQjCNH8cGAwC8gyfdiOxsbmQqbWoXy0ow

Rivendell can get it for you from Soma. I got one ordered yesterday. Will 
didn’t know the stem existed and was really surprised to see this link. 

Let us know what you do and how it turns out - I am planning for a new Cheviot 
this spring and then I will have the same pair of bikes as you do - and 
probably set up very similarly. Your desires for your bike setups mirror mine 
to the point it is, as I said, uncanny. 

Sent from my iPad

>> On Jan 25, 2020, at 2:40 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
> around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end settled 
> on a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 
> 2cm too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
> 
> Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
> Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Yankeebird

So that's the 8cm DD but 2cm taller... That should fix this perfect! Nice! 

All my quills on the Clem have been put to minimum insert, both for height and 
to reduce the effective reach. Again this is not a problem on my Cheviot, which 
is perfect with an 11cm "7" stem. The front end getting stretched forward has 
made an upright bike into a less than upright bike... For me, at least. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Mark Roland

https://www.modernbike.com/nitto-mt-10-long-quill-stem-25.4-35d-x-80-silver

I linked to this over on the Stem Chronicles thread. It's the same stem you 
have and find to be 2cm too short. Except this one is...2cm shorter. Also 
it should be remembered that because of the heat tube angle, as you raise 
it, the stem effectively becomes shorter. So the 8cm reach on this stem can 
have the same effective reach as a 50mm  "7" tallux that doesn't have as 
much overall height as the dirt drop (quill plus the upward angle of the dd 
itself).

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 5:40:37 AM UTC-5, Yankeebird wrote:... a 
10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 2cm 
too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Garth


Try reversing your Tallux or DD stems Yankeebird.  Let doubt doubt and do 
do. 


On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 5:40:37 AM UTC-5, Yankeebird wrote:
>
> Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
> around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end 
> settled on a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height 
> but about 2cm too far forward, and it's maxed out. 
>
> Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
> Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-25 Thread Yankeebird

Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying 
around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end settled on 
a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 2cm 
too far forward, and it's maxed out. 

Please refer to my Jan15th post in this thread for the larger back story. 
Apologies for brevity, I'm a bit tight on time this morning!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-24 Thread Leah Peterson

Sorry, Yankee, I misunderstood that. Let me try again: Did you try a 50 stem on 
a Clem L? What size frame? And how did it feel to you? A little too low? A 
lot???

I always thought I liked my bars higher and closer than most, but after some of 
the responses, I see I may be in good company...
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> 
> It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the 
> height of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other 
> thread is the way to go.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-24 Thread Leah Peterson

Yankeebird, how can you tell that the 50 Technomic/Tallux would be too low? I 
need to know these things!

Incidentally, I agree that it is (but only because I’ve ridden with it) and I 
did order the longer stem. Riv can get it, if anyone is interested.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:52 AM, Yankeebird  wrote:
> 
> It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the 
> height of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other 
> thread is the way to go.
> 
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-24 Thread Yankeebird

It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the height 
of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other thread is 
the way to go.

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-23 Thread aeroperf


They wear funny outfits and speak with funny accents, but the frame builder 
knows his stuff and this is worth 17 minutes of your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtC4Rq_ScM


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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-23 Thread Joe Bernard

Dats a long bike!!!

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-23 Thread masmojo

I can't imagine having a large!?


浪

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-15 Thread tc

You can get a 5cm reach Tallux  from Riv and Ben’s cycle. But check the shaft 
height. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-15 Thread Yankeebird

Long time listener first time caller.

There is a lot of focus here in regards to the chainstays, but a lot of the
problems Leah describes in terms of finding a stem/handle bar that work is
because the '19 Clem L was stretched going forward in the cockpit. I have
also had some issues getting my Clem L sorted out.

Me: PBH 91+
I have a 60cm Cheviot with an 11cm stem paired with a Bosco bar. It fits
like the bike was custom built for me. Amazing. I think I adjusted the stem
up and down three times and haven't changed it since. Incredible fit,
incredible bike. It is the bike I have always wanted in my life. Perfect in
every way. It trucks, it corners, it is like I am riding on rails.

So I got a 59cm Clem L last summer for some rougher rocky road riding and
the desire to maybe drop the bike off in less than desirable places. Again
I went with an 11cm stem with Bosco and it was reaching-city. They were way
ahead. I kept shortening the stem until I was down on the 8cm Dirt Drop
which has something like a 6.5cm reach and that was good, but I now I
couldn't get the bar high enough. (I am going for "joyously upright" on
this bicycle). So over to the 10cm Dirt Drop I went (I can't remember, the
10 reaches forward 7.5cm?) and now I have the height where I want it but,
boy I would love that bar to come back 2 more cm. The Billie bar doesn't
have the rise the Bosco does, so it'll come back to me but won't be high
enough.

Maybe I have a lightly longer torso than average with little T-Rex arms or
something, but the difference in the two bicycles IMO, is pretty
significant, especially since the Clem L is the super-duper upright one.

I hope going ahead the cockpits are not stretched forward, especially with
the new Cheviot. I love the longer chainstays, full stop, I have no quibble
with longer chainstays. Yes, I did some research to get a good roof rack
for the longer bike, but the ride is totally worth the effort. The reason
I'm riding Rivendells is so I don't have to reach forward. Let's keep the
cockpits within reach, literally.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread lconley

I have kind of standardized on the Brooks B68. I have had little trouble 
buying NOS Brooks B68 saddles on eBay. I have 2 aged versions - brown with 
laces (already broken in out of the box - very comfortable), 1 B68S (black, 
shorter version with chromed rails and laces - going on the Wife's Betty) 
and 3 or 4 standard black models. The B68S came with multiple laces in 
several colors, so: red lace for the Betty, blue lace for the Frank Jones 
Sr., and green lace for the Bombadil. I have a leather punch, so others may 
get laces also.

I wanted a Honey B68 with chrome rails for my upcoming custom, but no go, 
so I got a black B68 frame from Italy on eBay, had it chromed locally, and 
sent it to Firth and Wilson - they installed a Honey B67 top (identical in 
shape to the B68) with large copper rivets. Took some time and additional 
money, but I love my Brooks B678Frankensaddle.

Laing

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 12:54:40 PM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:

> Leah, sadly it looks as though Brooks has discontinued the B68 & B72 
> saddles.
> B72 was my favorite, but somewhat awkward due to the double saddle rails 
> that required a conventional seat post for the special clamp or an adapter.
> The B68 had no springs, but like many conventional Brooks saddles did 
> require a fairly lengthy break in period.
> I think long term the B17 could work on the Clem L, but caution your 
> sister that Brooks saddles do require breaking in.
> I have a C19 on one bike and it initially feels OK, but everyone who's 
> ridden that bike any time at all says the more you ride it the more 
> uncomfortable it gets. A bit stiff! 
> In my experience with the C17  Allweathers the regular one was almost as 
> comfortable as my B17, but oddly the cut out version was less comfortable. 
> I am not sure if I want to gamble with the C19 Allweathers or not!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread masmojo

Leah, sadly it looks as though Brooks has discontinued the B68 & B72 saddles.
B72 was my favorite, but somewhat awkward due to the double saddle rails that 
required a conventional seat post for the special clamp or an adapter.
The B68 had no springs, but like many conventional Brooks saddles did require a 
fairly lengthy break in period.
I think long term the B17 could work on the Clem L, but caution your sister 
that Brooks saddles do require breaking in.
I have a C19 on one bike and it initially feels OK, but everyone who's ridden 
that bike any time at all says the more you ride it the more uncomfortable it 
gets. A bit stiff! 
In my experience with the C17  Allweathers the regular one was almost as 
comfortable as my B17, but oddly the cut out version was less comfortable. I am 
not sure if I want to gamble with the C19 Allweathers or not!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-14 Thread Mark Roland



[image: CalvinStopThinking.jpg]


On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 11:23:13 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Loaded, indeed! Nice work. 
>
> My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my 
> Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched. 
>
> “THIS BIKE IS WEIRD!!!” she shrieked. 
>
> “That’s your same exact bike,” I said flatly. “Yours is green. Mine is 
> blue. Same bike!” 
>
> Now, she had been riding [stealing] her husband’s Clem L 59 (previous 
> geometry) and did not receive her ‘19 Clem L until September, which meant 
> nearly no time to get acquainted before the snow came. So, she doesn’t know 
> it yet. I told her about this thread and asked her to contribute what she 
> noticed and all she could come up with is “The Clementine is just EASY.” 
>
> So there’s your profound assessment. She’s worse than me and now I have 
> documentation. She did say the blue Clem was good after she got used to it 
> but also helpfully pointed out my inferior B17 saddle. Like this: 
>
> “I hate your saddle! I don’t have this saddle, do I? This better not be my 
> saddle! Because it’s awful. Which one do I have again? Not this one I 
> hope.” 
>
> And so on and so forth. 
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 
>
> > On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:01 AM, masmojo > 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > Loaded  
> > 
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA 
> > 
> > -- 
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>
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>  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-13 Thread Joe Bernard

She is SO your sister, Leah 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-13 Thread Leah Peterson

Loaded, indeed! Nice work.

My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my 
Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched. 

“THIS BIKE IS WEIRD!!!” she shrieked. 

“That’s your same exact bike,” I said flatly. “Yours is green. Mine is blue. 
Same bike!”

Now, she had been riding [stealing] her husband’s Clem L 59 (previous geometry) 
and did not receive her ‘19 Clem L until September, which meant nearly no time 
to get acquainted before the snow came. So, she doesn’t know it yet. I told her 
about this thread and asked her to contribute what she noticed and all she 
could come up with is “The Clementine is just EASY.” 

So there’s your profound assessment. She’s worse than me and now I have 
documentation. She did say the blue Clem was good after she got used to it but 
also helpfully pointed out my inferior B17 saddle. Like this: 

“I hate your saddle! I don’t have this saddle, do I? This better not be my 
saddle! Because it’s awful. Which one do I have again? Not this one I hope.”

And so on and so forth.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2020, at 8:01 AM, masmojo  wrote:
> 
> Loaded 
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA
> 
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-13 Thread masmojo

Loaded 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Aye, John, the R14. Gave the grocery clerk a show by saying, "Sure, I can 
strap it on top", and an encore wen I pulled out me knife to punch a new 
hole in my belt. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 6:43:41 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Hi Both Patricks, 
>
>  Agreed, I keep my 32R Nitto big back rack on my Hunqapillar 24/7, 
> because it handles everything so easily, from huge heavy loads to my 
> minimal cafe load of two heavy d-locks (I admit to being paranoid about 
> bike theft).
>
>  I was just curious as to how Deacon Patrick managed his unexpected 30 
> lbs grocery load on the Quickbeam. Deacon, I'm guessing you're using 
> something like the the Nitto R14 under the big Sackville saddlesack, 
> something like this one:
> [image: Image result for nitto r14]
>
> Thanks,
> John
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread John Phillips

Hi Both Patricks, 

 Agreed, I keep my 32R Nitto big back rack on my Hunqapillar 24/7, 
because it handles everything so easily, from huge heavy loads to my 
minimal cafe load of two heavy d-locks (I admit to being paranoid about 
bike theft).

 I was just curious as to how Deacon Patrick managed his unexpected 30 
lbs grocery load on the Quickbeam. Deacon, I'm guessing you're using 
something like the the Nitto R14 under the big Sackville saddlesack, 
something like this one:
[image: Image result for nitto r14]

Thanks,
John

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Like Patrick of the Moore says, were I to intentionally set up the QB for 
loads of 30-40 lbs, I would go with a full sized rear rack, panniers to get 
the weight as low as possible, and a saddlesack on top. A light camping 
setup for all weathers can be done that way, as well as regular errand 
runs. But the Hunq or GBW handle the same and heavier loads without 
blinking.

With abandon,
Patrick of the Highlands

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:57:01 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> A! Grin. Well, wrong. Grin. I have whatever the saddlesack (large) new 
> equivalent is, on the not-full sized rear rack. I just carry two Irish 
> straps in case of need. I strapped the weight on as tightly as I could atop 
> the saddlesack, that caused the saddlebag, which sticks over the end of the 
> rack, to rub the rear wheel, so I took off my belt, strapped it around the 
> seat tube to hold the saddlesack up/forward.
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:33:41 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>>
>> Hi Patrick, 
>>  I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of 
>> groceries when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight? 
>> Load it on a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how 
>> you end up handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 2:22:13 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done 
>>> it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but 
>>> I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:

 Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?

 John

 On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
> (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
> having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
> question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
> delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
> headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
> discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free 
> up 
> the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
> straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
> anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd 
> taken 
> the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
> Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
> it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>


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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

A! Grin. Well, wrong. Grin. I have whatever the saddlesack (large) new 
equivalent is, on the not-full sized rear rack. I just carry two Irish 
straps in case of need. I strapped the weight on as tightly as I could atop 
the saddlesack, that caused the saddlebag, which sticks over the end of the 
rack, to rub the rear wheel, so I took off my belt, strapped it around the 
seat tube to hold the saddlesack up/forward.

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:33:41 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Hi Patrick, 
>  I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of 
> groceries when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight? 
> Load it on a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how 
> you end up handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?
>
> John
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 2:22:13 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done 
>> it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but 
>> I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>>>
>>> Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
 (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
 having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
 question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
 delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
 headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
 discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free 
 up 
 the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
 straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
 anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd 
 taken 
 the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
 Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
 it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread Patrick Moore

John: FWIW, I have very often carried 30 lb and more -- record, weighed,
was 45 lb -- in rear panniers on light steel frames with stiff racks; racks
including either the wonderfully stiff but only 11 oz Tubus Fly, or my
various Chauncey Matthews customs. Not for long distances; =/< 10 miles;
but securely and without intolerable frame flex drama. In fact, the best
rear load carrier I've owned was a quite-light, *tout-531,* early '70s road
bike with standard gauge tubing; it was on this one that I grunted 45 lb up
a steep hill at cadences as low as 4 mph/20 rpm;(recall the "4" flickering
on my computer); other bikes, including the Roads and the Ram, with stiffer
tubing, haven't handled rear loads over 30 lb as well.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 3:33 PM John Phillips  wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>  I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of
> groceries when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight?
> Load it on a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how
> you end up handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?
>
> John
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 2:22:13 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done
>> it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but
>> I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>>>
>>> Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike
 (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of
 having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the
 question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a
 delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph
 headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery,
 discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up
 the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish
 straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only
 anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken
 the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing.
 Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier
 it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

>>> --
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> 
> .
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread John Phillips

Hi Patrick, 
 I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of groceries 
when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight? Load it on 
a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how you end up 
handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?

John

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 2:22:13 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done 
> it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but 
> I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>>
>> Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
>>> (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
>>> having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
>>> question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
>>> delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
>>> headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
>>> discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up 
>>> the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
>>> straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
>>> anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken 
>>> the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
>>> Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
>>> it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done 
it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but 
I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
>
> John
>
> On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
>> (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
>> having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
>> question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
>> delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
>> headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
>> discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up 
>> the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
>> straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
>> anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken 
>> the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
>> Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
>> it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread John Phillips

Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?

John

On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
> (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
> having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
> question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
> delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
> headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
> discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up 
> the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
> straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
> anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken 
> the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
> Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
> it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-12 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike 
(Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of 
having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the 
question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a 
delight to hop on the QB and feel how spritely it is, ride into a 30 mph 
headwind at 16˚F (what's that make the windchill?), get to the grocery, 
discover bulk orders of this and that came in, could I take them to free up 
the fridge space? A few straps and my belt later (I only carry two Irish 
straps on the QB), and home I came with 30 lbs of groceries, having only 
anticipated half a pound. Grin. Completely different ride than if I'd taken 
the Hunqapillar or GBW, and I still got done what ended up needing doing. 
Grin. The more I switch between the long and short wheelbases, the easier 
it is and the more I appreciate each for the amazing machine it is.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-11 Thread Garth



As I recall the "expanded geometry" with it's sloping TT was about fitting 
a broader range of bodies with fewer size offerings. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-11 Thread Mark Roland

I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think "getting bars up higher" 
is/was the only reason Rivendell leans in the direction of a bigger frame. 
>From my experience, riding bicycles that are the short side of "French 
Fit", most other factors being close to equal, there is more a feeling of 
being "in" the bike, vs. more "perched" on a bicycle with smaller overall 
frame dimensions for one's size. A sloped top tube in the Riv design both 
allows for a higher head tube point (less saddle to bar drop) and also for 
more top tube clearance (allowing a rider to be fit on a larger overall 
frame size). Although frankly, from what I can tell of others' attempts, 
parsing the Riv geo charts for fit is an arcane science/art form;^)


On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yes, but I'm not explaining why it would still make sense if they say it, 
> I'm explaining that it's an old theory which doesn't hold up well anymore. 
> Even if they still say it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

I had a bronzey green Clem. If Leah thinks the blue shimmers like the sun is 
pouring throught it, wait til she sees THAT! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Mark Roland

Yes. In fact the business I work for makes color matching booths used by 
manufacturers to check color under various light qualities. The 
greeny-bronze is amazing in person. It can go from a classic three-speed 
green to a more bronzey green to that almost yellow lime green in the sun.

I'm glad you seem to be getting in sync with the 2019 version of the 
Clementine. Sunday is supposed to be rainy here, so maybe I'll do a little 
wheel building and some wrenching with my little guy. I would like to get 
mine on the road in the next month or so.

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 2:39:05 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Can you believe that brown Clem is same color as your green Clem? It’s 
> really a cool effect.
>
> As of right now, I’m pretty happy with my Clem. I went out again last 
> night, and after one final saddle adjustment, I think I’ve got my Clem 
> pretty well dialed. I had a very happy commute with my sons this morning, 
> and I am now deciding the bike is perfect. I am excited to know what the 
> new Cheviot is going to be like. Hopefully a little shorter and lighter. 
> Whatever it is, I’m sure we’ll be discussing it...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> caution, rambling reply ahead, thoughts I've had that were triggered by 
> this thread. Don't Thread On Me.
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020  Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> *Mark Roland - you might be our best hope here. When your 2019 52 Clem L 
> is built, you’ll have it to compare to the 2015 OC. Also, what is taking so 
> long? How can you treat us this way? We need answers. MY CLOTHES ARE GOING 
> OUT OF STYLE OVER HERE MARK HURRY UP. *
>
> First of all, we know your clothes won't go out of style because we can 
> see your photos of you and Betz from what, 7 years ago? Perfectly stylish 
> as of 3 minutes ago. And while I appreciate the confidence, I don't think 
> my experience will directly translate to help you figure this out. And 
> sorry, but you are now a more experienced cyclist than 98.7 percent of all 
> U.S. citizens. More Americans probably know where Iran is on a map (about 
> 28 percent) than know where a chainstay is on a bicycle. At this point your 
> observations are completely valid and certainly as useful as mine--much 
> more so of course to your particulars. You've trusted them and they've 
> gotten you here, a good place to be! 
>
> Also, I'm not all that good at this bike vs. that bike, for several 
> reasons.
>
> The main one is, I've only ridden a few bikes that I just could not like, 
> or judge better or worse than the next. Part of this is having a feel for 
> what will work beforehand, but part of it is that I am more of the idea 
> that, as the software part of the equation, it's kinda our job, assuming 
> proportions not way out of the means, to fit the hardware.
>
> Yes, there are slack bikes, and tight bikes, heavier bikes, lighter, 
> planing bikes, bikes that track and bikes that twitch, bikes with long 
> stays and bikes with short stays, bikes with high trail and bikes with low. 
> But all these parameters are actually within a fairly narrow range as well, 
> and all add up to Bicycle. Sure, I notice differences among my bicycles, 
> even ones that are kinda close on paper. And as some have mentioned, I like 
> the one I am on best. But I'm genuinely happy on any of them, and I suspect 
> I'll be happy on my Clem L. Especially because it will look so pretty (I'm 
> very superficial about my bicycles.)
>
> I don't say all this in some kind of deep zen way, just as a fact about me 
> and bikes. I get that others are more particular, that's cool. As I said in 
> an earlier post on this thread, I did not have a problem with the handling 
> on my Big Dummy, which had 80+cm chainstays. I did park it in the hall 
> downstairs, as at the time i owned it, I was living in a 3-story walk-up 
> with the last flight being very very narrow and steep.
>
> 
>
> 
>
> Big Dummy with Original Clementine
>
> Grant is a bicycle designer. His job is to design bicycles. The designs go 
> in a certain direction based on his riding, his ideas of what bikes are and 
> what they can be, etc. He sells them to people who know about them. I am 
> sure he is just fine knowing that people ride non-Rivendell bicycles with 
> "short"  chainstays. Also, to make money, you need to have differentiation. 
> And as consumers, in product areas where we have more than a passing 
> interest, we like to have opinions, and preferences, and sometimes whole 
> philosophies regarding various stuff. I like mostly old bikes, rim brakes, 
> leather saddles, wide tires, steel.  (All of these things, by the way, kept 
> alive and actively promoted by Rivendell, even when it wasn't "cool.")
>
> As far as 54.5cm vs. 52cm chainstays. If there were no bicycles in the 
> world, and then suddenly everyone in the world was issued a Clem L that fit 
> them, and half got chainstays an inch

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Someone's been reading this thread 

https://www.rivbike.com/products/long-chain

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

Yes, but I'm not explaining why it would still make sense if they say it, I'm 
explaining that it's an old theory which doesn't hold up well anymore. Even if 
they still say it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

2020-01-10 Thread Mark Roland

Yes, but on the other hand, both Will and Grant steered me toward a 59 Clem 
L. I am 5'10 (or at least I was a while back). They did not insist and 
immediately dropped it when I described my preference, but that was the 
predisposition. I believe my proportions are similar to Grant's and he 
rides a 59 in both Clem and Cheviot. And I was slightly tempted, but due to 
apartment living, and not loving 700c wheels much above 40mm, I went with, 
and stuck with the 52.

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 4:03:18 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Who likes wrenches? I do, so I shall throw one in the conversation! Y'all 
> are correct that "get the biggest frame you can fit" was/is a Riv mantra 
> about getting your bars up high where they belong, but it originated during 
> the early days when Rivs still had mostly-level toptubes and sourcing tall 
> quill stems was still in its infancy. This was also a time when drops and 
> Moustache Bars were being spec'd on a lot of their frames. 
>
> Today all-but-Roadeo have upsloping TTs, crazy-tall headtubes and usually 
> show up at your door with a tall bar on a tall stem. I can ride a 52cm Clem 
> well enough, but my 45cm version with HiRiser stem and Boscos has all the 
> bar height I can stand. So there ya go. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?